Ep.10 | The Hidden Driver Beneath Distance and Disconnection

Nearly every couple that reaches out to us says the same thing:
"We just need to communicate better."

And they're right.
But communication tools don't work
when something deeper is running underneath them.

That something is shame.

In this episode, we go somewhere most relationship podcasts won't.
We share our own shame; openly, somatically, in real time
and walk you through why shame is the hidden driver behind so much
conflict, distance, and disconnection in relationships.

You'll learn the difference between toxic shame and healthy shame,
why shame almost never shows up wearing its own face,
and why your relationship is actually the most powerful container for healing it.

This is the episode that has to come before the communication tools.

Because if you don't know what's actually happening underneath,
the pattern just keeps repeating.
Dare to go deeper.
🎙️ Awakened Intimacy Podcast | Episode 10

For more free resources visit or to book a Relationship Clarity Call visit:
intimacyforcouples.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. I'm Aaron.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I'm Ellen. And I'm Greer.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

We're really excited once again to show up and deliver as much value as we can here on the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. Today we're diving into something really important because nearly all couples that are experiencing conflict, turbulence, disconnection, you know, the service level problem for them is communication. And it's valid 100%. And from our perspective and what we've seen working with many couples and in our own relationship is that if there is a limited emotional intelligence, it doesn't matter what communication tool or framework that you're using, if you don't actually have the self-awareness to know what's going on internally at the root cause, underneath the surface, then the real issue is never going to resolve. The pattern is going to keep on repeating because what's driving the pattern is these deeper, unprocessed, unconscious emotions. And the big one that we've seen time and time again, and there are others, but primarily the core one that gets in the way or creates the most turbulence is shame. In particular, toxic shame. So that's what we're going to be going into today and exploring that as a topic in and of itself before we look at resolving conflict and pursuer distancer dynamics and everything that occurs when a couple is experiencing conflict.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

And as Aaron's wife, who witnesses Aaron, because you do most of the planning for these podcasts, and you had started off planning for this podcast, and it was going to be on the pursuer distancer, and it was really in developing that that you recognise actually we need to come back to shame first. Because A, we recognize that the pursuer distancer wasn't that predominant in the early stages of our relationship or current, but particularly it was the shame work that that's actually what really helped us to go really deep. And in some ways, that's what motive us. Like in order for us to get to those depths, we had to improve our communication so that we could go there. So it's it's not like you get your shame work done and then you do your communication, it's very much in tandem, but we needed to explore that the root cause of a lot of those communication ruptures and taking things personally and reacting before we go deep into the communication over the next month.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Exactly. And I think why this is so important to address is because really shame has a lot to do with our relationship and our perception of ourself and our self-esteem, and that's why it will affect our relationship so much.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, because I I've I I've never felt shame of another one. Like I've never felt you almost can't feel shame on behalf of someone else. I might feel embarrassed for someone, or I might be, you know, if I'm honest, there's been times where I'm I have been embarrassed by the behaviour of someone that that I'm connected with or associated with, but it's actually my own shame. You can't actually feel shame of another. I just have that insight then.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Right. But we can empathize with someone's shame, and why our relationship becomes such a potent container for our shame is because shame can be healed, integrated in relationship because often it's when we're being held, being loved, being witnessed in this emotion that helps us resolve it. And that's why being vulnerable and opening up, being willing to name that we're not feeling enough, that we feel like we're broken, that we feel like there's something wrong with us, and then being loved through that which we've experienced and we've supported couples to have the skills, have the understanding to be able to do that for themselves, it is immensely healing and intimate. It's so connecting.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Absolutely, and I think the other reason why it's so essential that a couple learn how to navigate this topic is because the nature of intimate relationship involves sex, and in I haven't met a human yet who doesn't have some kind of shame around sex, whatever that looks like. Even those people who are really like all about sex, if they're actually really conscious about it, it's because they've done a lot of shame work, so it's it's necessary.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yeah, agreed. And unless we are willing to turn towards and investigate our shame, it will drive our behaviour, and that's why this is so important to address before we look at the behaviour of pursuer and distancing, is because what's driving a lot of that behaviour a lot of the time is our shame response, and what I mean by that is the vast majority of us have reflexes, we have patterns of behaviour and even thoughts to avoid feeling shame, or if we feel shame, we may collapse and uh fuse with that shame where we feel like we're pathetic, we're useful, it's what nothing we do is ever gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Sorry, did you say useful? Useless, you mean useless.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

And just in so that the um listener doesn't get confused. Well, I'm confused because we feel useless. We might feel ashamed, we feel useless. You said useful.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

What an amazing opportunity to practice me being okay with stuffing up. Yeah. Right? So, what an amazing opportunity. Thank you, babe, for pointing out my inadequacy. And this is an opportunity for me to nurture myself with self-compassion and know that I'm enough. I don't have to be perfect on this podcast for it to be valuable.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Well done. And I just actually really want to take a moment because in the past, if I had done that, I think you would have like you interrupted my flow.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

100%. That's why I'm celebrating myself right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

I'm just saying that to the listener, but also that just so you know, I wasn't trying to be perfect, it's more just in case that um listener was confused because you said useful. So that's why I said it.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Well, my my honour and my commitment to this podcast is to let go of my perfectionist.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Awesome, babe.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Because perfectionism is one of the ways that we as human beings try to get away from our shame. And I was already noticing that sitting here listening to myself, listening to Grit.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

I could hear my inner perfectionist going, oh and what's the antidote to perfectionism? Do you remember the turn?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

What's wrong with you? Wabi-sabi, babe. Wabisabi.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

We'll explain what that is.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Well, it's the Japanese philosophy. Now, for any Japanese philosophers, this is not my forte, but it's a concept that I love. Wabi-sabi, it's good enough is good enough. And so if there's in the whole podcast, if the one muck-up that you say is useful instead of useless, wabisabi, babe. It does not matter.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Well, wabisabi is the beauty in imperfection as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Oh, is it? Okay, yeah. As I said, I'm not a I'm not a perfectionist of Japanese philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

I only remember that because wabisabi came into our lives when we were renovating the caravan.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Oh, yeah, of course, it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

And it wasn't going so well, but it was good enough, and wabisabi was there was the beauty in the imperfection. And I think that speaks beautifully to being in relationship because we explain this uh to all the couples that we work with is that there's stages of relationship, and quite often in the first stage in the romantic phase, in the honeymoon phase, we kind of either ignore, brush over, or don't even see our partner's imperfections, and then after a period of time when the bonding hormones have settled down and we're starting to see this person for their humanness, uh, it can often be that time of reckoning for a couple where they're not sure if they want to commit or stay, and quite often, yeah, it's the humanness that is arising. And do we embrace this person for for their gifts and their their weak weaknesses, their flaws, their insecurities, and celebrate them for who they are and their wholeness and and commit to working through and developing those aspects of self that aren't as polished, that aren't as enlightened or loving, you know, to do that work together.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

And I actually love that Wabisawi has come in because this reminded me it's the Japanese art form, right? It's when the vase is broken and it gets as I'm remembering now, and that that is actually a beautiful metaphor for relationship women for our own wholeness. And literally, just in the last 24 hours, I said to you, I was looking at something around my mothering where my whole my self-identity around who I am as mother and capacity as mother, I was just taking it all apart and being prepared to really not know who I am as a mother. Am I completely disillusioned or am I this? And I was and so now I can see just in this last 24 hours, as I've allowed myself to be taken apart, and these pieces have come together and and the the seeming, the bond between that, that gold elixir, I can feel within this myself, it's this whole new level of um containment and knowing as to who I am as mother, and that's because I was willing to go into that very vulnerable place of going, fuck, have I like totally fucked up and do I have no idea? And then when we're allowed, when we allow ourselves to do that and really sit in the shame, and thankfully you really held me in that, and then I came into that own space. So that's kind of I wasn't expecting to share that, but as you know, we always like to share on what's real and alive in us, and that's that's the wabi sabi. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

And so before we go off topic too much, it's important that we make a distinction on exactly what we're talking about here with shame because it's very easy to shame shame and think of it as a negative emotion. Uh, if you've caught up in the NLP world, you'll probably come across coaches that will go, eliminate your negative emotions, which we disagree with. We believe that every emotion serves a purpose, and when it comes to shame, shame is actually a socialization mechanism. There's a tool, there's a very important role within shame. If you think of someone who would be described as shameless, quite often they're very narcissistic, quite often they're a psychopath, they don't have remorse, they don't have a conscience, they don't have empathy. So, as difficult as shame can be to feel and move towards, it's not a negative thing, it helps us be social relational beings, and because it's a social mechanism, how we take on shame, it's through others, it's through our family, our social network, uh, the community at large, our tribe. So when we're young and when we're forming a sense of self and an identity, and we don't have one, we look to others, we look to the external tribe around us to get a reference for who am I. And when our behavior or when our expressions get uh mocked, get belittled, get ignored, uh, or put down, then we will internalize that and think that there's something wrong with me. And that is really the core belief of shame. There's something wrong with me, I'm not enough, I'm not man enough, I'm not woman enough, I'm not good enough. And we all experience this to some degree. The reality is we're all born into unenlightened family systems who are doing the best with what they know, yet our authentic self will inevitably at some stage not be nurtured. It might be too much, or our expression might be too much, and we're told to quieten down, uh, or maybe we stumble and fall and hurt ourselves, learning to ride a bike or something, and our parents have a strong reaction, and they're projecting their own insecurity, their own fear, and we think oh, I shouldn't have done that. You know, there's so many ways that this shame comes about.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah. If you can see me, I've I see you keep looking at me, and it's because I'm having a very somatic response. Because I was just tuning into when you were talking about we're shame, and that's that uncomfortable feeling, and it really is one of the most uncomfortable feelings to have, and many of us, including myself, feel it in my base, my sacle, my solar plexus. It's this sense of like I'm unsafe, uh, it's it's unsafe, there's something wrong with me, and I'm powerless, and and um who I am, I I'm at risk of being shunned in some ways. And when you said that, I'm gonna go there. Uh I really thought, okay, where's the moment where I felt the most shame? Because I was trying to recall it in my body, and now I can feel it, right? My mouth is dry, my heart is pulsing, and this is why I started breathing deeply. I don't know if you notice, because this is what happens to me more so in women's circle when I'm revealing something or when I've spoken something to Aaron. And so, thank you, body, thank you, spirit, thank you, my own trauma and experience with shame because it's really coming up to be shared here. And for me, it was when I was uh 19 and I was on exchange. Aaron knows this story. I'd been on exchange in France for a year. I had fallen in love with my first partner who was 10 years older, he was my first sexual partner, and I noticed I had I had like what I thought was a spider bite on my groin, and it was really sore and itchy. And I showed a family member over there, she was older, and she took me to the doctor. The doctor told me it was a herpes sore, and I was like, and it was in French, so the French word for herpies is herpes. Because whatever I say in French sounds sexy, not that one. So see see your comment then that triggers a little bit of shame in me.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

You know, and it's like it's it's this um it's this thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

It's not because of the word, it's it sounds like her piss. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you. It sounds like her piss.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

It's perfect, says Lamination, we're gonna take everything personally, right? So then thank you. And so what happened is I went to the doctor, he told me that I didn't get a blood test or anything done because it was kind of clear. And this is the day, this is time back before the internet, so I couldn't Google it. I hadn't, I mean, I'd kind of heard of it because it's always in jokes in like South Park and so many movies, but I'd never thought of it. And this is my first sexual partner, so you know, I wasn't like I'd it just wasn't anything that I thought I would ever need to experience. And when I came home from the doctors, I walked in and it was like with my host auntie, and there was like her husband, her mother, so the grandmother, two other aunties, and one other uncle in the room. And we walked in, and my auntie said, Oh, it's herpes in front of everyone. And I remember just like I just being like mortified, I was so mortified, and I remember going home and telling my boyfriend at the time, and he was like, Well, I've never had it, no, you know, none of my partners have had it, like, I don't know where you got it from in this sense. I mean, this was not a conscious relationship, and I remember being at 19 and I didn't tell anyone, I didn't tell anyone over there, and I think the first person I told was about maybe two or three years later, it was my dad. I still remember we were hanging out the washing, and I had this all this stuff coming up, and and I talked to him about it, and he was great. And then I remember it took me years to tell my sisters, and I didn't tell them, it was literally it was seven years later that I told my sisters, and so I was like, okay, I've got to tell you something, and I had that same thing. And I also want to note in this moment that I have no somatic response happening now, and this is the beauty of shame when it comes up. Obviously, I just had another level layer come up, but when it comes up and we speak to it and sit it and feel it, and allow the energy to come up and speak to what we need to uh as long as it's safe, and I'm just assuming that all the listeners here are safe, a bit of an assumption there, but um, it passes, and so that's the thing with shame. It's this willingness to go in and feel it, to express it. And I don't need to go any more into that story because I think I've shared what I needed to about.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Well, I want to just there's a few really key points around shame and how people respond and react to it and the delicacy of the discernment of who you reveal your shame with and to. Because this is huge. If you reveal your shame and your vulnerability to someone who cannot hold it, oh, it will just amplify it, it'll just make it worse. So, first of all, I heard, you know, considering you'd only had one sexual partner at the time, and then your boyfriend at the time just completely denying it, would you say that he was lying?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Well, maybe, or maybe he had just he hadn't had it, because people can carry it and not you don't have it.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

No, I know.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

You know, so what I'm well so people can carry the virus but not actually have sores.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, well I So I do believe that he'd never had a sore.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Well, I thought when I heard that, I thought that his reflex was just to straight out deny it.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I don't think I never saw him have a sore, so and we were together for two years.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Well, that is one of the ways that people respond to shame is just straight out denial. And it's not that they're necessarily a vindictive person or got bad character. Uh it's that quite often when someone isn't really wanting to accept something about themselves or something that's happened to them, they will often do whatever they can to push that away and to just kind of get on with it, and they think that that's a way of coping, and in some ways it is, uh, but the the issue festers under the surface. The second thing I wanted to ask you about is tell me more about that process with your sisters. Why did you know, or why did you feel so compelled to get it off your chest?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

I knew that I was holding it back for fear of judgment, and when I mean what was that costing you? Um so ultimately it's costing me my full expression, so which ultimately um limits my connection because there's some kind of veiling, and as you said, there is absolutely a time for discernment around this. Um but yeah, if I notice there's something that I want to share, so this is if I notice there's something that I want to share, but I don't for fear of judgment, and I there is a deeper part of me that knows that this is a safe person, you know. And you know, before you and I were together, I let you know that I carried the virus and I knew that I needed to do that for me, and so again, it's like because of this desire for honesty. That's why that's why I should I also think that holding on to it becomes a burden. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Wouldn't you agree?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

And that's one of the costs of holding these things in that we're ashamed about, is they just become burdens to us. And they become heavy and they dull us down. It just becomes an emotional weight that we've got to carry through life, and you can see people that are heavily burdened by shame like they're They hunch over, they hide from the world, they're they don't you know, they struggle to look people in the eye, and y you know, this is one of the symptoms of recognizing when shame is up, and just take this one into your life and relationship, is if you're struggling to look someone in the eye, it's uh highly likely that you're experiencing shame. It's really hard to be seen in our shame, but holding that eye contact is really essential in bringing resolution to it and knowing that we are lovable, we are okay as we are in our humanness.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah, and I know in deep shares that we've had when we've been doing deep shame work together, that it's that whole like look at we don't say look at me in the eye, but when we sit down, we're looking at that, it's so hard. It's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I remember being in a session with a couple session with Robert Augustus Masters, and my shame was really up, and I just it was so hard. He was guiding it and facilitating it so well. And RIP Big Dog Masters, God bless you, brother. But I just remember so viscerally how difficult it was to look at you. I don't even remember what the shame was about anymore, but I just like it was so hard to look at you in the eye. And yeah, uh we s I see it uh quite often in in men's work. You know, this is something that we often work with uh in men's work is getting to the core and root of our shame for many reasons. But ultimately, shame is a burden, and it's not one that we need to carry alone or or should carry alone. Our partner's imperfect, we're imperfect, let's love each other through our imperfections.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, absolutely, and again, there is a time for feeling remorse, and there is a time to taking responsibility and really recognizing that we fucked up, we've made a mistake, that you know, and that's particularly when we've done something wrong or something out of integrity, I think is better word when if I've acted out of integrity, it's like, oh I did something like like I read a message of yours that you you had the other day. I don't normally read your messages and that we don't hide anything from one another, but there was a message and it kind of caught my eye, and it wasn't about anything I had, you know, it was it was nothing, but I when you walked in, I I realised, oh, I was just reading a message, I hadn't actually asked your permission. I noticed uh when that happened, I I don't think I voiced this that I had a bit of shame about that because I realised oh I acted out of integrity there, and I named it to you in the sense that I said I I read your message, I didn't mean to, it's just it was there.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

But this is an important opportunity to name the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame. Yeah, like healthy shame is I did wrong, but I'm not a bad person, I'm not uh deficient, there's nothing wrong with me, I just did something wrong. Yeah, toxic shame is I did that thing and I'm a piece of shit, I'm uh pathetic, what's wrong with me? Why do I always do this? Yeah, you know, the the voice of that inner critic is fueled, the emotional fuel of the inner critic is shame.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

A hundred percent, and I would just if I go back to the herpes um example, that that was a deep, deep toxic shame, the sense that I didn't I didn't do anything, and I remember seeing it because I had so many therapy sessions, and I remember talking to someone who's just saying, I just feel like I don't deserve it. It's not like I was you know, I caught it from the first person I had sex with, and I remember her saying, even if you'd had sex with 50 people, you still don't deserve it, you know. And and I remember my when I talked to my dad, and I just said I just feel so dirty, and he was like, You're not dirty, Grey. And uh again, so even if we didn't do anything, but something there's something within us, there's something that's wrong, inherently fundamental wrong within us, that I myself felt that there was definitely a part of me that was broken. So it's not always an action.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

And and I'm conscious not just to talk about us the whole podcast, we we will get to you know how shame shows up in relationships, and you know, before we go there, I just want to I'll just run through some of the ways that you know my own shame has showed up in my life and the impact of that because you know, from a man's perspective, what can induce shame it can be different. Uh, for me, it started right back at my birth. I had a traumatic birth, I was uh over two weeks overdue, the placenta had died, the core was wrapped around my neck, I was lucky to be born and then rushed straight to emergency. And so from the very beginning, my entry into this world, there was something wrong with me. There my there was something wrong with my body. The doctors gave me the nickname of the hundred-year-old baby because all my fat stores had been eaten up and I was all wrinkly, and so from the get-go, there was something wrong with my body. Uh I was sick, I was on antibiotics for the first three years of my life, and that caused an immense amount of stress to my parents, and then they inevitably broke up when I was four. So for me, shame has been a heavy burden that I've had to carry and continue to carry for my whole life, and that what I would describe as pre-verbal shame, before I could talk, before I even have conscious memory of it, has been such an insidious how would I describe it? Insidious Jevilhood.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Um predominant, omnipresent, perpetual.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Well, yeah, it's just like a festering wound that has influenced how I've thought about myself, my preoccupation with how others are perceiving me or whether I'm being accepted or not. Yeah, so there was the the pre-verbal shame, there's something wrong with my body, you know, as a boy, a young man, and still today uh I continue to battle with like I would call it like a mild case of body dysmorphia where it doesn't matter how healthy I am or what's going on, I always look at my body and like will look at its imperfections and its flaws and what's wrong with it, and it's just like there's a part of myself, I wouldn't say it's my whole self, but there's a part of me that's like kind of obsessive at pointing out and looking at myself in the mirror and trying to find what's good and what's not, and I've had a lot of difficulty in taming that part of myself. There was uh being broken up with in grade six out of nowhere with my first love. Juliana.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Hello Giuliano. I've heard lots about you.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

But that first love, um you know, pre-pubescent time, just had no awareness at all of any relational dynamics. Not it's not like I grew up with healthy relational dynamics in my family system, and then out of nowhere she just like broke up with me, and it just absolutely tore me to shreds. Like I can remember going home and just yeah, going crazy, like throwing my toys around, bashing the couch, crying, angry, and yeah, just feeling completely devastated, and how that impacted me moving forward was a real lack of confidence uh around girls and women that I was particularly attracted to because there was just this deep-seated fear that they were gonna hurt me in some way, so yeah, that shame impacted my confidence massively. Uh look, the list goes on, you know, not being accepted and embraced by my stepfamily, being the black sheep of the family. Honestly, there's been so many ways in which shame has been a burden for me, and and what I've come to see in retrospect is how much those childhood and adolescent shame traumatic events really propelled me and fueled my behaviour and motivation to be something special, to be extraordinary, to uh prove something to the world, to my family, and to myself ultimately, so that as a young man I partied really hard and had a bit of an ego in going harder than anyone else and trying to prove something. I'd push my body in the gym. I did one course of steroids at the age of 20 to try prove something, to try make my body fit an image of being enough that was you know imposed by society standards. Then there was around the career and trying to be something special and proving something there as well. So really trying to prove something has been the big behavior. It's trying to prove something has been the behaviour that uh has ultimately been me unconsciously trying to get away from my shame. And when Greer and I were first in relationship, I didn't even have a language for what shame was, which is crazy to me to think back that there was a time in my life as a young adult that I didn't even know what it was because it was driving me incessantly unconsciously.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah, and I think what's really interesting is that it didn't look like that from the outside. It looked like you're incredibly confident that you were a full of self-belief, and I think this is the great um danger of shame, is that it actually makes us extremely vulnerable because fortunately you didn't get too far down that cult, but the the men's empowerment cult.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Oh, that's because the the the leader was also a raging narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Well, yeah, but you know what I mean. Like I think when someone is especially when it's in our unconscious, which shame often is. I know I had until we met, I mean, I knew that was the herpes thing, I knew that was my eating disorder thing, but I had um I didn't I didn't really have language around shame, I didn't have the awareness that that's what that was. Um maybe, but not really. It wasn't until we were in relationship doing the shame work. But I didn't realise how much it was shame that was driving all of my shadow behaviours and the things that weren't serving me, and it's because I was wanting to get away from that feeling of sitting with something's wrong with me, and it's not okay for me to be who I am, for me to express the truth of who I am. I also had a need to be something special and to stand out and shine so that I would be good enough, so that I would be loved, and I'm either the best or I'm nothing. You know, there was no in-between. And so again, that made me vulnerable for to for lots of things and for not feeling safe to say speak my no and to you know making big commitments that weren't actually my truth, and that's because I didn't feel safe in who I would that solar plexus energy and the base and the sacral weren't actually really healthy and and feeling solid and whole, integrated.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Yeah, yeah, and what you said there, babe, uh, around you know, I'm either special and high and mighty or I'm I'm nothing. Yeah, that is such a great way of explaining like the the two ways that we can go when shame is activated, and this is where it becomes relevant uh for relationships, for life in general, but also relationships, because as a reflex to get away from that shame, that inadequacy, some of us will get entitled, will become righteous, um, and aggressive, and this is a common one, particularly for men. They'll get aggressive, and it on the out outwardly it looks like they're being powerful or they're trying to you know dominate. What isn't so obvious is so often it's a way of getting away from an inadequacy or feeling powerless or not enough.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Oh, to be honest, babe, I with the women that I work with, I think it's I think it's also very predominant in women, and this is where but for women it might look more like aggression, control, and criticism.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

And yeah, I guess I was thinking more historically to tie it back into patriarchy. You know, something Terry says in patriarchy, men are allowed to feel two emotions, and that's lust or anger. So, you know, historically that's kind of the emotions that men were allowed to feel within patriarchy, but sure um totally hear you that you know many women also yeah get aggressive as a way of avoiding their vulnerability. And you know, sometimes that aggression it's not always uh harsh, sometimes it can just be sneaky sarcasm or belittling or you know that overt power over can be it sometimes it can have a facade of nicen, sure, but yet the other person still puts themselves slightly above or better than the other, even if it has a an air of nicess and formality.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah. And so would you say the opposite of that is more coming into like emotional disconnection and just that walling in of the self?

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Sure. Well, yeah, the so often when we get fused with our shame, like we collapse. Uh we we go within because it's so often that reflex where we go into the more grandiosity, the aggression, that's the reflex away from our shame, trying not to feel it, but then if we collapse into it and we fuse with that shame, then we will think, What's wrong with me? There'll be contempt for the self and we'll collapse and go within. And a good way to recognize where shame is prevalent is if there's blame. Blame and shame are two sides of the same coin because if we're blaming the other and our fingers pointing out, then we're blaming and shaming them. If that ping finger is pointed back itself and we're blaming and shaming ourselves, then we'll collapse and go within. They they lose their capacity to attune to the other person to think, Well, how is this for you? Uh how are you in this? Like, I can think of a client, he he would explode as his reflex, his reaction when he was feeling inadequate or vulnerable, and then he would fall and collapse into shame when he'd realised that he was aggressive and he'd and he'd go within and oh fuck, what's wrong with me? And he'd collapse. And when I was working with him, I pointed out that I with compassion. I did this very gently. I said, Brother, you're still thinking about yourself, you're still oriented towards yourself here. Yes, I can see that you're feeling remorse, but you're not attuning, you're not looking up and connecting with the other person.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah, and that's where the relational piece comes in because shame will exist within relationship. We both still have moments where shame can come in, but the difference is being able to come in and share that with our partner, you know, and we may use a shame word or it it may just be explaining that you know the deep aspect of what's happening for us or the inner narrative that we've got going on, but there's an awareness that I'm feeling something that's uncomfortable, and there's something that I need to share with you, and that's where we do bring in those communication skills. So that but again we need to be able to wear that that's that's the feeling, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah, yeah, and I can think of an example early on in our relationship where you know you were innocently asking me about a topic that was sensitive for me, um, but we didn't have as the irony, I was about to say, as good a relation um communication skills. I was gonna say gooder. As good a relation communication skills. Ah, committing to the imperfection. Uh I can think of an example early on in our relationship when our communication skills weren't as good as they are today. And yeah, you came in and opened up a topic that for me was deeply personal, deeply vulnerable, and the the safety within that conversation hadn't been established, and I got aggressive. I no, before I got aggressive, I was trying to hold it all in, and so you know, we'll go more into this in the next podcast around the pursuer distancer. But in that moment, it looked like I was withdrawing and it looked like I was being avoidant, but really I was like can doing my best to contain myself. You were driving, I was driving, that's why I'm doing this. I was driving and I was gripping the wheel and I was holding it in, and you know, if there was a fly on the wall, that'd be going, oh he's distancing, he's avoiding. But no, I was like holding in my rage, yeah, and that rage again was a defense reflex, a mechanism against me feeling that vulnerability and that sense that I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's a good example too that we can hold shame about things. Like I remember when I first told you I had herpes, you were like just like okay, yeah, it wasn't a thing, and I remember it taking me so much, like months prepared for telling you for months.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

I know I still remember it like you built it up, and you were I'm like, What is this gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

So, but again, it's because my inquiry, I I didn't see anything to be ashamed about. Like I was just like, I was innocently inquiring because I didn't consider it something that you would be ashamed. That's also about you know, I didn't know you as well as I know you now, but then that's the other thing with shame is that we could hold shame about something that's deeply deeply shameful for us and deeply personal, whereas for another it's just not a big deal and it it's tricky, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, like I've I've got one of my best friends, um, he has no body shame at all, and when I've shared my struggles around my body shame, he's just like, oh like I've never even thought about that. Green knows who I'm talking about. To be fair, he's got a bigger body, yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. And and for me, I I just couldn't even imagine not having body shame. I was like, I couldn't even imagine a life where it's not a thing. Like that's how strong that body shame has been for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and yeah, another one that we mentioned it in the the sexuality podcast of how shame will get really entwined and start to distort and create issues in our sexuality as well. This is one of the ways that we try to feel enough, or there will be in many ways that we will feel shame about our bodies, about our genitals, and yeah, that also impacts how we show up uh relationally in the sexual domain as well. But if we're not realizing that that it's actually the shame being triggered, then we miss out on the opportunity to to heal that in relationship. And that's why sexuality can be so liberating and healing is when we have the the courage, when we create the safety within one another to to honour when that shame comes up, and we can help heal heal it within one another.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Absolutely, and actually we haven't discussed this, but do you think it's possible to heal shame solo on our own? think we can yeah no because it's that it's a social mechanism that we we learn shame in relationship we learn shame in relationship to others and how we are or are not uh appreciated accepted embraced yeah I'm I'm just sorry yeah so I'm just thinking of some of and again we're sharing these examples not because we think we're particularly interesting but because shame heals from hearing another's truth and in that honesty and being seen for ourselves so I just want to put a caveat there but I remember one of my other shame pieces around sexuality was one of the probably the earliest moments I felt around shame and this was uh I don't remember anyone else else being there but I remember like back in the day when we used to get catalogues and I've shared this with you that uh like catalogues for back back then it was like Venture and uh Harris Scarf anyone who's my age was but I remember just I would look through and there were like when it got to the bit where there were men in undies and women in bras and I remember like when my puberty was just coming on and feeling like starting to get this tingle I would say and feeling like oh what's that not knowing and yeah not I never spoke that to anyone and then also I remember finding like looking at girls and thinking they were pretty and I have quite a lot of homosexuality in my family and I never had any judgment towards that but I remember thinking oh god I think there's some girls that I think are pretty am I homosexual and this fear of like loves it so stay focused so this feeling of oh and then again I remember in my twenties or so you know again on drugs and kissing a girl once and and then telling my high school you know my friends and then going and one of them made this comment and saying oh I thought always her words were I always thought you were a bit leso and I remember this like shame of like oh it's not okay for me to follow my desire my attraction and that I need to you know and it's thankfully babe thank you for being the person to help me with this it's like being able to be honest about those the different spectrum of of desire and how that looked for me at different times in my life that and you holding that quite happily yup so again that has healed in in that way yeah yeah and I think as we we move towards wrapping this up really shame inhibits our authentic self yeah you know our truth and I shared something with you only days a few days ago that I don't think I'd shared with you before like you know just to give another example of what I would describe as relational trauma.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

It's not a big tea trauma that's like sexual abuse physical abuse like a house burning down you know they're they're big tea traumas. Relational traumas can be something like going to your father and saying Dad when I grow up I want to play AFL and him going well you know there's a lot of people doing that and you know it's pretty hard to get in maybe have a think about something a bit more realistic realistic and as a six year old boy just feeling so deflated and like oh I can't be me. I can't there's something that I'm not good enough to to go for what I really want.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

I've just yeah well it's a fine no one to two little six year old Yarron. But it's a that's a really good example because your dad was wasn't being nasty he wasn't being malicious he was being very real and honest and you know like well you know you could but again if we don't have these relational skills isn't it even as parents it's you know and we can do both we can we don't have to give our child an inflated self-esteem which is equally unhelpful so you can do anything you want and you want to be an AFL player you'll be one but it's more I was talking to my daughter about it who loves acting and singing and she just saw the line king and I said well babe I really believe that if you really commit to it and practice you could absolutely do something like that if you work at it as opposed to you know and I said and I said to her I don't know if you'll be in get into Hollywood I don't know if you wanted no I don't I do not want her in Hollywood um and she said oh thanks mum and I thought no I mean like you could like maybe but I'm saying you could definitely go big and sorry I mean yeah it's it's all now I'm like questioning that or should I have not said that but we can meet we'll find out when the therapy bill comes in do you remember the time when I was 12 and you said that well I you know before we do wrap this up I think it's a really important point there that you know yes shame can be deflating but just to speak to that parenting point the other way that parents can affect us negatively is a false empowerment where we're given too much power before we're developmentally ready.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

And that is also another way that it also impacts how we show up in relationship. Because it will feed our grandiosity and uh not ground us into our empathy.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

And what that could lead to I think is that if someone has been falsely empowered as a child and then they have this false you know sense of self or is um inflated sense of self is when they get grow up and get into the real world and realize oh I'm not going to be in the AFL if I'm not this person that my let's say your dad had or said yep it's it's already done mate it's done and and um then you didn't get in then your whole sense of worth could be attached to being the AFL player. And so then if it doesn't happen if that's been inflated then it's like well who am I if I'm not that I'm nothing.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

So I actually think that I suspect I don't have I haven't made a big case for this but I do believe that in the near future this false empowerment is going to become quite a thing for the younger generations because you know our generations have felt the burdens of shame and haven't wanted to dump that on our kids yet it's that whole pendulum analogy that we've shared in previous podcasts. It's like we've gone from being so shame based to being so like anti-shame and we just pump our kids up. Oh you're just amazing or um I've heard I've heard of parents going into teachers and just telling them ridiculous things because they don't want their child to feel inadequate. But the the thing is you've got to set your child up for being grounded in reality. That doesn't mean you shame them. It means you've got to prepare them for the world.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Reminds me we had friends over dinner on Friday night and we were talking about playing chess and I was was we've got 15, 12 and a six year old and I was talking to one of the mums and saying yeah like you know that like our six year old's pretty good but you know I play like pretty well and she was like oh I just play full full throttle with my six year old she's like oh yeah she's got to know how it works done love and jest but yeah that our kids need to learn that they're not gonna win every game and that they will and then and supporting them through the natural journey of that shame so they have that experience of like oh I'm they might maybe they go into the toxic shame I'm I'm not good enough like let's just use a light example like chess oh there's no point in me playing because I'll just lose and sit them with them and show them and guide them and teach them. Yeah and again like that's with kids it looks a bit differently but we can do that in relationship as well.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah it's and it's like building self-esteem based on merit. Yeah like not just pumping up and yeah yeah maybe all honesty we're going into parents yeah let's let's stop another way for us to embrace being perfectly imperfect.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Wubby subby that was just the piece of the vase it would turn around in that way so you don't see it.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Alright so just sitting in that vulnerability of yeah not being where do you feel it in your body bag oh in my solar plexus that's like that's the udanava you wanting to come out and be seen. Yeah all right strong finish strong finish so if you've been listening this far we thank you for listening this far and we trust that you've received some kind of insights and if you have we'd love to hear what were the insights and if you want to go deeper into meeting your own shame and starting to face it we've actually got a free resource for you.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

So we've got a pre-recording that is from a previous course that we taught many years ago now and it's a guided journey where I guide you into a somatic experience of shame in your body with the intention to learn to be with that and cultivate a new relationship with that shame. It's a powerful process is what somatic you know internal family systems is based on and this is the whole thing if we were to wrap it up with shame it's it's going to be within us as you saw I had another very visceral thing come up from 30 years ago that moment happened 29 years ago and so uh it will continue to come up but the more we learn to be with it and actually somatically be with it and allow it to move through us and then express what we need to express rather than going to the full uh narrative of it all then it does gradually integrate maybe it never goes away maybe it will but that's not really the point the point is to learn how do I meet it when it's here and when we do that in relationship we learn to know one another's pain body know one another's shame piece and then we get to support one another through that so if you like that recording message us email us connect at intimacy for couples.com and just say can I please have the shame process and we'll send it to you.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

And if you haven't already please subscribe follow us give us a five star rating it would mean the world to us we're really doing our best to deliver as much value and if you are receiving value we the way you can support us is just following us sharing it with someone who you think would appreciate and receive the value.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

And if you're not already subscribed we invite you to jump onto our email list. Aaron writes most of them admittedly and you can get that by just going on to intimacyforcouples dot com scrolling down to the bottom and there's a subscription link there. Alright bye