Fire Captain | Leadership, Influence, & Bridging the Organization: Samuel Pendleton & Jake Lieser

In this episode of Ops Talk, Eric Linnenburger sits down with Westminster Fire Department leaders, Captain Samuel Pendleton and Battalion Chief Jake Lieser, to profile the fire captain position. With over two decades of experience each and careers that have evolved side by side, Sam and Jake bring unique perspectives on what separates the captain from the lieutenant, the leadership challenges of the role, and how captains bridge the gap between line personnel and the chief's office.

The conversation explores the expanded responsibilities captains carry—from facility and district management to staffing administration and training oversight—and the critical role they play in motivating other leaders without direct supervisory authority. Sam and Jake share honest lessons from major incidents, including the Marshall Fire, the Nolan's RV fire, and the Revive fertilizer fire, discussing the tactical awareness, decision-making under pressure, and trust required at this level of leadership.

They also get candid about mistakes made along the way, the power of communication, the importance of curiosity and self-awareness, and what it takes to prepare for the captain role. Whether you're a lieutenant preparing for promotion, a newly appointed captain, or a seasoned officer looking for fresh perspectives, this conversation offers practical insights into one of the most critical positions in the fire service.

Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction to Fire Leadership
01:08 - Paths to the Fire Service
06:51 - Understanding the Captain's Role
13:47 - Expectations and Responsibilities of a Captain
19:28 - The Importance of Discernment in Leadership
26:56 - Motivating and Leading Other Leaders
30:42 - Leading Up: The Role of Captains
33:35 - Operational Expectations: Captains vs. Lieutenants
39:07 - Real-World Experiences: Lessons from Major Incidents
50:06 - The Power of Communication in Leadership
01:00:21 - The Importance of Self-Awareness and Curiosity in Leadership
01:02:26 - Navigating the Transition from Lieutenant to Captain
01:06:30 - Building Relationships for Career Advancement
01:08:47 - Understanding the Role of a Captain
01:12:34 - The Critical Nature of the Captain Role
01:20:17 - Bridging the Gap: The Captain as a Connector

#FireService #FireCaptain #FireLeadership #CompanyOfficer #Firefighter #FireDepartment #OpsTalk #LeadershipDevelopment #firstresponders 

Key Topics:

-The evolution from lieutenant to captain and what changes operationally and administratively

-Facility management, district management, and staffing responsibilities of fire captains

-Leading peers without direct supervisory authority—influencing other lieutenants at your station

-The captain as a bridge between line personnel and the chief's office

-Tactical and operational expectations: higher incident command awareness and decision-making

-Real-world lessons from major incidents including the Marshall Fire and multi-alarm responses

-The power of words and communication as a leader—how influence changes with rank

-Curiosity and self-awareness as critical leadership skills

-Preparing for promotion: building relationships up and down the chain of command

-Administrative time management vs. crew engagement—balancing competing demands

-Acting as a battalion chief and what captains learn from stepping into that role

-The importance of predictability, consistency, and authenticity in leadership

-Servant leadership: serving the mission, the organization, and your people

-Common mistakes new captains make and how to avoid them
Why the captain role is one of the most critical positions in the fire service

Contact:
opstalk.wfd@gmail.com  

Eric Linnenburger
linkedin.com/in/eric-linnenburger
elinnenb@westminsterco.gov

Jake Lieser
Jlieser@westminsterco.gov

Samuel Pendleton
Spendlet@westminsterco.gov

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

If it is being built, if it is burning, if it is operating, if it is existing in this fire district as a captain, I expect you to be the expert on it. You are responsible for this corner of the city and the people that are operating within it.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

We had just finished Thanksgiving dinner. Units stand by for a building explosion. Turns out it was a vacant, large warehouse type structure that sold RVs. We got reports that there were people on the roof when it exploded. So as a BC, I'm thinking, I've got a building that exploded. I was thinking defensive, but now we've got people inside. I'm gonna have to put my firefighters in a building. I do not want to put my firefighters in. I went to a second and a third alarm just because of the size of the building. Had water supply issues. We had a total of 4647 fire apparatus on that scene at one point. So that was a big one.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Welcome to Ops Talk, Westminster Fire Department's operational training podcast, where we share ideas and knowledge through honest conversations, highlighting the people who do the work. I'm Eric Linenberger, Deputy Chief of Operations. While built as a resource for our members, we invite the Greater Fire Service and the community to be part of the conversation. What we share reflects our current approach under present conditions. Always follow your department's procedures and guidelines. Welcome to Ops Talk. I'm your host, Eric Linenberger. And today we're profiling the fire captain position with two Westminster Fire Department leaders and good friends of mine, Captain Samuel Pendleton and Battalion Chief Jake Leaser. We're going to dig into what separates the captain from the lieutenant, the unique challenges of the position, the role of second level of leadership within the organization, and what it takes to prepare for it. Whether you're a lieutenant preparing for captain, newly promoted, a seasoned captain captain looking for fresh perspectives, or just wondering what the heck these officers do all day, this conversation has something for you. But before we get started, if you're finding value in this content, please like, subscribe, comment, and share the show with others. It really does help get it to the people that can use it. Sam and Jake, welcome to the show. Thanks. Glad to be here. So I'd love for you guys to introduce yourselves, tell, tell our viewers a little bit about you, your path to the fire service, your path to uh the Westminster Fire Department. Maybe Sam, we could start with you. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Um, I've been in emergency services for the better part of my adult life. I started on a private ambulance answering 911 calls and then found my way into the fire service from there. I've been with Westminster Fire Department for 21 years now. Worked my way through the ranks as a firefighter or paramedic, a lieutenant, and currently serve as a captain. Most of that means that I've had enough time to uh make a lot of mistakes and uh learn from them. So that's what I'm gonna try to bring here today. I spent over a decade of of that time also teaching at the college level, teaching EMS, which gave me a real appreciation for how people learn and grow in high pressure environments. I have a real curiosity for learning, and that led me back to school myself. I'm uh working on wrapping up my master's in organizational psychology right now, and uh apparently I just don't know how to sit still. Um, at the heart of all of it for me, um I'm really passionate about leadership, what it looks like in the in the middle of a crisis, what it looks like at the firehouse at two o'clock in the afternoon, and how we build the kinds of teams and cultures that uh bring out the best of people when it matters most. Really, I've been incredibly fortunate to work with some amazing men and women along the way, and they really get most of the credit for the things that I've learned and been able to accomplish in my career. Really glad to be here and looking forward to chatting with you two guys. Ton of respect for you and uh really looking forward to this conversation. It should be a fun one.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

I'm glad you mentioned your role teaching EMS. You got a name drop in the last episode. We had Alec Shogun on, and he was talking about uh the conversation you had, just a uh a very simple conversation, but it really led to his career and his path into the fire service. And I it was just a good reminder of what every conversation we have out there and the relationships we build, how they can seem so insignificant at the time, but uh really have an impact. And you've had an impact on a lot of people within our organization and outside of our organization. And I'm I'm excited to have you here. You're you're a veteran captain and and you've experienced a lot. Jake, how about you? Yeah, good morning.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Um well, I've been uh in the fire service for the past uh 24 years and started out young. I was I was 18 years old and started with the birth of the fire department and worked there for a few years and then uh got hired by the city of Westminster 21 years ago. And it's it's no coincidence that I I think in Academy I I sat next to Samuel, paramedic, sat next to Samuel in uh in paramedic school. We took our first lieutenant test together, got promoted together. We've we've tested it for captain together. We so um two good friends. Our our careers have been very intertwined and we we've walked a good path together. So it's it's cool to be here with Sam again this morning. During my time with the city of Westminster, uh, you know, I really have found a passion for um skills instruction. Um I really have enjoyed uh teaching leadership, live fire instruction, and spent um prior up to the BC role, spent a large part of my career as a member of our Arson team. And so fire investigations was a big passion of mine. And um attended University of Northern Colorado uh for my BA and then my um MA in criminal justice. And a lot of that was tied to uh work with the Arson program and um evidence preservation at fire scenes and really systems thinking for firefighters, uh, getting firefighters to recognize that they're really at the tip of the spear, whether it's EMS or fire investigations or community safety. We're such a part of a bigger systems um that we're plugged into. Like Sam said, it's been a great journey. I've worked with some amazing people and uh watched our people conquer some some significant incidents with confidence and and very proud of that. So excited to be here this morning. And and Sam, here we are again, man. We we yeah, we're always together.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

It's been uh it's been a great, great 21 years uh walking it together. And along the way, you find a few people on your path that are not just co-workers, are not just friends, they're not just your brothers. More than that, they're your uh they're the people you lean on when the days are hard, when situations sticky and messy. You have those few people that you pick the phone up and call. And and Jake, you've always been my guy for that. And and I know those phone calls go both ways, and I really deeply appreciate that and the ability to uh be on this path with somebody that I know has my back in every way. So thanks for that. You got it, man. This this will be a fun conversation today. I'll try not to get into too many uh war stories that we don't want to tell.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Oh we're going there. We're going there. I appreciate you guys uh coming on and I was thinking about pulling this episode together and the perspective I was looking for perspective and different perspectives, and um, I didn't even think about the fact that you guys have been kind of side by side your whole career. It just felt natural to bring you on together. I I really didn't even consider that piece. Um, what I was thinking about when I pulled this together was you know, Samuel coming at it from that kind of veteran captain role, uh aspiring for the next level, uh, having a ton of experience in the position. Jake, uh new new to the battalion chief position, I had to pretty much pry you out of the captain role to even get you to go. So I kind of saw you as a super captain, you know, when you were there. And so we hope to bring some perspective here. We hope to bring that, you know, in the trenches right now, captain perspective. But then that uh, hey, now someone that's taking that next step. Um, how can that role support the organization as a whole? How can that captain support that battalion chief and the shift or the battalion? And uh, how do we get better together? And so I'm just really looking forward to the perspective uh perspectives that both of you guys bring. So let's just jump in. In our organization, uh we have a lieutenant is our first line of of leadership, first line company company officer is lieutenant, and then we have our station captain. They're still out there doing the the stuff. There's they're running a a crew, they're on the engine or the truck, they're they're out there operating the the same way a lieutenant does, but there are a lot of added responsibilities. I think there's some confusion around how this system works. And you know, you have some naive people that maybe think that uh the captain is just a glorified lieutenant just getting paid more. I I'd love to get into a little bit about the nuances, the differences between the captain and the lieutenant role.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, I I think one of the maybe one of the most surprising things to me from some of the same people that had that kind of naive perspective of, oh, you know, as a a captain, you just get paid more to do the lieutenant's job and and staffing, or the lieutenant's job and training, and those don't really involve much. Um but one of the surprising things to me was the difference in the level of questions you get as a as a captain, and even day one, like you your knowledge base from last day as a lieutenant to first day as a captain, your knowledge base doesn't change much, but the questions that you're getting change substantially. People call you for you know administrative stuff like, hey, how do I do this on the timesheet? How what's the code for this? Like just the level of questions that come at you, and they just because you're a captain, now they assume that you have that's the same level of information really as a battalion chief has, because that's their expectation that just overnight just changes. And the the questions that come from from crew members, from administrative people, from wherever, that's just like, well, you're the captain, you you know, you know this, right? And um often I found myself saying, you know, I I don't know, but I do know where to find out. And that's uh that that was one of the biggest kind of surprising changes for me. Because when I first became a captain, you know, I didn't I didn't understand or know the difference between the two. And that was one of the most um surprising things to me, just the the level of expertise that people assume you have because now you have two bugles instead of one. And it it doesn't happen overnight, but the expectation changes overnight. Jake, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

You know, I think I had an experience with a mentor that that really drove the point home for me. Um he took me over to a map of our districts of our city. And at the time I as a newly promoted captain had gone to our station five and uh he pointed to district five on the map and he said if it is being built, if it is burning, if it is operating, if it is existing in this fire district as a captain, I expect you to be the expert on it. You are responsible for this corner of the city and the people that are operating within it. And for me, that that was a a a big moment where where things aligned and it made me recognize that um as a captain, it's not just the first line supervis supervisory skills um with your people. It's the leadership, it's the ownership, it's the heightened level of professional awareness, um, it's how you represent the department in the community, it's your community engagement. There's so many things that go into the captain's responsibilities that sometimes it's hard to it's hard to put into words. If a citizen has a question, they're gonna expect the the captain of that station to know it. If there's a construction project going on and the crews need to be aware of it, the captain needs to be out there involved in the pre-planning and making the crews aware. If there's a special hazard, or on and on and on. So um for me, that was a pretty, you know, watershed moment in my career when I the weight of that hit me that, hey, if it's going on in this area of the city, I expect you to be the expert, Captain. Um, that one was was pretty profound. Chief, another one um to some perspective is uh someone once challenged me. They said, Hey, go out in the bay, take a look at the engine, and take a look at your facility, take a look at the crew, and consider all the pieces that have to come together in order to get this crew in front of Mrs. Smith on her EMS call or her emergency or whatever. Everything it takes to make the garage door go up, the apparatus run out the door, is their station safe, clean? Um, everything, all those pieces, all those relationships that it takes in order to run a successful station, that's your responsibility, Captain. And so those two perspectives of ownership really drove it home for me.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Until you're in it, you don't you don't really uh maybe recognize the the gravity of it. And it is your responsibility, but you're doing it in a way that it's not as clear-cut in the in the chain of command when it comes to dealing with even your lieutenants at your station, right? You've got you've got rank on them, but you don't have direct supervision over them. And it it's so it's it's a tricky, it's a tricky line to walk. And it really is, I think, when we start to show true leadership. We just we skipped ahead a little bit, but let's talk about just some of the the basic expectations of a captain. Samuel, what what are you responsible for and how is this how is your station laid out? Who are you overseeing the apparatus and um your general responsibilities, as well as your your extra duties that that you take on in our department?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, so it's uh I think Jake did a great job just now describing like looking at all the components that have to come together to get to Mrs. Smith. I think that's a great illustration. And everything from you need to make sure that there's a stock of toilet paper, you know, just super basic. Like if stage runs out of toilet paper, that's a huge problem. And that's falls on my plate as the captain. You know, the buck stops here. Kind of everything with that facility. If you know a a tool gets broken in the shop that needs to be replaced to be able to maintain the apparatus or the bay, the the floor drains in the bay, are they are they draining? Are they not draining? So just all the facility things that come with any facility, whether it's a firehouse or a city administrative building, the captain's kind of the the person most responsible to make sure all those things are functioning. Um towels, toiletries, supplies, all of that has to come together. So and that's just one little tiny piece over here in the corner that is easily missed until it's a big deal. Um, so that's that's part of the captain's um responsibility and role. And um really a lot of that gets delegated out as the captain. I'm not counting toilet paper rolls, making sure we have enough. I have someone else doing that, but it's my responsibility to make sure they're doing that. And that brings in, you know, I might not see that person regularly because that person at our station works on a different shift. Well, do they do I is the captain need to go through their officer to do that, or do we go directly with them and the officer's out of the loop? So there's a lot of those relational nuances that come into it in interacting with the two lieutenants that are on the other shifts and making sure they're aware of what their people are doing, that their people are getting credit for doing those things, um, and also being held accountable and responsible to take care of the things that have been assigned to them. So there's, you know, even the mundane toiletry stuff you have to deal with comes with some uh important relationship building. And when you talk about um trying to interact and supervise or lead really the uh the other two officers on at your station, like you mentioned, Chief, there's no formal like chain of command where they're under the captain, but those relationships are critical. And uh one thing that I've seen over the years is some shift wars could start to happen. And you know, little a little thing, somebody pulls a funny, funny trick on the other shift, and the other shift doesn't necessarily see it as funny, and you'll you'll hear it start bubbling in the background. Station three at my office sits down a hallway from the kitchen, and I shouldn't say this so everybody knows, but I can hear everything that's said in the kitchen. Sometimes you engage in it, sometimes you you you're like, I need a fresh cup of coffee, even though it's full to hear, because I got to get out there in the kitchen and be part of this conversation. And those relational management pieces, and sometimes it just takes walking through the kitchen, filling your cup of coffee, and it changes the conversation. Sometimes you have to go out and engage directly, and it can be about simple, simple things that are going on. Which drawer are we gonna keep the silverware in? We had a three-month rigmarole, and I tried to leave it and let the guys work it out. Never, never in the firehouse with that out. Tried to like in every set, we had a couple of guys switching the silverware back and forth, and and I thought it was humorous. There was some humor in it, it was funny, until it wasn't. And then I had to step in and be the adult in the room and and okay, this is going here, that's going there, it doesn't move. If you want to move it, you have to go through me, period. Like, and that's something at there has to be one person at the station who is able and capable of making those decisions, and that's that's the role of the captain. Even with so silly stuff like silverware, does it really matter? No, but does it start to matter when it starts affecting affecting the relationships in the firehouse? Yeah, that's a big deal. And that's where as a captain, you've got to be able to differentiate between uh this is a little silly and fun, I can let it go and stay out of it. It doesn't need my my political capital to be invested in this situation until you go, well, this is affecting morale, this is affecting relationships. You've got to have that discernment as a captain. Um, that as a lieutenant, you just don't have to have. You don't have to have that awareness level and and pay attention at that level to um what's happening. But for those who are aspiring to become captains, as a lieutenant, if you look at it from that vantage point, how is this affecting the station? How is this affecting the shifts? How is this affecting relationships, which is so important? That's a big deal. And one of the one of the uh pieces of of discernment or pieces of wisdom that you have to be able to identify as a captain, that's an important part of your skill set.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I've I've been thinking a lot about discernment and when I'm coaching people trying to move to that next level, I really think that that is one of the uh the key differences that makes that next level leader. And it seems so simple, but your ability to make that decision and sometimes taking no action is the action that you need to take. But you also need to be engaged, you are engaged all the time to make sure you're choosing those battles wisely. So I appreciate you bringing that up. But I do have to push back a little bit. Um, you talked a lot about toilet paper there, and something's changed. Something has changed in the firehouse since I left, but I'm going back to fire stations. I'm going into the restroom, and there are like bidets on the toilets. What the heck? You don't even have to buy toilet paper anymore. What's going on with our fire? Oh sorry, I just had to throw that out there.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

No, that's that's great because my I think my station and one of my guys in particular was um kind of a leader in bringing bidets to the fire service. Uh yeah, and the the conversation um happened initially is like, guys, we don't need bidets. If you want it at home, that's fine. I've got no problem with it, but we don't need this in the fire service.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, the first couple times it was like, that's hilarious, go away. And then um, as we talked about it, and uh I realized that there was a growing movement towards having bidets of station three. Just don't fight it. You're not gonna fight that way. No, you and when it's when it's 40 bucks and we have three toilets, I mean it's not that much money. And uh I gotta tell you now, Chief, I I have to eat my words. Uh I was wrong. I think the bidets are fantastic, and I now have one at home.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

So of course some of the things that change you that you never thought would change the fire service.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

It's like, okay, here we are. It's amazing. I'm amazed on the daily, like the kind of the work that we're doing. We're our work is getting so much more challenging every day. Um, we're navigating things out in the world, whether it be the acuity of the calls or the complexity of the calls. But man, in the firehouse, we we we're kind of a sensitive bunch, and it's it's it's and you are you're kind of you have to play parent a little bit in the firehouse, and it's amazing. It's what makes it great, brings a lot of humor, uh, a lot of predictability to it as well. But I think, you know, all jokes aside, like that leader that has the ability to roll with it, enjoy it because it is a whole heck of a lot of fun sitting around that kitchen table and bantering about this kind. This stuff. And it's healthy. It's so healthy. But as the leader, you do need to know when it's time to cut it off. When it is as simple as people moving the, you know, the silverware back and forth. I think at least we've gotten to a point in our organization where we're not moving the nozzles around on our rigs because that used to happen. And I think that still happens at some departments where it's like, yeah, we we like the the smooth bore with this tip on it, but the next shift likes the combination nozzle, and then you never know what you're going to get from day to day. So I'm okay with uh silverware going back and forth, but but it's amazing how those little things can become big things, and it and it really does take that officer to step in with that level of discernment. Jake, from your perspective, especially as a as a battalion chief, you know, coming from that role, uh, what are your thoughts on how that captain really impacts our organization and the way we do business?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

When we're looking to help somebody sort of conceptualize, taking that next step, think of there's about a half dozen dimensions that separate a lieutenant from a captain. And sometimes it's hard to distill out because the jobs do look a little bit similar. We've already talked about the role of the captain as a facility manager. So managing the fire station, it's capital improvement projects, it's long-term construction goals, or you know, short-term repairs and things that come up. So the captain is a facility manager. Also, the captain is a district manager, managing things like fire inspections, open houses and community events, pre-incident planning, having good relationships with community partners and business owners. So the captain is a facility manager, a district manager. Now, in our organization, the captains also take on the unique role of managing staffing for the shifts. And that's a whole separate conversation that we can have because how we staff our personnel, managing the overtime budget, staffing is a huge responsibility that our captains are heavily involved in. And much like moving the silverware, if you move personnel in a way that doesn't make sense, it can become a real uh distraction to the organization. And staffing is a huge responsibility for our captains. Um, our captains also have a large hand in training, and that is planning training content for the organization on an annual basis, on a long-term basis. Our captains are involved in career development, helping folks write out career development plans and adhere to them, managing JPRs and state certifications. And then, of course, the personnel management. Captains play a higher role, and Sam alluded to it a little bit. Maybe we don't have direct connection in the chain of command with the folks at our station, but we definitely have a responsibility for them. And so the captains are responsible for that. And I'm sure we'll get into it. Sort of the final dimension is the operational and tactical leadership, and we can set that aside for a little bit later. But just as I'm thinking, as Sam's describing uh his experience here with these things, I like to think that a captain really plays a role in handling motivational factors, things like station training, company pride, identifying the things about a response district or a unit that our firefighters, firefighters love company pride. They want to be proud of their unit. They want to have a cool logo and a common mission to rally around under the umbrella of the organization. So captains play a huge role in motivating others. But they also have to tackle those demotivators. You know, firefighter hits the door with their bag at 6.30 in the morning, and the station is filthy and the rig is disorganized and the building is falling apart and the attitudes are poor. Those are things that a captain is responsible for addressing. Those are right directly under his or her her purviews. Through all those things, captains are our motivators and they handle the demotivators, and they're just at right the right level of leadership in the department to make a big impact.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Aaron Powell Well said, we we've touched on that, the leading other leaders component. And and that's this is your first opportunity to do that. And and it is a challenge. Uh any any experiences you guys have had with that or tips and you know recommendations for how to motivate other leaders.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Well, I can tell you, Chief, as a paramedic, I started some pretty great shift wars. Um so if you want to get over there. We do a whole episode on that. But you're gonna turf this one to you, Sam. I'm gonna I'm gonna turf this one to you to start off.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Well, I think uh I think a little bit of that banter is super healthy in the fire service. And that a little bit of those, like I like it this way, he likes it that way. We go back and forth. But like you mentioned, Chief, the you you can't rearrange the nozzles and the setup because it uh impacts operations. When you drop that 705 structure fire in the morning, you need to know where your stuff's at and and where it's going to be, and that needs to be predictable. And so being bringing, I think to answer your question directly, one of the biggest things predictability to your crew, to your station, to the to the other leaders, the other lieutenants that are there, building predictability in we work in a chaotic environment, our jobs exist because chaos exists, but the parts that we can control, the parts that we can make predictable and have consistency bring a level of of peace, a level of security to the chaos, knowing that when we roll out the door, these things are all fixed, they're right, they're set up correctly so that we can go deal with the chaos. So bringing predictability to your station, your crew, the function, the operation is a huge responsibility of the captain. And to take that into the leadership side of it, um, being consistent as an individual, being consistent as a leader, not being the captain, and we've all worked for him, not being the captain or the chief, this is this is leadership in general, that shows up and everybody is waiting to see what mood you're in that day so they know how their day is gonna go. That person is miserable to work for. Nobody wants to work for that guy or that gal. When their mood sets the tone and you never know where it's gonna be, that is that is terrible leadership. And it's really hard to function under that. And that's part of the predictability that as a good captain or a good lieutenant or good chief, you have to bring forward with you. And even if you're having a crappy day, you need to show up for your people in a way that's consistent and predictable. And it doesn't mean being fake. One of one of the three things that is most important to me as a leader is being authentic. So by I'm having a crappy day, I'll tell my crew I'm having a crappy day, I'm having a tough day, but still show up with consistency and show up with predictability so they know how their day is going to go because they know who they're working for, not because I'm having a tough day. And we all have tough days. We all have those challenging days, and that human side of the leadership is is valid, it's okay, but you have to be able to see yourself well enough as a leader to know I'm struggling. I need to be honest with that. I need to lean on my people and know that they can lean on me and show up with that just that consistency and predictability, I think, is such a critical part of it.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

I completely agree. And I think that when we talk about leadership, especially at the captain level, you know, we've talked a fair amount about you know how we lead others that are maybe you know below us in the chain of command. I think very important is leading up as well. And how you support your battalion chief. Sometimes it's having those hard conversations with them and letting them know what they need. Uh Jake, from your perspective as a battalion chief, what are you looking for in that captain and how can they lead up?

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, well, I I think that um we've touched on previously here is that a big part of a captain's job is relationships. And so uh when you look at at a at a battalion, you know that your stations, by nature of their districts and their personalities, are gonna have their own unique leadership needs within them. When I came in as a new captain, uh I went to our station five, and that was a very senior station. Most of the folks assigned across all ranks at that station were later in their careers and had an eye on retirement. The leadership style that that crew needs is one that honors their experience and respects what they've seen and finds a way to share that with the rest of the organization in a way that makes members who were in the twilight of their career feel honored and respected by their department. My next assignment was at our fire station one, completely different leadership need there. Those are hard chargers, a lot of folks that are new in their career, ready to fight any fire anytime, kick down doors, repel off of buildings. That's our hard, our hard charging station. That needs a whole different leadership style than, say, a more senior house. And so as a BC, what I'm looking for in the captains is their ability to connect with their personnel, meet them where they're at, and find the best value that they have and get that out into the organization and out into their districts. If that's someone who has a lot of experience to share or someone who has a lot of experience to build, uh find them, meet them there, and let's get the rubber to the road.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Very good. Let's talk operations. You you touched on it earlier.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

It's everybody wants to talk operations. It's it's why we're here, right? But there's still some nuance, I think, that people need to understand within the difference between a captain and a lieutenant, even on the fire ground. Uh let's start with you, Jake. When you're commanding a fire or or a critical incident scene, how are you looking at that captain to lead that might be a little bit different than the lieutenant?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Well, a captain, we expect a captain to have a higher understanding of the incident command system. Uh captains fill in regularly as acting battalion chiefs. They are they they function as BCs in our system at times. So it's an immediate expectation of a captain that you have a higher understanding of incident critical factors, incident timing, and you're on the same sheet of music when it comes to how we operate as far as SOGs and things. I'm more liable as an IC to give a lieutenant a little bit of grace if they miss a piece of radio traffic or if their size up doesn't come through quite right. As a captain, it is an expectation that you are dialed as an incident manager, period. A great example of this, uh, Sam and I recently worked a fire where we sort of all had simultaneous arrival, the first U engine, the second U engine, the BC. And Sam and his crew had knocked out a punch list of fire ground items, not freelancing, but we've worked together well enough, and he has the recognition as a senior captain that boy, I look out the windshield and I see a water supply happening. He knows exactly like a goalie covering the net. What corner of the scene I don't have covered yet from an awareness standpoint. He positions himself there, and he's giving great real-time feedback into the command post about what we need to do to tip this critical incident the right direction. So captains have an expectation, a high level of tactical awareness and leadership on the fire ground. Um, was mentoring a uh just a rock star, an up-and-coming captain in our department. We were working a scene together, chief, that you were the IC on this fire. And we were sort of in an on-deck position. And um, I physically grabbed his air pack and I said, We're too close to the building. Let's go stand by the engine. Take this entire scene in. What do you see that looks different from 15 feet from the structure to 40 feet from the structure? Tell me what looks different. He was reading the smoke differently. He knew where the fire was headed next, and he knew where our people were. That's the difference between what we expect from a lieutenant and a captain on the fire ground.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Absolutely. And it's amazing. Sometimes it's taking that physical step back, and sometimes it's taking the mental step back. They both need to happen and expect a little bit more. When we've got an expanding incident that's going to multiple alarms, we're going to start to divide this thing up and manage our span of control. It's the captains we're looking to give a division to. It's the captains we're looking to to go off and function with a team and lead another team. Uh, I mentioned it probably on every episode. You know, our department size is that of a sh medium-sized fire department where we are relying so much on one another. We don't have, we've got good command support showing up, but we keep we don't have the command support to put in in roles all over the fire ground. And so we're really leaning on our people uh to do that. Company officers are expected a lot to take on those additional leadership roles on the fire ground and especially our captains. Sam, anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, I think um as a captain and knowing um knowing very well uh the expectation of a battalion chief and being able to come in with that mindset thinking um both having the the the latitude to give feedback and give information that like on that fire Jake mentioned, like where the BC rig was sitting, the Bravo side of the building was kind of blocked by engine one, the first arriving engine. And when I got around that Bravo side, he couldn't see what I was seeing, and so I gave some pretty direct feedback as to we need to do this on this side or or XYZ is going to happen. And as I was doing that, I'd already assigned my crew, hey, grab that hose line, let's go around this side, start putting water on it. Because I knew having having a a battalion, a battalion chief level thinking as a captain. Here's how I help my battalion chief, here's how I help this incident go well, here's how I keep things safe. And you like you said, chief, you know, up here making that mental shift. I was standing 15 feet from the building, but thinking about what can my battalion chief in the in the command post see? What can't he see? What information does he need? Having the ability to think that operationally and getting around to the Charlie side and giving good feedback because the front of that house looked completely different from the back of that house, and trying to give that good information to give the battalion chief a picture of what he needs to be mentally seeing that he can't physically see. So it's really it's it's great that our captains get to act in the battalion chief role uh regularly and and fill that role because it helps us when we're riding on a fire engine or a fire truck to be able to operate and function and support our battalion chief and keep our people safe at that level of um intellectual engagement, which is exactly why we're all trying to encourage our, especially our younger people, to take that next step.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Whether you you want formal promotion or not, learn the job above you to help you do be better at your job, right? And I know you guys have both had impactful events, whether you were in the uh the captain role or the the the battalion chief role. Samuel, I remember a fairly large event you had in the acting battalion chief role, and I know you've had more than that as well. You know, let's talk about some of your experiences in that role because we're not giving you a free pass. I mean, the the fire still burns the same, the people still need to be rescued, the resources need to be managed, right? You're the guy, you're the person in that role. Maybe talk about some of those big events that have kind of shaped you and helped you um become even a better captain because you know that other side.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, the the kind of the first real big one in my career as an acting VC was uh the Nolan's RV fire on Thanksgiving Day. I don't remember what year it was. It was it was back a ways, um 2017 or 18. Um, but we had just finished Thanksgiving dinner and uh we all units stand by for a building explosion. Turns out it was a vacant, large warehouse type structure that sold RVs. We got reports as I was responding to the incident that there were people on the roof when it exploded. So as a BC, I'm thinking, I've got a building that exploded. I was thinking defensive, but now we've got people inside. And I'm gonna have to put my firefighters in a building I do not want to put my firefighters in. I know it's vacant, but if we had people on the roof when it exploded, we gotta send people in. So there's all these all these factors you're going through, like cruise in harm's way. A dispatch came back and said it's apparently there were people on the roof working yesterday, nobody on the roof today. So I've got my coffee refill guy coming in. Um thank you, son. Yeah, yeah, pretty fancy, huh? A well-run crew around here. Totally nobody on the roof. We were able to go defensive, went to a second and a third alarm just because of the size of the building, had water supply issues, had um crews from a particular unnamed jurisdiction that wouldn't stay out of the building. So I got their chief to the command post and asked him to take his people and head home. We were good. I did it politically and tactfully, but I sent I sent a jurisdiction away that was putting themselves in harm's way and a risk I wasn't willing to take. So as an acting BC, I'm telling a district chief, get your guys to leave. That's hard to do. And it takes it takes guts. Because I was like, this guy's gonna call my chief. I'm never gonna have a job again. Like, how's this gonna go? But it was the right decision.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Stocking the toilet paper, back to that.

unknown 40:35

Yeah, that one.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Well, that that Nolan's RB fire was a big one. And we had um, I want to say we had a total of 4647 fire apparatus on that scene at one point of staging and all the rest. So that was a big one. The other, um, the other big one was the Marshall Fire. Chief Varney, our our D shift battalion chief, had not met his minimum vacation for the year because he works really hard, and so he was having to take a day off on I think it was December 30th, right before the year ended, he had to burn vacation day. And so I ended up in the seat, and that's the day the Marshall Fire came in. And that was uh an apocalyptic apocalyptic conflagration that just was unlike anything I ever thought I'd see in my career. Um, I've never been on an incident where I really in my gut felt like if we aren't real careful here, we're gonna we're gonna have some firefighters not going home today. That was tough. Yeah. It's tough to have that level of fear. I mean, most of the time we show up and we overwhelm the fire, and that fire was just whooping our butts. We got pushed back over and over and over. I was listening to some radio traffic from it the other day, and at one point I was communicating with the IC and I told him, We're pulling back, we're writing off 23 houses, and we're gonna make our stand at this street. And I I I hadn't remembered that I said that over the radio, but 23 houses who writes off 23 houses? But it's it was what we were facing, and uh just an incredible day. We talk about we don't like being heroes as firefighters, we're not heroes. Um sure, we're brave, whatever, but it's just our job. It's just what we do, and we normalize it. That day it wasn't normal. There was nothing normal about that day, and I I saw bravery in men and women fighting for their neighbors in ways that just humble me so deeply. And uh really made me be proud to be an American firefighter of the system we have in the North area and in the larger, broader span. I mean, that that fire wasn't even in the north area specifically, but I was able to call and ask our dispatch for several engines, and Chief, you came back down and you stood up a bunch of engines. It was the start of our surge program. Like it changed our organization to this day, that fire did, and uh really made me value outside jurisdictions, even beyond our normal um CAD-to-cad group, and uh just just really shifted my mindset through that experience as to both how how incidents can be overwhelming, but also just the incredible support of our neighboring fire departments and getting to go and support them and knowing they would come and support us in those situations. Just incredible to step back and look at the systems, the people, the competency, the bravery. Just just humbling to be part of such an amazing group of men and women across the country, really. So just uh that one really blew my mind. Still gets me in the gut when I talk about it. You know, that was a that was a big day, and um I could tell lots of detailed stories. About some of the heroic things I saw that day. But yeah. Change changes you and gives you experience as a captain in the BC role that just helps you shift your thinking and see things better. And I could I could spend a whole podcast talking about all the mistakes I made on that fire, too. There were a lot of lessons learned that day.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

There were a lot of lessons, but it was a remarkable day. It was something that we'd never trained for. I mean, you really can't. There are aspects of it. You can train for the tactics, you can train some strategy. Um, but when you put all that together with the winds that were happening and and the fact that um, you know, we were working together, we had an auto-aid agreement with our regional departments, but this fire was just far enough away from us that you know we we hadn't worked closely with some of these other fire departments. We did have one area of our city that was in evacuation, but really this was going out and and helping other communities. And it really was a testament to to how solid we are as an area, but also just as a fire service. I know this would happen everywhere. I have to I remember back on that day, and I was here at home. You know, I live about an hour away, and I'm watching the news, and my wife and I are out for a walk, and it's it's dry. It was just unseasonably dry, and it was so windy that day. And then I start seeing the news stories about you know this fire that's going. And my wife is like, Man, do you think you need to go down there? I'm like, No, it's just a grass fire, it'll it'll be okay. Fifteen minutes later, it had escalated to the point that it did. And I got in the car and I was on the way, and we were we were standing up units, and Chief Varney, who was on vacation that day, who you mentioned, he was also on the way in. So we're talking to each other. We get there about the same time. We're trying to mobilize in the city, still protect our own city, keep some resources there. And I still have a bone to pick with him because he we're talking and they're requesting another command, another BC up there, and a couple more engines. You know, they're they're trying to put together a strike team. And so we're looking at each other and we're like, yeah, we got this. And so I go out, I'm getting my gear because he'd already kind of started running the city. It was his shift day, right? I mean, it was it was B shift. I was the C shift battalion chief. So I'm I'm grabbing my gear, I'm like, heck yeah, I got this, and and I'm gonna go up there. I'm I found another vehicle. Uh and all I see is the tail lights cruising out. What he meant was when he said, Do you got this? He meant, do you have the city? And I'm like, Are you kidding me, dude? So I digress and I have no animosity. No, it was a remarkable day, and I know you you have stories galore on that, and I can only imagine how that shaped you as an individual, but as a captain, and and and how much, you know, of course there were mistakes made and you learn so much, but that's how you that's how you get better. And it had to instill a lot of confidence in you as well when you are being asked to go over and sit in that seat. We create task books, we give as much training as we can, but you really do have to get in the trenches and do the work. And we do have that support around us to make sure that you're not gonna fail when you're doing it. Uh, thank you for sharing that. Those those were only a couple. I know you've been on some significant events. You've been on significant events as a captain, but those are just a couple big ones that you've been on as an acting battalion chief. And uh just just remarkable. Jake, how about you? Uh either your time as a captain or or maybe when you started to act as a battalion chief and how that shaped you.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah, you know, one fire that comes to mind um it's pretty early as I was pursuing the captain role. We'd had some organizational transition, and it was sort of serving in an acting captain capacity, um, just due to injuries on the shift. So it was a lieutenant on our truck three, but also performing some captain duties and then would eventually move to station five. And so this ended up being a significant fire for us from an arson standpoint as well. It was in our uh in our district three and late night fire, you know, nighttime fires that get out ahead of you, they could be dangerous. And so this was an intentionally set fire, an intruder set a fire in the basement of a home. And we arrive on scene to a well-involved house fire. The family is out and accounted for, um, but their beloved family dog is missing. And the whole neighborhood, the the neighbors are out there, this house is rocking, we got hose lines flowing, and the whole neighborhood's watching. They're they're pointing to the master bedroom window, and they say, We know our dog, our beloved dog is in that room. Can can you guys go get? And we're a truck crew, right? We're going. Like the ladders are already off the truck. We're going through the window to get that dog. And um had a veteran firefighter with us, one of the most respected um firefighters in the Denver area, uh, legend Tony DeTiro um was with me. And so we're gonna go make a VEIS attempt and get this dog, and there's nothing that's gonna stop us. And so uh we ladder the, we ladder the first story roof, we get up there, we take the window, and he's Tony's going in the window, and it is a it is a complete no-go situation. It is billowing, black, turbulent, hot smoke from outside the house. I can feel the heat on my mask. And I'll never forget the feeling of having to grab a veteran firefighter's air pack and pull him back out the window. And kind of like you, Sam, I thought, boy, after this one, I might have to skip town because um this is going to be an unpopular one. So, from a captain's perspective, though, the the level of tactical awareness and situational awareness and the ability to read conditions and make difficult decisions on a scene, sometimes unpopular decisions on a scene, you have to have that wherewithal and you have to have the trust in your battalion chief and your fellow officers that they're going to support your decision on the fire ground. And so in hindsight, it was the right decision. The crews were able to get in and get the dog uh via another means. The dog wasn't where we were targeting the search, so it kind of worked out in the end. We actually ended up using hair from the dog to match the suspect's clothes. He had the dog's hair on him and it tied him to that fire, oddly enough. Now, escalating this to the captain as a district manager in the fallout of the fire, you know, we roll the hose, we pack up the trucks, we drive away, the ongoing community meetings because of the unsettled feeling in this neighborhood of an arson fire that damn near killed a family, the questions of are we safe? Can the police protect us? Can the fire department keep us safe from arson? Those relationships that went on for months afterward, all the way to the courtroom, but when the person was sentenced and members of our crew were there to testify. And so as a lieutenant, you might just be there in that snapshot of time, but the captain, you own that thing for months and months. You own that feeling of safety in the community. Another one that comes to mind, my first big event as an acting BC was the revive uh fertilizer fire. Um I'll never forget the feeling of uh it's midnight, it's 4th of July weekend, roll out of station two, and we can see the mushroom cloud over Sam's district there in District Three. And I got on the radio and I called, hey, dispatch, send me a second alarm. And I had no idea what was going to happen from there on out. It felt good to say it on the radio, but I'd never done it before. So the takeaway there is just that we, you know, big incident. Um it's an explosion. We've got uh a hazmat runoff situation. We're trying to protect exposures, and just the feeling of trust that you develop as an incident commander. So dividing a large incident up into uh big divisions, assigning three or four or five rigs to each division, a hazmat branch, all of those things, man, the level of trust that you develop for our people, you can give them, and Sam knows this from the the uh the Nolan's fire. You give one of our officers or a uh a captain, a chief officer, a a piece of a large incident, and man, they're gonna conquer it. They're gonna do great for you. So that stepping off into trust of, hey, here you go. Here's your slice of the incident. Don't burn down any more buildings, check back in with me when you're done. Man, it's it's tremendous. It is it is tremendous. So those are two that that really come to mind, Chief.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah, and anytime there's fertilizer in the company name. And aren't they always happening like that? It is like you mentioned, middle of the night. Holiday. Sam's fire was Thanksgiving. I remember that one. I remember sitting at home eating Thanksgiving dinner, seeing that happen, thinking, oh man, I knew that was I knew that was you in there, Sam. And I think I can't remember if I was a captain still at that time or if I was a BC, but um, feeling for you. And at that time, we didn't have the automatic aid agreements that we have in place right now where you're gonna get the automatic command support. You you really were on your own, and and you didn't know when you were calling additional alarms if you're actually gonna get the full additional alarm or not. Now we've got things really dialed in. Challenges, galore. Sam, you you alluded to it. You've learned some things over the years. What are some what are some things that you've learned that it could be on the operational side or the administrative side that that you feel like you need to share with people?

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Two things pop popped to mind immediately, Chief. One is curiosity, the other is the power of your words. And the power of words I really learned as a new lieutenant, but have carried it with me as a captain and will carry it with me forward as I I work up, hopefully to promote to battalion chief in the future. As a new lieutenant, I walked into the kitchen table, you know, the banter's going, the gaffas, the I can't believe this. How the hell could this happen? Like, I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on? They explained it to me. And it was so ridiculous. I don't even remember what the particular topic was, but it was so offbeat, so like, so far out there. I was like, this is a joke, right? Like, there's no way this is happening. This is a joke. And so I just went, why does that surprise you guys? Of course we're doing that. Yeah, duh, that's happening. Get used to it. That's what I said. 100% sarcastic. Filled my coffee and left. New lieutenant. Huge mistake. Um, about two weeks later, I got a call from Chief Hull. And he said, I am chasing down a rumor and you are the source.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Oh man, they're texting.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

And I said, You'll never guess what Captain Hendell did. I said, uh, okay, Chief, what's up? And he explained it to me that I had said such and such. Well, that conversation has gone in one ear and out the other for me. It didn't connect. And I said, Chief, I would never do that. You know me well enough. That didn't happen. He goes, Well, that's that's what I heard. Hung up the phone about five minutes later, the light bulb came on, and I went, Oh crap, I did say that. I said exactly that completely sarcastically, but I said that. So I had to call it back and I said, Chief, no one was as surprised as I. That conversation. And uh he ripped me a new one and I have it coming. I look back at that learning opportunity, and he he told me straight up, he said, Samuel, I promoted you because I expected you not to do things like this. And that one hurt. That one hurt and it stuck. And so I guess one thing I'd really want to give to people is realize that when you not just when you become a lieutenant, but when you start to want to become a lieutenant, if you're in the process right now, if you're in the acting role right now, when you're sitting in that seat, and when you're not, people are listening and hearing your words differently. Sarcasm is not out of bounds. You can use sarcasm, follow it up with I'm being sarcastic, this is stupid. Pull your heads out. Like, come on. But you have to be clear with your communication, and your words have power, and it it just exponentially goes up each rung of the ladder in the organizational chart you go up. Your words carry power, power they didn't have yesterday, and you have to be thinking about what you're saying, how you're delivering it. You have to be very self-aware of how your communication is coming across. So that's one of one of the first things that comes to mind. The other one I mentioned was curiosity. Um, this would have helped me in this situation to get curious first. Anytime I approach a situation, the one thing that is always safe to assume is that I don't have all the information. And if you start there and you start curious and you ask questions, and then you ask questions about your questions, almost always the outcome is much better than if you just ready fire aim. Um, and my and I'm a ready fire aim guy. I'm an action-oriented guy. I like getting after it, I like making decisions when information is incomplete. And sometimes in the fire service, we have to. There's no question about that. You have to have that skill set. But administratively and in the firehouse, that is not the time for that operation. You need to ready, aim, aim, aim. Okay, let's fire. You really have to adjust your approach to things. When you have discretionary time, use the discretionary time, get curious, ask questions, get all the information, and it will it will make your life and the people working for you and your bosses, it'll make everybody's life better and smoother if you really bring a lot of curiosity with you to the problems that you face in the fire service.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah, very good. You're talking about thinking about your words, and I I I I scream it all the time, but the the influence that our company officers have, you don't realize it until it's too late sometimes, right? That direct influence is guilty it's a gift. It's a gift, and and we have to we have to take care of it. Very good. Thank you, Sam. Uh, what about you, Jake? You've never Jake's never made any mistakes in in his life. I've been watching his whole career. I haven't seen one yet.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Anything you've learned from that people just need to know? Hang on, let me get the book out. I wrote them all down here. No, you know, I I think if you're a lieutenant that's looking to take the step into captain, those lieutenants are, man, they are highly motivated. They're usually involved in special teams and projects. Like a lot of times the person who's looking to go from lieutenant to captain is a rock star. But sometimes they know just enough to be frustrated. And a lot of times you're at that phase in your career where maybe you've been a lieutenant for five or six, seven years. You've you've developed some mastery of the lieutenant skill set. And so you know just enough to be frustrated with things about the organization that maybe you don't have the complete picture of or aren't involved in. And so that that was me. When I was trying to take the step from lieutenant to captain, you can pick a hot topic, whatever it is in your organization, whether it's your shift schedule, uniform shorts, your EMS model, bidets in the station, all of these ridiculous things in the fire service that usually find a way to work themselves out. It's common for a lieutenant at that juncture in their career to latch on to one of those. And man, your buddies, they want to hand you the banner and slap you on the butt and send you right into the chief's office to set things right. And I fell victim to that. I thought as a new, as a cocky truck company lieutenant, that I had all the answers on how we needed to run our fire department. And I'm gonna go right up to City Hall and I'm gonna tell it like it is. And man, I stepped into a captain test and I got sent right back to my truck lieutenant's spot with some wounds. And so my advice to anybody in that position would be if you're feeling frustrated, if you're feeling like, hey, I'm ready to take this next step in my department, but man, I got these things hanging over my this black cloud, this topic or whatever, take some time to get to know. Visit with your fire chief, visit with your ops chief. Start building those relationships early in your career. For us, it was the 4896 work schedule was a hot topic. I didn't understand all of what that meant. I knew what it meant to a lieutenant. I knew what it meant to our firefighters. I didn't know what that meant to a fire chief in terms of managing payroll and relationships with City Hall and auto aid relationships. There were dimensions about making that switch that I did not understand. So when you're ready to jump from lieutenant to captain, make sure you have a wide worldview of the problems you're headed out to conquer. Like I said, if it's not, if it's not the schedule, it's a type three wild land engine. I don't know. We could go on and on about all the all the problems we're gonna solve as a young man.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Right. Thank you guys for your honesty there. I mean, that's yeah, that's some wisdom, and it's so true. We've got things coming one after another, and it's and it's as nobody here is saying to sit back and let it happen to you. We don't want apathy. We want people to be engaged and and take action. But I think that's where true leadership starts to come in, is when you're able to take that breath, take the information in, see the different perspectives, and then make your approach accordingly. Let's start to wrap up a little bit, but I we started to talk about this was kind of advice to that maybe that lieutenant wanting to take the next step, but I think it applies to all levels taking the next step. Uh but let's just let's talk to that lieutenant seeking a promotion to captain. What is your advice for preparing for that promotion? They probably should have started years ago. What specific things are going to help them not only be successful in the testing process, but more importantly in the role?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

I think the the relationships you build along the way, and Jake just alluded to this. Sit down and have a conversation. Not with any objective, not with any agenda. Get to know your ops chief, get to know your fire chief. Get hear and listen again, that curiosity, listen to their perspectives, listen to their vision for the organization. And don't run it through a filter as you're listening as to, you know, that that pet project that's hanging like a black cloud over your head, like Jake alluded to. Just listen. Listen to understand. And then do that with your firefighters. Do that with your lieutenants, you the peers. As we look at promotions and moving up our career, a lot of times our our focus is up the ladder, up, up the chain. Like, what does the chief want? What does the deputy chief want? Where are they taking organization? Where's the vision? I think that's easy to understand why, as a lieutenant, you need to have that to take the next step. I think one place that we often miss is those peer relationships. So I'm a lieutenant and I want to move to captain. So the people that I'm going to be one step above of and interacting with, what do they think? How do I understand them? How do I connect with them and build relationships that will carry me forward and help me help them? And help me help my chiefs, help me help my my battalion chief. Like building those relationships and those that communication and that community around you and listening to understand, I think is so incredibly important for building that larger vantage point, that larger viewpoint of the organization. What's actually happening? What's important to the people who are going to be working for and with and supervising? I mean, it's got to go all directions there. So I think that that would be a big piece of my advice is have those conversations. Take the time to really genuinely listen and understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:33

Jake, what do you think um surprises new captains? Are there are there certain skill or knowledge gaps?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

You know, I I think the um the administrative management, whether it's taking on staffing or the training administration or your FaceTime in the community with schools and business owners, religious organizations, all the stakeholders that a captain is going to be interacting with, the ability to manage your time effectively. And I'll admit, managing at our fire station one, it was a busy firehouse, balancing your administrative responsibilities with the needs of the crew. You're gonna have a company that wants to get out there, they want to throw ladders, they want to pull hose, they want to work on their engineer taskbook, they have a laundry list of things that they are excited about. And so you have to balance meeting your obligations with also ensuring that your people get what they need from their company officer. And so sometimes for firefighters, it's difficult to work for a captain because a captain has a lot more on their plate than a lieutenant does. And I've and I've heard I've heard firefighters say, hey, I'd prefer to work, you know, for a captain versus a lieutenant or vice versa for that, for that reason. And so have an administrative, um, have some administrative chops, be able to clearly define your management style and come into that job with a written plan of how you're going to effectively manage your. Time. And also know when it's time to just turn the dang computer off and walk away and go be with your crew. And I can tell you that as a as a BC, um, if if we're a little bit late on a on an administrative deadline, I can handle that. If your company shows up on the fire ground and they are a well-oiled machine, I can give some grace when it comes to administrative duties. So just be ready to walk that balance. And I think to add to what uh Captain Pendleton was saying about you know what we're looking for when lieutenants take that step. I can tell you as a BC, like we are watching. We are watching. When your company arrives on the training ground, when you show up to a city function, when we see you out in public, we're watching. We're paying attention to, Lieutenant, the cleanliness of your apparatus, the attitude and appearance of your personnel, the way that you're engaging in the public. If you're ready to take that step from lieutenant to captain, that's also a step from lieutenant to captain to acting BC. So you better be darn sure you're ready to represent the organization in a way that we would expect of a chief officer. I'll tell new captains when they're stepping into the acting BC role, as an incident commander, you will be the first voice that a firefighter hears on the radio when they call a Mayday. You will be representing the city in that acting battalion chief role as an ambassador to our neighboring organizations. You better have your act together. So if you're a lieutenant out there thinking about taking that step into captain, um, get your company tight, show up ready to go, and you'll show us that you're ready for that job.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

Amen. Appreciate that, guys. Last question why do you think the why do you think the captain role is so important to our organization and to the fire service? Kick us off, Jake.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

Well, um, as a captain, you have the opportunity to be a motivator. And all of us got into this job in the spirit of service, right? You talk every lineup, every new recruit. Why are you here? It's because I want to help people. And so as a captain, the way you run your show, the way you run your district and your station, you can have tremendous impact on helping your employees and the community at large. You can be a bright spot in your in your city or your district. Captain is just it's one of the best jobs in the fire service. And um, I remember handing over the keys to station one when I took that battalion chief promotion. And man, it feels like handing over the keys to a childhood home. If you're uh if you're a captain or aspiring captain, man, take that high level of ownership and know that you're gonna have tremendous impact.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:42

Yeah, you did have to be pride away. And I can really I don't know. It's probably at least once a day where I think back to my time and wonder how I got to where I did, because I probably made some mistakes along the way. That captain, captain gig was something special, and it was a heck of a lot of work, but just a such a great role and such a cool place to be. Samuel, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

Why is it so critical? Can I redirect for just a moment? Yeah, let's do it. From your position as a deputy chief and your vantage point as you look back to that time you just alluded to it as a captain. What do you look back and say, I wish I'd known? And what would you say as a deputy chief? What would you say, this is what I need from my captains? Like, give us that vantage point because I think there's a lot of value there. Well, first off, I asked the questions here.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Well, sorry, not sorry. No, it's a great question, and I think it's easy to to look back because we always look back, uh, we only think of the positive stuff, right? We think of how how how great times were, and but it was for the most part. I I guess I look back on on being a captain, and I probably what I tell myself now is to to enjoy it a little bit more. Um and I was never one that was necessarily just looking to the next level because I I really did. I got into that captain spot and I and I thought that's where I wanted to stay, but then timing happened, circumstances happened. I always prepared myself for the next position because I always wanted to be able to make the choice when the time came, but I really thought I'd stay in that captain job forever. So I probably enjoy it a little bit more. I'd probably really dig in, and I think I was an engaged captain with my crew, but I think maybe I would have just had a little bit more fun with it and just really gotten down to that crew level, um done some more training, done some more just crew building dynamic type of stuff. Um, and then I think the other thing, having maybe a little bit more confidence in myself now, I probably would have uh led up a little bit more. I probably would have coached up and and let my battalion chief know a little bit more what I needed or what we needed. I've I've I've got the the position and the confidence to say that it's a lot easier said than done, right? But um I think there were some times I probably held back and I probably should have said something. Oh does that answer your question for that first piece? Man, that's yeah, that's great. I appreciate it. Because then stepping into that battalion chief role, I expect that out of my captains. I need them to come let me know what's going on. I don't want them to sugarcoat anything. And so I think I would have let up a little bit more. Jake, you're saying something.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

It's like covering that missing side of the fire ground. It's the same, the same philosophy. Um one of the things I really enjoy about being a BC is um got two just all-star captains. Well, three really, if you count our acting captain, but some all-star captains on the shift now. And when you hand a job to somebody and you watch them do it better than the way you did, or you watch them build on what you did, man, it it really it's it's it it brings a lot of humility to your leadership. And so, like I've watched what our what our Captain Zavala has done at Fire Station One with his construction knowledge and taking the needs of that aging facility the same way that uh Sam and I worked together on this recent fire, man. When you have a teammate that can cover that that missing corner of the field for you, it's pretty dang special. So yeah, that's well said, Chief. Yeah, those captains, man, they they they are the the right and left hand for the battalion chief.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

And it is hard to hand those keys over. I experienced it as well. As I've said before, I got to battalion chief and I thought that was the greatest job on earth. This is it. And and I really did. I mean, I believed it. It's pretty good. It was amazing. But I knew that I had people behind me that were going to take over the shift and and make it better than I could. And and that you're sitting right here, Jake. You've done a fantastic job taking taking that shift and making it better than it was when I was there. And that's what we should all be striving for, right? Setting people up for that. So part two of that question, though, Samuel. What are what am I looking for from the the deputy chief perspective? Man, I need people to have courage and the curiosity, like you mentioned. I need them to be professional and I and and and and to go out and make good decisions and do the right things because it's the right thing to do. I think that um there's a lot of talk right now about you know, servant leadership. You ask someone what kind of leader they want to be. Well, I'm gonna be a servant leader. Well, what's that mean to you? We'll ask people that sometimes in an interview, even like, well, what's it mean to be a servant leader? Well, I'm gonna take care of my crew. You know, it's like, no, being a servant leader is bigger than just taking care of your crew. Being a servant leader is serving the mission, serving your organization, and serving your crew. And sometimes serving the mission and serving your organization means that you're gonna have to do tell your crew some things that they maybe don't like or agree with. So you have to be that strong leader. So, yes, I want you to be a servant leader, but I want you to remember that being a servant leader is more than just serving yourself and serving your crew. You should actually come last in that, right? I need you to serve the mission, I need you to serve the organization, and I need to take you to take care of our greatest resource, which is our people that we care about, and we want to go home safe every day. Awesome. Thanks, Chief.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

Thanks for letting me uh hijack the conversation. That was not part of the plan, Samuel. You're welcome. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

But you're gonna have to repeat your question for me because now I I got so much great information that you're gonna have to do. Any final thoughts? Uh, you know, why is this captain position so critical and why do we need to to continue to grow and build this position and make it better and you know, produce captains that are better than we were?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

Yeah, I think um from my perspective, is I've um sat in the captain role for 11 years now, had a lot of time to evaluate where I've been effective and where I've failed. I really think I I see that captain role as the bridge. We have a we have a number of middle managers, if you will, throughout our organization as far as rank that could be considered middle management. Um, but I I really see the captain role as a bridge between the line and the chiefs. And if you're doing your job well, those two groups stay connected. And that takes a lot of communication, it takes a lot of curiosity, it takes that that courage that you were talking about just now, Chief, to not sugarcoat things, but also be professional and be tactful and be able to take a message that sounds like crap from your crews and filter it out without taking away from the message and delivering it not sugarcoated but professionally and tactfully with the Chief's group, and vice versa. Um to be able to lead well, you do have to be a strong leader. And even like from a staffing standpoint, I really kind of wanted to stay away from any real detail of the staffing stuff, but mandatory overtime is the worst phone call you'll make as a captain, other than a line of duty death. It's off. I hate it. But it's necessary and it supports, like you were talking about, supports the mission. We have to have butts and seats, we have to have fire apparatus staffed. And so I'm that bridge between we don't have enough people, and you gotta come to work today. And I can do it with compassion, I can do it with tact, I can do it with kindness, but it has to be firm leadership when I make those phone calls. And that role of the captain to be able to bridge together, not to set them on opposing sides, but just the bridge that brings it together and makes it a cohesive unit, I think is just the most critical way to view the role of the captain because it really does connect um so many parts of the organization. And if that communication breaks down, if I don't do a faithful job of being consistent, being approachable, being authentic and and and bringing accountability both up the chain and down the chain, then our organization's gonna suffer. And our people across the board are gonna suffer. I've got to do a good job of being that bridge that translates and helps bring understanding. Really, that that picture of a bridge, in my mind, is a really great analogy for what's the critical piece that the captain breeze.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:43

Well said. But then I think the the other piece of that that you didn't talk about when it comes to the staffing specifically and when it comes to mandatory overtime is what did you and I do in the background, you know, in order to try to make an impact on some of these things, right? We were we worked on policies in the background. Um and and that's some of that leadership that not everybody sees. It's like what you were talking about, Jake, that you can't just go kick down the door and tell the chief how things need to be, but there are ways to make things better, right? And so you and I, Samuel, and with the BCs, we work together on these policies, not to make things perfect, because we know things are far from perfect with staffing. It's always going to be the biggest challenge we have in our organization, but hopefully we make some some positive impact. And and you let me know honestly how people are feeling out there, which really does matter. And so I just appreciate that work that you guys have done. We didn't even get to get into the amount of special teams and projects just like that one that you guys are both a part of. And and I know that um we would all probably agree how important that has been in forming our own leadership is getting involved. I'm just trying to encourage our young people to get involved. That's a lot of how this podcast was even created, is that I want our next generation to see the different opportunities that are out there, whether it be the be our special teams you can get involved with right now, or opportunities for promotion and formal leadership roles. Would have loved to go there, but man, I've held you guys a long time. It's been a great, great conversation. Thank you both. Thank you for your leadership, what you bring to our organization. I'll put our our information in the show notes. I'm sure you guys would be okay with people reaching out if they had questions or needs. As always, just appreciate everyone joining us. And if you have future show ideas or feedback, please email opstock.wfd at gmail.com. We'll see y'all next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Thanks, fellas. Take care.