Between the Steins
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Between the Steins
The Generational Pendulum - Are We Just a Response to Our Parents?
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Does every generation consciously react against the one before it, or is it more subconscious than we think?
In this episode we explore the generational pendulum: the social, political, emotional and spiritual patterns that ripple from one generation to the next. From grandma and grandpa, to Larry, to Patty. We trace the micro and macro trends we’ve noticed in our own family, unpacking the learned behaviours, beliefs and values that get passed down, pushed back against, or quietly absorbed without us even noticing.
Then our one-day-sponsored-by Ground News segment where we turn to the news as it happens. Please note that at the time of recording (February 2026), the conflict in Iran was beginning to escalate.
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Between the Steins is a father-daughter podcast; real talk across the ocean and the aisle.
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Welcome back to Between the Steins, everyone. This is my dad. His name is Larry Stein. And I'm Patty. Do you want to tell him what we talked about today? God, I'm tired of you.
SPEAKER_00What what happens between generations? Why do people change? And and and is it just historic? Is it environmental or is it post-environmental? We talk about it trying to figure out why people change and how they change.
SPEAKER_02On this week's episode. This month's episode.
SPEAKER_03Okay, enjoy your episode. Bye. Love you.
SPEAKER_00Love you too. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03Well, today I thought we would talk about um the generational pendulum.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03And how, you know, does every generation consciously react against the one before it, or is it more of a subconscious thing? We're talking socially, politically, emotionally, maybe spiritually. And I was thinking we could talk through like the micro and macro trends that we've noticed generationally, from like my grandma and grandpa to you, and then to me, and just kind of chat through it. And then um we can do so. We can do a little firstly, quickly, how is the weather? Let's start there.
SPEAKER_00Okay. How is the weather? Weather, it's it's up and down. Whenever, whenever it's it's warm, unseasonably warm, which for Oklahoma, what's unseasonably warm? Yeah. I mean we had 80 degrees. We had 80 degrees earlier this week, and now it's down to 42, gonna be up to 78. I mean, it's a typical 30 degree swing, and it just does, it just depends on is it going lower or is it going higher? I mean, yesterday was a beautiful day. Beautiful day.
SPEAKER_03I know the sun came out for like five seconds. Last night we had the kind of wind that I thought we were gonna have a tornado. It was insane. It was actually insane. Like the house was shaking, and I was like, okay, this is an ideal.
SPEAKER_00Incredible. Good heavens. Okay.
SPEAKER_03So, okay, so I'll set our timer. We'll talk generational. I'll make sure you get out on the phone.
SPEAKER_00Do you think we can do it in 30?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Well, we always do our timers on 30, and then we'll do a little bit of um that'll give us enough time to do maybe five minutes on a headline and then okay, great, great, great, great. Okay, sick. Now let's so um so generational pendulum thoughts. So what do you think? The I guess my intro question for you is like, do you think every generational every generation consciously reacts, or do you think it's a subconscious thing?
SPEAKER_00I I I don't I I I think they react on some things, but I think a lot of it is the the issue of the foundational structure of a family. Because it at least in the United States, um you we we hear all the time in a place like Oklahoma, a very conservative state. And those kids, those children of people that are raised in a conservative state, I think that they have more of a conservative perspective. It may not be exactly like their parents, but the depending on how you're raised, I think that that really makes you probably what you are. And I hearken back to the the amazing story that was done on PBS, where they they went from seven to twelve to fourteen to twenty one. And this the the slogan or the the adage, the the moniker was, show me the boy at seven, I'll show you the man at 21. And and that those first formative years, if you grow up. And it's it's very similar to what happens with what they call um adverse childhood experiences, aces. If if you're in a household where people love you, people support you, people go to your soccer games, go to your baseball games, your softball games, some where you where you have camaraderie, where you sit at the table and you have dinner at night, that foundation is will change your life so much more dramatically than someone who may not have a family member at home, may grow up in a place where their parents are one of them could be in jail, one of them may have been arrested, one of them may have been murdered. Those those adverse childhood experiences they add up. When you get to four or five or six or seven, the child at seven who experiences all those things, when they get to be 21, they're the overarching influence on the rest of their life.
SPEAKER_03What do you think is like the clearest example of maybe the contrary of that? What do you think is the clearest example of so I'm thinking like from your parents' generation? What did you what did you experience in your childhood, I guess, from them that you knew you wanted to take forward? And maybe what are some things that you experienced that like you decided you didn't want to take forward?
SPEAKER_00I I I think the things that that continue to influence my life are to try and save save things. Save save time, save money, save effort, try to do everything as efficiently as you can. And that quality matters, but if you're if you're trying to get something done, sometimes you have to sacrifice quality in order to accomplish something that has to be accomplished.
SPEAKER_03Do you think that's saving time, saving money? Do you think that's like a direct a direct line from being raised by a generation that had to sacrifice so much?
SPEAKER_00And suffered through the the Great Depression.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Totally. Uh there are there are there are certain events that that are your BC and AD events, your pre-Columbian, post-Columbian. And and every and yeah, if and thankfully, every generation usually experiences those. And those are the most amazing things because they can transform transform people forever and ever. I mean, the birth of Jesus, what did it do? It created a religious movement that's continuing to be one that influences people around the world in a very positive way. And and then, you know, there are other events, World War II, you and we both know that the the influence and the the changes, the dramatic changes that happened because of that are still impacting us today.
SPEAKER_03I think something that blew my mind when I figured it out was I always wondered why your mom loved Golden Corral so much.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I didn't understand it. And we ended up going to Golden Corral after her funeral, and it was like a whole party. And I remember thinking like, because Golden Corral isn't like the so for UK listeners, it's like a buffet place. So you can get anything you want. You could have fried chicken next to like green jello and then soft serve.
SPEAKER_00Roast beef.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, yes, of course, roast beef, brisket, uh, steak, pork ribs.
SPEAKER_00Uh, the and and I'm just focusing on the protein because I love protein. I like and then you'd have roasted chicken and and and and then you and then after that, and that's the thing. I mean, it it's and for I don't know the comparison rate, but maybe maybe 15 pounds. 15 pounds. You could go at lunch and eat all afternoon from from the salad to all different meats, prepare however you want a roast that they would slow they would carve for you, salads uh and and then and then vegetables. You can make your own salad. But do you you know the the the problem is that so many people want to make sure they get their money's worth. So your your plate is yeah, or or or the best way to do that is after you finish your first plate, you kind of shove it over to the side and said, Well, I guess I'll go get something to eat, and you try to act innocent, and you and you go over to the buffet with the plate saying, Oh, there's a buffet. Well, I'll just try. And then you've already had one plate, but now you're now you're loading up on all the stuff that was really good. The the the pot roast that melts in your mouth with the brown gravy that loaded mashed potatoes, the spliced beef, the chicken. I think I'm ready to go there for something to eat.
SPEAKER_03I think if you don't mind, uh well, so we went there after her funeral. We used to go there with her quite a bit. And I remember kind of thinking, like, this isn't like the nicest establishment. I don't understand why she loves going here so much. And then as I got older, I recognized the draw like the direct line between the generation that lived through the Great Depression and World War II, particularly British women, British. She was a British woman. Uh-oh.
unknownWhat are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Okay. I wanted to make my head the same size as yours.
SPEAKER_02Can you tilt it down a sec? Can you is that possible? Oh my gosh, there it is.
SPEAKER_00Hey, that worked perfect, great. I have my official cattleman's vest on.
SPEAKER_03One day this podcast will be sponsored by Cattlemans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but that'd be nice. The Oklahoma Cattleman's Association.
SPEAKER_03Oh, not the restaurant, sorry.
SPEAKER_00We're having a parade tomorrow, St. Paddy's Day parade in in Cowtown in the stockyard. So that'd be fun.
SPEAKER_03That's what I call London. Um there's actually a cattleman's restaurant in Oklahoma City and a cattleman's restaurant in a place in England called Harrogate. And I think I'm gonna see if both of them want to partner. We'd make them sister, sister restaurants.
SPEAKER_00Sister stakes.
SPEAKER_02Sister stakes.
SPEAKER_03I think it'd be great. Anyway, so I didn't recognize this direct line between an entire generation that has lived through the Great Depression and World War II.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Limitations. And then this little English woman who comes to America and has this opportunity to walk into a place where everything is available and in abundance. I remember the the day that that clicked and how much it blew my mind that, you know, we are just responses to what we come from. And particularly like with our parents, then I think sometimes, like you said, I think we can want to emulate what we come from and what our parents showed us. But then at the same time, there's other situations where I think entire generations will go the complete opposite end of that and and flip that pendulum hard the other direction. So I'm thinking like, you know, the the summer of love. Like that was such a clock this week.
SPEAKER_00Are you talking about 1969?
SPEAKER_03Of course, of course, Sam.
SPEAKER_00Of course, of course, it was wonderful.
SPEAKER_03It was a wonderful time, lots of love, lots of kissing, lots of things.
SPEAKER_00Lots of other things, and lots of let's not let's not forget the music.
SPEAKER_03And the the bugs. Um so and then, like, you know, and then I think right now we're seeing we're seeing a conservative movement that is a response to that other thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's uh and and but you're right. I mean, and and every generation has to create its own thing. Sadly, no generation will be able to create music as good as the generation that I lived in with rock and roll, and and all of that amazing music, but but you can try. And and and and and in 50 years when people are still listening to Steely Dan and you know uh Donald Fagan. The Beatles, yes, Donald Fagan. All of those things.
SPEAKER_03You don't get to you don't get to claim the Beatles.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes, we do, yes, we do. And by the way, it's no longer a boomer generation, it's the Jones generation.
SPEAKER_03Okay, that's not good for a branding.
SPEAKER_00Jones? The Jones from 54 to 65, I think. It's a little group, it's everybody has to be designated something, and they've decided that the new generation is the Jones generation.
SPEAKER_03That's not how that works.
SPEAKER_00You guys are boomers because because you took everybody from like 48 to 63, and you said that's the boomers? Yeah, that's that's how I'm still a millennial. It doesn't make much sense to me either. I understand how many years are the millennials?
SPEAKER_03It's like a 20-year, it's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00That's just that's that well, that's too long. Well, you gotta everybody's gonna slice and dice and make up their own little parts, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh you're always in my eyes.
SPEAKER_00And they'll they'll have the the pre-Jones, and then the post-Jones, and then they'll have post Malone. It's all all those different things.
SPEAKER_04Do you know who that is?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the post-malone. You have to have a tattoo all over your face and things.
SPEAKER_03But other than that, wow, we should get matching face tattoos. Um what do you think what do you think my generation is doing either with or against the influence of your generation? Like, how do you think I we can talk about this just individually, microly, or we could talk about it macro. How do you think I'm responding to your generation? Politically, socially.
SPEAKER_00I I I I think that uh it it one of my heroes is Churchill. I and I and I think that he's that the the prediction and and and throughout history, I mean you you can go back to ancient Greece and and they're saying, what's up with these kids today? You know, if you're if you're not a liberal by the time you're 20 and a conservative, then you don't have any heart. And if you if you're not a conservative by the time you're 40, you don't have any brain. I mean, that it's sooner or later you realize that there's a change in life. And if you if you try to attempt to do everything you can for everybody out of the goodness of your heart, you won't have any heart left. And sooner or later you have to look at things and say, okay, how are you gonna fix that? Because I can't I can't fix that for you. And if you've created the situation that in the fix you're in, did I did I do that, or was that your responsibility?
SPEAKER_03So you think my generation is at the moment uh too liberal?
SPEAKER_00No, I I didn't say that. I just say they just believe in different things. And and sooner, sooner or later there'll be a reality check. And and everybody will change. I mean, it the only inevitable thing is change. And and if you're if you're young or you're old, everything changes at a certain period of time. You're you'll get to a point where you say, you know what? I'm done. I I don't care what people think anymore. I'm just gonna start telling them what I think. And I know people like that. They've got money, they've got respect, and they don't care what you think. And they will say the most inopportune things and sometimes things that make you really angry at them, but they're telling you the truth.
SPEAKER_03Like, are you that way?
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not. I I don't I don't feel like I can, you know, I can I can express to you the facts. If you want to talk about my job, I'll be happy to provide you the facts. You may not like them, but those are the facts. And when I'm dealing with people, I deal, yeah. When you're younger, you may have a huge amount of friends, but when you get older, you condense that down. And you have people, and it it it's I think the Wall Street Journal called it the plus generation. People like us, plus people like us, people live in a neighborhood where they're going to be with a bunch of other people that can afford that same house. Chances are they make within a certain bandwidth of money because they're in a house with a mortgage and everybody else is in the houses with a mortgage, and they all may make the same amount of money, and they may have the same money, they may be at the same person stage of their life where they're having their first child or their second child. But that if you if you categorize a neighborhood, it's like this organism that's based on all sorts of demographics. They're gonna probably vote the same way, the majority way of the area, they're gonna have the same income level, they're gonna have the same number of kids, or they're gonna be in a different age bracket, a different strata. You have young people here, and then you have medium people with kids that are getting into out of high school, and then you have people that don't have any kids left, they're they've already left. So they're retired or they're close to retirement, and they just want to have a nice little neighborhood to live in. And it's it's three or four different strata, but it's people like us. They all they all really kind of believe in the same thing. And and then, and then somebody in there will put up an American flag. And then somebody say, you know, I don't like that. And then somebody will put uh during a campaign season, they'll put a sign for the the what somebody says is the worst possible candidate they've ever heard of. And right across the street from somebody who's in the same strata, same neighborhood, same income level, same, they grew up the same way, maybe all here, and they just disagree on who should be a candidate or who should be the winner of the next campaign, or they'll put up something during Christmas, you know, put the Christ back in Christmas, or something like that that causes attention because they all have different opinions. And some people have have religious conversions at different parts of their life, and that's fine. And then they become very religious and they'll put up crosses on their yards, things like that, good good crosses, and and trying to trying to appeal to the to the not burning, not burning ones, not burning ones. Exactly. No, no, lights, lights, lights, not flames, and and and that's wonderful. And then Easter, and we're coming up, you know, the the Easter is just one of those wonderful times. And and when you and and people start putting things on their yards, and some people are offended, some you know, how do you be how can you be offended by that? But some people could be, and and they may go over to say, you know, I really don't like that. Well, you know what? Get off my lawn. You don't have to approve my wall decorations or my yard decorations.
SPEAKER_03I mean, speaking of then, in in that space, I think the word snowflake probably comes up quite a bit when our generations speak about one another. Do you think that is a weird overcorrection that maybe my generation has it's it's something it's just like everything else.
SPEAKER_00Be careful of broad brushes, because I know some people like that. And I've I've I've talked to them, spent a lot of time with them, and and they're they're really they some really don't have any compass on where they want to go or what they believe in. And it's like it's it's like it's like Golden Corral. Life for them is just this huge buffet. And today I like this, today I don't like this, today I'll have jello, I think I'll have a cheesecake. They they they they don't they don't really care about those things, they just think everything's wonderful. And sooner or later you you have to discern what's what's good for society as a whole and what's good for you as a whole. And and and without without some sort of a principal guidance mechanism, they they sometimes can get lost. Some of those folks can get lost.
SPEAKER_03What do you think your parents' generation thought of your generation, broadstroke-wise?
SPEAKER_00Broadstroke, I'm sure they they thought, what are you what are you gonna do for the you can't is that it that's a job?
SPEAKER_03You what it you I feel a very similar vibe from your generation on our generation broadstroke in terms of this, like content creation, you talk out loud as a job in front of a camera?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what you work on your phone, but then but then but they wouldn't they didn't they didn't think of a a whit about uh Edward R. Murrow broadcasting from London during World War II and thinking, wow, I wish I was him. I mean this is just a this is just the democratization, yeah, the democratization of communication. And and in in in in 50 years, they'll say, gosh, you remember when they used to do that on an internet line? Wow, we didn't think it's so much better now with just the wireless dev, it's great.
SPEAKER_02It's all over, it's free for everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I know yeah, yeah, everybody, everybody wonders. I I think I think the I think the big difference between now and 60 years ago or 50 years ago is there appears to be sadly more people that are are accommodating violent behavior against others. If I have a disagreement with somebody about an issue, then we have a discussion and We go on our merry way. Some people if you're not agreeing with them, then they have to do everything they can to hurt you. And that's that's disturbing. Who people in the streets. That's that's that's unacceptable. What happened in New York City? A radicalized person tries to blow up people who are protesting.
SPEAKER_03Do you think that's something that's systemic? Or do you think that is No, it's not systemic.
SPEAKER_00It is episodic, but tragically, the media, as we talked about before, they don't they don't want to talk about, oh, we found a puppy. Oh, oh, this this person's life was saved by a wonderful good Samaritan. No, they they want to say, where's the controversy? Where's the where's the people who are hating each other? Where's the people that are hitting each other? How do let's get that? That's that's what that's what America is, right? People just fighting each other and throwing uh you know IEDs and things like that, burning down synagogues or trying to do whatever they can with rifles, killing people. That's that's the day, you know, if I disagree with somebody, I'm not gonna go take a gun and shoot them. That's not what life is about. If I disagree with you, I respect your opinion and I disagree with it. That doesn't mean you have the right to come after me and beat me up because I disagree with you. And it doesn't mean you have the right to shoot to brandish a firearm and shoot me. It means that we disagree. And it uses potentially more civil.
SPEAKER_03Do you think it is that, or do you think it's just that the media is feeding you this to make you feel like it's happening more often?
SPEAKER_00I think it's I think it's both. But I think that the media is fanning the flames of that discourse and trying to make the divisions greater than they are. I got to, I have a dear friend who's a United States congressman, Frank Lucas. He's a he's a wonderful fellow, wonderful fellow. Shout out, Frank Lucas. And I had the I had the privilege of introducing him at the downtown rotary club, Club 29, one of the largest rotary clubs in the world. And and I express I expressed he's he's a longtime Republican. I helped him get elected. And I expressed to everybody there, I said, you know, I a quote from George and I was the guy came up to him when he was campaigning, former governor, great governor, guy, great guy, Democrat, wonderful guy, and he said to the governor, you're nothing but a professional politician. And the governor said, How else would you want me to be? Do you want me to be a professional knowing where I can spend money to help the state that I love? Do you do you want me to be a professional in every way of being able to know the law and being able to be accommodating to people who disagree with me so I can get good things done for our state? Do you not want me to be do you want a professional deciding where your taxpayer monies are spent properly and appropriately? And then I said, you know, the the media is presenting that we have a great division in society in the United States. Do we? I think I think most people, when they see the divided stuff at the national level, they they scratch their head and say, How does this happen? Because I think we all want the same thing. We want a safe country. We want to have the government help us when we need it and leave us alone when they don't, when we don't want them there. We want to have good schools, good roads, we want to have all the good things. And that's it.
SPEAKER_03Will you do this for me real fast? This is a this is perfect. This just means yes.
SPEAKER_02I agree.
SPEAKER_00And and and and does the division between political parties matter when I've got a road that needs to be fixed? Nope. Yeah, you know, I have a job, a very important job, of being able to fund schools. I don't base my values of property that I have to set by statute and then collect that little teeny fractional amount to make all the services happen that people demand. I don't do that because somebody's a Democrat or a Republican, an independent or man or a woman or whatever. I do that because the law treats everybody the same. And and and I'm I'm fearful that people think, you know, like yesterday, the story, headline story, what was it? Yesterday.
SPEAKER_03Ooh, which one?
SPEAKER_00Oh, the Heggseth story, did you see that? Pete Heggseth spending $9 billion on steak and lobster. Oh, I didn't see that. So did Joe Biden, so did Barack Obama, so did Jordan. Yeah, those are special meals for special troops that are in harm's way. But that's the story that they're coming out. And then the other folks are saying, well, you know, the problem is that every government has to spend all of that money at the end of the year. Because if you don't spend the money, then you're not going to get that same budget request next year. You know what? That doesn't happen. You know, if that's what you think the federal government does, then fix it. But at the local level, that's not what happens in some places. I can't say everywhere, but in a in a balanced budget state like Oklahoma, we don't get to spend all of our money so we'll get more money now. No, you es you have to create an estimate of needs. And I can't buy a pencil without allocating funds to pick to buy a pencil.
SPEAKER_03I think you're held to a higher standard than the defense budget.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And the and the closer the government is to you, the more efficient it is. It has to be because when you get money into the federal government, you don't know where the heck it's going sometimes.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, exactly. I think the federal government is not held to nearly the same standard that you are at a smaller level when it comes to these trillion dollar budgets that are being used to wage war. And I think that that is so crazy.
SPEAKER_00It's very complicated, but you know, that that that story of of Pete Hagseth was really just a slam job.
SPEAKER_03It's just noise, and I don't, I I'm not interested in it. That that's not the kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00See, see, and and that's that's the difference between you and every and and uh and a somebody else who's looking at it and saying, oh my god, we got to get rid of Pete Hagseth. Look at the mil look at the waste in the military.
SPEAKER_03There's plenty of other reasons I'd like to get rid of that man.
SPEAKER_00Lobster and steak? That's that's just crazy. Nine billion dollars. You know how much money we spend to feed our troops?
SPEAKER_03Everybody knows what that means. Everybody knows what the the lobster and steak dinner means. So I think I'm I'm more upset about what's happening after that meal instead of the fact that money's being spent on that meal. What's another billion dollars? Nothing matters, it's all fake. The amount of money that's being spent right now. Well, and we'll talk about this with the headline uh segment quickly, but like you know, that's it's it's noise. It's noise to try to piss off people that aren't smart enough to look into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it it it yeah, it and then uh the if you're looking at what happens or what could happen you're you're within range.
SPEAKER_03I'm not within four thousand kilometers.
SPEAKER_00It's anaballistic, it goes into the atmosphere and comes down wherever they want it.
SPEAKER_03Ballistics are even slower in rate range.
SPEAKER_00You'll come it can come, it can ballistics are 2,000 kilometers.
SPEAKER_03That's that's just fact. Ballistics don't go further than 4,000 kilometers, and ballistics don't go further than two. Let's jump in. That's our time anyway. Let's jump in. I want to talk about Iran.
SPEAKER_00Okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Um go ahead. I think we should pull up headlines and then discuss it.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna do the guardian. And I say maybe uh something about Iran that has happened in the last 24 hours, maybe.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, there they're tragically a malfunction of a tanker refueling jets has apparently caused some problems, and there were some deaths associated with that, sadly.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah. Um, I've also got one about Heg Seth um talking about the Strait of Hormuz disruption.
SPEAKER_00The the what destruction?
SPEAKER_03The Strait of Hormuz. How do I sell it? Say that, sorry. It's Hormuz, Straits of Hormuz. I'm sorry. Yeah, I think I've only read it. I don't think I've said it out loud.
SPEAKER_00Uh it it is, it is a there are some mines that have been put there. It is a huge body of water, and and they will attempt to do everything they can to get rid of those those mines that can cause the straits to be it's not it's not the first time we've had to worry about the Straits of Hormuz. We've been involved in that previously because of the reliance on petroleum. But you know, it it's it's like the we were talking about the pendulum swinging. Okay, the pendulum swinging from 20% of the world's oil coming from the the Straits of Hormuz, coming through the Straits of Hormuz, and and we're trying to figure out the best way of being able to accommodate that. But what happens as the pendulum swings? Domestic production in Venezuela, in the United States, in Canada, and then a brand new decision for a brand new uh gasoline refinery, the first one in what 60 years, 70 years being able to be built in the United States to increase the refining capacity so we can have more of a stable supply of fuels for diesel, jet fuel, and gasoline. That's that's exciting. It's going to be a huge advantage to the United States.
SPEAKER_03I don't think anything about this war is exciting.
SPEAKER_00The the exciting part about this war, the best part is that we're we're eliminating a terrorist state that has been around for 47 years and has been killing world citizens. No, we didn't create them, they created themselves. It was when Jimmy Carter said we've got to get rid of the king, the king left, and Islamic extremists took over.
SPEAKER_01Why? Why did they take over?
SPEAKER_00Because they wanted their own, they wanted to and that's it, that's a very good question because it was a very western state for a long time. Iran was, but the the the extremists took over and created the first Islamic state, and when the Islamic state is decided, pardon me.
SPEAKER_03Well, when do you when do you consider the start of the history with Iran?
SPEAKER_00When when do you consider three or fifty three when the Shah was installed?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and we've done, you know, I'm not there the the history is warts and all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00The last the last 47 years, we've been at war, but very few people have ever admitted it. I mean, we we were we were try we were attempting to be able to stop the terror. Think of all the all the deaths associated with the these the extremists and the attacks that were done by the Iranian government. I mean, even even when we were when we were trying to create and get rid of some of those Islamic extremists in other states, in other countries, the Iranians were supporting the efforts against the United States and those and and trying to create better better conditions for everyone. But when you're looking at what happened in the last month in Iran, 30,000 people were murdered by the government. How how many do we let get murdered before we try to help them?
SPEAKER_03I think uh no, that's not what I'm saying. I think it that two things can be uh uh true at the same time.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03I think the regime in Iran can be horrible and the United States and Israel can be can be warmongers. I think both of these things can be true. And I feel I remember when the war in Iraq was getting started, well, not getting started, but when, you know, when I kind of started to really understand politics a bit better. And I was asking you a lot of questions around Iraq and around why we were going there. And your answers to me were exactly what the government was saying at the time, which was there are weapons of mass destruction, we promise, and that's why we're going. And I'm feeling like there's a little bit of a deja vu here, and it concerns me because I don't believe them and I don't understand what the end game is here. And the fact that I can keep hearing the president speaking and keep hearing Hegseth speak, and I still feel very confused as to what the end game is. I think it's I think, in my opinion, I feel like it's incredibly naive to think that the United States and Israel are trying to do good for the Iranian people. I don't believe that. Like historically, that's never been the case, and I don't believe it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, well, for historically, Iran was one of the most western of the countries in the Middle East.
SPEAKER_03What do you mean by Western?
SPEAKER_00It was it was it was a mostly Christian society, and the Christians and the Jews in Israel, in Iran, were very well done and well-liked between the two. For decades, the Iranian government and the Israeli government got along. The current foreign defense minister for the for the Israelis speaks Farsi. He knows Farsi. He has friends who are Persian. They they have relationships, but because of what happened with the revolution in '89 or in 1979, yeah, that that whole dynamic was destroyed. And you know, the Hebrew Accords have done a great job of being able to accommodate the relationships between the Arab states and the Israelis. Were you if if the Iranians were threatening, and they were, they were part of a terrorist.
SPEAKER_03There is zero evidence to show that. Just the same as there was zero evidence to show that weapons of mass destruction were present in Iraq. Like, I just feel like I feel like we're being sold a rationale that doesn't really exist, and I'm worried about it. And a lot of people are gonna die. A lot of people have died, children are dying.
SPEAKER_00A lot of people have died for the last 47 years.
SPEAKER_03That's a weird way to respond to the fact that people are dying now. I understand people die everywhere, people die all the time, but like I think as well, and you know, as as a man who you just said a few episodes ago, like the peace panel, you were very proud of the peace panel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you bet. Yeah, let's not go to wars. And here we are. And that's exactly what they tried to do. They negotiated and negotiated and negotiated, and the and the and the Iranian government did not make any accommodations to prevent the the increase of their of their nuclear program, which was if you were trying to create a nuclear fuel to be able to fight uh create electricity, that's not what they were doing. I mean, that that's and they were not allowing the the international community, the atomic energy community from the world to come in and monitor it because you there are certain guidelines you have to follow. And if you don't follow those guidelines, if you're not going to try and negotiate, if you're killing and murdering thousands of your own people, where when you know if you if you believe in human rights, when do when do you act?
SPEAKER_03Then why don't we stand up in the same way for against Saudi Arabia? Why don't we stand up in the same way against Israel? Because Israel Israel's you know the atrocities against the Palestinian people? Why don't we stand up against them?
SPEAKER_00What about what about the Palestinian atrocities against the Israelis?
SPEAKER_03Well, if you want to say, you know, people have been dying for 47 years, proportionally, we need to look at what these figures actually look like. Does Israel need to defend themselves? Do they have a right to? Yes. Do they have a right to absolutely obliterate and put forward a genocide against an entire group of people? I don't think they do. And why is it so conflicting in America to say anything negative about Israel? Why is that so afraid?
SPEAKER_00Like negative things all the time.
SPEAKER_03People are very afraid, especially politically, to say anything negative about Israel. And I think that I don't understand why that is. I mean, I do know why it is, but I don't understand why it needs to be that way. You know. Do you not agree?
SPEAKER_00What?
SPEAKER_03Do you not agree with that?
SPEAKER_00No, I I I don't I don't agree. I believe there's a whole lot more existential parts involved than just saying one side's bad, the other side's bad, they're bad too, they're bad too. Everybody's bad. Yeah, sure. There's there are problems, but there's also concerns about the safety of the world. And and when you're talking about the possibility of a radical group to have access to atomic nuclear weapons, I think that there's has to be a concern and you have to you have to be able to discern what has to happen to prevent and to protect the world from dangerous operatives.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But surely like bombing an elementary school isn't one of those things.
SPEAKER_00That was done by the Iranians.
SPEAKER_03That's wild, Dad. Why would they do that to themselves?
SPEAKER_00They didn't intend to.
SPEAKER_03Even Donald Trump doesn't have those reports. He doesn't even know. He he keeps saying even it's still under investigation. He's the only one in his entire government.
SPEAKER_00The last ones I saw. It appeared to be it was done by accident because of a tracking device that was inaccurate on the Iranian missile that was fired. So anyway, I've got to run soon.
SPEAKER_03Can we just look at one headline quickly and then be done?
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_03Cool. Okay. Um, I guess just look up Iran. Maybe you tell me what your headline says, and then I'll find a headline in mine.
SPEAKER_00Okay, it says new Iranian supreme leader, Muchtaba Kameh Khamenei issues first statement since taking power.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. Well, my headline's a little different.
SPEAKER_00What's yours? What's yours?
SPEAKER_03As of seven minutes ago, my headline is Iran's supreme leader, quote, likely disfigured, Hegseth says, as strikes hit Tehran's ability to build more weapons. We're talking about two different things, but um he is hiding, he is wounded, and likely disfigured. Good lord. Um I wish we had I wish we had like headlines from when this all started. Um because you know what your what your news might say versus mine. So like I mean, I guess some some headlines that I've seen on your end have been around uh defense and prevention and right, and mine have been more aimed towards Iranian lives that are being lost, and it's it's focused on lives lost. Um I don't think anybody should be dying. Call me crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I well, no one no one wants to see anybody die.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00But that's that's doesn't feel very Christian.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't feel very Christian to me. Where is the oh that you want to bomb the shit out of the Middle East and I don't know?
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You want to protect the people who can be subjected to terrible things, or do you want to just terrible things just let the terrible things happen?
SPEAKER_03That's not what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00What I'm saying is aren't you?
SPEAKER_03We let terrible things happen when it's in our interest to not say anything, but then when they're happening in a place that, oh, I don't know, has maybe been a really important area for oil development for the past hundred years, then we step in.
SPEAKER_00No and we claim that it's for the better of the people. We have been at war with Iran for 47 years.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Every president, every president's goal was to eliminate the the Islamic Republic that was that was fomenting terrorism around the world and and and and hurting people of all areas of the of the world, Europe, Western countries, etc. All of those people were impacted. And you you eventually you're gonna have to do something about it. Because you well, why is it now?
SPEAKER_03Maybe that's the question. Why right now? Why is this the most important thing?
SPEAKER_00Because they were because we had we had attempted to destroy their ability to make weapons and they had rebuilt it and were coming back, being able to accomplish the task again because they had two or three different locations where they were working on it, and we thought we'd had everything. We thought that why do we sell them weapons? What's that?
SPEAKER_03Why do we sell them weapons?
SPEAKER_00Sell them what we don't sell them weapons.
SPEAKER_03Well, Donald Trump claimed that the Blackhawk that bombed that that school was sold to them by us, and also we absolutely do sell weapons to the Middle East.
SPEAKER_00Well, we we just we just left four billion dollars over in Iraq when we when we got out, and the government took those over. So, you know, how I don't know if we sold them or if they just obtained them or they bought them from the the Afghanis.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I you know, I I don't know. But but you know, there are there are things that that uh to be able to protect. That's the plan. Anyway, so what now?
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um I got five minutes.
SPEAKER_02You got five minutes. I love it. Let me share this with you. Let's read our uh credits and then we'll we'll leave everyone alone.
SPEAKER_03I know you got their your raiders on.
SPEAKER_00I got him. I'm right there.
SPEAKER_03I got him. There we go. This isn't with the new microphone, which I'm afraid to breathe. It's very sensitive.
SPEAKER_04Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03Not really. Between the Steins is a transatlantic podcast recorded between London, England and the great state of Oklahoma.
SPEAKER_00It's hosted by Patty Stein.
SPEAKER_03And Larry Stein. It is produced by Patty.
SPEAKER_00And Patty was produced by me.
SPEAKER_03And my mom. Our editor-in-chief is Brooks Sherman. Hi, Brooks. Our designer is the incredibly talented Ben Azuka.
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SPEAKER_03We'll see you next time from across the pond. Dad, thank you so much for this discussion. Uh more political than we wanted it to be, but I'm sorry, a lot's happening in the world, and I wanted to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00I know. And and and and you know, the thing is, you know, I I don't know everything that the five eyes groups knows, and you don't either. And we I understand that I agree.
SPEAKER_03I don't want to act like I know everything, but we do have a lot of opinions about everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. I agree, but I love you.
SPEAKER_03I love you too. Okay, okay, I'll see you later.