Ep.07 | Why Couples Keep Having the Same Fight

So many couples find themselves having the same fight, in different forms, on repeat. Different trigger, same loop. And the painful truth is — if you don't understand what's actually driving it, nothing changes. 

In this episode we go deep on why the patterns keep showing up, and what it actually takes to break them.

What we cover:

Capacity — why your nervous system load determines everything about how you show up with your partner; and why even small moments of friction can become big ones when the cup is full.

Uncertainty as threat — how threat, whether perceived or real, activates a survival state in your body, and why that state makes genuine connection almost impossible. We also name why uncertainty is so dysregulating and what to do about it.

The past in the present — why your partner's behaviour can trigger something that has nothing to do with them; and how that invisible dynamic keeps the same argument alive.

Emotional intelligence — the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame, and why not knowing what's actually happening inside you is one of the biggest reasons couples stay stuck.

Power — how ego inflation or deflation erode intimacy and safety; and what shared power actually looks and feels like in a real relationship.

When couples can see the dynamic clearly — the capacity piece, the nervous system piece, the power piece, the deeper emotional layer beneath the presenting problem — everything shifts. The fight stops being about who's right. It becomes information. A doorway. And the relationship gets to grow through it rather than around it.

The invitation:

If you're recognising your own patterns in this episode and want help naming what's actually happening, Aaron offers a Relationship Clarity Call — a focused session to identify the dynamic and map a way through. Find it under Services on the website, or send us a message directly.

If you're ready to go all in, the 8-Week Awakened Intimacy Program has just opened up space for a new couple.

Enjoyed this episode? We'd love to hear what landed. If there's a topic or question you'd like us to explore, send it through — this podcast is for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. I am Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And I'm Griam.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And we're so excited to once again welcome you to our fantastic podcast. We've taken a small little hiatus over the last few weeks of recording because we wanted to really ensure that this podcast in particular was really high value. Because what we're going to be addressing is why couples keep repeating the same argument, the same fight, the same disagreement. Because so many couples get caught in loops, they get caught in patterns. They don't fully understand what or why. And so we want to bring a really high value podcast to illuminate all of the complexities, the nuance, and different dimensions as to why couples get stuck in patterns.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I just have to say, I thought you were going to say we've taken a small little overdose of cacao.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Well, that's nothing new.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I know. And then when you're saying loops accordingly, it's like hey, maybe. Anyway, let's go back. Lead the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well, it's not an addiction if it works for you, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Well, if we're aware of it, it's not an addiction if it's cacao. That's what I think. So I tell myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Okay. So we're in it together because it's not coming into our eyes. Alright, well, this is going really well. It's a great start. Thanks, Grier.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

I thought we'd just taken off like a jet on a runway. I thought, great, here we go. We're off to a great start.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, we're going. It's just that little bit of turbulence, you know, as you're taking off. It's like, whoo, it makes you laugh.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Alright, we're just navigating the turbulence. Getting back on course.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

We are grounded.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thanks, Grier, for your feminine.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

You're welcome. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Wild chaotic.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

You never know what's coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah. Alright. Sorry for that interruption. So I'll keep moving forward, will we? Good idea. Getting into a direction. So the first thing we need to name that's so important is this concept of capacity because it is primarily what gets in the way of couples being able to resolve and repair when there's been conflict or disagreement. Capacity has two dimensions that we're going to dive into. One relates to our nervous system capacity, and the other relates to our emotional intelligence and relational skill capacity. So the first one is nervous system capacity. We can also call this like our emotional bandwidth or our nervous system resilience. And what we're speaking to here is you know our stress essentially, our regulation, how regulated are we, how many other external pressures are going on in life, how many other roles and responsibilities are weighing down on us, like work, kids, all of that, it all takes a toll. All of our emotional triggers has an impact on our nervous system. And so whilst we're carrying a big workload or we've got responsibilities around the kids, yeah, it makes sense that our capacity to deal and handle and have space and capacity for our emotions gets diminished.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah, and I think you know, sleep's another huge part of that. If we've had a broken night's sleep, that capacity, you know, Michaela Bowen, um, she gives the cup metaphor, but rather than having a full cup in a good in a good um lens, it's the full cup is when you're tipping over. And so she gives the example or the metaphor that each morning, if we've slept well, ideally, we wake up and our cup is empty, and every little moment of stress, and that could be a stress of micro-stress of like, oh, what should I wear today? You know, that's a little decision-making to running late, traffic, kids fighting, anything like that. Any anything that causes stress creates another drop in the cup, and so as our cup gets fuller and fuller, and we have more and more to hold, we're more um, there's more um literally, if you think about holding something as it gets heavier, we have to turn on more, we have to get more restricted and um resistant and tense, and so it means that any kind of anything coming in from our partner can create this friction, and and so we need to keep having the skills and the awareness to offload those little stresses as we go, both through conversation and through embodiment practices and different things, so that we're continually reducing the cut so that we can actually hold one another, the relationship and life.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we had our own experience of this recently. Uh, I, Aaron, went to a men's gathering and it was phenomenal, had a great time, and I did my absolute best to ensure that I rested throughout the experience and the gathering. Uh, yet, despite my best effort efforts, I still came back from that really exhausted. And Greer had been doing her absolute best to hold the family together, to look after the kids, to continue to run our businesses, to take care of other family members as well. And so when I came back, we're both at capacity, and so then you I could see you were really full, I was really depleted, and so in those moments where there was a bit of misunderstanding, or I couldn't meet you, how you really needed our capacity impacted our connection.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah. Yeah, and I noticed myself building resentment, particularly because you'd been away, and so this sense of like, well, you've you know, and this is this is not a uh me sharing these thoughts is not a good example of when we're really into the usness and we're on the same page. But there was this sense of you having had time away, and so it it what the the thought happens, the thought loops that come up for me is like, well, that's not really fair, what about me? You've had time away, I've been at home, you've been away on a man's retreat, you know, and so all that that narrative doesn't help, and I'm I'm self-aware enough to not necessarily believe those thoughts and know that they're not really my thoughts, but it's a good example that when I'm um restored and when my cup is isn't overflowing in that negative sense, then I don't have those thoughts, they don't come up, and so having those practices of self-care and down-regulating, and then staying um transparent with one another about what's coming up, and even you know, I think I may have said, Yeah, I'm a something that we will often share if we find ourselves caught on something or capacities, we'll say, you know, I know it's not my highest truth, I'm stoked that you've had a great time away, and I'm finding myself, you know, feeling a bit resentful, and that in that I could I don't bypass, I'm not shoving it away, I'm not suppressing it, but I'm also not just outwardly blaming you because I totally encouraged you and wanted you to go on the retreat, so it wasn't there, there was nothing wrong or bad had happened per se, other than that we were both at capacity.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, and when I reflect back, is you know, when I'm depleted, I'm wanting like help, help me, or you know, uh when my capacity is low, sometimes little things that wouldn't normally frustrate me do. Uh and when I w came to you with those frustrations or uh expressed a a micro frustration because you were already at capacity, you just didn't have the tolerance or the bandwidth to to really deal with with what I was bringing.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Well, yeah, it it didn't, it was particularly challenging because I f the big one when it really happened, I felt that you were projecting something onto me. So I was like, fuck, I've got all this stuff to ha handle, and now you're putting your stuff on me. I'm not saying that's true, but that was my experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I wanted to raise it because usually if I was more resourced, if you were more resourced, that conversation would have gone very differently.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

100%.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah. And you know, the the gift of it was recognising how uh important and imperative it is for me as Greece husband to ensure that I'm always building my capacity to be able to be the supportive husband that she needs. Right? Like that friction, it triggered a lot of guilt in me. And rather than going into blaming and making myself wrong, because I did do my best to ensure that I came back from capacity, you know, that that toxic shame would have made me collapse and go, oh fuck, I'm such such a fuck up and I never get this right. Again, or internally self-focused, I I had the healthy, healthy guilt of like fuck, I've fucked up here, okay, what can I do better? And it's uh it's inspired me to have a fierce commitment for the next quarter, the next six months to not go to any men's events, men's gatherings, or do anything that's going to damage my capacity and bandwidth, and you know, that includes other social engagements as well. Yeah. So, you know, these triggers, these moments of friction, they're opportunities to reflect on what's really important.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yeah, and I think you know, there's a musician coming down to Tazi this weekend that we've had on the calendar for months, and I think that's a good example.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Sometimes we need to say, uh, there's no right or wrong about this, and so when you're saying you're gonna limit your social engagement, that doesn't mean that necessarily locking yourself up into a into the room and not letting yourself out, but it's really tuning into uh it does going along to this, does saying yes to this actually really serve me? Does it serve the family, the kids, you know, our whole ecosystem of our relationship? And that uh I know for me, for many, many, many years slash decades, I would say yes to something, and then the day would come and I wouldn't want to do it, but I'd do it because I'd committed to it and I didn't want to let people down, and I was just continually abandoning what was real and my deeper needs and desires in the moment based on an attachment to doing something that I thought sounded fun, yeah, and it inevitably uh left me uh disconnected from myself ultimately. And so, whilst there is a musician, it's the second time he's coming to Tassie, and the second time that we've intended to go when we've looked at the week that we've had and what's happening on the weekend already, it's this really loving choice to actually let's give ourselves space, and something that I have seen in couples who are always doing things and always on the move, and that might include as bigger things as overseas travel and interstate trips, and that could be for leisure or work, but also just these extra things adding on extra things, extra time commitments, because every time we have a time commitment that that adds this extra block and uh constriction essentially, rather than just having space to be and navigate what's coming up, and I know, like for me personally, and there's no rule of thumb about this, it's just about noticing. I know for me, you know, two time commitments, maybe three, if I really, really need to do it on any day, is enough, and I'm I'm really committed to having that spaciousness, and that might sound really luxurious to a lot of people, but it's because I've just come to see that even if I do do that, or I have a day where I have four-time commitments, it just really impacts my nervous system. And if that if I do need to do that for any particular reason, then ensuring that there's space, you know, the day before, the day after to allow for that regulation and/or really committing to a self-regulation practice.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah. This is why self-care is essential when it comes to relationship, taking care of ourself in order to be able to show up and meet and connect with not just our intimate partner but also our kids, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Of course, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah, and the other really key part of capacity that we want to name explicitly here is how uncertainty impacts our regulation. So, in terms of capacity, if we're consciously anxious and uncertain about our financials, about the state of the world, about the state of the relationship, are we uncertain that we're even going to be with this person long term? If we're uncertain around how they're gonna show up today in terms of like mood swings and uh emotional outbursts, all of that uncertainty impacts capacity and our nervous system and our ability to be regulated, calm-centered, and therefore in the part of our brain that can actually think clearly, handle nuance and experience compassion and empathy.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah, a really good example of that. We were on a call with Dr. Chris Lee. If you don't know Dr. Chris Lee's work, check him out. He's he's got a great channel, Dr. Chris Lee. And he was giving the example of a one of the best ways to create uh uncertainty and and stir that dysregulated nervous system is to send someone a message and say, we need to talk. And just that line alone, we'll go, Oh God, what is it? You know, because the brain will not naturally go to I bet they want to talk about how much they love me and how they can't wait to whisk me away to whatever, you know, that's not how the brain works. And I had that with uh my mum just two days ago. I was at we live with my mum and I was at the desk at the kitchen table doing some work, and mum said, Oh, when you've finished that, I'd just like to have a chat with you about something. And I felt it in my belly, like in my solarplexes straight away. I was like, oh, and I noticed it, and I'd heard Chris say this just a week or two prior. I thought, oh, that's such a good example for the podcast. So thanks, mum. And I had enough awareness and and regulation to I know that it wasn't going to be anything too dramatic, but it was really interesting to notice that slight uh nervousness and anxiousness. And mum did need to talk to me about something, but it wasn't a huge deal. But even noticing that, oh, that uncertainty, okay. Before I ask her, what is it? Just taking a moment to regulate so that I'm coming in from that empty cup, or at least having the cup somewhat uh buffered, so that if there is a big drop coming in, I've got I'm like on stable ground to hold it.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah, exactly. And really the connection with uncertainty and our nervous system is how our nervous system activates into a sympathetic mode or fight or flight or goes dysregulated when we interpret or sense threat. And that threat can be relational, physical. The the issue is that whether it's relational threat, meaning a sense of the withdrawal of love or approval or acceptance, our body interprets relational threat as serious as physical threat because when we're young, when we're babies, toddlers, we're reliant upon others, our tribe and community for our survival. And so that's part of our wiring, it's part of our nervous system. And when we interpret someone's behavior or someone's mood, and it reminds our body of something that happened to us in the past, then it will trigger that same state, that same strategy that helped us adapt and survive in the past. So, what I mean by that is our partner or someone has a behavior, our embodies interp our body interprets that as a threat, it kink kicks off that survival strategy, and then we're off to the races. Our past has come into the present and is impacting our capacity to be relational, to act as a mature wise adult, and the emotional part of our brain is running the show, and just to weave it into the theme and topic for this podcast. This is a huge reason why couples get stuck in patterns, is because their nervous systems are constantly picking up on or interpreting the other person's behaviour as threatening. Whether that's true or not, it's simply the body associating present moment behaviour with past events.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Yeah, yes, 100%. And I it's really important to note that so say Aaron has behaviour, it reminds me of something that happened to me in the past, that I may be conscious to that, but probably most likely I'm not even conscious of that. Vast majority of the time it's very unconscious, yeah, and so not only can it be uh not only can we interpret it as a as a threat and perhaps you know unconsciously to our safety, but I think in my experience, if if I think back to my previous relationship and a bit a very specific uh behaviour that he would do that I created a meaning from that I remember early in our relationship, I don't I won't, I'm not gonna name it here, it's too personal, but I remember early on in our relationship you did that a couple of times, and I had to let you know. I said, babe, just so you know, that that's a no for me because of and I gave context. And so we also it's a good example of what can happen when we're um when we are regulated, when we have the awareness, when it feels safe enough in the relationship to A, to be able to even name that we were in a previous relationship, and then B, you know, really teach our partner and lovingly guide them as to what does and doesn't work for us, and if appropriate, give context so that they understand the gravity of that action or behaviour.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, and you are only able to do that because of the next part of capacity, your emotional intelligence and self-awareness and relational skill. So this is another huge component of why couples get stuck in the same patterns, the same fights is because they don't have the capacity to be self-aware, emotionally intelligent of why they're actually feeling triggered. What is the emotion that's actually playing out? What's beneath the behaviour? Something I've seen time and time again, particularly in relationships, is how impactful and how much shame, toxic shame is beneath the behaviour.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, and just taking a moment to name the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame. Healthy shame is that uh healthy recognition that we've made a mistake and oh okay, we need to rectify that, make amends and take responsibility. The toxic shame is the fundamental belief that something is inherently wrong with us. It's not the behaviour, it's us, and we're broken. So just want to name that.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

No, that's good. It's healthy shame is I did bad, but I'm not a bad person. Toxic shame is I did bad and I am bad. There's something fundamentally flawed with me. And toxic shame is one of the heaviest, most uncomfortable emotions and states that we can feel. It's horrible. And it makes complete sense that we do whatever we can to try to get away from feeling that. And so why this becomes an issue is because the surface level behaviour can quite often look very different to the emotion that we're trying to avoid. What I mean by that is that someone who can be, and quite often this is how men will react or try to get away from their shame, is one person can get aggressive, they get fiery, they get s snappy, snarky, um, they push away, and if they actually stop, and I can speak very congruently on this because this is what happens for me, is and what I learnt is if I actually stop and I pause and I inquire into myself and go beneath the layers of blame, blaming other, trying to get away from, and I actually go to why am I feeling like this, more often than not, it's I don't feel good enough or I feel inadequate. Uh I don't, oh, there's something wrong with me. And I don't like the fact that the other person has made me, quote unquote, made me feel like that. And so I push away, I get aggressive. The trick is, and what makes that really hard, is that when we react like that and we push away, and then we realise we're feeling shame, we can collapse. We go inward, we shut down. And and then the issue with that is we're still being self-focused, we're overconcerned with and all our attention is on us. Even though it's shame-based, it's it's sad, it's mopey, it will create disconnection because we're not actually looking up and seeing how our behavior has affected the other person. We're not staying relational, we're just the the finger goes from pointing out at them just to pointing in at us. And it's still uh an act of selfishness.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Yeah, and I I know for me the opposite side of that, and I was writing an email on this just yesterday, that that for so long in my journal, in my journey, I was either self-obsessed, that small S self, to oh, what will people think of me? What should I do? You know, what happens if I don't do that? Um, or I was self-abandoning, as in capital S, abandoning my truth. And either way, if I'm in relationship with you, if I'm self-obsessing, or if I'm gonna just self-abandon, just push aside my needs and my deeper desires just to meet to you and contort to you, then either those are going to create a lack in in relationship and and true connection because even if I'm doing what I think you want me to do, it's not really my truth. So there's only going to be a certain layer of connection that can come from that. So we're just gonna dovetail now as we move from our capacity and how capacity is going to directly impact our ability to move through triggers, and also our um our awareness of what's actually really happening so that we don't get confused between the presenting problem and what's actually really going on for us. And yesterday morning was a really good example. Uh, how it looked in an in objective reality between the the two of our subjective reality was was quite different in the sense that I think it's best to tell your side of the story first because that's yeah. Do you want to share what happened for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:36

So I woke up and I'd had a tattoo done the day before, and obviously, tattoo care is really really important to ensure that it heals properly and ensure the tattoo looks good and stays good. Uh so that was my primary focus because it's important, and I I couldn't really hear a lot going on, so I had assumed that Kaisen had slept in, and so I just got up and immediately went straight to the shower, got in the shower, started cleaning, and the shower was deliciously warm and just decided to stay in there a bit longer and got out, needed to cover up so that no dust or no uh linen or anything got into the healing tattoo, got that covered up, and as I was doing so, then Gree walked into the room and asked if I could share. Then she asked if she could use the feedback wheel. Uh I was like, okay. I was immediately I could feel myself slightly defensive or a little bit unsure because the feedback will obviously there's I've done something that has triggered you or that you want to give feedback on. Uh and I just checked in with myself because the thing with you know, do we have capacity to engage in feedback? Doesn't mean that we're completely regulated, we're completely accepting. It's just do I have enough bandwidth to engage in this? And that means that I can be nervous, I can be a bit unsure, I can have a bit of fear or feel a little bit defensive, but do I have enough presence online for me to be able to hear what she's got to say? So that's how I was checking in with myself. I'm like, yeah, there was a bit of apprehension, but yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah. And for those of you, if this is the first podcast of ours that you're listening to, the feedback wheel is a actually specific communication framework that we teach couples that we work with. And for Aaron and I, because we've been practicing and embodying this work for so long, it's it's rare that we need to uh use it. And so if one of us says, Oh, can I practice a feedback wheel? It's it's normally something that we need to be grounded for. There's some weight to it. And so for me, in my subjective reality, what had happened is I'd had Aaron had come home from his tattoo the day before, exhausted as I had expected, because it was in a very tender frut on your on your hip bone, and it's it's big tattoos suck, they're they take a lot of energy, plus, they're on an Ayurvedic cleanse at the moment, so where our energy is low anyway. And so you came home depleted, and rightly so, you needed to go to bed early. Uh, so that's what had happened the day before. During the night, I'd had an incredibly broken night's sleep and not slept well. I'd ended up getting it up at 4am and had done some self-care and um kind of topped my myself up a little bit, and then I'd been working for an hour or so, and then our son had gotten up and at about 6am, a bit before that, and I'd I was really hanging out to have a shower, but my clothes are in the room that Aaron was, and I knew that sleep would be important for his recovery, so I'd consciously stayed very present to our son so that he wouldn't make noise, so that when uh Aaron could sleep in, and just with the my intention that okay, as soon as Aaron gets up, I'm gonna go and have a shower and just rejuvenate myself. And so what happened for me is when I saw Aaron get up and just walk past, uh, walk down the hallway. So our kitchen has like a glass door, so I could see him walk past and just go straight to the bathroom and then so not come and say good morning, but then go in and have a have a long shower. I noticed I was okay, like I was tired, I was um hanging out to just have a bit of space, and I knew I could feel that I was a little bit uh I was probably gonna be a bit irritable, like I was a bit on shaky ground as the day was starting. Uh, but I was okay. But what happened is as soon as I walk in, I saw him walk past and not really say hello and just go into the bathroom, my resentment for him towards him went from a zero to two to it wasn't a ten, but it was a seven, and within five minutes as I heard the shower keep going, it was getting up to an eight or nine. So then when he when I went into him, I could I could feel it, it was in my body as my chest was a bit inflated, it was like it like kind of you know puffing up a bit, and I needed to say, Hey babe, like yo, and so that's what was happening for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, yeah. And so you know, Greer shared the feedback wheel, it went well. I heard her and acknowledged.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, so you felt heard and understood, and yeah, for me for the following like 15-20 minutes, I just noticed within myself that I'd sort of retreated and shut down and felt a little bit on guard and had sort of felt shrunken and like yeah, and so I recognized that that's a a reaction, and there was part of me that wanted to justify, and that would have meant that R wouldn't have felt hurt. Uh there was part of me that also wanted to shrivel up and hide. So I also know that's not relational either. So I inquired into like what's really going on here, and for me I I'd acted really innocently, and it was that part of me that felt misunderstood, or like it wasn't safe for my innocence. And so this is something we when we work with uh clients, whether it's couples or individuals, we we do parts work, recognising that our mind has many different parts, although you know we hear thoughts, uh those thoughts come from different parts of our mind. And for me, uh in this context, in this moment, there was a part of me that felt misunderstood and like it wasn't safe for me to simply meet my own needs. And so I just went to Greer and said innocence feels unsafe.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah, well actually m my memory is you came to me and said um that you know I thank you for coming to me and helping me learn. So that was really important that you started with that and acknowledged uh my intention in bringing you the feedback. And yeah, my my innocence feels really hurt, and that was really powerful for you to for me, A, to acknowledge that you saw my good intention in bringing it to you, and B that you'd taken it on, and then also that you named your innocence because the part of me that um is innocent, she's been bruised many times from misunderstood. So it helped me connect to that, and so that really helped me come onto the same page as you because oh yeah, I have that innocent part, I know her, I know how that feels, and that's how that comes into that sense of us-ness and and supporting one another to meet our own needs and the relational needs of understanding, compassion, learning, growth, all of that, rather than well, you're innocent, what about my innocence? You know, it comes from that space of of commonality, and whereas if we weren't aware of what was happening, the presenting problem was you getting up and having a shower and not checking in, and we could have thought about that. And why don't you check in on me? And not actually tuning into what's actually happening and recognising that Aaron had no idea what had happened during the night, and I had no idea that he had no idea, you know. So it's like so, and for us often, well, um yeah, I think sometimes our like disagreements or we don't really fight that much, but one of my biggest things that that brings up things for me is if I feel like you haven't been thoughtful or thought or considerate, and you're so much better at that now, you know, you've really taken that on. So that's been an underlying need of mine to feel considered, and so recognising, and this is one of Aaron's things, it's not that you think of me and then you think, Fuck it, I'm not gonna go and check on Greer, you just don't think of it, and so I'm continually teaching you, babe, think of it.

unknown 33:39

Think of me.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

So, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

So this is another reason why so many couples get caught in the same pattern is because they're fighting over the presenting problem. Yeah, Greer says very often the fight about the dishes isn't about the dishes. You know, other presenting problems can look like time, sex, money, parenting, yes. Often it's the tone of voice, but the way in which something's said.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah. I'll often do that, hey?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah. Well, I think everyone does. Like I've had that as well. I do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Sometimes it can feel um the way you say something can feel what's that?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

That's what I mean. You yeah, the way that I speak. Yeah, right. Yeah, you can pick that up, yeah, yeah. And that just to like tune into the dishes about the fight over the dishes isn't about the dishes. I'll give the dishwasher example and the whole stacking of the dishwasher because I think it's a good example. Because Aaron, when you put certain things in the dishwasher, it's like the meaning that I take from it from the way that you stack it, in the sense that just I in my subjective reality, a dish can take up four times more than what it actually needs to if you stack it properly, so properly in a better compass, according to the life rules of Grier. Actually, Chris does, and so the meaning I make from it is that you're this is the meaning, right? This isn't my enlightened self. But what happens is that you don't care about my time, and you're putting dishes in the dishwasher that's gonna fill the dishwasher up quickly, and therefore I'm gonna be the one who has to empty it and put it on because no one else thinks to put the dishwasher on. Now that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

No, thanks for naming that.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

And in my experience, I seem to be doing it a lot, so I do feel like I do it a lot, and so it it's again, it's like whether or not one should the stack the dishes in a certain way, it's more about the I feel like it's got I feel like it's creating more load on on my workload, which is already really full, rather than just lining it up.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Well, do you want to have a fight about the dishwasher? I can feel it.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

How do we do it? What are you feeling in your body?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I feel it, feeling in my hands.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

I'm about to punch. I'm just gonna punch. We're just going, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Well, the irony is that so often our dishwasher doesn't actually wash the dishes properly because there's too much in there and they haven't been put in the proper angle to be able to be washed. So therefore, more workload happens because the dishes don't actually get washed.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Because you just kind of jumble it in rather than actually putting it in.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I put it on a specific angle so that the water actually hits where it's dirty.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I've been reflecting lately how often uh laughter is important for dealing with things. Alright, so how do we resolve it?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

So, what's the unmet need here? Uh my unmet need? You don't feel heard. Or you don't feel hurt cared for, you don't feel I f I feel like you don't see that I'm right. Holy Well. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

But but in that, so but in that right, I I know that my uh adaptive child is black and white, and my adaptive child believes in in right and wrong. So I'm aware, I'm aware in that, but this is what's so hard is that when I'm in that I genuinely feel like this is an example where I am right.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Can you answer the question?

SPEAKER_02 37:27

What am I making it mean?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

No, what's that unmet need?

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Um Well, I think the unmet need, if I get honest about it, is that I need if I'm finding so the unmet need that I have is that I actually need to get better at helping you, at asking for your help in specific uh things that need doing in any moment where I feel overcapacity. So it's actually I need to reclaim that responsibility. That's what it is.

unknown 38:03

Fuck you.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

What's your unmet need?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Um you recognising that it's not a big deal for me.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

See, that's that same match, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah, I know. No, yeah, no, it's not an unmet need for me. I'm just defending myself.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah. But it's true, right? So we could I've got more charge about it than Aaron. Aaron's like, it's just not a big deal. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

And so I think that frustrates you because it's I'm like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

It's a good example though. If I can feel myself getting charge up about something, then the medicine's in there for me.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

So my commitment to you and what's important here is alright, so I can do the typical male thing of like whatever, it's not a big deal, I can sweep it under the rug of like and assume that you're uh over-exaggerating, you're making a big make making a mountain out of a molehill, right? And dismiss and minimise what you're actually asking for. Yeah. Yet when we're relational, when we're actually wanting to have deeper intimacy and connection, and being on the same page in relationship, I need to recognise that the in order if I want my needs met in the relationship, one of the best ways I can do that is meeting Greer's needs. That's right. And that's so this is important to her, it's not important to me, but it's important to her. Yeah, so I'm gonna make it important and meet that need because inevitably that's gonna help her have a more full cup, her feel met, understood, cared for, and in turn she's gonna reciprocate that and meet a need that I may have that's not as important to her.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, and what is really significant about this is that I know from past conversations like this is that Aaron stacking the dishwasher in the retired way that he does is not gonna trigger me as much because I've I've taken off the meaning. I've gotten really I I understand it really isn't about Aaron thinking, I don't care, Greer can unpack it, it's not for me to do. Like you know, really having this very specific conversation. So I know from the past these things that trigger used to trigger me, they don't trigger me anymore. From the Apple call.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

There was another one too where I didn't clean out the thing in the in the sink. Remember that?

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Yeah, yeah, well that's valid.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

But you I no, this is important, yeah, right. So what's that thing in the sink called the drain thing, plug? The the plug that cat holds all the bits of scraps.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah, it's a plug that will strain as well. You push it in to make it a plug.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah, so we had a conversation, it was a while ago now, but I would clean at the end of the night the vast majority of the kitchen, do all the dish, pack up all the dishes, clean everything because Greer cooked, put everything away, clean the bench, and then I'll just leave that little bit in the sink, and Greer came to me after many a time of me leaving it there and not really not thinking about it. And Greer pointed out that I often leave the scraps in the bottom of the sink, and it it triggered me hearing this because there was no acknowledgement of all of the other effort that I'd gone to to regularly clean all of the rest of the kitchen, there was just this focus on the little bit that I wasn't doing, and uh my reaction was like, Oh, you expect me to be perfect, just like one tiny little thing, I've done all this other stuff, and none of that's acknowledged. And and uh then a few days later, one of our children went to clean the kitchen, and Greer said, Oh, just do as much as so that you don't start hating it. And I was like start hating life, and I was like, Oh, that's it, that's all I'm doing. I've done as much as I what like I can contribute and what I have capacity for, and anything beyond that's gonna make me start hating life. And I was like, Well, that's a double standard, double expectation, and anyway, we named that and identified that you know I'd left that just because I'd start hating life if I also had to do that tiny bit.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Um, I don't want to take the conversation because I want to give context to what was happening on the situation, it would take too much. I've actually got self-awareness to know that I would take the podcast in a different angle. Um, but what I will say is that um again, I know now it's not that you're just leaving it for me, it's just that you've done. And also, I think it's a good example. I don't think I was quite aware of, because it was quite a long time ago now, of actually really like rather than complaining, actually seeking to understand behaviour and then asking specific making a request rather than complaining and also acknowledging and appreciating and bringing in the the curiosity rather than the judgment because until I get curious about something that's triggering, it's gonna be really hard for me to actually be able to see the other side and understand where that's coming from. And if I'm not doing that, I'm gonna make my such assumptions and my judgments.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Yeah, yeah, and now more often than not, I actually clean that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

How does it feel when you clean it?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

It feels good because I know it means something to you, yeah, and I feel like I'm being a good husband. You are, and then I'll just leave something else.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Which our son always does also does now. Yeah. Alright, moving on to the fi third and final segment segment. Wikidado wickedo win wicked wall.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah, so wow, that was a big time.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Yeah, that was my and being on a cleanse noise.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

So something that we've alluded to through this conversation so far is when there's a disagreement, when we're triggered, when we're dysregulated, we will like power comes into play. And we can be ego inflated or ego deflated. Meaning that we can be righteous, we can go to control, we can be uh blame the other person. That's an ego inflation, and we call that grandiosity. The other part of it is we can have ego deflation, and that's that toxic shame piece of something's wrong with me, I'll never get this right, why do I always fuck it up? And the orientation and blame goes into the self, and that also really impacts connection because we close off or wall off as well. So whether we're disempowered or we're trying to overpower, power also creates these patterns and cycles and loops.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

And that there's always going to be an element of power within relationship, but what we're wanting to come into is a sense of shared power, so that there are different areas of our relationship where we have different gifts, different qualities, different knowledge, and so one of us may lead in different areas of our life, but there's still that sense of equality and mutual respect and sharing of power. So that's where you know the power over is when someone becomes more controlling and there's like yeah, telling the other what to do, for example, telling Aaron how to stack the dishwasher versus coming into understanding, like honestly, with a dishwasher, I am going to interpret that you're stacking differently now, with a different, like much less emotional meaning. And so there is this, and now also that I have empowered myself to ask. If I notice myself seeing the dishwasher, I'm like, oh my god, this is the second time, third time today. I'm gonna unpack it, like asking you. So I need to be responsible and empower myself in that way to ask, and then I actually A, I give you a chance to help meet my needs and reduce the resentment before it builds up, but B, we're we're I have to open to receive and share that. And there's so many. I mean, I'll speak for myself working with women one-on-one. The number of times that I've heard women say I just end up doing it myself because it's just easier, particularly with children also, but also within relationship, I just can't be bothered. Again, I just it's just going to turn into a fight, it's easy if I just do it myself. But the problem with that is that it will just become a loop, and that that need will never be met, and also sometimes a woman, and again, I I um you can I'll get you to speak to men, but because I work with women one-on-one, I and I am woman, have a particular lens that I I see this through, is uh a sense of sometimes women can be like I would say often if if there's a sense of um where that power inequality can play out at times, or where a woman can feel disempowered, is that not always, not always by any means, but uh something may come up and the male may leave. He may just take this unfunctional space and leave, and then the woman might want to, or how do I kind of either she might be boundless and chase and try to work it out and talk it out and not respect that the you know man needs space and he needs to respect her and and do it in a more functional way. And so a sense of the power can also come in if if one person doesn't feel empowered in the sense that they don't have the skills and like communication relational skills to actually meet the confrontation, and so because of that lack of the the disempowerment through I don't know actually how to have this conversation because it's really tricky, and this can be man or woman, so I'm just gonna sweep it under the carpet, I'm gonna take dysfunctional space, or I'm just gonna continually talk about the presenting problem rather than actually be brave enough to go to what's actually the root cause and what's really happening there.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And what that could look like is partner A comes to partner B, they've got something vulnerable to share, they share it, and then the other partner takes it really personally, they blow up, they get really aggressive, and the person that's just shared that vulnerable thing uh feels dismissed or unheard, or it's not safe for them to really speak their truth, and then they just feel more disempowered, like you know, that lack of skill is and the lack of emotional intelligence and awareness just impacts so much because you know that partner A that's bringing the vulnerable thing, if they're not sharing that vulnerable thing in a skillful way, then it is more likely to trigger partner B. And then also partner B needs to have the awareness and containment of the trigger and recognise that they've taken it personally, they're feeling yes, they're feeling angry, but underneath that is is shame or not enoughness or um or that they're being misunderstood or accused or blamed. And so many fights happen because of a lack of skill. That lack of skill erodes the safety. The safety in this context is the s safe safety to be ourself, not just physical safety. And so then that original partner just doesn't feel like they can bring those vulnerable conversations. Partner B doesn't really want to hear it because it feels so personal.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Yeah, and what happens over time that reduces the safety in the relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

And so partner A in blowing up and getting aggressive, that is what we would describe as a one-up grandiose move. They're trying to reclaim a sense of power through an entitlement to how they feel and making it more important than what the other person has brought to the conversation. It it comes across as defensive, as aggressive, and it's actually a power move to avoid vulnerability. And so when power is shared, it means I can bring something to you, or partner A can bring the vulnerable thing to partner B. And partner B will respect that they're doing that for the sake of intimacy, for the sake of honesty. Uh they're not doing it to blame, attack, or accuse. They're doing it so that we can learn to explore each other's subjective world and get a greater understanding and appreciation for what's going on for one another at the deeper layers, because that's what intimacy is. There's a sense of fairness in terms of I'm gonna give you space for you to share what's going on for you in order for you to feel heard and safe, and in return, I'm gonna expect the same. That if I've held space for you to and I've listened and heard and validated that there'll also be space for me to do the same.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Yeah, and I would I would say um perhaps just slightly tweaking that word expectation, it's more a shared agreement, it's an understanding that you know if I say to you, like I did yesterday morning, can I use the feedback wheel? So it's really important that I seek Aaron's permission rather than just coming in and go, you when you know blah blah blah blah. Okay, so I've got to make sure he he's in the space to be able to hear me because there's no point in me sharing anything if Aaron's not in the space. So uh A doing that, you you know from all the work that we've done that if one of us brings it, it's for the good of the relationship, and so that is really really important. And again, it comes down to the knowing that we are on the same team, we're on the same team, and we both, from the nature of reality, we're gonna have different perspectives, and rather than if we're focusing on who's right or wrong, no one's gonna win, even if I win because I've proven that I'm right. I haven't really, because it's not a win for the relationship. The relationship wins when we can both see one another's perspective, and just like in the dishwashing example, we we both gain from one another's perspective, and then we we take on a more broad perspective because of that. There's a synergy in that, and there's a togetherness and a coming back, and so that every time we move through something like that, we come into deeper safety, and okay, I it's safe for me to bring something, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

And it doesn't mean we have to agree either, just because we're sharing a subjective experience and our perspectives doesn't mean we have to agree. Like, to be honest, I still don't agree with that. Greer's way of soaking the dishwasher is right. I was about to say the same thing, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

And it's also not compromising. I'm not a fan of compromising, I don't think people win, it's just an acceptance. Okay, I like it that way, you like it that way, but you doing it that way doesn't mean that, doesn't mean what I was making it mean, and I also need to speak up and ask for help when I need.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Yeah, and I can also appreciate that it's meaningful if I attempt to stack the dishwasher in the way Greer would like it.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

And I can help you with that if you would like me to show you.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

You can yeah, okay, sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Alright, so let's just recap. Like if you find yourself in a relationship or a dynamic that is repeating the same fights, the same loops, the same argument, really look at what's underneath it. What's the deeper dynamic at play here? Who is the I are you both people that tend to get ego inflated, get overly righteous, get attached to being right, want to blame the other, they're the one that needs to be fixed, they're the one that if only they would do that, then we would be okay. Are you the more disempowered? Do you give your po power away? Do you diminish your own needs? Do you not speak your truth in a way that's respectful? So looking at the power imbalance and the power dynamics, then also look at the capacity piece. Do you guys have skills? Do you have mechanisms of repair? Do you know how to respectfully speak your truth, claim your subjective experience in a way that isn't overly righteous, that is respectful to the other person? Is there also the emotional intelligence of knowing how to distinguish between healthy and toxic shame? Uh being able to recognise and go beneath our anger or our sadness or our uh res uh walls like being reserved, being shut down. And also it's really common that couples fight late in the day, late in the evening. Majority of fights happen after work, before bed, when we've had a we've had enough of the day, when our emotional bandwidth is at its lowest. Are we trying to repair at a time where our nervous system is already full at capacity? Would it be better to try have these conversations to repair and resolve earlier in the day?

SPEAKER_02 57:00

And of course, the more we practice this, the more we build our skill set, the quicker we resolve. So we don't need to put aside an hour to like we resolved that what happened yesterday morning within I think the initial feedback wheel was maybe three or four minutes.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

And then you took 15-20 minutes and you came back to me, and it was probably literally a one-minute conversation. So it doesn't have to take a long time. And the the benefit of that is that we kind of we still the waters after that initial um desettling. So we actually went on that morning to have a few little triggers, but because we'd already reset the water table, they didn't build up and we both stayed really regular and it didn't mount to anything. But if we hadn't done that, that would have just built up and up and up, and every little droplet would have felt like a giant cup coming into the into the bucket. So yeah, yeah. So to finish up, I actually want to make an explicit invitation that if you're curious about what Aaron was just speaking about, which is like understanding what is the dynamic, what's actually really playing on, like playing out in our relationship. Aaron does offer like uh I think somewhat ridiculously discounted offering of a relationship breakthrough and clarity call. Do you want to just spend 30 seconds just explaining what that is?

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Well, we name the dynamic. I help you guys explicitly name and acknowledge what that dynamic is and identify what the pattern is because with that awareness, then you can actually identify what the strategy is to resolve it.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

Yeah, and I think that's like it's valued at 250, we offer it 85, 95, something like that. You can go into our website, look up services, and it's under there, or you can just send us a message. And the other thing is that if you are interested in actually going to all of the layers, like Aaron said, and really building your skills to check out our eight-week awakened intimacy program. We literally just finished up with a couple this week, and so that means that we have space to work with another couple. So uh yeah, thank you so much for your time and your energy. We would love to hear any feedback, anything that particularly resonated. If you have a topic or a question you'd like us to explore in a future episode, please let us know. We love hearing from you because it's really important to us that this podcast being meaningful and helpful and actually serve. So we want to make it about you. It's it's not about us.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Yeah. All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

Bye.