014: What End-of-Life Work Teaches Us About Leadership with Kacie Gikonyo

In this guest episode of The MindHER Podcast, Mandi sits down with Kacie Gikonyo (Death Doula Kacie)—a registered nurse turned death doula, educator, and author who is reshaping how we talk about death, choice, and what it means to live on purpose. 

Kacie shares the pivotal moment during COVID that led her out of traditional healthcare and into “death care,” where she could prioritize presence, humanity, and advocacy over checklists and systems.

Together, they explore the power of autonomy at the end of life, how creating a death plan can replace chaos with peace, and why having honest conversations about death often changes how we lead and live. 

The conversation expands into leadership and mindset—trusting your intuition even when others doubt you, acting accordingly toward the future you want, and treating self-care as a proactive, scheduled non-negotiable rather than a response to burnout. 

Kacie closes by sharing a perspective-shifting practice she lives by daily: sitting with your “dying self” and letting that version of you influence how you spend your time today.

Reflection Questions:

• If your 80- or 90-year-old self could review how you spent today, what would she thank you for—and what might she invite you to change?

Keep up with Kacie:

Website: https://deathdoulakacie.com/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@deathdoulakacie

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deathdoulakacie/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/deathdoulakacie

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Transcript

Mandi 0:00

Welcome to The Mind her podcast where mindset, leadership, and personal growth come together to help you create a life in business you truly love. I'm your host, Mandy Casey, and today we have a very special guest with us, Casey Kono. Casey is a registered nurse turn death doula, educator, and author who is changing the way that we talk about death, dying, and what it means to truly live. And after more than a decade working in healthcare and end of life settings, she stepped outside of traditional systems to build a new model of support rooted in presence, advocacy, and humanity. Her work has been featured on national stages and in national media, including People Magazine, which is really, really cool, Casey. So I'm excited to have you here and I'm excited for our audience to hear from you today. Would you take a moment to just introduce yourself, maybe give a little more background about personally and professionally, what brought you to this point? Yeah,

Death Doula 0:50

absolutely. So, hi, my name's Casey, better known as Death Doula Casey, if anybody, has found me on social media yet. But I am an RN turned death doula, right? So I worked in healthcare for a long time, over a decade. I. And I worked in mainly long-term care, skilled care, acute care, so people who are at or nearing the end of their life. So I saw a lot of people die, you know, to put that plainly. And in healthcare we don't always do death very well. We often miss the human side of death. We miss the fact that death is something that happens to every single one of us, and it kind of just becomes more of a mechanical thing. Uh, but that doesn't always end up the best for the person who is dying. And so I saw that there was a lot of gaps and a lot of things missing and a lot of ways that people could be better supported through death. Not only the dying individual, but also their loved ones. Because when someone's dying, it's not something that's just happening to them, it's something that's happening to all of the people around them and all of the people that love them and are connected to them. And so I decided that I wanted to do something different and support people in a different way. So, after working the front lines of COVID and. Really experiencing death on a monumental level, I decided to transition out of healthcare and into what we call death care. So I am a death doula. I have owned my own death doula business since 2022. But I also opened Death Doula School, which is a death doula training company. So since I am a death doula and a registered nurse, I teach people who are interested in becoming a death doula, how they too can become a death doula and support others through their final chapter. So that's the CliffNotes version of my story.

Mandi 2:32

What I love most, and I think the reason I've been most excited about having you on this podcast is we talk about leadership and mindset and personal growth. And I really watched you walk that road of finding a gap in the industry. And then saying, how can I solve for it? And I think that's a really valuable leadership skill that not a lot of people think of that, right? They follow the path that everyone else takes. And you took this untraditional path. So I wanna know from you, was there a pivotal moment for you that really changed how you saw yourself as a leader that encouraged you to step into that space and said, Hey, I'm capable of solving this need.

Death Doula 3:10

You know, honestly, CODI think changed a lot for a lot of people. But that was really a moment for me where something switched in me and it was like I have to do better for myself and for humanity. Right? So, you know, in nursing. You don't have as much time as you want to be able to spend with people because there's checklists and there's this and there's that, and there's all of these things that you have to do. And COVID was wild and insane, and so many people were dying. And they were dying really horrible, tragic deaths alone, their family members weren't allowed to be there with them. And that was awful on so many levels as a nurse to have to call somebody. Let them know that their family member is dying and also you can't be there with them. Yeah. You know, what a horrible thing to do. But then also to see people that are dying alone and scared. And you know, even the nursing staff was so low because they were sick and we were running on bare bones. So, you know, sometimes I was often faced with the choice between, do I do my nursing job? Do I go finish this paperwork? Do I go make these phone calls, or do I sit here and hold this person's hand? Hmm. And I often chose to sit there and hold someone's hand because that's what felt right in my heart and that's what felt right in my soul. Now, my bosses never felt like I was doing the right thing and I was always getting, heat and yelled at and told that I was. Supposed to be doing better, and I was supposed to be doing more, even though I felt like I was doing everything that I could and that I should be doing for people. And that was a pivotal moment for me where I was like, you know, I loved my career in nursing. I love everything that I learned and everything that I did, but I don't think that I'm meant to be here anymore because, when I'm with a human being and giving them mm-hmm. Compassion or doing paperwork, I'm just gonna choose the human side. And so maybe that means I'm, not meant to be here anymore. I'm meant to do something else. And so that was kind of my pivotal moment where it was like, I gotta find something else for myself and for the people that I take care of. And so I made that change and, once I did it once, it was like I never looked back. I've never looked back.

Mandi 5:17

Yeah. I love that for you and I love just, embracing the humanness of it all. I think that's one of the important things that you say in your bio, how you really teach people how to live right. And I think that's such a powerful shift because when we embrace a hard conversation and a hard topic it really changes the way we look at life. What are some of the biggest like changes you've recognized in some of the clients that you work with when they have a terminal diagnosis or their families start talking about death? Do you see how it changes their dynamics?

Death Doula 5:45

Oh, absolutely. So a lot of the people that I work with, They never even realized that they have autonomy over their own death or even their own person. Right. most of the people I've worked with have a terminal diagnosis like cancer and a lot of times people who've suffered with cancer, they've suffered with it for a long time. Yeah. Some people have even had cancer. Come and go. You know, it's come and they've gotten rid of it, and now it's come back and they've gotten rid of it. Mm-hmm. And so they've really suffered with it for a long time. And you get in this kind of mechanical mode of, okay, here's what you have to do. Now you have to do this, then comes this. Now there's this study, then there's this chemo. And you just follow the motions and you do what you're told until someone comes around and says, what do you wanna do? And you're like, what? You know what? Yeah. And no one's ever asked me what I wanna do before, and sometimes just sitting with people and letting them know you have a choice in whether or not you wanna continue doing this. Or if you wanna do something else with the rest of your life, and giving people that power back. And even further than that, part of what I do as a death doula is to help people create their death plan. And that's something that people just never really know They have the ability to do. I can tell you what your last days of life are gonna look like. Also, I can help you plan so that it can look like what you want it to look like, so let's talk about that, how do you want it to sound as you are laboring out,, what music is important for you, or is it more important that people be around telling you stories? You know what smells? I love that. What smells really calm your body. Like are you a lavender person? And that'll really just bring calm to your body. Or do you want me to make chocolate chip cookies? 'cause I'll totally be in the kitchen making them for everybody. These are just things that nobody else will ask you and nobody else will plan and prepare for. But, conversations that, that I give you autonomy in these, this power over. So, I really give people A power back that they never knew they had. And then also, same with the loved ones, right? Because sometimes the loved ones will just. Watch their loved one die. Right. But if you have a whole plan in place like, here's what we want the last days to look like, we know she wants to hear this music where she wants these five people to be surrounding her. Or she wants us making cookies and making her favorite lasagna and eating it and talking and telling all these favorite stories. Now we have a plan. We have something to do. Mm-hmm. You know, so instead of just sitting there and anxiously. Scared and in fear and with chaos watching this thing happen, we can do it with intention and with love instead. And so it's a way to bring beauty to death, which is something that, people always thought was kind of an oxymoron and didn't go together.

Mandi 8:29

Yeah, I think I hear so many women my age who are having babies and they, whether they're having the baby at the hospital or at home, they create this plan, like you said, of like, I'm gonna have my hospital bag and here's who I want with me, and I want people in the room, or I don't want people in the room and we take so much. Time planning and preparing to bring someone into this life. And I love, you've said it before, how we take that same amount of energy and effort to wish someone well as they labor out of life. And I think that's something not a lot of people talk about. Do you ever get pushback or feedback around talking about something that feels a little bit taboo online? 'cause you do it mostly on online right?

Death Doula 9:08

Oh, yes, I do a lot of talking about death online, and when I first started, I started with fear. Fear in my heart. Okay. And everything, we, all, everything that, that I was gonna be attacked because why would you be talking about this? And nobody wants to hear about death. But the reason I'm still here and still doing this all the time, is because people do wanna talk about it. I had feeling that it's something that we keep in the shadows, but if we bring it up and if we do talk about it, that more people would be like, Hey, yeah, tell me more about that. I'm interested in that. Or I went through that with my grandma or my mom, or whatever. It's these things that we've been told not to talk about and we've been told to keep in the shadows, but if we openly and freely talk about it and bring it out into the light. People do wanna talk about it more often. So I really don't get a lot of hate or feedback. And if I ever do I always feel like it's just a miscommunication yeah. Whether it's because some people don't understand, they'll hear a death doula and they'll think that maybe I'm helping people to end their life, mm-hmm. So they just don't understand, that's obviously not at all what I do. Or people will say, that's stupid and nobody needs that at the end of their life. And I always just think that you just obviously have never seen somebody die. And at some point you'll, yeah. And then you'll understand

Mandi 10:22

yeah.

Death Doula 10:23

I am. Very grateful. I don't get a lot of people, a lot of hate in my comments at all. When people do comment, it's almost always positive. I can't tell you how many people I've had in my dms that have just thank you so much. Like you helped me through, the death of so and so and all of the things that you taught me and, I was able to educate my family when so and so was dying so that it wasn't so scary. And, I used to have. Fear of death, but you've taught me so much that like now I'm not afraid of it. And that stuff just fuels my fire. That just keeps me going to where I don't, I don't ever wanna stop. 'cause people they need to know more about it,

Mandi 10:59

yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanna pause here because Casey was so great in helping me when I had to put my dog down. The same sensations of watching a person die can happen when you watch an animal die, right? That compassion, that humanity part of us, um, that connects with another being. And I was like, what do I do? But you helped me make a plan of like, how do I make her comfortable? How do I sit with her? And in talking with our vet, we're like, she's like, do you want her to have any certain snacks or what's her favorite toy that she could play with leading up to it? So I think that that is so important is that having the plan brought me peace and it allowed our last moments together to be so special. And I can absolutely see where those are the dms that you get because I recognize how much you helped me. You touched on something there that I think as leaders is really important though, because you said in the beginning you were really scared to talk about this online. There was a lot of fear of like, what's gonna happen if I put myself out there? And what would you say to the leader who, whether it's talking about something that is taboo or taking a leap of faith or walking away from something toxic, like what would you say to that person that's sitting in that space of fear and it's holding them back?

Death Doula 12:04

Well, I will always tell you to just do it right, because I'm the death doula and so nobody knows more than me how short our lives can be. I always say that one of these days, Nike is gonna pick me up. 'cause I'm always saying, just do it. Just do it. Yeah, just do it. Right. It's like my second logo or whatever, but. Just do it. You never have any idea what's gonna happen. And they always say that fear is just your nervous system trying to hold you back, right. Because mm-hmm. If you move into something new, it's scary because it might be different, but different might be amazing. You don't have any idea, right? Let me tell you, I was so scared, I started on TikTok, right? And everybody, my friends, my family, everybody was like, what? You are insane. Do not start a TikTok, right? I, I, I think I told you. Don't do TikTok. Nobody's on there. I remember you did, and I took your advice. I mean, everything you told me was like gold to me. So when you said that, I was like, I don't know. But I did it anyway. I did it anyway. There was something in me that was like, just do it and see what happens. And let me tell you, I got my book deal from social media. I got in People magazine from social media. I've gotten so many different media features from social media. I've done work with celebrities that have met me on social media. Like I can't tell. You with the things that social media has done for me. So, you just, you never know what will happen if you just do it. So I can't say it enough. Just do it. Just take that leap and see what happens. It'll either work or it won't. And if it won't, it's not a loss because you learned something from it. So either way, just do it.

Mandi 13:34

Yeah, it's just data informing you of your next step. What I love that you said there is so valuable is that. Stephen, I told you, Hey, that probably isn't the best use of your time. It's not the right platform for you to be on. But you were able to discern for yourself that, no, something's pulling me there. This is what my intuition says I should do. And I think that's really important for leaders is that yes, you can take in and you can consume opinions and feedback and research and data, but at the end of the day, being able to discern for yourself. That nudge and what you should do moving forward, I think is so powerful as any sort of leader or business owner and even just person life because how many people do you encounter, Casey, that are living their life based on other people's expectations for them?

Death Doula 14:15

Yeah. So many people,

Mandi 14:17

and then they get to you at the end of life and they're like, Hey, these are the regrets I live.

Death Doula 14:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's huge. I have people who still at the end of their life are still living their life for other people, like people who will be ready to let go, but they're not because they're doing what, so and so wants them to do. And it's still hard to be like, listen, like this is your time., You got like a month left, i'm an advocate for that for sure.

Mandi 14:43

How do you think doing the work that you do with people who are dying has made you live more intentionally?

Death Doula 14:51

It has changed my life. Monumentally, I cannot even tell you. Working with the dying has been the most incredible thing I've ever done for my life. And I'm so happy when you face death every single day. You live so much more intentionally, so much more intentionally. I am so lucky, and I am so grateful for absolutely every single thing, right? Every single thing. Not only the big things, like I'm grateful that I have this awesome company and that I get to write this great book, right? But I'm also grateful for these beautiful blue clouds up in the sky right now. Usually it's gray out there, but I get to see beautiful clouds up in the sky. So I mean, I find gratitude in. Absolutely everything, and I don't waste time on anything. As far as fear goes, of course I have fear and I have anxiety, but I don't hesitate. I mean, if I have an idea, if I wanna do it, I'm just gonna do it because what's the worst that can happen? You know? I don't really procrastinate, I go for things. Mm-hmm. I have no idea how long my life will be. Yeah. I've worked with women my age. Who I've had to help them say goodbye to their own children. You know what I mean? Like that will impact you harder than anything you could ever imagine. So, I just, suck up every single moment I can with my kids. They wanna take a day off school for mental health. I don't care. Let's do it. Let's go. Yeah. Chill. Let's make a memory out of it. I work really hard to balance work and my life so that I'm not overwhelmed. I take one day off of work a week, every single week. It's called my CEO day, and that is my day for me to do whatever I want unapologetically. Whether I wanna sit and rot on the couch, like a sack of potatoes, or I wanna go to the park and exercise or get a massage, like whatever it is, I earned it. Like I've done so much in this world already. I've earned it and I take it unapologetically. I just know that when I'm sitting on my death bed, I won't have the same regrets that all of these people. I hear all of the time have, I won't say, I wish I spent more time doing this, or I wish I spent more time doing that, or I wish I didn't. Let so and so run my life, I hear these regrets all the time and they shape how I lived my life. I, for a long time lived my life for other people and what other people expected of me, and I have to do this because they might think that I don't care what. Anyone thinks of me now, except for me, right? Yeah. Except for me. I live this life for me and for my kids because they're obviously so important to me and it's an amazing feeling to wake up every day. Mm-hmm. Knowing that I'm living my best life. I'm doing my best, I'm making memories, and I'm so happy to be here and grateful to be here. I am a different person than I was before I started this work. For sure.

Mandi 17:46

That's incredible and what a like healthy space to be in. You know what I mean? Yeah. When you said, I wake up every morning, just so grateful to be here. You're right. There is. Physically and mentally, a completely different sensation that happens when you're living in that space of intentionality and love and joy and freedom versus toxic environments that I think a lot of our listeners find themselves in. Whether that's relationships or work, right? Where you feel held back and you're living out of fear and there's tension in relationships. It's just a completely different way to live and it's very freeing. Yeah, it really is. You kind of touched on this talking about your CEO days, but I'm curious if there's anything else specific, because a lot of our listeners do find themselves in toxic environments or in like really heavy situations in life. You deal with something heavy every day, even though you absolutely love it. How do you keep yourself grounded? How do you fill your cup for something that for others might be really depleting? What are your rituals or habits that you use to really ground in?

Death Doula 18:44

Absolutely. I teach this to all of my deaf doulas all the time because So important. Well, first of all, when I was in healthcare, we were trained about self-care. Right. And self-care. Right. And you chase, you chase that after you're so burnt out that you feel like you can't do life anymore. Yes. That's. Yeah. Yeah. That's when you go after self-care. Okay, well, I teach theft doula, something very different, right? We schedule self-care into our schedule all of the time. Whatever looks right for you. I mentioned my CEO day. That's what looks right for me. I have kids and my kids are chaotic, and so on the weekend we. Stack our weekend full of things to do, and then by Monday I need a break. My kids go back to school. I get my CEO day to relax and do whatever I want so that the rest of the week I can just work my butt off the rest of the week after having a day to relax. So self-care is something that is scheduled in all the time regularly, unapologetically, and before you ever burn out. Not after you burnout, you know? Mm-hmm. You can absolutely chase more self-care if you're feeling burnout come on, but just you're always doing self-care. It's not something that you put off or that you push off, but also what does self-care look like? For me, it's important that I feed my body right? So I eat healthy foods. It's important that I get outside and that I connect with nature every single day. At least once a day. It's important that I exercise. That I try to sleep well. Although, you know, the body doesn't always cooperate on that end, but I try my hardest. Yeah. Yeah. Um. That I disconnect from work. My phone goes on do not disturb at 9:00 PM and it doesn't come off till 7:00 AM So, these are things that I call my non-negotiables. That's just kind of what has to happen in order for me and my body and my nervous system to regulate and, and do what it has to do when it comes to things that get really hard. You know, I work. With a client who's my age and I have to help her say goodbye to her kids, that's really hard. That could take a lot out of me. I don't have to start working with another client right away. Yeah, I can do whatever I need to do to give myself the space and the time to get. Where I need to be to take on more clients. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nobody above me, no hierarchy that's pushing me or rushing me. I don't have to take more admissions yeah. None of that, none of that craziness that I was kind of used to from healthcare. So just really retraining myself and my life, and my body and my nervous system, and that's how I stay sane.

Mandi 21:08

I totally understand that, and what I love most about that, Casey, is the honoring of your body. Like I said, sleep doesn't always happen because the body doesn't always listen. But truly learning to listen to yourself and be like, do I need to slow down today? Do I need to fill my cup? Do I need to be outside? Don? I need to be on the couch. And I think oftentimes we're taught to ignore those signals. I can imagine as a nurse, whenever you're running around from patient to patient and getting burnout, when I was in the corporate world and I was burnout, it was like you ignore all of those signals. Because they're not serving you well when in actuality they really are.

Death Doula 21:38

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And still, it's hard, right? Like when I need a day to just sit on the couch and rot, I have to fight with myself about it. 'cause it's like mm-hmm. I know that I need it. I can feel in my body. I'm so tired and I'm not usually a tired during the day person. My brain will be like, no, you need to exercise and you need to get up and you need to. Still an argument that I even have to have within myself because I am really trained to like, don't be lazy. Don't do that. But I will fight for it. This week was a rot week. I sat on the couch and I watched documentaries. I watched three documentaries in a row this week, and it's the first time in many weeks that I did it. So, yeah. I will fight with myself even if I have to, but. It does take some rewiring to really get yourself out of that idea of, you're allowed to rest. That is something that I really did struggle with for a long time.

Mandi 22:29

Yeah. Okay. So you touched on something. I was just talking with a group of women last night because we're talking about vision and we've been talking about that a lot on the podcast recently, but we were talking about how in order to move forward with a vision, even like you did with deaf doula school, or even becoming a deaf doula, there are mindset shifts that have to happen, right? We argue with ourselves in our mind all the time, and I'm curious for you if there's one specific mindset shift that you had to let go of and how you reframed it, like what the new. Verbiage or the new one-liner or the new affirmation that you anchored in that helped you move forward?

Death Doula 23:04

Hmm, man, I don't even know. I mean, definitely learning how to take care of myself was the hardest, Mm-hmm. So probably a little bit of what we just talked about with like arguing with myself and allowing myself to rest 'cause. No matter how hard I work, I never felt like I deserved that. I always am not working hard enough or I'm not exercising enough or whatever. You know, I feel like I never deserved to actually sit down and give myself rest. So that was a big thing that I had to actually let myself do. 'cause owning a business, first of all, is hard enough, but owning a business in the death space and then creating content, the way I create content, that's like a whole nother full-time job. So it's kind of like running between my death doula business, death doula school of the content creation. It's like running three different Yeah. Full-time jobs at the same time. So if I really don't listen to myself and not get out of that, you don't deserve to rest frame mind it doesn't turn out well. And I will burn myself out sometimes too, because I, I don't listen still to this day, even though I, yeah, I argue with myself, so I don't have a one-liner other than, you deserve to rest. I do tell myself that all the time, but sometimes I don't even notice that I'm doing it. I have my friends trained. I have one friend in particular that I talk to every day and I have her trained to pick up on my cues of like, when, mm-hmm. I'm burning myself out so that she can start to be like, is it time for you to rest? Yeah. Have you, have you had a ROT day lately? Like Oh. Okay. Maybe it is time to rest while I was writing the book, I had some pretty significant deadlines to get into and I didn't do my CEO day for like four weeks in a row 'cause I just mm-hmm. Couldn't, I literally couldn't. And it was funny 'cause she picked up on it. Even without me really telling her, she was like, I feel like you haven't had a CEO day in a while. And I just thought it was so funny that she knew so much that she had picked up on the fact that I hadn't had one or whatever. And I was like, yeah. She's like, maybe you could slip one in, huh? Yeah.

Mandi 25:06

Yeah. It sounds like

Death Doula 25:08

you could slip one in. Maybe. I'm like, okay. Okay. Fine.

Mandi 25:11

Yeah. I think that's so important though, is having your village, your circle around you, right? That inner circle who can pick up on cues and you have to be willing to hear them when they call you out. 'cause I think a lot of times they're like, please tell me if I'm doing this. And then the moment they tell you, like, walls go up and we get defensive. So I love that you were able to actually hear that and implement it. That's cool. Yes, definitely. Okay, so if we fast forward 10 years from now, which gosh would be. 2036. I can't even think that far ahead. What impact do you hope that your work, whether that's personally or your book, or the death to school, what do you, what impact do you hope that you have created?

Death Doula 25:51

Well, first of all, I don't hope I know, but I know that my impact 10 years from now will be enormous. Right. Right. There will be death doulas everywhere. It will just be kind of like a normal part of end of life care. So right now we're just kind of emerging and people are just starting to learn about us. And even people in healthcare, a lot of physicians and hospices even. Still are just learning about what is a death doula, so we aren't really integrated the way that we should be, and that's something that's really big for me. I am an RN and I am a death doula, and so my goal is to really bring these two things together, healthcare and death care. And I'm working really hard to do that. And I don't wanna say me solely alone. There are many death doulas that are working hard to make this impact. But I do believe that in 10 years, everyone will know what a death doula is and everyone will know. We need to get ahold of a death doula. There will be death doulas working alongside hospices all the time. There will be death doulas in hospitals so that, God forbid. Pregnant woman who loses her baby isn't handling that alone. Yeah, she's got a doula there by her side. I had a friend who had a miscarriage and had to go, in for a DNC and she sat in like a cold operating room in just a gown. Getting ready to have this really sad procedure. And she sat there for hours 'cause the surgeon was backed up all by herself, just crying and crying. And she called me, and of course I was on the phone with her, but she was like, there should be a death doula here to hold my hand and tell me that it's gonna be okay. And so that's what I know. That's my hope. That's my dream. But also what I know is that 10 years from now, there's gonna be death, duals all over the place, supporting people through death because death care is gonna be different than it's ever been before.

Mandi 27:31

Yeah. I love your certainty there, and I think that speaks a lot to your leadership. Tell me, where does that certainty come from?

Death Doula 27:37

I'll tell you exactly where it came from. It came from Mandy Casey. Um, I worked with her and she taught me that if we act accordingly, right? So if we, if we know that something's gonna happen to us in the future and we act accordingly. Wham. Bam. Thank you, ma'am. It just happens in the future. Yeah. And that has worked like magic for me. And so that's something that I do in my life and my practice. If you have this confidence and you can envision. I know that I will be here in five years or here in 10 years. Those things will happen. Yeah. I've said it out loud a million times. I've written it down. I've told people I will own a death doula school. I will be training people how to be death doulas. And then it happened and everybody said, you always do everything you say that you're gonna do. And I say, it's just 'cause I always know it's gonna happen and I just act accordingly to get there. Yeah. So that's where it came from. Do

Mandi 28:31

you think that, that, thank you by the way. You did all the work, right? And the fact that you continue to do the work and you're passing that forward. I absolutely love. Do you think that that same kind of certainty and that same concept of acting accordingly ever transpires into movement or action for the families of those that you serve? And I say this meaning. They watch their loved one die. Maybe with regrets, maybe not with regrets, maybe having lived their life for someone else. And when you can talk about having this certainty of knowing where you're gonna get in 10 years and then taking those behaviors and those actions to make it come to fruition, that's very different than the people who say they want something and then they sit in fear, right? Like we talked about earlier. I could see where as a death doula and people watching their loved one, labor out of life, that starts to have an impact on the family members. And I could see where your certainty and your desire to act and bring to fruition things that you actually say you want and live a life according to you, terms could translate into movement for them as well.

Death Doula 29:34

Yeah, definitely I could see that too. And even, there's been an actual medical study done that shows that families who work with a death doula, once their loved one dies and labor's out. Those people who have worked with the death doula and who had that death doula there to help plan and help remove the chaos and the fear and all of that, those people move forward seeing life and death so much differently than they did before because they didn't. Do this all by themselves. Mm-hmm. And they did it in a different way where there wasn't fear and there wasn't chaos and there was a plan and there was even a little bit of beauty to it. And so the more people work with death doulas, the more we are literally changing the way the future sees death. Yeah. So, you know, we will just be changing death for future generations. The more and more we are implemented into more people's lives.

Mandi 30:25

Yeah. And I think a byproduct of that is changing how we see death, but also how we see life.

Death Doula 30:31

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Mandi 30:33

We're gonna wrap up, but one of the things I love that you talk about is how before your clients labor out of life, they're like, Hey, come back and find me. Tell us some really cool ways that those who have passed on have come back and spoken to you.

Death Doula 30:49

I'll tell you my two favorite stories. Okay. So one of my clients I knew we were getting close because she was experiencing something called terminal lucidity where she had been asleep and not really had a lot of energy. She was very near death. But then one day I was there and all of a sudden she was awake and she was alert. Wanted to get up out of bed. And she heard a song in her head. The Little Surfer Girl. You know that song, right? I didn't, it's by the Beach Boys. I didn't know the song at the time, but of course I grabbed my phone and immediately turned it on, like, let's listen. Mm-hmm. And didn't she get up out bed? Dance. And so like her and I are dancing to this song and I know what's happening here. I know that this is the last moment that her and I are gonna do anything like this and that she's probably going to die within the next day or two. But like, how much fun is this? Right? And I call her son and you know, he lives right. Around the corner. So he's there in a minute and we're just having so much fun listening to this song and I'm playing it on repeat whatever. Sure enough, she does die in the next day or so. Well, about a week later I went back to her house. Met her son there. I was helping him to get rid of some of her things like we had planned. She wanted me to donate them to certain homeless shelters and things. So I was there with him and I go to get in my car and I always connect my phone to my car so that I'm listening to like, Pandora and my phone would not connect to my car. Like, it just wouldn't. I'm like, what is going on? Like, why would this not work? And all of a sudden the radio cuts on and isn't it? That song the Little Surfer Girl, like I'm there at school. Yeah. I'm there at her house and my phone will not connect for what reason? It's just like Misfunctioning for some stupid reason. And then all of a sudden, here comes this song and I'm like, oh, there you are. I told you to come back and find me. And sure you did. You absolutely did. So that was one of my favorites. There she was. And um, a Medium had once told me that. People will, souls or spirits, whatever, will ride in cars with you. That it's like a fun way for them to kind of transport around. And so that just kind of also was like, she's here, isn't she? Are you here in the car with me? Yeah. So I sat there and talked to her like I could see her, of course I could see nothing but, but I sat there and talked and laughed and cried. The whole nine yards. Called her son immediately. You're never gonna believe what happened. So that was, that was one of 'em. My second one, um, I had worked with another client for a really long time and this one, so I actually knew her. Before, we worked together. We were in a networking group together as business women. So I'd known her for a few years. We were just very close and, uh, she knew my journey. She met me when I was a baby death doula,, and. Yeah, I'm gonna open a death doula school and all that stuff. And then she watched me do all of it and she watched me grow and she just was always there in my corner, just like so blown away by all of this stuff and then it was the time for me to help her go through and labor out of life and all of that. And I always told her, you better come back here and you better find me. She knew I was about to go to a conference and give a speech. And it was planned for a few weeks after she died, so, mm-hmm. She had died and, um, I often just talk out loud to whoever's listening because I believe that there's people listening to me. So one day I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna wear to this. Conference, like I've got this speech and I don't like this and I don't like that, and I've got nothing to wear and blah, blah, blah. And I was just kind of in my like closet where all my clothes are. Anyways, so I came down the stairs and was like, I'll figure it out tomorrow. And uh, I went upstairs the next day, like the very next morning, and a pair of shoes were just sitting like right at the top of the stairs. Um, almost like somebody had like set them there for me. Like, Hey, you should wear these shoes. And it was the pair of shoes that I had forgotten about that did match the outfit that I was looking to wear very perfectly. Mm-hmm. And nobody else had been up. Stairs since the last time I had been upstairs. So it just felt like a, like a very much like somebody intentionally set them there. And then that same, it was like two weeks later. It was right around Easter and um. The Easter baskets that the Easter bunny keeps upstairs in that same room. I went upstairs and right at the top of the steps, like at the landing. Mm-hmm. Both of the boys, both of the boys Easter baskets were just sitting there, kind of like somebody had dug them out of like the back of the attic and set 'em there. Like, oh, got the Easter baskets for you, which is just very much something she would've done for me. So, I see little signs all the time. I took my kids to the park the one day, and as soon as we walked up onto this little ledge, there was this heart shape leaf. It was just a leaf that was like the perfect shape of a heart. Mm-hmm. It was a bright red, bright red leaf in the shape of a heart. Yeah. So those are a few of my favorite stories.

Mandi 35:50

Oh, that's really cool. I had something similar happen with the leaf in that right after my dog passed away. I went to go wrap Christmas gifts 'cause she passed away right before Christmas. And I opened our closet to where the wrapping paper is. And in it, I've been married for over a year now, but my bouquet is hanging from my wedding and just as I open the closet door, it's been there for over a year. A petal fell. I picked up that pedal and it was the perfect shape of a heart. I'm like, the flower wasn't a heart shape, you know what I mean? But I was like, okay, Lucy, I see you. So I love that. I love those little synchronicities where you feel like loved and protected. That's cool.

Death Doula 36:29

Absolutely. Sometimes I feel like. They help me. Like I always say like I help to guide them on their journey and they help guide me on mine. And so a lot of times if I am stuck, like I don't know what to do about this, I'm not sure. I talk about it like, Hey, mm-hmm I've got this business thing and I'm not sure, does anybody have any ideas? Like, who's gonna help guide me? Which way should I go with this? And it's not like anybody ever answers me, but I always feel like in my heart, sometimes I'll be like, okay, this is what you should do. So, yeah, I don't know. That's

Mandi 37:02

cool. Yeah. Um, okay, so as we wrap up, what is a piece of advice that you'd give to a woman listening who really wants to lead herself and her life with more clarity and confidence? What parting wisdom would you give her?

Death Doula 37:14

I'm gonna say just do it. We don't have any idea what life has in store for us, and, my favorite advice to give is to spend a little bit of time sitting with your dying self each day, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, if you were sitting on the bed of yourself, 80, 90 years old, and yourself is dying, would yourself be proud of how you spent your time today? Would she say, you made great decisions and you did such good things and I'm so proud of you. Or would she be like, why are you doing what everybody else tells you to do instead of what you know that you wanna do? Or would she be like, stop being so scared and just do it. Just do it. So that's kind of how I live my life. I talk to my dying self every day. I'm like, Casey, did we do a good job today? And she usually says, yes. Sometimes she says, it's time for you to take a CEO day and rot a little bit. Casey, you're doing too much. So

Mandi 38:06

yeah, I love that. Sit with your dying self every day. That's such great advice. Very cool. Okay. Where can people connect with you? You said your Aunt TikTok, so we know that. How can they find you? Where do you hang out? And you've referenced a book, so tell us a little bit about the book and when we can purchase it, what it's about, all of that.

Death Doula 38:22

I'm so excited. So my book's coming out in the fall in September. It's called Laboring Out of Life. You may have heard me say Labor out of life about a hundred times. 'cause it's kind of my phrase. I always talk about how life is a labor out, just like it's a labor inn. So yes, it'll be out later this year. You'll be able to find it on Amazon, which is where most people get it. But it'll also be in bookstores. And I'll be doing a whole book tour. If you wanna know more about it, you definitely have to follow me somewhere, wherever your favorite social media platform of choice. I'm on all of them. I'm death doula Casey. But you have to spell K-C-K-A-C-I-E. You can find me on TikTok. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. You can even find me on LinkedIn. I'm everywhere. Um, you can also just email me at Casey at Def doula Casey. If you have any questions, my website is def doula casey.com. You can Google Def Doula Casey, and you'll find about 15 pages of information about me. So just look up Def Casey on any search bar and you'll find what you're looking for. And if you have any questions or you wanna reach out, please don't hesitate. I'm super accessible and I would be so happy to chat.

Mandi 39:24

I love that we will put a link to all of your platforms and your email in the show notes so that it makes it really easy for people to find you. Awesome. Thank you much. You're welcome. Thanks so much for being here, Casey. We have loved this conversation.

Death Doula 39:37

Thanks for having me.