Say Hello to My Little Ballerina - Protect the process

Terence Shigg and Paul Bunch discuss the role of a Chief Creative Officer, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a positive creative environment. Paul shares his experiences of recognizing and adapting to negative energies that hinder creativity. He recounts a pivotal moment where an executive's interruption led him to reevaluate his approach, leading to the creation of a system to protect his creative flow. They also discuss the art of pitching, using the example of "The Greatest Showman" to illustrate persistence and the power of a well-timed presentation. The conversation highlights the significance of aligning systems with one's purpose to achieve long-term success.

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Transcript

Terence Shigg: 0:06

Welcome to I think we're at episode five of legacy by Design. Today I am joined by my lifelong friend, the person who's probably known me the longest on this planet, besides my brothers. But anyway, still family, Mr. Paul. Bunch The let me see if I got the title, right? The President and Chief Creative Officer of river rock

Paul Bunch: 0:32

films, correct? That is correct.

Terence Shigg: 0:35

Now most people understand what the President is, but I love the title. Can you tell what a chief creative officer is?

Paul Bunch: 0:43

Yes, it's it's someone who is not qualified to talk about business and sticks to the creative, all of the things that like, for instance, the writing, the directing, the creative sessions we we sponsor a lot of meetings with young people to engage with creatives. And so it's my job to recruit talent, to engage with talent, not just writers but musicians, because we always are looking for music for our movies. So it's so my my job is to continue to grow as a creative myself, but to bring new talent and to to recruit and to help expand the river rocks network on the creative side.

Terence Shigg: 1:33

Okay, very cool. I said, I love that title. I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal that title. I'm gonna tell people I'm a chief creative officer. Absolutely.

Paul Bunch: 1:42

It's a big job, you know. Yeah, I really enjoy it, you know. And I, I tell people all the time, I'm very kind of cautious who I let in to these creative meetings. It's a, it's, it's a very tenuous situation. Sometimes, if you let a, let's say, a high energy lawyer type, who is, you know, high strong on the business side, you let that energy into a creative meeting, and you you can really kill the vibe. So I'm very cautious about

Terence Shigg: 2:16

so and I that's interesting. You talk about the energy of the room in a creative and we've talked about legacy by design. Kind of the idea behind it is to take that level of success of others and use it to put into a new system so that you can move it forward. So tell me, how did you learn that? Because that's not a that's not a yeah thing that you just know you had to have experienced something that, oh my god. Just said, Oh yeah, yeah.

Paul Bunch: 2:52

So it the concept was developed from my previous failures, where I learned over in the early years, when I was pitching or if I was in a writing room. The thing that I noticed about myself was that there were times where I would be on fire and things would come out of me flowing and energetic, and then there were other times where my energy was just crushed, where something about the vibe in the room, I when they when it came around to me to be creative. I had nothing like, I just wasn't the like the faucet was just turned off. And over several years, I began to really take notice of what those situations were that created a negative vibe that that literally circumvented that creative flow. And for me, you know some people, you have to know yourself, right so i Some people can survive and still work in a that, what I noticed was that when there was negative, almost like a cutthroat energy, where people were kind of combative in the room. I would I didn't do well, and I also learned that a lot of other artists that I talked to had similar experiences. So I tell the story all the time. When I my creativity, I describe her as I call her my little ballerina, right? Because if the flow is a loving vibe and we're all being positive, my ballerina will come out and dance on the table in front of everybody, but if, but when she comes out, she looks around and she tests, she dips her toe in the water, and if it doesn't feel like a loving, positive environment, she will just go sit in the corner and be like, Nope, I'm not dancing, right? And so there's what I've discovered was that that is a common thread throughout a lot of creative people. Where, if the vibe isn't right, they literally are useless in that environment. So I became really conscious of curating the environment, and if the wrong like, if the I get very stringent, if somebody's vibe isn't right. If somebody comes in a room and it's killing I will, I will be very blunt about it these days and be like, let me. Let me talk to you outside. So I'm very careful with the people we allow into that creative space. And it was just over years of recognizing in myself when those things were, when what the environment was, when I was flowing, and what the environment was when I was working, and, yeah, so that's, that's been a huge, huge learning process, right?

Terence Shigg: 5:58

That's, that's awesome, that you put it that way, because I'm a big systems person, and one of the, the the tenants of all the things that I talk about is the system that you create, and whatever the outcome is, that's what your system is created to do. And I love listening to your story, because that's what you're saying. You're looking at it going, Okay, this works, great, and it flows. And my ballerina will dance, but okay, she's not dancing now, so something's up, right? So we have to figure out what's up so we can let that ballerina go. And, okay, it's the energy, it's the negativity, and matter of fact, it's you, yeah. So yeah, my job. And I, when you say the story, it sounds like it's your you've taken it upon yourself for the process to protect her and create an environment where she can flow. And yeah, 100% Terence.

Paul Bunch: 6:57

And like, it was scary to be honest with you, because I can recall times where I was driving away from a meeting going, maybe I'm not cut out for this. I almost like took those negative moments where it wasn't working as a sign that maybe I'm not able to do this right. And so unless you, unless you have an incredible amount of confidence, I suspect there are people in not just in the creative side, but in all walks of life, who, because they didn't do what you're saying is build the system, right, right? They circumvent what their goal is, and they maybe walk away from it. I'm scared that might be true.

Terence Shigg: 7:40

Oh, yeah. And I think you're absolutely right, and for you, being able to tackle that scary part with the confidence that you did took a while, but knowing that you're doing what you're meant to do gives you a little edge to go, Okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. So if this isn't working, then there's something here that needs to be changed.

Paul Bunch: 9:31

Because that's right, yeah, yeah. And I just want to share one more piece to it. No, go for it, because the exploration of the exploration, for me, of what is missing, because here's the story that kind of broke it open for me, right? So we had, we had a client who was ready to move forward and pay us a lot of money to do a TV series, right? And so me, and I won't name any names, me and an executive had a meeting where that client at great length, described kind of the parameters of this TV series, and we were going to be hired to write and produce, but he owned this concept, so So we spent hours with him, and it was my job to go home over the weekend and write out this idea. And so I did that. I wrote out the idea, and I thought it was pretty strong, but I knew, you know, we needed a second meeting to really kind of meet present and then get some feedback. And so this one particular executive said, Well, Paul, let me show up early and I will see the idea before you pitch it. And so I was like, okay, so we rolled into the meeting, and here the client. When we get there early, the client is there early too. So the executive comes in and the client is there. And so he goes, go ahead and start pitching. And something about the energy of this executive wasn't working because he kept kind of interrupting me and what and like. So I'm get, I'm trying to get to this one really important kind of hook of the story. And at some point, this particular executive, he stopped me and said, Wait a minute. Hold it, Paul. I. Just had this incredible idea of how to do this. And I remember I just spent the whole weekend writing, right like 72 hours of staying up all night. Come on. And after five minutes of me, I haven't really even gotten into the meat of the idea, he cuts me off and thinks this executive thinks that this idea that just popped into his head is more valuable than all the work I did over the weekend. Yes, he blurts out this idea that was a terrible idea. The executive is looking at him like, well, that doesn't really align with what we talked about. And I, I got so frustrated with that moment, I was just like, all right, why don't you finish the meeting? And I literally walked out because he, he humiliated me in front of a client, right? And so what I did was I drove home and I called him like, dude, that that doesn't work like that doesn't work like you coming into a meeting and humiliating me like that and embarrassing yourself with a bad idea when that's not even your job. We can never do that again, right? But even more importantly, I had to go home and examine the weakness of me walking out, because a stronger person would have sat there and told him to shut up and finish the idea. And so part of me was like, Okay, I have to go back and rebuild my mechanisms of getting through moments like that, right? Because my my moment there was to retreat, and because there was just a high, strong environment, and I retreated Right, right, there was just so much for me to think through and how to overcome moments like that in the future and the ultimate. And this is where we kind of spawned the idea, okay, from now on, when we have pitch sessions, there will be no suits, suits, so let's just say, or lawyers in the room. That was one. But the other thing was, I remember going home and I felt so kind of agitated, I ended up putting on some music, just calm down, and I put on some old Motown Right, right, and that, all of a sudden, who I am slowly came back right. And the confident, like the confidence started flowing because and that's when I realized, dude, it's about recon. It's about staying in your power, staying in who you are, and trusting that you're enough, right, to get through those moments. Yes. And so this is what I do now, Terence, I like whenever I am getting into a creative situation where it's like, I always remind myself of the vibe of Paul, the history and the all of those things that I lean into for who I am. You know what I mean? That's really what I'm pitching. It may be, it may be in the form of an idea, but I'm spilling blood in front of you from Paul bunch,

Terence Shigg: 14:54

right, that you've created, and you've gone through, you've done the sweat, yup, blood to create this world and this environment, and as you talk about it, in the system, I You did our perfect example of what I I preach, which is knowing what your outcome is supposed to be. What is not your intention? What is it? And my your intention starts with, okay, I worked hard gonna pitch this idea. And then the outcome changes to Okay. I'm just out of here because the energy's wrong, right? And then you go home, and you go, Okay, wait a minute. My intention was to share what I just sweated and created, because that thing I created is a part of me, and it's meant to be shared. Yes, and that system is supposed to be built for that, no matter who's in the room or what this guy says. And we rebuild the system by going, Okay, I have to know that I'm getting this idea out. And we're going to create a system where that never happens again, and if it does happen, we're going to stop in the middle. We're going to go outside and talk, and I'm going to go back in, and you're going to stay back out here. I'm going to protect my ballerina at all costs.

Paul Bunch: 16:11

That's dude. That was the end result. That was the breakthrough moment for me. It's like, I had it really needed to be so clear about the situation was so humiliating for me personally, and there was nobody else to blame but me. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I'm saying blame, but, like, I. There was no way to get responsibility for That's right. It was like this was on me, and I had to figure out if I'm supposed to be the president of this organization. How do I create a scenario that I can share with other people? And so I had to fix myself before I could do it for these other people we were working with, right? And so it was a big, big moment for me

Terence Shigg: 16:56

that is, and like I said, That's picture perfect of the idea and the story. And it's always amazing to me how there are significant events that we remember in story form that just kind of stand out to go, okay, that's, yeah, that's the thing that makes it so that I know what I need to do. And being a storyteller yourself, I think it's, it's awesome that you can pick these things out. Now, are there? Is there? Well, first of all, oh, explain a pitch, because I know what that is, but I don't know if everybody knows that.

Paul Bunch: 17:33

Okay, so, yeah, you often times you're given a very brief summary of of an idea, and you you take that and you flesh it out, you create these. It always starts with the main character, right? You go, start with a character and that that character. You ask, what does that character want? What do they do to get what they want, right? So the need becomes the driving force, or the motivation, and then what they do becomes your action beats, right? So it's very it's always just every scene that you write is, what does the character want, and what do they do to get what they want? So this pitch really comes out of those two and this is just kind of writing one on one, right, right? And so then we so you take the idea and you write a, what's called a synopsis, right? The synopsis has various break introduction of the character, introductor of the main need, the main premise of what, what's going to happen, the action. And then really, some three or four really important highlights that are going to further the journey, create a major obstacle, and then overcome that major obstacle, right? So, and then you visualize that into what's called a pitch deck, right? The pitch deck is the image of a main character, you know, some high energy moment, and there's a little bit about the background of the character, and then you create some really cool images that kind of talk about the tone. You want to create a tone like, is it an action movie? Is it a love story? Whatever that is, the pitch deck should immediately visually explain the tone like, what do you what kind of party are you getting invited to? Right? Yeah. So, so, so, yeah. So you combine this synopsis with a pitch deck, and then you walk in and and you kind of put it all together verbally, and you explain your story. So that's kind of a short version of what a pitch is, right?

Terence Shigg: 19:22

Okay, cool. And so we owe you about 499 for that, that class. I'll leave a link in the in the notes. I'll take it. Yeah, man, I love it. I love it. So now I know a little bit about the history. Can you give a little bit of your story? Because we kind of just jumped into it. Oh, you got to where you are.

Paul Bunch: 19:47

Well, I mean, it's funny because you say my story, in many ways, is our story. Terence, yes, we, I mean, you know me, me and you grew up in our neighborhood. My artist, I still call it our neighborhood, right? 35th Street, Western and Jefferson, the 30s, as they called it. So, yeah, we grew up in basically south central and just young men from very similar families like your mother and my mother were strong, independent Christian women, right? And they brought us up with some serious rules and a belt. And look, man, I love everything about kind of the the environment we grew up in, because people forget, you know, they talk about South Central is like the gang territory. And of course, we knew gang, but there was gang people in the room, but they forget about the beautiful families, like 95% of our neighborhood, it's a beautiful families like yours and mine, yeah, so, or the woman across the street, Miss Grisby, who, you know, the old blind lady who taught me how to play piano and plant, you know, flowers, these type of beautiful people. That's what I think about. But so, so, yes, growing up in the neighborhood was, was a, was an amazing experience, you know. And I it's reflected in my work. You know what I mean? You'll, you'll see people that you recognize in every movie, you know, all right, every story kind of I you know, these days in Hollywood, people are very interested in diversity, which is wonderful. But the beautiful thing that I tell people was long before Hollywood was in. In diversity. The first movie I ever made featured a black woman is the lead. Like, I don't have to check those boxes, you know, our stories are at River Rock are diverse, just because that's who we are, right, right? That's how we came up. You know, I think about a party or a family. I see it in my experiences. So I don't have to, I never have to worry about having diverse stories, because it's just that's the way, that's the way I think. But so we, you know, you remember my father, who kind of I grew up in a single family. My mother was our main provider, but, but my father, in his day, was a writer director as well. So so as I got became a teenager, I kind of rekindled a relationship with him, and he did share with me a lot of the early insight. And so I wrote my first screenplay when I was 18 years old, and he he became my mentor, you know, giving me notes my father gave me, really and he was a tough My father was a very tough kind of mentor. He would he would tell you if it was trash, and some of the early writing was it was very valuable that I had a mentor who cared enough to tell me the truth, right? And he also told me the truth when I told him, one day he he came back from a European trip and I shared with him, I was like, Hey, Dad, I'm the lead singer of a rock band now. And he was like, really? He was like, we were supposed to go to lunch. And this is a sidebar story, but it's interesting the mentorship. He was like, so you're a singer, okay? And he made a left turn, and I was like, Where are we going? And he goes, Well, you know, sing something for me. So he took me to Debbie Reynolds studios on Lancashire, because Debbie Reynolds was a good friend of his, all growing up and stuff. So we go in, and there's this old Jewish guy at the piano working on some musical and he goes, Hey, Sid, can I interrupt for a second? And he's like, Sure, we're just taking a break. He goes, my son is a singer. He's gonna sing something for you. And I'm looking like, Oh no, this is not going to go well. So Sid goes. The old guy goes, like, what do you want to sing? And I'm like, he's like, How about Billy Joel, honesty? And I was like, I think I know it. And he starts playing it. And you remember a bit, he's like, honesty. And he goes, hold it. And he goes, hit this note, ding. And I'm like, LA, ding, LA. And he gets a cigarette, looks at my dad and goes, Jack, your son is tone deaf. And we we walked out of there very quietly, got back in the car and drove for some pizza in a and it was a quiet drive to the pizza joint. I was mad as hell. I had just been humiliated and my and then we sat down and still didn't say a word at the table. And then finally a pizza came, and my dad just looked at me as he was about to take a bite, and he was like, so you're going to go back to writing. And I was like, Sure. And so look mentorship moment. Yeah, he saved me five years of pretending I was a singer, singer, and we went right back to writing. So yeah, that was important.

Terence Shigg: 24:38

And it also to me, it plays a part in your ability to find and look for creatives that do music.

Paul Bunch: 24:46

Oh yes, yes. Look, it's sad, man. You know I, I tell people all the time, I love to sing, but nobody wants to hear it. I don't stop it. Doesn't stop me. If you put me in a karaoke room with some drinks, you're going to hear some terrible singing, but, but it doesn't stop me, because there's joy. And then, like, I tell people, if there was a genie you know, who came out of a lamp and said, you get one wish about something you could change about yourself. I would go make me sing a cross between Prince and Steve Perry sing, right? And so like and so when I hear talented singers, man, it makes me very emotional, right? Because there's nothing. It's kind of like a magical thing. Somebody just breathing air through their vocal cords and creating this gorgeous something that just moves you to chills. It's a beautiful, almost a spiritual experience for me to hear people really who can sing

Terence Shigg: 25:49

right, which is right in line with your creative abilities, because the things that you create, and I've seen several of your your movies, are the same way. They are works of art. And they create emotion, they create thought, they provoke meaning, they make you this is kind of one of my standards when I, when I see creative things, they make you better than you were before you thought interesting.

Paul Bunch: 26:20

Yeah, love that, yeah. And that's important. So you, you know, you so I went to, I we had, we had some trouble growing up, you know, I started Loyola High School and got K. Kicked out. Went to Dorsey high school, got kicked out. We won't go into details there, but there was a pattern, though, it was some issues. So, and then I found, you know, I found my tribe at Hollywood professional school. That was, like, my father's last thing. He was like, All right, I'm taking you to Holly Professor school. Don't get kicked out, right? So, and that was where, you know, I had to audition, you know, I had to audition there. And so I they had all sorts of creative that was like a creative school, right? That was immediately, the first thing I did was audition for a play, and I ended up getting the lead of a play. And the other person that I was in the lead with was Tatum O'Neill, the actress just won an Academy Award. So all of a sudden people are like, Dude, you're now in a play with Tana Moni. And I was like, oh, you know, I didn't know what she was, right? So and So anyway, that was the beginning of this journey. Really, one

Terence Shigg: 27:28

of the things I love to listen to stories, especially stories that are impactful and that guide us. Because I, I really believe that sometimes we're pushed into our purpose. Yeah, your dad taking you to that studio, right? And you getting kicked out of these schools, you may think, oh, man, how's it? But really, it just moved you to where you were supposed

Paul Bunch: 27:52

to be correct because I didn't fit. I didn't fit in your Loyola was such a regimented like you. It didn't make sense to me that the teachers, the teachers at Loyola, were so strict, bro. They were like, these Jesuit priests, and if, and they told me, like, because I like to talk, as you can see, right? And they were like, Mr. Bunch, are you having a conversation in the back? And I was like, Yes, sir, I am. I was like, my friend here is very interesting. And it didn't work. My what I, who I was, didn't work in that environment, in that environment. And then, like, then there was also, you know, I was, I was a little different, because I was the white kid from an all black neighborhood, right, right? And so I used to hang with some like my friend Raymie Richard, who was also from and, like, some of the white kids didn't like that. They were like, Why is he always with the black kids? And so there was a problem. And we'll, you know, you know how these things happen. It got a little, got a little messy, and they just figured, let's get rid of him, so that I didn't fit. And then Dorsey, same thing. Well, I, you know, I had the other end where, I don't know if you remember Judy Sanders, you remember Judy Sanders? She was the girl in our neighborhood, I know he talking about. So I rolled into Dorsey High School as the only white dude at Dorsey High School, and immediately Judy, who was in our from our neighborhood, started hanging out with me, and all the guys wanted Judy Sanders, and they were like, hell no. Like, This dude just came to high school and just gets the because she was the finest cheerleader. She was the it girl, right? So yeah, that didn't go well. Some of the guys was just like, Dude, we need to, we need to do something about this kid. So then I, then I like, as they say, I found my tribe when I walked in to Holly professional school, and it was just all these broken kids from, you know, most of the people who went there were create, people who were engaging in creativity because they didn't fit in the normal high schools, right? And so that's, you know, that's where I found my tribe, and off we go, you know. Then I went, took acting classes at Howard fine studios, right? All the way up to masterclass. You'll recall, I was at the groundling School of improv in the Sunday company for two years. It started, started doing, you know, stand up, it's not Well, I tried stand up and fail, but then it became sketch comedy. I was with a sketch comedy troupe, and front from that sketch comedy started making short films. And my short films, I never did film school, but for a series of about five years there, I made a lot of short films, really trying to hone my craft right as a young director, trying to and it's not easy for me. Everything kind of takes longer for me to learn, just because of who I am. And, yeah, one thing led to another. Eventually started making some decent films, won some awards, and that's where things took off. You know that all of a sudden the Cavanaugh family came and met with me and and, yeah, some made mate shot, shot, and wrote and direct my first feature film. And then that led to the second feature, which your daughter is in. Yes, talented young daughter is in my second future. But, yeah, man, that it's been a wild ride, and I, but I every morning I get up Terence, and I still, it's a blessing, because I still feel like most of the really amazing. Stuff is in front of me. You know what I mean? Yes, there's still a lot of the mountain left to climb.

Terence Shigg: 31:38

That's and that's what I want other people to recognize, that that is possible. Because I think a lot of times we get so caught up in the survival of life that we forget that that doesn't mean that you can't still serve your purpose and enjoy it and be optimistic and creative and help people, and all those things that people always say, airy fairy, but it's really that's humanity is. That's why there's so many of us around. Is because we're supposed to interact and learn and grow and all those other cool things that people think are secondary.

Paul Bunch: 32:15

Love that. Yeah, man. So it's interesting when I hear you talk about creating, you know, how is it that you describe? How would you describe, kind of the journey I've been on in the package that you're teaching? How would you how would you label it so?

Terence Shigg: 32:35

And then it's interesting you say that, because I always tell people, I've gotten to the point now is I see systems every time people talk, yeah, um, and I think once you start seeing them, you can't unsee them. And that's why I say you kind of were pushed into your purpose, but the creative side of you, the pattern is the system needs energy. It needs it and it needs to get rid of energy. It needs it to flow. So come in and go. Yeah, so your experiences have taught you that you have to find your tribe. Your tribe's not going to come and find you, yep. And part of finding your tribe meaning knowing what it's supposed to look like, and you have a very clear, distinct picture of what it looks like, yeah. And that allows you to not kick people out, but allows you to know, okay, this person's here for a reason, and it's a season, but it's not permanent, right?

Paul Bunch: 33:37

Yeah, no, that's so interesting, man, what you're describing for as like recognizing my tribe and that, and how to how, like to build a system that makes sense to me is really difficult for me. And I suppose everyone goes through an experience like that, because early on, what I saw in my head didn't work for other people, right? Lot of people would dismiss kind of the way I was going about my business, because it didn't make sense to them. It doesn't translate. It doesn't translate to them. And, like, there was this weird law process of, you know, starting down a path, getting resistance, and then you have to, you know, it's like the world is like, sometimes telling you no, that doesn't work. And then you have to decide, well, how can I make it work for me? How can I make it work using the tools I have, right?

Terence Shigg: 34:43

And so I have this rule that I use. I I always go on an information when I get into those standpoints, I go for information gathering section. I consume the information, I translate the information, I create something out of the information, then I communicate it. And it's usually if I go through those steps, then I can, because when I trans, when I'm communicating it, it's already been translated, okay, and so that way I can share it. But if I just try to go from idea to communicate, yeah, most people, it doesn't make any sense.

Paul Bunch: 35:22

No man, I get that. That's I see. So what? What's the first one? Again? What's the first

Terence Shigg: 35:29

to gather information? So as you and I'm, I'm infamous for reading four or five books at a time, but then I'll start seeing the patterns and how they go together. And to me, that's the information gathering stage you. That's your creative stage when you're getting the idea right, when things are starting to come to you and you're saying, Okay, I want to write a love story. Yeah. And you start thinking about the different examples of love and the movies and the people, and you take all that in, then you start translating that to Okay, what does that mean? Who's the character? What type of story is this? Even if it's a love story, could be a comedy, love, a drama, love, an action, love. And then it starts to get and now once you translate it, you start to put pen to paper, fingers, the type you translate it, yeah. And then once you get it fine tuned, that's when you communicate it interesting, interesting.

Paul Bunch: 36:25

Yeah, it's funny. The way you're because, because, look, you're the way you're talking about it is in. Gaging. What you just described is how I would create a story. But I think I can, I also relate to what you're saying, because it's also how I build a bit built the business saying, yeah, really what applies for the character in the story applies for me in real life, building the business.

Terence Shigg: 36:51

And that's the thing, with the patterns in the system, it doesn't just apply to individuals. It applies to groups. You can look at a Starbucks, you can look at a Burger King. They all have a system. And there's a when I say, I see patterns, I joke around and say, I see Herbies. There's this book called The Goal. He calls it Theory of Constraints, and a Herbie is the choke point. It's like the weakest link. So the rule is that you can only do as well, go as fast, be as successful as the weakest link. And so if you find the weakest link and you improve it, yeah, and then the system gets better. But there'll be another one. So now you find the next one.

Paul Bunch: 37:39

I wonder, what our week? What is my that's a great question for me to think about, like, what

Terence Shigg: 37:44

is and it works? Yeah, it works for individuals as well as groups. So as you and I do it with my yearly goals and everything. So if you look at it from an individual standpoint, it starts with the the goal. If my goal is to be, you know, a great writer, yeah, and I'm putting in the time, but I'm not getting the impact that I want. What is it? What's the weakest link? Is it the amount of time that it takes to create each one? Is it the stories that I'm telling don't fit the genre? What is that? And as we find that, then we can go, Okay, how do I improve that? Do I do I write some more marketable ones to sustain me, while I do the creative ones? Do I find other talent that can work on these minor ones. And I think of it that way, because there's a great thing that Stephen King did where he started selling some of his short stories for $1 so that kids could get the experience of writing these short films, yeah, and learn the craft and hone their craft, and sometimes that's but to To me, that's just an example of him expanding knowing that I have all these stories. I can't write them. So let me give somebody else that's his choke point. Is he can't actually write all the stories and ideas that he comes up with, right? So he makes a vehicle for somebody else to do some of that work.

Paul Bunch: 39:16

Got it? Got it, yeah, man, that's a, that's a really interesting I think it's critical to analyze where your weakest, where, like, I, I'm gonna give that some additional thought, because I think we, I like, you know, because you have to check in, you have to take the pulse of the patient every once in a while,

Terence Shigg: 39:37

yeah, and that's part of the I mean, that's part of the process, and that's what as you develop and grow. And one of the things that you want to pass on is to make sure that you can do these things so that other people don't have to go through all the like, I think your your vibe story or the energy story, now that you know that the people you teach, they don't have to figure that out, right? You can tell them, hey, you're going to get into situations where the energy is going to be off, right, and you're going to have to be able to to figure out what that thing is and set the stage beforehand, so that everybody knows and is on the same page that this is a creative process, the business process we'll take care of later, but this is a creative process, and when we're doing the creatives process, we don't scare the ballerina.

Paul Bunch: 40:29

No, no no, that dude, that's like, it has become a mantra. Like everybody, everybody at River Rock, talks about, oh, Paul's ballerina is cooking. I'm not kidding, she's he's on fire. It's like, yeah, that's a funny thing that is shared often. But like, yeah, I feel like what you're describing is something we I need to circle back to again and just see if we can get better. See what we're are there any choke points right now that I'm not aware of? You know, it's a worthy, it's a worthy time spent.

Terence Shigg: 41:01

Yes, yeah. And it's, it's, it's exciting once you see it like and one of my things is, once you see it, you can't unsee it, and you'll start seeing it. In more and more places the movie, like I see people say, I see dead people. Yeah, I I see patterns, and I see her, there's people talk, and I'll watch something on the news, or I see this, the choke points just pop out to me. So it's something that, as you do it more and more. You get to see, oh, that's what it is. You put your finger on it, and once you put your finger on it, now you can make a choice. You need to say it's there. And I want it there because I want to have this safe zone, or, okay, let's dive in there. Let's figure it out. Yeah, let's fix it.

Paul Bunch: 41:52

Yeah, you know, one of the things I was dealing with the other day was, and I guess this is a question for your like, perhaps, how might we use your system to get through this scenario? And what, what I was, what I was describing to my team was, what, there's this, there's this fine line where you know when you're when you're putting a project, a particular idea, let's say, and I won't go into the specifics of the idea, but so there was this one particular idea, a that I was working on, and we pitched it a couple times, and we didn't get the right response that I was looking for right. And the conversation was, well, maybe we should set that idea aside and pitch them something different. And I was like, in my gut, I was like, but I know this is a good idea. And I was kind of, I was trying to measure, where is the where? How much faith do you have in your gut, as opposed to, when do you shift and move on when your gut is screaming No, trust your instincts. Trust your instincts, and can your instincts be wrong? You know, it's a it's a diabolical scenario

Terence Shigg: 43:18

that I don't think your instincts can be wrong, but the goal can be missed. It could be a different goal. Yeah, that changed. But when I hear somebody say that, my gut tells me my first question goes to my mind is, if you're in a room with collaborators, yeah, and people talk about moving on. I ask, What if you ask, What if you shut the door, meaning, what if you say, Okay, we're not moving on. Let's fix this and let's make this great. Yep, what would be how would that changed the conversation.

Paul Bunch: 43:53

Interesting, yeah. Well, I mean, so the example has to do with, you know, throughout there's a lot of historical examples of someone like, for instance, you ever seen the movie The greatest showman? Yes. Okay, so that movie, I know the director, Michael, and it took him 12 years to get that movie off the ground. And there was an endless list of executives he had met with that listen to his idea and said, Nope, that's trash. And they told them they're that doing because it was a musical and it was about a circus. They felt it was outdated. They felt that he didn't have the chops to do a big musical. No one's ever going to pay some unknown director to do a musical. There was they. Everyone told him he could never do it, and he just kept doing it. And the question eventually he meets, I always forget his name, the actor from Wolverines. Oh yeah. Hugh Jackman, you're right. Hugh Jackman, so he runs, he's on the set of a movie, and he becomes close with friends during a lunch period, he's talking with Hugh and and he pitches the idea to him, and Hugh goes, Look, when the movie's over, he was like, let's talk about that. That's interesting. And so they started talking about it more and more, and now Hugh's got it, and Hugh wants to do it, but now Hugh's going around pitching it to everyone, and they're going, Hugh, he's pitching at the same people, and they're going, we heard that from that director Dude, we hate this idea, right? But someone like Hugh and this dude, once you found two people together, they were like, forget everybody else. We're gonna do this because we believe in it, right? And they ended up saying, Let's have a meeting. All we got to do is get one more actor, famous actor, to jump on board, and that will crack everybody else. So they invited this director, and Hugh Jackman invited the actress, Zendaya to lunch, and Hugh called her and told her just a little bit about the idea. And originally she said, Oh, man, I love you, Hugh, but I'm going to pass and he was like, why? And she was like, because I just came. This was when she was just coming out of her Nickelodeon, shake it up and all that she didn't she wanted to be known as a series actor. She didn't want to do a musical. He goes. Goes, do me a favor. Just come to lunch. Just come to lunch. So she agrees, but she's gonna, in her mind, she's just gonna show up and say no, she's just being nice. The director said, I have an idea. I'm going to have a huge painting of the character that we are asking her to play. Remember the look she played, the girl on the trapeze, love interest of Zac Efron? Well, they painted this beautiful oil painting, a huge oil painting that he had commissioned for this painter. And it's the moment where she's on the trapeze, and it comes up to the to the balcony, and her eyes first meet Zac Efron, and she her hands are out like this. So they paint her, and they put it at the entrance of this lunch meeting. And so she's walking up, and when she walks in, she stops, and she sees a painting of herself in the role on oil. And you know, oil paintings are just pure soul, right? It's emotional. And she looked at this and almost started crying, and went in and goes, Okay, I'm in. And the three of them, finally, there's a third person. They go to those executives and go, we're making this movie. And the executives finally were like, what do they see that I don't see? But are and they caved. One executive cave. And so my point is everyone kept telling these guys they were wrong that director, until finally someone backed him right. And now, after all these years of people who were very qualified telling him, you're stupid, this is a worthless idea, that movie was nominated for the movie the year, right? And this guy goes on to be this huge director. Now, Michael is killing it. Now, right? At what point, for me, it's like this mystery. At what point do you do you stop and go? How much do I trust my gut? How much when do I, you know, what is that shift, where I go? All right, I'm going to shift to something else. Or do I just stick to my guns? It's very tricky.

Terence Shigg: 48:41

Yeah, and I love that again story, because the one thing, well, the one thing I would ask is, for the 12 years, what else did he do?

Paul Bunch: 48:52

Not much. He was getting being an assistant director. He was working, he was working, but, but still kind of moving through the steps of meeting people right that he could pitch the idea to, right?

Terence Shigg: 49:04

So to me, okay, that is the system, meaning my gut says this. I'm gonna go with this. I'm gonna keep moving in this but I'm not going to ignore my craft, right? Because I still need to to survive, or I need to create and get better. And that is but I think as he took the time he got better at the pitch, maybe, maybe the story didn't change. Oh, but him getting the idea of the oil painting and putting it there and getting someone who knows them, to me, that is the system interesting. It's evolving. Is how do I get this person to say, Yes, got it. Okay, we need one more person. Okay, I get who you Jackman, I need one more person. I need an oil painting. That's the system that we're looking at. Interesting. His gut never changed, but his system on how to get that outcome, yeah, evolved.

Paul Bunch: 50:05

Right. Interesting, yes, okay, everything comes back to the system, baby.

Terence Shigg: 50:12

Yeah, it is. And it's like I said, I can't not see it, but it's, and it's a simplified version, but everything it's, and I start looking at it, it's almost like a solar system, because every individual system plays out in a bigger system, be it your job, be it your relationship, and they're all on top of each other, existing in orbit, got it. And the driving factor, the filter that makes that system run, is your purpose, and the clearer you are with that, the easier it is to change the system. Because a lot of the times, I think the problem happens when we change the system, and it's not in alignment with our purpose, meaning I just got to go make some money, so I'm gonna go over here on this corner and I'm gonna sell this stuff, yeah, money so I can provide for my family. Well, yeah, but that's not who you're built to be. So when you get beat down or thrown in jail, you're like, Oh, damn all this. Why this always happened to me? Yep, because you're going outside of your purpose to do something that's legit, yeah, but that's not in alignment with who you are, right, right? Maybe like you going back into construction so that you can save up some money, yeah? But you be miserable, yeah?

Paul Bunch: 51:29

Got it crazy? Right? Very, very good stuff. Man, I loved it. Very good stuff. Terence, yeah, and

Terence Shigg: 51:37

you do and, and I, one of the things I was thinking about when I was talking to you is you do it every day. That's what your stories are. You're creating systems. Every person you create a system for them to exist. It's amazing. Amazing.

Paul Bunch: 51:54

Yep, I love it. Love it. Alright, brother, what a great excuse me. What a great time. And actually, I'm going to seriously engage in in some additional thoughts about how I can use this for things that we're dealing with today. It's a very useful long term and short term,

Terence Shigg: 52:17

yes, and that's that's the goal for it, and I want it to be something that people can utilize, not just in their own lives, but because it works for businesses. I mean, if you have a business, or if you work in a business, you can look at it and go, Man, this system's messed up. Yeah, we don't. Our customer service sucks. Our bosses suck.

Paul Bunch: 52:40

So fix it. You need a new system, right?

Terence Shigg: 52:44

And then that's what it is. But one of the things, when we're done, I'll let you go. I know you're busy. I was listening to Simon Sinek, yeah, and he was talking about the whole thing about finding his purpose and talking to his friends. And one of the things he said is that you'll help define your purpose by asking your friends, why are we friends? Ooh, and it's like, not just proximity, but what's the thing that I provide to you that makes us friends? Wow. And so the thing that I wanted to give you as a gift, because I started thinking about that, and the thing that came up for me all the time is, when I think about our friendship, is you provide a home base

Paul Bunch: 53:32

for me. Amen, you do the same for me.

Terence Shigg: 53:35

It reminds me of where I came from, yeah, what I've done, but it also reminds me of somebody that knows me for who I am, no matter, even when I get lost. Amen, you're my home base. So I wanted to let you know that

Paul Bunch: 53:52

so valuable, that's so valuable, Terence, and you look, we're that for each other, bro, we're that for each other. All right, brother, all right, Terence,

Terence Shigg: 54:01

have a good day. You