Episode 12: How Does this get Better?

In the final episode of Season 2, I ask a simple but difficult question: how do things get better?

After a season spent exploring division, distrust, and frustration, I turned to my guests to ask what a path forward might actually look like — through the anger, bitterness, and judgment that so often define our politics.

Their answers were thoughtful. At times, surprising. And not always easy.

The question for Season 3 is whether any of us are willing to follow through.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In a country where everyone seems angry, where accusation and blame are the order of the day, when rage is rewarded, can things get better?

SPEAKER_09 0:10

I think it's about being heard.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Men and women everywhere want to be acknowledged.

SPEAKER_11 0:18

I maintain that if somebody feels heard, then you're getting somewhere.

SPEAKER_10 0:24

Respect is is critical. We should just learn to tolerate and accept.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

In the previous episode, I asked my guests if they think Americans even want the state of the nation to improve, or if there's actually a sense that people maybe don't want things to get better and instead would rather have their political tribe, their political team, just win. In this episode, my guests and I explore if people do want things to get better, how exactly would that happen? How can the American public, the e's and the me's of the world, how can we make things better? My guests had some sincerely thoughtful reactions that I thought displayed some serious wisdom. Their thoughts centered on issues like simply being heard, respect for others, and surprise, surprise, trying not to insult people. On the one hand, some of their responses might seem obvious, but on the other, in the world we live in, such perspectives are often anything but obvious.

SPEAKER_09 1:30

I think it's about being heard. I I'm honest with you. I think if people feel like someone is listening to them, that they can speak their truth, they can be understood, and that informs the decisions that policymakers make. I think that's gonna help. And I think that's why Donald Trump really tapped into that populism when he was running for office. He really tapped into that unhappy working class mentality that the Democrats hadn't tapped into. They did not tap into this, and but he was tapping into it to a group that did not they wanted to be heard, and he was listening to them and saying things that they wanted him to say.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Uh the many political victories I've been blessed with and played a part in David. What I think you might have some insight on this. I think at the core, men and women everywhere want to be acknowledged that they exist.

SPEAKER_11 2:58

I maintain that if somebody feels heard, then you're getting somewhere. And uh legislators have a hard time asking the questions. They're used to answering the questions, having people ask them the questions. And for a legislator to ask a question indicates to me that they want to know what I'm thinking. Then I feel heard. I put my voice out there, even if everybody else's voice that they have to represent goes a different direction, it's stuck there.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

And so being able to sit and listen to people is an art that we have lost, unfortunately, especially in the day of uh social media. Um and we can glean a lot from people uh just by listening to their stories. And I think that that also uh goes well with the uh the the worth that we have as human beings, because I think everybody feels like they feel valued when they are listened to.

SPEAKER_07 4:13

When a person really values me and what what I believe, they value my perception, my perspective. And they acknowledge me for who I am, respect me, and they and they say, you know, I just thank you for being who you are, and you've got some pretty valid points that I hadn't thought of before. I hadn't considered that. And I'd like to, I'd like to know more. Tell me more about that. You know, when someone treats me that way, I start to soften up. When that happens, that's it. There's a thaw. Like, okay, maybe maybe I do need to work with this person or listen to them. That's where the change is at. And that does happen.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

The degree to which people seriously value just being heard cannot be understated. And I especially like Demetra's perspective that when she simply feels like somebody takes her seriously, she can be more open. She can be more likely to work with someone else, let the walls come down a bit. The next issue Guest raised was the importance of respect.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

I think respect is a great uh uh is a great example of how do you have a community when your community doesn't respect each other. You're gonna be the Hatfields and the McCoys. We all have an opinion. It doesn't make it right or wrong in the universal view of things. More than likely, we're more partially right and therefore partially wrong, but respect is is critical.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

And uh uh I I think if I think if we go into it with an open mind, um, and we go into uh these discussions or debates, however you want to describe them, with the idea that okay, I'm gonna start with the assumption that you're not stupid. I'm gonna start with the assumption that you're not nefarious, I'm gonna start with the assumption that you're not power hungry, that are stuff like that. I'll start with that assumption. Now, I may enter into the discussion and find out you actually are nefarious, but okay. But I think we're gonna find out that really uh there aren't that many people on the other side who are that way. Uh I can still say they're wrong. That's okay. They're wrong, but that does not stop that being wrong is not the same, is is not the same thing as being nefarious or being criminal.

SPEAKER_10 6:56

It's it's um they're you know, so you just have to understand that you know they're in a different place than you, and and that's okay. It's uh we still have to live together and work together and and be a country together. And so it's uh we we should just learn to tolerate and accept.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Unsurprisingly, people across the right, left, and center spoke about the value of being respected. I'd like to think this is obvious, but in this world it's just not. In so many ways, it feels like these kinds of small gestures like listening, respect, they just go a long way in softening some of our problem sets. The third topic my guest spoke about is related to the first two, but in some ways is sort of a mirror image. Not shaming people, not insulting people, not ripping into people.

SPEAKER_05 8:05

Uh, you know, it just makes people dig in deeper. And so that perspective where we are unable to change or unable to see uh any sort of value in someone else's argument, I I I don't know, it's frustrating. And I do feel like there's a lot more of that, and it feels like a lot of it's because we need to win, you know, we need to be on the side of right.

SPEAKER_06 8:31

I have some friends that are like that that will absolutely not hear me out whatsoever. Um, but then I have one or two that are like me that will sit down and have a conversation and they will say, I'm I hear you and I kind of get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that I agree with you. And I'm like, well, that's fine. We can have this conversation, you know. We can res I have my um like a man that I really respected and honored as an older gentleman in my life said, agree to disagree, but don't be disagreeable. I've kind of lived by that. Um we can disagree, but we don't have to be ugly to each other. We don't have to be hateful. I mean, if we stumped a lot of the bickering, we could sit down and have a conversation and come up with ideas and brainstorm about better ways to do to fix things. But we have to be willing to have the conversation, first of all. Second of all, we have to agree to be respectful about it. And I'm gonna, I would always show respect to that other person. I'm never going to belittle somebody or diminish their life experience or why they feel it feel the way they do or the way they believe that they do. There, I'm not, I'd never do it. I expect the same in return, though. I expect the same. And um, as long as we can meet on those grounds, I think a lot of things would change.

SPEAKER_11 10:06

As a society, we have become more vocal in um declaring other people wrong or evil, or um even in an attempt at humor, you know, calling names or debasing them in some way. And that has always really irritated me.

SPEAKER_12 10:29

That we can still disagree without um you familiar with the term ad hominem? Yeah, yeah, okay. Without name calling. Okay, and that's a that you know, that's a typical a lot of people, you know, as soon as I don't have an argument to come back for your last statement. Well, you're just a SOB, you know, you're just a poor, very, very loud, you know, whatever, no. That doesn't do anything to the to the conversation either. Okay, I can't answer that. Um, I still think my way is right. I can't exactly explain why, but in my heart, I think I'm right. And I I I I reject what you're saying. Okay, that's cool. I didn't expect to change your mind. I want now you know where I'm at and how I got here.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

I love what Jeff said there. I've never been in a situation where someone insulted me and shamed me, and then I went, wow, you totally shamed me, and now I'm gonna change my mind. Folks, that sort of sums up a lot of it. Like I said earlier, we live in this world where anger, insult, rage, and shame are rewarded, with people ripping into each other, especially on digital media, and all the while wondering why the nation seems to be going straight to hell. And my friends, I'm guilty of this too. I judge members, we all judge members of some invisible other tribe, all while wondering why they're so judgmental of us. If we listen a bit more to the folks in this episode, I think the nation would be better off. I'm gonna end this with a story from Jeff that sort of illustrates the entirety of this episode of one example from his time in Sri Lanka.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Listen, and it seems so simple, but it's not, it's hard. Um, and that involves asking questions without trying to counteract responses, but genuine questions. When we for graduate school spent three months in Sri Lanka, we were training um small uh NGOs over there in working with their communities. And Sri Lanka, it was right as their civil war was starting back up, and you know, fascinating time to be there, a predominantly Buddhist country, um, smaller uh Muslim minority, and then an incredibly small Christian minority um within that too. And one of the groups we were working with was a Christian church group, and um they really wanted to know how do we change, you know, the people in our community, like how do we change their minds and how do we um convince them that they're wrong and all of this stuff. And the lesson we taught over and over was listen to them, genuinely listen, not listen and then respond, not listen and then argue, not listen to you know, figure out how I can uh win, but listen to get to know this person. And um, how it worked out was we were traveling around the country a few days here, a few days there, and we repeated ourselves several times. But we did this the first time with this group, and we came back a couple of weeks later to the same group, and one of the women was so excited. She and her neighbor had been, I don't know, enemies for years, like argued about everything, just did not like each other. They're from different religions, they're, you know, whatever. Um, they, you know, she was like, she's just so stubborn, all this stuff. And she said, I made it a goal to go and listen to her and and just to ask about life. And there was something going on with her kids and health and stuff. And it became something where she said, I knew more about her through the end of that conversation than I did in several years of you know living by her and arguing with her, and they became friends. Um, I don't know that anyone changed their religion or their mindset or whatever, but it bridged that divide where they looked at it and said, on the surface, we should be divided at least, if not enemies. But listening and being genuinely interested in someone and finding out more about them ended with them being friends. Um, and so it took some of those typical divisions that are on the surface, and it it got rid of them in a way. I mean, they're still there, but they realized maybe those aren't as powerful as we think we are. Um, I mean, that's that's my big challenge for myself, too. And my encouragement is I I work with people all the time that have different views. I um, you know, interact with people in the community that have different views. And even within my own family, there's different views, you know, whether that's my immediate family, my extended family, like there's a wide variety of perspectives, but I want to understand people and get back to that core value I have of them as a human and someone in the image of God. And there's a reason they have their perspective. Maybe it's pain, maybe it's not, maybe it's privilege, maybe it's not, maybe it's some experience they've had or where they've lived or what they ate for dinner last night. I don't know. Uh, but as long as I make assumptions about it, I'm still not gonna know unless I take the time to listen.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

This wraps up season two of Nobody's Side. I've continued to adore making this show. I've loved speaking with the folks that I've gotten to interview. I've enjoyed learning from all the folks that I've spoken with. This season, in a lot of ways, was gloomier than I'd expected. And I expect to see more gloom as I interview more folks. In a sense, as I continue to make this show, I'm learning maybe more than anybody else. But I hope you're enjoying it. I hope you're learning too, and I hope you're finding this as valuable as I am. My name is David Combs. This is Nobody's Side. See you in the next season.