Healing Trauma, Restoring Connection & The Future of MDMA Therapy with Jonathan Robinson

Healing Trauma, Restoring Connection & The Future of MDMA Therapy with Jonathan Robinson

In this powerful and deeply thought-provoking episode, host Lida Fatemi sits down with bestselling author, psychotherapist, and psychedelic therapy pioneer Jonathan Robinson for an open conversation about trauma, healing, psychedelics, and the transformative potential of MDMA-assisted therapy.

Jonathan shares his deeply personal story of growing up in a highly dysfunctional household, battling suicidal depression as a teenager, and searching for healing through meditation, spirituality, and psychedelic exploration. His path ultimately led him to study MDMA therapy academically in the 1980s — long before it became part of mainstream conversation — and to spend decades helping individuals and couples heal trauma, anxiety, depression, and relational disconnection.

Together, Lida and Jonathan explore:

• The difference between recreational drug use and intentional therapeutic healing
• How MDMA therapy works for PTSD, trauma, anxiety, and couples therapy
• Why integration and accountability are essential for lasting transformation
• The mental health crisis affecting teens, families, veterans, and society at large
• The future of FDA-approved MDMA-assisted psychotherapy
• How psychedelics can create profound healing when used responsibly and ethically
• The importance of skilled facilitation, safe containers, and trauma-informed care

Jonathan also leads listeners through a short guided heart-centered meditation and shares simple yet powerful motivational techniques that can help people create lasting behavioral change.

This episode is an honest, compassionate, and nuanced conversation about the future of mental health care, human connection, and the healing potential available when science, spirituality, and therapeutic support come together.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• Jonathan’s journey from suicidal depression to becoming a leader in psychedelic-assisted therapy
• Interviewing spiritual teachers including Mother Teresa and Dalai Lama
• Why MDMA therapy is showing groundbreaking results for PTSD treatment
• How trauma impacts families, children, couples, and communities
• The role of preparation, intention, and integration in psychedelic healing
• The difference between MDMA and psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD, and ayahuasca
• Couples therapy breakthroughs using MDMA-assisted sessions
• Healing generational trauma and restoring emotional safety
• The ethics and responsibilities of psychedelic facilitation
• Hope for the future of trauma treatment and emotional healing

Memorable Quotes

“We kind of live in a small mental box, and there’s a whole other world outside of our framework.”

“MDMA allows people to revisit trauma while still feeling peaceful, connected, and safe.”

“Integration is where transformation actually happens.”

“There are ways that we can get through trauma — and that is incredibly hopeful.”

Disclaimer

This podcast episode is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical or psychiatric advice. Psychedelic-assisted therapies should only be explored under the guidance of qualified professionals and within legal and ethical frameworks.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We have the pleasure of having Jonathan here with us today. Please tell us about yourself. I'm so excited to hear about you and and what whatever you want to share.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Well, I have a unique background, but I got into all weird things early because I had a very dysfunctional family. So by the time I was 12, I was reading self-help books. I became a certified hypnotist at age 13. I was meditating every day. By the time I was 16, I was into LSD and MDMA and uh other drugs. And I was really trying to heal myself to get to a place of inner peace. And that got me interviewing a hundred spiritual leaders, ranging from the late Mother Teresa to the Dalai Lama. And I wrote books about that. And the books got popular. I got an Oprah a bunch of times. And I kind of had a hidden thing in that I got my master's degree on doing MDMA therapy when it was still legal, also known as ecstasy or MOLLE. Now that the FDA is going to approve it for a medically prescribed drug sometime in 2024, I lead trainings on helping therapists do this type of therapy, which is phenomenally effective. And that's why the FDA is going to be uh approving it sometime this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Fascinating! I didn't know the whole background. And I have a 15-year-old right now, and we do, we see a lot of teens escapism using different drugs. I mean, everybody's looking for healing, I think, especially if you do come from dysfunctional families for whatever various reasons, of course. There is a, hey, I I don't want to be a part of this, but I'm really curious to hear your um, you know, your firsthand experience in that, in whatever you want to share, of course. What was it that you were trying to escape from, or was it that you needed more love? And of course, that's you know, always always a big piece of it. There's acceptance and feeling that we we want to be we want to belong, we want to exist, we want to be safe. And I'm really curious to hear your story about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Sure. I I was a suicidally depressed teenager. I think of suicide a lot. I was a tough upbringing. You know, brother and sister are both in and out of mental hospitals. They didn't go the way of healing, so they've had a real hard time. And when I came across, well, first when I came across other psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, I saw that we kind of live in a small mental box and that there's a whole other world outside of my little framework. And I experienced deep levels of peace and love. And I decided I would dedicate my life to finding the best methods for getting back there. Well, when I came across MDMA, I saw that I could kind of unwind my neuroses and unwind the trauma and anxiety I had felt. And in fact, uh studies are now showing that MDMA is the most effective medicine by far for dealing with PTSD. And um it's also like a Swiss Army knife. It's very good in couples therapy and in helping with depression and anxiety. So I discovered that, decided to do research on it at school. And since then, that was 1984, I've led about 800 journeys from people from 40 different countries. And when COVID hit, I started to do these journeys over Zoom, which surprised everybody that works even better over Zoom. After finding a certain inner peace in myself, I've tried to use these medicines to help other people find a sense of inner peace and also help couples restore the love in their relationship. And it works really well for that as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

That's beautiful. And it's so necessary during the pandemic. I think it unearthed a lot of dysfunction that we have in society and in families, and we dismantled communities and with isolation, and so much of that came through. In fact, I've been in contact with the child abuse specialist of New Mexico, Dr. Schl Strickler, and she was reporting to me that there has been a 12-fold increase in child torture cases. Not only in New Mexico, but this was like right after the isolation, you know, was lifted and kids went back to school. That's what was noted because then they could go to the doctor and actually be seen. And she got in touch with her friends across the United States to see if this is just New Mexico boo because we're so underserved, or is it elsewhere too, where it was everywhere? It was everywhere. And so this is a study that's being done uh through an IRB approved research. And obviously, we need innovative methods to move forward, move through the trauma that these children have withstood. And you know, what's happening with the parents, what's happening with the caretakers and the adults and the couples, right? That's really at the source of all of this. So your work is just incredible, incredible, and such service to society at large.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

We need it's kind of uh exploding now. I teach these courses on how to do this type of therapy, and um we're getting hundreds of therapists, doctors, coaches taking the course. Uh, it's only an eight-week training, but when it does become medically prescribed, I want to make sure that people know how to do this therapy because everything can be abused, and there's a good way to do this therapy in a in a not so good way. And so I've been I'm getting like 100 emails a day at this point. It's it's almost ridiculous because people who've tried this are getting such dramatic results that the word is spreading pretty quick. And the FDA has never in its history taken a legal drug and made it medically prescribed, never once. So this will be a new thing that has never happened before. And the reason is it took you know 40 years and 50 million dollars of studies to show that it's just incredibly safe and effective. So it's an exciting time to be in this space.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

It's wonderful. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Well, uh if people want to know about the training, that's a MDMA training.net.net.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

We'll make sure that it's in the show notes for um those interested. So do you know, and I'm curious, you know, because you know, the research obviously shows that there needs to be um work done before, work done during and after. It's not that, you know, the medicine is it, it's a tool to get us to where we want to be. And that's you know, in in my own coaching when I'm using microdosing with different medicines or macrodosing, um, I hold people very accountable to their commitment to that self-discovery, to their their personal evolution. Otherwise, it just doesn't pan out to work as well, right? It may momentarily with still assignment with all of them, momentarily you feel good, and then the next it's not as good because you're not invested, you actually don't have practices around it, or you're not integrating, or whatnot. I'm very curious to hear what you do in your program and how you lead people in this. What happens, you know, if you have a pre-work, post-work, you know, what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah. Um, I have a protocol that worked that I kind of tinkered with over 40 years and I find works really well now. I do a one-hour session, usually over Zoom, finding out what their issues are, what success looks like, if there's any contraindications for taking the medicine, psychotic breaks, or if there are uncertain medicines that won't integrate with the MDMA. That takes about an hour. Then we set a date for five hours. And as I said, most of the time it's now over Zoom, which surprised everyone, including me. I only do MDMA therapy over Zoom. The other psychedelics are way too unpredictable. But of maybe 400 sessions I'd done on Zoom, not a single person has had a problem. So it's very consistent, and we spend up to five hours together and we dive deep into their therapeutic issues. I am a psychotherapist, so I use a lot of different techniques that I teach in the training, and everything works better when somebody's on MDMA. It's kind of like you can do two or three years of therapy in one afternoon, which is very moving both for me and the client. Then about a week later, uh, we do an integration session. And one thing I've noticed is that in a lot of psychedelic therapy, there's not enough emphasis on integration. And so I put a big emphasis on integration. I develop a method that keeps people motivated over years. It only takes three minutes a day, and not a day, three minutes a week to do. And yet, if people use this method, they will stay very motivated to make changes over time. I used to be a motivational speaker at like Google and Microsoft, and I honed a method that is really effective. And people can read about in Ecstasy as Medicine, uh, the book I wrote. But when people use this method, they're able to be consistent with changing behavior in a way that they saw on their journey would would help their life.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Wow, that's incredible. What a tool. What a tool. And so let's uh let's talk about your book, because I know that's that's something that is. When did you finish it? When did you publish it?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Uh it's only been out a couple months.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

A couple months, congratulations. Writing books is like giving birth is really is. Um, and so yeah, tell us about the book um and the whole name and where people can find it, and we'll make sure it's all in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Um the book is called Ecstasy as Medicine, and the subtitle is How MDMA Therapy Can Help You Overcome Trauma, Anxiety, and Depression and Feel More Love. And I've been very actually a little surprised at the response. People are really loving this book. It's gotten a lot of Amazon reviews and they're all five stars, which surprised me. Uh, I wrote it quickly, so you know, but it's very informative. I go a lot into how to do this therapy and the techniques and the results that I've gotten. I go a little bit into the history of MDMA, which is interesting, and what the future is likely to be. When it does get FDA approval, the clinics will be very expensive, the legal clinics. So I'm kind of part of what could be called the underground movement, where uh we can charge like one fifteenth the amount. So I'm I'm hoping to help millions of people by training thousands of therapists and such and coaches on how to do this therapy because it really is a breakthrough medicine. You know, a lot of people can't afford to do five years of therapy where they don't have the time. But uh, if you do this right, it really is uh very effective. And I also want to get this motivational method out because a lot of people know what to do, but they don't do what they know. You know, 40% of Americans are obese. There's no mystery here. You eat less or exercise more, but in order to do that, you really have to be consistent over months. And most people don't have a system for staying motivated or a system for integrating their deepest insights into their daily life. And I think the the system I created is very help helpful in that way.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And you know, sometimes what I've seen as well is those tools are even more powerful, right? Because you know, you take the medicine once, but it the the the tool that you're sharing, it's a life skill that you can utilize forever and to teach your kids about it. You know, I'm all about that. You know, that pass it on, pass on the good stuff. We pass on the bad stuff way easily. Um, but passing on the good stuff and and really implementing. I always talk about this too. If you talk about it, let's do it, let's walk it. Knowledge is a stepping stone, but you gotta walk the talk, you can't just talk about it. Um and I hold myself accountable to that. So I'm super excited to read your book and and learn your skills. This is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that with the world. It's very necessary right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Well, um, I'm actually rather selfish. I wanted to heal myself. So that's how I got on this mission of what are the easiest and most effective psychological and spiritual growth techniques. And when I get a chance to talk to like, you know, Deepak Chopra or Dalai Lama or whoever it is, I try to steal their best techniques and then bring it out to a larger audience, preferably for free whenever possible. I do offer a lot of stuff for free on my websites. I don't need them any, but um the most people are suffering from psychological challenges that are not that hard to solve if they have the right technology, the right skill, the right medicine, the right type of therapy. And I hate to see people suffer unnecessarily.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, absolutely. Do you mind just out of curiosity, give us a sample? Give us a uh, you know, one a sample of one of the tools that you use.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Sure. Well, I could do a very simple two-minute guided meditation for finding inner peace, and then I'll I'll talk about one of the motivational methods that I use as well. So if you have two minutes and you aren't driving or something, you can just close your eyes for a moment. And and if you can put your hand over the middle of your chest, that's good, and just feel the center of your chest. Think of a person or a child or a pet that you have great affection for, and remember a special time with this being, a time where you felt really connected. And see if you can feel your heart connection with this being. If it helps you can imagine hugging them or holding them in a way that helps you to feel even more care and connection. And think of how grateful you are to have this being in your life. And wherever you feel a sense of peace or care, relax, relaxation, just savor that feeling, those sensations, like you're savoring a deep fresh brush of air. And feel grateful for any peace or calmness or care that you're feeling by giving a thank you to the universe. And notice if you feel a bit more peaceful and open now, then as you can just come back to the room and slowly begin to open your eyes. I notice that you feel a little bit more peaceful and open now. And that's like 90 seconds, that doesn't take very long. And with practice, people can get better. One of the things I like about MDMA is that it leads to a state of love and peace. And with practice, I can help people get back to that place without the medicine, like with training wheels, that you learn how to get back there. I used to meditate two hours a day to get to a place of deep peace and love. Now it only takes me about 20 to 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Powerful. Powerful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Well, and here's another simple method, Lita, uh motivational method. Let's say you think after taking this medicine that it would be good to meditate 10 minutes a day, or it would be good to connect with a friend that you haven't connected with for a while. You can make a contract with yourself and with me that you'll meditate 10 minutes a day and you'll contact that friend by the end of the week. And if you don't, you have to throw away or rip up a dollar. Now, I've had people who are snorting $20,000 of cocaine a month stop to avoid ripping up a dollar. It's a funny technique, but it it does work for people because people will do anything not to rip up money or throw it away. So that's an example. There's a lot of different methods I provide in the book and in the training, but they're mostly ones that people haven't heard of because I got them from people, gurus in the Himalayas or people who are billionaires who don't want to share that technique normally. So my goal is to really get these really effective techniques out there. And uh and some of them are really kind of fun.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. It reminds me of atomic habits. It's I think it's James Clear. That's right. And he talks about creating obstacle for something that you don't want to be able to reach, a habit you're trying to get rid of, and creating ease when you're trying to bring in a new habit and implementation into life. It's all about that, right? What serves us versus what doesn't? Yeah, really cool. Thank you for that. I'm gonna I'm gonna use those. Um tell us more. I would love to know more about uh you, about your work. Do you do cohorts? Is it something you know with your facilitation crew? Like is it something that is rolling um as far as enrollment goes? Um, how does that all of that work?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Sure. Um well I uh have this online course, it's eight weeks, and there's an application process. So you don't have to be licensed, but we do want people to have some experience working with people. And in the course, it's really interesting. People do sessions with each other, you know, uh they practice very specific skills. I talked a lot about how to use this medicine's MDMA, especially for like couples work or spiritual acceleration, um, how to overcome trauma. There's a lot of different tech innovative techniques I like to teach, but people practice with each other. You know, last course had a couple hundred people from 40 different countries. So it's it's definitely expanding. And when you get FD approval, there's going to be a lot of people wanting this therapy, but they don't want to pay $15,000 for it. So I've I've asked the people taking this that they charge under $1,000 at first, which is if you can solve your psychological challenge in under a thousand bucks, you're doing great. And also uh to help veterans, because a lot of veterans suffer from trauma. So they do some sessions for veterans for free, uh, because there's a bunch of veterans killing themselves every day due to trauma. And until MDMA therapy came along, there really wasn't an effective way for helping these people. One of the things I like about this, though, and you might find this, is that you surround yourself with a community of people who are like-minded. And there's a lot of issues to go over, like how to avoid legal problems, how to uh get pure medicine. 40% of the medicine of MDMA in the United States is not pure. And therefore, people have problems because it's often mixed with methamphetamine or bath salts. So we have a whole thing about how to get pure medicine uh without legal risk. So there's a lot to know. When I was studying this back in 1984, I asked myself, how are people going to abuse this drug? Because you can't even get addicted to it. If you take it a lot, it starts to not have any effect. But the thought that people would use it in all-night dance parties never occurred to me. And that's how it was used in raves. And it's fun. I've been to a couple of raves. But the people who have not taken it therapeutically, when they take it therapeutically, they go, oh my God, I didn't know that this drug could do this. Uh so it's a whole new ball game when you actually take it with a person who can guide you in helpful ways.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Oh, it's a whole different, it's a whole different realm, right? When there's a guide and your intention is to gain healing and to live a better life, whatever that looks like for you. It's a whole different thing. You know, there's Dr. Dr. Lehman um in New Mexico, I'm in New Mexico at University of New Mexico. He got approval for an MDMA study for postpartum moms, six months out, um, with addiction and PTSD. This is a study that's been done before. And I think they should be in the middle of it now. It's sort of in the summer. Um but you know, he always says, you know, if it was just the medicine, then the rave culture, there wouldn't be any problem, right? But it's like, you know, oh, I'm you know, I I have no issues, no depression, no No, but it's really, it really is the uh what I call the container of how we approach using these really as medicine. These are powerful tools that we can use um to get that extra, like I I want to, but you gotta want to do it. You gotta want to do the work because it's gonna unravel certain things too, and and not necessarily with MDMA, I would say, but still a cyban and LSD specifically is and ayahuasca come to mind or DMT as well, where you really get super connected with your trauma. You can if you're going in there to do shadow work and MDMA too, but yeah, I'm I'm curious to hear about your experience of holding, you know, all these sessions. What do you see? So the individuals do visit their trauma, but it's it's an observation. MDMA is is a very loving molecule, and so I'm curious to hear your experience with your clients.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Well, um although I do lead other psychedelic sessions, I only do MDMA over Zoom because psychedelics can bring up trauma. And if they're on like LSD or psilocybin, it can be challenging for sure. On MDMA, because it reduces blood flow to the amygdala part of the brain, people can go into their trauma and still be very peaceful and relaxed. So it doesn't, people don't have bad trips. I've never, I've never had of 800 sessions I've led, nobody has had a bad trip. Whereas with LSD or psilocybin, maybe 20% of clients have very challenging trips. So it's a really different class of Medicine, although psilocybin is great for um helping people with depression, same thing with ketamine. So I think those medicines have usefulness, but I wouldn't want they're not so much therapeutic agents. You just kind of give them the drug and you help people be safe, but you can't really talk to people and do therapy on psilocybin or LSD because they're not very interactive.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I lead sessions as well, but with MDMA, I have the least experience of leading. I have my own experiences with it. But that's what's very curious about it, that during the MDMA session, you're more engaged. You can be more engaged.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Absolutely. In fact, my parents wanted to know why I was so enthusiastic about this. So I said, Well, the only way to know is if you try it. And to my surprise, my conservative parents did said, well, we'd like to try it. So I gave them, you know, the medicine. I told them how to take a set and setting. Well, a year later, I asked them if they'd taken it. And they said, Yeah, they had. And I said, Well, what happened? And they said, Well, nothing happened. The medicine didn't have any effect. I was kind of surprised by this. So I said, Well, what'd you end up doing that night? And they said, Well, we waited like 10 or 15 minutes, nothing happened. Well, it ends up it takes about 45 minutes for it to take effect. So after they thought the medicine wasn't effective, they said that they sat on the couch and they talked about how much they loved each other and how wonderful their lives were. And they said it ended up being the best night of our 50-year marriage. The only disappointment was the drug never took effect. I'm laughing the whole time. So MDMA just makes you feel like you're the most clear-headed, most open, and most peaceful you've ever been in your life. It doesn't so much feel like a drug. And from that place, you can go into some of the hard issues, and people are open. They're curious. They don't have their defenses. And it's like uh amazing accelerator. It often takes a year or two to get total trust and empathy and connection in a therapeutic context normally. With MDMA, it takes about 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Incredible. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

It's really fun. You're a pretty impatient person. So it was hard for me to like week after week, I'm trying to get trust with a client, feel guilty taking their money. We haven't really gotten to the issue. With MDMA, you get full trust report in 10 minutes, and then you have four and a half hours to like almost do brain surgery because you're getting deep into their psyche.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yes. And the resistance is gone.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

And you're able to truly get into the subconscious and and the conscious and do the work. And it's it's so cool. It's so cool. It reminds me of um like a Nintendo game, and there's the mushroom that you catch and it shoots you forward when you want to use it. That's what keeps coming up for me. With psychedelics in general, depending on what you want to get gain out of them, this is what they do. But I mean, in couples therapy, it's incredible. Like, you know, if we had parents, right, who are arguing or having issues or they can't communicate what their needs are to each other because of their past traumas, and they're bringing all of that to this relationship, and they have four kids, right? And then the kids are all involved in that. So, you know, bringing those two individuals together and having a session with them.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah, it's pretty miraculous. I um I wrote a book called Communication Miracles for Couples many years ago, and Oprah had it had me on her show and she really loved it. So it became a big bestseller. So I ended up doing a lot of couples therapy, but I found it really slow and frustrating and um just you know, it could take two years before a couple could work out something. And when I started to give uh do couples therapy on MDMA, it felt like I was doing three years, four years of therapy in one afternoon. Because when couples are not defensive and they love each other and they feel connected and they trust each other, which the drug does temporarily, then it's really easy to work out problems. Trying to work out problems when you don't trust your mate and you don't feel connected to them is almost impossible. It's it's uh I'll be doing a course later this year just on couples therapy and MDMA, and it's an exciting area. It's actually how MDMA first became popular in the 70s. It was popularized by therapists doing couples therapy with it because they were getting amazing results. And then, of course, it got it very popular and got into the the recreational use. But it was originally seen as a breakthrough couples therapy drug.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Incredible. That's so cool. That's so cool. And and here we are going back to it, right? Yeah, we lose our way and then and then we had to find find the way back, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah, it took 50 years, but now we have the studies proving that's effective.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I'm so grateful to be honest with you, to be living in this very moment um to be able to talk about this openly. It took me, myself, years. You know, I've been uh doing this work for about a decade now. It took me a decade to be able to actually come out and and talk about it. I, you know, talked about um some of these results, the MDMA study at the FDA level and the Hawkins study at the MBC, just educating the public. I think the public needs to know that psychedelics are um extremely helpful, but it's also like playing with fire. So you have to be with trusted people, you have to seek experts in the field um who have shown some work um that is not coming in from an egotistical space, or you go to these retreats and um and they're just taking your thousands of dollars and the results are you're in not a good state when you come back because there's no integration. And so really doing your research in knowing what path you what step to take towards that, um, towards using it as a therapeutic agent. So yeah, awesome. Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

There's a lot to learn in that way. Of course, I mentioned a lot in the book, but in the course I lead, there's there's like 40 hours of information, and then everybody in the class is sharing information with each other. So, like any science, you can do it on a superficial level, but if you want to create real miracles, it helps to know the the nuance and the subtleties of what makes us both safe, effective, and and really uh a breakthrough medicine.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

That's incredible. Yeah, yeah. And how did you start your your company organization? Was it just like, you know, I'm I'm interested in the story.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Well, you know, once I did my once the government made it illegal in 1985, um, I had clients who I'd done the study with come back to me and they would refer friends. And they so I was just occasionally doing it as an underground thing. I was a psychotherapist, but just through referrals, I wasn't trying to market myself because it was illegal. But in the last couple of years, uh, I think people have become aware that something's going on in this space. As I said, I'm getting 10 people a day asking me to do this. I have a big referral list, I you know, people I train, etc. But you're right that it's competing with people who are just in it for the money or don't do proper integration. So I kind of see that's a race between the people who are just trying to make a buck and the people who are real healers who want to uh use this in a way that can heal people a lot quicker than we've ever had the chance to heal people before. Depression is 500% more than it was 50 years ago. Teens are having a very hard time, and I want to give people hope that in a world where there's a lot of technology, one of the technologies is how to heal people better, and that this is coming on board and is going to change things.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

That makes my heart happy that this is we're having this conversation. Um, how young do you go? Like, you know. Yeah. Right, like you have a suicidal teen. That's a that's a tough area, and I have people that reach out to me about that, and it is tough. And there's not much guidance or people talking about it openly because people are afraid. You know, you and I aren't, but majority are.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It depends on the on the specifics. I have worked with it with people as young as 15 with a parent in the room, and obviously with their permission. That's a little bit unusual, but uh I haven't ever had any problems and it's gone extremely well. But you do need a situation if somebody's under 18 to definitely have a parent permission, and in fact, hopefully there at the time that the session is happening as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Do you ever do it with a family? Like have mom, dad, and kid involved.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

That's really rare. I actually have done it twice, and it was miraculous, but so hard to get you know four people all willing to do that. Yeah. But in the two times I did do that, it was uh completely miraculous. Everybody was on the same page, they worked out everything. It was um very moving. Everybody was in tears by the end, including me.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

I love that so much. Hey, I I I currently practice end-of-life medicine, palliative and hospice medicine. And oftentimes what I see is the family conflict surrounding a dying patient. And so I always think about at a time that I can use plant medicine or non-plant medicine, just these therapies to bring if the family together and really allow them to heal with their dying loved one. How beautiful is that, you know, would that be? I haven't, you know, obviously experienced that yet, but I think it would be a really cool thing to be a part of.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

And they do have some promising studies showing that people can overcome their end-of-life issues and anxiety with a good dose of psilocybin or LSD. And I certainly hope that that becomes part of hospice care in general, and and hopefully that will happen soon.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, I hope so I hope so too. I'm I'm in that realm trying to move things along because I'm practicing it and I see the need for it so much. Um yeah, no, great work, great work. And um, yeah, so you said you have a couple of websites. Tell us where is the best way to get in touch with you, um, if people are interested in the work you do.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Sure. Um, well, I have a website, xtcasmedicine.com. And if people put in their email address, they get a document on 10 ways to avoid bad psychedelic trips and 12 questions to ask that always lead to instant intimacy with anyone. And that's uh that people really love that document because it really can bond any relationship very quickly. And there's a lot of information about the book and guides and my next training. There's a discount code for that. If people want to learn about the training, they can go to mdma training.net. And the next training's uh March 2nd. Um, and they can learn everything they want about that, or they can contact me through either of those websites as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jonathan. It was so nice talking with you and exploring what you do and just this realm. It's fun to talk about it openly and know that, you know, there are people out there that really care about the healing potential of of these therapeutics and and really believe in the healing potential of the human being, regardless of what kind of trauma we've withstood, you know, because there's a lot of trauma happening every day, you know, across the globe. Knowing that there are ways that we can get through it is so hopeful.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, and as healers, to embrace a new technology like this is both fun and very emotionally satisfying. I love my work and it's really wonderful to witness the miracle of human healing in a in a quick way that is relatively easy.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Beautiful. And on that note, thank you so much for being here and maybe we'll have you on another time.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Okay, well, thank you, Lita. Thanks for the great questions.