News vs Opinion - Whose Truth Is It Anyway?

Is there any real news anymore? When the line between reporting and opinion is blurred, what does that mean for democracy and public trust? What is our responsibility as consumers to interrogate what we read, watch and share? 

In our first heated topic episode, Patty and Larry have takes and they don’t always align. We also introduce our brand new segment: the (one day sponsored by) Ground News segment where we put headlines from our opposite angles under the microscope. This one got lively. Rumpelstiltskin! 

Between the Steins is a father-daughter podcast; real talk across the ocean and the aisle. 

Find us on all social media platforms @betweenthesteins. Drop us an email at betweenthesteins@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

As a recovering journalist, there's lots of things that people, because of the way the news industry has changed, people may not know the difference between what a news story is and what an opinion story is. And with AI, it's becoming even more important to know the difference. And you'll find out more about that on Between the Steins.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Absolutely. Today we hit a little bit harder than our previous two episodes. Today we touch on where my dad and I both get our news and how different those spaces might look. And then we actually changing all of the time. And then we we uh premiere a new segment that we are calling the ground news segment, where we look up headlines for the same topics from each of our algorithms, and we try to come to some understanding of what's the best headline between these two. So between these two steins, am I right?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

That's the right thing. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Ridiculous. Anyway, thanks for being here, everybody. Stay plugged in because we're coming at you live. Kind of.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Oh by golly.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

We've done it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

We have, and here we are, because that's where we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

That's where we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Uh and I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you first off, there's a possibility of snowmageddon all across the central United States. They're talking about a 24-hour snowstorm that could dump 24 inches of snow all across the the great heartland, the great plains of America. So last night I went out and purchased 14 truckloads of toilet paper. So I'm set.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

And five pallets of canned tomatoes.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

There you go. Canned tomatoes.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

It was by five. It was by three, get two.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Exactly. Get two free.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

It'd be rude not to.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I mean, it's just stunning. And and everybody's gonna, I mean, they're talking about a huge snowstorm back to the early 2000s. It's it's never been this big. And and that it's it's a white Christmas that's just a little bit late.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I was gonna say, because you were just talking about how it was so gosh darn hot towards the end of as we're recording this. So this is the end of January at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, we were setting, we were setting record temperatures. I mean, in the 80s in January. This crazy come for you.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Anyway, well uh anyway, welcome back everyone to Between the Steins. Uh, that's my dad, Larry Stein.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Oh, that's me. That's me. That's me. But and and your Patty Stein. Yeah, the producer, the producer, your daughter. Yes, yes, daughter and producer and all around great girls.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, well, that's that's me. Um anyway, we'll go back to between the slides. My first question, as always, is how's the weather? But you just told me. Uh I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

So I wanted to know in anticipation.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, in anticipation of the cold. Uh, it is it is a stereotype here at the moment. It hasn't stopped hasn't stopped raining for about two days. And wow, frankly, I'm sick of it. And it's got me in a bad mood.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Well, you know, if you if you can grow put your put your wet shoes by a heater and then you can grow some mushrooms and create a little new stream of income. That's always good.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

That's the kind of side hustle I need, really.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah, yeah. It worked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

I know. I well, I'm annoyed because I want to go, I want to go to the gym or I want to go run, but I just do not want to go outside. It's just disgusting. But we must go on. Um, so today's topic is news versus opinion. It's our first kind of politically charged topic, but it's not our first time recording it. Do you want to talk about last week?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah. Um, uh, you know, the the the it it there's a there are great divides in in in the world. There's rural, there's urban, there's Chevrolet, there's Ford, there's Sooners, there are Cowboys, there are Cowboys, there are Indians. It's it's it's a great divide. And people that are Sooner fans, football Sooner fans, or University of Oklahoma Sooners, then they have an opinion and uh and they support their opinions. And if someone is is deterring that opinion, then that automatically makes them be more supportive of their uh of their team. And and it doesn't matter if you tell me that something about the Sooners that you believe and you've got the facts, I'm it just doesn't make any sense. And that's the same thing with with people on the political spectrum. The problem that we see is that people believe what news is and they don't understand that it's not news, it's opinions. And we talked about the the Fox News, and it's the number one cable channel, and and the the news stories. There are two different types of shows. When you're watching a newscast with a morning news show, and they are talking about the news, and there's a reporter that provides their insight about being on the scene and providing that information, that is a news story. The problem is that people bring in on those news shows, they'll bring in people that have an opinion about what's going on to talk as part of the coverage of the news. But it's not news. What it is is opinions. So the people that don't like the news may not even know what the news is because some people may hate uh uh Jesse Waters, who is one of the number one opinion shows on Fox News, or Greg Gutfeld is a comedian who does shows on he's a top-rated late night host, but they're not news, they are opinions. Sean Hannity, he covers news, but he is an opinion show. And and all of those things, when you see Brett Bear, who covers the news for Fox News, he's their senior political reporter. When he starts out his newscast at 401 Central Time with all of the news, the coverage with reporters, then he'll say, We'll be back with our panel after these messages. That's when it's no longer news. He's asking people's opinions. He's trying to direct them to comment about what they think is going to happen next. And we talked about those things. As a reporter, as a former reporter, recovering journalist, I re I know what news is. I also know what opinion is. When when a reporter starts using, when they use their their their opinions in news stories, that's wrong. And you have to you have to be careful of that. And and if when you're when you're looking at things like somebody comes up on a on a story and they start talking about Venezuela, you know, what's what's the significance? Well, historically, for 250 years, the United States has has maintained that this part of the world, we don't want to have any foreign intervention because we almost the Russians back in the early 60s practically blew up the world, and we almost let them because we were really ticked off that they were putting ballistic missiles in Cuba and they could have destroyed Washington, DC. So we said, you got to get those out. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yes, we will get into this. But anyway, so last week we were talking about this, yeah. Um, and we set up a safe word, which we're gonna set up again. Um and I think we I think what I figured out last week, I was thinking about this a lot, is that we both care very deeply about the state of the world. I think we both care very deeply about political uh happenings, and we care about the country of the United States of America, we care about people, and I I really value the conversation we had at the end when we stopped recording. Right, which I'm glad I wish it was recorded just for our own sake, but where we just said like we got to a level of disagreement where I think we stepped outside of who we want to be and how we want to show up. Right. Um but anyway, I just wanted to say thank you for not walking away from that conversation by hanging up on me. And I'm just glad that we get to to do it a second time. But we gotta be honest with the listeners because sometimes these conversations get sticky and sometimes they get heated. And we're not gonna shy away from that, but we are going to make an effort to do it in a way that's helpful and uh doesn't just add to the negative discourse that's happening. Um but anyway, so what we did, we did uh before we get into the the topics, the stuff we did talk about a safe word. So let's just go over what we talked about last time. Um because we did the safe word did make an appearance in last week's episode. So this the safe word for me uh comes up when I don't want to feel disrespected, I don't want to feel categorized, I don't want to feel like I'm minimized or dismissed, I don't want to feel like I'm being put into a box because of my age or because of how I identify politically. How would you not like to feel what would make you pull the safe word?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I I feel the same way.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

I mean it it it's it's the it is the everybody has often strongly held opinions, and and and many people think, well, that's okay. Let's just reach a compromise. Well, there's some things that I can't compromise on. I I I might be able to reach a consensus with you on some things, but when we're talking about some deeply held beliefs, they may be religious, they may be political, they may be personal, but I care about those beliefs very much. And I'm I'm all I'm I'm able to listen to people and I and I can listen to them, and I can I can feel I can I can absorb their their concerns, I can understand their concerns, I can argue their concerns, but that's not that doesn't change the position that I hold very deeply. And and I and and being being part of a uh an institutional system where the over the years the amount of of data that is out there that I've consumed, you know, it it it's it is those types of those types of issues, they're so it it's it's like I remember there was a gentleman I was dealing with, and he took one little teeny part of a statute and started arguing that's why we need to change everything. And I said, you know, that's really interesting that you'd say that. And I I can understand, I read, I can comprehend, I've seen the statute, but what you're talking about is taking one thread out of a mosaic of fabric and saying, because that one thread exists, this is what should happen. And he doesn't understand that the threads are all meshed together to create a statute that addresses multiple issues, not one. And in order to be able to find out what the thread means, you've got to look at the whole pattern of the material, the fabric, to understand. And sadly, you know, I it as as one learns more, those are those are the other aspects, which opens up instead of being so closed-minded as to think that one thread controls everything, yeah. You can unravel things, but we can understand that all of those threads together make uh a statute, make a uh title of a of a constitution or title of of legislation. And there's so many different things that impact it. It's not just one single thread.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think um that also comes back to something else we talked about last week, which was that you know, I want this to be a space where we feel like we can speak about these things that are difficult to speak about without this threat of trying to catch each other out. I I don't want to come into this having to have all of my all of my stats on my on this. I have nothing on this screen, my separate screen. Like I'm not ready to like snap back at you with something. Because the thing is, if if it were a list of facts that would change your opinion on something, your opinion on that would have changed already years ago.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

But it's not about that anymore. And I think maybe that's what I I see a lot of people in our positions, because frankly, a lot of boomers are not having conversations with millennials. Like people are not speaking the way that we are, which is why I think what this is is very important. And beyond that, I think what they come to that conversation with are tools and debate structure that is trying to follow some sort of logical fact finding thing. But it's it's it's beyond that at this stage because we all have access to the same internet and we all have access to the same information. And so you can, which is what we're gonna talk about. You know, you can find a lot of information that supports your belief, whether it's wrong or right. Um so anyway, so our safe word is rumpel stiltskin, which was your choice. And I like it.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Because you can't mistake it for anything else.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

It's well, unless we talk about uh hum humple, humble you can't mistake it for anything else. Nothing runs with the wrong news.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Humperting.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, humberding something. Okay, so perfect. So we'll talk about news versus opinion, then we'll go into your news segment that we talked about. Fun fun. Okay. Then we'll go into my new segment, and then we'll talk about some music, and then we'll go home. Sounds good to me. Okay, awesome. Let me get a timer for you. And then we'll fire away. All right, so you've kind of touched on it already. Um but it's news versus opinion.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Right. Here we go. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

So where do you get your news?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Uh mostly from the local newspaper, uh, and which is the Daily Oklahoma, and I get it on my phone. I I don't believe I've had uh a newspaper from that organization in my possession for more than a year.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Do they have them at the front at the front door at work, or does it are they not printing them like that?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

They are supposed to deliver them to the to the guard shack, and we used to have it delivered to our front door, which was wonderful. But the only newspaper that I actually get it physically is the journal record, which I also read, uh, which is a uh a publication, a legal publication in the the area, the state of Oklahoma, and also the county, where there are legal, legal things. And and there's a lot of wonderful uh different folks that support that provide news stories for the journal record. And the Daily Oklahoma also has a lot of USA Today uh information. So there's a there's a it's a it's a mix, a blend of different uh news stories and different perspectives, and oftentimes with they they don't necessarily um I I the Daily Oklahoman was an iconic newspaper that was a a very, very conservative newspaper that reflected, I think, most of the state's opinions. The the Daily Oklahoman at one time was was the newspaper, the leader of of probably the Southwest, as far as as uh as opinion and and everything else on on government and things. It was it was fun. There was a bunch of people that I knew that were writers for them, and that's changed. Uh, it's the ownership has changed, and and now it is becoming more of a USA Today clone. And a lot of the pay the news stories are coming out of USA Today because sometimes the opinions are also from USA Today. And it's not as it's you know, Oklahoma is a total red state. I mean, we've we voted for the president uh Trump three times, and and every county in the state. In fact, the the president notes that with his people that he the congressional members from Oklahoma. And you know, that that's that's a that's quite a qualification for him. And he he likes Oklahoma. And and I don't know whether the newspapers are are as descriptive of the population of the state as it as they used to be. And that's just changed because of ownership and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Fair. I think that's an oh god, that's probably a whole other podcast is the idea that people can own news and that who owns news decides what kind of information is then spread.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Have you seen those side-by-sides of um I've seen those side-by-sides of local news stations running off of the exact same scripts when it comes to the same stories?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Um that really concerns me. And and then and then I'll I'll watch. I've I've got uh I've got Fox News on my phone. I also have other news services that come on, uh CNN, MSNBC. Uh those are those are other things. It's and it and a lot of it is from the from the ability of being able to have so much news is is a deterrent, and it and it's it's it can be overwhelming. And I know I and I'm not very good at at getting away. I love I love to read, but I'm I'm reading so much what I think is non-fiction news, and and sometimes I'll be very disc concerned, very concerned the way the stories are written by what are supposed to be journalists in a real objective news story. Yeah. I mean, and and on the and and it that and that's probably the other part that really blurs this whole thing. When when you have a reporter that is talking about uh a story having to do with, you know, obviously it it it the president Trump is dominating the news cycle, obviously, at the national level and even the international level. But and I I have I can see when they come on and they'll say president Trump lied when he said, Well, wait a minute, that's that's not your job. Your job is to say, President Trump said, um Chuck Schumer says President Trump is lying. You're not supposed to tell me the president's lying, you're supposed to present the facts, and that's part of the problem with how news becomes opinion and opinion becomes news.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

And those are the things, and it happens a lot, and I know it and I read it, and and it, and for me, it triggers things because I as as a recovering journalist, I care about that because when you're when you're you're you may be inadvertently doing it because you think it's neat and you want to make a name for yourself, or you want to get on the opinion shows this Sunday, but it's not right. You shouldn't be doing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah. Um so I I get my news a little differently than you, I think. I think a lot of my news comes via social media. I think, um, but it's by the same establishments that you are interested in that have social media presence because now it's it's very different than it was even 10 years ago. Oh people are getting, it's crazy. So I get it kind of builds into my feed. So whether it's BBC or Sky News, which I roughly follow around, but then I get a lot of my news from podcasts as well. I I think I I find it helpful to have something that if I'm on the stair stepper, I'm listening to. I listen to a lot of Jon Stewart, actually. I really like Jon Stewart. Do you still like Jon Stewart?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

What's that?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Do you still like Jon Stewart?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

I I don't, you know, since he left the Daily Show, I don't pay that much attention to, but I I forgot to mention X, which is really tremendous for being able to cover quick news stories. The other one is YouTube videos. YouTube, the the videos with the small segments, the shorts, the stories, the videos are extremely informative. And you don't have to sit through 30 minutes of newscast to be able to see the story you want. And that's really that's really the amazing change that's happened because you've got a news story that's being created by a reporter, and then they will put it on. And they'll have a video of just the part that they think is important. Well, sometimes that's not the most important part. That's not the who was it? And it's an avalanche stuff of information.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

It's the Paul Harvey, isn't it? The rest of the story.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Like, yeah, you know. And that's that is, you know, that is that's true. I mean, there are so many facts facets of that. And I've been there. I mean, I've I've read the stories of of what I think is important. And and and sometimes it doesn't mesh up with the other people who are writing the story. But you know, I've I've I've read stories, and I'm I'm trying to edit them mentally, thinking that's not that's it, that's not part of the news. Yeah, the most important part is something that you've ignored, or you left until the third paragraph. And that's you know, that's just writing. And I and I I remember I remember visiting with one reporter that just didn't get it. And and I and I told the the the producers, I said, okay, here's the problem. If we sent this reporter out to cover the second coming of Christ, the reporter would come back and say, I got some B-roll, and they say, What did you get an interview? No, I didn't get an interview. Why not? Well, because he said he was coming back. I mean, what's the big deal? Nice. They there's a, you know, and I I've I've often said, I just want somebody who's curious. You don't have to have a journalism degree. If you know how to write, that's perfect. I need that. But if I'm gonna hire you to do something, I need you to be curious about stuff. When I when I covered the capital, I wasn't covering the stuff that was coming off the AP wire. I was looking for stuff that wasn't on the AP wire because that's what you're supposed to do. You know, if the governor has a news conference, you're gonna cover it, but maybe you can find some little snippet or one of the people that are there that you can do a story that's more interesting than governor something or other said today that there will be four people on his cabinet in the coming year. Whoopty friggin' do. Yeah, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

I don't care, Bill. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, but but can you tell me, Governor, did you go out last night and pie 14 cases of toilet paper? Because I got a highway patrol trooper that said he was driving you around and you went to 14 stores to pick up all that dang toilet paper, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

24 canes of topped tomatoes.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Exactly. Now I understand you got about 14 bags of taters too now. So, you know, it's just it's perspective. And and and I I've done that with people that I've met at restaurants where I will look, I will look at their personality and I see them and they enjoy what they're doing, and I'll give them a business card and I'll say, if you ever are considering changing jobs and you'd like to work in an office, call me because I can train you to learn everything about the business that I do, but I can't train people to have the personality that you have.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

You've never offered me a job.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Well, I you got to change personality, but when you've got a great when you've got a great personality and you're engaging and you care about people, that's wonderful. I can't train people to do that. I'd love to be able to, but it's very difficult. And and if you've got that personality, I can I can turn you into a superstar with the knowledge that you would have. It'd be great again.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Only if only I had a better personality.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Hiring hiring uh uh people like a family member, that's kind of hard to do sometimes. And it is what is that called again? It's called it's called uh nepotism. Nepotism, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Perfect. Yeah, anyway, vote for me, guys. My turn. Um, yeah, I well, and I think another thing, which I think we will touch on in a in a bit when we go into this other segment, but the the other thing about this, and there are so many benefits, and I'm glad that you said that about like YouTube shorts. It's the same with TikTok for me, like Instagram. There is, there's a much more digestible way to get so much news. But then that also results in I'm getting, like you said, I'm getting one thread of a larger tapestry. I'm getting the thread that makes me the angriest because that's what the algorithm is gonna feed me, because that's what I'm gonna interact with more and make more money for them. Same with you, you're gonna get a thread that makes you go, oh, or makes you go, of course. You know, like it's and and then and then that pushes us further and further and further into these margins of these political realms. And I probably think you are far more right than you actually are because my algorithm has taught me what people like you think. And it's and it's the same for you. You probably think I am so far left and so far beyond what you can see from where you are. And it's by design. And I'm like, I'm just exhausted by it, and I feel very helpless to and that and that's why that's why you know you're right.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

The algorithm is just gonna keep on feeding you whatever it is, more and more. And right now I'm trying to figure out if I can build a container car into a house on some land I've got over in the eastern part of the county. So now I'm getting all these container car things.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Oh, your your algorithms, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

And so I'm I'm I'm looking at, oh, that'd be fun. I wonder how much that'd cost. So I got my engineer guy and he's looking at it, and and then I'm looking at the other ones. I said, Ooh, ooh, I've got this property down at the lake. I think that'd be perfect there. So I keep on getting all these things. And then I got into this into this little cartoon series from Japan or someplace. It's Boo-Boo and Doo-Doo. What is going on? What I'm just telling you, it is the funniest thing. It when uh when when uh long time ago they had the they had a cartoon that was in the newspaper that we nobody reads anymore, and it was these these two people, a girl and a boy, and they were in love, and they they'd have little cartoons every day about I just love him. You know, it's silly stuff. Well, that now it's a video. You heard about this? That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

These are these are your boys?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Oh, yeah, they're great. They're great.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yeah, it's just fun stuff to watch, and and it it's just it's fun stuff, and I and I would so my my algorithm is having doo-doo and boo boo building uh container car classes, container cars, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Perfect. I well, I know what I'm getting you for Christmas forever. Good lord, that's really helpful for me.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah, uh, yeah, there's fun stuff, but you know, they you're right. It and and when you start looking at that stuff, and then all of a sudden you're saying, wait a minute, it just keeps on feeding and feeding, and then dead scrolling. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, Doom screw was saying, okay. If you took if you took all the time that people are using to scroll, which was designed by a guy who said, This is going to be great because you're going to increase everybody's productivity, and now people are just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling for hours. And it's estimated, this is an incredible thing. He says the the estimated amount of scrolling every day and every year is the equivalent of five or six lifetimes of people that are spending time doing absolutely nothing about anything except feeding the dopamine of seeing something they really like. And that's that's the thing. How do you have you been to dinner with someone and their phone is always up? And then they're looking at that, they're not paying attention to you. And I mean, I've I've been in on meetings with folks that I know and I love, and we'll be sitting there at a dinner with a number of people. I say, okay, here's the basket, put your phone in it. And they there's well, no, what what about my watch? Watch two. I I don't I don't want to sit here and be diverted from conversing with you, and I don't think you deserve that either. So put it first one that touches their phone picks up the tab. That's that's the vibe for me. That feels right. Works for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

It's uh it's like you said last week, I think you were saying, you know, we've created this 24-hour news cycle. Yeah, that is this monster that is constantly needing to be fed, and nothing it never stops.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

And which I think feeds in feeds into that non-news and more opinion news because if you gotta feed a 20 yeah, 24, no, it's probably a 26-hour news cycle. I mean, it's just overload, and then what if you've got a news story for today and it's all quiet at 11:30 at night unless something terrible happens, and God hopes no one wants to see terrible things happen. Well, what do you do? Oh, you bring on some think tank person who's speculating about what might happen tomorrow because of what somebody said two days ago. Well, excuse what can't you just give me the news? But now the news is if you're listening to radio, and I do, I listen to a lot of talk radio. When you're sitting there at the top of the hour and at the bottom of the hour, they have a little news break, and there's not very much of it. And and and oftentimes it's just enough of 25 seconds of a story that doesn't really do anything except say, gee, I think I'll check if they're talking about that on X or on Sky News. And and it's it's just continuing, it's continuing to muddy the waters.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

So how do you combat that then? You were saying you kind of self-edit while you're reading things, while you're consuming things.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah, and that's the dilemma. I mean, people don't have the experience of being involved in the media or journalism, and they think what they're seeing now is journalism, and it's not, and often it's not.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Well, and plus AI, which we haven't even touched on, but AI is this whole other monster that I think has I think has a lot of incredible applications into life. And it has a lot of negative implications on society and on the environment that needs to be you know acknowledged. But the reality of it is that it is so intrinsically in our feeds now that there's probably I guarantee 100% there are videos that you and I have both seen separately that we will have already put in our brains as that's real. And we had no idea that it was AI.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Well, and and now some of the I think we mentioned it previously. I mean, if you if you can see the videos, and they it's just started, it's it's been growing so fast, but it you the technology that that was needed to be able to accomplish it, you know, 15, 20 years ago, they had the little uh jib jab things where you put people's faces on them and they had cartoon characters of elves that would do a dance. Yeah, now we've got Abraham Lincoln talking with Ulysses S. Grant near the fields of Gettysburg, and it's all animated. And you're saying, wait a minute, what what I don't and now you're gonna have people saying, Well, I've seen the videos of Grant and Abraham Lincoln. You know, they said that there weren't any videos, but there are because I've seen them. Yeah. And can you imagine? Can you imagine Ken Burns Civil War being redone now with all that technology? I mean, you'd have the whole battlefield in live action. Yeah. And the troops live. I remember when I was in when I was in uh school, they the we had the the film strips, which were boring. And and when we had the the I remember we were talking about the Crusades, and they had the crusaders in a in a picture from a movie, and then I moved the camera back and forth so it looked like they were moving. And everybody said, Oh, that's great. And and now it's it's it it's out there, and you're right. I mean, the things that people are watching, there's not that sometimes it's not a real person. You have to be very, very discon, very discerning to be able to determine.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yeah, yeah. Two things. Uh, the Ken Burns, we I I wanted to mention the Ken Burns documentary, the new one on the American Revolution, um, which I'm gonna try to figure out how to access. Probably illegally, don't tell anyone. I won't tell anybody. And then also, uh, it was just made me think also Peter Jackson, I think, did a movie on World War One, probably about 10 years now, 10 years ago, maybe, where he took photos of World War One soldiers and brought them to life in a whole film on World War One. And I saw it in theaters, and it was I just remember at the time being like, nobody's ever done anything like this before. This is insane.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Well, um just about it, just about a year ago, I mean, there's there's a program that that uh clears up tattered photos and makes them real, and then they animate them. And I mean, uh watching watching people react to a family member that's been dead for a hundred years looking at them and smiling causes the emotional outburst of just crying and tears, and it's phenomenal to see that. And it's similar to when you know technology in all ways is the and and being able to see. They they have the videos that if you've ever seen that bring tears to your eyes, where there's a little child who's maybe four or five years old who's never had the ability to see because they haven't had glasses on, and then they they put the glasses on and they look at their mother and their mother that and and the baby look and you you you cry because you see this an amazing technological advance, or they have the the the member the family member, the father who's never been able to hear, and they put something in there, a cochlear implant, and they can hear, and they start bursting out in tears. The emotions that we can see, that's real stuff, and and that's what makes great videos. And and if you can get those in your algorithm, that those are the kind of inspiring things to make you know, yeah, there's a God and there's hope for the world.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

It's it's it's either side, I think. Like when it comes to these kinds of things, it's either using it for good or using it for bad. Um and I I can always tell if I've been, you know, when I'm scrolling or the kind of feed that's feeding me. I can tell where it stands based on how I feel. Um I can tell what kind of things it's feeding me. And like lately, I it's been I'm planning a trip to Vietnam at the moment, so it's a lot of Vietnam content, which is exciting. But it's also a lot of Donald Trump content at the moment around the uh the economic. Yeah. Uh footage of but not footage of what was being said, footage of what he looked like, how he presented himself, the things he said about um Gavin Newsom. And then Gavin Newsom's like post-interview. And again, like you said, like one chunk of this larger story of what's actually happening.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

And I've already decided what happened. I've already decided what was said, how he sounded, what everybody else in the room thought based on what my feed has told me and what. But have you know, have I gone and dug a bit deeper? Not yet, because it doesn't really serve me right now. Are you sure it was what Donald Trump said about Gavin Newsome or if it was Bessent, the secretary of No, it was the one who was in the back of the room when he was saying I used to get along with him really well, and then it zooms to him in the back of the room. Is it Gavin Newsome? I always get their names confused.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Could be, could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

But I think it was Newsom because then Newsom talked to the press after, and he was just saying, like, this is all a farce. Like, I don't uh he says one thing, he does a different thing, blah, blah, blah. And he just went off.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. It's it for tat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

But then your your feed is probably telling you here's what he here's the substance of what he said.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yeah, well, yeah, and and really uh what he's focusing on is is the the the arrangements that were being made on trying to create a strategic defense system on Greenland. And apparently, you know, that this has been it's been going on for a long, long time where presidents of the United States have been involved trying to be able to figure out a way of being able to obtain Greenland so we can defend the northern part of our hemisphere. And now it appears the president's worked out a deal with the with NATO and our allies so we can be able to start that that process of creating. We have we have a spaceport base on Greenland, but when you're looking at the if you're looking at the center, if you're looking at the world from the Arctic, you can see how important strategically that is because it's directly between Russia and us. And you know, I I wish that we didn't have to worry and be concerned about that, but they're trying to figure out a way of being up to be able to protect it with our NATO allies. Because you know, the the even the Finns were talking about how you know we think at least the gentleman, the president of Finland, was saying, Well, I think we can handle you know defending ourselves without the United States. And I mean, even the people that they say, how are you gonna do that? And and it's the what what we're seeing from the Department of War effect, especially what happened in Venezuela, the the technology that's being used was amazing. I mean, they they they have a sonic pulse that uh caused the disabling of all of the Venezuelan troops. They they felt like they said they they're they felt like their their stomach, they were sick to their stomach, they felt like their head was going to explode, and it completely changed the the operation and what had to be done to be able to solve the and and complete the uh the operation. I it it's and and when we're looking at the international and uh the when you're looking down the road and and and trying to figure out what's gonna happen in 30 years, these are the things that we need to focus on now. And and it's really planning. And and I'm I'm I'm fascinated by what's happening in Davos. I mean, I'm I'm fascinated by what happened with the the peace panel that the president was proposing and getting all the suggestions in. Because I gotta tell you, you know, uh for a long time people have wondered what has the UN done? I mean, the idea was that it would preserve the peace and it would negotiate between those places where there's tribalism and and and wars, and and it really never it didn't seem to be very successful at it. It always ended up with Jimmy Carter with the with the peace accords or President Clinton working out a deal. And it was always the United States, and it very rarely did the United Nations create anything except you know, stories about how some ambassador had five thousand dollars worth of parking tickets that he's not going to pay because he's got uh diplomatic immunity. I mean that uh tell me, tell me what they've done. And I mean, the people they've put on their human rights commission often represent, or in the past have represented countries that don't particularly have very much dedication to human rights. So, so it this maybe maybe the time has come to change the United Nations and bring this group of people, these world leaders, that can really affect change instead of a dispersion of authority at the United Nations that really hasn't proven to many people that they can accomplish much, except spend money in the United States, money that we provide to the and look the other way when countries are committing the horrible atrocities, and when we and you know, the for the longest time the folks in in in conservative America were saying get the US out of the UN and get the UN out of the US.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

I mean, I think that's objectively nuts.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

I think I think you gotta have a rate of return.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

You know, I think that's fair, but I think if you're not gonna but I mean you can't you can't you can't deny that if if somebody like Barack Obama were trying to get us out of the UN. that there would be some red flags going up. Like that would cons that would concern me. It concerns me just generally. But like I think it's because it's a conservative man that maybe a lot of people are like, you know what?

unknown 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

No, I I I I think that Barack Obama would not exit the UN because the because of the the implications aming among his party members. I I I I it would I think he would be heralded as a great great move on his part to be able to get out of the UN and and and and maybe turn it into condos.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

I just didn't know this was the most important thing for us to be doing. And also he said Iceland like four times and he said it wrong he said Iceland instead of Greenland.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

I think we need to check his well it's it's it's an ice it's mostly covered with ice anyways.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

That's they're two different countries you're the president of the United States you need to get it right.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Yeah you can't say the wrong freaking country especially when you're talking about doing something that a lot of people are shocked and and that that's what your feed was saying did you see the video did you I did did he say Iceland he's talking about ice we want our people I'm I'm just saying that's what they that's what they were saying about ice land ice land want ice we need the ice there's there's a lot of stuff underneath the ice in in Greenland too much chat about ice i can't can't speaking of ice uh that's for 30 minutes so um let's roll right in what is the craziest news story of the week my interesting news story that was not on my playing card my list is the uh is the one regarding oh gosh now i'm buffering darn it oh no god i hate that when that happened they don't got wifi for you there now you know i'll tell you what um the one that i i find very interesting is the uh the the situation in in Davos when they're talking about a brand new peace proposal a peace panel okay made up of the the like the g8 the governments of the eight leading economies where you're able to be able to talk about having the the countries that can make a difference instead of the president of the UN who can't you know organize a a cookout to be able to get the top leaders from the world to figure out a way of making people stop killing each other and and organize a cookout and have a cookout a celebration yeah but that that's what you know that's what I was I and I and I you know it and that's your craziest story of the week no that's the story I wasn't expecting oh I see what's happening I thought sorry I thought it was gonna be like whoa no I I'm I'm I'm I think this crazy story of the week is a great idea but I I brought it up but I didn't I didn't I didn't do anything I think it's a great idea though for next time well for next time we'll just polish this right up you know uh sorry that's your crazy story I I don't have one see there you go so I I I just think that when you're looking at at the the the things that have happened and remember this has just been a year since uh president trump has been in office and and when you're when you're thinking of the changes that have happened objectively I think you say this is probably one of the most active administrations ever and one of the most diverse ever and has diverse you bet diverse how like in people that are involved women democrats gays LGBTQ gays yeah I mean you've got people what's that I said the alphabet people sure uh the LGBTQIAs yes and it's all it's all based on on on the relationships they have it did that it doesn't matter about those those personal issues it's based on performance it's merit based and I think it's it's it's a fascinating group I mean and and they all appear to get along well and when you're talking about when I'm when I'm thinking about a a presidential administration or any governmental administration I always like like to think about openness and when you've got a cabinet meeting that lasts two hours and the president and all the the cabinet members are there available to to be talking to the media I mean that is a phenomenal openness in government that I find extremely refreshing. And I like that a lot I also like openness in information and in government yeah it it and I I think that that they've set that they've set a new standard and if you and and the communication ability of all of those people is amazing. They take their job seriously they get involved in the media individually through X and other social media on their their in their different departments and they also engage with the media I mean that's that to me is an extremely important part to know what's happening in my government and I think they do it very well.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

It's my but I do I do worry I do worry when uh members of you know members of the press they call them press corps um when it seems from what I have seen that when arguments or angles of things that don't necessarily align with the way that the president would see things when those kinds of opinions or other pieces of information are brought into the press room um the press secretary seems to be very dismissive of them and seems to want them out of the room quite literally and that doesn't feel as open to me as I think I would like it to be. You know what I mean? Example um well there was I mean there was some some stuff going on uh probably about a week and a half ago there was a reporter from I think he was from Sky News and I think it was from Newsmax wasn't he well he he was I thought it was Sky News because he had a British accent or a Scottish accent. A Scottish yeah I I saw that I saw the video and he was saying you know here's this is how blah blah blah this and this happened and she called him a hack and said that he's not a real journalist and I I just don't know if that's the answer either. Like I I understand this like don't bring garbage in because that's how I feel about about it when it's the other side whatever that means. But like I don't know if calling people hacks or calling people pigs or you know using that kind of language when it comes to these conversations I just don't know if that's the solution either that feels to be that doesn't feel very open. That doesn't feel very honest.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah and and from the other side uh the not necessarily in this instance but there's a lot of people that yell at their television sets and and when they see somebody standing up to a journalist who may not present the facts that have been presented accurately or the way that they have had it presented to them on multiple newscasts. Yeah every once in a while they like to see the folks in in authority and a press secretary call out somebody for doing something that they don't think that they believe as well. And you know it's if if depending on I saw somebody the other night I think it was uh it was a video of uh momdhami the mayor of New York City on the view talking about the murder in Minneapolis that's not a murder it is a death it's tragic but murder is a pejorative word that escalates this further than it should be and that's the dilemma that I think she was dealing with uh miss uh I think well this this leads to our next segment really beautifully I think um you know just as much as there are people on a certain side of the aisle yelling at their TVs wanting people in authority to yell and bite back um I think the Democrats it's about damn time in my opinion that the Democrats start biting back as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

I think the Democrats for too long have been on the back foot. It's you know when they go low we go high and I think I'm really tired of the Democrats not not not yelling back, not pushing hard back because we're not getting anywhere we the Democrats aren't getting anywhere. I think only now it kind of feels like maybe there's some traction underneath them but it just feels like it's been this this game of the conservatives win because they're tough and because they're loud and because they are feisty and they get what they want. And the Democrats have always been like well we're not going to stoop to that level and I think I'm just kind of tired of that.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Well I I think that the you know when when they were when the Democrats were in power I think they got just about everything they wanted. So you know this is just the the way when you control when you when you controlled the presidency and the Congress both houses of Congress that they they were getting just about everything they deemed necessary and they wanted now the shoe is on the other foot and you know that's the that's the consequences of elections and it well and they they can't win them that's the problem with democrats they can't win the elections well and that's been a thing for 15 years. That's not no that's not true you you had democrats win in Virginia you had democrats that won in New Jersey in the gubernatorial races well will they be able to translate that into into a majority in the United States Senate or the United States House I don't know it depends on what happens in the next five six months. Which is why I'm saying like I think yeah I think we're maybe in a space now where we're on a better track for for that kind of success but it just this just is what it feels like in the past and this the CNN stuff that I watch you know the polling data on CNN it shows that the the Democrat Party right now is at historic low levels of popularity and and they the disapproval rating is is very high and and and I don't I what what we're going to see in the next this when people are paying their income taxes and the income taxes that are going to be you know the cuts that have gone into effect so you'll get more of your money back and then when you have more money and you have lower fuel prices and food prices that are going down then you see more people spending money on other things and enjoying themselves and buying things the economy becomes more robust and that all happens heading into November I you know that that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough to you when there's only there's only so much you can do to be able to make things look bad when things may be looking much better. And yeah we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

I'm in I'm in the Jon Stewart camp of like I want Donald Trump to do well. I want him to do what he said he would do. I want the country to be better off than when exactly than when we started like I I'm not I'm not one of these people who is relishing in the idea of people being worse off and not being able to afford their bills and being detained and being unrightfully detained. Like this is not this is not like I truly believe that I want I want the whole country to be better. And in order for that to happen it would have to be for Donald Trump to have some success. And I'm not so far gone that I can't see that. So I hope you are right and I well and if that means your Republicans are in offices then fine.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah well you know that it it it will it it all depends on so many variables I mean I I no one likes to think about about the the worst possible things that could happen between now and then yeah I you know there there are so many variables you pick your pick your poison and and and things can change overnight so you you're there but if if if the trajectory holds politics is about being able to present ideas that people agree with it doesn't matter which party you belong to if you can convince people that your ideas of of of keeping costs low in government being being efficient as you can saving taxpayers money whenever you can and providing professional services in the best way possible if you can if you if you promise those things and you achieve those things it doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a democrat or an independent you got a pretty good chance of being elected or reelected because you kept your promises on what you said you could do. And and that's that I've I've dealt with people in campaigns before and I've worked on campaigns and and there are people that you you sit you you're talking to and they just they can't break out because they just have a disagreeable personality or they they they just don't articulate well and and they don't smile and and and all of a sudden they take a polling of their popularity and they find out they're 20 points behind and they and some of them can be very wealthy and they say well we've got to run more television ads and the answer is no here's the deal you're like a product let's say you're like dog food right now nobody likes the dog food the dogs aren't eating it because the dog food tastes like dog crap what are we gonna do to are we gonna change the recipe so the dogs like it or are we just going to make more dog food because nobody's eating it and and when your dog food sucks you're not gonna get elected it doesn't matter if you spend another million dollars on political ads people don't like your dog food you've got a terrible personality people don't like you and now you want to spend another million dollars it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican or independent or or libertarian if you don't have an engaging personality and you know public service is real easy unless you don't like the public if you don't like the public that's a horrible job for you which I don't so I don't want your job stop asking me to take over stop not funny anymore nepotism is real many people suffer.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

So um so let's get out your phone let's do one quick thing and then we'll okay and then we'll call it a day. We're calling this our ground news segment welcome everyone one day this will be sponsored by ground news the idea is that you and I are both going to pick a topic that's happened in the last few weeks um we're not gonna discuss our opinions on it what we're gonna discuss is what your feed is telling you and what my feed is telling me so pick your pick your news your news source uh I think you should pick Fox I mean I think that's probably the most quote unquote conservative okay unless you can think of a more far conservative one.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

So you want me to you want me to go to Fox News?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah should I do BBC? You think I should do CNN? Yeah that'd be good yeah okay let me let me do BBC just to try to see let's let this whole transatlantic thing be gotcha okay so just go I guess just search um okay you want me to just pick a random story at the top of the feed I mean we're not gonna have the same story at the top of our feeds I would imagine I know that's that's what I thought would be beautiful about this. Uh why don't why don't you search Zelensky Zelensky? Yeah that's kind of old news isn't it uh not after Davos it isn't okay so and maybe we could pick a different one let's just see what that one brings up for us so is there anything are they saying anything post Davos about Zelensky?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Yes it's February well this is from February 28th so I don't no that's last year then okay well then um what how about you pick a topic then okay uh how about something near and dear to my heart which was the the instance of what happened at the church over the weekend in Minneapolis.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Yeah okay uh and and I'm I'm uh I'm I was very interested in that because as a free speech advocate and also religious freedom I was I was concerned because the it was being presented as a free speech event when it was actually a trespassing and and a religious interrupting religious services which is a civil right so when when is the when's the most recent one for you um I'm I'm looking I'm I am uh I've gotten into a a time warp now so hold on a minute let me get there that's okay you you pick you wanted me to get the Zelinsky stuff so gosh it was from uh it was from Pam Bondi the indication was that she's arrested two people after the the uh the so what's your headline the trespassing I'm trying to find it and I'm not having any luck so I've got the Fox News Pam Bondi one actually in front of me if you want me to read it for you it was the top the top the top headline on my feed was Bondi arrests two and uh and let me see here here here it is Bondi confirms two arrests after Minnesota church mob invasion and issues a warning the headline that's the headline okay so I went to the guardian my headline is two arrested will you just take a screenshot of your headline for me okay and send it to me yep uh my headline from the guardian is two arrested over anti-ICE protest at Minnesota church Bondi says uh huh so read yours one more time um it says hold on it says Bondi confirms two arrests after Minnesota church mob invasion issues warning so mine says anti-ICE protest yours says minnesota mob invasion church church mob church mob yeah invasion so so the difference is the the your your news feed is talking about ice when what we're this one's talking about the Bill of Rights and the and the First Amendment of religious freedom and also the ability of of uh you know you're you're talking about trespassing yeah you free speech rights are great but you're not allowed to trespass and and go give your your first amendment rights to somebody who has private property rights and the church of course does have rights just like everybody else what was your subheading the subheading uh Minnesota church protest leaders who vowed to disrupt business now claims otherwise mine says demonstrators alleged that one of church's pastors was acting field director of St. Paul Ice office uh yeah interesting isn't it so I think there's two things here that I I think I think like I agree with what you're saying but the fact the information that yours included and the information that mine included I think are both relevant pieces of information. I think bringing this ice angle into it contextualizes what is happening in Minnesota right now and contextualizes maybe some of the motivations behind what happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

Well the the story brings that in in the first line it does federal Authorities have arrested two anti-ICE agitators after a mob stormed a church service in St. Paul, Minnesota. Attorney General Pam Bondi announced Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

So mine's hold on. My first line: two people were arrested on Thursday morning in connection with a controversial protest at a Minnesota church on Sunday. Pam Bondi posted on social media.

unknown 1:06:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

So it's weird. They kind of they they kind of both flipped back and kind of evened each other out, maybe a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Yeah. Which the FBI, the second paragraph has it mentioned mentions the suspects, and then it says FBI director Cash Patel says the pair are charged with violating the FACE Act, which prohibits interfering with the exercise of religion at a place of worship. So, you know, it it that we're talking about the laws, and they're talking about your your feed is talking about, well, this is just a protest against ICE. When we're talking when the Fox feed is talking about the legal ramifications of violating someone else's religious rights and trespassing on property to disrupt those religious rights.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

Mine's talking about the pastor and his connection with ICE and then says the upset at a religious institution has caused widespread outrage among conservatives, and the Trump administration has pledged to bring charges.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

Yeah. So already you know, the and I'll tell you, I don't I don't even know. I don't even know if the if the actual this doesn't mention anything about the connection that I can see. Has that actually ever been verified that the pastor or someone at the church was involved in any way with ice?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

Well, so there's our our news versus opinion piece. If if I'm trusting the guardian as a news establishment and trusting this reporter to be doing good journalism, right, I should be able to trust that what I'm reading has been has been checked and fact checked. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Because people aren't gonna do what you and I would do. They're not gonna go and dive deeper and try to find another article, another piece of evidence that shows that this is correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

And and the lady who was arrested, uh Miss Armstrong, Armstrong continued, let's see here. The Armstrong continued to harass people connecting with it connected with the church as recently as Wednesday when she accused one of its pastors of having a conflict of interest due to working for immigration and customs enforcement. That hasn't been confirmed. Well, she said she don't know that Armstrong Armstrong claimed in a Facebook post that one of the church's pastors is a leader at U.S. immigration and customs enforcement. The demonstration is one of many throughout the Twin Cities in protest of the federal government search. There's been no confirmation. So is this all just targeting a church that may or may not have any any indication of being influenced or in in in in any way related to ICE? I mean, I would think that you'd do that, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you confirm that before you go and disrupt a religious service? But it doesn't appear that they did. And this report doesn't say anything about we've independently confirmed that the pastor or a member of the congregation may have been involved with ICE.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Right. Mine doesn't have any link linking that. When I do another post, when I do another uh search just for his name, I pull up a Newsweek article. Um, that Newsweek article only links me to ICE's website. It doesn't link me to any sort of verification that David Easterwood. Um now, apparently David Easterwood does lead the immigration and customs enforcement field office in St. Paul. Um, so that's what Newsweek is saying. But like, you know, this is an example. Like, you know, people like you and people like me, yeah, whatever that means, are not sitting here and digesting this together. We are getting what we've got. And you would have said, if you read that, you would have said, well, that's not verified. What is that? A Facebook post? What does that mean? And then you would have moved on.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

I I think I think that somewhere they would have said that that the person who organized this alleged alleges that that a member of the church is involved with immigration and custom enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

And so let's say he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Then they let's say he is, just and then you'd say something to the effect of Fox News has not been able to verify, or Fox News has confirmed. Or I think that would have been the appropriate.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

But but it's not in the Yeah, you would think also that if he wasn't involved, that that would have been one of the first things he said in his interviews. Or that would have been one of the first things that any sort of press release would have acknowledged.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

From the from the church?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:28

From any any angle. I think the church, yeah. I mean, if if that's if that's something they wanted to say, like to give more, to give more fodder, I guess, for one side, they could say he actually isn't involved.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

If there if there is or there isn't, you're you're expecting the victims of what is a trespassing and a disruption of a First Amendment right religious church ceremony. You're you're having them defend themselves against the intruders who trespassed and disrupted. Oh, I'm saying to First Amendment right.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

See, it's two different issues. Yeah, I think that's the thing. Yeah, I think it is. I think your side is saying, you know, objectively speaking, this was incorrect. My side is almost wanting me to rationalize it in my head as, oh, well, this is part of this ice, this is part of ice protest. There's isn't mention of civil rights here. There isn't mention of so it's it just proves like so. If we were if we were to write a new headline that is somewhere between these two, how would we, if it was just headline and subheadline, what would we what would we come up with? I think our headline would probably be very similar to the two that we've read. It just wouldn't probably include ice, or would it?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

It may not. It may not. Because if you if you just looked at this as an incident where, and this has happened before, I mean, the the church being church services being disrupted is not unusual by different groups, and and I think if you just hit it as a Minneapolis church, or two arrested after disrupting Minneapolis church services, federal charges pending. Does it have anything to do with ice? I don't know. I can't really tell. Makes me think of the only thing, only thing it has to do with ice is the person who organized it said it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Right. Can we do one more one more uh one more search just to humor me? Okay. Let's go back to July 2025. I'm gonna search for Charlottesville.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

Because I'm in 2025? Yeah, around July. So I mean just search Charlottesville, I'm sure. I'm thinking of when this when this very similar thing happened in Charlottesville when somebody disrupted a church service.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:15

I'm seeing things from 2018 and 2024.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's um I thought there was another something that happened in 25. Because I'm I'm not thinking of the the so there was the white supremacist rally that was in Charlottesville, obviously. That and that was in 2017. Um, but then there was wasn't there a Charlottesville church service that was interrupted by a man?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:41

Um I I I don't see anything. I see uh I see something from 2018. I don't Well, you know, there's there's the old one about the very fine people that was completely debunked from the presidential campaign. Do we want to do that one?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

That was that was Charlottesville, but that was 2017.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Yeah, that was back in a long time ago. But then but it came back in the campaign, this this most recent campaign.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

How was that debunked?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:17

Well, the the uh the video was uh changed and the the quote was not saying that there the uh that there was a that he was supporting any of the groups that were anti free speech or or or in any way associated with with supporting them. The urban legend that was inaccurate.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

I mean he did say that though.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:59

I'll send you the link. That is a quote.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:01

He did say that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

But it was taken, it was it was taken completely out of context. I've seen that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

I watched the whole video.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

Well, you you but there you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Sent me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

Yeah, but I mean I watched see, but then like, and then I worry that then it's gonna come to a point when AI is so advanced now that I can say to you, like, I watched that whole interview and I listened to everything he said with my own eyes and my own ears. And then eventually there's gonna be eventually there'll be an argument of, oh no, that was tailored.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Here's the way this was debunked. Earlier this year, this is back in 24, left-leaning fact-checking website Snopes acknowledged that Trump never called neo-Nazis very fine people during his press conference following the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally in 2017.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

Yeah, he didn't say that. I didn't say that he said that. What he did say is there are fine people on both sides.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

And that's concerning.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:55

Who were the who were the two sides of that argument?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

And he said after that, he said, I'm not talking about the white supremacists.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Then who is he talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

He was talking about the people that were trying to keep statues up instead of destroying our history. That's what he was referring to. Well, I sent you the story, you can read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Okay, but anyway, I the reason I was thinking is because um it was a similar, and maybe I I'll I'll go back and figure out what I was thinking of. I thought there was a man that interrupted a church service in Charlottesville uh like last summer, and he assaulted like seven people.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

Um, and I just would be curious to see what assaulted people or gun out.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:37

Is that the one that's he did nobody died, but people were assaulted. Um but it was it was like a similar, a similar argument of like, what are we actually fighting about here?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:46

Are we fighting about what his intentions were, or are we fighting about the fact that he was breaking the law by interrupting people's right to worship the sad part about it is that we've had instances where church services have been interrupted and people have been killed. And and if you were if you were in a certain part of the country and if you got up and started making movements like that, there could be a very dangerous situation for you because in certain parts of the country, that kind of disruption of a church service would probably indicate a very substantial danger to someone's life.

unknown 1:18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

And the churches are very in in my part of the world, they are they are encouraging people to carry firearms because churches have been a target. And if this would have happened in Oklahoma City, then there would be a good chance those people may not have made it out unless they were in an ambulance. And that's the that's the problem. I mean, even in the in the Minneapolis, some of the people were saying, Why are these police officers carrying firearms and why are they having real bullets? Well, they're they're enforcing the law, and they have the the requirements of enforcing the law. And they they can they can use those firearms and they can use their their authority to effect the enforcement of the law. And it doesn't matter if it's a ICE officer in Minneapolis or if it's a police officer Oklahoma City. If if you I think it matters.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Yeah, I I think I think it's I was talking about this with a friend of mine after our conversation last week because there's so much about this the ICE conversation, and we won't uh once I'm done, we will stop talking about this, but there's so much about this ICE conversation that I can understand from where where I think you stand on it. But I think I just really want there to be a proportionate response to what's happening. And I just I have a lot of fear um and a lot of worry for the people of my country that are facing just a really scary time. Uh, people that may not look like me and may not speak like me. And I can imagine that it's just really, really terrifying for a lot of people right now. And I think that's something that you and I can agree on. I think whether, you know, no matter how you feel about the situation, I think the idea of your life changing drastically or your life ending very drastically, uh, very tragically is a scary thing. It's very, very scary. And I just I think there is a better way, and I wish we could find a better way to enforce the laws.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

There is a much better way, and and the problem is that don't victim blame, please. Barack Obama did a very similar thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:18

Yeah, he did more, and nobody said anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:20

And and exactly. In fact, CNN would go on ride-alongs to watch the enforcement of the law, but that was before we had sanctuary cities, so I think it's more about the hatred against Donald Trump metastasizing than it is about enforcement of the laws, because for the longest time the the laws were enforced. But when you change, when you change to a sanctuary city where no one is kept for the ICE department to pick them up and they let them out after they have violated the laws of the United States, then the ICE agents are required by statute to go and get them. And that's what causes the problem. The police department's releasing those people. We're not in Oklahoma City and Edmund, we're not a sanctuary city. If you're arrested and you have any outstanding warrants for your arrest, the ICE detainer keeps you in custody until ICE can pick you up and then you're deported as could to comply with the law. So it's yeah, I feel that way. If we also had all of the cities doing the same thing to be able to ensure that the ICE agents were able to perform their duties, and the people who were arrested for violating the laws were kept in jail so they would be able to be picked up and deported. That would that would be the perfect solution. And that's what happened during the Obama administration.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Yeah, and I'm not I'm not denying that. That's the thing. I I'm not about to blanket statement and say, like, well, it's okay when Barack Obama does it, but it's not okay when Donald Trump does it. I I I'm not in any way, shape, or form saying that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

And that's the sad part about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:03

But then, like, but then there's, and then, and then I'll shut up, I swear. But then there's like, you know, the stories that I'm getting that my feed is giving me are the stories of you know, a five-year-old boy in Minnesota who is detained outside of his house. And this little five-year-old like was on his way to school, or arriving home from school and was detained by ice. Like, but again, like the same with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

Like, if I were hold on, part of the story. Part of the story.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:31

What was the rest of the story?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:33

Well, I haven't, I haven't see, that's what I'm saying. That's the headline. That's the headline.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:36

I can I can I can speculate. I think I I think I can probably tell you the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:41

I bet you can. And I think you, assuming you could, is just as problematic.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:45

I would predict that his parents violated the laws of the United States on immigration, and either one or both of them was arrested. When he came home from school, the reason ICE took him was because they can't put him in a jail with his parents because they're going to be deported. The child has to go into child protective services so that the child won't be abused or left on the streets because we have to care for the children. He will probably be associated with his parents when they are sent back. But in the meantime, the story sounds horrible. But the rest of the story, I'll bet you probably tracks pretty clearly with what I explained there. Can I read the first line? And that's the problem. What's that?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:36

Well, I'll read the first line. Uh, Mark Prokosh, an attorney representing the family, said that they had an active asylum case and shared paperwork showing the father and son had arrived in the U.S. at a port of entry, meaning an official crossing point. That's the first line. I think it's just as harmful for me to make assumptions as it is for you to make assumptions. You know, like but I I I I would like to think that that in these situations that it is the story of we're trying to protect this child. There's more to this story, the family is is in a difficult position.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:13

But I think remember what you just said, what you read there? Did it say that he was he was allowed legal entry into the United States, or that did he arrive at a point that he could enter the United States?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:26

But see, I'm just coming from the perspective of I just think this splitting of hairs is a problem. I think what it sounds like to me is there's an asylum case of people who are seeking asylum. And in that case, I think we need to err on the side of being compassionate and allowing people to have a life that they want and that they deserve. It's not easy to seek asylum. That's not an easy process.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

Oh, I know I know, but it's also abused.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

And who gives a shit? If we've got enough space and enough time and enough care to give people a new chance, I think that's more of the Christian side of things than not, you know. I just think people are probably more good than they are bad. That's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:13

I I understand the way you feel, and I think everybody feels that way. But sometimes people that get across the border aren't as good, and they end up in situations where people have died or have been murdered, and that's the problem. But we have to be very careful about the people that we bring into our country. I mean, I don't think that the folks who lost a daughter who was brutally murdered, and and other people who have been brutally murdered by illegally entrances by immigrants who violated the law, I can't I can't comfort those folks because they have seen a system that was abused and they lost a loved one and it destroyed a family and it destroyed their lives. So we had I want to be as friendly and as accommodating as I can for everybody, but there is a legal system. And when you talk about how the United States was built with immigrants, that's correct. Legal immigrants. And those immigrants came for opportunities. They didn't come to come and and and be part of an issue that would cause a detriment to our finances. They came to be contributors and to assimilate. And that's what that's what I think the immigration policy should focus on.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:32

And I I just I I'm of I think when it comes to individual stories.

unknown 1:27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:43

I think you and I are being fed individual stories that feed our narrative. And I think it is helpful to certain people to make us feel afraid of the other. And I think every time I start to feel Anything like that. I just wonder who is benefiting from because I think I think it's a tale as old as time where we can see the big bad things happening in the world and find a way to blame blame it on a group of one group of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

I think that is no, I'm I'm not blaming one group of people. I'm blaming individuals. But they're all immigrants. Individuals are doing bad things. It's the individual, it's not a group of people. I would I would never I would never paint a broad brush on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:35

No, but I what I'm saying is that I think it is helpful for the administration and for the this 24-hour news monster. I think it's it's very helpful to get people angry at a certain group or to blame a lot of heartbreak and a lot of bad bad things and crimes on a specific group. And I think if you were to go ask just a normal average Joe out in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma, who are you angry at politically? Who is the reason that your taxes aren't going where you think they are, or who's the reason that you don't have this or don't have that? I mean, this is something, it's a political tool that's been used for a very long time. And um and yeah, I just worry about what that rhetoric does and how it trickles down and how it makes people act and treat each other, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:25

Yeah, and and rhetoric is one thing, but the reality is the issue as well.

unknown 1:29:30

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:32

And you know, I I don't like broad brushes because I don't like it when people say that, you know, all politicians are bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

Well, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

All cops are bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:43

I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:44

So that's the thing. You know, or all lawyers are bad. Because I know I know a lot of I know a lot of those folks. And the and and there's a there's a whole lot more good than there are bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:57

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:59

Well done.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:06

Okay. Well, we don't have time for a music segment because you wouldn't shut up. So that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:11

We took too much time.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:12

We're done.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:14

Let me read your credits and then I'll let you go. I act like you're coming to my podcast. This is ours.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:21

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:22

Between the Steins is recorded from Oklahoma and London. It is written and produced by Patty. Administrative support and wrangling of schedules is provided also by Patty. Our editor is Brooks Sherman.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:33

Brooks, way to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

Our brand is brought to life by Ben Azuga.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:38

Way to go, Benny.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:41

Oh god. Special thanks to Larry.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:43

I call him Ben. I call him Ben.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:45

I hope so. Uh, special thanks to Larry for connecting to Wi-Fi and showing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:50

Yes, and thanks to Patty. And I'm so proud to be the producer of Patty.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:54

And producer Patty. We make it every single time. Uh, and if you liked, if you liked what you heard and what you watched, give us a drop us an email. Uh, tell a friend, or I don't know, tell your dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:08

Give us a thumbs up.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:09

Tell your dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:12

Smash that subscribe button. Anyway, we will see you next time from opposite sides of the Atlantic. Uh, this is the last of our our three, our first drop of three episodes. We dropped three episodes the first Sunday of the month. We will see you next month, everybody. Thanks for thanks for being here, Doug. This has been fun so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:29

Thanks so much. I love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:30

I love you too. I will see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:33

You got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

Okay, bye.