Ep.14 | More Than Chemistry: Expanding Polarity Beyond the Bedroom

Most people hear "polarity" and "masculine/feminine dynamics" and think it's just about sex. But it's so much more than that. Polarity is the current running underneath why you fight the way you fight, why silence can feel like abandonment to one of you and nothing at all to the other, and why the most intense relationship you've ever had might have been running on old wounds instead of real chemistry.

Damien Bohler and Katie Taelos, founders of Evolve Relating, join us to pull polarity apart from the bedroom and show where it actually shows up:
in conflict, in nervous system responses, in what makes one partner feel loved and the other feel completely unseen by the exact same gesture.

We dive into their own relationship, the moments they realised they were running on "dirty fuel" instead of the real thing, and what they do t remember they're not each other's enemy.

If you've ever wondered why the same argument keeps circling back, or why one of you shuts down while the other one escalates, this episode carries a whole new perspective for you.

This one covers:

• How Damien and Katie met, and the inner readiness that had to land in both of them first
• The four seasons every relationship moves through, and why winter isn't a sign something's broken
• Why one partner going quiet can feel completely benign to him and like abandonment to her nervous system
• The single word used mid-conflict to remember the pattern is the enemy, not each other
• Why we've had decades of a personal development movement and still don't have a relational one
• The difference between wounded polarity — "dirty fuel" — and the real, consciously created thing
• The "great polarity flip," and why integration is a phase, not a destination
• What actually happens to a relationship once the honeymoon hormones wear off
• Why conscious relationships and relational skills are a necessity, not a luxury, for us to survive and thrive as a species

Connect with Damien & Katie:
Website: evolverelating.com
Instagram: @evolverelating

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Awakened Into Sea Podcast. Today we have another interview for you. This time it is with the artists formerly known as Damien Bolair and Katie Fields, but now known as Mr. Mrs. Tower, which is wonderful. And we're so excited to have these guys on board.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Yeah, it was a really inspiring, deep conversation, and uh one of the reasons I really wanted to invite them on to the podcast is particularly Damien's writing is really prolific. He writes really in-depth around masculine and feminine dynamics and polarity. And I find a real strong resonance with his work. Most importantly, he expands polarity beyond the bedroom because when people first come into this concept around polarity, it's usually only within the domain of sexuality and sexual chemistry. Which is really important. Yet polarity has implications far beyond the bedroom and even beyond just relationship. One of the questions I was really curious to ask these guys was you know, how does polarity actually play a an evolutionary role for humanity at this time? Uh we dive deep into that, we explore y their relationship because it was really palpable actually during the conversation and I said it within the podcast was the their love was really palpable. The way they were just looking at each other and smiling at each other. They were more than their words, their embodiment of of what they've cultivated in their relationship spoke far beyond just the words that they shared.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

I was gonna say and they're both highly intelligent, both highly wise and you can tell very open-hearted, willing-kind people. So it was a really great conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, and their brand is called Evolve Relating. They're currently working on their first book, reorganizing the way they deliver their work. So keep an eye on those guys. They're really embodied, very integral, just can't rate them enough. Really? It was a real honour to have them on, and yeah, we dived into all things conscious relating and why it's actually essential for humanity and humans to work out how to relate with one another and why doing that within intimate relationship is the the foundation.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

So without further ado, here's the interview. So welcome to the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. We're your host.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

I'm Aaron.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

I'm Griya, and today we have two very special guests, Damien Bolaire and Katie. And uh yeah, it's really lovely to have you both on. And so thank you for creating the space to have this conversation. Uh, I'd love to start by hearing a little bit about where you were when you actually came together in terms of your inner journey and your inner commitment to your own self and whether or not you are actively looking for a relationship, or if you happened to stumble upon one another.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

You want me to tell my bit? Yeah, I go first. Um it was interesting. Right before I met Katie, I I had become very clear that uh I was like actually ready for a relationship. I had been in and out of relationships for a long time. There was something that I've always wanted, a deep relationship. But I think that there was a part of me that was never truly ready. And there was something that in me that shifted. I was at the time, I was uh I'd ended a prior relationship and I was in a very short one, and I was in this little bit of a gap, and I felt myself very open. And I was talking with a friend about moving into a sharehouse. We were like in the conversations about like we're getting together and talking about having a share house and what we would need in a share house and what we would want. And we're kind of in those discussions. And I remember one of the discussions we sat down and I said, Yeah, I'm going to, I'm gonna have a partner probably at some point pretty early on, since when we start living together, and she's gonna be around the lot and just have to make sure that you're okay with that. And I I I hadn't even, I mean, I'd met Katie. We never met in person, but we we knew, but I didn't, like it wasn't there wasn't a strong kind of connection. We'd met online, you know, in in different ways. Um but yeah, so I just I had this certainty that like it was it was coming, like, and it felt so clear inside me. And I'd been on a on a journey of getting more and more refined in what I now describe as my standards around what it is that I actually wanted, you know, and and you know, in all the prior relationships, seeing the places where I wasn't in alignment with like this is actually what I want, where I compromised in lots of different ways, and how that always came to result in discomfort at some point. The discrepancy between what I wanted and what I was accepting would always eventually become magnified, and and that would be very apparent in prior relationships. And uh, you know, I was very aware that I wanted to, I wanted to heal with somebody, I wanted to grow with somebody, you know, have a kind of evolving relationship, I wanted to work through my attachment stuff with somebody, and I wanted somebody who was in alignment with where I wanted to go in my life. And I was really quite clear around where I where I was heading. And uh yeah, the first time we met, I was just going to a burger store and on my own, and I bumped into a friend there and I sat down with him, and he was also friends with Katie, and he was meeting Katie at the time. So she turned up and we had a little chat there, and I found out that at the time Katie was a jeweler and I had a necklace that I wanted. You know, I didn't think anything more, and I just said, Hey, can you fix my necklace? And she was like, Okay. And then we ended up it's not actually what you did, but she said okay anyway. It was actually literally the next day we bumped into each other again at a markets, and then we sat down and we had a chat. And from there we just started a friendship, and we started connecting and talking and chatting and meeting each other from time to time. And I think it was probably like a month of connecting when I realized like we were texting, and the responses that I was getting from Katie when we were texting were these like really deep, thoughtful, kind of intimate responses, like in ways that I didn't know I always experienced. Like there was a a level of consideration that had me feel like relaxed, I guess, relaxed and kind of like authentic, like I could be myself. And at the time, like I didn't necessarily equate that with a charge, right? With with with a with a an erotic charge or something like that. But there was a point about a month in where I something in me dropped and I was like, oh, I think I I think I like this person. I was like, I think I wanna there's a I think I want to start flirting. And uh I think I did start. I named it. I just named it in the in the conversation and started flirting. Yeah, and then and then we kind of we started dating. And the first date, first proper date we went to, I remember, I mean, there was also a time like I was doing an interview for a podcast, and she'd come to meet me before, and we were hanging out, and it was really nice. And I was like, I have this scheduled podcast that I have to be on, but I'd like to keep hanging out with you. And Katie's like, I'll go pick up dinner and come back when you're done. And there was just this like easy generosity that I like that just touched me in in a like in a deep way. Like it wasn't, it was just a really deeply ease, easeful flow of like contribution, and uh yeah, and then I think it was the next week after that we went to a mini festival. Um, there was like workshops and syntropic farming and everything. But we spent the entire time conversing, we didn't go to any workshops or anything, we just got lost in conversation and uh visioning, envisioning, and I talked about all my dreams, my desires, and so did Katie, and there was like a lot of resonance, and I started telling Katie about like some of my like intellectual geekery. I talked about integral theory and spiral dynamics, and Katie has encountered a lot of stuff, but that was stuff that was relatively new to you, at least in that language. Yeah, and uh, and then I stayed over it her night, and the next morning, before I've even opened my eyes, like I'm like still lying in bed with my eyes closed, and Katie starts asking me questions about integral theory. Like first thing in the morning. I haven't even woken up. And I just remember in that moment, I was like, oh, I think she's the one. And I was like, can you like I love that you're asking these questions, but I'm not ready yet. Because I'm I sleep in, I'm like not, I take a good hour from the time of waking up to like being ready for the day. I need like it's a it's a slow journey for me. Whereas Katie wakes up with like questions in her mind and musings about the world and everything, and she's like active from the moment of waking, and I'm like, I'm not ready for that. There was that um just that that was so alive for you that it had gone in, and you're like, I want to know more. And I was just like, Yeah, I feel really mad here. And that was it. That that was the start of our relationship, yeah, you know, and then we just continued from there.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

How about you?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Like that was from beginning to um that was my story, yeah. Your story. Yeah, um, yeah, I guess for me, it's always like I've I've been on my personal journey, I feel like, from a very young age, but relationship was always something that felt maybe like even counter to my attachment style, but felt like it had a huge part to play in my purpose. Like I was like, there's something about my purpose here, and then it kind of moved counter to being kind of avoidant that there was this dance that I was having to navigate as I was growing into myself. And yeah, in my 20s, I met my first son's father, and that relationship really had me, I guess, develop the standards. Like I left that relationship with a deep sense of uh what I what I wanted moving forward, like what it would look like for me moving forward. And there was a settled, I would say, like a timeless, like it's okay if it's not this life kind of thing. There was like a deep, um, it was like, it wasn't like um like entitlement or anything, but there was like, no, there's a there's a certain frequency and a currency and a resonance that's that's the correct, and I'm okay if I don't find that, this life, but that's where I'm heading and that's what's pulling me. Like it was like my soul was pulling me towards this. And I would say, um, previous to meeting Damien, I don't know necessarily that I was like ready for a relationship, but there was lots of aspects of my life that were disintegrating around this kind of self-sufficiency. There was this point, this peak that I'd reached of like um, yeah, like this peak of loneliness. Like, okay, I've achieved these pieces that feel important to me in my own journey, and there's actually not any further I can go on my own. And then there was this surrender in me around those pieces of just like allowing that to let go. And there were big pieces that felt part of my identity and part of like, you know, kind of being a single mom and having my own business and kind of being on purpose. And it, but it felt like there was this, oh, there's a disintegration. And so I think that that process began, even if not fully conscious, pretty maybe a few months before I met Damien. And then as Damien shared, we'd met at this burger shop, but I'd actually gone for a healing with a friend that day before, and he was like, um, and it was the first session I'd ever had with him, and it was like it was amazing, it was beautiful. And and then he was like, something really key is gonna happen to you today. And I was like, okay, cool. And so I went to meet my first minute Damien, and I didn't even like click. And then I went for a walk with our friend on the beach, and I found this seashell that was this, like, you know, that like it was still together, it was open. I was like, oh my god, that's it. That was the thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

And so the special thing was a seashell.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I was like, oh yeah, this is the gift that was coming to me. When really the gift was like that first, first connection. And um, yeah, and then we met the next day. And on reflection, I think you have these like it's like it's happening the in the unconscious, but I remember that next day we were speaking, we're speaking about a lot of stuff, a lot of human design things, but I remember you mentioning that you had negative blood type. Yes, and there was this, because I do as well, and there was this thing inside of me that was like, ding, oh, that's someone have a baby with. And it's like just off there, far, far away. And because I was not, I I felt like I was complete having children, but there was some kind of voice somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

And and there's just like little pieces that like over time, you know, like on reflection, I'm like, oh yeah, that was and I was also just remembering we didn't tell the story of like earlier, like probably about eight, ten months earlier when we're at Taste of Love, and I taught the workshop that you're in, and you'd messaged me.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

We came back to that later. You'd messaged me this really beautiful message and saying you're you're the kind of man I'd like to be with.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah. Yeah. And I it didn't even clock that this was well, and because it wasn't coming from an entire like because he was going to Costa Rica and like out of the country and gone. So it felt like quite as safe. It was more like an admiration of like that what you're embodying is really like, yeah. And so yeah, that was, and also that we had also connected, like I had written, you had written a post about depth. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, that's so beautiful. And you had written, so we'd had a couple of interactions. You'd written to me, that was like maybe a year before or something. Yeah. Um, and you'd written in response to that. So there was a few things and your party, and anyway, there was a few like little like touch points, but um it wasn't really until yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

It's interesting that the thing that you said as well, I'd gotten to that that point as well. I felt like the I'm gonna meet someone, but also prior to that was this similar acceptance of like, I know what I want and I'm not willing to settle. And if that means I die alone, that's fine. Like, like I get peace with that, like of like, I'm not compromising these things again, and I'll I'll be okay, you know, if that means living the rest of my life alone, so be it.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

And I think that brought a quality of like leaned back to the connection in the beginning. Like there was something of and maybe also set the foundations for generosity as like a base. Like I think something that I I value about our coming together in the beginning was like there was a wholeness, and it was like, what can I offer rather what than what what can I like to get that I feel like set the pre the yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah, long interaction.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I was beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 16:20

It's so nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

And there's actually lots of like little threads of resonance with some of our story as well, of how we came together and uh we started our relationship started as a friendship, and that shared uh passion for mutual growth and personal development, and that really formed the foundation of of our intimacy because we were just friends, we had no expectation of one another. No need, no need, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

But I also had the thought I could have his baby. He's like, I feel like I could have his baby, and also I woke up ready to go as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And I'm a slow riser as well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Straight into dream recall. I'm like, yeah, yeah, tell me.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

I just give me another 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah, that there's there's so much, and I think the other part I find resonance in is like that kind of declaration of like, I'm this is what I want, and I'm not willing to settle. And I think for me, before we came together, even when we were friends, I'd had kind of a breakdown before a breakthrough, like just my heart breaking open, just this deep longing to be in relationship. I'd been single for eight years and been solo journeying and uh you know, had all these amazing heroes' journeys and initiations, and uh every night when I'd go to bed, I would still be wishing that I had someone next to me to to live life with. And yes, there was layers of attachment wounding and abandonment wounding and neediness of the feminine. There was layers of that, but deeper than that, there was like you said, Katie, there was this deep knowing that relationship was something I was here for. And I wasn't gonna settle for anything other than like that deep soulmate connection. So there was a real resonance there as well.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Yeah, I love that you spoke to the unwillingness to compromise. Um I'm really not a fan of compromises. I think in compromises, no one means, right? Everyone just settles for something they don't want. And uh and that nuance between devotion and attachment, you know, I'm devoted to this, and I hand it over as to where that happens. So it's yeah, really beautiful to hear that. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah. And obviously, as you guys know, the stages of relationship in that first romantic fairy tale stage is full of secretity and amazement and curiosity. I can tell and then the kind of reality hits and move into that second phase of where we realize we're in a relationship with another human being who is perfectly imperfect. So I'm curious for you guys, like what challenges have you had to move through to be able to be together? And I just also have to say, like, sitting here and witnessing you guys, the love between you both is very palpable. I noticed it yesterday in our connection call, but just sitting here and watching you guys, it's very palpable. And I know that a love like that is forged through adversity and honesty and depth and so vulnerability, really curious. What has your journey been to get to that point?

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Yeah. I like just just on the note, the the phases. I really like thinking of them in seasons. It's kind of the name that I quite enjoy. It's like spring is when we meet, it's like the first blossoms, and you have these little, little tender, like, oh wow, like this little love feelings. And then you enter enter into summer and you're like, let's get all our clothes off as much as possible, and it's hot, you know, and it's adventurous and it's out there. And then win, then you go into a kind of an autumn and you go, hang on a second, like we're dropping in. There's like we're dropping in, the leaves are falling, there's like reality is kind of coming upon us, and then you hit winter, and winter is like, oh shit, it's cold. And like, are we prepared for like the hardship and the snow and the like pretending to the fire and like things are things get gritty, you know, and we kind of have to go through that. And I and I really think that winter is a stage that all relationships hit, you know. It's like, you know, and and often it's those early months that are like preparing us for that, but that still doesn't like change the fact that like hard weather is coming, you know, and and it's part of the journey. So yeah, we've absol absolutely been through our difficulties there, you know. We've we entered in with a lot of awareness around our attachment, and like we we spoke of that early on and we saw those patterns, but you know, and and we had some awareness of them, and then it also doesn't negate the fact that like when they really start to come alive, it's like you know, old stuff comes up and all of these really bizarre reactive and defensive protective tendencies occur.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And so it's like I'm just recalling like in the beginning of our relationship, I remember when we moved up to the Sunshine Coast, yeah, and I had two specific times where I felt like I was gonna die. Yeah, I was being met with my avoidance, like there was pieces and there was like a later move through, and it's like so visceral that I was like, oh gosh, like it was it was only that the struggle. Structure had been that I'd landed the structure so deeply in my awareness that I could like go and grab it because the actual felt sense of my nervous system was like in overdrive, and there was a few experiences like that. Yeah. Early on. Yeah. And it would yeah. Well, the other thing that I feel like is a big challenge for us is like and I probably showed up from the beginning, was our orientation to how to heal. Like I feel like like I came in with more of a like soul initiation, like mutations go through the fire. You know, and then Damien was like slow and steady.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Incremental, do one bit at a time.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

And like and I feel like, but what that taught me was like actually I was kind of like blasting my human into kind of a bit of a free state and not really giving it the love that it needed. And so, you know, that that process and and learning and and giving even offering that to myself and my own humanness, that like that's like this more slow, tender, like, let's like gently be with it and do it over time. It's like, oh, it's it it opened my heart, my human heart, in a way that like I hadn't given it, I guess, through my through my yeah, and I mean I think that I think the challenges or struggles in relationship usually come down to like the places where we're different, you know, and and it it's like part of what draws us together is where we're sane.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

We have the same visions, the same kind of like ideas about the future. So we're drawn to together by these similarities, you know, like the things that we enjoy and that feeling of closeness, but we're also joined drawn together by our polarity, by like the differences between us as masculine and feminine beings and being in those states relative to each other. But then there's this like third layer of differences where the challenges show up, you know, like the differences in how we approach our healing or our growth, the differences in orientation. I'm very pragmatic. I like to look at things from the bottom. And how does it work at the most mechanical kind of structural level at the bottom? And Katie tends to look from the top, you know, and we we we understand this through human design and gene keys because we've looked at maps to understand these differences. We can't possibly be more different than our profiles have these real distinct differences from each other, and I would say they're real, but but but then there's also a complement to them. So, you know, like yeah, Katie has an overview, top-down kind of look at things that doesn't it cares more about the destination and the kind of like what would you say that is the I would say more like looking at the bigger picture, like bigger thing from the top and the the workings that way. Whereas I feel like like I'm like, yeah, look, I'm I I understand where we're going, but we've got to look at it from down, we've got to do this like micro adjustment down here to get there. And Katie's like, I'm like we just gotta be up here frequency.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, but it's been huge because then it like brings these two pieces together that don't, you know, it's like I often think about the tree, like you're looking at the tree. There's actually a Buddhist story that I I tell the kid that I read to the kids about like these four sisters that go to look at this special tree on their birthday and they're going to see it a different season. So it has a different every the sh shim shut tree. I'm gonna I can't I'm saying it wrong, but um, so they're like, no, that's not what it looks like. It looks like this it's these beautiful, you know, uh red, ruby, delicious, juicy, like duels. And they're like, no, it's like this white, like crystalline, you know, because the different seasons they're offering. Yeah. I feel like there's something like about getting a perception that's brings the two pieces together in a way that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Yeah, and and it seems to me like meeting those challenges is about both accepting, recognizing, and harmonizing those differences, you know. Similarly, like how we do conflict or how we react to conflict is quite different. KDE is fiery, and I going to freeze and curl up into my shell. And those two things are at odds with each other. And the the bizarre thing is, and this is where I think a lot of couples struggle as well, is like to me, going quiet and pulling in is harmless. It's benign. But to her nervous system, that's terrifying, right? The withdrawal and the closing in feels like abandonment, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

And her getting-I'm like, we got fire, let's like alchemized.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

To me, it's like too much, and I'm like, I need to run away, you know, and it's like, you know, my way is the right way. No, my way is the right way. And it's actually like, oh, these are our differences again, you know. And so it's like, how do we how do we both recognize acknowledge, harmonize and celebrate them? And to me, that's really the journey of finding all of those pieces and finding peace between us around them, you know, and then you know, toning out the dysfunctional, wounded parts, you know, meeting them, you know, a lot of the reactive patterns are simply simply a need that hasn't known that it can be met yet, trying to peel through the defense to the vulnerability and actually meet that need. And when we do, there's a there's a dropping away, and that bit falls away, and then it's like, okay, what's the next layer? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah, it's it's beautiful. And what you're describing is something that we're actually going to be teaching on in a few days, uh, a masterclass on divine union. And it the the core premise is you know, that which creates conflict and disconnect in our relationship when worked through it and consciously integrated actually brings us both into a state of wholeness within. And we actually had something similar earlier today. Well got fiery, Gri got into a I don't want to say it, but mopey.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yeah, he uses the M-word, he got something mopey. I'm not being mopey.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

I got I got Eeyore. Eeyore, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got mopey.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

I'm just gonna go over here.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Well, you you even said it was like um disappointed, and I'm like, oh well, no wonder I'm feeling shame. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

It's that that good example of the complementary opposites and how Aaron's, you know, I'm I'm requiring Aaron to soften and he's requiring me to strengthen. This is how he comes at inner alchemy. And you know, we we because it's this pattern that and it's because we're teaching on it in a couple of days' time. I don't know if you guys, if the same thing happens for you, but we'll be fine if we teach on a particular topic or retreat.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

It's here, right here. And it's like the universe going, do you have this? Do you are you sure you've got this? And it's like you have to work out any of the little things that aren't embodying that thing. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

100%. So yeah, so that's where we've been the last few days. And so just like literally about two hours ago, I was like, All right, well, but this is okay. How how are we gonna work is that let's actually just yeah, look at this. And it's that concept of naming that, you know, I is not my enemy, I'm not his enemy, it's the pattern. And so just even naming that pattern just kind of puts it outside and that okay, and almost um that the what was the word that we decided to say?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

We just pattern as a code word, a circuit breaker, because like I was saying degree, I just there's no gap for me to be able to control that fire at times. It just happens. There's no capacity to regulate and to take a breath. It's just stimulus response bang.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

And it's relatively harmless. You've softened that.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, I've softened it a lot, yeah. Yeah, but it still hurt, it still can hurt great. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah. And so the circuit breaker is just to say pattern, because as soon as she withdraws, I then start getting it's me versus you, and like, well, why are you getting like yeah, anyway, the whole story there we don't need to go into the point what we came to was recognizing how helpful it is to remind each other that the pattern is the issue, the pattern is the enemy and not each other.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

And even the pattern needs love, you know, it's just yeah, so yes. So we have become next level master at Bang Union in this last little while. And it's a continual practice, isn't it? And I'm not sure about you guys, but we feel that you know, just as that if we often use the Mercaban as we're getting those different perspectives and and we're expanding that as our capacity to hold broadens, we're required to hold more things, and because we're even more is coming up from the unconscious that we hadn't heard. So that vulnerability, but the safety is getting stronger and stronger. So it makes us this beautiful you know, flow of expansion and and uh deepening, and yeah, it's gorgeous. So it's really so beautiful to hear that journey within you both.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah. And obviously, your brand is called Evolve Relating. And so I've heard you mention Damien and Korea knows that I totally geek out over spiral dynamics and integral theory. I've been pulling her along on the journey.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Now I've started going with big purple.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah. And so what I wanted to hear from you guys is like so relationship, it obviously plays a role in our evolution. So what role does relating play in helping us individually and collectively evolve?

SPEAKER_03 32:07

I mean, I'm just thinking about how like where I want to go. There's like different directions I could go. I I think about uh I want to use the word whole-ons, but then I'm like, I'm gonna have to describe what a whole-on means. So I think like yeah, yeah, I know I'm I'm thinking about the audience as well. Yeah. Um the the way that our our world is constructed, it's constructed by like increasingly nested groups, right? There are groupings. And I think that, you know, there's the individual, right? We have our sense of self as an individual, but then the first actual grouping of humans is the relationship, the couple, right? Because without a relationship between a man and a woman, biologically, there's no family. So there's no the the entire social construction of humanity doesn't exist without that first grouping. You go from the individual to the couple, the couple to the family, and then you get you get groupings of families together, you have a tribe, you get groups of tribes together, you have a village, you get you know, villages together, you have a nation, you know, you kind of have this continually larger clumps of humans. But if we go back to the first social unit, it's the couple, because there's an individual unit, but the first social unit is the couple. And so I think that like there's such a big leverage point there. In my own work, like my actual background is uh as environmental biology. That's what I studied at university. I then later went into learning about permaculture and I got like I had a lot of passion around like how do we live a more ecological life as humans because I could, when I learned at university, I was like, oh my God, we are just destroying the planet. You know, like there is this big problem occurring environmentally. But at some point, after spending a lot of time on communities, you know, permaculture communities and different things, I realized that until people deeply care about each other, there's no chance for us to actually change the world. Right. And I and then as I dug even deeper with that, I realized it's actually like this the couple is probably the biggest source of human-to-human pain on the planet is the difficulty in forming relational units. If we look at um popular music, for example, if you if we were to go and look at the top 100 chart, I would I would wager that more than 50%, probably even 60 or 70 percent of that are about dysfunctional relationships, heartbreak, problems, that's that's the milieu that we're in. If we look at TV shows, if we were to go do a scan through on Netflix, again, probably more than 50% of them centered around relationship drama, and then probably another 40% of them have at least one central dramatic relationship at the core of the story being told, right? And we're obsessed by relationship, right? You know, as a species, and rightly so, because that's how we perpetuate our species is through relationship forming children. Whether anyone chooses to have children or not, it's still that impulse is to come together in that sense. And so for me, I think that if we've had a you know, 30, 40, 50 years of the personal development revolution, we've got this multi-billion dollar personal development kind of machine in place, but we don't have the relational development movement yet. You know, it's starting, it's starting. And personal development is not relational development. Like you can do a lot of personal development and still get into a relationship and and if anything, actually a lot of personal development hinders relationship. Like if you if you are a more simple, and simple, I don't mean dumb, I just mean less complex in terms of the level of self-awareness that you've developed, relationship is a bit easier because you don't have as much complexity to deal with. But if you've done a lot of personal development work and you get together with someone who's done a lot of personal development work, you're now two quite complex beings trying to fit yourself, fit your life together. And there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong in that, right? There's a lot of potential for challenge. And so I think that, you know, like given that kind of rising of units of couples to tribes, that's how we're going to influence the nature of the world. It's like, what is the new tribe, right? What is the new tribe is going to change the way that we live close to the land, but without the couple, the new tribe is a mess. And I've been to communities where they don't have a strong sense of the couple as a pillar, open relating, and it's just a dramatic mess. It's just a mess of interpersonal relationships damaging each other, and it's really hard to get traction there. So I think for me that that recognizing that there's a really big leverage point for uh creating change in the planet by focusing on relationships. And you stuff to add your visions of the couples as the the pillars.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we live in a relational world. So it's like that is ultimately where we turn. And it it feels like getting that template right for how to relate becomes like the seed of the fractal that makes everything else easy. You know, so it as you said, it's the leverage point. Um, and I also just think that there's the capacity, like, you know, like self-sourcing is one thing, but you know, when two people come together, we get the alchemical third. So we're like developing this capacity to generate energy in a way that that you can't do on your own. And I feel like there's something in that. And once we actually unlock it, yeah, in in like a very conscious, kind of codified way, then that again also spreads, you know, the fractal, and we start to become you kind of the luminous beings we're meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Oh, that was a point that I was gonna say in relation to what you just said that I really liked. Um I've lost it.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Around generosity in the movie?

SPEAKER_03 38:40

No, no, it was around the the the couple or the the evolution. Yeah, that's it, right? So we've had this personal development movement and we've developed individually, but the template like you're talking about there for relationship isn't there yet. It's like the the the possibility of the relationship is lagging behind where individuals have gone, right? And until that catches up and it and it gains the weight, we're missing all of this energy that is developed inside of relationships. Like I spoke about with the media and the songs, the amount of energy that is leaked out of dysfunctional or painful relationship experiences, it's like wasted energy, you know, and it's like you know, and I know, and all couples know that if you have a big conflict, you can waste a day or more. And if you're in a in a relationship with a lot of conflict, you can waste weeks and months out of a year of just operating subpar, like we're operating lower than we're actually capable of because of the amount of energy that it burns to not be in a flow, in a generative, energetic container together. But but then on the other hand, when we come into flow together and we're actually working together and things work, it's like we have more energy than we can do on our own. And that energy that is the energy that starts to move mountains, right? And then we can get more couples together, we start to create that tribe. Now we really start to move things with that energy that's created between us.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

In in in alignment with kind of love. Like I think when a couple devotes to love, like puts love at the center, it starts to become like uh like it is a transmission of that love, you know, and then that becomes what ripples out. And so then in service, it doesn't necessarily mean like a couple has to be out there doing all the things, although I feel like that's part of the the way that's being paved, like the the trail is being blazed. But it's like eventually couples will just be doing their coupling, and that love is going to be transforming humanity, just being there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Beautiful. Yeah, it reminds me too, you know, around the ecological consciousness. Uh I really see the West making a shift from, you know, to use spiral language from orange to green or from you know, capitalistic individualism into a more relational, ecological consciousness. And you know, we see people having a yearning for tribe and being more community-based and yet lacking the relational skills. And why so many of those communities tend to collapse is there's a lack of emphasis or awareness on what it takes to be really relational.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

Yeah, and that they are skills, you know, it's that there is that, as you said, there is the nitty-britty, okay. So what do we do here? Okay, what we do is we name the pattern, that's our process. But also remember, okay, what's that higher perspective? And I said to Aaron just before with this, you know, this pattern and this this ball of energy that's that is the the relationship that has just like the yin-yang, all of this light, and then this shadow. And I said it makes sense as our relationship grows and we continue to evolve, there's going to be parts of that that also require, you know, more love, more awareness, more light. So that can, and how do we be with the shadow of that pattern? You know, can we still bring love to it and and that beautiful alchemy that that provides?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

So yeah, and and we will confirm that there is a lot of energy generated in a loving relationship. Yeah. It's very juicy and it's enlivening, it's vitality, it's life force, right? And it it lights us up and gives us the will, the passion, the determination, the resilience to be able to raise a family in a conscious way, to be able to deal with the economic pressures that we're under. So having that support, that nourishment as a relationship, as the foundation for our life is really essential for us to continue as a species. So yeah, really resonate with what you shared there. And uh, you know, something that one of my teachers, Terry Real, was very big on was you know, moving out of patriarchy and really seeing patriarchy as an imbalance in our psyche and consciousness, and it's not something to blame men for. You know, a woman can embody patriarchy as much as a man, and that's not to diminish the suffering that women have endured. That is a reality as well, but yet with both genders, both men and women have suffered under the influence of patriarchy. And so we believe the remedy of coming out of that paradigm and that consciousness is to be in more balance of within our own masculine and feminine qualities. And so, you know, there's a role of polarity there and You know, Damien, I I see you often write very eloquently and clearly from a very embodied place around masculine and feminine energies. And so I'm also curious what role do you see polarity playing in our evolution and why is it important for a couple to uh have this understanding because one of the limitations that I see is you know the entry level into polarity teachings is usually around sexuality, but it's often so much more than that.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

The thing is, it's like polarity is a new kind of buzzword, perhaps in relational circles. Obviously, it stems from tantric kind of philosophy, and so it's been around forever because it's inherent, it's one of the innate mechanisms of how how one the universe works, the entire dualistic universe as we experience, runs on polarity. There is there is no temperature without the polarity between hot and cold, there is no location without the polarity between up and down and left and right. Everything that we know is created in the space between two opposing poles. So there's a there's a functional principle of polarity that runs through everything and and it runs through relationship also. And every relationship, romantic relationship runs on polarity. You don't feel romantic and sexual attraction, romantic love and sexual attraction for another person without polarity. That that is what it is the polarity that creates that experience that we know is romantic love and sexual chemistry. Um what I think is going on is that I mean, this is not what I think, this is a central thesis in our body of work, is that a lot of the like a lot of relationships are formed on a wounded type of polarity, which is basically at this particular stage of our human development, the relationship between anxious and avoidant attachment is a polarity, right? And it's a particularly intense or volatile polarity, meaning there's a lot of energy between the anxious and the avoidant. They have a very strong charge between them. So what happens is you an anxious person meets an avoidant person, they feel this strong charge. If you've got a little bit of physical attraction in there and some shared interest, all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, mind blowing. We are absolutely irrevocably attracted to each other. But it's a wound, huh? Twin flame, twin flame, soulmates, whatever it might be, but it's actually the wounded pattern, the polarity is created by the wound. We call it dirty fuel. It's running on this dirty fuel of a wound, a wounded polarity. And it runs really hot at the beginning. Like that kind of relationship, and I've certainly been there, and I know you've been there, and most people listening have probably had some version of one of those kinds of relationships that's running on that. It runs very hot at the beginning, and then it starts to burn. It gets very painful, right? Because those wounds come to the service, and then you realize there's a cycle that the romantic and sexual feelings are only generated through the pain of that wound playing out. So we get in this cycle of needing pain in order to generate attraction. So developing a conscious polarity, which is a shift into a masculine-feminine expression towards each other from an intentional place, requires one smoothing that out. So we're not running on that polarity anymore. We're not playing out this anxious, avoid, and dance, we're doing something else. And then we we then can start to live masculine and feminine qualities in relation to each other to create that energy. And now the create part is really important because it's a conscious creation. We we polarize to generate that feeling, right? But we don't, and what I think is really important, again, we're spiral dynamics kind of conversation, when we're going into a more integrated state, right? We're in a we're in a particular cultural trajectory where we've got what I call a great polarity flip going on, where women who went first, women generally evolve a little bit ahead of men in terms of our human human timeline. And there's a reason for that because their womb holds the evolutionary potential of humanity, and so they evolved first, and men kind of like match that. A polarity flip where a lot of women started to become more masculine, and they rightfully so because there was a feminine uprising, women's liberation, realizing that, like, hey, hang on, we don't want to be live our lives dependent on the masculine, dependent on men anymore. And so in that process of the polarity flip, women have start to get in contact with their inner masculine. And then on the other side, a little bit lag behind, we're seeing more and more of it now, men who start flipping into their feminine and they start becoming more in contact with their emotional body and their soft and sensitive self and become more interested in sensuous experience than drive or purpose or achievement, right? In touch with their feminine, become a little bit listless in terms of their purpose. And in all of that mess, we have this strange thing, and then we have our attachments going on. But what happens is a result of that process, women exploring their masculine, men exploring their feminine, unconsciously, it just happens. It's a developmental process. So it just happens one day, you know, usually incrementally, someone wakes up and they're like, I really want to feel as a man, or a woman wakes up and goes, like, I really want to focus on my purpose, right? And it just becomes part of this journey. When we start to integrate, when we reach the end of that journey, as a man, I've I've kind of explored my feminine world and I've gone, cool, I got this. And a woman, I've explored my masculine world, I've got this. We reach this tipping point where we enter into an integrated state of being and we start to break free of the identity associated with gender, right? And I think that this is why it's such a big political thing right now, gender, gender politics, because at an unconscious collective, we're trying to break out of the attachment to identity. It's not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily mean changing my gender, it just means freeing myself from the identity associated with it. And so when we rise up out of that, we get liberated from the idea that I have to be a particular way in order to have masculine energy, or I have to be a particular way to have feminine energy. We realize that these are states, and as states, I can embody a particular state with Katie, and she can embody a particular state with me. And the moment we go into that state, we generate energy. So for us, polarity is this conscious practice of understanding states that are separate from the uniqueness that I am. I get to be uniquely Damien in all of the ways that I am. I don't have to construct myself as like this is what a man should be, and I have to live like that. I can be me, and I can use masculine quality states to generate energy in relationship with Katie. If I go into a state of presence with her, her body's gonna respond and we'll feel charge between us. We don't I don't have to identify as something to do that. I can I can enact it. Any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 52:08

No, no, just sitting feeling to like this is part of our mechanics too, you know. Like it's inherent. It's just really functioning from our innate mechanics.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

And and these polarized states, they're they're inherent to us. We have access to them. The only shift is we start to do it consciously. We start to we we move out of running unconscious polarities, which is these wounded dynamics, into conscious expressions where we do it with intention and we know what we're doing. And with that, the energy, the love, the turn on, the generosity, all of that gets gets co-created. It gets generated by the way that we relate to each other.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Yeah. I love that. Uh, and I've got a question because we were on your email this um, Damien. And so the piece came through today or yesterday, and it was talking about how men want to feel you know, trusted and safe in prison and desired, and with a woman that's feeling cherished. And so I can totally like one of the reasons why I love Aaron so much is because I can just contrast him, like one, because of everything that he shared with me. Because that he's the trust that he's bestowed in me in sharing, you know, revealing himself. And so he has earned my trust, and and that makes me desire him. And then when you're kind of you know, bringing that energy to me and you I can feel that um that cherishing energy that is so sweet for me. And so, yes, we've got the masculine and feminine, and yet do you still feel that there are, you know, on the whole basic tendencies of and again, it's a bit uh tricky politically these days, but you know, of man and woman because I feel that, but that's just my experience, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

And well, so the the moment I start writing a piece like that, a polarized piece, the automatic response, there's always gonna be one. I I write it and I sit there and I'm like, I know, I know, I know exactly what kind of comments are coming. One of the comments that's always gonna come is, yeah, but women want to be trusted too. Yeah, but women want to be respected too. And I'm like, yeah, we all do. But what I would venture is the masculine in us wants to be respected, trusted, and my the feminine in us wants to be cherished and adored and felt and seen, right? And so, yeah, I have all of it. I I like to be cherished and adored as well, but they don't feed my masculine. And because I'm in a male body, well, I might not have to identify with the construct of a man, I am in a male body. My body runs on a system that is based around testosterone. And I think testosterone is the biological element of masculine essence. Whereas estrogen and progesterone, of course, women need two, not just one. Of course, estrogen and progesterone are the are the essences of feminine energy, right? And so those qualities feed my masculine, right? And my masculine is the thing that's gonna turn towards Katie and have her feel feminine. And the polarization between masculine and feminine generates the energy between us. He can absolutely cherish and adore me, and I can respect and trust her, but we're gonna, we're gonna change the polarity dynamics, which is fine. And that might be something that some couples want. Some couples, the man might be like, I want to be in more of the feminine pole, and the woman might want to be, I want to be more in the masculine pole. And there may be times in a relationship where that's necessary. And that doesn't mean that Katie doesn't value being respected and trusted and admired. She absolutely does, but it doesn't feed her in the same way as being cherished and adored does, right? Even I say cherished and adored, and your face softened, right? I say I respect you and I trust you, your spine kind of straightens the idea, right? And it's just like, what, what, what are and and so recognizing again coming into that place where we see polarity as a as a set of states that we enact together, it's like, what do we want to co-create? That's it. So if I want to co-create, if I want to, if I want to see her soft and like flowing and sensuous, if that's what I love, I feed her with cherishment and an adoration, you know. If she wants to see me like purposeful and directed and everything, she feeds me with trust and respect, and I respond in that way, right? What do we want out of each other? And we can do all of it. We we have choice. So that so the the point is not to say that this is the correct way, even though you know a social media post is a snippet of a bigger, you know, story, and it's never gonna tell the whole thing. And that's one of the challenges, but it's also how it works. You have to be a little bit polarizing and say things in really strong, absolute, authoritative statements to get any traction in social media. That's just if I explain all the nuances, people just scroll on by, right? Like that's just how it works, unfortunately. Um, so it's not to say that's how it has to be, but it's like I would say that's what most men beings in male bodies and most beings in female bodies want to experience because that's how the body's designed. Doesn't mean they have to, but they most want to. Yeah, it's like why not? It's like there's like, you know, there's there's no point trying to. I'm I I love watching basketball, right? And in in basketball, you know, the the the most of them are black athletes because they're innately more athletic, right? They innately jump higher, they're innately taller, they innately have those skills. And that's not me, right? If I were to play basketball, I have to play a completely different game based on the way that my body is. That's okay. You know, doesn't make me less than or anything. It just means that's the that's the body that I'm in.

SPEAKER_05 58:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

Don't know if that point was necessary, but maybe it's you really like basketball. I maybe I just want an opportunity to talk about basketball.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

My daughters will be pleased. So, and as you said, it's I guess the key of what you're saying is that if you want the polarity, you need the two different. And so if I think of two people who have that trust and respect, um, I I think of a brotherhood. And if I think of two people who are in that cherishing a daughter, oh you look so beautiful, that's that's like a sisterhood. And so I guess that's the whole point. You want the polarity, you just need the two poles, and it helps the polarity. What we find if if that like we'll have that natural tendency, particularly sexually identity and more naturally more um passive, and you're more like the um leading leading. But if we always do that, that's boring. So we still need to mix that up, and then that creates more, you know. So I guess it's just that uh it's everything's the dance, right? Everything's the movement.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

And the main are we conscious of what we're doing and are we conscious of what we're choosing? Is it intentional or is it just happening? Right. I think that that's that's the main point, and even that's confronting to some people because I think a lot of people like they want love and attraction to happen spontaneously without any effort. And I'm like, it does in the honeymoon period when you have biology on your side pumping hormones through your system like you're high, right? When you're drugged by new relationship energy, it is spontaneous, but that's gonna wear off. It always does. And a lot of people go, it's worn off. I'll go, I'll go find it somewhere else and get my get get the high again. But if you want a long-term sustainable relationship, you can't like the body's gonna stop doing that. Once you reach the attachment point, the body stops putting all of the hormones through which are designed to get you to bond. They're designed to make you inseparable. That's what all those hormones are doing to go, right, we're now together and it's gonna really suck if we break up. That's what those and once you've hit that point of like we're now together, the hormones stop, right? All the neurotransmitters change, and now you have to do something else. And so there is a truth, there is a reality to if we want to have a long-term relationship that is still sexually vital and filled with romantic love, we have to learn how to generate it ourselves intentionally. Or we can rely on the fight and fuck cycle, right? But that's there's only so long you can do that before you're destroyed, and you no longer, just like a heroin addict, you no longer get the same rush anymore. The rush starts to become bland in and of itself, and all you are left with is the devastation happening to your body or your relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

Yeah, that's exactly why I stopped heroin.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:02

Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Yeah, this has been a really beautiful conversation and uh touched on a lot of really valuable points. And uh yeah, just as we wrap this up, I you're really curious what's what's next for you guys as a couple and personally, professionally. Uh how are you guys evolving?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

Do you have any first thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

You can take that one away.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

Um personally, we're working on our first book, and we are putting this entire body of work, which is really comprehensive, into one foundational course. So one we've explored a couple of different ways of trying to present the entire body of work with challenges because it's a lot. Um, and so we're putting it into one self-guided journey that gives the entire framework of all of this because we just shared a piece of the transition. But to make that transition from running on the dirty fuel to conscious fuel, there's a lot of different things that need to happen, right? You know, we have to heal and smooth out the attachment, we have to learn to regulate our nervous system, we have to learn better communication patterns. Like then we have to learn to consciously apply the polarity, like we have to do all, we have to learn all these skills, like you mentioned before, they're skills. So we're putting that all together into one place. And we're here in Ahmed in Bali in this like just gorgeous house, a house that we wake up in every day going, oh my god, we live here. This is so good. With the views of the ocean. So we're here for a number of months working on that. That's what we're building. Um and filming and writing, and and then we wanna we wanna do a bit of travel and we want to go and explore other communities because the next step is community, right? Like we said, we're working with the first leverage point of the couple, but this is not where the work ends. We're interested in like what is the what is the tribe 2.0? What is the what is the collective of humans that is gonna break free of whatever's happening in the world right now? Because we're on, I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna go down this tangent. I'm just gonna say the one thing, but we're we're on a fast track to the dissolution of governments and nation states. I believe we're gonna see corporate states in our lifetime. You're gonna live in Google Sydney, you know, or Facebook Melbourne, right? Like we're we're heading there. Like the the power is shifting away from governments into corporations, right? Like that's where it's going with AI and everything. We're gonna be in a different world. So how are we gonna how are we gonna meet that world and retain those of us one more tangent? Sorry. So believe we're we're approaching a species bifurcation, right? This has happened throughout evolution. Species split into multiple subspecies when new niches open up in the environment. We're seeing new niches, AI, virtual reality, people will start traveling into space. You know, we're seeing these different niches that are starting to show up. And I think we're gonna start splitting into different forms of humanity, right? We're right now we're Homo sapiens sapiens, but we might be homoluminous and homo homo um what nanotech and homo, like right, like we're gonna have different homo genetic, right? Like we're gonna have different expressions of human. So it's like, how do we put our stake in the ground for the type of humanity that we want to see in the future? So we're gonna go on the road and explore other communities and and then hopefully start see what's working, see what's working, and then see what we can we can put on the ground ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Um anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

No, just to keep deepening together, yeah, have more kids, yeah. More kids, more kids, lots more kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

And like the word that keeps coming, it's elegance. I feel like with the business and with everything, I feel like there's a a a drawing into more grace, like a kind of yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Yeah, and more kids. More kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

It's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:07

Yeah, well, thank you, Katie. Thank you, Damien. Such an honor. We'll put all of your um socials and contact details in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Yeah, thanks so much for your time and energy and presence, guys. It's been a real gift. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:21

Thank you, mate.