Episode 2 of 3: Selecting the Right Person and Reducing Hiring Risk

Host: Jason Howes, Arrow Executive Sales
Guest: Jackie Strachan, CEO, HR Tactics

In Episode 2 of the three-part recruitment and retention series, Jason Howes is joined by Jackie Strachan, CEO of HR Tactics, to explore one of the most costly and critical challenges facing Australian businesses today: selecting the right person and reducing hiring risk.

Building on Episode 1, which focused on defining the role and creating clarity, this discussion dives into the selection process itself. Jason and Jackie unpack why too many hiring decisions are still being made based on gut feel, industry experience, or whether someone simply "feels right" in an interview.

The conversation highlights the importance of moving beyond resumes and focusing on what really predicts future success: past performance, behaviours, mindset, personal qualities, and cultural alignment.

Key Discussion Points

✅ Why clear and current position descriptions are the foundation of successful recruitment.

✅ The difference between skills that can be taught and personal qualities that are much harder to change.

✅ Why businesses should stop searching for the "perfect unicorn" candidate and instead focus on developing the strengths of strong performers.

✅ How behavioural interviewing helps uncover past performance and conduct.

✅ The role of reference checking, assessments, and structured interview processes in reducing hiring mistakes.

✅ Why sales leaders and HR professionals must work together to ensure hiring decisions align with business goals.

✅ The hidden cost of slow decision-making during recruitment and how top candidates are often lost through delays.

✅ Why candidates are evaluating employers just as much as employers are evaluating candidates.

✅ Real-world examples of recruitment successes, mistakes, and lessons learned.

✅ The financial impact of poor hiring decisions and the importance of building a repeatable, structured recruitment process.

Key Takeaway

Great recruitment is not about filling seats. It's about aligning the right person with the right role, the right expectations, and the right environment for long-term success.

As Jackie shares throughout the episode:

"The best predictor of future performance and conduct is past performance and conduct."

When recruitment is approached strategically, businesses improve performance, increase retention, reduce costly hiring mistakes, and create a stronger foundation for growth.

Coming Up in Episode 3

Jason and Jackie will discuss:

Onboarding and Aligning Culture to Drive Performance and Retention

This episode explores why onboarding starts long before a new employee's first day and how culture, preparation, leadership, and employee experience all contribute to long-term success.

About Our Guest

Jackie Strachan

CEO & Founder | HR Tactics

Jackie Strachan and her HR Tactics team are highly experienced HR professionals  who help Australian businesses build stronger, more compliant, and higher-performing workplaces. Through HR Tactics, Jackie supports organisations with HR strategy & advice, Fair Work & WHS compliance, employment contracts, policies, position descriptions, recruitment processes, performance management, leadership support, employee relations and employment law. 

Website: https://hrtactics.com.au
Email: jackie@hrtactics.com.au
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-strachan-0005011a/

About the Host

Jason Howes

Managing Director | Arrow Executive Sales

Jason Howes is a highly experienced sales leader, recruiter, and business growth specialist who helps Australian businesses attract, recruit, and retain high-performing sales professionals. Through Arrow Executive Sales and his Crystal Ball Recruiting framework, Jason supports organisations with sales recruitment, candidate assessment, onboarding, sales team development, sales process improvement, training, and sales transformation strategies designed to accelerate growth and improve performance.

Website: https://arrowexec.com.au | https://jasonhowes.com.au/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Welcome to the sales trajectory podcast, where innovation meets execution in sales. I'm Jason Howes, your host, a 35-year sales veteran and lifelong student of the game. This podcast is for leaders and sales professionals with a growth mindset. You'll hear real sales stories about new products, motivating teams to prospect, and boost productivity. We dive deep into sales process, cutting edge tech, and recruiting top sales performers. Let's get started. Welcome to the Sales Trajectory Podcast. Today I'm joined again by Jackie Strawn from HR Tactics. Great to see you again, Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Hi Jason, good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

This is part of episode two of three, which is very important in our daily environment working with sales leaders and professionals. Episode one with Jackie, we spoke about defining the role to create clarity and structure. Episode two is about selecting the right person, hiring risk. And episode three, we thought we would do a quick recap on the first episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Absolutely. Look, being clear about the position with applicants is just so critical. People are humans are driven by purpose. Look, 90% of the issues between employees and employers, we find come basically as a result of that lack of clarity. So clarity across the position description, the advert that you put out, they're just so critical. And um, we did talk about in that first episode about if roles change, it's really important to keep updating the the position description because that that position description should be current at all times throughout the employees time with you and essentially used it like a Bible. It should be guiding the recruitment, the performance reviews, and and sometimes even termination. It can really help uh us as HR consultants when things get rocky with employees and they just can't be turned around.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

We also spoke about mindset and personal qualities being critical because they're harder to change.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Somebody's knowledge and their skills are much easier to change to train them up on things. But when it comes to personal qualities and mindset, they're much harder to change. So that's why we always put those in, select the the ones that are most critical to success in the role and make sure that they're in the position description. So again, the clarity piece, the employees can see, okay, I need high standards of literacy or I need a really risk mindset in this role stuff. We really have to look at growing from within more and more often.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

It's interesting you say that because uh you know, I look back to a lot of the companies we recruit for and the discussions that I had with leaders and they're all looking for the unicorn, you know. It's really what you can do with those other two boxes once they start. And I think that's the the the mindset of where it is really need to look at.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Knowing what those boxes actually are is the first piece, isn't it? Knowing what you need to tick off in dates that you're that you're interviewing.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

So that brings us to the next step, which leads us into episode two is how to select the right person and also to set them up to succeed. So with that in mind, uh we obviously look at clarity, alignment, and structure. And yeah, so how do you select the right person and set them up to succeed? That's the next episode. So let's start talking about this this important area here. Jackie, a lot of hiring today is still based on interviews, personality, or whether someone feels right.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, correct. Look, uh, to make a really well-informed selection decision, I just, you know, just don't make the mistake of just focusing on on say years of experience, industry background, previous companies. Instead, the focus should be also on things like what outcomes, what knowledge, what skills, as I said before, personal qualities and mindset, that specific knowledge of what technology maybe they need to be advanced or intermediate or platforms or what have you that you're using in the enroll. And being clear on what levels of performance that you need in the particular role you're recruiting. And have they delivered that in the past? Because one thing hasn't changed in the area of recruitment and selection in so many years. The best you know this, Jason, the best predictor of future performance and conduct is past performance and conduct. So the interviews that you're running, they need to have behavioral questions in them to find out about someone's past performance. They need to have behavioral questions in them to find out about people's past conduct. Other selection tools like reference checks, make sure you're including questions there about past performance and past conduct. So you're drawing that out of the referees. The very old school recruitment processes of just looking at the resume, the years of experience, industry background previous companies are working for, it's just far too one-dimensional these days.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Look, some things haven't changed. You're right, and I've been there. I mean, you're a business leader or a sales leader, you are under the pump, you're juggling many balls right now, you're planning for next year, you're trying to get target for this year, you got staff on holidays, you've got problems with products or getting supply. A lot of people are still hiring on gut feel. If they like somebody, that doesn't always get the right person on board. And if you want to uh reduce the risk, well then that does it's it's a tough one, isn't it? Because I mean you can't slow down your process too much because then you could potentially miss out on a good candidate, but you don't want to rush to offer someone a job until you've uncovered the information that's required, as you said, to make sure that they are a good performer and you are having a structured interview process that follows guidelines and not just, hey, hey, going what's happening, you know, like, oh yeah, you're a good bloke. Uh you've worked for the competitor, uh, I'm gonna give you a go because I'm desperate to get someone in the in the seat.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

No, it's so critical that each step in the in your recruitment process is designed to, again, going back to the position description, everything in there, sort of reverse engineering it into questions or selection tools, whether it be um, you know, some sort of activity, um, workplace sort of assessment that you're getting them to do to draw out knowledge as to where they how proficient they are in in that skill, or whether they actually have a particular personal quality, or whether they approach a a task with a certain mindset that you really need in this in the in the the right person for the role. Each step, you know, the add the phone screen that you do with them, the uh the interview stage, the reference checks, the psychometric assessments you might use in there as well, which are a great way to bring another whole level of insight into candidates. Yeah, you can have a number of steps in each in your recruitment process. But uh but yes, you drawing it out too long, you're right, Jason. You these days you'll you'll have the potential to lose candidates because they've taken something else. Keeping them warm throughout the process, giving them updates. Look, I'm still got a couple of other people to interview. Um, I'm conscious time is marching on. Are you, you know, you're still interested or wanna let you know that we're still interested. So give them an idea of a next time frame that they might hear from you. But yeah, not not too long. But what do we say? We say hire slow, fire fast.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

I think the candidate is watching the behaviour of the not only the recruiter, but also from the client, right? So I mean, if the client isn't responding or if they're not making a decision or they're not setting a next step or they're too busy to talk, well then that's the sort of environment you're potentially walking into. And and we've had that. So we've had candidates say, Look, I've taken another role, you guys stuffed around too long. You know, and it's it's hard for me. I had a discussion with this with the sales leader today, and he's a new sales leader, and he said to me, How's it going? I said, I need you to talk to me quicker. I need I need you to respond. We've presented a candidate, I need to know within one or two days whether you want to proceed with him or not.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Mm-hmm.

unknown 9:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

And he goes, Look, I appreciate you saying that. He said, I'm s I'm still learning and I'm busy. And I said, Look, I understand that you're busy and I'm here to help you take that pressure off your shoulders, but you need to be able to work with me because the people are the candidates are watching ha your behaviour. And and I think that's really important. Uh and I remember I remember getting caught up in situations. As I said, end of financial year, not a great time, right? Um but I think if we go back to what we're talking about before as well, like I've presented candidates, I've had a candidate go for an interview with a business owner, and then the candidate rings me back and he goes, Man, that person's got no idea what they want.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

They've got no idea what they want. I don't deal with that client anymore for that reason. I've got to have the confidence of where we're sending people into uh is is a good environment for success. And and I think what you mentioned before is it's it's about aligning the right role with the right person. And that means, you know, really it means that we need to be clear about well what does the job actually involve and how it's done and what a success looks like because you really want to know early on, don't you? If you're gonna select a candidate to move them forward and or to hire them, well then they've it's got to fit. And I had a discussion today with a guy and he said, Look, that's not where I want to be, that's not the market I want to operate. And I said, No problem.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

But I always try and take some value from the call, you know, always ask a question, or I'll or I'll say, you know, ask about his current remuneration, because I want to be able to use that for my own business to to help us understand uh more about what's happening in the in the business environment.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yep, yep, great, great. No, look, if it's not right for somebody, then it's it's actually better that they opt out. Don't waste their time anymore, don't wait the waste your time, the client's time. But that's where the clarity piece comes in so well at the beginning. Some I think some hirers they'll think, oh make it sound so rosy and so great, but not everything is actually true. And then the employee gets in there and they find out that a lot of what they've been told isn't true. And that's a recipe for disaster.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Absolutely. Sharing another story, got a call this morning. We'd hired a candidate, they accept the job, they were there for a month, and then they turn around and said, We've been I've been offered a better deal, and they resigned. And which was unfortunate. But today, about five weeks later, I got a just got a call today saying he's back. So the guy's actually he's eaten humble pie. He said, Look, I'm sorry I made the wrong decision. I really liked my time within that I was at the business, and you know, will you have me back? And they did, they took him back. So that's a interesting story as well. That that's the first time that's happened to me, actually.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

That's great, and they took him back, fabulous. Yeah, you don't want to burn bridges. Yeah, that's good. Good outcome.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Later. And uh I think if I look to um there was an example I was online the other day and I saw a company re-advertising a job six months later that I'd spoken to them about back then. So they've probably burned a hundred K by doing it themselves, thinking they're gonna save money.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah. Look, I to your point about the whoever's interviewing on the interview panel, they definitely need to be designing whatever questions that they're asking based on the already set requirements of the role. Most definitely. I mean, often we'll write if we're not on the interview panel with our clients, we'll be writing a interview guide for them to follow. And I mean, best practice, I know SMEs, you know, they feel they don't have time for this sort of stuff, but best practice is to actually be taking notes on, you know, each question so that you can look at how their answers actually demonstrated the the what you're looking for in the role. You could even have a a you know, a scale where their answer had evidence of this sort of stuff, all this, and that was like the highest mark you can sort of give them for that question, and then down to a mediocre answer, down to a you know, a lower level answer that didn't have much evidence that you were looking for, and really become very rigorous with your interviews. But but yeah, all it can all all the hard work in in designing uh the position description and communicating well in the ad and the phone screen can all go out the window if the person running the interview then isn't uh aligning what they're going to ask with what uh is important in the role. If they're just gonna go by gut feel and yeah, I had a good feel about this guy. He looks like he's got a great, you know, track record with the companies he's worked with and yeah, can be a lot more fraught with danger as far as getting a really quality outcome. It can all fall over by having the wrong person or an unskilled person in that interview.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

I know when I wrote Crystal Ball recruiting, uh there's a there's a chapter on that component, and and I think, yeah, best practice from how we interview is to interview everybody the same. Ask them the same questions in the same order. You know, a lot of people, a lot of people interviewing will tend to skip hard questions maybe if they like somebody. It could be like, oh, this person's gone pretty well, I get along well with them, I won't ask them that hard question. And I think again, if you're going to select an interview under a a process, and I'm happy to share that document or that that information with any of the listeners that they're interested, is because you really want to keep it consistent. As you said, you want to have a scorecard that's done individually, uh, but you also want to be able to push back during that interview. We hire for salespeople, so salespeople need to be able to take rejection. So yeah, I mean we do tend to push back a little bit. We're like, you know, we're not sure whether you're a good fit for this role because of a few reasons. Go and go caught go quiet and let them answer the question. I mean, if they struggle to come back and and answer that question, well then they're gonna struggle to do that in front of your clients and prospects. So yeah, I think the interview process is is really important to understand more about the person and and is it the job they really want? I mean, I had a guy today I was talking to, and look, he's desperate for a job and I feel sorry for him, but it's not a good fit, right? So I said, look, you know, you you you want 130, but you're willing to accept a job for 110 today, but what happens next week or the month later after I've hired you, that you you know, something comes along, we're gonna lose you. So I think there's you know, there's that situation at the moment too. You might think, hey, I hired a freaking really good person, and then two or three months later they're gone and you're back.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

I I think that's what sets you guys at Arrow apart, you know. So so often the recruiters, recruitment agencies, they're they're churning, they're a sales business and that well, as in they're trying to get bums on seats and make placements. But in the time I've known you, Jason and the Arrow team, you are much more than that. You're actually telling candidates, look, I know I don't think this is the role for you. Because it comes down to a real quite a social welfare role, wouldn't you agree? You know, recruitment, it's the better we can match a human with the the role that they're gonna do, hopefully, for the n next, you know, two, three, four, five or more years and be productive and happy and fulfilled and a sense of purpose in that, you know, everybody wins. But if if recruiters in positions like yours are are making poor matches, everybody loses. So anyway, that's why HR tactics are so aligned with Arrow, because we haven't aligned ourselves with any other recruiters because we're very much aligned with the values that that you have, Jason. And uh it's got to be the right decision for everyone. There's no use in placing uh the wrong candidate in a role just to get the payment from the client.

unknown 17:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Absolutely. I appreciate your kind words there, Jackie, and and you're right, it is like matchmaking. I'm a big big advocate for it's got to be the right fit for both sides, and I think it's if it sways one way too much, well, it won't last. And so I think the area we were talking about is really uh, you know, the shared responsibility of this work where the alignment is really important. Very fortunate recently to have HR Tactics build us a PD for for a uh for a new team member, which we've really enjoyed the process because we needed help. I mean, that's not our specialty. That's why, you know, we're we're here with Jackie as a guest. She's a leader in her industry, and they turned it around within 24, 36 hours, which was incredible. And it really helped us because, you know, we can provide the direction, but obviously, you know, HR must provide the structure and compliance. That's where you know HR tactics comes into play because it's not our niche. And I think sales managers must provide the coaching and support when you get that right person, and the individual must take ownership of their performance. I mean, and yeah, if if one of these are missing, well then the system breaks. So, yeah, I mean it's really important. And I think, as I said, this episode was you know focusing on selecting the right person. It it can go wrong. It's like going to the casino, red or black, right? How much are you willing to put on there? In a lot of cases, you're putting a hundred grand on each because that's what it is for a salesperson for 12 months. So, I mean, if you win, it's great. You walk out happy, if you lose, you you got your tail between your legs. And and I think, you know, right now things have to change because it's not working. 17-month average tenure on a salesperson. A lot of companies are right now. I had to go on the interview the other day, he said the company he's with, he's been there 10 years, no pay increase, you know, a struggle to get um bonuses paid. So you're talking about these are really important areas, and I understand it from a business point of view as well, because I mean the cost of doing business has increased. Everything's going up, you know, more super, you know, minimum wages, fuel. So you sort of you I think again it comes back to that, you know, how do I make a return on investment with salespeople? And it's getting really challenging. I think the days of having someone driving around, you know, seeing anybody has to stop. I would rather have less salespeople, but I really want them to be high performers and I want them to be able to be proud to have them on your team, to be able to give them the tools they need to succeed. Because as as the old saying goes, you know, you hire the best people and then you let them do their job.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yep. Look, you the labor market at the moment is very tight. And as you say, no SME, it's tough out there for them. Uh their margins are just disappearing with this and that and the other, let alone their personal life and their personal finances, the cost of everything. No SME can afford the cost of a bad hire. Um you've got soaring inflation, there's the shift towards uh job hugging. We might have mentioned that in the previous episode, but where um talent is prioritizing their security over movement to different roles. Not all of them, but some of them, even though it's not working out great in the in the role that they've taken, they will stay and stay and stay for longer than they really, you know, really should. And if the employer isn't, hasn't got some of those clarity pieces like position descriptions, employment contracts, and evidence to show where there's the mismatch, it's very hard to move them on. Um yeah, small, medium business size business owners, they're really operating in an environment where every recruitment decision is a is really high stakes. But some some the data does suggest that some businesses are really stumbling at that final hurdle. I mean, your uh recruitment process and your onboarding process can actually done well, can be a competitive advantage for your business. We've got rising costs, unlimited, you know, limited talent. Wouldn't it be good to have unlimited talent, but limited talent. So I know our next episode is going to be more about onboarding, but a really superior onboarding process. It can really be a genuine competitive advantage for you. Businesses that get that onboarding process right can end up thriving faster because they're Building that stable, engaged team that can you can turn that positive first impression into long-term productivity. So I think onboarding is a very underestimated stage in the employee life cycle. For us at HR Tactics, that onboarding actually starts with what you guys are doing at Arrow. It starts onboarding psychologically, onboarding somebody, a new hire, to us starts back when they first see the advert or first hear about it. How that comes across. Then the phone screening, the interviews, how the candidate feels that how professional they've been dealt with. And on so many levels, that is building commitment, that's building loyalty, that's building intention to stay longer. It's going to impact positively on reducing absenteeism. So that's not just from day one. That's why we sort of, although onboarding is usually thought of as from day one to sort of the end of someone's probation period, to us psychologically, it it actually starts. You're really onboarding people from right back from when they first come across the ad, and everything they see, every interaction is psychologically onboarding, making or breaking the hire in a lot of respects.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Couldn't agree more, Jackie. I think and that reflects the candidate. I had that story where the, you know, the candidate left for more money and then returned back to the business. And it's like, you know, because they had a good experience. And and and vice versa. I mean, they the business had a good experience with this candidate. So I think it's it's really important for us to talk about that. We will finish up uh this episode here. Again, if there's any questions or any other information, I'll put some notes in the in the comments as well. Love having Jackie here to be able to talk. HR, I think it's a really nice combination for sales where we're aligning, aren't we, Jackie? We're not having that great dividing range that you'll normally see. So the next episode will be about onboarding and culture where alignment becomes performance. Really uh interesting what you said there about how onboarding starts at the very beginning. I think people are watching how you behave, your performance, you know, your documentation, and and I think instead of just waiting for someone to turn up on the first day and there's no car, there's no phone, there's no contract, there's no this doesn't leave a good feeling. And I've had I've had client candidates ring me and go, hey man, I've turned up and this is a disaster. You know, and and that's not that's not what you want. So I think again for us it's about getting the right person in the right role and then giving them that opportunity to succeed in that business. So look, Jackie, anything final you want to close out with today?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

No, I guess I the the I guess final thought that comes to mind if I had one bit of advice is in your recruitment space, it would be around the designing the recruitment process around that what you've already got in the position description. A HR person can develop you the position description, but then Jason and his team need to be absolutely clear on that so they can execute a well-designed process. Starts with the PD. So anyone listening, go back to the previous episode where Jason and I were talking about the clarity piece of the position description.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Look, a little bit scarred from the the PDs over the past again. As I mentioned, under half of the companies we talk to have one that's accurate and current. There have been so many changes lately that Jackie and I have spoken about in in episode one and two, and you'll hear it in three uh episode three as well. So I think it is a really good time to make sure that is all current. Don't rely on a keep you safe. It's a big risk if you know if someone is signing documentation that is not accurate, that doesn't relate to the role they're supposed to be doing, as we mentioned, because if you do need to performance manage or if you're not onboarding aligned to all that information, well then you've got nowhere to stand. So again, Jackie, great to catch up with you, and I do appreciate your time. Thanks for being on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Thanks, Jason. Look forward to the next episode.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

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