Bitcoin Latam Report
Hosted by Maciej Cepnik, a Canadian who moved to Mexico and is a Bitcoin entrepreneur, this show features English-language interviews with Bitcoin founders, builders, and operators across the entire Latin American region. From Mexico City to Buenos Aires, we dig into how Bitcoin is used for payments, remittances, mining, and regulation, along with the hard lessons, tactics, and opportunities shaping the LatAm ecosystem.
Bitcoin Latam Report
#EP 18 - Let the SATS Flow with Metamick, CEO and Co-Founder of Geyser
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of The Bitcoin Latam Report, I sit down with MetaMick, co-founder of Geyser, a Bitcoin crowdfunding platform helping Bitcoin builders, educators, creators and circular economies raise funds with Bitcoin.
We discuss how Geyser started, the challenges of building a non-custodial Bitcoin platform, why crowdfunding matters for grassroots adoption, and how Bitcoin can empower communities from the bottom up.
We also delve into circular economies, merchant adoption, the “let the sats flow” philosophy, Geyser’s All or Nothing campaigns, its business model, the Latin America Impact Fund, and why Latin America is such an important region for Bitcoin adoption.
If you’re building a Bitcoin project, running a community, creating educational content, or are interested in Bitcoin adoption in Latin America, this conversation is for you.
Timestamps:
01:09 — MetaMick’s Bitcoin story
03:56 — Why Geyser was created
09:30 — Top-down vs bottom-up Bitcoin adoption
12:51 — Circular economies and Bitcoin Beach
17:14 — Merchant adoption and real-world Bitcoin usage
21:12 — Why sats need to flow
26:16 — Building Geyser and the challenges of non-custodial Bitcoin products
33:28 — All or Nothing campaigns and Paco de la India
39:03 — How Geyser helps projects grow
42:16 — Geyser’s business model
48:28 — Bitcoin projects in Latin America
51:58 — The Latin America Impact Fund
01:00:44 — Bitcoin volatility and donations
01:03:03 — Fiat, stablecoins and staying Bitcoin-first
01:10:00 — Successful projects on Geyser
01:14:06 — What’s next for Geyser
Follow Geyser on X: @geyserfund
Support or Start your own Bitcoin crowdfunding project: geyser.fund
Follow Maciej Cepnik on X: @CepnikMaciej
Follow Aureo on X: @AureoBitcoin
Buy or Sell Bitcoin in Mexico: aureobitcoin.com
Follow The Bitcoin Latam Report for more conversations with Bitcoin builders, entrepreneurs and communities across Latin America.
Welcome to the Bitcoin LATAM Report, where I interview entrepreneurs and Bitcoiners all over the world about Bitcoin and Latam. I think that today we're going to have a great conversation with my friend Meta Mick, a fellow entrepreneur and also uh Bitcoiner. He's the founder and CEO of Geyser Fund, which is a crowdfounding platform that you can crowdfund a lot of different projects with Bitcoin. It's a fascinating project. So welcome, Meta Mick. It's a pleasure to have you. Awesome, man.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. A pleasure to be here. Just also to clarify, co-founder of Geyser with Stalis as well. Yeah, just important to um give calls. Yeah, super excuse, get going. Yeah, sorry about that.
SPEAKER_01I need to also interview Stalis. Yes. And he's a Matam, so he's gonna have a lot to say as well, I'm sure. Absolutely. So, you know, it's a little bit boring way to start a Bitcoin podcast, but for the people that don't know you, just uh if you can tell uh a little bit your Bitcoin story just so people have a good idea of what kind of Bitcoiner you are, you know, why are you doing this, why you were crazy enough to start a Bitcoin startup.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. The question I I'd say I'm a kind of uh uh eclectic, kind of maybe a bit heterodox Bitcoiner, and that, you know, I'm not I'm not particularly not don't come from a super technical background, but I I think my key points of convergence towards Bitcoin is essentially the some degree of the complexity and like that that Bitcoin is. It kind of um drew me into it. The the other point of interest um that comes to Bitcoin is in the kind of um empowerment that enables kind of democratizing of power towards uh the individuals, uh towards individuals. Also, what really struck interested me in Bitcoin is uh kind of that how technology is helped helping to empower humanity. And I've been a key very very fascinated with technology as a tool for emancipation uh as well. Um I work in in UX and I always thought Bitcoin had a bit of a UX problem, so that's kind of another convergence point for me. And then finally, I'd say uh like having studied anthropology and economics, I'm very deeply interested in how Bitcoin is kind of changing humanity. Um, and even at the heart of the question of what is money, you know, that is a that is something that was never really uh taught in in university. And Bitcoin kind of really helped kind of well like blew my mind as to like completely under changing my understanding and improving my understanding of money. So that's a bit of a different uh type of response. But overall, my my background is uh as I I touched upon um in um uh anthropology is kind of what I studied in the humanities. And my my interest is it's kind of the design, uh UX, and just building products, building things that that people and ultimately use. I love to solve problems, I love to get in there, and I think yeah, just the the direction of entrepreneurship also completely changed changed my life. That's why um I'm super grateful for having kind of been in this experience with with Geyser. And uh the the journey with Geyser itself is that uh I thought it crowdfunding is a really, really powerful tool to kind of create almost like a a plaza, uh, a place where communities can come together and fund what matters to them. So it's actually a beautiful mirror um to see what values does the community have, what do they care about, what do they uh what do they want to do? Uh what does the community want to do? And um, and so I uh I kind of came up with this idea um thinking that you know that there would be and also realizing that the power of the line network back in the 2021, uh I had met Stelios before, so then we kind of uh I fished him on the idea he he was he was um in from the beginning. And uh yeah, there was just no way for people to easily support projects in the in the Bitcoin space, or you know, apart from just sending QR codes on their Twitter feed back in the day. And um and and it and and then really we got into this experience and we realized in time that the challenges involved whether actually building a platform and monetize is a platform without taking custody on lightning, and Bitcoin is really, really difficult. So yeah, so we basically entered this journey, and um our key, our key mission has been to bring Bitcoin to the world, right? We wanted to showcase the world like what's possible with Bitcoin, how you can just build things in Bitcoin. And I think you know, in the last years, we really helped to service also some very, very important initiatives that are, I think, uh leaning dense and even those small in the world. And so yeah, kind of in this mission now, and we want to just keep powering Bitcoin projects and help Bitcoiners do what they want to do, which is change the world.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. And uh, what was exactly the moment where it was tell you you said, okay, let's do this, let's open geyser, uh, let's start a company. Did you receive any funding? Uh, did you have to pitch the idea, convince some people, or it was kind of easy? Uh, just curious about like the entrepreneurial process uh that you had to go through to make this happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very, very good question. Yeah, with Stanios in the very beginning, we we thought it was important. Um I th we thought this was definitely an era that a gap uh that exists, and um it's definitely something worthwhile that will add value. The key challenge was like, is it gonna be a big enough thing, right? Um, but we thought, okay, this will probably be a good wedge, a good way to kind of enter the the market and and then keep providing value to time and keep learning. And I think what we discovered, as I kind of mentioned already, is like the challenges of building a platform on Bitcoin. It's really, really non-trivial. And I'm happy to get into the details of the challenges as well. But but yeah, so we kind of we we entered, we entered that frame of mind, and you know, we kept building towards and we got initially a really, really staggering amount of traction from the community. Investors, honestly, I think percentage-wise, a really high amount that were interested. And then we got some we started off with getting some really, really t committed angel investors that really believed in the vision and and wanted to give back to the community. A lot of especially big investors that like early Bitcoin OGs that have been given so much by Bitcoin, just wanted wanted to give back. So we have quite a few angel investors that wanted to yeah, wanted to kind of give back to the community. So their way of contributing was to actually help us build this platform and improve it and grow it. And that was amazing, honestly. And um, I'll be I'm so super thankful for for their involvement and the participation. And we also did get some like larger investor uh funding as well, but all really within the Bitcoin space, you know. So there's maybe like 30, maybe 40 uh Bitcoin like focused investors, not many. So it is really hard. It's really hard for Bitcoin companies to raise money and to grow. And yeah, so it's it's it's hard work. The Lightning Ventures also is like a syndicate of all these investors and also kind of do crowdfunding, equity crowdfunding that you can also raise money from plebs, which is uh super, super cool. So, yeah, it's uh it's been a journey. It's it's not easy. Uh uh the ecosystem is growing, but in a very interesting, different way. And also, like bull markets are really important moments for getting more users in in this and this, you know, fresh blood in the system and get people excited about Bitcoin and buy. Um, but we didn't really see that much. So that kind of feels a bit like a sour taste, you know, like what happened. Uh how do we uh, you know, um, and you know, but in time, in time, you know, there's always consistent growth and there's activity. But um yeah, there's all sorts of challenges, you know. There's also challenges. I think there ultimately is uh what what I like to frame as like top-down Bitcoin and bottom-up Bitcoin. And top-down Bitcoin is like, you know, again, as and by the way, it's not bad, right? But it's important to understand the mechanisms of and the mechanisms of power involved as well, there, because top-down Bitcoin, you could say ETF Bitcoin, right? Like micro strategy like personified is like top-down Bitcoin. And it's great, you know, it's it's bringing in like government adoption Bitcoin. Like you could say El Salvador is top-down Bitcoin to some extent. That that will bring a lot of attention, that will bring a lot of money and marketing into it, and will bring Bitcoin understanding to a lot of people, but at a very superficial way that can hence be co-opted, right? You can, if there's a superficial understanding of something, you can easily manipulate people's understanding of it. Yeah, Bitcoin is great, you know, buy my ETF, right? Barma Bitcoin is more like grassroots, more slow at growing, but like deeper understanding that involves things like circular economies, it involves um education, it involves like people spreading culture, art, through film, through, through music. It's like Bitcoin has the ideology as well, right? And Geyser fits, I think, in in this latter model. And that's like I think really what's keeps me really excited about Geyser is like seeing Bitcoin as a movement and not as like a marketing gimmick. Not that marketing guinness are just are useless either. They're really, really important and powerful. But again, it's kind of part of this movement, and um, and yeah, a lot of you know companies uh in Bitcoin have to sometimes go on the other side, but I guess we're kind of really founded on kind of community principles. So um it may be a slow run, but you know, we're here for the long haul and here to ultimately do what Bitcoin has said to do, which is empower people around the world through monetary financial freedom. And to to clarify what that means, it means freedom from inflation, but it also means freedom from issues that have to do with the financial system. So maybe maybe yeah, you cannot raise funds for your cause, right? You maybe you cannot even raise funds for, or maybe you're like a you know, in that bondage, for example. All these are the kind of problems that we're interested in, I guys, or that we're looking to kind of explore and solve through Bitcoin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's amazing. I I would like to dive into like actually the behavior of Bitcoiners on the platform and you know the different features that you develop. So uh we will do that in a moment because that's really interesting from also the business point of view, apart from the the mission that uh you have at Geyser. But before that, I just because you also mentioned circular economies. So, you know, the famous Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, all these projects started because of a donation of an anonymous uh you know investor. He wasn't necessarily looking for profit, I think. He was just one wanted to start a movement. Uh, I don't know if it's still he's still anonymous, but but I'm guessing this kind of projects or this kind of micro movements coming from the uh the the bottom inspired geyser, right? Because you could is there any other projects like this that inspired you to start all of this? And basically you wanted more of this kind of circular economies, Bitcoin projects, communities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean uh at the beginning, what my feeling was like there's all this activity on Twitter at the time, and there's all these builders, and every Bitcoiner is a builder. Circular economies weren't really a thing. I think we talked about there was a concept of the citadels back then, and you know, I think there were some attempts of doing merchant adoption. And I also want to be careful because circular economies can be defined in all sorts of ways, and a lot of sort of projects probably try to piggyback on the idea and just tick the boxes, but ultimately it's it's an attempt of seeing Bitcoin for what I also think it is, which is a type of money, is not just savings, it's it's it's a better form of money overall, but allows you to um yeah, just have memory power over all your all your money. So attempts to create a system of Bitcoin as a primary uh tool for for transacting uh through value without government money, I think uh is a lotable, and and that is that's kind of what the interesting thing about the circuit economies are. So yeah, so uh and I think they this this movement of circuit economy has been growing. We actually wrote a report about it. I'm happy to deep dive about it, but it kind of again that's just on the side, bottom-up versus top down, and even movements that we consider top down, like the El Salvador, you know, on government uh Bitcoin as legal tender, was I think quite likely uh um influenced by these bottom-up movements. So Bitcoin Beach, right? That that set up shop and uh that set up its its Bitcoin circular economy in um in um El Zonte in El Salvador influenced the creation of Bitcoin as uh legal tender in El Salvador. It's not a coincidence that they'll Bitcoin as a legal tender happened in El Salvador. And then but what is really interesting is that you start seeing these in these places Bitcoin being adopted uh as a form of money, uh, and bits basically Bitcoin entering people's wallets and going deeper and deeper and deeper in these ecosystems, uh and people using it or starting to use it as actually as means of transacting digitally because they don't have bank accounts, and then ultimately growing uh as a then after that as a sort of value, interestingly. So there's all these really interesting examples of uh Bitcoin kind of going through these. Um the way that I frame it is like the circular economies essentially are the edges of adoption, the edges of adoption and on the ground, uh the margins. And uh at the margins where the exciting stuff happens, where the sort of the culture shocks happen, is where the the um innovation and the the the adoption is happening. But I'm happy to, yeah, if you have any specific questions to tackle through it, I'm happy to discuss.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it I haven't read the reports, but uh I would definitely link to it. So, you know, on our side, building, we have been involved in the Bitcoin community in Montreal, now in Mexico City. And we personally, well, I personally have the opinion that a lot of people are trying to push for merchant adoption as a way to orange pill the world. But what ends up happening is that even if you end up convince convincing someone to accept Bitcoin in their business in a restaurant or for any services, at some point, if they're not a bitcoiner themselves, that they will just forget how to do it because nobody they don't have clients paying in Bitcoin. There is Bitcoiners all over the world and also realize this in living in Mexico, even if the scene is way smaller, for example, than in Canada, the US, or in Europe, you always find Bitcoiners, but it's not enough people, it's not enough Bitcoiners that have Bitcoin ready to spend to make this kind of circular economies viable. In a lot of cases, you really need a high concentration of Bitcoiners visiting like a touristic place like in El Zonte and a big marketing around it to really make it work. So that's my opinion. So I don't know if like the necessarily the right approach is to necessarily convince people to accept Bitcoin, but more to create tools where existing Bitcoiners can spend their Bitcoin. So that's where, for example, with Aureo, we launched like a Bitcoin two pesos off-ramp, and you could basically pay even tacos on the street using Bitcoin. So that's my approach. I don't know since you brought it up, you know, what will be your advice in that in that regard?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I totally agree that it's not about forcing and I think attempts have been made, like you said, of doing an initial adoption by itself, and then you know, eventually if no one's paying, then what why why why bother continue accepting Bitcoin? Right? Totally agree. That's why I think the the the frame of of mind should be should be a little different, right? And to to give you an example, another Surrey economy example is that of uh Berlin, where they invite Bitcoiners to go in and and experience the town and experience the spending of Bitcoin. And then they also have a lot of um expats that go and live there and spend their Bitcoin. So what happens, right? In that case, spam the SAFs flow into the local community. In many cases, they convert them, in other cases they keep them, and then actually ends up flowing into the chain and to the supply chain. But there needs to be another example, actually, before I get onto the point, is uh Bitcoin Akazi, but also Nautive Peru and uh in Peru, where they have these different education courses, they have um they have uh certain tasks and they have jobs that they pay people in Bitcoin. And through that, they start creating this local pool of Bitcoin in these local ecosystems, where then people end up spending and circulating further. So kind of, I think uh Keith from Maya is is thinking about it as how do SATS enter ecosystems? And it could be through tourism, but it could be through jobs, right? It could be through donations, it could be through grants, it could be through lending, microlending, it could be through all these different ways. Ultimately, so ultimately like our model of like letting the sats flow is kind of that like sats must flow, they must circulate, and kind of embedded in the idea is the idea that um if if people just hold Bitcoin, the sats are sort of frozen, they're not really moving, they're not really kind of entering ecosystems. Holding holding Bitcoin is absolutely important, so I would recommend people to to hollow Bitcoin. But um, if if the chance is there, if the opportunity is there, um, and if you are fully a full Bitcoiner, you know, most of your wealth is in Bitcoin anyway. Thinking of spending a bit of that uh towards purchasing items, towards supporting the ecosystem in whatever way you can uh through Bitcoin itself, that's how we get Bitcoin flowing. And the more it flows, the more touch point it has. Um, that's where the Metca flow of comes in, where Metca flow off is a theory of networks, right? The belief that this the theory that says that the value of a network is equivalent to the number of connected nodes in a network. And well, if we're all hodlers and we basically all we do with Bitcoin is just buy it and we're we're one node, we're really just connected to the exchange, to one node, to the other node. And that looks a very different graph than a graph where a user is spending with a variety of other users, and there's this connectedness that happens where the user accepts, then spends, and then the graph looks a lot more varied, a lot more heterogeneous, a lot more interconnected. And that most definitely is a more resilient network. And then I think you could even argue that it is a more valuable network because there are more connected nodes or there's more connections among the nodes. And so I think it all kind of goes back to this, yeah, this kind of meme that we have of of letting the sets flow, seeing the growth of the economy at the grassroots um matter means, yeah, in your own local town or yeah, uh place in circular economy hubs around the world. And yeah, that these are, you know, this is these are it's kind of really about getting started. Uh it's about starting your meetup, it's about growing it, getting adoption, doing education, and it's kind of bottom-up approach of like deeper understanding, deeper networks versus like you know, superficial ones.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love it. Uh I love the let's this let the sets flow, uh, let the sets flow uh slogan. I think it's also a great marketing uh uh term, you know. No, you you you mentioned, and yeah, I'm getting really inspired. Uh I don't know if you know, but here at La Casa de Satoshi, we also have a Bitcoin, uh quite really big Bitcoin community that we've built in basically less than two years. And we're doing some kind of experiments, but it's really a different kind of needs in regards to Bitcoin than, for example, marginalized community, as you said, that Motif Peru is taking care of, or Ekasi. Uh so here it's a big city, people are more wealthy, they don't necessarily see the the need of uh using Bitcoin, but we're still trying to experiment uh, you know, a little Bitcoin as money uh experiments. So we're organizing like Mexican markets where anybody can come uh sell their products, whatever it is. Um, and the only condition is that they need to accept Bitcoin. So uh that'll be cool too if one day you come and see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. We'd love to.
SPEAKER_01So you also mentioned you know, every Bitcoin is a builder, and one thing for sure is that Geyser is building a lot. I always see you guys shipping new features. Experimenting new stuff. I remember, you know, three, I don't know, when it started exactly three, four years ago, probably the platform is completely unrecognizable at this point from the start. Can you describe a little bit what was your journey of actually developing the product according to the behavior and the kind of features that people are looking for? Not only the people donating, but the people organizing the campaigns. I'm really curious like what will be your take on like these few years of development and doing something like this, building something like this.
SPEAKER_00I mean, the the first thing to mention is when we started Geyser, we don't have AI. So it um things are changing really rapidly. Um and things now, it's amazing. We're we're actually the same small team. We went through uh hiring free at one point, we're now back to a spot team of three, and it's um it's amazing how fast we're now shipping thanks to AI, despite being a small team. Uh, we started you know very, very lean, you know, with an MVP with a single project uh page on Geyser. And when as soon as we start, you know, I think we raised $2,000 for a project workshop in Africa, in Nigeria, um, and from like people around the world, and people, you know, kind of really it went viral and people loved it. Um, and that's when we knew we had something. And then after that, we just started, you know, solving issues, bugs here and there, and just approach it from a perspective of like how do we prioritize things, what do we focus on? We opened up the platform a year later to everyone. The biggest challenge relates to the challenge I was mentioning earlier, is that of like how do you enable payments without taking custody uh and without transmitting the funds directly is yeah, really, really tricky with Bitcoin and also with Lightning. We were able to study also did a great job at figuring out ways to, thanks also like a wider network, figure out how we could pull it off. And that involved using hold in voices, which is is really, really not easy to build. China, some of the key challenges with Bitcoin to like building on Bitcoin is really hard, not just because like technically difficult, but also yeah, like the market, you know, is what it is, and yeah, all the sort of the issues you can imagine is kind of the situation building with Bitcoin is is is like living a hard mode kind of thing, playing a video game in hard mode. And so only recently we we actually moved our infrastructure to a different system on Wootstock that allows us to that kind of abstracts everything away. Users don't even need to know what's you know, they have to save the private key, and then they could draw their funds any way they they they want. But uh that was one of the most challenging things is thinking about how do you build a platform. Basically, basically building a platform in the fiat world, you just connect Stripe, and that's it. You don't have to do, like there's not much you need to do. It's like Stripe does everything, and Stripe is like the ultimate custodian. But in Bitcoin, there just isn't it's a very small market, so there aren't that many platforms like you think of Geyser, but also there aren't many infrastructure for building platforms. Then Nostor kind of came out and offered some easy way to build for developers. But Naster is easy for developers to build, but it's not easy for users to use just because of several issues with Master that makes it quite clunky for users to use, really. So yeah, that's kind of like the dilemma I think we're still in in Bitcoin. But yeah, so we've been building a lot and we've experimented all sorts of different uh things. We tried to overall to make the experience uh great. We also experimented with uh grants, uh issuing grants to projects on Geyser. We built all sorts of things. We were even building out what we built out like fiat payment solutions as well for people that don't want to spend their sats. Yeah, we've kind of considered in in other circumstances do we want to be building soccer platforms? And we we did try a few of those alternative takes, but ultimately our feeling is like we can keep making Geyser better, improving it the experience, and through that we can grow a use user base and make Geyser more accessible to the millions that we want to reach. Um, yeah, so being a small team, there's a lot to build and there's limited time. So yeah, so that's kind of our our take is really just how to make Geyser uh better, how do we grow Geyser more? Our focus is has been a lot uh growth and and so not just the platform, but also like the content, the marketing, the the networks that we can use. And so, yeah, so and how do we how do we how do we create content that resonates and that makes people interested in supporting projects as well? So yeah, there's there's a lot that we're we're building, and in terms of what's coming, we're really focusing quite a lot now on what we used to call geyser grants, and now we call the impact fund. And the impact fund is uh uh is essentially um a way for us to spread word about like the the tools that Bitcoin provides, such as crowd friendly to what we talked about before, the circular economies, the um the hubs on the ground. There's over 200 circular economy hubs on on Geyser that are seeking support, are seeking donations or selling products. And um basically we're partnering with a few of them to do these Bitcoin workshops, and we kind of help them support them um also through sponsors. And um, aim is to yeah, like empower individuals to know that look, you can raise funds for your dreams, right? And kind of creating a sense of entrepreneurship, either social entrepreneurship, but also like business saviness, entrepreneurship. Because one area that we're also experimenting as Product Impact Fund is recoverable grants, or like because a kind of microloan with no interest. You basically receive funds and and then you you pay them back when when certain conditions are are met. Um and and yeah, I think that's kind of like how we we think we can grow ultimately geysers through this kind of bottom-up approach, through these circular economy hubs, through the adoption that is happening at the edges. And speaking of Lotam, LATAM plays a really, really important role, and so does Africa. And we see that every day with like how much activity there is among these projects.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, before diving into that, I just want to comment that I really like the all or nothing feature. So basically, I use Geyser for the first time with Paco's campaign, Paco de la India, because he's a friend. You know, he sent me a message. Uh, when I saw it, I'm like, okay, I need to contribute something because I actually helped him during his travels in Mexico. And I really want to read his book, so I'm like, okay, I need to donate. And he sends me a message, hey uh bro, you need to donate. So I uh I did, and I I really like the the floor of everything, so I think that's uh that's an amazing feature where I was going with this. I I lost my train of thoughts. So yeah, this kind of feature is is really amazing, and you can see that you've been digging into like the the behavior of the donors. Probably people ask you, right? So if I give money but it doesn't reach the goal, is my money lost? So what will happen? Is the person just pocket pot pocketing the Bitcoin and not if he's not uh he doesn't have to give anything back, right? Is that the conditions? How do you make sure the the projects will will happen, you know? Because maybe how do you filter also? Uh, do you have like situation of people trying to do scams, trying to recall funds for a for a fake uh I don't know, somebody died in my family, I'm getting money. Like, does it happen? How do you filter that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the RNL thing is a very powerful feature. Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It's something that we've been, you know, from the very, very get-go, Kaiser and other people asking, like, can I fund a project and get my money back if the goal is not reached? And that's a kind of the Kickstarter model. And that has a really important place because that is a very important mechanism if you have a project that has a hard minimum. And a hard minimum become comes in because maybe a book takes, you know, if you want to print a thousand books, it'll be it'll be like, you know, ten thousand dollars, for example. And and and so if you reach five thousand dollars and you can't buy and you have to, as a creator, put in yourself five thousand dollars, like that might not be something you want to do. And so minimum is very important. And being Bitcoiners, being a Bitcoin uh platform, uh, we thought like how do we do some bitcoin? And we can really do it um without but without keeping custody. And so, yeah, we we we were able to do it thanks to you know smart contracts on rootstock. So users send Bitcoin on chain on lightning, we swap it to Rootstock, and there's a smart logic, and um, and then the funds are are stuck there until the the goal is reached or not. And so other than nothing, yeah, it works really beautifully. Um it works. Backu reaches goal. Uh in terms of how we how we filter the project, we we do have we do have a review before the project goes out and and um before it goes out, and we we we do you know basic due diligence to ensure that uh uh there is some basic proof of work. I should mention that the projects on Geyser are an on-custodial, right? So like funds are going really peer-to-peer, they don't pass through Geyser. And so there's an extra degree of due diligence that also creators contributors should do, and making sure that a project is legitimate. Um, but yeah, we do, we do, you know, we do um uh we do quite a well, quite a few checks when it comes to looking at the social media and looking at the ability of the project and really requesting the creator to add as much information as as they can about the project. A lot of projects don't don't launch because we don't think they have enough to be there. So we're trying to really, and through time, we've really tried to focus on increasing the quality of projects on Geyser. But yeah, it's uh ultimately it's a platform designed for everyone in the world to use. So yeah, I'm really excited. Out of nothing, we launched it in uh January, February this year, and with a few interesting projects like a BitX and like new hardware wallets, and you have Paco with his book, and you also have Bitcoin Arena looking to improve a gym. You have musicians, so it's it's kind of like the Kickstarter, right? The Kickstarter on Bitcoin, and and the rest of Geyser is is uh fundraisers, right? So direct peer-to-peer donations. So both are these kind of geyser's both both of these things as fundraisers and campaigns, kind of GoFundMe and Kickstarter. It's kind of the two things together, and they're quite different, but ultimately it's all about this unifying thread of like supporting Bitcoiners, supporting Bitcoin adoption, um, enabling the Bitcoin economy to kind of flourish.
SPEAKER_01Right. For the engine of growth, you you mentioned like you're really focusing on growth. Something that I find amazing in your case is that all of your users are incentivized to promote your platform a lot. So I can imagine that you can you actually help them getting better at promoting their projects. Is there any specific tools or things that you do with specific projects in order in order for them to succeed? Because basically your your users can work for you in a sense to to promote the the platform, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. The the growth engine on geyser is pretty is pretty amazing. And the creators are spreading the word about the geyser by spreading the word about their projects. It's a beautiful symbiotic relationship. You know, ultimately we succeed if projects succeed, and uh projects succeed if if we also do a good job with the platform. So, yeah, in terms of how we support them, there's a lot of things that we provide really as a baseline like on Geyser, and that includes just the trending feature on the landing page, the trending projects on the landing page, the automated content engine that goes out. If there's a large transaction, it'll go out as a post on social media through our social media account, and that will help to boost tension around it. We have newsletters, we have just every time also a post is written and updates are made and like interesting stories are made about their project. Um, you know, we repost it. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that we do from on from a baseline perspective. And then what we also do is that we provide launch plans so that we provide a service. Also, beyond the tool, like we provide a service where we can support projects in all sorts of ways strategically in designing and crafting their campaign, providing feedback to their campaign, actually like creating content for them, designing a content pipeline, you know. Um yeah, like all the way, all the way, right? We we can support them, connect them to our network, bring in large funders. There's also ways that we support projects with different different like we call them launch plans, really. So, yeah, we've seen quite a quite a lot of success with this. This has been a huge huge big addition that we've made at Geyser, refocusing from this being very early days. We didn't have capacity, so we really focus on the tooling of the platform, but then realizing that how important it is to to provide a valuable service, support projects and in the launch. And so, yeah, now we we we we get a lot more hands-on.
SPEAKER_01Uh okay, that's that's really interesting. So basically, it's a new line of services. Is that maybe the the future of the way you'll make most of the revenue? Like, how did the original idea on how you make money evolved with time? Do you see it going this way, or are you still counting on receiving a percentage of the transaction of each donation? Uh, because you know it almost sounds like a charity platform where you're a business, right? So you need to make money to sustain, to grow, uh, to sustain the operations and everything. So, what's the game plan in regards to how you personally make money, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, great question. We it's really very transparent about how how we how we make money. We take 5% uh platform uh fee for every transaction that happens on our platform. We also get, yeah, and and to kind of answer directly your question, yes, we we do make some significant money in terms of a second if a portion of our money mean comes from the the launch plans where it require some we we we uh if if if they want support beyond just launching, we we can provide additional support. Yeah, these are these launch plans are quite successful. That interestingly, just asking for tips to contributors that want to support the platform is also uh very valuable income on stream. We then have ambassador programs, uh which is if a project creator opts in, they can essentially enable ambassador earnings. And that applies to Geyser, but applies to anyone. So anyone that can actually make million geyser, because if you share a project that has great value, has potential, and is is looking to have an impact in a big card option, you can share their link with your referral link, which is uh question mark hero equals your your username. So, and if people click the referral link and fund, you get 5% anyone of that contribution. And and again, the creator can opt in or opt out of that, but it is it is by default on because we want to allow anyone to be able to share, to be incentivized to share, really. And that applies also to the makes some fees for sharing projects, and so that's how we can take some some revenue for that as well. So it's it's kind of varies, and there's this different revenue streams, but ultimately for for us, it's how we think about it is how do we align incentives so that we make it a feasible, we unlock value, we unlock reasons for people to act, right? Whether it's through contribute, whether it's through giving honestly, even giving people a chance to support Geyser is like people love projects on Geyser, so they love Geyser. So what's 5% tip to Geyser to keep the platform running? So things like that really do make a difference hugely. So yeah, if you um and then yeah, the the ambassador program, ambassador earnings, again, really, really valuable. The partnership service fees that I mentioned. We have like merch, yeah, so that helps as well. If you want to support guys with merch, we accept that too. And I think that's more or less it. I think that's the main bulk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's really uh it's really nice that you're creating this really sort and good incentives for anyone to share because I I can imagine people from uh in some countries, Africa, give this an opportunity to make a fun viral video, and they get a bunch of sign-ups and people donating to a project they love. So why not also give them something for it, right? I might try it, I might try it. And just wanna specify that I did give uh the maximum tip uh when I donated to Paco. So uh I I wasn't sure if if there was a uh a fee, already an interim fee, and you were only connecting tips, but it's good to know there's basically you're making uh a little percentage no matter what, but you cannot.
SPEAKER_00It's just saying, yes, that's that's a good feedback, and I think we probably want to highlight that because I received that recently again from someone else, and it's challenging because like if you go to an Airbnb, you know, you pay an Airbnb fee, and you've already stuff to ask, oh, is the platform also charging the host, you know, or if you're on Amazon and there's an Amazon fee, you're not there thinking, oh my god, is Amazon charging me again compared to um, you know, are they charging the seller as well? Well, yeah, I mean, like, do you have to know? It's like a the it's a relationship between different parties, right? Yeah, but it's good to know, it's good to know, like, I guess, in the context of a crowdfunding platform, perhaps. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's uh something to consider. But honestly, the other platforms, Uber or Airbnb, are charging in the tens of percentage. So considering that you only charge five for making the world a better place, I really don't see this as a problem, uh, me personally. Yeah, and you mentioned LATAM, and obviously my goal is to kind of interview entrepreneurs and Bitcoiners specifically related to LATAM in general. So you you said that many projects are really active here and in Africa. So well, there's the Bitcoin Isla project, I think the coffee shop that got founded this way, if I'm not wrong. The Bitcoin Arena in Honduras, the there's Motif Peru, there is Escolita Bitcoin, I think that's in Uruguay, or I'm not sure. So, yeah, there's a ton of projects all over LATAM using the platform. So I'm curious, like, do you see any difference of the kind of projects that are being launched in Latam versus other parts of the world? Uh what are the things that are I know LATAM is a really big region, so I I can imagine uh every project is is different, but have you what are your conclusions or why are your takeaways from product Bitcoin projects coming from uh Latin America?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a good question. It's really varied. It's really varied, yeah. And uh it's kind of related to other regions as well. It's it's uh the key kind of pillars we see is like education, bitcoin education, bitcoin culture, art, movies, things like that, music. And then you f also have uh communities, right? So you have community centers, hubs, events for for fundraising fundraisers for events, community initiatives, more like uh maybe humanitarian efforts as well, and uh causes as well, quite a quite a few of those. Yeah, so it's really quite varied around around around these these types of projects. And in terms of like LATAM and you know why LATAM, yeah, we see that LATAM, I think because of a lot of the problem of financial access, access to finance, access, access to banking, that's a primary reason why Latam and Africa are are are you know quite quite advanced. They don't have the same oftentimes the same existing financial standards as as other parts in the West. So perhaps that that is also one reason. And the other one is is actually access to finance, so access to things like fundraising. GoFundMe, okay, sorry, they're not operator. There are regional services that do that, but they're often not. Very not very good, or they're actually very, very expensive. I believe I was looking at an all-or-nothing platform that exists in in uh Brazil, uh, and it charges like 15% um fees for all or nothing, which is exorbitant. It's um yeah, and then uh I think it's it's um it's a place where yeah, I think these are the the two key reasons, right? Like access to finance um and um access to banking as well. But and then one other reason why we're really excited about Latin America is because of the Latin America Impact Fund. So we have an impact fund that is essentially um arbitrating funding towards specific causes focused in Latam. And it's been supported, it's been created by the Federation by ourselves, the Federation on Bitcoins, uh Iberoamerica, and also um uh Paystan. And we have over $140,000 that has been committed to go towards projects uh on Geyser that are based in Latin America. And we're also keep we're still growing it. So if you guys would be interested in joining in in this fun and and commit some personal funds towards supporting Lifetime projects, that would be amazing. And and kind of yeah, our effort is and our aim and our goal will be if we can get to a million dollars in supporting Latin America projects, we can really make a lot of noise around what's happening in the space and uh showcasing the growth of Bitcoin in in the region. And yeah, just get also more creators involved in Bitcoin, get more people to look into it. Um and this may seem like a bit, it's a bit like um, I yeah, I think this is very much to like bottom up, you know, it makes some like top-down money. It's not, you know, it's it's real Bitcoin. Bitcoin has been committed um by really, really amazing philanthropists, individuals, companies. And again, the point is these are donations going towards freedom and and um empowerment. Uh, so it's really special, uh, really special group of people that are are are making this happen. So yeah, we're we're gonna keep working at it oil wallet, we're gonna keep trying to grow uh this pool as much as we can. And um yeah, I'm really excited to yeah, to do that.
SPEAKER_01And who decides how the money gets distributed once you reach a certain goal? Are there certain criteria as a project? If you want to be part of the the projects that receive money from that fund, like what's the process around it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you're in Latam, uh you just have to click apply. That is just kind of highlights our the degree of interest that you have. So if you're in Geyser, if you're in Latam and have a project on Geyser, we don't have it, you can just create a project on Geyser and apply to the Latin America uh uh impact fund. And then the the evaluation is done by you. Like if you commit to $5,000, you can see all the applicants, you can filter by all the projects types by I want to fund culture, okay, or I want to fund education, and or I want to fund by region, I want to fund just projects in Mexico. And you can see all the Mexican projects and just easily allocate the funding. And then you can decide I want to donate directly, or I want to match, I want to allocate a thousand dollars over this project and match it. So they have to raise their own funds and then we can match the funding. Or you you want to say, oh well, I'd rather fund this if it's another nothing. Or yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty much it. So that's kind of like one way of doing it. The other way is when I mentioned four around circular economy hubs where we're partnering with them. And one thing that we're we're doing now in a pilot and it's being very successful is that the circular economy hubs are what we call field partners, and they do workshops in their own communities with people and let them and basically ask the question if we have if we have $500, what should we do for the community? What are some of the key problems that we should do? And uh the field partners essentially pick the best project or projects and allocate the brand funding directly themselves. Um, and that is, I mean, then the project that's created and and then you know we fund them, but they essentially help along the journey of getting people uh on boarded to Geyser so that they can also receive contributions from the community, and yeah, it's a really powerful model, really interesting one. So basically these are the two options. You can select them yourself or you let the circuit economies decide.
SPEAKER_01Fascinating. All right, uh, we'll we'll look into it. I don't process nothing, but uh uh but yeah, I like that the platform can kind of serve as an extra tool of following where the money is going. We we obviously do a lot of helping here in Mexico, but more on a private basis, uh, with La Casa de Satoshi and everything. Right. If we would like to expand and support more Mexican projects, uh then that makes uh total sense, or other Latam projects.
SPEAKER_00And we could do it through through uh sort interject, but yeah, we could do it even through um Casa de Satoshi, right? Where again, to the owner model, uh Casatoshi finds the projects um and um and sort of supports them along the way, and you could provide the funding. Anyway, we can discuss that another time.
SPEAKER_01That's a good idea. I didn't think about it. Yeah, because La Casa de Satoshi, we really want to we we really became the biggest Bitcoin community in Mexico, if not in LATAM really fast. There's a great community here, so yeah, it could definitely become uh some sort of hub that helps other projects or communities. But yeah, let's talk about it in private, maybe. Maybe one of probably one of the last questions. Just curious about your general metrics. Is this something you show publicly? How many Bitcoin have has been raised so far? How many projects have have been funded? Um if if you don't, it's obviously fine. But curious if uh the these things are public on your side.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, actually, it's a good question. Um, yeah, it's it's uh it's public, but seems out of date. I think it's probably around 40 so Bitcoin that has been contributed on Geyser, bro. Um and yeah, I mean we started Geyser that Bitcoin was what 15,000, so maybe a little bit skewed from the early activity. Uh, but uh no, it's it's uh yes around that, I think probably around that yeah, yeah. So again, all the contributions are peer-to-peer. Um we now have a geyser wallet, so it makes it easier for people to get started as well if they don't if they don't have Bitcoin. So really that's really exciting. In terms of yeah, just traction, we we had a lot of traction in the 2023, 2024, and I think now has kind of 25-26 is kind of stabilized quite a bit. And I think now all or nothing is is actually helping to create a boost of activity as well. Um, so it's it's quite interesting from that perspective. It's yeah, I think the community is it's it's what's interesting is like it's this kind of consistent activity that's just you know kind of quite quite interesting. There's there's there are a lot there's the there's quite a bit of variability in general, but the activity is there in terms of number of contributions like per month, it it also really varies between you know like five and two thousand again because of the project. That's one of the challenges of crowdfunding is really quite variable, quite, quite really depends on the projects. So it's really important to the sales effort of finding the project, supporting them along the way, getting them on board. That's really really important.
SPEAKER_01And do you think the the bear market actually inf how does the bear market influence your specific uh project? Uh people some a little bit more uh read your other bitcoins.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they do. Definitely do. Uh the bear market definitely uh affects us. And actually, to be honest, uh, to be a little bit more nuanced, it's not even the bear market itself. It's actually the very it's the variability, it's the points of flux. Like, for example, now we're getting a lot of contributions again because because Bitcoin's sort of becoming a stable coin. Like it's like it's you know stabilizing around 70,000, 80,000. Um the problem is with Bitcoin goes from 120 to 60, you see a huge, a huge drop. And then you see another huge drop when you actually Bitcoin goes up. Bitcoin goes up all of a sudden. Yeah, people feel wealthy, but actually they feel uncertain of it of their of it of Bitcoin's value. So when the ECB says, oh, we wanna keep you know the prices stable, like they have a like that they're talking about human psychology. Like when prices fluctuate, people people stop. People stop to do whatever because they don't know how to value their own currency. So yeah, that's the problem with Bitcoin, it's just the variability, and that's just where we're we know it is the reality, it is it is what it is, and it'll take decades for for this to to become an open. And um, but yeah, that's that's that's uh that's a key important thing. So I'd say rather than like the bear market does it is important, but it's more the very the variability because uh even the other way around is um a reason why people fund less sometimes.
SPEAKER_01I get it. Yeah, because if the Bitcoin price goes up, it's like okay, maybe I will still wait to donate because it might go up even more.
SPEAKER_00I go up again, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and you said you you're gonna add some fiat options, uh, and obviously you're a bitcoiner. Um and at every point, uh you know, you you took the decision a long time ago uh with Stallius, I imagine that you're a Bitcoiner, you're not gonna add any shit coins, although on the platform. Uh, but I'm curious about that landscape. Is there like an equivalent of uh this, but in the the crypto world, or do you at least would consider, for example, donations and stable coins? Just curious on your take on this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good question. So when it comes to fiat, you know, the majority of Bitcoiners still use fiat, so it seems sensible. And apart from like a few complete, I mean, let me just be super super generous and just say, you know, very hardcore Bitcoiners, I need fiat for for just a few handfuls, like a problem. Like, oh, you shouldn't do that. But like that's what people use, so yeah, we have to listen to our users. So yeah, we we've added uh two payment options in fiat. One is Stripe, but you need to configure it if it's available in your country. And the other one is Banksa, which uh works pretty much everywhere around the world, and essentially allows you to swap basically, you pay in credit card and it swaps to Bitcoin, to the project. So it may in some cases require KYC because you're actually buying Bitcoin and sending it instantly. In many cases, it does not require KYC, but it is um, yeah, it is a it is a useful, useful option. Not not very much used, but uh it has the potential to be quite useful. And when it comes to stable coins, yeah, we we definitely are thinking about it. Um it doesn't seem to be a huge amount of volume yet, but we're thinking of integrating the the bolt swap so that bolt swap bolts exchange so that you can fund the stable coin, but you could also withdraw the stable coins so that yeah, so that you you could potentially not have to worry about the volatility and just exchange it more more easily. I mean, stable coins are gonna be, you know, we're bitcoiners, but we we believe in freedom of people for people to choose however they use their money. And the stable coins, it's not it's not Bitcoin, but um if if people not use it, we'll yeah, well those of other other kind of cryptos. I mean, the question is this, you know, like we're Bitcoin crowdfunding platform, like we're we're in other words, we're a platform for Bitcoiners. What does Bitcoiners use? Well, we use Bitcoin, they use fiat, and maybe use stable coins. So we've had some some few examples of projects that we became actually quite large and went kind of outside the Bitcoin community, and people were asking to fund with uh things like Monero or but uh yeah, I don't know. We we we want to have yeah, we didn't really see a huge amount of apart from some examples, it was very minimal. Um and and I another reason not to do that actually is also because they may be securities. Bitcoin is definitely not a security, so we actually don't know how even projects like to mention other cryptocurrencies on on Geyser because again, we want to stay true to our ethos, but also yeah, we don't want to be kind of bucketed, even especially for the mica regulations with uh you know it's like uh supporting or endorsing potential securities, so even to stay safe, we we'd rather not.
SPEAKER_01Uh about regulations, so you know you it's uh like peer-to-peer, so the money goes straight to so you don't really touch the money, if I understand well. So, what is your current like leg regulatory stance? Uh you just mentioned Mika. Are you worried by Mika in your case or not really? It goes outside of the scope of the regulations that are coming at.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, most regulations are like are okay as long as you do not custody funds and do not do not touch in the money and remain in custodio. You know, that's why Phoenix wallet and all knockousodio wallets operate any everywhere on the world. And Geyser is is really that. We use Rootstock as that as that layer where the wallets are are are are hosted, and we have no access to those wallets. So if you people use lose wallets, they lose the funds. We do not have access to them. So yeah, it's uh that's kind of how we operate. It's a non-custodial crowdfunding platform in that sense. Yeah, it's um yeah, it's it's yeah, we we're you know, trying to yeah, we focus on being compliant, basically, um, ensuring that we we're doing things the right way. More so for also for the peace of mind of the user. Like if we were custody user funds, I would be not sleeping every night. Um instead now it's it's um yeah, it's a different story. We're we'll never help us use user custody, but um it's um even with rootstock, it's an incredibly powerful system for non-custodial uh Bitcoin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. I know it's a boring conversation, at least for me, but uh thank you for uh you know clarifying that. So I don't want to retain you too long. So maybe just last two questions. Uh I don't know if you can have uh preferences in regards of the projects that succeeded so far. So if you will have to name three projects that you think were like a really great success and that you want to see really them see succeed, or you can name more if you if you have some. Um and then uh just to finish, you know, uh what is coming next? You you mentioned the the big Latam fun. Um but if there's anything else that you like to promote or advertise, uh kind of reveal some secrets of what is coming next for the second half or 2026, uh that could uh end up well, our podcast and our episode that I really liked, by the way, because we went deeply into details. Awesome, man. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's honestly a hard question because there is there's a lot happening, and when people ask me, I'm always like, I don't know. It's um I don't want to pick my favorites, but I I'll just say I think I am I'm also a good friend with Paco, so his his proof of work book was an awesome experience. Um, you know, working with him, he's raised $13,000 uh to make his book happen, and he did. He is now, it's gonna happen now. Um and and now he's actually because it succeeded, he actually has launched a shop on Geyser, which is really cool to sell his book. We then have I think some other all announcing projects that were really exciting that have passed already, but like our we've had some BitX projects um and like hardware wallets, and I was really excited to see like people innovating on the front of tech in Bitcoin. That's that's that's awesome to see. I'm scrolling through geyser now and kind of looking at we have Escodita Bitcoin in Uruguay that received a grant from Latin America Impact Fund, and yeah, they're doing some amazing work. My co-founder went to see their work in what uh Guadalupe, I believe. And they're yeah, they're you know, they're they're not only doing education, they're also doing some charity work there, and I believe the sense of trust that he's he's built up is is pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we we receive uh his visits to La Casa, by the way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome to see that. Yeah, and like honestly, there's been uh a quite a huge variety of types of projects on Geyser in the last few in the last few. So I love to see culture kind of films come out as well on Geyser. That's uh very yeah, that's a very exciting area for me. I'm I'm a big big fan for for films, and um there's been quite a few interesting films where I come out in there's one actually on Nobrunners. Uh if you go on geyser.front lining page, you'll see it's um recently launched by Helana. And uh yeah, it's it's uh it's in partnership with No Good. So I'm a huge fan of. In fact, No Good would be the third the third project I mentioned, which is a book um about uh basically like Bitcoin aesthetics. What is if you have kind of grassroots, what do the grassroots look like? What aesthetic it does it give you? Well, No Good is is one of the crafters of this cypherpunk aesthetic in Bitcoin, which I love. And he's also selling his book on Geyser too. So yeah, lots of kind of creative projects, culture, community projects that are really, really exciting. And I'll just mention that that's one of the most amazing things about working and building geyser is that every day I wake up and I see these really interesting and different types of projects that like just blew my mind. It is absolutely incredible the level of creativity that a lot of people have around the world and and Bitcoiners have around the world. So um I'm very thankful to be in this position of yeah, witnessing all this creative um bursts. So, yeah, what's next for Geyser? There's a lot coming up next, uh, especially when it comes to these field partners, especially when it comes to the impact fund, testing recoverable grants type of micro lending, you you could say. And honestly, with AI, uh the the sky's a ceiling. We we we can we can keep iterating and coming up with all sorts of different ways to to grow the platform um and and and improving. Um but yeah, that's uh you know, we we're also iterating so that people have feedback, ideas, we're always open to to suggestions.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. I'm excited. Um and now that I donated on Geyser first time, I think it won't be my last time. So I'm excited for everything you guys do. You're really making uh the world a the better place. So yeah, please, everyone that is listening, go start a project, go find a project, but keep an eye out on Geyser. So thank you, Metamik. Any last words?
SPEAKER_00No, Masek, thank you so much, man. It's been a true honor and pleasure to to chat with you today.
SPEAKER_01Maybe just let the let the sets flow. Let the stats flow, exactly, exactly. Thank you, Meta Metamick. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Cheers.