Skurnik Unfiltered

Pedro Parra

• Skurnik Wines & Spirits • Season 1 • Episode 10

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“What I’m looking for is very personal. It’s like a sound in the wine. And that sound is defined by something I love. Like a musician, I was always looking for my personal sound, and that sound comes easy with País.” – Pedro Parra 

Pedro Parra is a world-renowned winemaker, saxophone player, and vineyard consultant from Chile—and one of the few individuals with a PhD from the Paris Center of Agriculture with a specialization in terroir. Under his eponymous brand, Pedro Parra y Familia Wines, Pedro is a leading member of the "New Chile" wine movement, crafting incredibly precise and artisanal wines that celebrate his country's underappreciated terroir.

In this episode, he and Cody Stephenson taste a flight of wines from Itata and discuss Pedro’s journey of pushing the limits, exploring the opposites, and discovering “the point of light” through revolutionary Chilean winemaking.


Wines tasted in this episode:


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Pedro Parra:

What I'm looking for is something very personal. It's like a sound in the wine. And that sound is defined, by something I love. Like a musician, I was always looking for my personal sound. And that sound comes easy with País.

Harmon Skurnik:

Hey, this is Harmon Skurnik, and welcome to another episode of Skurnik Unfiltered. With me right now is Cody Stevenson, who is our portfolio manager for the world.

Cody Stephenson:

A lot of different countries in the world. Today we're talking about Chile, though. Pedro Para.

Harmon Skurnik:

We are talking about Chile, but when you think of Chile, you think of massive production, inexpensive Cabernet for the world that's mechanically harvested and made in mass production. What we have assembled are really small growers in a country that's not really known for that. And I think Pedro Para perhaps epitomizes that, right?

Cody Stephenson:

Yeah, I think that Pedro has this incredible arc as a producer and just a great wine mind. Starting in Chile, moving to Paris to become a jazz musician, realizing that was going to be a little bit harder than he originally thought, and moving into consulting, got his PhD in terroir from the Institut Agronomique.

Harmon Skurnik:

There aren't too many PhDs in terroir in the world.

Cody Stephenson:

Yes, there are not too many. I think he's one of five or six, and certainly the best known here in the US. And then you see his trajectory working for some of the best wineries around the world and coming back to Chile to Concepción, the south of Chile, one of the most rural areas in South America, a place that many large wineries have pulled out of, who used to have vines planted there 10, 15, 100 years ago because it just wasn't profitable for them. But for Pedro, this is his birthplace, and they're lucky to have some truly amazing terroir in Itata, with old vines dating back 150 years, 200 years old of Cinsault and País.

Harmon Skurnik:

In addition to being a great winemaker, he's sought out by many producers around the world as a consultant. He'll go there and examine the soils and give lots of advice to winemakers. And he's really revered around the world, isn't he?

Cody Stephenson:

Yeah, and I think that's a lot of people's introduction to Pedro is his consulting work and these seminars that he's hosted around the world, these deep dives on terroir. Pedro says that he makes better wine every single vintage. He comes with a soil and viticulturist perspective, and the wines speak for themselves. And I'm really excited for the future of Pedro's wines.

Harmon Skurnik:

You mentioned in the beginning that he was a jazz musician, and I know he loves jazz, as do I. I've been a jazz lover all my life, and I love the fact that some of his wines are named after the greats in the jazz world, like 'Trane, Monk, Miles, the absolute epitome of American jazz. And it's kind of cool that he pays homage to those greats.

Cody Stephenson:

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how he first discovered jazz as a young man in Chile, but he was bitten by the jazz bug and traveled halfway around the world to pursue a career, and all of his wines for his single vineyards are inspired by the stylistic element of each of those jazz musicians. And every time he's in New York, he's always down in the West Village trying to catch a show.

Harmon Skurnik:

Why don't we just tune in now and listen to your interview with Pedro Para, the PhD in terroir?

Cody Stephenson:

Pedro, welcome back to New York City. We've missed you. It's good to see you.

Pedro Parra:

Thank you.

Cody Stephenson:

So who are you, Pedro Para?

Pedro Parra:

I am a Chilean guy, Chilean-born, who still lives in Chile, very passionate on music, on basketball, and wine. And terroir, of course.

Cody Stephenson:

Not necessarily in that order.

Pedro Parra:

Ha! That is the order.

Cody Stephenson:

Where are you from in Chile?

Pedro Parra:

In the south of the country. So, Conceptión is very much like Oregon, but in my country. So, cloudy, rainy, great terroir, beautiful.

Cody Stephenson:

And where do you make wine?

Pedro Parra:

In the same place. About one hour from home, it's called Itata. It's an appellation, it's a super appellation, coastal, very windy, and it's the most European place in the South American hemisphere for making wine. It's dry farmed, it's high density, it's gobelet, bushvines, very, very old vineyards on granite, basically.

Cody Stephenson:

When you were growing up in Concepción, were there winemakers in Itata or were there just grape growers?

Pedro Parra:

So, Itata is the first place that Spanish people planted 100 years ago. So there is a very old tradition, but they're fantastic viticulturists, so the vines are incredible. There's no traditional winemaking, so you don't find wines. And the reason is, there's one very weird reason, is religion. People in that place, you know, it's a very poor place in the middle of the country. They're evangelic, and they cannot drink alcohol. So through three, four generations, they completely lost the ability of making wine because it's forbidden by God. So they make grapes and they don't make wine. It's super weird.

Cody Stephenson:

So much of wine's history is missionaries coming, and you need to make wine for the masses and for the weary travelers. So the evangelic, they weren't making wine. So, how did you get into wine?

Pedro Parra:

I get into wine because I wanted to be a jazz musician. I was a saxophone player. I'm talking many years ago. I was like 25, 26, 27, and I wanted to travel. I got a grant to move to France to do a master's degree on precision agriculture. Sounds weird, but my goal was to be a saxophonist. So I went into the program in Montpellier, and I was not good enough. I was good for Chile, not good in France. So basically I quit very fast, and then I was doing my masters, and that's how I ended on wine.

Cody Stephenson:

And then how long were you in France?

Pedro Parra:

First time, two years, second time for my PhD on terroir, five years, four years. So totally seven years.

Cody Stephenson:

So, when did the academic terroir side change to winemaking?

Pedro Parra:

During my PhD, because my first year in Paris was basically academic and I didn't like it. Numbers, you know, you need to explain everything. And then the second year, my professor asked me to go to Bordeaux and Burgundy, and I, for the first time, I ran into this kind of vigneron style of life, and I really love it very much. And then you understand that you cannot explain by numbers, terroir or wine or taste. So in the second year, it was mostly in Burgundy. I changed totally my approach, my personal approach on the problem, and I changed totally the approach of my PhD research. So I became more like a vigneron research guy, more than a science research. So that's the second year, 2002 in Burgundy.

Cody Stephenson:

And when was your first vintage in Itata?

Pedro Parra:

2012. Time is flying.

Cody Stephenson:

Time is flying, and you moved to Skurnik in 2019. The way that you talk about tasting, I feel like has shaped a lot of people, the way a lot of people think and you know talk about wine in terms of mouthfeel. How does that impact your own winemaking?

Pedro Parra:

A lot, I mean, it's everything. It's very simple. When you are trained in in Europe, it's about the mouthfeel. The aromatic is important. But you know, working there, you realize that when we have a taste with your client, the aromatic takes 10 seconds. Okay, good, bad, next. And then the the energy on the palate is everything. So you are training like that. And then, little by little, I was feeling that my palate was better than my aromatic. I know, now, something. I need to get an operation because I don't breathe very well. So that's why, basically. But my palate was always more reliable to me. So, you know, one taste, two, 100, 1,000 tastes, and you train your palate very well. And as a consultant, you need to be like that. You need to recognize if the problem comes from clay or comes from sand or something, or the rock is too hard, or there is too much fertility, or something like that. And that basically is something that you get in the palate, not in your nose. So as a consultant, it's my year 23 now, it's a lot of time. So you get you get trained basically. It's very fun because the other day I was with Raj Parr, who is aromatic, incredible. And my side is to be in the mouthfeel. So it's a good complement.

Cody Stephenson:

Well, we should taste these wines.

Pedro Parra:

Sure. We have three wines. Why these three wines? One is a País, the other one is a Cinsault, and the last one is a Chardonnay. The País is because, for many years, I got the idea that the País was a secondary grape for me. Like, beautiful, but not super interesting. And in the last three years, I changed my opinion. I changed totally my opinion. I work a lot in Spain. I was very influenced by different friends of mine in Spain about, you know, maybe the Grand Cru is the País, and not the Cinsault. So in the last three years, I've been putting a big amount of energy on the País program, and the results are— I'm impressed. I mean, maybe they are right. So, how did I do that? Number one, I took care of the vineyards. Number two, I bought some vineyards of País, and number three, I am exploring my winemaking approach. You know, my winemaking approach was in one way, like very similar to Cinsault. And now I realize that maybe that was a mistake. So there is a switch. In 2024, there's a big, big, big switch. And the three new wines come into the market in '25.

Cody Stephenson:

Well, I feel like there's been a lot of big shifts in your your winemaking. When we first started with you, with your own eponymous project, you talked about how you were less of a winemaker and your focus was in the vineyard. And now, tasting with you the last time we were in Chile, you talk about the shift that you've had from wanting to make wines that were like Burgundy, and now realizing over vintages and vintages that you're forcing something into that; you need to take a different approach.

Pedro Parra:

You're right. And what is difficult, and I think that you need to get old to understand the problem. That's why when you're young, it's more difficult.

Cody Stephenson:

Y ou're young, Pedro.

Pedro Parra:

I'm 55. I'm not that young. So, the problem is that you have a goal. You need to have a goal in your mind. You know, my goal is to make drinkability, complexity, delicate, red fruit-oriented, wines with elegant minerality. So that is a goal. Basically, my heart is in Burgundy, so it's Burgundy. So, the question is, how do you get to that point? Number one, you need to have a vineyard. So I was good on the vineyards because it's what I do for a living. Number two, you need to be a good viticulturists. I am a good viticulturist. The people who work with me, normally older than me, are better than me. So the vineyards are great. And the final point is how are you going to cook the eggs in the winery, you know, to make the wines. And that is the difficult part, the intellectual part of the problem. And the problem is that, when you travel a lot like me, you realize that 90% of the wines on the planet are made basically in the same way. 10% here, 10% here, but basically it's the same recipe, you know, the international Bordeaux recipe that goes to Italy, to many places. In my case, I was basically working with the Burgundy approach, 2013, '14, '15, because I wanted to make a Burgundian style. And that approach, very specific on winemaking, was not working. It was, in fact, horrible. And I didn't know why. And then I worked in Spain, in a place very similar to it, called Gredos with Commando G, he's a client of mine. Very, very close friends of mine. And they were making the wines that I was dreaming to make myself. And I was wondering, "Why do they do that, and my wines are undrinkable, horrible wines? Never drink an old bottles of my wines.

Cody Stephenson:

They weren't undrinkable. There was an austerity to them that I feel like— I mean, tasting the Vinista, it's a light, fresh, but it's giving, it has fruit. It's like, you know, drinkability.

Pedro Parra:

A drinkability at the end. And so, working with Commando G, I realized that my approach, the Burgundian approach, was a mistake. And then I asked them, "Guys, what do you do?" And the answer was very simple. "You know, we do the opposite of Burgundy." So that's the answer. And then I came back home and start to think, "What does that mean, the opposite." And that was in 2017. And I am still exploring the opposite. Every year, pushing the limits, trying to find something extra. Because at the end, Cody, what I'm looking at is something very personal, it's like a sound in the wine. You know, like a musician, you listen to somebody, and there is a sound with great musicians. Jimi Hendrix has a sound, Peter Gabriel, Sting, they have a sound. And it's imperfection, but you recognize the sound. The great wines on the planet have a sound. There are not many, but they have a sound. I was always looking for my personal sound in the wine, and that sound is almost there. And that sound is defined, by something I love, that this wine has it, it's called the Point of Light. And the Point of Light is not the color in the wine, it's the light that the wine is showing to you, you know. And that point is a balance, and the balance is very personal. Different people, different balance. So my balance is my personal balance, my sound, and I am looking for that Point of Light. And what I figured out is that the Point of Light comes easy with País. And Cinsault, you need to work harder to get the point of light. The Vinista País is a village wine. I make like 10,000 bottles, it's a blend from three vineyards, and it's a wine of pleasure with a beautiful Point of Light, easy to drink. Vinista is basically fermented on concrete. I used to use 100% of whole clusters in that wine. Now, depending on the vineyard, I go from 30 to 60 percent. Then the élevage is doing on concrete, basically.

Cody Stephenson:

And walk us through the names here. Vinista is "vignaron"?

Pedro Parra:

Yeah, it's a Spanish slang. It's a word that doesn't exist. It's because my son, Felipe, one day was talking to somebody when he was very young and said, "What does your father do?" He didn't know "My father is a winemaker." He said, "My father is a vinista," and that word doesn't exist. But it's like a vigneron slang, you know, something like that. And then this Monk. So, Monk is a very important wine in the winery because it's the first Cru I made in 2017. At that time, I was renting a vineyard. That vineyard was an incredible vineyard, but it was rented, and the owner was a very weird guy. A very difficult guy, you know, like an old farmer, difficult. And I was very frustrated because the potential of the terroir was incredible, but the viticulture was kind of lazy, and even if I was renting that vineyard, I never could put my prints on the vineyard. And so after that, I decided to change in 2019 to another vineyard. And to be honest, the vineyard was very good, but I was never super impressed. And then what happened is, life happened. I got the possibility to buy back that vineyard. So now I am the owner. So now Monk, which used to be a very good wine for me, should be an incredible wine for me in the future because now I own the property, and that property comes also with 2,000 vines of País, which is incredible País, so that would make a Cru for sure. So I'm super happy. The future of Monk is bright, and the name comes from Thelonius Monk, one of the fathers of the jazz, and that's why it's a very important wine to me. I'd say I made about 3,000 bottles of that wine. It's 6,000 vines. We count vines in Itata because the surface area is not important. It's 1.51 hectares of property, very Burgundian, so every property is very tiny. It's 6,000 vines of Cinsault and 2,000 vines of País. It's a great thing. I'm super excited. The last wine, and I picked that wine because it's very important to me, is the Chardonnay. And why is the Chardonnay important? It's because I love Chardonnay.

Cody Stephenson:

Who doesn't?

Pedro Parra:

But I'm very picky about Chardonnay. And very picky means that I find many, many Chardonnays not super exciting. And the wines that are exciting are, to me, incredible. And so for 11 years, I was looking for a vineyard to make Chardonnay. I didn't want just to make a Chardonnay. I want to make a Chardonnay from a vineyard that I was impressed by. I never found that vineyard in Chile, and I found this vineyard in 2021. It's a vineyard in the south of Concepción, it's Malleco, which is not my appellation. My goal is to make Itata wines. And I made a wine; the wine was only made for me, basically. I made 100 cases, it's nothing. But it was like a trial, you know. I wanted to check what happened. And I think I have a long experience with Chardonnay. I collaborated with Jean-Marc Roulot since 2015. We're very close friends, so I got to learn the Chardonnay view approach of Jean-Marc. And so I did this one with the help of Jean-Marc. In fact, I was pressing the wine with Google Meet here, you know, with Jean-Marc in the— it was a trial, and I am super happy with the trial. I think it's an incredible Chardonnay. I mean, I never tried something like that in Chile, and I only made the 100 cases. I get 50 for me now. You got I think 10 cases in New York, so nothing. But but what is important to me is that, after that, I took the decision to go all-in with the Chardonnay program. And after that, I found a great vineyard in Itata. It's a great, great vineyard in front of the ocean in Cobquecura, 10 kilometers from the ocean, granite.

Cody Stephenson:

And how far is that from where the winery is?

Pedro Parra:

It's about 40 minutes driving towards the ocean. And that's a vineyard that is very weird. It's a Kendall-Jackson vineyard. But Kendall-Jackson is no longer in Chile. So they had this tiny vineyard of Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, and I got a phone call from the guy in charge, who said, "Pedro, we have the Chardonnay for you. Do you want to come here?" And said, "Of course, I want to do that." And that was in 2024. And at that time, a friend was doing the harvest with me. A friend of mine who is— nobody knows my friend— he's called John Fogner. John Fogner is the guy who makes Sandhi. And Evening Land and Domaine de la Côte, he's the winemaker of Sashi Moorman and Raj Parr. And it's a good friend that was doing the harvest with me. So we jumped into that. So we made the Chardonnay 2024 all together.

Cody Stephenson:

I feel like that story is a funny representation of the Chilean wine story. You have this boom, you know, 30, 20 years ago, whatever you want to say, producers with like Viñedo Chadwick and these big wines that defined Chile and what people like came to know, for so many in the wine industry. It was those icon Cabernets and Carmenieres, Purple Angel. And now I feel like the bubble has burst and the Kendall-Jackson vineyards are being sold off. And I think there's a lot of great, independent wine growers organizations. I feel like it's a country that is putting the smaller producers first, or at least that's what we're seeing here in the US. It's really exciting.

Pedro Parra:

Chile's an anomaly, basically, because Chile has been very industrial, you know. That's the Chilean view. But back in 2000, there's a switch on that. It's what we call the New Chile. And behind the New Chile, there was basically one guy, Marcelo Retamal, who is a good friend of mine. And Marcelo was pushing the idea of making small producers. And then we started to collaborate together in 2004, looking for small vineyards all around the country. Small vineyards, old vineyards, great terrior. After that, there were a lot of people talking about what those two guys are doing, and people started following. So now we are 2025, 21 years after that. And now finally there is a group of vignerons, if you want, in the country.

Cody Stephenson:

Vinistas.

Pedro Parra:

Yes, Vinistas, that are showing that the country is way more complex, than the perception. Sadly, for Chile, it's a little late. The perception of the press is that the country is industrial. But you have my wines, and you can realize that you can be artisanal, small, a good vigneron. And like my winery, there are to today 30, 40 more wineries that are looking for their own directions. So the future is coming, but it took longer. But it's coming.

Cody Stephenson:

Well, cheers to the future, Pedro. Thank you for joining us here in New York.

Pedro Parra:

Thank you.

Harmon Skurnik:

Skurnik Unfiltered is recorded at Skurnick Wines & Spirits headquarters in the Flatiron District of New York City, which is why you might hear some city noises as we go along like horns honking. If you found the conversation interesting, please consider liking, subscribing, and leaving a review. You can stay up to date on our show and upcoming events by following @skurnikwines on Instagram and visiting our website at skurnik.com

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Harmon Skurnik

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