Ep.11 | Walled Off & Boundaryless: Getting Underneath Unhealthy Attachment

Why do couples keep falling into the same dynamic — one pursuing, one distancing — no matter how much they understand the pattern?

In this episode, Aaron and Greer go underneath the pursuer/distancer cycle to explore what's actually driving it. They also unpack why they tend to avoid using typical 'attachment theory' language. Because conflict and avoidance aren't just communication problems. They're the surface expression of something much deeper.

This episode covers:

— Why walled off and boundaryless are more useful frames than anxious and avoidant
— The two types of love avoidant — and why one is far easier to work with than the other
— How the amygdala creates associations that hijack the relationship (and what to do about it)
— The role of self-concept, shame, and relational certainty in fuelling the cycle
— What boundarylessness actually looks like — including the kind that doesn't look like weakness at all
— Why one person growing can create more friction, not less — and what that means for your relationship
— The difference between a wall and a boundary — and why it matters

Aaron and Greer also navigate a live moment of the dynamic playing out between them mid-episode — and use it as a real-time teaching on containment, repair, and coming back to the same team.

If you haven't listened to the shame episode yet, we recommend starting there
— it's the prerequisite for everything covered here.

— Aaron & Greer | Intimacy for Couples
intimacyforcouples.com.au

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. I'm Aaron.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

And I'm Griam.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And today we're going to be diving into the topic of how couples can resolve the issue of conflict and distance. It's a complex topic and it has lots of different dimensions. And as we were preparing for this podcast a few weeks ago, and this dynamic came up between us, the topic of shame and the issue of shame became really obvious and prevalent, and that's what led us to do the shame podcast before this one. And if you haven't listened to that episode already, highly recommend checking it out as a prerequisite for understanding why we can fall into the dynamic of pursuing and distancing or being walled off or boundaryless because a lot of the rhetoric and conversation in the conscious relationship space keeps tying back to secure attachment, and the two poles of that dynamic is labelled as anxious and avoidant. Now we tend to avoid using that specific language because sometimes it doesn't actually describe how the behavior looks on the surface. As someone who is more in the pursuer or boundaryless part of that dynamic, quite often that surface level behavior doesn't look anything like anxiousness. And one of the potential dangers or pitfalls of using that particular language is it can become a slant or judgment on someone's character. That particularly for the more avoidant person, they I see it a lot. People that fall into that side of the dynamic get labelled as selfish, entitled, arrogant, you know, or careless, which quite often, and we're going to go into this today, people that are walled off or distant or avoidant often have very good reasons for doing that. So we want to expand this conversation to bring more compassion and understanding for wherever you are on either side of that spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So when we were preparing for this podcast, as we do with all of our podcasts, is and whenever we're teaching with couples, is that we reflect on the teaching and how that actually plays out for us so that we can teach and share from a place of embodiment and real examples. And what we notice that in the dynamic of pursuer distancer, and that it often tends to actually play out more so with our relationship with our children. And so for those who listen regularly, you will know that we're very open and share very openly on the podcast when it's in relation to just the two of us, but if it relates to our relationship with others, we do keep that private. So that's okay. We just wanted to name that, and that these dynamics will often play out, yes, in intimate partnership, but often it's with kids, it could be with parents, it can be with co-workers, and so it's important to hear and listen out for the common patterns that you may find in relationships and know that we all tend to have our dominant patterns and reflexes that we'll do, but different relationships and different contexts will tend to bring out different dynamics, and this is why you might have the classic couple who get along really well and they're deeply in love, and then they'll go and meet the in-laws and they'll see their partner in this whole new light because when the partner's in the family dynamic, all these other things come out. So we just wanted to name that.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

And as I said in preparation for this podcast, we're looking at our own relationship and dynamics, and that's what actually made the topic of shame so prevalent and important to speak on because there was a moment where we'd had a few triggers between us, and I noticed myself kind of distancing and going and sitting in another room separate from where Greer was, and I caught myself in that moment recognising that I was walling off and I didn't really want to go into repair because I was feeling this sense of inadequacy, and my reluctance to go in and repair wasn't because I didn't care, it wasn't because I was being entitled and righteous, it was because I was afraid of triggering her again, and I didn't want to feel that inac inadequacy.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, and I noticed that I held back from going and pursuing you, and normally, you know, our dynamic is normally if something comes up, I like to go into it straight away. I process quite quickly, and you tend to need some space, and so again, there there is that healthy sense of having distance and taking space to regulate, and then there's a healthy sense of not avoiding and actually going in and pursuing for want of a better word, but it's it or sometimes it's just about the timing, also of it, and so I notice in that a new uh comfortability with myself of you needing to take space, and this is what will happen as these dynamics evolve into their dysfunctional um playing out and into the functional playing out, and then we recognize what we're doing, just as Aaron just shared in that moment, and understanding why we actually got that behaviour.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

What do you mean by functional playing out and dysfunctional?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Well, if you if I think of like if that same situation had played out really dysfunctionally, you would have taken dysfunctional space, I would have been in the other uh outside, and either I would have come in and just go, what's going on, you know, and tried to like find that fix it and and just get over the discomfort of disconnection, or I would sit there and ruminate and do an almost an internal pursuer within myself, what's he doing and why does he do that? And why can't he, you know, in that internal dialogue? So that's the dysfunctional playing out, whereas I see it as the more functional play out is for you to take space and take enough space for you to recognize, oh, I've got this feeling coming up, I'm hesitant, and then once you realize that you came to me, yeah, and likewise I took space, and I realized I could sense what you were doing, although I wasn't necessarily aware of the your full internal process. I knew that you needed to take space to regulate, and I knew that from our past conversations that the best thing I can do in that situation is just contain myself and not go into story and not chase you and just stay in my centre in my wholeness. So that's I'm I'm allowing the space, and I will do as much internal inquiry as I need to to just recognise what my you know taking 100% responsibility for my half in that moment is.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

There's a lot there.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Well, you asked me, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yeah, and I think you are aware of what I need from lots of different discussions and triggers, lots of triggers, lots of triggers, particularly around you wanting to fix quick quicker than I was able to process. And when that would happen, my my interpretation of you wanting to fix came it would trigger my like defensiveness. And because you were wanting to repair so quickly, or you're wanting to fix, that would bump up against my inadequacies because I didn't know what I was feeling, I didn't know what the trigger was about, and that sense of not knowing would make me feel like oh there's something wrong with me here, or I'm wrong because I don't know. And understandably, I'd get defensive and push away. On the other side of that, on the converse side of that, Greer also had a sense of anxiousness of wanting to repair because there was uncertainty in the dynamic, and this is something really important to understand is how dysregulating uncertainty is, and that's what is meant by anxiousness is that there's uncertainty playing out.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, and it's important to name that I can't ever remember consciously thinking I need to fix this, or even thinking I'm uncomfortable with this, I need to go in and resolve it. Certainly, I wasn't aware that I was anxious. So for me, part of the um increasing awareness of my own patterns is doing my somatic work and coming more in my body and noticing my body becoming tense or my palms becoming a bit tight and using my body to bring me uh into quicker awareness of the thoughts that are happening, but also it kind of points to why we don't particularly use a lot of the language that is used in relational psychologies because I know I don't always, and I think the listener doesn't always attach the the name of the syndrome, the function, the pattern with their actual behaviour, because as you said, it can look very different. Um, and I think it's also worth sharing that, and we were going to speak to this a bit later, but that something that you shared with me is part of the reason why you would then start to get like if I came in and was asking a question, part of the reason why you would get anxious is that you were interpreting my questioning as interrogation or as like kind of pointing at it, whereas from my perspective, often it wasn't a particularly big deal, like and so I would just be wanting to know or understand it from a place of curiosity. And you said that I'd have this look on my face. Yeah, it was a serious. concern, it's like it I'm concerned about something, like I'm putting my awareness around it, I'm wanting to understand it, and I again I know looking into my family system, how that feels to be on the opposing side of it. So I think that's a good little uh segue that, and I know I'm kind of veering off the the timing, but in terms of the conversation that if our partner is saying things to us, is like you do this or you look like this, or why are you getting so aggressive or angry, is to take a moment and actually ask, have I heard that before? Where have I heard that before? Is this something that I experienced as a child or that I was told in previous relationships? Because if it is, that points to some kind of pattern, and that's not about pointing the blame and putting it on ourselves, it's about being aware, all right, this is a pattern that I can actually identify. And the gift of that is that once we identify the pattern, we can then kind of go into undoing the the parts of that pattern that aren't working for us.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

I'm sitting here smiling because I'm actually noticing my own pattern arise here, and once again, we've got a brilliant opportunity for authenticity and unpacking something live on the podcast. As I move into this, I can feel my heart rate elevating. Because as you were sit as you were sharing then, Greer, I'd noticed myself shutting down. I noticed myself starting to wall off because I didn't feel like I was had any space in the conversation. I felt like I couldn't keep up with there were so many different threads that I wanted to speak on, and you'd moved on before I had an opportunity to share or to connect with that. And yeah, I just could feel like this like inner boy, just like oh, I don't matter here. Your voice is more important, what you've got to say is more important, and so I'm just gonna shut down.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

And how do you feel having expressed that?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Much better.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

But this is actually a really classic dynamic that we were speaking about uh this morning in preparation for this. That there's often a dynamic in a couple where there is one person that just talks all the time and kind of talks at someone, and there's no actual inquiry or space for the other person to share, or when they do share, the other person immediately makes it about them again. And yeah, this is an example of boundarylessness. Like, boundaries aren't just what we say no to, boundaries also is a containment around ourselves and what we've got to share, and whether we overshare, or maybe our emotional expression is too much, and it floods the conversation or the dynamic, it makes the other person feel unsafe or unseen or unheard, and it's not necessarily about making that other person wrong or bad, it's about naming the impact of that behaviour. And in this way, you know, there's a concept we often use with couples called complementary opposites. So to the degree that one person is boundaryless, the other person might be walled off. And you know, I've got to learn to lower my defenses and boundary and speak up. And in this instance, you know, Gri put a bit more of a boundary around what she's saying or how she's saying it, and just creating a bit more space and attunement to the other person to bring them in. What's that bringing up for you?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Well what I find is that I'm doing my I'm doing my best to be present and hear you, and and I notice that in you sharing, I'm um yeah, I'm taking it personally. I feel like what you're sharing is pointing to me, and I think that part of it is pointing towards me, but what I notice that in me, the pattern there is that in me feeling a bit criticized or made wrong, that it's it's blocking me from really hearing what you're saying. And there's definitely a part of me that wants to say, and so she will say that maybe you did like a a great introduction at the start and spoke for a couple minutes, which was great, because that's what we decided, and that was part of it. I don't feel like I really spoke for more than what what you did there. So there's this sense of like, yeah, I did take up the the stage there, but you know, I didn't feel like I was waffling on or that what I was saying was irrelevant.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Well, I wasn't really comprehending a lot of what you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Do you think that's because you're in your own internal trigger?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

No, I wasn't comprehending and therefore I felt inadequate and I was shutting down.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

What are we gonna do about that?

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Well, that's what we're doing right now, talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Okay, so let's let's right, because this is what we do. So let's just tune in. Remember coming back to that practices if there is a kind of a bit of a dysregulation, a bit of a thing. Can you feel anything in your body right now? And maybe we just both take a moment to recenter and re-regulate ourselves coming back on like the same team.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yeah, yeah. I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, so the the thing is, babe, again, I wasn't making you wrong. I wasn't criticizing, I was just naming the impacts of that behaviour. And this has happened before in a another friendship, another dynamic where I was simply trying to point out the impact of this lack of relationality and the dialogue just being one way, and yeah, the other person took it really personally and couldn't hear what I was saying as best that I could. Not this is so often what happens when we feel criticized, when we feel judged, it will trigger that defensiveness and defensiveness again, what are we trying to defend against? A sense of inadequacy, a sense that there's something wrong. Again, that's the shame piece.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, defend against our lovability.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

So I feel like this is a really good opportunity to speak about this concept of containment and how it's different from suppressing. It's not denying our needs or denying our truth, containment is simply having discernment around how we express ourselves and how our expression impacts the other person. So containment is having a boundary around us, and it's not a wall. Think of a boundary as a gate, like a gate you can see over, it can open, it can close, but a wall is just walled off. It's solid, you can't see through it, there's unknown. A boundary is more relational. Boundary has a communication aspect to it, walled off is just stonewalled, shut down, push away. Why someone would be in that walled off position, most likely they're trying to protect themselves. They're trying to protect themselves from judgment, from criticism, from being blamed, not feeling enough. And when it comes to being walled off, quite often there's two types of person that will be in this position. There'll be you know a type one love avoidant, which is the person that grew up in a family system where people lived around walls. There was no intimacy, there was no vulnerability, everyone just kind of got on with what they had to do, and there wasn't a lot of space for emotions, and so intimacy is just kind of foreign. It's not necessarily that there's a lot of trauma, it's just that it's unknown. So moving out of that will still take courage because it's unfamiliar, yet that is easier to work with. A type 2 love avoidant is someone who's actually had their boundaries encroached and impeded upon uh in childhood, so there's actually a a deeper trauma there, and that boundary can be like psychically, like there could have been an emeshment or an emotional dependency on that child from a parent or caregiver, and so that's why they've got walls, or it could be you know more serious around abuse, sexual abuse, and that's why they've got high walls, strong defenses.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah, and I think also as you said, that you know, that trauma can be capital T or small T, but it's the um and the sense of like a family who is we do everything together, you know, we have meals together, we all go out together for a weekend, that sense of like encroachment of I just actually want to be able to have an independent voice and assert my independent will. And so again, that doesn't have to that family perhaps, and this is probably describes more of my fam origin, um, family of origin in the sense that we didn't have to do every everything together, but like we did do a lot together, but it wasn't I wasn't I mean, obviously as a child the term enmeshment wasn't in my vocabulary, but I never really felt like that. But what has happened is I've gotten older, and then we live with my mum and in the same house that I grew up in. Seeing these patterns just play out and recognising that there was this kind of inherent need to have meals together, and that there wasn't really there was a lack of autonomy, and it wasn't coming from anything negative, like consciously or mean, but it still has impacted the boundary and a sense of boundaryless. And what I what I will also share is that our need of boundary in terms of where we need to have our boundary, and again that could be up or down, but it can also be just the amount of space that we need. So perhaps I always keep my boundary here. sometimes I can have it out and allow more in and sometimes you know the moment I'm on my bleed and so I'm needing to have more space things a bit slower and a bit more sensitive I need to kind of put that boundary in a bit closer around myself so that it can also change not only up and down but also out and in and what feels good allowing in.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah and what really makes a boundary functional is communication. It's as simple as that as you know Greer mentioned something earlier around dysfunctional distance taking and that's simply distance taking with no communication. And again the impact of someone who goes or just disappears which I used to do early on is it creates uncertainty for the other person and so that uncertainty creates a dysregulation and suddenly they find themselves in a case of the more the more the more they distance the more the other pursues and the more the that person pursues the more threatening it feels and so the more the other person distances distances. And one of the things that we share with couples is you know if you do need space to regulate to come into your centre and feel safe that's okay just communicate it and you know that's a framework that we share on how to communicate that within awakened intimacy and it's something that's worked really well in our relationship as well because yeah I I grew up as an only child I grew up needing well just not needing but spending a lot of time by myself and that alone time is really regulating for me. So not only is alone time regulating being around high energy or big emotional expressions like I feel it in my nervous system like when the kids are yelling it I feel a shiver go up my spine and it's just like ugh and it's it gets overwhelming for me and you know early on in our relationship I would just see you later. I wouldn't even say see you later I'd just disappear and wouldn't tell anyone and you know the the thing around when there's uncertainty our partner can't help but just make up stories around why the other person shut down or taking space so the best thing that we can do to help them is communicate.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah and I think that's a really good example and I just want to clarify that you wouldn't just go away for days at a time you would just go into another room or something and I would be walking around where the fuck is Aaron going again playing out with the chickens or something and what I notice in that situation is that if myself as mother I'm there like tending to everyone's needs and then you disappear and and I feel like I'm talking to you but you're doing something else and I'm not being heard that will naturally evoke this boundarylessness because I'm here giving to everyone because I don't quite have the boundaries to say no or ask for help or perhaps I'm it just feels easier to do it myself so I'm just going to do it myself even though it's another thing I have to do and I know this is a really common dynamic that I used to have and that many mums have I can still fall into it sometimes and there is sometimes there is the reality it is just easier to do it ourselves and at the same time again if that becomes a dysfunctional pattern often it's actually subtly about control and so what I it it makes sense for a woman and I will speak as woman because I am woman a mother that if I'm having to give to everyone and there there isn't really that boundary and I'm feeling drained it makes sense that my communication also looks that like that and it might mean that then if my partner wants to talk to me I can't I actually can't do it. I'm so in this energy of just giving out giving out that I actually can't really hear what you're saying which will then lead you to feel like my needs don't matter. Yeah like your needs don't matter that what you don't which will then what would that lead you to wall off single off yeah which then yeah pursue pursue so again the more that happens and so this is how again that you might on on paper if we were to read about someone who is the mother who is giving lots she may feel that she's there just may be no awareness that she's being boundaryless in her conversation it's just because that's the way her energy is moving and it makes actually a lot of sense that that also flows into her communication until she becomes aware of that.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

And if I can just add on to that that because of that because of that continual giving it feels like and she is she's always putting herself last her needs don't matter and the the the opportunity there is to recognise that that without pointing the blame on anyone the impact of that dynamic of the pursue of the wall is that both people feel like their needs don't matter and that can be a point of commonality and coming together coming back on the same page like I feel like my needs don't matter you say I feel like my needs don't matter it's like oh they do you know and this like sense of yeah your needs matter you know both of our needs matter and it can actually become a bridge to connection other than defending well your needs don't matter and what about my needs not matters like that point of sameness can become the connection nice yeah and something else that I really noticed is how this sense of lack really feeds this pursue a distancer dynamic and that can be a lack of certainty or a lack of assurance like and it can also be a lack of self-esteem and and needing another person to feel whole. I know this was very real for me before coming into relationship I wasn't aware of it but I I was needy because of my own lack of self-esteem and needing another person to make me feel enough to make me feel whole and lovable and it puts this incredible weight on the relationship and will also feed into you know if that person has lack they are going to be boundaryless they they are going to put their diminish their needs for the sake of keeping the other person even if it's unhealthy because that fear of abandonment and having to face the lack of enoughness is scarier than having to put in a boundary.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Hmm yeah yeah absolutely I'm just contemplating because you used some words that I recently wrote about and but the it was kind of the complementary opposite for me in a previous relationship in that my fear of hurting the other led me to be boundaryless within myself that I my focus was on not hurting my partner at the time and keeping that boundary and that the relationship together at the cost of I kind of had to not quite dissolve myself but my own needs I had to kind of be become boundaryless in that and and focus the boundary around the relationship so that it would stay together.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

You know there's there's two people within a relationship and if those two people are their own little circle then if they're in relationship then there's a bigger circle around those two circles. Now if there's a lack in one of those circles whether it's a lack of self-esteem or a lack of certainty then that's going to impact the the strength of the container around the relationship what that brings up for me is I can remember like early on in our relationship when we had lack of certainty around our finances and I would be shut down and walled in because I was like stuck in my head I was feeling like I wasn't providing enough I'm not good enough as a man feeling like a failure and that that lack of enoughness in terms of my wholeness if that circle if I am a circle within our relationship that lack of wholeness would make me shut down that would create my own uncertainty and because I wasn't communicating what I was uncertain about because I didn't want to face the shame around it then that would create uncertainty within the relationship because you weren't certain around why I was so distant. Yeah and yet when you actually in those times and it was you know over a few years on and off in those times where you would say I just feel like I can't actually give you what you need or I don't feel like I'm good enough for you that was the type of language is that when you were honest about that if we were to give that two circle analogy what that gifted me is the opportunity to strengthen within myself so stay compassionate with you and loving to you but also and I don't know if I voiced this before but really actually well okay what if you weren't enough for me in the sense like what if that relationship did did dissolve and we weren't together and again we had many stresses playing into our relationship in the first few years there were a lot of things playing out and so the gift of you being honest and this is why that honest the truth and the love were those two sides of the same coin is that that would lead me to kind of go in within my own circle it's like well okay if this relationship didn't stay together and if I were to detach from that would I be okay would I be enough and that would strengthen my own circle and then because I'm not needing you to work out I'm not needing you to be man enough for me I can hold that wholeness within myself that puts less pressure on you from my end and less pursuing no come on da da da then that ultimately strengthens if you think of the yin yang as a symbol that like strengthens my part my half of the relationship which holds almost the template for that strength and then you would come into that uncertainty with in yourself and then because we've both come up within that ourselves we've got two strong holes then the collective whole is strong and then we've we go up another octave if you want of our relationship and the strength and what our relationship can hold and the degree of trust builds because it's safe for you to speak your doubts and I can hold that and then likewise when we have things where things come up with me I can speak that doubt to you and so yeah I feel like I've just spoken about lots of topics again you have I think what it really speaks to is the necessity for you know for a relationship to grow if there is a a lack of healthy self-esteem within the relationship then it's imperative that both people be working on that or it's going to impact the the well being of you know the container that is the relationship that holds those two people together in a healthy way. Yeah and it's if you finished a little bit yeah and so it points because I when I'm working with women individually I'm often although it may not be named it's really about self-esteem a lot of it and that that work is really about you know true self-esteem is actually about living as our truth because when we're actually connected to our deeper truth and we're living in alignment with our deeper values and who we are and what we really want our self-esteem becomes an inherent quality within us because it's not about what we can or cannot do or provide or receive or it's it's nothing of it's about us being ourselves and the self-esteem we're seeing us in our true lights we don't need to be better than or less than we're we're just who we are and again this it's it's so essential within relationship that both people do that inner work sure it's great if you can do that work together and you and you make that a part of your relationship but either way you both need to be doing that work because that creates that strength I I would say that I don't even know if it is possible to do that self-esteem if you are in a relationship and you're both doing the self-esteem work I just don't see how you couldn't do that together because you know to tie it back into distance pursuer you know they are behaviours that are arising as a result of a lack of self-esteem a lack of certainty security in the relationship so and this is why we say triggers are doorways not only to intimacy but healing and transformation so whenever notices that she is trying to fix or she's um being boundaryless and or I notice that I'm getting defensive and pushing away like that's the opportunity that pattern that behavior has arisen because there's an opportunity here to actually go deeper look at what's underneath the surface here what's the vulnerability yeah what's the inadequacy about where's this trigger coming from what's driving this behavior because then we can actually start to get to the root cause of our dysfunction whether it's a big T trauma or little T trauma reality is the more that we can integrate these parts of us that create the dysfunctional behavior as Greece said we can live as that true self our true authentic self which is the part of us that lives beneath the conditioning the roles the the trauma all of that egoic surface layer layer stuff is not only what impedes intimacy but it also becomes like the rich fertile soil to create intimacy as you work through it together.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Mm-hmm yeah and but no 100% I guess I'm in the I'm in the in the mind of of a listener who's like well yeah I want to do that but my partner's not doing that.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Well let's speak to it.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah so I'm bad so Aaron's right in that it's almost like how can you not do it in relationship? Plenty of people do it not in relationship plenty of people just the men just go to do their men's work and the women might do her women's work and when it's not there are lots of people who do that and as Aaron said you like you can do it but it's if you can do it within relationship that is a win like if your partner is doing the work as well bring it together and share deeply because you're going to get a whole new level of inside awareness if you're going through that in the daily life of living in partnership.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah I don't know I think I disagree because if we get wounded in relationship and this ties back into that conversation around shame and like if we were the only human being on the planet would we feel shame would we feel inadequate would we feel like we're not enough I would argue that no we'd just be completely accepting and free and exactly as we are so we we learn and get these relational traumas in relationship and so the medicine is in relationship as well. I totally 100% agree but what if someone's partner isn't interested in it well you can still work through some of your self-esteem issues for sure what it's gonna lead to eventually is that developmental friction.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Exactly that's where I was getting to yeah yeah do you want to speak to it?

SPEAKER_02 38:46

No no it's okay that's yeah and it's as simple as one person's growing and that means that they're working through their patterns they're becoming more secure in themselves they're not going to be as needy and that's gonna start to trigger the other person because suddenly they've got boundaries and it's like wait a minute you're not you're not feeding you've changed you're not feeding me what you used to give me what's going on and suddenly there's a a threat there's uncertainty in the relationship wait you're changing our dynamic is no longer giving me what it was and suddenly that uncertainty triggers their adaptive responses maybe that person starts to pursue more and you've got to have stronger boundaries it's like no I've been giving you and been boundaryless for 10 20 years and now I'm stopping and that's gonna be a big reckoning for the other person and it it doesn't make the other person wrong if they aren't willing to develop or they can't develop as quickly as the other person it's just how human beings are and that we've got our different um genetic makeup we've got our different trauma history and it can be really difficult if there is now a developmental friction and one person has evolved more than the other person to be able to relate to be on that same page it's unfortunately it is something we've seen quite a lot.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Hmm and and it certainly I'm like because I yeah I walk that path and that line you've changed I've been on the hearing end of that and it's true we we do if we grow we change and this is what what I know from the women that I work with and the women who are honest with me is that it's one of the reasons why they might not do that deeper work is because they're too scared of what will happen if they get really honest with themselves. Because by nature when we get real and we drop the veils and our shoulds and we actually get clear on what we want it we come into this deeper into the deeper core of who we are and so in one sense there's this deepening coming into centrehood and at the same time that leads us to expand what we want what we need expands what we're calling in expands and so there's this like concentric circles both going in and out and it means that as you share as you share things that used to work don't work things that were enough and no longer enough and that's it's really scary and the gift of of again doing that deeper self-work in terms of our self-esteem is that in that journey of becoming more centred within self and then also and more whole within the self and simultaneously getting really clear on what the vision for our life is and what we're wanting and this isn't about um you know I want to go you know I want to be on a sixth figure whatever it's just about like I want I know for me it was intimacy like I want intimacy in my life this like declaration I didn't know what I was doing back then but I know now I can see like energetic is I'm calling it intimacy in this like huge expansion this is what I want in my life from this place of deep self-centeredness and that meant I no longer went into those same relational patterns that I was doing I was no longer playing my part and so the relationship literally can't continue.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

It's either got to evolve and both of you upgrade and you come into a new way of relating or the discrepancy is too much and the relationship the the nature that container around the two people will dissolve and it's a scary journey it's a big it's a hero's journey heroine's journey and so again once again I've gone a bit off topic but I think it was this is how the boundaryless the world can actually look like in real life and in real life it's not as simple as saying oh you're boundaryless your pursuer your dissensor it's a whoa my life feels like it's falling apart because the boundaries that I used to chase and not have are dissolving and a whole new experience unfolds and that's unsettling and it creates a lot of unknowingness and final thing I'll share is that from that place of not knowing a deeper truth arises a deeper knowing and really you know what we're touching on here in terms of the self-esteem work and our relational patterns and and using relationship as a crucible like a container for transformation and healing is really like the core of what awakened intimacy is all about. You know it's about becoming more conscious, um bringing the unconscious to the conscious so that no longer drives Our behavior, and in this way, we actually evolve and we actually come more into the prefrontal cortex, and the amygdala is no longer running the show as much. This is maturing, this is growing up. Ken Wilbur says we wake up, we grow up, we clean up, we show up. Waking up is becoming more conscious, growing up is maturing, cleaning up is going into the shadow and clearing out all that trauma, and then we show up and we share the gold, we share the wisdom, and we lead others and help others to do the same. And I really believe in that model. And awakened intimacy is about walking the path of love, of truth, which will transform your life. Committing to your truth, your deeper truth, having integrity around your word and being honest, having the courage to dive into your your shadow and your unconscious patterns. It's a courageous path. It is not easy. It's not lovey dovey.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

But there are that's a there's that's a lovey.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

The payoff is worth it because it is lovey dovey when you when you do the work. On the other side of the intense triggers and the deep vulnerability and the intense shame. And look, I have compassion and understanding for uh particularly the men that aren't willing to open up and wake up in relationship because a lot of our conditioning frames vulnerability as weakness. I tend to forget that there is still many men living out there with that program. I naively think, oh, we've moved on from that, haven't we? But time and time again, I have men showing up with this foundational program that vulnerability is weakness and it's not. Vulnerability is the most courageous, integral thing a man can have because it's honouring the truth. It's honouring the truth within him and it's having the courage and strength to express it.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Yeah, and I really honour the the women out there who are are genuinely like almost terrified that if I actually really get honest with myself, I'm gonna it's gonna have too it's gonna have too much harm on people. And my and I don't judge that at all because it it's real, but it doesn't it doesn't have to mean the ending of a family, it could actually mean just you getting really clear on what you're really needing, what you're really wanting, and then you from that 70, and then you know, you kind of lift your partner and then you go in it together, and what I will share. And it for me, you know, a certain time in my journey there was a whole moment, and I won't go into the whole story, but I got really clear on you know, as mother, what is it that I really want to teach my children? And it was that I had two daughters, two young daughters at the time, and it was that that they know their truth and that they honour their truth, and if there's one thing that I teach them as their mum, that's what matters, and as I saw that with so much clarity, I knew that there was no way I could truly teach them that if I didn't do that myself, and that that is actually the most loving thing I could do for them. So I invite you as as as mum, if this is you, or as as woman, as man, it's like what is it? Like, what is that deeper truth within you? What do you want to be able to gift your children and your world, and how can you live that? And and then you make choices from that place. Becomes that inner compass. Yeah, yeah. So if you have something within you has stirred within this, and that you are in a relationship where you're both wanting to go in and do that deeper work, we invite you to book in a relationship clarity call and breakthrough session with Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah, because really at the core of it, it is mapping what your uh pursuer distancer dynamic is and getting really clear on what that is, the impact of it, like lovingly, the impact of it, and most importantly, what the strategy is for both of you to come back into more intimacy and connection and security because that pursuer distancer dynamic will look different for different couples because reality is I'm a bit of both. I do tend to get defensive and wall off, but I'm also a pursuer at times and have a bit of a neediness, a needy boy inside me. Yeah, and again, it's not about blame, it's not about judgment and making one person wrong, or that if only they'd change this is the common thing, if only they'd change, we'd be okay. It's about looking at okay, you're both responsible for your half of the relationship, you're 100% responsible for your half of the relationship. What's the work that you've got to do in your dynamic? And you know, to thread back into that dynamic that we spoke about earlier, where Greer would be genuinely curious, but I would interpret that as she's interrogating me. The work there for me is to contain that inner boy within me, my adaptive child, and to know that I'm not being interrogated, interrogated, there is no threat here. That's that's my work being 100% responsible, and then the work in that dynamic for Greer is to also just be aware of that in me and to see if she can soften her gaze or her expression when she is genuinely curious, so we can both help each other.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Yeah, and the really great thing about that particular call, the relationship clarity call, is that as you said, you do actually point out the dynamic and and let people know you know where where the work is for themselves, and it's offered at a 50% off at a normal call, and that is to give it's a really great opportunity to feel into what it is to to work with with Aaron or with us, but also you actually come away from the call with something, yeah. And if you're not in relationship or if you're in relationship but your partner's not quite ready for whatever reason, then we invite you. We also work with men and women individually. So I work with women, Aaron works with men, and so you can tee up a complimentary alignment call with us where we can see if if we're a fit for you. So if you're interested, you can just message us, you know, alignment call with Aaron, alignment call with Gria, or a relationship clarity call.

unknown 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Great. Well, thank you for your time, your energy. We really appreciate you listening and tuning in. Your time is precious. If you have any questions or comments, feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please let us know. We'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Peace out.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Bye.