Tamsin Orr-Walker: Protecting Kea, the World's Most Curious Parrot

A conversation about my favourite parrot! I had the pleasure of chatting with the Co-founder and Chair of the Kea Conservation Trust Tamsin Orr-Walker has spent 20 years protecting Kea, the world’s most curious parrot.

Kea slide down rooftops for fun, dismantle cars out of curiosity, and once caused $30,000 in damage to forestry equipment in a single night. They’re also  endangered, with fewer than 7,000 left in the wild. The very traits that make them so captivating are the same ones that keep getting them into trouble.

This was a fun conversation about one of the most intelligent, curious, and mischievous birds on the planet. In this conversation we cover:
How 150,000 kea were killed under a government bounty, and the shift that followed
The lead poisoning crisis hiding in plain sight on South Island rooftops
How a conflict with forestry crews turned into one of their biggest conservation wins
Why New Zealand leads the world on public support for conservation
What 20 years of building a conservation trust from scratch actually looks like
Link in comments. 🦜
#SavingWildlife #conservation #kea #podcast #wildlife #NewZealand

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We ended up with about seven Kia come down into a caravan park right by the beach, and these birds just call s mayhem. Late in the evening and actually all through the night, particularly if it's a full moon, and they can be very active. These birds were coming down in the late evening and just landing on people's caravan roofs, pulling out wires and rubber, and if people went outside and yelled at them, of course, that caused even more excitement for the birds.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome to Saving Wildlife with me, Sam Williams. On today's episode, we talk about Kia, an incredible parrot from New Zealand that's long been a favourite of mine. Because of that, I dove straight into conversations with Tamsin and failed to introduce it properly. We do get to it a little bit later on though. I've also got some fun video that I'm going to overlay on the YouTube channel episode. If you're listening on Apple or Spotify, you might check out the YouTube and get to see these guys. It's also the first time I've done a virtual conversation, and that's a little bit different for me, but I think you'll find it went pretty well, and hopefully I'll be doing more of these in the future to reach more conservationists. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy. Thomson, it's exciting for me to be talking to you today about kiers because they are my favourite of all parrots, and parrots are my favourite of all animals. And I it's been more than 30 years that I've wanted to see one in the wild and I still haven't made it there. They're such incredible characters. Let's start with some stories because I imagine you've you've had incredible encounters with them in the wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah, no, I've I've actually encountered care both in the wild and captivity. The the captive group is actually when I first had my first experiences with them. And actually that still remains some of my most endearing encounters. I actually worked with three birds, two of them had been caught from the wild. So they were birds that had been bought in because they were they were seen to be attacking sheep up in the high country areas, which is actually a reason why they were subjected to a bounty for a hundred years. And um so at Auckland Zoo where I was working, and I started working with them, and it was because I'd read uh the book um Alex, obviously about Alex the Grey Parrot. And was absolutely fascinated with you know his abilities, and so I thought, well, I I was going to try a few of the the um well, some of the training sessions I guess that I used to use on carnivore species with the birds and see how well they responded to it. And I was absolutely blown away. So I I actually started up a training system with these birds every day, and they literally would just nail new behaviours after just a few minutes. And they were obviously hanging out for that sort of stimulus all the time, and that's really what hooked me uh onto these guys.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, they they they're super smart and they just quick up pick up new things instantly, don't they? And they're but they're also they're playful and they experiment and explore different things all the time all the time, it seems.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Oh yeah, yeah, and and of course that's what gets them into trouble at times in the wild. So uh we deal with a lot of conflict situations in the wild, and it's normally young teenage birds, basically. They fledge from the nest, and then they sort of get out there on their own. They develop these big flocks of young teenagers basically sort of flying around everywhere, and and humans are very interesting to them and all the stuff that we bring along with us, and that's when we start getting the conflict situations, Kia breaking into houses and uh dismantling vehicles and all that sort of thing, which is that's sort of classic.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I think I think it's hilarious that everything we put in their environment they kind of make fun of. The the interesting thing there, you said this the two of those individuals were attacking sheep, and Kia got a lot of fame for that or notoriety because they and they would they would actually attack live adult sheep, and was it is it the bile that they were going for or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

There was like no, it's it's going yeah, it was going for the fat around the kidneys, and I mean there's there's a lot of you know discussion back and forth about just how you know extensive this behaviour was. It does happen, but you know, whether it happened to the extent that you know was was said, you know, at the time, but the government did put a bounty on them and 150,000 were recorded as being killed, so there would have been a lot more birds than that over that period of time. And essentially, you know, you know, potentially exterminated them from particular areas, but fortunately they survived. But the last of the um the last of the permitted shooting of Kia for that particular purpose was back in 2009. So it's pretty recent, even though they got full protection in 1986, so but you could still apply for a permit to shoot Kia if they were causing issues.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And it's interesting that you've actually got that data of at least the the minimum number that were removed. I mean, that there's obviously there's likely to be far more than that. Yeah, but when I think about my work with now with Great Greenwich, we don't actually know how many were there in the past. We can extrapolate from you know density estimates and things like that. But you've actually got a number. And so what's the population standard now in the in the wild?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Um, it's really hard to get numbers just because of the fact that they're over such a massive area. It's a it's nearly four million hectares, and a lot of that country is quite difficult to get into. We do have populations that ourselves and Doc and other researchers look at and monitor, and we've been doing that for many years now. So the the best guesstimates less than 7,000 individuals, which isn't a lot when you look at you know situations where they do crash. So we had a population up in Nelson Lakes, which is near the top of the South Island, and that was that was researched in the 1990s by Doc, and that population was seen to be stable during that period of time and not subject to predation events, which is interesting because they are a ground nesting um and we went back in there ten years later just to get an idea of you know was the population still stable, and we found it had crashed by almost 80% during that period of time, and that predation was actually a major issue. So we put nest cameras inside the remaining nests once we actually found where those birds were, because they they um hold their territory uh for their lifetime essentially, uh breeding pests. Yeah, so and we just found that they were being constantly interfered with by a number of species, so it's all introduce mammals, because of course New Zealand doesn't have any land mammals other than bats.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

We've gone straight in, I realize, because I've I'm like desperate to know what the latest is with the Kia. But let's step back a little bit. I was just thinking because we said about New Zealand, people maybe don't even know what we're talking about. But that's my fault because I have my excitement to know. But the the Kia is an alpine parrot from New Zealand. Can you tell us a bit more about the bird? Send us a postcard from where you would find the Kia.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, the Kia is is not just an alpine bird species, it goes right down to the coastal area. So we have birds hanging out on the beaches right down on the in the South Island. Getting into stuff, I should say, on the on the coast as well. So they live predominantly in the forested areas, and that's where they breed as well and nest. So they'll be sort of below the bush line. So nests can be as high as sort of 1600 metres, but also right down to the coast. And the omnivorous bird species, so grubs and lots of uh seeds and fruits and nectars of native species, they also scavenge as well. They're quite a large bird species, so about a kilo, they're quite a sort of a grunty parrot, and the olive green feathers on the top make them very much camouflaged from above, which of course most of our species, because uh predators, they evolved in a in a system where the only predators really came from the sky. So like like our harst eagle, which is now extinct, which would have taken off your pet dog now, probably. They're so huge.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Um and the harst eagle the one that was like 17 kilograms and preyed on mowers?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, yeah. So you can imagine that would be pretty impressive to watch.

unknown 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, I I don't think um people would have been very happy about having one of those flying overhead. Um so yeah, so of course, a lot of our bird species as a result, because predation came from the air and we don't have any mammalian predators in New Zealand naturally, a lot of them are ground nesters. So Kia are one of our ground nesting bird species. They're related to kakapo, so kakapo, kear, and kaka are all related um parrot species.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

When they fly though, that's they show off their colours then.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, exactly. And so they are incredibly bright under the wings, so you've got beautiful oranges and yellows and you know, and this beautiful blue as well. Um an amazing blue sort of on the tails, and so they're quite spectacular when you see them flying in the alpine areas, particularly, you know, with the snow. And they're brilliant flyers, so they'll catch the thermals up in the mountains and you know, just go straight up and over sort of the southern Alps. So they're amazing to see flying in the snow. Um very cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, and most people encounter them like in the alpine environment if they're like staying in alpine huts and things. I've heard stories of piers sliding down the roofs of alpine huts and just all sorts of mischief. Yeah. That seems to be seems to be the norm. But I'm I'm amazed that they go down to the beach. I didn't realise they went all the way down that low. That's that's really interesting. So they're across a range of habitat. The forested areas where they're fine, that's is it poder carp trees?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Is that forests? Yeah, yeah. So the forests are normally made up, they're associated very strongly with beech forest and remo forests in the South Island. And yeah, and they'll nest underneath either the roots of a lot of these trees in in big cavities or rocks. So they'll there'll be natural cavities that they'll use. And um, yeah, and those are the ones that we monitor.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Cool. And and were they always only in the South Island?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

No, so there's remains of Kiev and Kakpo up in the North Island. Yeah, so around sort of our cave systems um up north, but they um they moved down basically with the last ice age, so they haven't been in the North Island for about 14,000 years or something.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Oh, okay. So it's not our fault.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

No, no, no, no. No, that one wasn't, no.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

I like it. Yeah, well, we'll get into the various things that are our fault. I'm actually excited also to be talking about an island species because so far I've only had conversations with people working on the larger continental land masses. So it's cool because my beginning in conservation was on islands with Mauritius and all those typical problems. We'll get into those. Um so we've got we've got kiers, we've got them in forests. I'm imagining that these pictures I've seen of New Zealand forests are really like lush, dense forests, and then going up into alpine environments with snow-capped mountains. Yeah, it's amazing that they're that they're that adaptable that they can cover all those different areas. Do you notice that different individuals in different places are are doing different things? So are they like down at the beach they're doing more uh or is it like an age thing, or is it like down at the beach there's birds that feed on this more and then up here they're feeding on that more? Or is there a seasonal movement?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, well, there's a lot of questions around there about all of that. There's been some work done to show that there are lowland Kia versus Highland Kia, and they do eat different species up there, but you know, between the different places, and potentially that um, you know, may impact on that their their physique in a certain way sort of moving forward, but there's just a huge amount of movement also that goes on, and particularly when birds are juveniles, you know, and they flock and then they move quite vast distances. So um there's a lot of tracking work that's being done on them. We did some satellite tracking work on them back in 2009, and birds were over a two-day period were moving 90 kilometres, so yeah, they were they were doing sort of big we were actually trying to catch this one bird to to change the battery on the transmitter before it ran down. And so I was on a computer watching this this bird tracking and and on the radio talking to the field crew saying you you just have to go over the next range, which of course is you know you're you're scaling these massive peaks. Um and by the time they got there the bird had come back around to where they were previously.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, so we never used it.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Oh, you're right. I'm amazed that that you can even put a tracking device on them because I'd have thought that their friends would just poke holes in it and destroy it. But are you using like a backpack and how how does it survive?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah, well, it's it's one of those things that amazingly the the backpack transmitters that we um put on, they're very light, obviously, and they have a long aerial that sticks out. The aerial has to be very, very strong, so if it's too flimsy, it'll it'll just get snapped off. But amazingly, if it stays on within the first 24 hours or so, then they preen it into their feathers and and then it just stays on until the weak they have a weak link, um, and that'll fall off. Generally after a couple of years, depending on the type of transmitter that they've got.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, because you just think of all the birds, Kias would be, you know, the the mcalls are challenging because their beaks are so strong, yeah, and they just destroy destroy things, but yeah. Very cool. Well, and there's lots of stuff that I want to come back to about the threats and and the work, the amazing work that you're doing. Um, but I'm kind of curious because you you just said you came from you were working in a zoo, but also you hinted at working with carnivores before. So what's been your path to where you are now leading this organization? From was there was like from childhood even? Is there something that inspired you when you're growing up? Or how did you end up here?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Oh, well, I'm probably like millions of other people who work with animals. You know, I had a love of animals from day dot. I always wanted to be a vet, but I'm appalling at maths and chemistry, so that was never gonna happen, unfortunately. But I did attempt one year of university, you know, on the veterinary path before I realized that was never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

It's funny, it was too much blood for me. I wasn't into all the internal stuff. But but it like I guess you know, what when we were at uni school, it was kind of like that was kind of the option if you were into animals. It was that or a zoom.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah, yeah. Well, agriculture is a big thing over here as well, if you're into animals, but of course a very different sort of way of looking at at animals.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Um one year at uni as a as a vet student.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, and and dropped out really badly, and so went travelling, and then I had kid and and you know started developing a home and and I I'd also been a zookeeper for a couple of years. So I worked straight after I left uni, I actually worked in the lion safari park in Auckland, and that was a big open safari uh with about twenty-three lions and four tigers. So uh people would come, you know, and drive through and yeah, and and then you'd have a big line of cars and you'd be standing in a cage feeding out the lions when they were all over the cage, and you know, sort of the classic sort of African safari type sort of thing in the in West Auckland, which sounds kind of strange, but and it was like all of those zoos back in the this is in the 1980s, where they weren't very well managed. Animal welfare was a bit of a issue, and of course people would come to see cubs, and so there was a lot of breeding of animals and without much thought of where they would go afterwards. And all of that fortunately has stopped now in New Zealand. Um we we don't have those sort of wildlife parks, or very few nowadays. Yeah, so that it was it was also quite yeah, disheartening working in that system as well. But I I did love working with the lions themselves, and of course you develop those, you know, very close relationships with them, particularly if you've hand-raised them, which I hand-raised um um cubs. Um but then I ended up doing all the other stuff, you know, having a child and everything. Decided to go back to um the zoo when my daughter was ten, and you had to go and study to get back into the zoo industry, because there were things like health and safety that you had to think about now, which you didn't previously. Um and so I went and studied at Unitech, which was more of an applied university um situation, got a placement at Auckland Zoo, and that's when I ended up on the native section. I got a job on the native section and and became, you know, exposed to these three Kia, and then I immediately switched. I um I realised that I actually wanted to focus on these guys, and and I also wanted to um you know make their lives better, I guess. And they weren't being kept that well at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Well what was it about the Kia that attracted you? Was it was it their intelligence?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Uh or yeah, no, it's definitely their intelligence and also their their history. So, like I said before, two of the birds have been caught from the wild and been brought in to, you know, live the rest of their lives and they're very long-lived um parrot species. Fifty years is I think the oldest in captivity, and these guys would have been between 15 and 30 at that stage. Um you know, going from such a complex, you know, environment like the South Island to being put in a small enclosure and then just essentially, you know, forgotten the Fed and you know, all of all of those sort of basic needs are taken care of, but you know, that stimulation is not there for decades. And and it was when I started working with them, I started doing training techniques that I used on the large carnivores, um, that I realized just how much they were, you know, they key into it immediately and they wanted more. And and I realized that actually, you know, it wasn't just these birds, there were, I think at that stage there were about a hundred a hundred care in captivity in and probably all Kenzu was one of the better situations to be in at that stage. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

So I it's so intelligent, it becomes all the more apparent of their need for enrichment and and stimulation. Yeah, and and so and I mean all I I think of that in uh you you go, I I remember going to Tenerife and there's orca in captivity, and and because they're so massive, you think about well they these things these animals were swimming in, you know, or if they're if they were ever wild, they were swimming in oceans. And with little parakeets, you might not necessarily think about it that much because they're just love birds or something, but they still fly kilometers and kilometers and kilometers, and and their their environment in the wild is so rich. But but when it's when it's a keer or an orca, it's just so in your face because they're they've got so much potential, and you realize how short our care can be of what they could have.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah, absolutely, and of course, you know, the zoos back in the Day were all about you know providing entertainment for people, you know, and and for people to be able to see them and and you know keepers to be honest with you, you know, had a m million animals to get through each day and you really didn't have you know the ability to be able to spend a lot of time on one species. Um and I mean that's it's changed massively in New Zealand now and which is is great. But I realised at that time, which was twenty-five years ago now, that I had to go back and do some more study to find out firstly what was was happening to all the care in New Zealand facilities, and then also I guess as part of that to look at what was happening to them in the wild. Um, because part of being a good zookeeper was about you know advocating for the species that you hold in captivity, you know, to advocate for their wild cousins. Um and so that's what I did. So I ended up going around not all the New Zealand facilities, but the majority of the North, well, all of the North Island ones, and and then looked at the South Island ones to look at the different husbandry techniques that were happening, the different enclosure that birds were being held in, different social makeup of those birds, and and then look at that against the behaviours that the birds were exhibiting. So, in particular looking at the prevalence of stereotypic behaviours in birds. And and Kia showed a very high degree of stereotypic behaviours, which was really concerning, you know, as a as an indicator of welfare, poor welfare, that's you know, pretty well known.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

So it's interesting because I think initial concerns about welfare, which is I think, you know, during my I'm sure it's gone longer, but I think there's been dramatic changes over the past 30 or 40 years, where initially we're I think the the focus was all about physical and the the mental component. There's an interesting comparison here where also like with with humans we're there's an increasing awareness of mental health since since the pandemic. Um but it but it's like that that awareness and the need for enrichment has come has come after getting the physical component sort early. Um yeah, so so what what was the the the jump, what led to did you go directly from zoo involving cares to then to the non-profit sector or was there a stepping stone there?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Uh no, pretty much straight from there. So I I finished my degree in 2005, and as part of my research, I looked at what was happening to care in the wild and what sort of conservation measures um were happening and recognised that there wasn't a lot. And that I mean there were some great people doing some you know great work, but it was you know little bits here and little bits there, and and no one really had a big picture of what was happening with the species. And it was clear from you know talking to people that you know people had concerns and and they weren't being um you know addressed. So three other people came along with me in 2006, so the next year in February, we started up the Care Conservation Trust, and that was so that we could get charitable status and therefore we could apply for funds to then research what was happening in the wild. And and so we managed to secure our initial lot of funding to look at three different populations in the South Islands. So the the first one that I mentioned in Nelson Lakes that had you know previous data that we could go back to and compare, and then another population in Arthur's Pass in the Horden Valley. Yep, everyone knows Arthur's Pass.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Everyone knows that one.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah, if you want to see Kia, that's yeah, a great place to go. And and then another southern location down in the Borland Valley in Fjordland, which is a you know a quite a wilderness area.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

And Horde of the Rings is is what comes to mind with Fjordland.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Oh yeah, I mean it's it's just stunning country down there.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Um you you say you applied for funding, and the situation in New Zealand might be slightly different, but if I'm ca I'm kind of curious to know how how did you make that jump, and did was there was it how did you make that jump and and was it an an easy transition to get the organization going, or was there some challenge? It was a challenge. Yeah. Okay, tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, well, and it was a big learning curve as well. None of us had ever, you know, had any anything to do with you know starting an organization like that. And also people were very sceptical about who we were because to be honest with you, we were all based in Auckland at that stage. I'm originally from the North Island, and and we even had people who were concerned about the fact that um some of our group were were from overseas. So we one of one of our founding members is from South Africa, another from England, and and then there were two of us that were Kiwis. And because also three out of the four of us had zoo backgrounds, that was even more concerning. So we actually had one of um one of the key conservation groups in New Zealand here um start sort of talking that maybe we were we were setting up the trust so that we could poach Kia and sell them. So we had this we actually had to have meetings in the South Island with the with this particular group to assure them that that that's not what we were doing. And it it took quite a while to to you know build up that trust.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, it's interesting because it's not something, you know, it's I think you it's a classic story of having seeing a need, w having a desire to make something better and a passion to do it, and you never think about your the that your credibility is gonna be called into question. Yeah. So it's it's that it's fun to to hear that story, to know that thing. And then so then the big thing that also when you're in that enthusiastic stage of we're gonna change this thing is the money. So how did we get money?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

That was a big challenge. It took us a couple of years to secure our first funding, and so it was quite demoralizing, you know. My my work while all of this was happening as well. Uh I obviously left the zoo situation, and I was actually working for a another not-for-profit in the fundraising side of things. Um, so it was actually a community um uh reforestation project in Auckland at that stage. And so I I learned you know some of the skills of fundraising and who to approach and how to approach and funding applications, etc., which was really valuable. And um we applied for lotteries funding at the time, and but you actually have to be able to have already secured your you know half of the money that you need, um, which is just a massive call. And fortunately, we had a lovely couple of philanthropists in the South Island who loved Kia who helped us out, and so they gave us that first seed funding, which then enabled us to go to the lotteries funding, match it, and and we managed to raise $90,000 um dollars. And yeah, and then and then that gave us our three years funding for those three sites, um which kick started everything, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah, I yeah, it's it's amazing that that you get those philanthropists that see the opportunity and and their support makes tremendous like changes everything. It does, yeah. But I I like also the sort of the reflection on the fact that we get into this stuff because we love the animals and we want to make things better for them, and then find that we're doing you know, non non-profit work is is fundraising and is running an organization and is doing operations and all this other stuff. That when you were at the beginning and you just love the animals, you don't think about any of that. You don't realize what you're getting yourself into.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

No, not at all. I actually think that if you did, a lot of people would be completely put off, you know, and wouldn't actually go there because it's yeah, as you say, it's all about the animals to start with, and you know, you and you realize actually to get to that point, you've got to pull in an awful lot of other people and you know be able to get that idea and and that enthusiasm across to other people, um, and that's hard, it's hard work.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah. So what do you think? I mean, I've seen I've seen people that haven't made that transition, and I've seen people that are struggling and are kind of not giving up, but not really able to make the transition either. What do you think has been uh neutral useful attributes for you that has helped you go from just I love Kia to now running a successful organization with a uh fantastic group of staff?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Um I think well a lot of it has been recognition of having to com connect with these communities and recognising that you know things may not happen straight away that that it takes time, well, to build trust obviously for a start. Um and and also sometimes for that idea to take seed and and grow. And so what we did actually from basically from 2008 onwards, so before we got our first lot of funding, was that two of us from the trust would come down every year to the South Island. That was the other thing, because we were we were North Island based, it was quite difficult to sell, you know, to all these South Island communities who were living with the birds and and therefore had developed those relationships to have you know North Islanders come in. And we'd travel around the South Island for a couple of weeks and have meetings with communities, you know, to see what they needed and what what were the challenges for them and and how we could help them because you know potentially we could help raise funds to support some of the work that was already happening, or did they want to see some work happening, or did they want, you know, for us to completely leave them alone. And we were also working with the zoos as well at that stage, so trying to get sort of you know the word out there and and get people talking, because I think that's one of the main things is it's very difficult to get things off the ground until you've got people actually talking about it and considering it in their own time and then coming back to you on their own time as well. And then of course, along the way we connected up with those people that were doing, you know, some great work and and learning ourselves what you know was being done or the gaps in information, and then we we focused research on on um filling those gaps at that stage.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

So we we mentioned first island species on the podcast. Let's let's talk a bit about the the threats that they they're facing because I think it's it's very interesting to to look at islands and because the pattern is so consistent around the world. I I know on on the website you've got a list of the main threats, and I was kind of actually surprised to see that mammalian predators is it's top of the list, isn't it? It's that's right. I I'm right in thinking that that's the mission is but uh New Zealand takes a stance on predators and it is it aiming to be predator-free by 2050, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, yeah, and there's been a huge drive on that. So yeah, it was initially led by the government and and and a lot of communities have stepped up and are involved in predator-free activities, which is is great. So it's just one of those sort of it's a normal conversation to have, you know, about what you've been trapping and how you're trapping and all the rest of it. Um and it it's it's fantastic because it's a recognition that we're losing our species at a rapid rate because of these introduced species, which of course came in during you know that whole colonization of New Zealand, and you know, rabbits were bought in for, you know, food essentially and furs and everything, and then they got out of control, and so you know, you bring in ferrets to control the rabbits, and then they get out of control, and you know, and so the story goes, and it's been seen, as you said, a million times before on different uh islands. So we're now kind of overwhelmed with yeah, all of these introduced predators, and feral cats is another major one, um uh which is is really a tough one to deal with as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

What I find interesting is the fact that this normality that you you you mentioned where it's understood that no I mean nobody I mean no normal person enjoys killing species, killing animals, but it's a necessary step to protect the native wildlife. And and so you mentioned a couple of species, you I mean you ferrets and feral cats, but there there's other predators. Can you list off the predators and and if if it I mean I assume it's at the nesting stage, but if there's some other stage that they impact care?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, well they impact all stages. We get foraging birds, so as soon as they land on the ground, they're at risk of predation. So feral cats are a major issue for care. That's sort of been steadily increasing over the years, um uh just with people, you know, releasing their domestic cats and and then them breeding and and them, you know, becoming feral um populations. Stoats are a massive issue, so stoats would be right up there with feral cats.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

And and a stoat the stoats are a mustelid, they're like a weasel, but are they bigger than a weasel or bigger than a weasel but smaller than a ferret, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, so there's three mustelid species which are a major issue. So ferrets being the larger ones, they tend not to be such an issue because they like sort of open grassland areas and they're sort of lower down. Stoats are everywhere, and and they're the ones that that can you know take down any of our bird species. And then weasels are really small.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Um you do have weasels.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah, they're they're actually kind of cute.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

I mean they're not even related birds, they're just exactly and and I think this is the thing, is all of these species are great in their own, you know, ecosystems. Um, you know, they're in a balanced sort of harmony harmonious relationship with with everything else that's evolved around them. But yeah, we just unfortunately New Zealand was not a great place for them to not to be there, not meant to be there.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

In addition to those guys, rats and mice.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah, yeah. So rats and mice, rats tend to predate on eggs, but also for any other bird species, rats and mice are a nightmare. And and possums as well. So possums were bought over for the fur trade. They wreck our native forests, but they also take eggs, interfere with with you know, nesting birds and and um you know take over care cavities and everything in the ground, but uh they also take chicks as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Right, right. And often we don't think about the impact the species have. You mentioned it, the possum impact in the forest, but mice and rats are also seed predators. Yes, so they affect forest regeneration as well. That's there's quite a suite of antagonists there that's a lot for any species to to try and survive with all of those coming after you. Yeah, um right. So there's so there's a variety of work that's going into the removal of these invasive species.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

But but then you've got this really complex challenge where the Kias with their interest and uh you know the interest in novelty are also sometimes getting affected by the control of these predators, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

So what's going on there?

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Well, yeah, that's a huge challenge because they are so inquisitive. Anything new in their environment they'll check out. And we don't we don't do pest control ourselves because it's just such you know a specialist area and it's incredibly expensive as well. But there is a a lot of groups that do, which is fantastic. And you know, without it we'd have Kia extinct as well as you know pretty much every other species. But yeah, Kia do have a habit of getting into particularly ground-based pest control tools. So traps, bait stations, that sort of thing is is a real challenge. So we've actually developed a document along with you know some specialists in the area, so with Doc and with some other um other groups that that work specifically in that area to look at particular devices and how they can be care-proofed. And that's a challenge because what you tend to find is that one trap that care into in one area, they definitely are in another area and they're getting caught in them. And so the levels of care-proofing on some traps in some areas is just you know off the scale.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Um and um is there something where you can put them out, put the traps out, but don't set them? And then the Kia kind of get bored of things if it doesn't prove interesting and the first couple of times they look at it?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah, so that's that's a big one, and there's been quite a bit of work actually that's been happening in the Mituki Tucky Valley, actually, um, just over from where I am. I'm based in Queenstown and and the Matuki's over in Wanaka. And that's a site that we've been involved in since 2016, and a number of other groups who are involved in pest control also work in the same valley, which is great. And whenever new devices are put out, they'll lay them and not set them for an extended period of time. The only problem, of course, is that every single year you get a new cohort of young birds coming through. So it's all new again. And um and you may have one individual that starts getting into traps, and particularly if they're lured, so if if they've got you know some sort of an attractant for the target species, then Kia potentially might be interested and see it as a food source, and then everything has to be unset again until that bird's sort of moved on.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Wow. Wow, it's a challenging species to protect.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

But these cohorts, and this kind of leads to the the next threat, these these cohorts of juveniles that are going around, are they just kind of roaming around looking for trouble? And and do they continue to do that for a number of years before they sort of do they do they get power off and then get business like when they got kicked out?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, it's yeah, it's just sort of like you know, a bunch of teenagers, you know, zipping around everywhere and and just trying everything out and pushing the limits. And yeah, and unfortunately, if there's something to get into, you know, there's likely to be, you know, at least one of them get into it. So one of the other major threats we've got is lead poisoning, and that's specifically to do with, you know, interacting with with anything that they can manipulate, and lead's very soft on buildings, and and then ingesting it because it's sweet, um, as well. And and we've found in areas like Arthur's Pass village, which has a whole pile of old buildings which are riddled with lead, that we were getting all the young juvenile males in particular with lead levels right through the roof. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

So that that's the flashing on the roofs, is it also males as well? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So the nail heads, the old nail heads. So we've actually gone through, we've been working with the community over the last three years or so now, and Arthur's Pass is is pretty much lead-free now, which is is fantastic. Yes, we've we removed lead from um over I think 110 properties in there now, so that's pretty much everything. And we've just been in actually doing some more lead surveillance. So what we do is um we actually identified particular areas in in Doc also does this work where you catch and banned birds, but then you also take blood. And test them for lead levels. And Arthur's pass was always through the roof. Um, no pun intended. And then when we've just gone back in literally in the last couple of weeks, after removing all of the the lead from the buildings, the lead levels are low. They're still there, but they're very low. Which is the first time ever that we've had that result.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Yeah, yeah. Is that is that just understand that fully that's a new group of birds that are just not as exposed? Because once they've got it in their system, they can't get rid of it, can they?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

No, but what happens is when we blood lead test them, we only get a window of about three weeks that it's circulating in the blood before it gets deposited in the blood bones and organs. So we can we can tell if they're being exposed to it at that period of time. Um to get longer exposure, then you'd look at the feathers or the bones or the organs, and obviously we can't get the bones or organs unless the bird's dead.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Um that that's a great success, then that's really you can see that the impact of the work, which is is a nice thing in cultivation back if you turn it around that quick.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

It's fantastic. Well it is, and it's I mean, we're we're sort of, you know, very cautious about that at this point in time because what we've found in the past is that then birds will find another source and then we'll get the levels going up. But it's a really good, you know, way to find where those sources are and and that they actually still exist. One of the other other things that we're doing with this research is we're working with Doc and Otago University in this situation, is we get the samples of not only bloods but feathers, and then the samples of building material and ammunition that's been used and that contains lead. And then uh we can get an idea if these birds have uh lead poisoning, where that source is coming from. And so in some areas it's very much coming from ammunition, so lead shot versus buildings.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

And is is lead shot still a standard thing for Gunzah? Because in in California where there's California condor, and other in other states they're moving away from lead and to to other other, I don't know, other materials.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah, yeah, well that's what we're hoping that will will happen here. Um yeah, but as you can imagine, it's it's very much you know it's a slow process in that for the public, you know, what's available for them to buy, firstly in the shops, you need to have that legislation in pay in place, and you also need to have those alternatives available for them as well. And the awareness that it is an issue.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah. That the in the last few minutes we've just covered a whole range of things that. And I I want to just ask, are you uh do you now consider yourself a a roof specialist? Do you know things about roofs that you never expected to know about? I imagine you do.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Well, yeah, not me personally, but yeah, we've definitely got members of our team which which know everything about washers and and yeah, screws and and different types of of alternatives to lead. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

But you even know they exist, which is a start like more than I do. So it just it just entertains me because I think it's like, well, okay, so you love pirates, and you know, the key, and then you find yourself like learning about roofing and lead, and then you're talking about outreach to about you know, lead lead shot, and then you're talking about legislation to change that. So it's just how diverse conservation is and how many different things you have to suddenly know about to move the needle, yeah. Yeah, and then we've and then we're talking about predator predator control before that, so that's yeah, pretty amazing. And that ties that links sort of into the next thing where um Kia, or at least historically, and maybe I think still now have been considered a nuisance. This inquisitive nature of this gets them into trouble. And imagine if you've got animals pulling open your trash cans or pulling the roof apart or whatever, or dismantling your car, that can get pretty pretty tiresome pretty quick, I imagine. And you talked about the bounty. What are the sort of contemporary challenges that that you find? What how do Kia annoy people these days?

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Well, yeah, it still goes on, unfortunately. We have a lot of conflict situations, and um yeah, they they tend to well, they happen every year. We'll get sort of the a new cohort of young birds coming through and and being very mobile, they move around everywhere and and then they just go and check everything out. And one of the classic situations we had, and this was years ago, it was one of our first conflict situations, was up in Kiteritari at the top of the South Island, a little beach community, and we ended up with about seven Kia come down into a caravan park right by the beach, and so there were kayaks there and caravans and everyone enjoying the summer sun and all the rest of it, and these birds just called mayhem over a period of months pretty much. And so we actually got called in with the Department of Conservation and we held a big community meeting there because the birds would come down and and the interesting thing about care is their main periods of activity, they're sort of more of a crepuscular species, you know, late in the evening and actually all through the night, particularly if it's a full moon, they can be very active, yeah. And then in the dawn again, they tend to when it gets warm, uh they tend to sort of just you know chill out a little bit more. But these birds are coming down in the late evening and just landing on people's caravan roofs, pulling out wires and rubber, and if people went outside and yelled at them, of course, that caused even more excitement for the birds.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

So they're excited.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

So and there are bird and there are dogs yapping around everywhere at the birds, which of course the birds thought was fantastic, and um and the community, interestingly enough, were quite divided. It divided the whole community. We had people who love the birds and were really excited that they were there, and then there were other people who wanted to go out and you know get rid of them. Um and so we had a a meeting in the actually in the local pub, which I'd never advise doing, actually, if you've got people who who who are you know quite emotional about things, it's not a probably the best place to have a meeting. And we would have had it was close to 60 people there, so it was a a decent group of people. And um in the end we decided to actually catch those birds up with Doc and move them. And it was only just because you know there were th you know threats to the birds at that particular point in time. And the caravan park was you know, was um had lost everyone pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

They'd lost business because of the kiosk, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yeah, yeah, they were losing a lot of business. People were just leaving.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Um conflict is still still an issue now. What do you and do you and so you're trying coming in trying to keep the peace and and raise away with with people that are impacted?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah, it's quite different now. So that was our one of our first major incidents, and it was a big learning curve, you know, sort of the recognition that you had to take people seriously, you know. For us, of course, it was like, well, you know, they're a bird and and you know, this is this is going to be a you know transitional situation, and they will move on, but actually they can cause a lot of damage in the interim. And so we we've actually now set up at that point in time, so that was back in 2018, 2014, we actually set up a a program to deal with conflict situations, and that runs today. And we go in, one of the first things we do is we we go and we talk to the people involved. Um, if it's a large group of care coming in in a in a in a big issue, like it might be in a forestry situation where birds are coming in, damaging big, you know, earth moving or or logging equipment, you know, um having a go at hydraulic, you know, um tubing and wiring and all that sort of thing. So it's a real health and safety issue as well. We had one one lot of care that came through and caused about $30,000 worth of damage in a night. So those situations we have to take seriously. And then we'll go in with the crews and um we'll catch and ban those birds so that we can then start monitoring how they're moving and and the crews get to know who the birds are and they can alert us to a situation. Right. And what we found was that these crews were actually in the communities who are involved actually started to identify with the birds, and you know, they they were named, these birds were named, so they could say, you know, Bob's coming in and causing mayhem, you know, and they actually develop a relationship with them. And all of a sudden the we had forestry um setting up guidelines to change the way they operated when birds came in. And it was fantastic. We were actually now we've got these big research projects in the forestry areas, and we've got one happening at the moment which has spanned numerous years, looking at how Kia utilised the plantation forestry and you know, versus native forests. And and then looking after those birds that that use those areas for nesting as well. So they'll actually stop all activity in an area where birds are nesting, which is yeah, a massive um yeah, it's it's it's fantastic to see.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Do you attribute that? I mean, New Zealand has a remarkably high level of support for conservation, just among the general public. I think it's gotta be as a night nation, it's gotta be world leading, I think, in in I've seen stats of like 90% of people care for wildlife. I don't I mean, of course, how that translates to action is different. But would you do you attribute that to this acceptance by and support by the forestry to in part to that, or or do you think it's because Kia are so likable in in and once you get to know them, that could be a factor? Or what is it that I mean it led to this remarkable shift?

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Well, I I think it's a little bit of all of that, but I think it's really just that sort of inherent, you know, need for people to connect with with nature and and just not having the opportunity to do it or knowing how to do it. So if you give them the opportunity to do it, like you know, normally conservation is something that people do over here and it's you know greenies that do it, and and you know, they're all a bit boring. But when actually people are doing it, you know, in these situations where it's this is just normal life, you know, people are getting on and doing their work or living their lives and everything, and then you get a you know, our team and doc would go out and we'd catch these birds up, and they get the the opportunity to handle these birds while we're banding them and taking bloods and everything, and they get it close and personal. It's I mean, it's wonderful. It's just you know, those sort of opportunities are gold. And I think it's really important to include those communities into those experiences so they can get a little bit of you know the buzz that that we all get on a on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

Um we we do working with with parrots. One of my first conversations with was with Rocio who works with Andean cats, and she's seen one once in 22 years.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

I can't imagine that kind of level of dedication.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

But that's why parrots are amazing because we get this, you know, you they're so visible and loud and they're great.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

So that's an example of where a conflict situation has been resolved in a really positive way. Are there are there examples where people take matters into their own hands and get rid of Kia? Is that does that still happen as a problem? I mean, it was as a nationally supported program a hundred years ago or whatever it was, but uh but even now is there still a threat from these nuisance birds that get kind of banged on the head?

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Yeah, yeah, and that there's occasionally we have prosecutions as a result, and so Department of Conservation will prosecute people for shooting gear or killing them in some other way. It does still go on, unfortunately. Fortunately, now I think people will call, you know, this sort of behaviour out, whereas, you know, particularly in small communities, things either get covered over and we don't talk about it, or people will go, actually, no, this is not, you know, appropriate behaviour and um and they call them out. And I think we're getting more of that now where people actually stand up and and you know become advocates for the birds. So yeah, that's great to see. It's it's it's still sad that you know that has to happen, you know, that people are still going out there and you know, doing this to the birds, but it's really good that people are calling them out. Um one of the interesting things we have is we have an education program that's been going on uh for a long time now, but is now in a more formal situation that we have a school teacher going around and doing a roadshow and talking to some of the smaller communities. And when you go into these communities and you're talking to children, you get a really good gauge of how the community feels about care because of course kids, little kids are going to you know mirror what their parents, what they're hearing at home and everything. And so you'll get quite a mix of of of discussions that are going on with these little children, and it then of course it's very easy to then you know provide them with the right information that they can then go home to their families with and so we find quite quite um quite strong shifts that are happening in communities, you know, when we do that as well, because it's you reach out to the children who then become advocates for the birds and recognise that you know what they're hearing maybe maybe does need to be questioned sometimes, which is good.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So we've covered a range of different threats there. Is there any others that are significant for Kia?

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Well, I mean, lead poisoning and predation would be, you know, two of the major issues, conflict obviously. I mean, there's sort of the incidentals like vehicle strike. Um that's mainly because of course birds are encouraged onto roadways by people feeding them, and and feeding is one of the key key threats as well. And that's one of one of the things that we're trying to work with communities to actually keep Kia wild and not to encourage them into these areas.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

Right. I think I've seen signs of like don't feed the Kia, yeah. That's interesting because you think of that with like bears. Yes. But you don't really I didn't really think about that as that attracting Kia into a trap where then they're gonna get hit by a car, basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

It's really yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

The feeding of Kia actually is the root of all of conflict situations. I think in every single conflict situation that we've gone to, and when we actually sort of, you know, talk back to why are the birds there in the first place, we find that people are feeding them. Whether inadvertently, like they're feeding their pets outside, or you know, they happen to have a great veggie garden that the birds can get into, or whatever, you know, compost heavy, whatever. Um feeding is always at the root of it. And the same with lead poisoning, you know, you feed the birds, they then don't spend their time up in the in the mountaintops or the herb fields or you know, wherever it might be foraging for themselves, which takes a long period of time. You know, they're full of chips and and pies and you know, all the rest of it. And and then they start sort of you know mucking around on people's roofs and getting into lead and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

You said that lead is sweet. Does that so that when they eat it, there's that kind of reinforcing eating the eating of lead. Is that yeah? It's interesting that they're I never really thought about lead being tasty.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

No, no, and I mean I personally don't know that it's sweet. This is only obviously what I've been told.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

But yeah, you have it that you have.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

No, no, but apparently it's sweet, and but also it's very malleable, so the birds can easily manipulate it, they rip off great big chunks, and actually when they go to the wildlife hospitals to get um tested and x-rayed, they can actually see big lumps of lead inside them, which of course then gets absorbed, you know, into the bloodstream, and and they need treatment. So there's a couple of great wildlife hospitals in the South Island, um the South Island Wildlife Hospitals and Christchurch, and so that gets a lot of the birds coming through, and they do collation therapy on the birds to to try and flush this lead out of them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Wow, it's a very expensive and long process for the birds.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Yeah, yeah, I bet. I bet that's I mean it's yeah, very involved. Um you you were talking about the how feeding of kios attracts them to different places, but then you mentioned veg veg gardians and compost heaps, which I never really thought about feeding. Are there things are there key-proof things that are normal in New Zealand that would be bizarre for me if I was to arrive? Like that that I mean it's kind of hard to ask you because you you because they're normal to you, but like in the States and Canada, you go places and there's bear-proof garbage bins, yeah, rubbish bins. Uh are there things like that in place in New Zealand that the the they've the systematic change because of Kia?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Yeah, rubbish bins are a big one, and so they need to be weighted lids, and so they'll actually have a weighted a weight sort of attached to the inside of the lid, so because of course you have the rubbish trucks coming along picking them up, and then they need to actually shut and stay shut. Um people used to put you know weights on the top.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

So did the Kia then push the stones, uh the weights off the bins?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Yeah, and you can actually see some really great footage if you Google of Kia doing that in Mount Cook, so Araqi Mount Cook. And it's amazing, you've got a a a you know, a one kilo parrot essentially being able to push its body weight or more off these bins. So they can be very persistent when they when they want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

We will link to some videos in the show notes, and I and if I can I get some media, we'll we'll insert some media in in this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

So Kia Conservation Trust started in 2006, it's been growing for 20 years. During that time, what has been the highlight for you? What's been something you're most proud of the success for your team?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Oh, well, well, there's there's so many moments really. I think I think being uh being accepted by these communities and um and some of the the work that's come out of it that was completely unexpected. So, you know, communities getting behind us and and then taking whatever we've started further, you know, is always great. And the forestry is a great example of that where you know we started in a conflict situation, and then you know, those birds have now become very precious to them, which is fantastic. I think also, you know, the lead removal um project, that's a really exciting project because you know, unlike predator control, which is ongoing and you know, which is as soon as you stop doing anything, you know, they'll they'll come back en masse and cause it. Issues, as soon as you get rid of lead from the environment, it's gone for good. And yeah, and I mean it's massive because um the South Island's huge, and we've got there's huts right in the outback areas, but there's also you know all of these small villages and you know containing huge amounts of lead. And it's been a process of getting communities on board because you know uh often if you say you know we're coming in here, this this project is free to you, we just need access to your buildings. It's actually hard to sell you know something that's free because people always think that there's you know there's a hook in there somewhere that eventually that it they are going to have to pay. And it truly is a free you know uh project um for them. So getting people on board and then you know seeing that enthusiasm and and then the success when we start blood lead testing birds and we're actually finding that the blood lead levels have have dropped massively, um that's super exciting. Um the other thing is that every two years we have a Kia summit and that's bringing everyone together. So there is you know ourselves, Department of Conservation, local IWI universities, researchers. We also have people coming from overseas as well. We've had a number of of the zoos, Cincinnati Zoo, Denver Zoo coming in and um you know presenting at our conferences. Our captive holders over here, so all of the zoos come as well. And it's a really fantastic opportunity for all of us to share, you know, the challenges that we've got, ask those hard questions in a in a group that's safe, you know, and um and we all work towards you know solving um those um challenges and those you know really critical questions about conservation. And and then that sort of gives us all the you know the enthusiasm and and those connections as well, and that massive networking opportunities to go out for the next two years and you know go and do our stuff and then all come back together again. So yeah, they're they're fantastic opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Yeah, really, really good. Okay, last question, because I I love that we're we're ending on high the thing about the 20 years and the successes, the remarkable successes you've had, I think, in in such a relatively short amount of time, because we didn't mess it all up in 20 years, it took a lot longer. Um, what do you see in the in the next five to ten years for Kia Conservation Trust? What are some of the big things on the horizon for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Um well recently the Kia Recovery Group has been developed. So that's um a lot of our native species have recovery groups that that Department of Conservation um you know put together. And the Kia Recovery Group started up a couple of years ago, and we have representatives from Department of Conservation from Itahu, which is the local EWE here, um, and also from the Kia Conservation Trust. And the great thing is that we're all get together, all looking through different lenses, obviously, and have developed a whole range of projects. So there's there's 50 plus projects that have been identified as needing to be worked on. So they might cover education advocacy or monitoring or pest control or um you know also connecting, you know, uh through Motorang Muldi as well. So actually, you know, everyone being able to partner up and have a voice in there. And then we all go off and we, you know, um then drive you know the different parts um that that you know we take on. So the Care Conservation Trust is specifically looking at education advocacy, plus um some of our monitoring sites as well, the lead removal and that sort of thing. And because we've all got different strengths, um we can then maximize the work that's happening. So I think having that that really key partnership between us and Doc and Iwi, so not just Naitahu but Tito Ehu, which are seven smaller Iwi at the top of the south, gives a lot more power, I think, for care conservation initiatives to to happen. And so I see that you know that's gonna really help, you know, coordinate and and drive um care conservation initiatives over the next five, ten plus years, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:50

Yeah, I think it's an amazing position to be in to have that that amount of support that everybody's pushing in the same direction. It's very enviable, very yeah. I think it sounds fantastic. And I I hope that within five to ten years I get myself out there to see it for myself. Um I think it's just amazing what you and the team have have done. Um thank you so much for your time today for everything you do for my favorite part.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

Thanks, no, really good to talk to you.