Ep.12 | What It Takes To Go From 'On The Rocks' To Rock Solid - Interview with Jasper Brown & Nathalie Plass

What does it actually take to turn a relationship around?

Most couples hit a rocky phase at some stage.
For most, it means an ending — or settling for a stable kind of misery.

But what does it take to transform the conflict patterns, the pain and disconnection into something real, safe, and deeply intimate?

In this episode, Aaron and Greer are joined by two very dear friends and colleagues: Jasper Brown (Awakened Evolution) and Relationship Coach Nathalie Plass, both of whom have built their life's work around helping men and women wake up, grow up, and show up — and, most importantly also live that commitment inside their own relationship.

Their story is not a smooth one. It began in a high-control group disguised as a yoga school which included infidelity, eroded trust, and years of accumulated pain.

What brought them through it wasn't luck or simple compatibility — it was the willingness to do the work, together and individually, without knowing if the work would even keep them together.

In this conversation, we go deep on:

- Whether you can truly heal relational patterns on your own — and where the ceiling is
- The real reason blame never creates the accountability we're hoping for
- Shame vs. guilt — and why that distinction is everything in repair
- What it looks like when one partner does the work and the other doesn't
- The moment Natalie stopped staying for potential and finally chose herself
- How to name the pattern so you stop fighting your partner and start fighting the dynamic
- The difference between containment and collapse — and why both matter
- What "relationality" actually means and how it transforms conflict
- Why intimacy is a path of awakening

This episode is for couples who have been through something hard, for the partner who's doing the work and wondering if it's enough, and for anyone who's ever felt like the person they love most is somehow, in one instant, their greatest enemy.

If this conversation has stirred something and you're ready to understand the patterns running your relationship, book a Relationship Clarity Call with us at 50% off the full price. We'll map the dynamic, name what's driving it, and show you what it would take to shift it: https://www.intimacyforcouples.com/clarity 

Find Jasper: https://www.instagram.com/awakened_evolution/
Find Nathalie: https://www.instagram.com/nathalie.nimah/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Alright. Hello and welcome to Awakened Intimacy. I'm Aaron.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

And I'm Grimm.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

We're very excited today because we've finally got our very first interview with two very dear friends, Jasper and Nat. We wanted to bring them on because not only are they dear friends, but they're both deep in the work. And by in the work, what I mean by that is they're on the path of conscious relationship. And they're dear friends. Jasper and I both do men's work together. Natty has done some women's work with Grig. They both have very established, amazing businesses serving men and women all over the world to wake up, grow up, heal, and show up. And we're really excited to unpack what awakened intimacy is, how relationship is used as a vehicle and means to become better, to live with more love, live in more truth. And we're really excited to and honoured. We're really honoured to have you guys on today.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

So Jasper and Naddie, welcome. You two are both in the work of doing men's work and women's work individually, and you're in the well, in some ways, the I don't want to say real work, but you're also in the very uh deep work of living together in in relationship and living consciously. So I'd love you to start by sharing a little bit about your own story of how you've come together and what conscious relationship means to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

I'll go first, I guess. Um first of all, thanks for having us. It's great. We've been talking about doing this for a while, so it's really nice to sit down and finally get a chance to um yeah, to have this conversation. I feel like it's been a long time coming. Um yeah, and to tie it back to the topic, I think I mean we found our way into a conscious relationship because we started off with a very unconscious relationship. And through the dysfunction of that and the pain of that, and breaking up and making up and conflict and all of this sort of stuff, we were finally sort of forced to face what needed to be faced. And you know our story, it's been a pretty difficult journey for both of us, and we were part of a high control group for a number of years in the beginning of our relationship, and I was unfaithful, I was deceptive, I was kind of caught up in the power dynamics of that. Um, and that led to us um yeah, just having a really, really difficult start to the relationship. And since leaving that group, we've both sort of stepped into the work professionally, and also just both of us pursued in in our dynamic and in our relationship a way of moving from being wounded and dysfunctional and really struggling to connect and struggling to create safety um into a place where it feels really healthy and it's just continued to get better and better and better the do the deeper and more work that we've done.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Um, Maddie, do you wanna do anything else?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah, I think um like it is with with many couples, I think we really got into this work because we hit a wall and it was like it's either we do this work now or this is not gonna continue because of where it was at and the amount of pain that we had um kind of accumulated and how the trust was kind of eroded. So um yeah, in that way I think our story is quite powerful because we're kind of a like a living, breathing example of the fact that you can turn something around if you're committed to this work and actually yeah, looking at what's happening in the dynamic, but then also looking at what is happening um individually and working with your individual um pain and the patterns and the things that we carry. Um yeah, and I think in that way our connection is really powerful because it really is an example that it's possible to turn a relationship around even if there has been a lot of pain and dysfunction.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, so something that Greer and I raised on our last podcast is a a question between us, and I'm really curious to get your guys' perspective because you both work with men and women individually, and I'd assume some of them are in relationship and some of them are not. So the question we had is you know, is it really possible to do your like inner work and healing journey solo? Like, how how far can you go? Can you go all the way in your healing journey solo? Or how important is being in relationship to that journey?

SPEAKER_03 5:29

And and would you say if you're trying to heal a relationship dynamic of how much you need to actually like so let's just say I'm a single woman and I've had um you know, this I've recognised that I have a particular relational pattern that is playing out. Is your question saying, can I actually heal that on my own, just doing my inner work perhaps with a mentor, or is it really only going to kind of heal and integrate when I'm in relationship? Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah, like how far can you go with that by yourself? Yeah. Because I don't yeah, my perspective is there's a ceiling to that. But I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah. Um, so I think it's a it's an interesting um question because I work with women that are single and then also women that are in relationship or that have recently left a relationship that wasn't working. And um I think there's definitely something to be said about the work that you can do on your own, because at the end of the day, what I always look at in the work that I do with women is making safer relational experiences, and that doesn't always just start with the relationship that I have with other people, it kind of starts with what's the relationship like that I have to myself, how do I respond to certain parts of me and maybe parts of me that have been deemed unacceptable and my emotions and my needs, and I think in in that part of the work there is a lot of healing that can happen um on our own because there is a part where we're working on the relationship to ourselves. Um, and then at the same time, I do absolutely agree with um what you're saying that there is a a ceiling there because it there are parts of us, certain buttons that will be pushed only by another person, right? Only by um a person that we form a romantic attachment to, like a person that is close enough to kind of activate those fears and activate that kind of um even shame or pain that we might be holding there. So I do believe that there is a ceiling. Um and I think that the work that we do on our own is incredibly important to then be able to do that deeper, sometimes even more painful work that we then have to do in relationship with another person. So it's like there's a preparation that we in a way can do when we're single to get ourselves to a place where we're like, okay, now um that I found a person, I'm maybe um yeah, equipped to actually meet those parts of me that are really alchie in a way.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, I mean you basically just said everything I wanted to say, but um I was that hogging the mic, Jesus. Uh no, I was I I just jumped off a coaching call this morning with one of my clients who um is a man who has basically engaged the coaching work in a position of dysfunction in his relationships, um, in the primary relationship that he was in. That relationship then ended as a result of our coaching work together because it was needing to end, let's say. Or he decided that it was diff very difficult to continue. And then um, you know, so there's been a bunch of our work that has been oriented towards him navigating his own stuff and working by himself, and that was very fruitful for him. And there was also really important work that needs to be done in the relationship, and so he's in a pr in a stage where one relationship has ended because of a lack of clarity and understanding his patterns, moving into a phase where he's uh solo and there's a different kind of work or similar kind of work, um, but just different aspects of the same work that he's doing alone with me. And uh and that's also setting him up for the next relationship, which he's also sort of started to fall into, and that was part of his pattern was starting relationships compulsively, impulsively, not even realizing why he was starting those relationships. And so I think it's very complex, you know. We we have we are social creatures, we're embedded in a network of relationships, and then how we uh relate to ourselves is obviously as Natty said, the the relationship we bring to everything else. So there's um there's obviously different stages of the work that open up at different times and different scenarios, and there's opportunities everywhere to grow. Yeah.

unknown 10:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Um something that I've noticed, I recently did uh a survey with women and it's was really interested, and I was asking them some of the hesitations of doing deeper one-on-one work, women's work. And one of the primary um hesitations is the fear of what will happen if they do the inner work in terms of the implications in their relationship, which may lead them to realise that that relationship has met its potential and is not going to go any further. I'm curious if you find that within the clients that you work with, and also because you said, Naddie, that you you guys realize that as you're doing that inner work, you realise that you're at a point where okay, either almost I take full responsibility. We often talk about taking full 100% responsibility for your half of the relationship and for that inner relationship with self. So I'm curious, um, just your thoughts on um what is it that like how might someone know that if they really do the inner work, then almost like that's really scary because it might mean the relationship might end. But for you two, it was almost, it seems like this decision of like, okay, what I'm kind of took from you is that you both recognize that you had uh you both played a role in that earlier stage of your relationship. And so what was it that led you to to um choose to know we want to work this out together rather than okay, we're just gonna call it and do our individual work and heal separately and find someone else so we don't have to go over all of that. So I'm a woman. My question is kind of I've asked three questions in one. So is that clear my question? Yeah. Well, you can just talk to whatever you want to about that.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Okay. Um, so I mean, how did that play out first? I mean, for me, I think the thing that brought me to wanting to do my own work and really assert myself in a proper way for the first time, um, was really getting in touch with the pain that I was in. So it was kind of like I'm either gonna continue to suffer and really suffer a lot, um, or I'm gonna do this work and change the way that I was showing up fundamentally. Um, and then yes, maybe that could have been that the relationship ends, and that would have been painful, but it was kind of better to have that pain potentially for a couple of months of going through a breakup than to continuously suffer my ass off for the rest of my life in a dynamic that was really shitty. So I think that um part there, and that was really like a an aspect of the work that I had to do within myself to get in touch with the part of me that was suffering so much and to actually make that more important than my desire to stay in the connection no matter what. And that at the end of the day led to us um shifting because I put my foot down and I was like, we're either gonna do it this way now or we're not gonna do it at all. And that was a result of me getting to a place where I really got in touch with my suffering and how how painful it actually was to be in a dynamic that wasn't working. So I think that is also in the clients that I work with. Um, often the the thing that brings the women to actually want to do the work when they really notice that it just doesn't stop hurting, and I can try to close my eyes and pretend like it's not there, but it doesn't go anywhere. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, and it was um, I mean, thank God you did that.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Because ultimately it was that ultimatum and you finally uh choosing yourself and standing by what you needed that uh forced me to make my choice. Yeah. You know, I was basically wiggling, trying to, you know, I had there was room, there was moves on the board for me still to avoid making a very difficult decision. Um because up until that point you were just bending over, basically not standing up for what you really wanted.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, and I would I would stand up, but then the moment I got pushed back, I would just bend again. Yeah. So I wasn't really um standing up for myself in a way that actually would create safety for me and would create the thing that I wanted. And then when I got to the point where I was actually like, okay, now it's this or that, that's when you were actually put in a position where you had to make a choice somehow.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Because you had a question from one of your um one of your clients yesterday, I think it was that, you know, since you guys you you dated potential basically and you stayed for potential and it worked out. Do you recommend staying for potential? And the answer is no, because ultimately you got to a point where you're like the potential, who cares about the potential? The reality is I'm in pain and I'm not getting what I needed. And then when you finally uh had that conviction, I was like, what I that forced me to really look at what I really wanted as well. And I was like, Well, I know what I want, I want to be with you. Fuck everything else, you know. And so it was forced, and then then we weren't dating potential anymore, then we were both in it, and both fully choosing it and willing to step into the work and do the work that was necessary in order to make the relationship healthy and to rebuild the trust and create safety.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

And for me in that time, I mean I don't know how that was for you, but for me, that was not a um a time where I was sure that it will work out. Because obviously we were like at the end of like years of bullshit somehow. So I wasn't sure that it was gonna work out. It was something where I was like, okay, we're gonna take this one day in a time and see how it works out, and even if I can really work through the pain that I was holding, because that was also for a long time a thing where I'm I I was scared that if I really look at that pain and work through that pain, what if I don't even like you anymore? Yeah, so it was a big um yeah, even moment of insecurity there wasn't like oh, and now we're together and now we're gonna do it. For me, that was a big process of okay, let's see if this is gonna work out. You basically have to prove yourself to me in a way.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

And that's where you see if you if you're not willing to walk away, you're kind of screwed. Like if that's actually a really important boundary to have in a relationship. If this doesn't meet my needs, if this is not safe, if it's not healthy, I have to be willing to walk away. And it's that willingness to walk away that creates the boundary, and it's the boundary that creates the pressure necessary for something to evolve either into what it has to be or dissolve into what it shouldn't be, you know, and you know, to go your separate ways.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Awesome. Okay, I've got something I do you just want to touch off of that. Do you want to ask something as well? Yeah, yeah, but you go. Okay. Um, so uh I just want to relate it a little bit to us, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Potential piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah. Um too close. Okay, I'll just do it here so that if you talk, you can do there. Okay, great. So I love that you've brought up the potential piece, and I love that uh you had a client, you know, speaking to that. And something that, you know, when I think of when we met, you know, I was in my you're your mid-twenties, I was in the second half of my 30s, and so there was a very, you know, at that age, there was a big difference in terms of where I was at as a woman and where you were at as a youngish man, you know. And but what I would say with you is that I didn't fall in love with your potential, and I just deeply sensed your truth, the truth of who you were, and I and I knew that I just knew I could see who you were becoming, and so when we fell in love, I think that's the difference for me. I wasn't at I wasn't hoping that you'd change, which is in previous relationships, I was hoping that they'd change and they'd get more interested in this and they'd shift and grow. Whereas you, I knew that that's where you were heading. I didn't know if it would take how long it would take, and I didn't know if it would happen with me. And we've got a few chapters in our relationship of that letting go and being willing to, you know, really have that relationship reckoning. And um, yeah, I think that's the important distinction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Well, the for us it's a little bit different. Often when I was like really going to the depths of my shame and not feeling enough, not feeling good enough, not providing enough, not man enough for you. It was the potential and you really believing in and seeing who I am at my core and who I'm becoming and who I'm committed to becoming that I've I believe allowed you to love me through my shame and to see through my insecurities and my sense of not enoughness. Because it and it was in those moments where I had the the courage to really drop into that shame and verbalise it to you. And when you transmitted that love, it was that's what would help me heal and integrate those wounds in many ways. Yeah. You agree? Yeah. Right. Anything else you want to say that? So what I'm really interested to hear from you both is you know you you shared how at the relate the beginning of your relationship it was rocky. There was turbulence, there was that's an understanding. There was breaches of trust, safety eroded. So what I want to hear from you guys is what have you learnt about repair and forgiveness through that?

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Good question.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Do you want to start? I'm sure I'm gonna start. Um so what I have learned about repair I think it'd be like yeah, the the big thing for me there that I had to really learn is that I have to, even though I was the one in so much pain that I have to take absolute self-responsibility for how I hold that pain. Because that was in the beginning when we kind of started to unpack all of that stuff, that was a problem because I wasn't holding or sharing the pain that I was feeling, which was absolutely valid and all. Obviously big, but I wasn't sharing it in a very skillful way. It was very exploded and it ended up turning into shaming him and making him feel uh small. And then he would obviously collapse in response to that. And then I would shame him for that because my pain would be like, dude, you know, I'm in pain here. Why are you in pain now? Um, and that would really uh yeah, create like a block in the role for us to to work through that pain, and even for me to feel seen in my pain. And I think that was a big one for me to understand that even if I'm in pain and he had a lot to do with why I was in that pain, that still I need to take 100% responsibility for how I hold that pain and how I share that pain. Because otherwise, I'm not only hurting him, but I'm also standing in my own way. Like I'm not getting the experience of being seen and understood and validated if I'm extremely exploded in shaming him and my pain comes out sideways. That was a huge um yeah, thing for me to understand because obviously that was a big like part of me that was kind of righteously upset, and that was really something that I had to learn that it's yeah, 100% self-responsibility, otherwise it's not gonna apply.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Can you share a little bit about how you did that? Because that's a big journey.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yeah. So first of all, that was about me uh taking time to be with that pain on my own. So not just kind of go into that pain when he's there, but actually, first of all, sitting with it and learning what did I make those um experiences mean and why did they hurt so much, and in a certain way, like really truly, first of all, understanding myself, what was even there, um, so that I could even verbalize it properly. Uh, and then the other thing for me, because that is in general a pattern for me to be more exploded and more intense when I get triggered. Um, so also they're really learning how do I actually uh contain myself in general better, learning to self-soothe and um also learning to respect a boundary that he sets, right? When we talk about something and he's like, hey, this is not going well, or we need to calm down, to actually uh listen to that and take a moment and um yeah, that was definitely also a big part of that process for me to in general learn to deal with intensity in my body better to contain it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah, and I would just I would just say without without that, I don't think we would have been able to make it. Like the fact that you were able to uh see that, and even though I was the one that broke the trust and um a lot of the dynamic, you know, I was responsible for. Uh as you said in the beginning, it was it was because of everything that we'd been through. Um there was so much pain there that it was impossible for me to hold. And I was collapsing in my own shame. And you know, part of the part of the dysfunction that we experienced was because I didn't have boundaries. I didn't know what I needed, I wasn't able to articulate what I was feeling, and and then all of a sudden the relationship required me to try to hold not only everything that I'd been through, but also to somehow put that to the side and then hold space for you, which was just way beyond my capacity. And so every time she would share her pain, I would just collapse into shame and try to make it about me, or you know, what about my side of the story? You know, so then we were basically fighting over the spotlight whose pain's more valid, whose pain deserves to be seen first. And that just kept we just kept hitting that same roadblock. And I see this, we see this all the time in coaching as well. It's like couples just end up fighting over whose whose voice is more important, whose pain's more valid, and that creates a kind of power dynamic. And so the fact that she was able to sort of start reflecting and processing some of her stuff created a little bit more space for us to be able to come together and actually uh get more vulnerable and to share more, and we were able to sort of break the entire thing um down into smaller manageable chunks. And and you know, the question was about um forgiveness, and for me one of the hard things that I had to do was um, you know, is forgive myself for doing that and cheating and lying and dragging our relationship and her and the trust through the mud essentially. Um and that was sort of sort of the part of the piece around sitting in my own shame and actually learning to contact my own shame and learning to hold my own shame instead of every time she shared something about her pain, I would just collapse in shame. You know, I slowly had to develop the capacity to hold my shame alongside her pain and see that both were valid, both made sense, both deserved to be seen, and they didn't always have to be seen at the same time. That was huge.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

And it's kind of the same um for me. I think when I actually started to hold my pain, I started to actually have space for his. And I think that's the especially when it comes to infidelity, it's incredibly important to kind of get to a place where you can actually consider, okay, where was even the person that um created that breach of trust there, where was that coming from? And in the beginning, I was like, I don't give a shit where you were at, I don't give a shit about what was happening for you because I was in so much pain. And um I think once I actually started to work with my pain a bit more, and that is what gave me more internal space to be able to consider him and even consider how hard it must have been for him to see me in that pain. Because that's when I kind of got also to the place where I was like, okay, if I imagined this whole shebang the other way around, and he as the person that I love would come to me with this gigantic backpack of pain that I have somehow created, of course I would collapse in shame, you know. Um but that for me to even get to that place where I can again access that empathy that required me to work with my own stuff first on my own and not expecting him to do it for me in a way.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Can I just I'm just really curious what you guys think about that and how you can relate that to your journey and maybe some of the work that you've done together.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Sure. Thank you. Uh well, when you were both speaking, then I saw, you know, in our work when we're working with couples, we'll the two of the big C's are compassion and curiosity, and that when we're in conflict with one another and in these some um supposedly opposing forces and perspectives, that one of the best ways to start to get onto the first same page is to become curious about what's going on for the other person, even if to begin with that sounds like, what the fuck were you thinking? But if we can actually come to even if it's that first one degree of like, like what I cannot see how you would have done that or how you could have done that, you know, how what how could you have done that? But then look, how could you have done that? Like, I wonder what was happening for you or why you're seeing this in a certain way, and just that doorway of compassion is a huge uh sorry, doorway of curiosity, and then how essential it is to come into compassion for ourselves and for the other, and that that is yeah, those two um they're two really important bridges into coming into resolution.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I would just add on to the shame piece and how when we're not in touch with our own shame and we're not comfortable with really accessing it and being with it, we have all of these reflexes and behavioural patterns to try to get away from it. You know, whether we explode and try to dump all our stuff on the other person or we collapse and go inwards, you know, to the degree that we can actually just be with that shame and hold ourselves in that is to the degree that we can also be with our partner in their shame and however that wants to play out. And yeah, Natty, I love what you you you mentioned the word containment before, and I've I mentioned this a lot on the podcast with clients of in terms of a skill and a capacity to be in conscious relationship and to be able to repair that containment is essential, and it's a really beautiful example of when there is such a high degree of pain that it can be near impossible to contain, and something we also share about is a pendulum. Like quite often, if we've been suppressing our needs, not speaking up for ourselves, been giving our power away as a response or reaction to that, we swing the other way and we will stand up for ourselves in a righteous, entitled, aggressive way. And you know, when we're working with couples, if someone has had that swing, we're actually like that's actually progress. It's still dysfunctional, it's still creating conflict, but at least you're not in that same position. You're now starting to actually access the energy required to be able to stand up for yourself, and now it's about doing it in a more skillful way, like you said, and that skill is something we we can learn, and in order to be able to use those skills, we also need to have that internal capacity of, like you said, being able to be with it and not let it take over and explode and and not collapse either. And Jasper, like I can relate as well with the the collapsing under the shame, and one of the things that helped me get out of that was recognizing the difference between shame and guilt, and that the definition between the two is you know, shame, we make it about us and who we are at our being, there's something fundamentally wrong, flawed, broken within us, and that is devastating for our sense of self and also our capacity to repair because it's although it's remorseful, it's still self-focused, whereas guilt is like oh fuck, I've I've fucked up here, but it doesn't make me a bad person. And you can actually repair from that place, but to be able to access you know healthy guilt, we've got to come in contact with that shame and be like, oh you know, I've I've fucked up here, but but I can repair this, I can do my best to make right where I've fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Yeah, I think that the um the other thing that what I've witnessed in you in terms of what has helped you come out of the shame piece is recognising the impact of what happens when you would go into that shame, the impact that that would have on our capacity to relate. And uh yeah, when you saw that, that something shifted there from my memory. And I I'm not sure if we've you know, in terms of the um the shame piece is that it it's often I'm not sure if you two can both relate to this, but if you think of that time in your relationship and your lives, that I know we had a very particular moment where uh I don't think we need to share the story, but I we had the moment and I you know which one I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah, that's where I was going.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Yeah, and essentially it led to this, you know, Aaron coming home from this really powerful breathwork session, having like all high on your inside, and oh my god, da-da-da-da-da! And you were just so excited, and your revelation, and when you shared that, it brought me into such a deep sense. It for me, it brought up this sense of uh that there was something wrong with me. Essentially, I took it, I took your insight very personally, and it brought up this deep level of shame, and shame is cringy, man. It's not it's not a good feeling, it's not a nice feeling, and I was very pregnant at the time too, so I'm feeling everything a lot, and we had this moment and we went, it started and it happened pretty quickly, but you came in with this passionate, fiery energy, this like liberating, empowered, and then that energy, it's almost like I just I like crumbled that within myself, and um, and then I shared what that brought up for me, and then I remember then you kind of came down low, and uh and uh what did you say? What was the word that you said Jasper? Collapsed, and then then we're both mirroring this collapse energy, like to the degree that Aaron was like we both went boom, and then uh you said, Did you say it first?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

No, you said it first.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I said, I I've I feel like there's something wrong with me, and then Aaron said, Well, I feel like there's something wrong with me, and then we looked at each other and I was like, and again, there's that compassion piece, and so much relationship is getting off the the high horse of like but I feel like there's something wrong with me, but I feel you know, and this like let's actually the commonality is we're both feeling shame, we're both feeling that there's something wrong with us, and uh on one hand holding that feeling of what we're feeling, and also uh somehow connecting this deeper sense of knowing that it's okay and we're in this together, and it's like we came, we came, even though we're at these opposing perspectives and some somewhat individual experiences, we both recognized we were in the same core wound, core wound, and that was immensely bonding and healing and and then holding one another, and then we didn't even need to process it. I don't think I think it just dissolved, and not because we bypassed it, it was just oh, we saw so deeply that it was our own stuff, and um yeah, it was hard though, yeah. Yeah, okay, and then we'll bring it back to them.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Okay, is there anything you mean that's it's like a it's a beautiful example for the the power of vulnerability, I think, because so often um we end up fighting over superficial stuff and the stuff that's actually happening under the surface, the vulnerability of hey, like I feel really like criticized and small right now that lives under the surface, and the moment we name that, it's almost like we're back in the same boat, like we're not against each other, we're actually um yeah, really most of the time having the exact same experience somehow or somewhere. Um so it's really yeah, it's powerful to yeah, to to get into that level of depth with each other where you allow the other person to see you because that's what's necessary to again get into that um curiosity and that compassion and to really kind of feel the other person. So we definitely had moments like this where we would be fighting about something and we get nowhere and we would get nowhere, and then the moment that we open and we're like actually I really feel really small right now. That's the thing where we get into um a moment of connection, and that's when it's not yeah, us against each other, but us together against the thing that is kind of happening by now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, and I I always think that um you know the the places that we get stuck the most is in conflict when the person that we're in love with, the person that we're building a life with, uh somehow goes from our best friend and our closest confidant and our lover and within the space of two seconds turns into an enemy somehow. How does that happen? Why does that happen? And isn't it weird somehow that we can be so close one minute and then all of a sudden uh so far away from each other? And so you know, something that I say to to every man that I'm working with is like if we could just fix like just that moment in your relationship when shit goes sideways and all of a sudden we enter into opposition, if we can just fix how we uh react, how we respond to that, how we can like bring safety into that moment, or bring you know a bit of space or a bit of clarity or a bit of vulnerability, anything that we can do to somehow fix that particular moment is the rupture and the repair. If we can just optimize that, the whole relationship will transform in a very short amount of time if we can get those strategies in place and just create more space around that. And uh, yeah, and so that we're a walking example of we just doubled down on conflict resolution skills both personally and together, and just focused on that for a few years. Like we both just went deep into that, it was part of our practice together in the relationship. It became a project for the relationship. Just let's just figure out how we do conflict. We're in a lot of conflict. If we can just if we can just figure out how to improve the way that we do conflict, then this is we're gonna be on we're gonna be smooth sailing in no time. And you know, in relative terms, it was no time, you know, over the space of a few years together from from complete dysfunction and toxicity into a place where there's a lot of harmony, a lot of safety, a lot of deeper intimacy and trust. Um yeah, so that one thing probably was the highest leverage move that we've made so far.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Yeah. Mine's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

I think so. Do you have any particular line one-liners or something that you use in that that bring you back in that moment of conflict and you could see things about to go pear-shaped? Do you have any like agreed phrases or what do some of those strategies look like for you both? We'll share ours as well if you share yours.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Do you have one-liner? I don't know. I know that I need to leave the house, like I need to get away somehow when I uh go really intense. Um, that is really a thing that I've discovered for myself. Like that really helps. Like, if I stay at home, I'm I'm gonna stay in fight mode for ages. And if I just leave the house for five minutes, I'm fine. So that's one thing that I know for myself. Um but yeah, do we have one-liners? Not really.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Well, my my one-liner is that I'm not fighting you.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Uh yeah. Yeah. But I'm fighting you.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

You're trying to, you're trying to, you're trying to, you want it. Because her her reaction, her, her threat response is to always uh slip into fight. Yeah. And mine's more like freeze and fawn. And uh, and so one of my strategies is just like uh first of all, narrating what's happening and just saying, I'm noticing I'm getting activated. I notice we're starting to enter into opposition. And I always fall back on the frame of like, we're not we're not doing this. Like, no, I I don't want to fight you. I'm not I'm not gonna fight you. Actually, let's take a pause, let's take a break. Clearly, this is not getting us anywhere. If we start, if we're starting to yell, no one's listening, and we're both uh activated, we're both unsafe. And the the only thing that matters in that moment is creating some sort of regulation, some sort of safety, and often that's taking a bit of space so we can come back together with vulnerability and with Empathy to be able to actually have the conversation that needs to happen in order to repair. But when we're activated, that conversation is not possible. So the first step is always to regulate so we can get empathy online so we can step into vulnerability and then we can take the next step.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

And that's really something that I that I appreciate a lot about um you and where you're at in your nervous system in a way like we are very complementary in that way somehow. Because I think without you setting clear boundaries sometimes and going like okay, but we're stopping and we're not doing this right now, um it wouldn't go as smoothly as it does. Because I don't have that capacity in many moments to go like okay, I'm I'm out of um the space where I can have a proper conversation. So for him to now be able, and that's also a capacity that you have grown um to be able to say, Hey babe, enough. Now we're gonna go calm our farm a bit.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Yeah, let's not go to the octagon.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Yeah. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

What do you mean the octagon?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

That's where the UFC happens.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Let's not take it there. Um yeah, no, I really, I really appreciate that because that's really yeah, helpful for me and my nervous system to have someone who also uh in a in a certain way helps me create a bit of containment when I really struggle to. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I love what you said, Jazz, about the conflict uh as the the primary thing to to focus on because what it reminds me of is that the first step when we work with couples in any setting, whether it's retreat, two-on-two work, or awakened intimacy, it's to name the pattern. And that pattern would be okay, you explode and you collapse, and what that helps do is actually get the couple on the same page. It's like we're actually in this together, and the actual enemy is the pattern, not my partner. And that's what I meant before. Like, maybe the person that collapsed actually starts exploding, and they're like, Oh, it's it's not really working, and I'm well, well, how's the pattern going? Has that changed? And they're like, Yes, that they're actually doing this now. I'm like, well, that's good, like there's change, yes, there's still some work to do, but at least the pattern's changing, and it helps depersonalise some of those combative patterns or patterns that lead one another to avoid because sometimes it's not conflict and fiery, sometimes it's just two people completely unwilling to look at it and just constantly sweeping it under the rug as well, and that comes with a huge cost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

So this is great, right? And I think for the listener who is in relationship with someone who perhaps they're listening to this with their partner and they're like, Oh, yeah, we could take this on. I'm curious to speak to the listener who is in a relationship that they're perhaps thinking, Well, yeah, I want to, you know, it's okay for you, Natty. You've got a partner who will say no, you know, my partner just escalates with me, or you know, oh well, I just can't, I you know, I just I can't speak to it, so I just push it under, and then my partner does that too. So I would love to give some value and some um suggestions to someone who is in perhaps they are in a relationship, but with someone who's not willing to do the work because we have that too, and I'm you must have that with your clients too. And I know Naddie, you spoke about taking 100% responsibility for your part. Um, does anyone have anything that they want to speak to about that?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah, I think that's where um we can kind of tie it back to what we were talking about in the um beginning, where there is so much work that we can in a certain way do on our own, right? Where we start to okay, what am I doing? And how can I start to really like baby step my way um towards maybe a more balanced way of approaching conflict in relationships and in my um experience even with my clients, when you shift, or it's the same thing in our relationship, when I started to shift, the dynamic hit a breaking point. Like it was like it it definitely is changing, and it's either going that way or that way, right? But you have so much power, even just when you're doing your work on your own. Yes, it's scary, um, but there is so much that we can shift in a dynamic because if we don't do the same thing that we have always done, then the dynamic is not gonna look the same. So there is gonna be change on um the other end. So I think uh in that way there is actually a lot of in a certain way hope, even for women or men that are in a relationship where their partner doesn't want to do the work, uh, because you still can create a shift by taking responsibility, especially getting out of that mindset which I was stuck in back then, where you're like, it's them, right? They have to change. If if they just changed and everything would be perfect, and that's where we actually get stuck in, nothing ever changes at all.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, and I'd I'd I'll just add to that that I think there's there's a huge amount of power that comes with learning to articulate what you're experiencing, and then being able to connect that to what you're needing to say, hey, I'm noticing this, here's what's going on for me. Maybe I'm not feeling heard, I'm not feeling seen, I'm not feeling safe in the dynamic at the moment. And what I need for us is this, you know, some sort of we we sit down and talk about our problems, you know, we're able to connect and actually communicate openly. We're able to talk about what we're needing and what we're not getting or how things are landing for us. And then what I always try to do is I try to tie it back to a collaborative frame. So it's not me versus you, because that's the default pattern of the mind when it comes to conflict, is we enter into opposition. What I always try to add in there is a collaborative frame. It's about us. I'm not I'm not trying to get your attention or trying to have this conversation or forcing you to do this for my own selfish needs. I'm doing this as this because it's what we need. If there is a us, if there is a relationship in play, then that has its own needs in order to be healthy. And so I often get um men that I'm working with to speak to their partner and establish a we frame. Like it's I'm I'm asking for this because you know, this is for the health of us, this is for the health of our kids, you know, this is to create a healthier household and environment for us all to live in. And it's that we frame that is actually a really powerful um position and perspective to hold because it's not selfish. You're actually doing it out altruistically, and you're actually thinking about the other person in their best interests as well, and we're wrapping all of that together, and I find that's really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um there's a few little bums there, good bums. Um, one is that nuggets, I think, is the correct term.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Truth bombs.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Tooth bombs, golden nuggets, golden nuggets, greatness, majestic words, um, is that I know for me part of my journey in taking responsibility, because there's definitely a part of me that likes to be sometimes victim, maybe that's too strong, sometimes just the poor me and the martyr. There's definitely that part, it's like I'll do it because you know, woe is me. And it's been a big thing that I've had to take responsibility for shifting from complaints to requests and getting clear on what do I actually want, what do I need, and that it's such a a great and empowering transition to move from, but in order to shift, I've had to let go. There's a certain comfort in being the victim and worries me. So that's interesting to have noticed that within myself, and I can still go there at times. And if I don't actually say what my needs are, then I can just stain that he's not meeting my needs. Whereas if I'm to take responsibility of my needs and actually help Aaron meet my needs, because again, I can go into that mindset. Well, he should know.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

He should mind read.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

He should mind read, or I've already told him I shouldn't have to tell him again, you know. But it's like how well maybe he should, maybe he shouldn't. But the reality is this is what's playing out, and so what is needed for the relationship, and uh something that yeah, I love that concept of there's Aaron, there's me, and then there's our relationship as a third entity, and that when we look at the us-ness, and if we get back into what do we need, and look at that relationship as a third entity, it can help help take out some of the um personal stuff out of it, come back to a greater whole, and the concept that we use, particularly with um couples who have a family and they've got a business, is we talk about what's best for the kingdom, and that you know, there are times where what's best for the kingdom, like uh last weekend, you know, I was really tired, and our son wanted um us both to go to the skate park with him, and I knew that what was best for the kingdom in that moment was for me to actually just stay at home and have some time for myself because my needs actually needed to be prioritised over than our son's wants, and then there are times where we will actually put one of the kids' needs first because when we look at the whole kingdom and how everyone's needs plays out, there's often one person or one entity, whether that be the whole family unit, one individual, or a particular relationship, because there's six of us at home, and so that's a lot of different relationships between those six, and there are times where a certain connection point is the one that needs to be prioritised, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Hmm. I think Jazz, you nailed it on the head when you said that you know when we're in conflict, it's becomes me versus you, and I know part of the internal pattern I've had to overcome rather than the martyr, and again it's like a complimentary opposite. Mine is my righteousness and my like in entitled no doll sort of fuck you kind of internal attitude. And how that how I've been able to recognise that in myself is simply like a finger pointing. It's and blame, recognizing that if I even if I'm like I think I'm being contained, but internally I'm like pointing the finger and like they're doing this and it's all their fault, and if only they'd do that, then I wouldn't be feeling like this. If there's that finger pointing out, then I know that I'm actually not in my wise adult, functional self. I'm actually in a more adaptive child, immature, emotionally unintelligent part of my myself and brain, and that that's not ultimately gonna get my needs met, it's not ultimately what's functional or gonna lead to the most love and connection. And being able to attain that part of myself, recognising when I'm pointing the finger has been really helpful, and it's like a similar thing with the collapse, with the shame piece, like the finger and the blame and the contempt gets point back in the self at the self. So I find that model of where's the finger being pointed, where's blame going here? Because blame just creates division, it doesn't actually lead to any like usness getting in that we frame, getting on the same page, finding a solution or making a request.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah, I think that's actually really um a powerful and a big lesson, I think, for many women also to learn. Um because what I observe in myself and in many clients is that there is often a tendency to blame partners for you're not doing it right and you're not being emotionally available and you're not this and you're not that and da-da-da-da-da. Um and for me in that time when we were working through all of that pain, there was a lot of blame that I was bringing to him hoping that that would breed accountability, which it obviously does not because blame just yeah, moved him into shame, right? Like really the opposite of uh accountability. Um and I think that yeah, is a is a really important um thing to see that again, you end up standing in your own way when you blame because you're not actually getting the other person to really see you and understand you, and um, you're not getting in the same bolt, you're actually pushing the other person further away, and that's actually not what you're wanting in the moment at all. Um, so I think that's a really important thing to always come back to that whenever we're blaming, we want maybe to get accountability from the other person, but we're not gonna get it that way.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Yeah, so uh where I'm seeing that it's almost like yeah, so I want to blame you, and therefore I want you to take accountability. And what I've heard from you throughout this thread, Natty, is that it's like I want you to take accountability. Well, actually, what would happen if I took accountability? And I know for me in a previous relationship, in the two long-term relationships that I had prior, it was when I got it really accountable. One of them I was quite young, so I didn't do it nearly as consciously, but when I got really clear on what I was no longer going to go without, that's when it shifted, and those relationships needed to end. And so that's you know, I will never I will never ever judge a woman or a man who stays in relationship for the kids, because I actually I really do understand why people do that, because it's a it really is the to to have a family unit separate is a big deal, right? It's a big deal. So I won't actually ever judge anyone who stays because of the kids, even though prior to finding myself in that dynamic, I could never get it. Having said that, um I can see how ultimately in taking accountability for myself, that that um like what I can see is what happened is when I actually really chose, I wasn't necessarily conscious of what I was doing, but when I chose to really actually get accountable for what I was and wasn't going to allow in my relationship, it actually that decision, that inner steadfast, okay, this, that has really rippled out into all aspects of my life in terms of accountability and and all relationships. And so it means it's not only that that previous relationship ended, but that has kind of set the in terms of my own barometer of what I will and won't allow. Um that means that only the relationships that I have now, not just my intimate relationship, but relationships, even though not all of my relationships are perfect and unicorn and rainbows, and they're not, because they're all with like myself, humans, we all have our stuff, but it means that the relationships that I do have is just of such a higher calibre, and because of that, I can have less judgment, less resentment, less whatever with those previous relationships because I'm I like have love and gratitude, and there's less of that messy resentment, and because I can see how I played my role in each and every one of them, and so there is no blame because it's almost like if I've got a red and there's a blue here and I mix them together, as long as unless I change the colour of my red, that colour's always going to be the change. But if I change the palette of my red, if I bring in different, you it's gonna create it can't, as you said, you can't create the same relationship if I'm not putting in the same energetics, dynamics, patterns, whatever it is. So I want to take it over from here.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

Yeah, I would just I would just add to that that um you know that quality or that standard that you hold for yourself in terms of taking responsibility, I think that's actually uh that's like a capacity that we develop. It's actually a sign of maturity. The more you can take responsibility for, uh the more you can own. Uh it's actually empowering. And one of the weakest positions to to keep yourself in is the the victim position, which is often a function of a lack of capacity. You know, the vi we we hold the victim a position because we don't have the capacity for more, and it's a very easy way to get validation and support and to feel right, and the other uh because the other person is wrong or the other person is evil and we're the good one. But to step into self-responsibility is like the the most empowering place you can step because the victim doesn't have many steps. The other person did that to me, and therefore the power is over there with them. But if I can take responsibility, then the power is here with me, and I have the the capacity to make change, and that doesn't mean I need to just simply take whatever's being given to me. I can also hold them hold the position of or the standard of I want to be in relationships with other people who take responsibility too. You know, and if and if I'm in a relationship with you and I'm taking responsibility, but you're not taking responsibility, that's actually non-relational. And I think that frame of relationality, I know this is something Aaron and I have talked quite a bit about, um, but I'd be really curious to hear what you guys frame as relational and non-relational. Maybe that's an interesting place to go to tie all of this together somehow.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Something that comes up for me is like in terms of our pain and our trauma, like, yes, it it's not our fault that that happens to us, but it is our responsibility. You know, it's it's our cross to bear and it's ours to to work with. And I I'm a strong believer that we turn our karma into our dharma and that our greatest wounds become our greatest gifts, and that a lot of what we've been through early in life has been for a purpose that is ultimately how we if we enter into the work and alchemize it, it's how we serve and help others. Um I've seen it time and time again. And yeah, in terms of relationality, for me it's it's that usness, it's that sense that and a sense of soft power of being able to stand up for ourselves, but not in a way that disempowers or overpowers another. And recognizing that yes, my pain is valid, but so is the other person's perspective. Just because I'm hurt doesn't mean that my position is more right or more entitled to be heard. Yeah, in terms of when I've been in a dynamic that hasn't been relational, that's typically what's happened. And I was doing my best to honour the person with what they were asking for and their needs, and it got to a point where if I was to continue to allow that, I would have been disrespecting myself and allowing dysfunction to continue, even when I was softly, kindly, compassionately, compassionately calling it out and asking for more accountability, responsibility to own the in own that person's impact when that wasn't met. I had to choose self-respect over that relationship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

Did we finish?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

I I do have somewhere I want to go with the conversation, but if you want to.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

I was just gonna speak to that relationality, in that I think it also comes back to what Naddie was sharing in that um Like I and again, this the one of the biggest gifts of doing this relational work is that it it we we can transfer those skills of conflict resolution and and uh accountability to all of our relationships. And I had a conversation with my mum uh last week where I shared something and her response led me to go into internal dialogue of this is why I don't share things with you because da da da da. And so I had this moment, it was literally just from looking at them in the start of the driveway to the end of the driveway that it all unfolded. And during that walk, which is 20 metres, I kind of just I recognised I was going into wall off somewhat victim, this is why I don't share, and then uh then going, okay, I actually need to be accountable. I can see a pattern following coming here, and so I'm going to share my internal response with my with my mum, who again it's it's one thing, you know, if Aaron and I have our stuff can come up, we can we can share it, and it might be challenging, but we're working at a similar level of consciousness and self-awareness, and that's very different if we're trying to have a conversation with someone who doesn't have the same amount of self-awareness and and self-recognition. And so, but again, that needs to not become an excuse. Well, I can't because they're like not as enlightened as me, you know, for example. Uh so yeah, I I shared my experience with my mum taking responsibility and said, Mum, what I'm noticing is that when I shared that and you responded that way, it brought this up for me. And so what I ask is that when I share things like that, that you just be aware of that. And mum is so awesome. And uh she said, Well, oh, she said, Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, I da-da-da. And when she shared her perspective, I was like, Yeah, but that's something that Aaron will share with me, and that uh, and I know this comes from my um maternal lineage of we're curious and so we want to know, and so we ask questions, and it's coming from a place of curiosity and wanting to understand, but it can be perceived as this nitpicking critical energy, and it's not that's not the intention at all. And so when mum literally spoke some of the words that Aaron was like, I feel like you're like, you know, questioning, and mum is like, um then that really helped me see uh I have that same pattern too, so taking responsibility, and afterwards, mum said, Oh, thank you so much for sharing, because if not I can't know as well, and so that's the other gift, and so how we become relational with it all is again rather than the blaming, it's uh becoming more and more relational with ourselves and and uh acknowledging the different aspects and parts that get brought up in conflict and the familiar repetitive internal leaps and narrations that we have going on, and and becoming curious about those and working with those.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Beautiful. Thanks, babe. And what I really hear from that is uh the humility required to actually hear feedback from others of how your behavior and your expression, your communication actually impacts and lands for them. And really being open and once again curious to how that lands. I guess for the final part of this conversation, and thank you guys, this has been epic, really epic.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

Uh a common run of a treat together in Fiji. Subliminal Subliminal Subliminal If you want to come at PMS Fiji.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

Yeah, a common thread, Jasper, you know, between our work together, you know, this podcast and our foundational programme is called Awakened Intimacy. Your brand brother is called Awakened Evolution, our men's work together is called Awakened Brotherhood. Likely gonna be running a retreat at some point called Awakened Man. You know, this this term awakening. You know, what I want to hear from you is what's your definition of that and why is it that relationship and particularly intimate relationship become such a powerful potent vehicle for that process?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

That's a great question. Um I think for me uh from an early age I always had a deep sort of passion and curiosity for for knowledge, and I was always seeking to understand things and trying to just map and figure out what all of this is and why I'm here and who am I. And that led me on a path um that sort of took me to India and took me into spirituality, and I started chasing enlightenment and um found a spiritual community where Natalie and I met. And my whole sort of direction was really around awakening myself. And what I discovered on that path was that um you can chase enlightenment, but if you have all of these amazing spiritual states and realizations and um access to higher truths, if you come back to home and your relationship is in shambles and you're met with conflict and there's all this pain and all of this unprocessed trauma, then your awakening is basically degraded and it's really hard to sustain and integrate any kind of higher truth if you don't have the foundations in place. So that was a really humbling lesson for me was that I was spiritually bypassing and I was putting the cart before the horse. And so I recognized that I had to go back and fill in all of the missing pieces, all of all of the gaps in my development and the lack of skill and face the truth, which is that I was behaving in ways that was very dysfunctional, pretending I was walking around being enlightened and being very, very unenlightened in other areas of my life. And so that was a humbling truth that I had to face. And then what I discovered through that was that by actually coming back into this place of you know, somehow building myself from the ground up, that that was actually part of the bigger work that I was going towards anyway. It was actually an opportunity to sharpen my consciousness and develop, deepen myself and grow up and clean up all of the past. And that was actually work that was in service to my ultimate goal, anyway. And so I don't see these things as disconnected, I see it as the same path, um, just applied to the lens of relationship and you know, ultimately finding myself and truth in the eyes of another, and using the relationship as a sacred mirror for my own awakening, and then we can wake up and grow up together, and then we get to spread that and share that um message and the wisdom of that with other people, and that serves the greater good and the greater whole of you know raising or elevating consciousness of the collective or of all life in in our small way somehow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

Do you want to add anything on that for that? Um not really. I think you say everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Yeah, I love that brother. Um, and it it's one of the reasons that we resonate with one another and we've got that shared passion for truth. And I know for me at the age of 21, I started to realise I was wearing different masks and different personas around different people, and to do that I had to make up lies and stories to create those masks and personas, and ultimately it meant that any connection or praise or admiration that I was so longing for was going to the mask and not actually hitting me at my core. And it was at that same point in my life that I started to awaken to a higher truth, that there was something more to life than what we just sold or taught. And so I made a deep vow and commitment to myself to no longer wear a mask and to really speak my truth, be authentic, uh, not tell lies, and also discover the truth about like what is this human experience that we're in. And it was that commitment that ultimately got me on my path that led me to Greer, and what she saw in me was that like fierce commitment to becoming my best, living my truth, serving a higher mission. And it was also that commitment that created the foundations for our intimacy as well, because you know you said something earlier, Nadia, around the power of vulnerability. And in those moments in our relationship where it would easily be described as vulnerable, ultimately what got me into those states of vulnerability was just it was that commitment to truth. I was like, this is the truth of what's coming up for me, this is the truth of my experience, and to try pretend it's not it's taking me out of my integrity. And what I've come to realize is that all of those triggers, those patterns, those conflicts, where whether we explode or we collapse, like they were how we adapted to our family of origin and take us away from our true authentic self. And really, we're all on this path of you know waking up to the truth, and the more we can live that, honour that, live in integrity with that, then when we work through these conflicts, we start to access the truth of who we are and live that, and it's ultimately liberating. And not only is it liberating for us as individuals, but it creates that the depth of love. And this is something Greer and I often say is that truth and love are synonyms. And by embarking on this work together, we liberate ourselves and we create this deep bond of love that's forged in truth. And it takes a lot of courage. I just know that in my bones. And that's the frame that empowers me to go into those vulnerable places is that I'm actually being courageously committed to truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Yeah, I think in those moments that you have brought your truth to me, in particular the really tricky ones, vulnerable, yes, but also uncomfortable and um dismantling, is that something that that has really gifted me is that you've trusted that I can hold it, and that even if you've brought me something and I haven't known how to hold it, that it's it's in it's in the me going, oh, I don't know how to hold this, that I've learnt how to hold it. And in that um me also, or who you know, there's been times where you've have like said to me, you know, to be honest, I've just I'm actually not feeling attracted to you at the moment because you know, attraction ebbs and flows, and so for you to bring that to me, and and for the listener, just so you know, Aaron's not being a cunt, it's not it's not fine, you know, to get you out of the gym, it's like an energetic, you know, we we have times where we're feeling really drawn to our partner and not and that everything in the universe is going in and out, right? So it's an it's an energetic thing, but in that in one particular moment, I can remember, I remember having the internal thought of like, well, who am I if I'm not attractive to my husband? If I'm not attractive, yeah, to my husband. And am I enough as a wife if I'm not an attractive wife? And am I enough as a woman, as a as as a being, and so your truth has required me to come into a deeper truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Um and strengthen and and own who you are, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:04

And and and also, you know, in the energetics of you speaking to that kind of ebb and flow, and that in the ebb, and as you speak to that ebb, that that that's as far as the ebb goes, because you've turned back towards in truth. And and each time that that has happened, hasn't happened a lot of times, but with whatever the conversation about is, is you've been willing to risk the separation, this is what's happening, and what is this in between us, if you know, and this space of unknown that that's that brings us back into a deep truth, and that ignites everything in our relationship again, and then we kind of almost move up another another layer.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

Yeah, we go deeper.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:49

Well, yeah, it's all higher, yeah. Yeah, and higher, deeper, and then all of it juicier.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

It's juicy. Can I just say something? Yeah, okay. Um, I just want to just make an observation that it's it's been a real honour and a real joy to have a window into your relationship and just to see how you guys communicate with each other and the fierce courage that you have and the commitment to truth. I think that's something that Aaron and I have really resonated with strongly. And I know for me personally, you guys have uh you guys have been an example of that, of how you can really stand in uncomfortable truth and use that as a as a pathway for growing and deepening a relationship. It's uh yeah, very precious.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:35

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:39

Thank you, brother. Um any final words, any anything you want to point listeners towards? Any offers? Any final last inspirational quotes?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

I think we want to point everybody towards you guys. Oh we told them to say they give it to me. Because as because as um Jazz said, I think it's um yeah, you guys are such an inspiration. It's so beautiful to see you guys and uh yeah, see how you are um navigating a relationship even with kids in the picture, and that is something that um we obviously don't have experience with. Um and it's it's really really um yeah, inspirational to see how you guys get to navigate all of that and on top of that make your relationship so um like such a beautiful container for your growth and um with the depth. Uh it's really really an inspiration. So I think we're everybody everybody move towards over there.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:50

That's very sweet. Yeah, and thanks for having us on.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:52

Yeah, thank you. We'll put your website details and and socials and things also in the links. So thank you guys. We love you both very much. Thank you.