Dialogues in International History
This podcast intends to contribute to public education by offering listeners thorough and serious conversations on topics in international history and the history of international relations. It features interviews with authors of new monographs and recent books by historians and specialists.
Dialogues in International History
Abboud Zeitoune and Abdul Mesih Bar-Abraham, *Senharib Balley and the Assyrian National Movement: Complete Translated and Edited Writings (1909-1969)*. Self-Published by the Editors. Weisbaden and Augsburg, Germany: Lulu Self-Publishing Platform, 2025.
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The revival and unity movement led by Naum Faiq gave rise to numerous influential individuals who greatly shaped the young Assyrian national movement through their literary works. Among Naum Faiq's long-time collaborators was Senharib Balley (1878-1971), who became a notable champion for the national cause, actively promoting it through his writings.
In his early years, Balley's family endured tragedy during the 1895 massacres in Amid (Diyarbakir), resulting in the deaths of his father and one brother, while he himself suffered serious injuries. In his hometown, he quickly rose to prominence as a key figure in the Intibah movement at the turn of the 20th century, playing an essential role in its growth across Upper Mesopotamia.
In the United States, Senharib Balley's name has become closely associated with the founding of various organizations, including the Assyrian American National Federation, which he co-founded in 1913. Even a few years before his death, he continued to share his insights on current Assyrian issues through different magazines.
Balley's extensive writings and correspondence provide readers with a window into the intellectual discussions that took place during a difficult fifty-year span for our people. Yet, in many respects, these works inspire a sense of bravery and assurance regarding national identity and the necessity of safeguarding it.
Hello. Welcome to the Dialogues and International History Podcast. I am your host, Mary Barbaland. Today it is my honor to engage in a dialogue with Abud Zaitoon and Abdulesi or Abraham. We will discuss their newly published book, Sunharib Ali and the Assyrian National Movement. Complete translated and edited writings 1909 to 1969. Self published by the authors, published by Vice Baden and Augsburg in Germany 2025. Abdul Mitsie Bar Abraham holds a master's in science in engineering. He serves as the chairman of the board of trustees for the Moore Afrom Foundation in Germany and the Jochen Bar Jochen Foundation. He is also the secretary of the Syriac Theological Seminary located in Salzburg, Austria. He is also a board member of the Suryoya Theological Seminary in Salzburg. From 1979 to 1983, he was the first originally certified interpreter for modern Syrian and Aramaic Toroyo for the German government at the Central Immigration Office in Zirndorf near Nuremberg, where he managed over 2,000 asylum appeal applications. He has held leadership roles in international companies in both Germany and the United States. Beyond his technical and engineering skills, he is an independent researcher who has authored numerous scholarly articles and book chapters focusing on Assyrian issues such as diaspora, migration, minority rights, genocide, language, culture, and identity. Abu Zaituna's passion for Assyrian music began at a young age, leading him to undertake a project aimed at compiling all known Assyrian music records. This endeavor culminated in the release of the first Assyrian music discography book titled Music Pearls of Beth Nareen, an Assyrian Syriac discography, which was published in Germany in 2007. Since then, he has delivered many lectures on the history and heritage of Assyrian music, both in Germany and internationally. He has also served twice on the judging committee for the Syriac Music Awards held in Sweden and Switzerland in collaboration with Suroyo TV, a Sweden-based Assyrian channel. He produced a 22-part series in 2012 and 2013 that introduced viewers to the chronology of modern Assyrian music, originally from Lebanon. He graduated from the University of Trade and Economics in 1996. Currently, he serves as compliance manager for an international rail freight company, DB Cargo. About has been active in the Assyrian national movement and is a member of several organizations in Germany, including the Assyrian Vietnam Culture and Sport Association in Weisbaden, as well as having a long-standing membership in the Assyrian democratic organization. One of Naum Fayik's longtime associates was an Arab Bali, born in 1878, died in 1971, who immersed as a prominent advocate for the national cause, actively supporting it through his writings. During his youth, Bali's family suffered during the 1895 massacres in Amid in Dir Bakir, where his father and one brother were killed, and he himself sustained serious injuries. In his hometown, he quickly became a key member of the Intibach movement at the dawn of the 20th century, playing a role in its expansion throughout Upper Mesopotamia in the United States, and Arab Valley's name has been synonymous with the establishment of numerous organizations, including the Assyrian American National Federation, which he helped found in 1913. Up until a few years before his passing, he shared his perspectives on contemporary Assyrian matters through various magazines. Bali's prolific writings and correspondence offer readers a glimpse into the intellectual discourse during a challenging 50-year period for the Assyrian people. Yet in many ways, these works still instill a sense of courage and confidence regarding national identity and the importance of preserving it. Thank you very much. Thank you. To begin, can you kindly tell us about yourselves? How did you become interested in Assyrian history? And what is your personal relationship to this particular book?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh I start uh first. Um I rose up uh in uh our uh cultural uh scene here in in the city where I live in Germany, and uh there I came in touch to with our culture cultural heritage and also politics, uh Korean politics, and uh as you mentioned, uh also my uh favor for music at the beginning and later to our uh history, and uh there is there started my um passion for for uh writing, first of all, and then for the necessity to um I would not say educate but uh at least inform our newer generation about the recent history we have. This is in short my uh passion, how how it started.
SPEAKER_04Where do Assyrians historically come from? Where are the main uh Assyrian communities located today?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh the the origin of the Assyrians lays of course in ancient Mesopotamia. Uh the there are our roots. Uh the Assyrian kingdom fall in 1612 BC with the capital of Nineveh, and also later in 50 uh uh 39 with the fall of Babylon. Since that time we didn't uh get any um I would say state or empire. Um the original origin homeland of Assyrians is Assyria, which is today divided into states of Iraq, Turkey, and Syria, the northern part of northern eastern part of uh Syria, um northern part of Iraq and the southern southeast part of Turkey. So this is the the core or main heartland of uh Assyrians uh from that time on until till today, you can say. Um the Assyrians uh became in an early stage Christians, and through this conversion they could preserve their group. So because the whole environment, all peoples around them became uh Muslims, and we uh uh stood uh um Christians, and so uh we can say today this group uh the Assyrians of that time. Uh the language we talk is derived from Akkadian or is a mix of Akkadian uh and Aramaic. Uh we have two main spoken dialects, Surah and Suras, uh, while Syriac, uh the uh the classical Syriac, I would say, uh still exists as a liturgical language in the churches, in um in our churches. So this is in short uh uh some information about the Assyrians and their uh origin.
SPEAKER_04What happened to the Assyrian population during and after World War I?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if I may uh take that uh question, please. Actually, the first world war was a very catastrophic uh turning point uh for the Assyrians. Uh, from 1914, 15 onwards, Assyrian communities, and uh this is true for all denominations. Uh, I would mention the Syriac churches. Uh we have four or five denominations uh as churches, but all of them use uh Syriac language. And um, they were living in the Ottoman Empire mostly and in northwestern Persia, and they were subjected to massacres, deportation, forced displacement, and uh the destruction of their villages. This is what um Assyrians actually refer to as Seifo's war, or even the year of this war. So the genocide uh is uh often uh of the Assyrians uh population uh is uh internally uh referred to as Seifo. They had um uh during that time they had lost not only family members but also villages, uh churches, schools, and much much of their uh traditional homeland. Uh most of the intellectuals uh living in their um region uh were killed. But uh the story did not simply end uh uh with the war ending in 1918, the first world war. The survivors were uh dispersed across Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Lebanon, the Caucasus, and increasingly, of course, the United States and other parts of the diaspora. So for people like uh Sanhari Bali, the genocide and um the loss of the homeland transformed the meaning of politics. Before the World War I, the question was largely how Assyrians could secure recognition and rights within the Ottoman Empire. After the genocide, the question became much more fundamental. So the question then was how can a people survive politically, culturally, and physically after the destruction of its historic communities and homeland? This is in short, I think, uh what happened, and uh we are still, let me say, uh, the consequences uh of this uh catastrophic uh event, uh we are living them through generations.
SPEAKER_04Can you tell us about Assyrian communities in the Middle East today and in the diaspora today? How large are these communities?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, due to the permanent persecution and massacres which Abdul Massey mentioned, uh the number of Assyrians in the homeland is uh decimated. That means that today we can say, it's my estimation, of course, uh, that around 300 to 400 uh people live in the origin area, which I mentioned in the first question. Uh the majority of the Assyrian people live in diaspora communities, mainly in the USA, uh in Europe, almost uh West European countries and Australia. We have also small communities in Armenia and Russia. Uh so at the total number is estimated between three and four million people worldwide.
SPEAKER_04To what extent is the Assyrian question still a question of survival as opposed to one of cultural or historical identity?
SPEAKER_01Yes, um, I think we have uh to distinguish uh between the situation in the homeland and um that of the diaspora, because um the meaning of survival is different in these two contexts. Uh, in the Assyrian homeland, particularly, and we are talking about today in parts of Turkey, Iraq, and Syria, the question is still very directly one of physical and communal survival. The political upheavals, wars, displacement, the rise of ISIS, demographic changes, and the weakening or disappearance of historic Assyrian communities have made survival a very concrete issue for the Assyrians in the homeland. It's about whether Assyrians can continue to live in their ancestral towns and villages, whether they can return after displacement, see Syria and Iraq, and whether they have security and political protection, and whether there will be still viable Assyrian communities there for the next generation to come. So the situation in the diaspora, on the other hand, and particularly in the free and more stable societies of the West, like Europe, uh United States, Australia, is fundamentally different. Uh, here on the diaspora, the Assyrians generally do not face the same immediate threat to their physical security. The challenge is much more one of cultural, linguistic, and historical survival. So maintaining the language, transmitting traditions with such books as Sanharibali held and collective memory, preserving institutions and ensuring that younger generation continue to identify themselves as Assyrian. Abud also pointed to that earlier. But I would not see this as two completely separate questions. They are deeply interconnected. If Assyrian communities disappear from the historic homeland, that inevitably affects the identity and historical consciousness of the diaspora. And conversely, a strong and organized diaspora with a civil society can help sustain the communities in the homeland politically, financially, and culturally. In that sense, I would say survival remains at the heart of the Assyrian question. But survival has different meanings depending on where you live. In the homeland, it can still mean the survival of a community as a physical presence as a small community. In the diaspora, it means ensuring that the people who have survived displacement do not gradually disappear through assimilation or the loss of their language and historical memory. And this distinction also helps us understand Bali's relevance today. In this generation, the two dimensions were already intervened. The experience of violence and displacement created the need for political protection, while education, language, organization, and historical consciousness were seen as essential tools for ensuring that the Assyrian people would survive as a people. In fact, we are going through similar experiences and issues that Sanhari and his companions went through 100 years ago. At that time, the Assyrian migration was targeted to the United States. Nowadays, Assyrian migration is globally Europe, North America, and Australia. Bali and his companions had to think about the two dimensions that I pointed to. The two dimensions of survival, homeland and diaspora. This underlines, I think, very much the importance of Sanhari's writings.
SPEAKER_04If you don't want me asking a follow-up question, in light of what you've just said, do you feel comfortable commenting on the consequences for Assyrian questions of ISIS and Daesh?
SPEAKER_01And it's a perfect. I mean, if if you look at Iraq, for instance, we had um four uh Iraq was involved in in four um uh wars basically. It started with um Iraq during Saddam era, with the Iran-Iraq war, then the first uh Iraq war uh in 1990, 91. Uh the father Bush, uh basically, uh, when uh Iraq uh uh invaded uh Kuwait, yeah, and um so American um uh uh and a large coalition basically uh fought against uh Iraq. And then we have uh the 2003 um uh war. Uh in addition, of course, we have um uh and and the consequences were very catastrophic. The overthrow of Saddam, of course, Assyrians were not favored uh to Saddam, but the overthrow of uh Saddam had uh uh catastrophic consequences, and so many uh military groups came uh uh to to existence, and uh very radical group, Islamic groups, and uh Assyrians were under threat, and uh this led, of course, to multiple waves of migration uh from Iraq, and then we switched to Syria. It started with 211 basically and ended uh just uh two years ago, basically, and um uh during that time about uh 60-70 percent of the Christian population, I can only talk for those uh populations that had to leave the area. And um, in in the middle of that time, uh, we have also the onslaught of ISIS, which specifically targeted minorities like Assyrians and Yazidis and other uh minorities. And uh so all of uh these wars, uh the wars were very, very catastrophic uh for um the Assyrians.
SPEAKER_02Your book deals with the Assyrian national movement.
SPEAKER_04What were the principal ideas at the heart of this movement?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh the national movements of almost all people in the Middle East started uh after the French Revolution, uh, which hold the hold uh held the slogans Liberty, Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity. Uh, the same slogans were propagated by the young Turks at the beginning, of course, of their political activities, which will be which changed later, of course. Uh, for the other peoples is similar for Armenians and for the Assyrians, uh, Assyrian fathers of the national movement, uh, was the idea of awakening the people the first task. Uh, this means to organize on community issues like schools, libraries, and newspapers. Um, on the basis of these ideas and taking other people, people like Armenians as role model, the Assyrians founded the Intibah Society uh as an umbrella organization of around 14 local associations in Upper Mesopotamia. Upper Mesopotamia means um you can say geographically uh Mosul, Mardin, Diarbakir, Harput, Orfa. This was the region where these uh um branches were. Um the headquarters of this organization was Diyarbakir Amit, where many intellectuals of that time resided. Among them, of course, uh the main person was uh Naun Faeb, and also uh his um comrade or friend uh Sanhari Bali. So this is in short about uh how the national movement or uh um uh came to to that area and especially for the Assyrians. It was the beginning before the First World War. And there it started this this national feeling and national uh the in general the national movement.
SPEAKER_04Why was this book released roughly 60 years after the death of Sanhari Bali?
SPEAKER_00Well uh there are different uh reasons. Um as mentioned before uh Sanhari Bali was a key figure in establishing the modern national movement beside Naum Faich and others he also he was also president of the local Intiba Society in Diyarbakir 1909. Sanhari was born in 1878 in Diarbakir um after his emigration to the US in early 1930 he became active also there in the established in the established already established branch of Intiba and started there his own newspaper name was Sautot Othuroi or Echo of Assyrians of the Assyrians and he was active in establishing many organizations um and one of them is still existent it's the Assyrian American National Federation which was founded in 1933. Well um Sanari died in 1971 in New Jersey uh till his death nobody collected his writings or published a lengthy biography of him so many magazines where he wrote in were dispersed or supposedly lost also uh the collection and digitalization of old documents started professionally within short life organization uh Mara Modern Assyrian Research Archive which was located in Sweden between the years 2008 and 2010 um through this project we could reach a main part of the magazines and documents which are part of the book we review today so this is the basis and and uh the main the main reason is uh we lost at the beginning a lot of uh documents and magazines maybe i can talk about later what we uh exactly uh found what we uh still miss also please if i may i add there if i may add something uh uh to uh to that abud i think the most credit uh goes uh to abud uh in this case uh it was not just having the material from the modern research archive it was uh the a very very detailed selection of the articles from multiple uh magazines that he mentioned to pick them up and and then of course uh came then the work that we have done translating them uh into into modern languages or european languages so that that that credit really goes to abud and thank you for him thank you almasi i will add uh something else for listeners who are not so deep in this material um the writings are in um Syriac letters but in mostly in uh ottoman Turkish so uh we we said to that Garshuni and the same we have um arabic letters uh so he wrote in two two languages but uh the first uh um constellation with the Garshuni uh texts are complicated because first of all there are not so many um uh professionals who can uh transcript and translate these old uh articles so this was the first challenge until we found two or three colleagues among our community of course because if you wanted to understand his writing you have first of all to uh to be able to read Syriac letters and to understand Ottoman Turkish so uh these are very rare people we have in our community we I could identify two of them or three of them who um helped us first of all to transcribe the let to the origin articles to Latin letters and then from Latin letters uh Ottoman Latin letters to modern Turkish and then this was the basis where Abdel Masih came in the in the this uh project where then abdul Masih translated from Turkish to English this is the first the first the first language the second language is Arabic he wrote also in Arabic and Arabic is of course now uh available everywhere also via um um machine translating i um i can read i can understand uh arabic this was my part to translate those articles so this is the two parts we we are the two um obstacles we had beside the the rare materials we have uh we have also the obstacle of the um languages we did we dealt with what resources allow us to reconstruct Sahara Valley's political thought and activities yes um sanhari uh uh himself didn't publish any books uh all his ideas were published in different magazines in Turkey in the US and in Argentina um we meet his first article in 1909 in the magazine Murshid Asuriyun or the Assyrian Guide which was published by Ashur Yusuf um um a further main figure of Assyrian national movement uh where where he was residing or the magazine was published in Kharput the city north of Diarbakir around 160 kilometers uh north of Diyarbakir um then we have uh a lot of other magazines where we found articles of Sanharib uh we have um first of all his own magazine uh I mentioned that already uh Sautot Othuroe or Echo of the Assyrians um unfortunately um we know that he he released 18 different issues of this magazine we have now access only to one issue so that means 17 issues is are still lost we hope to find them sometime and the other magazines are uh Bethnahrin of Naum Fayq Bethnahin is Mesopotamia uh this was also a magazine which started in 1960 until 1930 is till his uh the death of Naum Fayh there we found a lot of articles uh by uh Sanhari Bali then we have Babylon this is another obstacle I didn't mention that uh in the uh uh prior um question um babylon was written in uh armenian uh and also sometimes in Armenian letters but in Turkish language it's again something like Gershuni but the writings of Sanharib we found them um in the classical Gershuni that means Syriac letters and Ottoman language uh then we have the new Assyria it was a further magazine which was published in New York uh we have Huyodo the Union where um Sanharib was a member of the editorship of this magazine now was the editor uh the main editor and uh can say Sanharib was a co-auditor of of this uh magazine then we have a magazine from Beirut from Lebanon Le Shonod Umtho uh language of the nation and uh the Arabic part we found uh many articles in Assyria which was published in Buenos Aires by the known uh Farid Nuzha who came to Argentina in 1911 so there we found uh the later articles of Sanhari Bali till 1969 this is in short the the the collection of magazines where we found his his writings as I said he didn't publish any books but a lot of writings I think we have over 70 uh identified over 70 articles uh written by him so maybe maybe again a comment uh I think uh with what About outlined um you can realize that this is not a mere translation of a text uh from one uh language to another uh it required not only the uh specific collection and getting access to the documents mostly lost but uh uh also a very specialized uh knowledge in order to transform them into an understandable language of today uh from where you can then translate it into English or German language. And of course you should come from the the community itself because the historical context is very important in these articles. So there are many um locations for example mentioned or persons so only one Assyrian from the area from this tradition and culture can uh professionally translate uh such articles as a follow-up question if you don't let me asking this what were Sanhara Bali's opinions on current events during his time well there are uh yes what I would say um first of all uh maybe we have to talk about uh the first uh organization where he entered as the Intiba Society at the beginning it was organizing the own community because um you can imagine that at that time uh the minorities or the Christian denominations were uh recognized as churches not as as a nation as we understand it today so the first task was to unify all Assyrian denominated denominations of different churches of course this is it was at that time a large or a big uh um goal but at the end uh we see that he supported um uh especially after world war one and after genocide we uh had uh uh an own uh Assyrian homeland uh which is in that region which was demanded for that region I mentioned already in upper Mesopotamia this was of course the the main um um goal that he uh fought for besides the other topics as I said like uh awakening in general printing books uh publishing magazines and so on uh politically it was after uh world war one the Assyrian homeland which uh and many parts of the Assyrian nation by the way demanded also can you provide a short biography of Sahara Bali well I I mentioned some uh key uh points of his life as a sen as I said uh he was born end of 1878 in the Arbakr to Petros and his father father's name was petros and uh Hormik Boros Sigiliyan his mother was Armenian by the way um you mentioned already in 1895 during the Hamidian massacres his father his brother and uh the wife of his brother were murdered or killed Sanhari himself was injured in this uh massacre in in Diarbakir um then we uh read that he was um or we assume that he was one of the founding members of the Intiba Society in Diarbakir and uh in 1909 we see that he is the president of this main um branch in Diarbakir um and where we found also his article in uh the magazine Murshit Arthuryun in 1909 um in January 1913 he immigrated to the to the US and resided in New Jersey uh and directly in that same year he started to publish his magazine Sautot Othoroi till 1915 we know that there were 18 issues as I said we have only one issue now in our hands um he was an active member and founding member of different organizations uh like uh the school association uh the um taoim simkat we said in assyrian um then the Assyrian National Association the former organization of the Assyrian American uh federation then we had the Assyrian American Educational Society uh so he was always a one one a mostly active member and also in many times a founding member of such organizations and uh to his articles we said uh something about that that he contributed uh lot of articles to many magazines i talk about that already which magazines that there was um he was always consulted in national issues like um the delegation to the Paris uh peace conference in 1919 and 1920 uh where uh the american Assyrians appointed Dr. uh Abraham Yusuf and Dr Jouil Warda to travel to Paris and London um Sanharib had three three sons and one daughter and he died in July 1971 in New Jersey do we consider Sanharib Bali a politician an intellectual an activist or something else yeah interesting question I think we would both hesitate uh to put him into only one category because uh Bali was um primarily an activist and political intellectual uh someone who thought uh through writing organization and public engagement rather than through formal political office which didn't exist. He was deeply involved in the Assyrian national movement as Abu Dad outlined and in the organizations uh that emerged uh around it he was also a writer and journalist whose article addressed political developments communal affairs identity and the future of the Assyrian people at the same time he was a co-founder of several subcultural organizations uh particularly in the US as Abud uh stated so what makes him particularly interesting is that he was not only simply producing political theory from a distance his thinking came out of experience and involvement in Assyrian matters he had witnessed violence himself became involved in the Intiba movement or already back in the Arbaker initiated by Naunfire and worked closely with the letter and later continued his organizational political in the United States so he was um I would um describe him as a political activist with a strong intellectual and journalistic dimension if you don't mind me asking this as a follow-up question can you comment on relations between Armenians and Assyrians during Sahib Valley's time how did the Saharab Valley perceive Armenians the Armenian genocide the Hamidian massacres and can you comment on the fate of Assyrians during these events yeah maybe from my side a short but maybe Abu can um elaborate more on that um I think uh Armenians were always viewed by um our intellectuals of that time as a as an example of an advanced community uh of course uh many did not share the uh let me say uh extreme political uh ambitions um uh for um let me say separation uh from the Ottoman Empire which existed of course the move the whole uh Armenian movement so um uh but in general um they were regarded as um educated and at many cultural uh and educational institutions and in the articles uh there are very often uh references uh to the Armenians but uh maybe abut can add uh something to that yes um we have uh as as mentioned uh uh armenians were seen as a role model in in in different uh areas uh for example starting starting with music uh a very simple uh topic that uh nahum fayek wrote in his um poem poetry books that uh he always uh made um a comparison between Assyrians and Armenians while Armenians had their own songs their own patriotic songs and we Assyrians didn't have that so he started to write um patriotic songs too it was this was in the time of the Arbakir of course in 1909 that around that time um but we see the also uh cooperation between both sides especially after the uh genocide in in the US uh the um uh Near East relief which was uh established in the US so we see both sides working in this organization which was um established to help uh the orphanages uh in the Middle East so we see or we re we read about their cooperation of that time and also in the US uh we see that they had also meetings together so um it was it was uh and one thing i i want to uh uh also say say that uh the uh Syriac Orthodox Church was um uh what I said uh for the Ottoman um um sultan it was the Armenian church which was recognized and under the Armenian church was the Syriac Orthodox that means we were part of the bigger Armenian millet we would say and uh represent uh which the Armenian patriarch was representing us as well so this was just a little history in the uh in the 19th century and afterwards of course everything changes uh with the uh genocide but uh this uh uh show also the the the connection between both people and in the area history if you go back to the uh first uh centuries of Christianity so we have uh a lot of involvement between Armenians and um Assyrians uh Armenians used at the beginning also Syriac letters by the way and then uh invented their own Armenian letters so this in short about the connection to Armenians I don't know if is it this uh fits to your uh question the answer thank you generously thank you can you comment on the social and political circumstances that shaped some Harrow Bali's thinking if I may answer that so Bali's thinking was really shaped uh by the period of enormous upheavals and transformation he grew up in the late Ottoman Empire in the Arbakar at the time when traditional structures and coexistence were under increasing pressure from nationalism centralization and political violence the massacres of eighteen ninety five were formative personal experience of Sanhari later with the revolution of nineteen oh the Turkish revolution of the youngsters came the young turiod then the first world war the sefo the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the redrawing of the Middle East and the emergence of nation states so there was also internal challenges Assyrian
SPEAKER_01were divided among different churches as pointed out earlier, while political movements increasingly demanded a common national identity. So this explained why Bali placed such importance on unity, education, the press, language and organization. For him, national consciousness was not an abstract idea. It was a practical means of ensuring that Assyrian would not disappear politically and culturally.
SPEAKER_00I think that in a nutshell is is uh uh what uh um uh basically shaped uh Sanharib's valley thinking if you don't want me asking to to to elaborate what happened to Sanharib Valley during the massacres of 1895 and 1896 in Tiarba kir what specifically occurred well um um the Hamidiyya regiments uh which were uh part of the Ottoman um military you can say or paramilitary of the Ottoman uh government uh they stormed all Christian uh houses and one of them was the house of Sanhari Bari and uh they uh suppose that he he's he's died uh because he lay there and injured and uh he he they thought that he is killed and so they left them left him so at the end he was injured and his father uh his brother and the wife of his brother were killed uh in that uh massacre um this was a massacre uh for for the Arbakir only for three or four days at the end but in total uh we estimate I think 30 000 uh uh killed Christians for mostly Armenians and Assyrians were killed in this in this one or two months which this uh uh killing or these massacres were uh this in short what in what we know about uh this time also Naum Faich who wrote a little about that uh Naum Faich all all Assyrians of uh Diyarbakir fled to the uh virgin church uh Saint Mary uh in in the Arbakir they fled there and uh till the patriarch came and uh with the connection his connections to the governor uh the the massacre could be stopped uh for at least for the Assyrians in the Arbakir this is what we know about this uh massacre um which uh is documented of course in one of two um articles what were the main goals of the Intiba Society the Intiba Society as I mentioned before it was the first uh secular organization within Assyrians um in the homeland um the aim of the society was to organize the people first of all uh to be connected and uh the main goals were like of course the the long uh term goal was to unify all Assyrian denominations uh of different churches um that means Syriac Orthodox uh Chaldean Church of the East and other fractions of protestant uh Protestants uh but uh practically they started with uh very uh smaller uh targets like opening schools for boys and girls uh promoting and reviving the Syriac language printing books publishing newspapers and uh it's also uh something uh very uh um practical or pragmatic register all real estates of the community that means to make a cataster of all uh monasteries or churches or buildings which belong to the community uh this was the first uh time in history where where they started such a uh um catalog I would say yeah but uh one one one more about uh intibar it was a short short life uh organization uh uh established in eight in 1908 and ended with the beginning of the massacres or the genocide in 1940 after that we we don't found any um uh hints about this this uh organization we know that many of the leaders of this organization were killed uh this we know that but uh after that uh there were no uh branch left uh in the area in the whole area um i think um as a as an addition to that um um from a today perspective i think we can view the intiba movement as a first attempt of an emerging uh civil society within the Ottoman Empire that first time uh civil people basically took into hand to organize the community that Bis dato uh to that time uh basically only church leaders uh had to issue or had to deal with the community uh questions or interactions with outside or with other communities or with the state or with the Ottoman government. So from that perspective it is a very remarkable um uh era and uh again thanks to Abud in his uh both in his book uh about Narum Faya he basically outlined uh the very details of of the Intipash society that uh we came also across in the Sunharib uh Bali book if you don't let me ask you a follow-up question in that of what you've shared what can someone learn from this book about secularization in modern Assyrian history how did the Syriac Orthodox church respond to secularization what can the life of Sanhara Bali teach us about processes of secularization well uh at the beginning uh if we see the intibar movement uh there were uh many um um church members not members clerical clerics uh for example um Afrem Barsom which became later a patriarch of the church in the time in that time he was a monk and he was uh the leader or the president of the Mosul branch of this uh organization so at the beginning uh we can see that the church uh is motivating the people to organize themselves uh but uh at the end uh this is what we find out that as strong the church became stronger than before uh it uh yes it it uh avoided this it avoid avoided this this uh organization and uh became stronger the the church became stronger and uh people uh um yes i would say um uh as with with the genocide all the thoughts of this secularization uh became weaker so and so in in conclusion i would say at the beginning it was a a uh cooperation between both sides but at the end uh the church was uh yes the leader of the nation the leader of the nation i would say but of course uh when when i talk about nation i mean of course all churches but um this this counts also for the other churches uh at the end uh the church hierarchy was stronger than the secular hierarchy how did Assyrian nationalists like Sunharic Valley view the new states that emerged in the Middle East after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire I think the attitude uh of the nationalists were complicated they did not uh necessarily reject the idea of uh the new states but they were deeply concerned that the creation of this state could simply replace one form of political marginalization with another so Assyrian nationalists had uh hoped that the collapse of the Ottoman Empire might finally create an opportunity for political recognition security and some form of territorial or autonomous arrangements for the Assyrian for this reason Bali was one of the key promoters to send Assyrian delegation as Abud mentioned from the US to the Paris peace conference in 1990 the guiding principle formulated by the US by the then President Woodrow Wilson in his 14 points which advocated among other things the right to national self-determination the protection of minority rights and a peaceful reorganization of ethnically mixed territories this raised great hopes among the non-Turkish and non-Muslim population groups of the crumbling Ottoman Empire including Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds and even Arabs.
SPEAKER_01However their efforts were hampered by a lack of political influence as well as military and economic support. So instead Assyrian communities found themselves divided between the new political entities such as Turkey Iraq and Syria while large parts of the historic settlement areas remained outside any Assyrian political control this is one of the great disappointments of the period the Ottoman Empire had collapsed but the Assyrian question had not been solved.
SPEAKER_00So Bali or Bali's writing I should say are therefore interesting because they reveal how Assyrians try to understand a rapidly changing political map and to find a place within it rather than simply becoming passive minorities his political activity in the United States also demonstrates that he increasingly understood the diaspora as an important instrument for representing Assyrian interest what did you discover about Sahara Valley that surprised you most during your research well if I recall my knowledge my knowledge only five years before today I would say I knew his name I knew he was uh an important uh nationalist within our movement and that's all um his name uh kept alive uh in combination with the other names like Naum Fair and Ashur Yusuf but uh with beginning with uh uh the transcription and the translation of his articles um we know now of course more um what uh what what I was where I was surprised was his involvement in so many associations and I wonder why these associations didn't kept his his legacy alive um as I mentioned um a lot of them um and then uh at the end of course his progressive thoughts regarding secularism he was a very strong uh opponent of the cleric of course uh if you read his articles um um understandable uh positions uh but very clear for that time I said that in in an another interview that if I would um said these his words today this is a taboo in our community if I uh recite him what what he wrote in in in written and not in his speech so he was very um uh uh offensive but uh very clear in his thoughts this these are the three points where I was uh surprised not no uh what do you think yeah I think um I I agree with you as uh you said uh I was also more surprised um by the continuity of his political engagement uh over such a long period and with so many organizations so his uh motivation must be very uh uh very very strong I would it would be easy to imagine Bali as a figure belonging to the generation of the First World War and then disappearing in history but the sources show something quite different he remained engaged with the Syrian question for decades and continued expressing his views in publication almost until his end of life I was also struck by how much of his work was organizational rather than purely theoretical.
SPEAKER_01He understood that national consciousness requires institutions and this means associations, newspaper networks and people who are willing to do the sometimes very unglamorous work of keeping a community organized. And perhaps the most striking thing is that many of the questions he was wrestling with unity, political representation, language, identity, and the relationship between homeland and diaspora still sound remarkably contemporary to us. Another surprising aspect to point to is probably his broad and diverse education in history, sociology, his interest in reading journals in other languages and not least his appreciation for the great figures of Assyrian history.
SPEAKER_00So striking examples in the book are uh his uh professor Asher Yusuf who was killed 1915 in Harput at Daishir Bishop of Field 1915 and last but not least of course his uh very close friend Naum Fayek in light of what you've mentioned if you don't want to ask me this as a follow-up question what was the relationship like between Senharib Bailey and Naum Fayek what were their interactions like well um I assume that Sanhari was a pupil of Naum because Naum is 10 years older than uh Sanhari and I assume we don't have evidence about that but I assume that Senhari was a student of uh Naum Fayh in the Yarbakir because Naum was a teacher uh in the uh a community school there in the Yarbakir and I assume that Sanhari was one of his pupils um but after that uh at least uh with the Intiba they were working together because Naum counts as founder of the Intiba Association and Sanhari as at least I think the second president in the in the in the sequence uh in 1909 so this they lived together till the death of Naum Fayek even in the US uh they worked very closely together they um um like uh the the in betnaharin as I said we have a lot of articles uh and uh uh hoyodo the union which was uh published only one year uh they were um yes uh sanharib was co-editor and main auditor was uh editor was uh naum and uh sanharib wrote in in his eulogy about naum that uh they met uh maybe weekly or daily basis they sat together they read books and they exchanged uh their thoughts so there is a very very close relationship between both yes that's that is true there is uh actually an article he writes that um uh towards the end of life of Naum Fayah so they were really close friends here i i don't think that uh the difference in the age made uh so much difference um to their friendship so uh bailey writes that um uh every time uh naum fire came to him he brought always a couple books meet with him and uh so they were the basis for their discussions and this shows me the uh intellectual continuity until that age i mean this is remarkable really and uh excellent example of uh of leadership yes how does this book change or complicate the prevailing wisdom regarding the origins of Assyrian nationalism well I say uh the the following sentences not because I'm the author of uh the books of Naum Faih or co-author of Sanharib's book but I would say uh the books of Naum and Sanhari are eye-opener regarding our recent and crucial history of the 20th century um the reasons of our decimation should be searched in this period and uh we should also learn from mistakes and success of that time this is something natural in in all uh nations but uh in our case we had a lack of sources as as I mentioned before we lost a lot of material and now we have this material and now we can dig deeper and uh as we already talked about we found a lot of um I would say um um effects or deja vues also which we say oh we live the same period now as before 100 years so if we would know what happens in before 100 years we can we could learn from that maybe for this for today and this is my conclusion at the end that these books not only these two books of course we have uh some other books of some other friends which were we are a network of colleagues and this is um rewriting you would say the history we know we it was more a black um not black but but uh unknown history I would say and now we have more insight in this time so this is my conclusion that this this this um work is an opener for for further uh research also if you don't let me ask you a follow-up question what lessons did sanhara valley perceive from Assyrian history what patterns did he notice what overarching themes did he learn and discern from his knowledge of Assyrian history well if I understand your question right is that he always makes a reflection to the older history uh what where we fail to defense ourselves for example uh that he argues that we should be organized yes this was a question where we also within the genocide was uh victims of of genocide because what we were not prepared and not organized and the same we had seen uh while ISIS uh came to Iraq for example the Nineveh plains it's it's uh it's mostly inhabited by Assyrians but we they were not uh prepared for for such a uh storm of of um militia so if we are organized if we are prepared we are aware of signs of um uh danger so we can uh save ourselves and uh we have unfortunately uh we have a lot of samples in Our history, starting from the Islamic conquest, then the Mongol conquest, then the Ottoman conquest, then the um uh genocide, and till today, till ISIS. So we have uh repeatedly every 20-30 years, we have massacres and flight, and so on. So this is the main topic where Sanharib says we have to learn about uh from lessons from this history.
SPEAKER_01I think maybe as a as an addition, uh as Abut um mentioned, uh the reference to the uh ancient history where Assyrian Empire existed. Uh there's always uh references with Proud, but uh this was only by him given as a reference to follow. But uh that uh he was always saying that requires, of course, a lot of engagement in order to do that. Otherwise, it's it's uh it doesn't mean anything. Another thing, another issue was his critical role about uh, let me say uh how the church um yeah not undermined but maybe uh suppressed uh everything that has to do with identity, with history, with civil history. We in our um in our history books we read only about bishops, patriarchs, monks, and monasteries, but nothing about civil life uh across uh 2000 years of Christian uh uh uh uh belonging. And uh that was also a point of uh of criticism uh by him.
SPEAKER_04How much of the political agenda articulated by Sanharib Bali remains relevant to Assyrians today?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very interesting question uh indeed. Um uh and I would say Abud may might um agree with me uh that a great deal uh uh uh of uh of it remains uh still relevant, although the circumstances have wisely changed. Bali was concerned with several fundamental issues. These were political recognition, communal unity, education, preservation of language and culture, organization and protection of Assyrian communities in the homeland. None of these questions has disappeared. In fact, reading Bali's article is like having a deja vu. A boot pointed to that. It's unfortunate that his writings remained, of course, unexplored for almost half a century. What has changed in the political environment? Bali was responding to the collapse of an empire and the formation of a new state. Today's Assyrians live in a world of established nation-state, mass migration, and large global diaspora. But the underlying question is remarkably similar. How can Assyrians maintain a collective identity and political voice without becoming isolated from the societies in which they live? That is why I think Bali is uh more than a historical figure. He gives us a historical perspective on debates that Assyrians are still having today.
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, we'll add uh one or two points to this statement. Um I think he would criticize the minor willingness um uh uh to cooperate with each other within the Assyrian communities. Uh, this means um that we see in his time he didn't make any difference between Assyrians from different countries or different churches. So we have this um uh phenomenon uh today that uh each church uh uh separates itself from the other. The the thinking as a nation is less than that time. Um and the second point is he will be surprised about the dominant position of churches today or church leader today. This was not the case in his time. Uh so these two points uh changed uh since since uh the main time of uh Sanhari Bali.
SPEAKER_04In light of uh what you've just shared, uh what do you see as this book's contribution to our understanding of modern Syria modern Assyrian intellectual history?
SPEAKER_00Uh well as I said already, because uh only uh if we go back five or five or six years, this was uh an unknown field because the because of lack of of um documents and resources. Now we have these resources and we have managed to uh transcript and translate it. So this is very important, at least for uh Assyrians themselves, and uh of course, as part of the history of minorities in the Ottoman Empire and beyond. Uh, so if if uh an outsider wants to inform uh himself about the Ottoman politic regarding minorities, uh it's very important to know these books. Um, and also it's important to understand the decimation of Christians from 20% to now maybe 1% in the region within only 100 years. Um, and besides that, it's important to understand the mosaic of people living today in this hotly contested uh region. So these are the topics which I said for a non-Assyrian reader is maybe interesting.
SPEAKER_04If Sunhara Bali were alive today, what do you think he would recognize immediately in the contemporary Assyrian political situation? What would surprise him?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. I think he would um recognize the denominational and political fragmentation immediately. Uh he would recognize the debates over identity, unity, representation, language, and the future of Assyrian communities in the Middle East. He would probably also recognize some tensions between homeland politics and diaspora politics. But what would surprise him most, I think so, would be the scale of the diaspora. Pali himself already understood the importance of Assyrian communities in the United States. But he could hardly have imagined today's global Assyrian network with communities spread across Europe, North America, and Australia and connected instantaneously, so immediately through modern technologies of the internet. How his own organizational uh work in the United States is an entirely example of his diaspora dimension. At the same time, he might be surprised that more than a century later some of the fundamental questions he was asking have not disappeared. And perhaps that would be both encouraging and troubling for him. The survival of the Assyrian identity would prove that his generation achieved something, but the persistence of the political problem would also show how much remains unsolved.
SPEAKER_04If you don't want to be asking this as a follow-up question, in what ways can this book inspire the reader toward ethical action? Is there anything that you hope the reader would introspect about morally or would reflect in regard to questions of ethics and morality?
SPEAKER_00Well, there are there are two directions, as I said, uh already. Uh, first of all, the inner Assyrian uh view. The inner Assyrian view is, in my opinion, is to know the own history. So um, for example, one of our colleagues from our network uh wondered that his grandfather is mentioned in one of the articles, so that you can see there the direct uh connection between the the articles Sanhari brought and uh what we uh uh see today. And uh, of course, uh for the content, uh the ideas they are still valid today. We need schools today, as before 100 years. We need a lot of schools today. Uh, if you see uh in the whole diaspora, I can talk for Europe, for example, we don't have uh two schools where Assyrian is teaching, so the language is dying, and this is this was one of the main topics for Sanhari Bali. So this is an action required today, and taking Sanhari Bali as as father of this idea, um also the the the distribution of knowledge that means uh releasing books, reading books, uh uh newspapers. Of course, we have today internet and social media, which killed a lot of uh our uh publications, but all these issues, the connection between the the parts of this nation, it was uh uh one of his goals, and this uh could be could be accomplished today in a very easy way, by the way. Even this through through through the techniques we have today, uh the the uh social media, uh it's very very uh simple to get in in contact with other communities worldwide. So there are a lot of topics uh where we and something else, uh Bali was a very uh he was uh what I say intellectual in his reading, because if you read his articles, you will say that he read a lot of books of his time and before his time, so he he um we can see uh citations of these books. So it's it's also an electrical intellectual um issue to read uh these books.
SPEAKER_04Why should someone who knows nothing about Assyrians read this book today? Why should someone who has never heard of Sanharib Valley?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's it's not an entry book for the Assyrian uh um history or Assyrian people, it's a more for advanced read, I would say, because um uh the book is is uh only a s uh snippet of uh uh period we are talking about. So it's it's not a general book about Assyrians. So if if an outsider wants to learn who are Assyrians, I think it's not enough uh because it's uh she should be read some other books and then switch over to Naum Faif and Sanhari Bali.
SPEAKER_01That's that's true. Uh as Abu said, you need uh the historical context, I think, uh uh to uh place uh Sanhari Bali uh in a proper uh uh place. Um but um uh uh the book um is ultimately uh much more than uh one uh about one Assyrian activist and intellectual. It's about what happens to a community when an empire collapses, when borders are redrawn, when people experience genocide and displacement, and when survivors have to reconstruct a collective identity under completely new political circumstances. I think, in essence, uh this answers the question. So Bali's life uh gives us a human perspective on those enormous historical processes. And the book is particularly valuable because it brings together his writings and correspondence uh that um uh Abu got access to even from family members, allowing readers to encounter his ideas rather than simply receiving a biography written about him. For readers who know nothing about Assyrians, the book can therefore open a window into a history that is often missing from conventional accounts of the modern Middle East. But there is also a broader reason to read it. Bally's question about identity, minority rights, political representation, displacement, and survival of a people are not confined to a Syrian history. There are questions that remain relevant wherever communities are trying to preserve the identity in the aftermath of political violence and forced migration. And that ultimately is why Bali matters or remains important today. He reminds us that history is not only about what happened to people, it's also what people tried to do after history happened to them.
SPEAKER_02Where can someone acquire this book?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh we publish this book in in uh print uh on demand uh platform, it's lulu.com. There you can find it via the search of our name or uh Sanhari Bali. So you can find it there. It's by the way, it's published in German and in English. So we have two versions of it, so be aware about which version you uh purchase. Uh then if if you want, I invite you to visit me on my personal website, which is uh abudzeun.com. There you find also uh the other books, of course, about Naum Feich and Sanhari Bali. Uh so these are two ways where to uh order uh the book and all the other books too.
SPEAKER_02As we end, can you kindly tell us about where you've devoted your attention since completing this project?
SPEAKER_00Well, as uh a new project, uh do you I ask for a new what we do for us as uh follow-up projects, right?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, um from my side I published already 17 books. Uh so after uh Sanharid Bali, we uh I published um uh some other books uh dealing with uh early um um national songs. We recorded them new, we have a new recording, new arrangement, and they are uh published as a book with a QR code. And we have also um uh I have uh two books in German and in Arabic, and also uh there will be an English version uh about in new another person in our um awakening uh movement, I would say. Uh this is already uh published in German and in um Arabic, and as I said, in English is in preparation. And uh we are still working on the other uh names we mentioned here, like Ashur Yusuf, who had also his own magazine, and we are starting to uh transcript and translate his articles. This, in short, what from my side, uh maybe Abdul Massi have also further projects.
SPEAKER_01No, actually, uh not not really, not so much as uh but uh is involved, but um yeah, writing a couple articles uh just finished uh as book chapters, and uh planning um to uh let me say edit an anthology uh on the uh topic such that um uh Bali and and on fire were active on it uh about uh civic uh society, uh whether we have managed uh as a community to develop into a society or are we still a community? And this uh we started uh discussions in in video podcasts, and uh we would like to evolve them into uh, let me say, initial book of thoughts on the issue, just to have a broader discussion uh on on the topic, how we develop uh ourselves in the diaspora.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Uh thank you too, Ari for this uh uh interview. We are very um happy uh for asking us for this to do this interview. It's not common that I would say don't send me wrong, outsiders ask for our works. Uh it's mostly an internal uh we have a lot of internal interviews, of course, but uh that uh from other from the outside or especially from the academic world, uh they're getting more and more interesting in this topic. Uh that's we feel that uh we know that, but uh there are rarely interviews in this deepness, and thank you very much for that.
SPEAKER_04It was a genuine honor to convey this precious information to the public. It was a genuine blessing to serve you and the Assyrian community through engagement with this work. Most of all, thank you for trusting me with your time, your work, and your attention. Additionally, thank you for all the silent sacrifice and emotional labor behind this project.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. As we end our dialogue today, I am signing off as Ari Barblad, your host in the Dialogues and International History podcast. Today it has been my honor to engage a dialogue with Abu Zaytoon and Abdul Messi or Abraham. We have been discussing their newly published book, It's an Arab Bali and the Assyrian National Movement. Complete translated and edited writings 1909 to 1969. Self-published by the authors through the Lulu Self-Publishing Platform. 2025. Abdul Masih Bar Abraham holds a master's in science and engineering. He serves as the chairman of the board of trustees of both the Moore Afro Foundation in Germany and the Joachim Bar Joachim Foundation. He is also the secretary of the Syria Salzburg Austria. Additionally, he is a board member of the Suryoye Theological Seminary in Salzburg. From 1979 to 1983, he was the first officially certified interpreter for the modern Assyrian Aramaic to Royal for the German government at the Central Emigration Office in Zerndorf, near Nuremberg, where he managed over 2,000 asylum appeal translations. He has held leadership roles in international companies in both Germany and the United States. Beyond his technical and engineering skills, he is an independent researcher who has authored numerous scholarly articles and book chapters focusing on Assyrian issues such as diaspora, migration, minority rights, genocide, language, culture, and identity. About Zaytun's passion for Assyrian music began at a young age, leading him to undertake a project aimed at compiling all-known Assyrian music records. This endeavor culminated in the recent release of the first Assyrian music discography book entitled Music of Pearls, Music Pearls of Betnarin, an Assyrian Syriac Discography, which was published in Germany in 2007. Since 1987, he has engaged in various activities such as festivals, lectures, and meetings with the Assyrian Betnarin Association in Weissbaden, where he took on multiple roles, including leading the youth group and the Assyrian and the University Graduates Group. He was elected chairman of this association for three terms, encompassing the years 2000 to 2001 and 2008 to 2012. Additionally, since 2008, he has held the position of chairman of the Moore Afram Foundation, a charity organization founded by Samir Aphram, which supports Assyrian projects globally. He has edited and published numerous articles in prominent Assyrian magazines across Europe, such as Shirogo, Shem Show and Funoyo. Thank you wholeheartedly.