United Irvine Church
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United Irvine Church
United Irvine Podcast - Ep5: Morag & Shirley
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In this episode, Rev Neil chats with Morag & Shirley about their involvement in UICS
Welcome to the United Irvine Podcast, and I am delighted to have with me Mora Cooper and Shirley Bothwell. Welcome. Now you'll be experts at this, I'm sure. You know, done this plenty of times before.
SPEAKER_01No, never never. A new experience.
SPEAKER_02A new experience, brand new. It's great to have you. And we're reflecting on the past, we're thinking about the present and looking towards the future in terms of United Irvine. And tell us about the story, the story of Booter Hill Relief Church, when it started and and how you came to be involved, Moorag, and then you came and joined in, Shirley. Tell us.
SPEAKER_01Going back a long time, we're going back to 1976. What was his name again? The Reverend Robert Leslie. Up to the new schemes of Butcher Hill was just really developing at that point. So we came in June 1976, and on September 1976, the foundation stone was laid, and that was dedicated by the moderator of the Presbytery at that time, and that was Thomas Jarve. So to begin with, we had like the two services, one stolen West Road, and it started off um in Curland's school and with services there. So that was how it started back then.
SPEAKER_02So that was fifty years ago.
SPEAKER_01Fifty years ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's just whizzed in.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely whizzed in, yes. Uh-huh. So Butcher Hill was new at that time. I think it I think it celebrated its 50th year last year. Um so houses were just developing. So uh Housing Estate was just developing. So there's a lot of young families moving into the area. I think it was known as Napi Valley, to be honest. Uh-huh. So there were so many young families. So again, back then, um all those years ago, that was a blending of two congregations. We had um a lot of members that transferred from West Road. Again, some didn't, but a lot of transferred from West Road, and then you had the new people moving into the area who came from various different churches. So that was a blending into one congregation.
SPEAKER_02And the West Road Sanctuary was where the Emmanuel Christian Centre is now and uh British Legion. That's right. Just next to where Muir Relief is now.
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh-huh. So so that at that time um there was lots of families joining the church. Um Dad very much uh would not turn MD away, so we had so many baptisms, in fact we maybe we have six at a time, um and which then resulted in we had a huge Sunday school. Um we had the beginners department, the primary department, and the senior department in the Bible class. And by the time I was leading the primary department in the eighties, and that's primary one, primary two, and primary three, we had 75 children in that one section.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so things were booming really.
SPEAKER_01Things were booming.
SPEAKER_02And where did Shirley come into this?
SPEAKER_03Well, I I was one of the new families. Um my husband was a a key worker, they called it, so he got a chance of a house up in Beertre Hill. So I had um one child, I was just expecting another one. I came from Colwinning, God's own country. And I was um a member of the Congregational Church in Colwinning, and I started there when I was about twelve or thirteen because my friends were going. My father had taken us to the Mansfield, he was a member, staunch member of the Mansfield Church. He'd gone there and so had his parents. And um I don't have many memories of the Mansfield Church, I just remember it was a beautiful big church and it was very well decked out. I'd never been in a church before, obviously. I think I was about five when I started, but then the transformation when I went to the congregation, I asked my father if I could change because my friends were going, so went there. And the minister at the time was Reverend Charlie Hill, and he was an ex-commando, he was a lovely wee guy, very small, very small build. I I can't imagine him a commando, but he was. And um he took me under his wing. As soon as I got in, he put me into the Sunday school when I was 14. Helped, I had to help with the infants in the Sunday school. I had a baby sister at the time, a toddler sister. So, and I never left, and I just learned so much there. But then sadly, I had to I had to move, I had to move. I couldn't I couldn't stay any longer, it wasn't practical. So I came up to the relief, and to be honest, I didn't like it. It was totally different from the Wii church that I was in. It was a Wii family church, everybody knew everybody. I realised it was the same at the relief, everybody knew everybody, but I didn't know anybody and they didn't know me, and I did not like it, but I went because I wanted to I wanted a faith journey. So um I decided that I had to I had to embrace it and I had to join clubs and things, and that would be the way that I would learn. So we had a prolific badminton club, and somebody asked me if I wanted to join, and I joined that, and it was a lifeline for me because it got me knowing people, could put names to faces, befriended them all, a really happy bunch, great badminton players by the way, and um that got me in. But then I wanted to deepen my faith, that was helping me with relationships, but I wanted to deepen my faith, I wanted to be part of it, and fortunately Robbie Hamilton at the time, he was the minister at the time, he was looking for volunteer readers. Now I was not um I was not a public speaker at all, but I just get this, I just felt as if I had got a message to see you volunteer for that, volunteer for the reading. The first one I did was the day that Princess Diana had died. That was my very first reading, so I was shaken. It's a wonder you didn't hear my knees knocking in Greenwood. And I did it and I thought, well, I can only get better, I can only get better, and I loved doing readings. I loved doing readings, I I read them to I researched them, I read them and tried to do my best, and I felt that was the start. And then from there, no one folk just tapped you in the shoulder and asked you, would you join the board? And you think, oh no, I can't do that. I don't have I don't have the knowledge, the wisdom, I don't know anything about finances or structure of buildings and things, but you learn, you learn, and I was happy to be a board member, and then it followed on from there. Um I was in the ways and means, I think it was in the board, which was to try and get church money, get the mutt money for church. And to be frank, I get fed up with coffee mornings. I get fed up standing at the door Sunday morning selling coffee morning tickets. So I went to Robbie and I said, How do you fancy a pantomime? And he said, Oh yes, I do. There's one stipulation. I want to no, he said, Oh yes, I do. And he said, There's one stipulation, I want to be at one of the ugly sisters. It was it was called Tales of Urella, Cinderella. And so it went it started, managed to get people in the hall, told them what was going on, and surprisingly, they were all up for it. I only had one refusal. One woman I thought should be great, she was a beautiful singer, she didn't want to do it, but everybody else came on board, and that was when I learned you know, you don't need to be a great organiser, you just need to get people together. And the pantomime was a rip roaring success.
SPEAKER_01Very good, channel.
SPEAKER_03Rip roaring success. Um we had men dressed up as the spice girls, a church officer with fish and eight tights. It was absolutely wonderful. I couldn't believe how everybody in the church, and I was just so proud, so proud of everybody in the church coming together. People said it was better than the gaity. And it was, it was. And these were just people, they're sitting in the church with their stern Church of Scotland faces on on a Sunday, and then you see them, you know, dressed up as ugly sisters and fashionette tights and dancing. But one of the guys just couldn't do the couldn't do his uh his uh there was a a wee um a wee programme, a wee scene set at the banker. One of them couldn't do his scenes for laughing, he just giggled all the way through it, and then they shut the curtains and that was it. So that was a great blending, it was a great feeling of just relationships working together, it was great. And then not long after that, I was asked to be an elder by Eld uh by Robbie just before he left, and that was a wonderful experience. Again, you think oh no, I don't know if I can be an elder, but I'm pretty sure everybody thinks like that. Um but you just grow into it, you grow into it and you grow in faith, and it was one of the one of the best days of my life, the day I became an elder and I was ordained.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. I love that. But your journey of faith, you clearly were brought up in the in the church family, uh with your parents and with your dad being minister, and and then he would how many years was he uh minister at relief?
SPEAKER_01In total, he was five years as a minister. He went into ministry late in life. So um yes, went to church. We s stayed uh moved from Glasgow when I was seven, we went to Presswick, so I went to the Sunday school at um Presswick South Church. Um in fact one of your members uh in Fullerton was my Sunday school teacher in Presswick South.
SPEAKER_02Is that Sheila McQuaker, was it? Sheila McKay.
SPEAKER_01Um then my dad studied uh for the ministry, so uh this was his first ministry, an early ministry. Um so yes, I've always been involved in church life and um I was a Sunday school teacher, um I helped him Presswick South as a teenager. I was a Sunday school teacher here, even helped the boys' brigade. Um I've always been I think that every job in the church that you can you can think of.
SPEAKER_02You've been so faithful and fruitful and and in time you became an elder and and session clerk.
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh history was made back in 1993. Uh we had the first female elders uh um ordained in uh relief church uh and then uh round about 2000 uh 2001, so round about that anyway, I became the session clerk. So uh that I was the clerk to the board for many years beforehand um and then session clerk for too long to remember now, but 20 odd years.
SPEAKER_03So it was always the go-to person.
SPEAKER_01If ever you needed an answer to a question, more than but it was also the person people hated me coming up to them because they always knew I was going to ask them to do something. You know, yes, so but that that was a strange thing as well because it's as if obviously everything's planned. Um Dad died. Dad Dad worked very closely with Father Feeney, um is at Oxcent John Ogavies, which is just adjacent to our uh church at Bootry Hill. Um Dad died, Father Feeney died, and then Ron Swanson, the Baptist minister, all died. So all the people who laid the foundations for faith on Booter Hill. Um that was one of the one of the high days and one of the low days when it was the 2nd of August in 81. Um the BBC Scotland came to do a recording of the church service up the road. Um and then one part of that was to um show faith but also to show how closeness to we were with working with the chapel closed. Yeah, so so that was a very everything went well, very good service, but unfortunately after that service dad collapsed and died that day. So we still have the BBC recording and we still have a lovely letter from the BBC Radio Scotland. Um so but again that was just to show we we did work really well with the chapel next door. The same way we do down at West Road with St Mary's. We have um uh lots of the joint services, Christmas Carol services, and the use of each other's halls and the each equipment tables if we needed extra tables and things for fairs. Um so yeah, so that was a a blessing that do you mixed emotions.
SPEAKER_02Of course, my goodness. And and it means that uh you know this journey of of churches together in Irvine is er it's it's charged with with these emotional memories, isn't it? Yes. With your your dad in particular and I I hadn't appreciated that uh the priest and Reverend Swans Swanson, that's right, had died round about the same time. Oh my goodness. And and then we we journey, you know, to these recent days when we've had churches linking and merging. Um and that's you know one of the things I have really admired about both of you is the way you've given yourselves to service. You given yourselves to serving as serving Christ yourself, you know, Mourag as as as session clerk at Muir Relief in the Union there and still continuing as a as a legacy session clerk on the leadership team, and surely your involvement as worship leader going round the congregations and serving so faith faithfully and fruitfully. Um and you know that's that's that's to be admired, but there must be, and I know there is there's in the midst of this journey, there's lament as well, there's sorrow, there's there's some grief too. Tell us a wee bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Obviously you can worship anywhere, um, but there is the loss of your own family, church family, your own you make new make a new family, but there's that loss there. There's a loss of belonging to a particular place, um just an a naturalness you've got to go out and forge new relationships.
SPEAKER_02So um it's takes you out of your comfort zone.
SPEAKER_01But I think you have to get involved in the new place to become part of it, to become part of the family. There's no point just going and sitting in the pew, otherwise you're missing out on an awful lot of Christian fellowship. Um it's difficult, it's been it's been easier in this time because we have moved down to West Road but knew lots of things were still happening up the road. We still had the mission centre, and we still have a fantastic boys' brigade over a hundred that got scouts. Because the uh if you look back to uh the relief church as it was, that church was open every day in the past. We had uh Girls Brigade on the Monday, we had Men's Felt on the Tuesday, the Guild over 50s, Scouts Brigade, Boys Brigade, the Badminton Club. It was always being used, you know. So it's it's sad now to think that just the doors are going to come down on it and um and it won't be used, you know. Because it it was a community because it was as well, it it had a social life as well. With ways and means did have to raise money, but it also had like dances, social dances, so people would mix and um so it was uh it was a it was a aiding community and as well as church family.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, aye. And what about yourself, Shirley, in terms of this journey that that we're on Yeah, well I think I've been fortunate.
SPEAKER_03I've been fortunate as a worship leader because when we had our union service in May 21, uh I think it it was the Reverend Stuart Burse who had the last service on the Sunday, it was very, very sad.
SPEAKER_02This is when relief was merging with merging with Muir.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and that was our last Sunday service on I think it was something like the 13th of May 21. And that was a very sad day. And like Morig said, you think you're going to another church, how welcome will that make you feel? You've you're worried about that as well. But I have to say that Muir Church have welcomed all of us, they've welcomed all of us as uh we hoped, and it's just been very good. But I think I'm fortunate that I get out and about, I get to Dreghurn, I get to Girdle Toll, and so that has helped the transition for me and uh and plus the welcoming at uh all the churches, all the churches. But it's been very sad because uh we're no spring chickens and Wolfridge long memories of happy times at the relief church in Bourcher Hill.
SPEAKER_01And you have that sadness because you do lose a lot of church members who are not who A don't want to go, but other ones who are not fit to travel so um through ill health or through age, so you you do lose a lot of people which is sad.
SPEAKER_02And there are there are artifacts as well, aren't there? There's uh things like uh the communion tables and there's a lot of things in churches that are dedicated to people.
SPEAKER_01Um communion table is dedicated to my dad, the uh Baptismal Font is dedicated to uh a previous elder, uh Harry Bissett. Um there's a a stained glass window dedicated to a former elder, Robert Mackey. The eldest chairs were bought from a legacy left by uh an elder, William Smith. So there's there's lots of things that you are leaving behind that you've got special memories for people there.
SPEAKER_03Well we had an old member, um she was 90 a couple of months ago, and she was she played the piano at the Sunday school for years. Um sadly her sights uh going down, and she hasn't been able to get back for a while. But for her 90th birthday, we managed to get she was a guild member and she sat sewing one of the banners and she wondered what would happen to these banners when the church closed its doors. So as a surprise, we managed to get one down. We climbed up the ladder and we managed to get it down via snooker cue and we unhooked it, we got it down. I took it and sponged it all because it was a bit uh Fousty Fousty, as you see. That's a good Scottish word, Morg. It was a bit fousty, and uh I hung it out in the my rope and got it nice and fresh for her, and we took it down, we took it down uh to her birthday celebration at her uh daughter-in-law's house, and she was delighted, absolutely delighted. She got photographs taken with it, so that was a really nice I really I I felt really good about it. I felt really good that we'd done that for her. It was a really nice gesture. She asked for it, we found it, and we got her it. So that was nice. It's great, really nice.
SPEAKER_02And it is heartbreaking to to be releasing buildings that and and and these artifacts, some of them that that uh hopefully we can find good homes for, but nonetheless, just uh the grief and the pain of of letting go of the spaces, these sacred spaces, these special spaces, and and and the church family at at Muir Relief I I I I know exactly what you're talking about when you talk about that a warmth, there is a warmth, and and it's always a good sign when people are staying on for a cup afterwards. That's always a good sign. And people want to do that and they do that, and and there's a good chin wag afterwards and catching up and and it encourages friendship and fellowship, and I know there's other things that have been going on.
SPEAKER_01That's something we we brought down from relief. I I started that tea coffee uh because they didn't really do it there, but uh it was a way to try and get different people to get to know each other, you know, um relax with a cup of tea afterwards, you know. Um we used to have a road up in relief, which was my intention down at West Road, but it's ended up in two ladies doing it all the time.
SPEAKER_03So they don't seem to be quite happy to do it along with other things. You always find if you want a job done, ask a busy person.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And and there is the there is the unfortunate hemorrhaging of of people and and the church family as we journey into a a new phase and we're in this transition where in time we'll be closing the doors at Muir Relief and and the hope and prayer is that that people will go somewhere. That's the most important thing, isn't it? That we're still a part of a wider family of God. And hopefully that a good number will stay with United Irvine because the in terms of the witness and the worship of God's people in Irvine, it's important that we that we try to set things up for the the future generations, isn't it? Yes. And uh what what's what's the what what's the what's the feeling among folk? I know that there are folk that that are quite angry about it, but uh is that is there a is there a willingness, is there a readiness to to to journey forward do you think?
SPEAKER_03I think for some people there are, but others are sticking to their guns and when their church closes they'll not be at any other church. But hopefully they're in the in the minority. Hopefully people will realise I mean I remember when I was unwell, I was unwell with a serious disease, and um I didn't think I would get back to a church. I was off ill for quite a while, then I recovered and then I took a bad turn again. And I thought I wouldn't get back to church um for a while after it. And you kind of lose a bit of something when you're not going to church on a Sunday. Uh you you pretend that you can sit and watch things online and it's working, but it doesn't really. It doesn't really, it's just fellowship. You need to be in with other people. And um I hadn't gone, I hadn't gone in January, a whole of January. I took time off to recover. And it was snowing this day, it was a Friday, and I thought I have to make my mind up, but I have to make my mind up. Am I going back to the church or am I just gonna drift away? And this wasn't too long ago. And uh I went out in the snow, it was really heavy snow one Friday afternoon, and I passed my old church building, and there was a sign up, and I think it came from Amos to say, How can I not proclaim the word of the Lord? Something along those lines, you probably know it. How can I not proclaim God's word? And I came back home and I sat down and I fell asleep, and I was woken by the phone, and it was um Barbara Urkett, who was the interim moderator at Girdle Toll, and she said, I've I wonder if you could do me a real favour. I'm looking for somebody to take the service on Sunday. And I said, Do you know Barbara, you are the messenger from God? You've made my mind up, and the answer is yes, I'll come. And I never looked back after that. Never looked back, so I knew I had to come, and I'm pretty sure most of the congregation, if they are able, will decide not necessarily on locality, they might go somewhere else. I know people are coming from one end of the town to Dreghurn to go. Um one end of one town to the other end of another town. So uh I hope they do, but sadly we will lose. Sadly we will lose people along the way.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there's some people who just don't like change and then there's other people who for practical reasons maybe can't get up to either Gerd Atoll or they can't get down to to Fullerton. They've got to rely on buses, it's it's it's not very practical. And I know because I I thought at one point when we were moving down to Race Road, you know, my ideal world, oh yes, we'll get this community bus, like dial a bus, and take people down, but not everybody's fit to go on a bus and things, you know. And and you can you can try and get as many car lifts as well, but it's uh sometimes it's not always practical. But um hopefully people got once they got over the initial sadness, anger. Um the main thing is people worship whether it's still in Irving or whether it's elsewhere, I just don't like when people just fall away.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, continue with Christ and community is so important as you're saying, yeah, Shirley, that that uh we need people, need people, we need uh brothers and sisters to encourage us to build us up to challenge us and stretch us. And uh and that's a big part of growing up in Christ, isn't it? Growing up into our into our baptism and and one of the challenges, huge challenges for us is is the witnessing and reaching out and connecting with people and and helping people come to faith, isn't it? It does. And uh yeah, we we must be praying into that and and uh very easily we we we shrink into ourselves and and uh it's a it's a huge challenge to to open up and and see that there's people beyond our walls, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Especially back in the day when Mora talked about the amount of bodies that were in the relief church. I mean I was astounded because going back to Colwinning, the Congregational Church, just a small church, small church, I think it held about 60 or something, 60 or 80. Not much. But it looked busy because it was small. But when you went up to the relief, the sanctuary was full. The doors had been.
SPEAKER_01It was a church church extension, so you had the sanctuary, and then you pulled back to the church.
SPEAKER_03And then you had And the church hall was full. Church hall was full as well. And inevitably we get boys coming in from the youth organisations, the boys' brigade usually. They would come in a wee bit late uh when the service had started. The elders had to go into the stage and bring chairs to the back of the hall to fit the boys in. I mean, how great is that?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01And the other good thing was we had uh organisation concerts, so uh like the the young wives, the Sunday school leaders, the scouts, the boys' brigade, all took a turn. Um I had to be put on this concert, and uh that also brought in the families to come and see. So again the the hall was full those days as well. I mean I I remember the days of a nightmare really, but in a good way, uh three double decker buses for Sunday school trips down to Girvin and uh Rick and Glen and places like that.
SPEAKER_02And you know, for the for the church to grow in the future, uh as in the present, we you know it's so important that uh our older people who are the majority of our congregations are committed to to Christ and committed to to growing the people of God and committed to uh you know reaching out and and encouraging the reaching out. I mean some of us can't do it anymore, but but we can pray, can't we? We can be encouraging, we can be positive and and uh you know it's that sort of spirit that I see in yourselves, which I thoroughly admire and appreciate. Um that that's so important that because because you know we're we're we're wanting to set things up, aren't we, for the for the future generations that there will be witness and worship here in Irvine, in United Irvine Church and and and and and other congregations in the in the area.
SPEAKER_01I did hear I think in the re television yesterday somebody say children are not the future of the church. Children are still the presence of the church, you know, and we have to have the children involved and we have to it's just trying to get families involved in the church life, you know that it's important.
SPEAKER_02And certainly there are indications that that younger people are are are yearning for and looking for significance and and purpose and and and peace uh and and it is for us to be available and accessible and and and relatable um as we as we look to connect and encourage. Yes, in crossing together.
SPEAKER_03It's busy up there, there's a bit going up in the mission centre, which is encouraging.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03But it's whether they they can take the next step.
SPEAKER_02Yes, the transition to different different locations. We pray that that will that will go well and that uh we'll continue to thrive. Well, thanks so much. Thank you. Sadly Morag, you're you're stars, absolute stars, and uh you're a great blessing and encouragement to me and to and to United Irvine Church. Bless you, bless you, and thanks for tuning in, folks. Subscribe and uh why not look at the previous uh previous podcast that we've had and uh and let's journey together.