CEO of Sony Music Publishing Nashville - Rusty Gaston

Rusty Gaston sees the music business from a rare vantage point.

In this conversation, we talk about what really makes songs connect, why the best careers are built on more than hype, and what happens when somebody who came from the independent world steps into one of the most powerful roles in Nashville publishing.

This is a real conversation about the heart behind the business. If you care about songwriting, country music, Nashville, publishing, artist careers, intellectual property, music business strategy, the creative process, and the part of the music business most people never get to see, this one is for you.

#RustyGaston #SonyMusicPublishing #SonyMusicPublishingNashville #Songwriting #MusicPublishing #Nashville #CountryMusic #MusicBusiness #HitSongs #songwriters 

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Filmed in Nashville, TN
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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

So how does a songwriter go into a songwriting session when they know that the goal is the number one?

SPEAKER_02 0:06

No, no, no, that's not the goal. The goal is. I just got a cold call from John Platt one day who was the chairman of Sony, and he just said, Hey man, like, what are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm at a concert at the moment in Charlotte. He said, Cool. He said, I need you to come to New York. Can you do that? Uh next week he said, I'll make all the arrangements. At this time, it's still today, I mean, John Platt is the biggest executive in my space of music in music publishing globally. So I went to New York a few days later and we had a conversation, and he said, I'm in a position to help you influence a thousand times more.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Is it more lonely at the top?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Yes. Why? Um, because vulnerably speaking, in this position I'm in now. As long as I've been in the music business, there has always been a contingency of people saying, the sky is falling, it's all coming apart, everything is gonna be awful. And every single year since then, my career has done nothing but.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Thanks for having me. Did you like my intro? That was fantastic. Sounds like ChatGPT. Perfect. Could have been.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Could have not been. Who knows? What you guys don't know is uh ChatGPT gave me a uh synopsis on Rusty and his personality. And you thought it was kind of accurate. Yes, it was pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. Um okay, Rusty. What do people misunderstand about you because of the role that you hold?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Wow. You know, I think if they don't know about my backstory of being an entrepreneur and an independent publisher for 24 years before I came to Sony, if they only know me from being at Sony and think I'm a lifelong corporate employee, that comes with a different thought process. I've never actually worked for a corporation in my life until coming to Sony. And it was not part of my plan. It was an example of God's plan is sometimes bigger than your plan. And, you know, on the negative side of a big corporate company is that it can be not a family. It can be a little heartless, it can be about the business and not about the community and not about the relationships and not about the heart. And what I try to do every day at Sony Music Publishing Nashville is for our entire team, curate an atmosphere that it's purely about service to songwriters and working hand in hand with the dreams of the songwriters. And the more of their dreams we can make reality, well, that's what makes our dreams come true.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

You said you mentioned um God there. And spirituality is a big part of your life.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Has there been a moment in this journey when you felt like because I experienced I experienced this myself, where I try to control the outcome and then I also try to submit and like just be like, all right, I'm gonna trust you, God. Was there a moment in your life where you had to do that?

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Oh, without a doubt. I mean, coming to Sony, every single bit of it was all God. It was none of it was orchestrated by me. Um I had my own company with two partners, Tim Nichols and Connie Harrington. We had a company called This Music for 14 years. It was successful beyond our dreams and really fantastic. But in 2019, there was a period to where I knew something needed to change, but I didn't know what it was. And there was this creek down in front of my house, and I would walk down to that creek every single day. And I would walk down there and I would pray. And at the moment, at the beginning of 2019, I would pray, like, God, I need you to take care of this. And I was getting nothing back. And for about four months, I was just praying that every day, trying to get an answer of, you know, I knew something needed to change, but like, tell me what that was. And then I really felt this prompting that God put on my heart just to pray, let his will be done. And let I just turned over my career fully to God and just said, Lord, I don't know what needs to change because on the surface, everything is wonderful. Our company is very successful, but I just know in my gut something, something needs to be different. And I just turn it completely over to the Lord. And I just started praying that every day from say April to June, just saying, Lord, you open the doors you want me to go through. You reveal to me what your plan is for this music and your plan for my career. And in June of 2019, I just got a cold call from John Platt one day, who was the chairman of Sony. And he just said, Hey man, like, what are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm at a concert at the moment in Charlotte. He said, Cool. He said, I need you to come to New York. Can you do that uh next week? He said, I'll make all the arrangements. And at this time, and still today, I mean, John Platt is the biggest executive in my space of music in in music publishing on globally. And so if the the person that is the biggest in the world of an industry you're interested in, if they want you to come meet with them, the answer is yes. And there's not even a question. So I just said, yeah, absolutely, I'll be there. And so I went to New York a few days later and we had a conversation, and he just said, Hey man, I've watched you build a culture that songwriters want to be a part of, and I've watched you build a destination that songwriters want to come to. And he said, God has given you a gift to influence songwriters, and he said, I'm in a position to help you influence a thousand times more songwriters than you could ever influence just doing what you're doing independently. And um it made all the sense in the world. And so I just feel like moving to Sony, it was completely orchestrated by God. It was an example of God's plan is way bigger than my plan.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

You go to New York, you sit down, you have this meeting.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

What was your initial reaction when he told you, like, hey, you want this opportunity?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

No, I started laughing. Um, because he told me, he said, Hey man, I've I've watched you create this culture and build this destination. He said, That's what we need in Nashville, and and I want you to come do this uh at our office in Nashville. And I literally just started laughing. And I just said, Man, like, what are we talking about? I said, I'm a kid from Van, Texas, and here we are in this office overlooking this park in New York City. Like, how did we even get here just because we love songs and love songwriters? Um, it just seemed too surreal.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Were you stoked?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, because it was a no-brainer because when I moved to Nashville in '96, let me go back to say like so that's 30 years ago this year, right? Yep. 30 years ago, moved to Nashville August 17th, 1996. And when I moved to town, there was a sign above the Sony office that said 27-year consecutive Billboard Country Publisher of the Year. And in Nashville at that time, like Sony Tree was where it was happening. That's where the hit songwriters were, that's where the hit artists were, that's where the hit records were being made. And really, from a legacy scale, all of the history of country music is there. Um, because even for the other big companies like Warner Chapel or Universal, they they weren't really so much in the country music scene back in the 70s and 80s. And so that rich history is all in that Sony catalog. So there was an element of look, I love country music. I love all kinds of music. But what I'm desperately passionate about is hit country commercial songs. And literally all of them that are the foundation of the entire genre are in this catalog, all the way back to the songs of Hank Williams Sr. And we actually own the three notebooks that he wrote all of his songs in. Uh, it's pretty wild.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

That is wild. And I have a couple questions coming out of that. Yeah. Uh, one is what was it like on the independent side as a publisher going up against the Sony?

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Um, man, I just never thought of it like that. As an independent company, it was just about um championing songwriters, helping songwriters find hope and belief every day to do their very best work. And if they were doing their very best work, well, I was going to make sure that I turned over every rock to get those songs heard. And, you know, looking back on it now, I realized how deep the cards were stacked against us for this music to become as successful as it was. But in the moment, I never considered the cards were against us. I just thought, oh, yeah, we can do this for every reason. This makes sense. But we did. We surrounded ourselves with great songwriters and great people, and we made all of our decisions based on people first and music second. And that created an atmosphere that just fueled uh support and fueled um belief in what they were doing, and that encouraged the writers to do more every day. And it and it also created an environment of like healthy competition. Because if Ben Haslip and Marv Green were in one room, but across the hall was Connie Harrington and Jesse Alexander, in each room, they knew, hey, the person across the hall, they're probably writing something fantastic. And that challenges them to look at what they're writing and say, okay, well, what we're doing, there's no way it's as good as what those people across the hall are doing. And it just elevated everybody's game to create the best songs possible. And we were so lucky to get them recorded and a lot of them go on to be hits.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yeah. There's a competitiveness, I believe, in songwriters. And it's inherent, I believe, because well, not maybe everybody, but folks I've talked to, you want to write the best song. Yeah. And if so and so across the hallway is writing, you're like, I want my song to be better than their song.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

So there's a healthy level of competition. And I'm curious, like, what was your competition on the independent side? And for listeners, can you kind of like open the door to what is independent versus not independent?

SPEAKER_02 12:57

As an independent publisher, you're really just in the trenches every day. It's a small place, it's a small family. There's only so many resources going around. So you're really developing things pretty much from scratch. And in our case, it was really a lot of core craftsman songwriters, meaning like they weren't the artist. We weren't getting our own internal cuts. Um, because really big companies, they are in really the artist business to where those artists have admin deals or they have really big money deals that small independent companies can't uh do financially. So it's really about creating a place that those writers are supported and that they know if they write the right song, it's gonna be competitive in the marketplace and we're gonna be able to get it where where it needs to be.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Is your competition then? I know so-and-so's cutting a record, and I need my song to be as good as the song from all these other places.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, when it's but it's gotta be better than the word as good as, if anybody is only doing as good as at any level, it is not gonna pan out for them. Our job as publishers, and the way I've always approached music publishing, is it's my job is to manage the career of a songwriter the same way an artist manager manages an artist's career. It's the publisher's job is to build a brand for the songwriter, tell the story of that songwriter, pitch their songs, create opportunities for them in the same way that an artist manager creates opportunities and builds a brand for an artist. People only know what you tell them. And lots of times when you're going into a meeting to pitch songs, it's only half about the song you're pitching right now at this moment. And then the other half is about the conversation of where you're setting up the expectations for the next pitch meeting because I may be telling them about a new song this writer just wrote, or I may be telling them about all the activity that a different songwriter is getting. And that's creating an expectation for the next time you get together with this person to pitch songs, they're going to say, Oh, hey, you were telling me about a writer, it's got all this activity. Where are their songs? Well, they've already created this atmosphere in their mind that they might actually like what you're about to play. So you're planting a seed. Yeah, without a doubt. You're planting a seed, and that is such a big part of the daily actions of a publisher.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

How much of the artists do you or sorry, how much of the well everyone's an artist, but how many of the signed writers are performers at Sony that you manage that are going after the what we call artist career? Yep. Um, because I call them performers because I would say it's maybe maybe half.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

I'd say it's probably half. It's probably half. Half of our roster are artists and half of the roster are just straight songwriters or songwriter producers.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

And how many at your peak songwriters did you have under you on the independent side?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Um somewhere between 12 and 14.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

And then how many now at your Sony?

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Not enough. Not enough. No, that's a lot. I mean it is a lot. It's considerably more. But when I went to Sony, um, I was coming there to really uh turn around a culture and turn around um uh just an atmosphere to because things had gotten a little bit off track at Sony. Um they have their they they because they have the richest history and catalog of country music, but at some point years ago, Sony globally had purchased a company called EMI. And at that time in Nashville, Sony was the largest publisher in town, and EMI was the second largest publisher in town. So when those two things combined, it created a really large company in Nashville. And I think it it subconsciously maybe created an atmosphere where it's almost like too big to fail. But at the time, a company like Warner Chapel that was smaller in the marketplace, they were very leaned forward into uh culture and leaned forward into kind of the boutique atmosphere of independent publishers of Nashville. And our company, This Music, was a joint venture with Warner Chapel at the time. Um, but that um atmosphere of just really focusing on service ended up putting Warner Chapel at a really fast pace, moving past Sony. Um, this was years and years ago. So when I came into Sony, it was about kind of helping get them back to a place of the right culture, but also getting them back to a real competitive place in the market.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Because now uh Warner owns about it's like 12 point something of the global market share of publishing. You guys are at the top at 26 point something percent, and then UMG's under you, but together the three majors make up about 60% of the global publishing market share, and then under that is 40%, which is the independence. But you guys are at the top, and one of the things that I'm interested in is IP, and you talked about the Hank Williams, yeah. Uh they were what he wrote his songs in the books. Notebooks. Yeah. So that's a form of IP, right? And you guys have been uh big players in the business of IP acquisition. And there's been a lot of outside capital that's come into Nashville as well, and private equity that's buying up intellectual property, uh like song catalogs and things like that. Can you expound upon that a little bit so people kind of understand what that is and why that play is happening right now, and why you guys specifically are kind of really going at that?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yeah, and I've uh part of it is because um from a pure financial standpoint, um, intellectual property copyrights are royalty business, and that royalty business can be monetized and purchased and treated as a non-correlated asset, meaning it's an asset that doesn't fluctuate necessarily with the stock market. So for a venture capital fund or for a family office who may be heavily invested in the stock market, they can also invest in something like copyrights that may not have as much volatility. And if you're buying the right copyrights that have decades and decades of earning history, you pretty much know for certain what those royalties are going to be for the next long period of time. And then if you have the ability to add new excitement to those copyrights, there's a potential you could even increase the value of those. And so that is why so many, it's a very safe investment. A lot of uh funds have gotten into the copyright investment space.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Is that newer?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Um it's definitely become more popular, like let's say over the past decade. But what is super important for a company, the scale and the size of Sony, is that Sony Music Publishing is the largest publishing royalty collector in the world. And so from an administration standpoint, where it's like, okay, if you buy these copyrights, what matters is you have to have somebody collecting these royalties all around the world. And that can be very simple if you have an administrator like Sony that has offices and collection abilities at multiple places around the globe. But it can also be very complicated for independent companies that may have to put together a conglomerate of sub-publishers all around the world or use independent administration around the world to collect your money.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

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SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yeah, it's exciting.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Um It's exciting because Big Yellow Dog was a 27-year music row industry icon boutique publisher. Um, by owned by Carlo Wallace and Carrie O'Neil. They built a tremendous catalog built on uh a family and a small group of creators just really go into the trenches together and created some remarkable copyrights. And it's our mission to uh keep that heart and soul alive of what Big Yellow Dog was and integrate it in inside the Sony team, which um a lot of those songwriters are now Sony songwriters, and we're finding different ways to work with them. Now, hopefully, what we're gonna do is keep that independent spirit that they're used to being involved in, keep that alive, but also be able to use our scale to open up new doors to create more opportunities for them that are beyond what they would have gotten just at a smaller company.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

How many um like at the on the independent side you would you would have, like you said, like maybe 14 riders? How many how many people on the employee side were managing riders? Like, was it five riders per person kind of a ratio?

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Not necessarily. I mean, we had um at the end of this music, there were three creative people, myself, Anna Wisband, and Maya Hansen. And together we managed those 14 people. Um, but all of us did something a little bit different. But at that, we all three worked on everybody.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Okay. Yeah. When when you get into where you're at in your position, how many on the ratio side writers are there to the manager position?

SPEAKER_02 25:06

It's different for every AR person, depending upon you know what from what I've been told, it's a lot more writers per AR person. It is more writers per AR person. But really, it's about a um, oh, what do they call it? And fine, it's about a portfolio. If you if you think of that roster as kind of a portfolio, um, there may be artists who are really successful who might only create in cycles of when they're uh making a new project. And so therefore, the time that is required for the AR person for them, they may not be an artist that writes pretty much every single day. They may write more in a cycle. So therefore, it requires, you know, there's there's times of year where it requires more attention from the AR person, but then some points of the year, that artist is really on tour and they're not creating. So it frees up more time for that AR person to work with, say, a writer-producer or just a straight-line songwriter. So it's really about kind of building out a roster to where you have these artists, you have straight songwriters, you have some writer-producers, and between all of them and their needs, you can put together a roster that one AR person can really manage really well. And then in our case, we have uh AR coordinators that work alongside our AR people, and they really help coordinate a lot of the daily details. Of once the AR person has maybe put together, like say book a co-write, that coordinator comes in and the coordinator follows behind them and nails down all the details of that particular right. What time is it? What's the date? What's the location? Is there a gate code? How do you get into the building? All these type of details and kind of take that off the AR person's plate. Because my goal is to try to create a place where the AR person can spend as much of their time doing AR as possible. And then we have these coordinators that can help them fill in the details.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

And so that way it makes it to where the AR person is spending as much time as possible thinking of ways to help the writer, thinking of new rights to help the writer, thinking of strategies to come up with for the writer, thinking of pitch ideas for the writer of actually doing AR. And if those daily kind of um details, maybe secretary-ish kind of details, are taken off their plate, it gives them more time to focus just on the AR. And that way they can manage rosters that are a little bit larger.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Okay. So when you got to Sony, this was uh 2019.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

2020.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

2020. Okay. And so this was like kind of COVID era.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Um, was there a part of you that felt imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Oh, yeah, completely. Yeah, because I said I had never thought of working at a corporate company. Um, and like I said, when I moved to town in '96, Sony was head and shoulders by far the biggest and best country music publisher ever. And so when the opportunity came to, you know, be able to go to that company and run that company, like it's an automatic yes. You know, it's like somebody, if you're interested in football and they say, hey, you're gonna get to coach the Dallas Cowboys, the answer is yes, because it's the most iconic team in the world. And from a Nashville publishing perspective, you know, that's what Sony Music Publishing is. And so it was a no-brainer. Um, but yeah, coming in there, there was imposter syndrome because I was going to be doing something a little bit different. Uh, it was challenging me in a new way, but it's really opened up a door for me to flourish even more of what I do naturally the best, which is, I believe, encourage songwriters to do their best work. Because I believe with all that I am that songs have the power to change the world. And you have a podcast here and you talk to creators all the time. And when you talk about their biggest hits, I promise you one thing that remains consistent about every one of those stories is they're going to tell you, oh, when we wrote that, it was just another Tuesday. Oh, it was just a Wednesday and I wasn't even supposed to be there that day. Or it was snowing outside and I didn't want to be there, but I showed up. Oh, it was it was hot outside and I wanted to be at the lake, but I showed up. The consistency of just of the biggest songs in the world, when you hear that story of creation, it's always a story of, man, it was just another day. And what I believe is writing hit songs is hard. It's crazy hard. And when you're writing commercial music, lots of times you win by perspiration, not inspiration. Um, you need to be present when the inspiration hits. And sometimes it's just showing up that day. So for me, if part of my role as a publisher is to encourage a songwriter just to believe that today could be the day, well, maybe that little bit of encouragement I give them in the morning is enough to get them out of the bed and actually show up to their appointment that day. If they show up to their appointment, half the work is done. And then if they bring in a great idea, if somebody else has a great idea, if God intervenes, then there's a chance where magic can really happen. And so, you know, what John Platt said to me from the get-go was like, look, God has given you a gift to influence songwriters. And over here, you can influence a thousand times more songwriters than you ever could doing what you're doing independently. And I get to see that every day because there are more people that I get the chance to encourage. And I may not be as deep in the trenches as I once was on the daily of pitching songs and talking with writers through their work tapes about how a song should be demoed. But I'm still very involved in AR on a daily basis. But a big part of that is just encouraging songwriters all across the board, whether it's somebody as successful as Ashley Gorley or successful as Lainey Wilson, or if it's a brand new writer or artist that just came to town and it's about making them believe that today could be the day. And if I can make them feel like today could be the day, that could be the day that they write a song that changes the world. And at this point in my career at Sony, it gives me more of an opportunity to encourage more songwriters than I ever could be an independent.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

So, how does a songwriter go into a songwriting session when they know that the goal is a number one? No, no, no. That's not the goal. The goal is for them to Because at the end of the day, I mean, Sony, big companies, the more number ones you can have, the better. There's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

There's a false hype around number ones. Here's the thing like at the ASCAP or BMI Awards each year, if there is a songwriter in the room that wrote four number ones, but there's another songwriter at the table next to them that wrote five number eights, the guy that wrote five number eight singles, he's the songwriter of the year, or she's the songwriter of the year. Not the one that necessarily wrote four number ones. It's the person that has the most award-winning songs in that particular year or that consumed the most. Um and so it's not necessarily about number ones, it's about getting songs out to the masses that that translate.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

But what happens to a writer? Because can can a writer stay with a company without getting a number one these days? Yes. If they're getting consistent cuts. Yes. It doesn't matter the track position of that cut.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

No. I mean it matters today in uh you know how the song consumes, uh, if it streams really well. Yeah, I mean, we have writers every single day that you may not know who they are. They don't technically have hits, but they recoup their publishing deals year after year after year just from activity.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

And then it's just a matter of like chasing the elusive number one.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah, just chasing elusive just hit um that really connects with the masses.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

If you were to give a piece of advice that was the best piece of advice given to you, because you went from, you know, small to just massive. There's just this duality of this vast valley that you went from, which is cool. You said that there was a level of imposter syndrome going in. You're like, man, this is crazy. It was probably your dream, maybe when you saw that sign and you drove by it and it was up there, you're like, Man, I can't imagine that I'm gonna be the one in the top of that building someday with my office up there. So now you're in this power player position. And it's great, but you talked about athletes and you talked about songwriters and how hard they work. And what we all see is we see Rusty Gaston the head of Sony versus or the athlete that is the Michael Jordan or the songwriter like Ashley Gorley.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

What we don't see is how many times they had to hit that ball or practice that free throw. What we don't see is how many they were writing 500 songs a year for X amount of years before they got their number one.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

And for you, there's gotta be I'm interested just in the story of you going from being 30 years in this town now, going from starting a company to being here. Like we see these peaks. It looks real sexy.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

It's like, man, Rusty Gaston, like that guy, you and it and it may feel I don't know what it's like to be you. I don't know if you're you realize the position you're in. I'm sure you do and you take it seriously, but also like the way people probably view you and think about you. And I'm even curious, like if if there's people around you that are afraid to tell you the truth because they know that you're kind of the top dog, you know?

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Um that's another question. But what were some of those free throws for you that got you into the position of being able to be the guy?

SPEAKER_02 36:41

You know, the the NSAI has a motto that says, it all begins with a song. And being an independent publisher, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, the only thing that matters is the song. And the only thing that's gonna make your company successful or even make it make money is the song. And now at this level at Sony, I see it from a much larger space, but realize more than ever the song is really all that matters. And we touched on a little while ago that if you're doing what is as good as, it's not gonna pan out. Like our job is to encourage songwriters to do their very best work to where they write a song that someone can't say no to. Because what you learn early in your career in the business, when you're going to play somebody a song, more times than not, they're not listening to it, trying to find reasons to like it. They're listening to try to find reasons to say no. And if they can find a reason to say no, well, then they will say no. Are we talking about the public? It could be the public, it could be the person we're pitching a song to, it could be the public, it could be the record label. It's like as a publisher, if I've got this group of songs and I'm taking them to somebody, the person I'm taking them to, the artist, the producer, the record label, the manager, when they're listening to those songs, they're trying to find reasons to say no of why this won't work. And they get to choose from all options that are all yeses, are songs that for on every level, it's a yes. And so it's our job to motivate those writers to do their very best work. And when they can do their best, best work, then they create songs that people can't say no to. And when people can't say no to them, those are the songs that end up becoming singles. Those are the songs that end up connecting with people. And as an independent publisher, you're so focused on just the absolute. We have to bring people songs that even if their decision making is based in greed, meaning they it's a producer that wants to cut a song he owns the publishing to, or it's an artist that just simply wants to record their own songs. There's countless examples of where those people have created have cut songs that are truly outside songs and they go on to become the biggest songs of that artist's career. Even when you think about the best singer songwriters out there, be it a Toby Keith, be it Alan Jackson, you know, it's like those guys are so well respected of being tremendous songwriters. Well, the biggest songs of their artist's career pretty much are outside songs because they recognize great, great songs and how to translate those. But at Sony, on such a larger scale, I see it every day that songs do all of the work. And I'm more convinced than ever that no record label can make a song happen, and no record label can keep a song from happening. And no manager can pull a lever that makes a song happen, and no manager can do something wrong that keeps a song from happening. And it's that way for a booking agent or a business manager or a producer. It's like the songs do all of the work. And that's what's so exciting about this.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

So, what was the muscle that was built like on those free throws? Because you can sit and listen to songs now. Yeah. And you have a trained ear. Yep. I can't imagine how many songs you've listened to. It has to be thousands and thousands, thousands.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Man, lots of times when it comes to pitching songs or finding the right songs for an artist, it's about having an understanding of what that artist has done in the past, what is the public's perception of them, and what are they capable of in the future. Just because you have a great song, that doesn't mean it's for every single artist. It's about being able to cast it in the right place to an artist that has growth potential. Maybe this is a song that helps that artist grow beyond their current fan base. Uh, maybe it's a song that helps them speak directly to their core fan base. Um, and it's about having an understanding of who you're playing the song for and why it works for that situation and that environment.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Okay. Now, outside songs versus artist cuts. Yep. Outside songs arguably are a little more rare these days just because they're not as financially lucrative. But they still happen. But they happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

And they are as financially lucrative. From an artist perspective, an artist makes their money on the road, play in shows, and selling merch.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

But not on the song.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Not necessarily on the song unless they co-wrote it. Uh, but they do from from the royalties it gets from sales or streaming.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

But is your goal with like Ella Langley, let's say uh she wrote, she's on the songs that are her big number ones. Yeah. Uh weren't for the win, she was in Texas.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yep. And so she has a remarkable vision of what she is wanting to create and what she wants to um uh bring to life. And right now she is in an absolute flow state of magic that is happening to her and around her, and it's her songs that are making all of that happen. And this is a vision that she has put together and been working on for years. This was not an overnight thing.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Yeah, but can we talk about that? The working for years part. Yeah, because that's what we don't see. Yep. Uh people are haters. It's easy to be a hate, like it's easier for people to see someone and all of a sudden they're the new artist, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Well, most of the time, like they say this is a 10-year town. In most cases, by the time you know of somebody's name, they've probably been doing this 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

And you've said as well that by the time you hear a song go number one, it's probably four years old.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yep. For the majority of the songs on the country airplay chart, meaning songs that get played on country radio and it's tracked on either the media base or the billboard airplay country chart. I believe about 75% of those songs are about four years old. That's not old. That's just the time it takes for those songs to ripen and find their way. Because lots of times there's songs that take, you know, if you look at the chart today, there's a dozen songs that have been on the chart a year, or maybe there's two dozen songs where it will be, they'll be on the chart a year by the time they end up peaking. And If you're only able to get out one song each year on the radio, um, sometimes those songs have been around. You know, that song may have been cut two or three years prior, and then it takes a year to make its way up the radio. Then it's another year before the songwriters and the publishers actually make money on that song. So it's not uncommon that songs on the radio are four years old.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Or just for sitting. I remember talking to Topher Brown about night shift.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

And they were like, they got the call and they're like, this John Party guy is like wants to cut this tune. And they all were like, Well, we'll take a chance on it.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

And it was an outside cut, and and it worked out great for everybody. So it's cool to hear those stories that happen, but like Ella's career, she's been writing for a long time. My friend Joy Beth Taylor's with you. Yep. And um, when I first moved to Nashville seven years ago, she was one of the first people I was introduced to by my friend JC that was at Big Yellow Dog at the time. He connected us because our writing styles were kind of similar, and I'm big into like that LA Laurel Canyon thing. That's why I like Ella. Like the the two number ones she has to me are very like Fleetwood Mac esque. That's my personal opinion. Everyone kind of says something different, but it just reminds me of that. Like she almost has a uh Stevie Nicks Linda Ron stat vibe to her. Yep, for sure. There's something cool about it, and I it's hip and it's just so cow 70s vibes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Um she is definitely an extra special creator that has developed this vision of what she is, and she, like I said, she is currently in an absolute flow state of creating and bringing this together, and it has been a vision of hers. She put all this together. Um, she is the one responsible and that she's delivering because the songs are immaculate. Did you sign her? A girl named Maya Hansen, who worked with us at this music originally. She is the one that signed Ella to her publishing deal at Sony. Yes, but we were all at Sony then. Yeah, yeah. Um back in the pandemic of let's just say 20, you know, when the world shut down, shows shut down except this one bar in Nashville called Live Oak. And it basically continued to operate as if there was no COVID and nothing was going on, and just hundreds of people would be jam-packed into this club. And that's where we first met a songwriter. And I like to say, like, people ask all the time, like, how do you find songwriters? Throughout my entire career, 99% of the people I've signed, you you meet songwriters through other songwriters. And we met a songwriter at Live Oak. He turned us on to Joy Beth and Trey Lewis and Ella Langley and a group of writers that all these guys were great friends and they were working together. And what's amazing is that individually, this group of friends, they would tell us, they were like, oh, hey, Ella, like she's the biggest star, like of our friend group. And then they would say, Hey, like Joy Beth, oh, she's she's definitely the best songwriter out of all of us. And it's remarkable of how you know, like attracts like, and great songwriters recognize other great songwriters. And wherever you find one good songwriter, you're gonna find three good songwriters because their two best friends are gonna be equally as good songwriters. And it was special just to see them coming up together and still doing it today together.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

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SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah, no, it doesn't quite happen that way. But for us, when we sign somebody from scratch, normally it's a thought process of okay, it's gonna be three or four years before we know what we have here. Before it's gonna because when just a straight songwriter signs their very first publishing deal to in Nashville writing country songs is what we're talking about right now. Someone come into Nashville, they want to write hit songs on the radio, they sign with an independent publisher, they sign with a major publisher. The first year of that publishing deal is purely mental because they were writing songs as a quote amateur, and then all of a sudden they sign a publishing deal and now they're professional. And the very next day they go back to writing songs as a professional, but it looks exactly like it did when they were an amateur three days before. And that is a mind game for them to realize you have to keep doing what you're doing. The first year, as I say, in my opinion, it's purely mental because it's about they need to figure out how to continue to write songs. Um, they need to figure out how to write too many songs, they need to figure out how to write not enough songs, they need to deal with maybe having some uh writer's block and how to overcome that. They're going to learn the process of really recording songs and how they're getting those demos down. That's what the process of year one is. And it's also about writing with a whole bunch of people to try to find a core group that you really kind of mesh with. And then in year two, you've pretty much figured out a process of how to record songs that you're really happy with. You've you've more narrowed down a list of kind of creators that you have fallen in sync with, and you're starting to find your peers. And then in year two, you're probably getting some songs on hold. You're probably starting to make some relationships with new, newer artists who you believe in what they're doing. Then about year three, you're probably starting to get a song recorded. Not a bunch, but you're starting to get a song or two recorded and you're solidifying your relationships a little bit more. And then by that year four, you ought to really start having some songs being released, have some activity happening. Um, you know, and that's exactly like kind of where, like you mentioned, Joy Beth or Ella and those friend groups were, you know, um, with Joy Beth, man, Joy Beth, she has the potential to be one of the most magnificent songwriters this town has ever seen. I will say, in my 30 years of being a publisher, I've never seen a songwriter write as many songs as Joy Beth. Now, there's going to be some people that are going to say, well, she writes too much or she shouldn't do that. But for where she was over the last handful of years, I believe she should write that many songs to figure out who she is and what her voice is in the room and how she best contributes. And now she's really starting to see the fruits of these songs getting cut. She's having her first hits. She's made relationships with, you know, of course, her best friend has become a superstar, but now she's making other artist relationships through that friendship. And other people are starting to hear her songs and say, hey, hold on. We want to write with that girl. And it's opening up so many doors.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

That's got to be cool to see from your position, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Oh, it's amazing. And for her, she writes for a company that is a partner of ours called Verse 2 Music Publishing. It's a company owned by Kent Earls and a superstar named Kane Brown. But Kent Earls is one of the best publishers ever in the history of Nashville. And he's really in the trenches of the daily with Joy Beth, putting her in the right situations, uh, opening up doors for her, making introductions for her, but she's doing the work of showing up every day and writing songs and writing great songs and making good relationships and most importantly, keeping those relationships alive.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Yeah. I uh I'm curious about your relationship with Kent. Um did you meet him a long time ago? Has he been someone that has been a mentor to you?

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Um, I mean, we were friends. So I met him first. He was a song plugger at a company called API. I think he went to MCA from there. We were acquaintances, we didn't know each other all that well. But one of my closest friends, um, he ended up marrying. And so we got to know each other a lot better uh once he and Martha got married. And um now we get to work together every day, and he's an incredible publisher with a fantastic track record, and he has helped so many songwriters move from zero songs and just starting from scratch to becoming songwriter of the year. Did you have mentors along the way? Uh yeah, I did for sure.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Um how important is mentorship to you?

SPEAKER_02 55:37

It's very important. It's about just having other people that you look up to that can just help keep you on track if you have questions. And like sometimes those people may be publishers, people like um uh Gary Overton or Jody Williams or Pat Higdon, they've been amazing publishing mentors of mine, but also people like Scott Hendricks, um, who's a record producer and a label executive, but he's a a friend and a mentor of mine throughout the business. But also it's about the core group of friends that you're coming up with. For me, it was people like Ben Vaughn and Mike Molinar and Martha Irwin Earls and Kent Earls, and all of us in the trenches together chasing down the same dream. And like you mentioned earlier in our conversation about uh the industry being competitive. Like it is competitive, but at the same time, it's not competitive because we're all dreamers here chasing the same thing down. And there is more than enough success to go around that I can have more success beyond my wildest dreams, and you have more success beyond your wildest dreams. And that does not mean that either one of us are taking something away from the other. And so, you know, as much as I had other mentors that were older than me in the business, I consider my closest friends that I was in the trenches with, grinding it out on the daily, they were as much mentors as other people because we were all talking every single day to try to help each other open doors for each other. If we, if one of us made a connection, we were trying to make that connection to our best friends. So that would be a door that's open to them, so that we are all helping each other grow. And now, you know, Kent has a successful company, Martha manages one of the biggest superstars in the genre. Mike Molinar manages or runs one of the very best independent companies ever in the history of Nashville. And I can go on and on with a list of friends that are all doing that, but we're all living this dream together. And even though some of our positions may be competitive, we're all here still today trying to help each other as much as anything else.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Is it? That's a cliche question. But is it more lonely at the top? Yes. Why?

SPEAKER_02 58:17

Um, because vulnerably speaking, in this position I'm in now, um there are more people that want something, and there becomes fewer people that you can talk to about your daily frustrations. And I think that makes it even more difficult to lose one of my best friends, Ben Vaughn, because he and I worked for 29 years every day of our career, climbing together, trying to succeed together, even though we worked at separate companies. But he and I could talk about anything at his business or in my business, and we were always supportive to help one another. And the thing that becomes lonely at this point is if I have something that's bothering me, there's a much smaller group of people I can really confide in where there's not a fear that somebody else will use that information against you.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Against you. Yeah, yeah. Well, it makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

I think I think for the majority of the But I'm grateful for the friends that I have that I can have those discussions with.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

I think for the majority of people that are in positions like you, it it's like that. Yeah, it almost comes with the territory, with the job title in a sense. And it's interesting you say uh everybody, you know. I do see obviously people want something from you. Everybody you probably sit down in your office with that's a writer or whatever, yeah. They want you to sign. They want they want a piece of advice, they want something from you. And um and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

That's great. That's part of it. And I want to be in that place.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

Yeah, yeah. But it's so true that like how I think this is something I think about a lot is like how often do we give something to somebody instead of ask for something? Yeah. And I feel like the mentality of people I would like to see this in my own life, and I try and I work towards it, but like when I meet people, it's like instead of trying to extract what's like a value I can add.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Well, and that's very much a Nashville community thing, is that our community, I believe, helps each other first. It's not about we're not a the why they talk about Nashville being a community is because the artists, the songwriters, the executives, the managers, the agents, we all came up in this chasing our dreams together. And we're in a community together where we're trying to make win-win-win deals happen for everybody. A deal that it's a win for the songwriter, it's a win for the publisher, it's a win for the record label, it's a win for the booking agent, it's a win for the business manager, and everybody succeeds together. Where in other communities, it may be about take, take, take as much as I can for this temporary amount of time. Because what is also uniquely Nashville is the executives that are here work here for decades. The artists that are here have the opportunity to have touring and recording careers for decades. The songwriters that are here, they have the opportunity to write hits in multiple decades. And in other communities, the business may churn faster. And you don't find as many executives who have been doing it for 20, 30, 40 years. You don't find as many songwriters that have hits in three, four, five decades. You don't have as many artists who've been touring for two, three, four decades and still having tremendous active careers. And that is something that's uniquely Nashville. And I think our entire community should be remarkably proud of that and keep that going. You know, it's like that old Zig Ziggler saying of you can get everything you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want out of life. And that's what I tell our song, our staff every day. It's like, hey, if if we help our songwriters succeed, that is what's making our dreams succeed. Every time our songwriters having a hit, that's what's making my dreams come true and our team's dreams come true. And that's what's helping our team's careers excel, is by helping these songwriters and artists make their dreams come true. And it's just a cycle that feeds on itself in a good way.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

How old were you when you wrote uh read Think and Grow Rich?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Um, I'm gonna say maybe 15, 16, my dad had given me Think and Grow Rich and the Power of Positive Thinking. And they're both just game changers.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:13

What what book outside of the Bible changed your life the most in terms of giving you direction and Stoke?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Those two books, I mean, the power of positive thinking for sure, but there is a book that's maybe a decade or 15 years old, is written by Ryan Holliday, and it's called Perennial Seller. And I've given this to so many artists, creators, entrepreneurs. The book is about like the law of perennial, like if if if something has been successful for 20 years, the the perennial law is it will be successful for the next 20 years. And his book is a is specifically about marketing books, because at that point that's the that's where he was in the industry. But if you read it from the perspective of how to create works of art that last, whether it's creating songs that last, to me, when I read it first, I read it because I we had this music and I was reading it from the perspective of how do we build an independent publishing company that creates a legacy and how does it last beyond when we're no longer doing it. And we are still seeing that today by you know um new songs coming out still from that catalog, but also seeing those songwriters still work together and still thrive together and hearing people telling stories about that company. But that book, I mean, I gave it to some to an artist last week. And I just think reading it from an artist perspective or a songwriting perspective of how do I create an artist career that lasts, that book really stands out.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

I really like Ryan Holiday. Yeah, he's great. And he's big into the stoic the stoics. Yeah. I got the uh Marcus Aurelius Meditations book recently because he was like uh recommending it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

Right. And but I'm not as much into all the stoic stuff, but that perennial seller book and the the grouping of books that came after that. One of them is called oh oh gosh, it called like Ego is the enemy. There's a group of books around there, those are all absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Yeah, my the one I'm reading right now is called Stillness is Key.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

Oh, yeah, that's really good too.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Dude, it's so good. Yeah. So here's my question. I'm glad because I I knew you were a reader, and I just assumed that you were, because I can tell. So um, and stillness in the is the key. It talks about I think it was first Napoleon, and then he talks about uh J.F. I think you talked about Eisenhower, but he was talking about basically how there's a lot of things that are really busy, and if you don't check your mail for 30 days, the majority of the problems will have fixed themselves. I don't know if you remember the part of that book. I might be butchering it, but um have you taken that and applied it? Because in your position, there's no way that you could field it's just like if we took someone in a presidential position and put that in the music business on a different level.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

Uh you're just gonna have stuff coming your way left and right. So you have to have buffers.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

And so have you established and how did you establish buffers for yourself? Kind of like those examples that we're in, stillness is key.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

I still, I mean, I'm still working on it every day. Um I want to encourage people beyond just the staff I work with and and the songwriters I work with. So um, you know, when random people reach out to me, I probably too oftentimes say yes, and that does mess up my calendar. Um but you know, earlier this year, at the beginning of the year, I literally just deleted everything in my inbox and um just said, okay, I'm starting the year fresh, and that if somebody needs me, if there's something I had missed of significance before the holiday, they're gonna reach back out to me. But I do think that is right where most of the little things take care of themselves. And it's really about focusing on the big decisions and ideas that we can bring to life that are gonna impact the the biggest amount of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:59

So where does so here's the question. Um I'll preface this. So I think it was UMG had a court case against some music generating platform and they settled, and now they're doing a licensing deal with that platform from their catalog to train the AI.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

To my knowledge, Sony has not done that. I don't uh know if you guys are doing that or not. Yeah. But what is your opinion on artificial intelligence generating music and a threat that I think kind of sweeps across the creative community in terms of songwriting?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:42

Man, here's my take on it is that when I came here in '96, there was a group of people saying the sky was falling for whatever reason was going on right then. Y2K, man. Yep, Y2K. For as long as I've been in the music business, there has always been a contingency of people saying the sky is falling, it's all coming apart, everything is going to be awful. And every single year since then, my career has done nothing but be able to increase. The business has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger than it ever has before. With every um major uh technological change, even though there are moments of maybe it being scary, um, they have always figured out a way to make it an added benefit, not something that takes away. And they've always found a way to embrace it and help it grow. And so my feeling is like with AI, it's the same thing of, hey, are there some scary moments? Yes. Are there great tools inside of it? Yes. Are there tons of things that need to be figured out? Yes. But the one thing I'm certain of is since 96, every single day somebody's saying the sky is falling and there's not going to be a music business. And here today in 2026, the business is bigger than it's ever been, and we're continuing to head in that direction. There are more people that need to hear stories that they connect with that impact their life and help them feel seen and help them feel a part of something. People need that more than ever. So that means there's more need for music, songwriters, artists, creators than there ever has been before. And there's more opportunities for them than ever in the history of the world. That's my take on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

I like the positive outlook because I think you're right, man. The and the laws always kind of follow the technology too. All that stuff will be. I remember texting and driving, and it wasn't illegal.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

Yeah. All that stuff will take care of itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:05

Yeah, it will. Um, it definitely will. But that's a good way to look at it. So bigger, more people doing it. And you've talked about specifically commercial hit songs. That's what you were interested in. That's what got you stoked. Yeah. And I'm kind of like curious because I'll go back and I'll listen to records and we see a resurgence. Last 19 years, vinyl sales has increased every year. Last year it was $1.04 billion. Yep. And we even see it in people going to like non-smartphones. They're just like looking for something tangible to feel. And I'm sure you see it in the music business. I'm sure you see it in sales with merchandise on artists, on tours, and things like that. Now there's an attention span decrease culturally due to the scrolling platforms and the dopaminergic effect of seeing instant gratification. Yep. So we have short attention spans. Now there's people that are actually starting to bet money on what songs are going to be number one. What's it, you know, make it to radio, what will who will be on the magazine cover that's an artist? Just like weird times. The question is, from my perspective, like one of the older songs, you know, that I may have had to listen to 10 times and then I fell in love with it. Now I feel like I have to fall in love with it on the first try, first listen, because my attention span has been trained by these algorithms.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:48

When I listen to the Hot Country playlist, I'll be like, intro, skip, intro, skip. Like if it doesn't get me, I'm like, your intro's too fast. Get to the verse. I want to start hearing the same. Like, so how has that affected songwriting? And from when you came here pursuing the commercial hit song to still pursuing the commercial hit song, is it affecting in the way writers write?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Um, it probably is, but it all boils down to what the emotion of that song is about because there's only so many, I think they say there's seven core human emotions. And as I say, Snoop Dogg and George Strait sing about the exact same thing, they just use a different language to communicate about the very same emotions. And, you know, today, even if an attention span is shorter, you just have to get to the core of that emotion sooner. And will we always have these shorter attention spans? I don't know the answer to that. But um right now, the songs that cut through are still the songs that hit those real life human emotions that people that look different and live differently and act differently, they all relate the same way to that particular song. And it was that way 30 years ago, and it was that way 60 years ago, and it's gonna be that way 30 years from now, and it's gonna be that way 60 years from now.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:35

Is it hard for you to turn work off when you go home?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Yeah, because what I I love what I do. And so like I don't like there are work elements at this level of scale. And so there are some times to where I do need to turn it off, but that's mainly about a frustration of something that honestly probably doesn't even matter. But for the fun part of what this is, like it was fun 30 years ago, it's still fun now, and it's not work. Like, I would do exactly what I do today for free. Just don't tell anybody that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:20

No one will. Um yeah, dude, you're you're very energetic, man. Where does your energy come from? Have you always just been an energetic dude that's just like, let's go?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

I think so, but I do think like my if I get really excited about a song, it's because it really touched me. And I really believe if it touched me the way it did, that means it is going to react with a certain group of other people. And that gets me fired up to know that what that songwriter has created really has what it takes to translate to thousands and thousands and hopefully millions and millions of people. Um, yeah, that gets me excited every single day because, you know, what's also awesome about this job, and that it has been this way from the get-go, is that one song can change everything. Like literally three minutes in your day can change the entire day. You can be having a bad day, a horrible day, a frustrated day, and a songwriter can send me a new song and it can change everything. Your complete state alters in a matter of minutes.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Is is the aim now for songs to be around three minutes? I don't know. Not 330. Yeah, I don't have any idea. There's no answer to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:42

No, they need to be catchy, and I want to listen to them over and over. They can be one minute, they can be ten minutes.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:49

Okay. Yeah. So there's no real answer to it. No. But I just see in commercial music, you know, it's like verse, chorus, verse two, chorus, bridge, chorus, done.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:59

It just seems to be the formula of most songs that are commercially viable or go to go to the number one spot.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:07

I wanted to ask you if your life was a book, what the title would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:17

It would be at this moment, I would say it would be love plus fun equals success, which is what I fully try to live my life by. Because I believe that if you surround yourself with people you love, if you do what you love, and if you add in a lot of fun, the only possible outcome is success. And that works in every area of your life, in your personal life, in your career, in your friendships, in your marriage, in your parenting. Um, I just believe that wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:56

As someone that is a man of faith, and that's a huge part of who you are, me too, by the way. I'm curious if there's ever an inner conflict with your faith and with the content that comes out of certain songs where you almost have to like be a different person. You're like, this is gonna impact culture. And I have my finger on the trigger of being able to say yes or no, and this doesn't necessarily align with my belief system. Is there a is there a conflict there? Because uh for me there would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

I mean, it's like it's kind of yes or no, but it's not the answer, is not purely for commerce. I'm able to uh you know look the other way of whatever the the content is.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

It comes back down to it's like because in country music it's more wholesome in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:02

Yeah, it is. So it's not like you're in the country music is built on three pillars, and those pillars are family and they are faith, and they are the love of our country. Everything that country music is is about those three things. If you don't have one of those, it's it's not gonna stand up in country music. Say those again? They are family and they are faith and they are the love of our country. And for the most part, the vast majority of country music falls into they stand firm on those three things. But for me, being able to influence songwriters outside of the country music genre or outside of the Christian genre, um, it goes back down to what are those core emotions that we all connect on. It's like, yeah, like it's bothers me today of how many songs we get with curse words in them. Look, I absolutely cuss way more than I'm supposed to. But that's my cross to bear, my sin that I'm dealing with. Um, but like from a commercial standpoint of getting songs heard by the masses, that means young people need to hear them, middle-aged people need to hear them, older people need to hear them, and lots of times that means they don't need to have cuss words in them. But there's there's tons of hits that have curse words all in them. So um, you know, whatever gets the point across in the right way, um it's what needs to happen. But I do think like influencing people uh in a hopeful way, maybe they create more songs that have a hopeful message. And hopeful message doesn't mean Christianity or it has to be uh just a delusion of hope. It just means something that encourages people.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:54

What do you have like a daily habit, like a time you like to read the Bible or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:01

Um, when I wake up in the morning before I get out of bed, I have like a Bible app on my phone and I read whatever scripture of the day is. I'm trying at the moment, a friend of mine gave me a gratitude journal. I'm trying my best to get in the habit of that because it has been remarkable when I find myself being in the in the zone of it. And basically, this journal like has a little scripture reading, and then you write down each day like three things you're grateful for. It's been fantastic. But then normally in the morning, like if I walk the dog or if I walk with a friend, or if I work out, I'll listen to a podcast of it, like normally a faith-based podcast. And then if that ends and I'm still doing whatever I need to do, I'll listen to other podcasts outside of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:55

That's cool, man, that that you are that intentional.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:59

I think the journal So I need a daily reminder. We all do. I just need the daily reminder to refocus myself. And then I'll start out most days texting in the morning before I get out of bed, all of our staff, something that hopefully encourages them. But really, I'm sending them that encouragement because I'm just talking to myself. And then on multiple days, I'll send out text to as many songwriters as I can. And the same kind of thing. I'm trying to encourage them to have hope for the day, but really I'm just talking to myself and I'm sending it over and over to dozens of writers.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:40

That's cool. Is there like a thread on your phone where you can just send it to the stuff?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

There's not because, and maybe you can help me. I have not found a way that I can individually send these messages in a group, uh, then everybody's grouped together. Like I have to send them out individually, one-on-one. Like normally, like I spend about 30 minutes every morning sending out text between our team and between songwriters.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:11

Just a text service, like a text blast service.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:15

Yeah, but I don't want, I don't want it to like it needs to just be the text between me and them. I don't want it to come from another number, and I don't want it to be lumped in with other people. Just want it to be in our text chain. I'm sure there's a technology. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:29

I think you're screwed. I don't know, but there's something special about it coming from.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

Yeah, but they get it from me.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Uh, where did you learn your leadership principles? Was it observing other people?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:43

I think that comes from I had a stepfather that was an entrepreneur, and uh I've been incredibly blessed because I still have an amazing father, and I had an incredible stepfather since passed away. But my stepfather was an entrepreneur, and you know, I got to see him build businesses of just things he liked and how to make a living at it. And that's basically how I chased down my whole career was realizing, well man, I just love songs. Well, there has to be a business that somebody does that and chase that down. But I watched firsthand working in either a video rental store or an arcade or a laundromat or a restaurant that he owned and operated. Like we were able to buy groceries if we had a good day at whatever business he had. And then if you don't have a good day at the restaurant, well, then we weren't able to necessarily buy groceries. And so I learned the importance of you know, hard work and like, hey, you have to make it happen in order to thrive. And so that's just always been a thing for me. The hustle.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:58

Yeah. What's the average day like for you? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:03

Um, currently, right now, I have too many things on my schedule, and I need to I need to become better at that. But my average day is, you know, getting up, trying to get rooted in scripture, listening to songs, encouraging our team, encouraging our songwriters, and then coming in and hitting the ground running of uh whether we're listening to new songs, stepping into meetings about how we are moving the ball forward, of retaining writers, signing new writers, uh, finding ways that we can utilize the scale of our company to create more opportunities for writers, and all those things go into every single day.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:47

Where do you see podcasts fitting in the future of IP?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

I think they're fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

Legacy media is is just dwindling as we've seen. Yep. And it's moved into people creating their own shows.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:02

Yeah. I think it's where people can go and find even more unique niche things that they're interested in and get a deep dive on learning about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:13

Do you think the music industry is a I'm just curious, do you think the music industry in a decade is going to be signing podcasts? I I don't have any idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:23

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Um, there's licensing things that's got to be figured out, but there's uh but they could, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:31

I'm sure as a businessman, you do have swats on your business in some way, shape, or form. And there's threats. Yeah. And you have to be aware of those threats and get ahead of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:41

Yeah. What's not changing is the desperate need for amazing songs that speak to the masses, that make people feel seen and heard, and make them feel a part of something. Songs that make them feel like, how did this person know that is my story? And that has been exactly the same a hundred years ago, and it will be a hundred years from now. And the biggest threat to songwriters is mentally us keeping them in a place that they can do it, that they have what it takes, that today could be the day that showing up matters, that their perspective is unique and important and is needed.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:26

How much risk exposure are you willing to take versus other labels?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:31

I I think it's the same. I I think it's it's from a business standpoint. I think it's basically the same as any other large company.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:39

Have you taken risks in your career outside of going to Sonya that were failures where you were like, man, I risked this and it flopped?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:51

Um, there's a few examples. There's some examples to where it goes back to that equation of love plus fun equals success. I really can't. Up with this because about the year 2001, I signed an artist who had a major label record deal, but he was getting cuts on other people, and he was mainly, it was obvious he was a tremendous songwriter. Um, but his artist career wasn't taking off the way he wanted it to. And I signed him to a publishing deal, and we put together some goals of hey, we want to get your songs recorded on artist A, B, C, D, the biggest artist of that time. And a few years later, man, we had gotten his songs cut on every single one of those artists. But unfortunately, none of them ended up being singles on any of those projects. And so several years down the road, we found ourselves at a financial point to where we were gonna have to unfortunately not work together anymore. But he actually said to me, he was like, Hey, I've loved every moment of this. This has been the very best publishing deal I've ever had. This has been the best creative relationship I've ever been in. And we did achieve every goal we set out to. But even though we didn't hit a couple of luck pieces to where big hits came out of it, we loved what we did every day. We had a ton of fun. And even though financially it didn't become a big success, the deal overall was a big success. And there's examples of that of, you know, a purely financial person would say, Oh, well, that deal was a failure. There's a big debt on the books. Well, to me, it wasn't a failure. We both had a great experience. There were fantastic songs created that ended up recorded by the biggest artist in country music that are on some of the most iconic albums in country music. Um, they just didn't end up being singles.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:54

But so they couldn't recoup.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:56

Correct. But we still had a relationship that was very successful.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:02

So, how long can you go with like, because that's a great example of my earlier question where I was like, you know, are is it you have to have number ones to kind of like eventually stay in the game unless you're getting cuts. And this is like a he was getting cuts, but didn't get the number one that recouped his draw.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:20

The majority of the deals we go into, they're set up as four-year publishing deals. It's a one-year firm up front, and there's three one-year options. If it's somebody we haven't worked with before, I'm planning on what we're trying to do is create a deal that financially buys us as much time as possible. Because as I said, 75% of the songs on the chart are four years old. Well, if this writer is performing at the top of their ability, playing Hall of Fame caliber ball here, it's going to be four years before we have significant activity. And so by that four, we need to have bought us as much time as possible to figure out do we have enough activity to keep going?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:08

The the ones that are successful cover the ones that are not successful.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:12

Yes. But you can still, like I said, today, you know, streaming has helped our business grow. It's fantastic. And we're seeing songwriters recoup their publishing deals every day just from having songs that are streaming that aren't on the radio.

unknown 1:31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:28

So I get a little confused on that because there's some people confusing, and there's tons of there's tons of nuance in the details. But the very, very short answer is that with every new technology, they have helped the music industry grow globally. And today, our number one um ability to get music out is streaming. And that has helped all genres grow globally. So now, if you're a country writer, if you're a Nashville songwriter, a country artist, through streaming, your ability has the mu has your music has the ability to be discovered and streamed all around the globe to more people than ever before. What that leads to is there are more opportunities for cuts than songwriters ever before. Uh, there are more RIAA certifications of gold and platinum singles than ever before. Um the royalty rates are are great. Um and yes, there's tons of nuances in it that needs to be addressed, that needs to songwriters need to be paid uh fairly all around the globe. And that's a that's for a totally different conversation than this. But in the big scale, is that hey, songwriters streaming has helped the music business grow globally, and that creates more opportunities for cuts for songwriters, it creates more opportunities for wins for songwriters.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:06

I interviewed Joe Bonamasa and he said if you think about it, you can record a song and you don't have to pay for a physical disc. Yep. You don't have to pay for a vinyl or a CD to get pressed or nothing. You can just upload it. That saves an extreme amount of money. And I don't know how that works on the mechanical royalty side, but I know that people are like, you can't, you know, I don't know. It seems like Nashville's like the number one. You have to have a number one. That's what I've heard kind of across the board.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:42

Let's change that topic again. Let's change, let's talk about it. How do we ASCAP and BMI and CSAC award-winning songs? Yeah, let's go there. That's what we need to talk about. Yeah, because that's what I'm interested in. Like, because a lot of times songwriters get uh unhealthily stuck on number ones. But again, it's a bad place to be. But you know, if you're getting ASCAP and BMI and CSAC awards, that means you're writing the most performed and most consumed songs of the year. And that doesn't mean number one. That doesn't mean number one. Okay, but those are incredibly successful and lucrative songs. I hope we get to a place where people are walking around instead of saying this guy wrote 20 number ones, they're saying, no, this guy has 42 BMI award-winning songs. That is remarkable.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:37

How does that work? Just real quick for explaining that. Like you have the PROs. Do they decide, like, man, this was just such a great song?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

It was mainly for them each year in each genre. Um, each one of them are different. So this is just the broad strokes, but really they each year award, say, the 50 most consumed songs of the prior year. And that could be from streaming, from radio airplay, from sales. Which songs touch the most people? And what were the 50 songs in that genre that touched the most people? That's what we're trying to achieve every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:20

I like that. Changing the dialogue from the number one. Yes. Because it's kind of sickening, man. Because it's like, what about the number two? Yeah. Are you just a failure? It sucks to be you.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:30

Well, sometimes, you know, from a financial standpoint, a number two song can make a lot more money than a number one song.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:36

Because it's there longer, it's on the chart.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:38

There's lots of nuances that go into it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:40

But that's cool, man. I like that. The the top 50 should all be, I mean, that's an accomplishment in and of itself to have something on the radio.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:50

So have something go to radio. I dig them. And if everything went away, like your entire like Rusty Gaston, the CEO of Sony Music Publishing, if all the title and all that went away, but there was one piece of advice that was left and you were gone, and your piece of advice carries on through generations and generations. What is that piece of advice?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:22

It's that encourage people to be kind to one another, to love one another, because if you want to be successful in whatever the business is you're in, being kind and being friendly and coming from a position of love, that is what will help you succeed in whatever you do.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:47

Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:48

Hey, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:50

It's been great. For being on the podcast and sharing, giving us a little bit of a peek behind the curtain. You got it. And if you liked it, subscribe, share. And uh, who do we want to listen to right now, Rusty? Who should we be streaming?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:06

Right now, stream. Ella Langley is doing fantastic. There's really some artists on the cum. Gavin Adcock, Hudson Westbrook. There's some brand new people like Aniston Pate doing incredibly exciting music. Music is just I'm just gonna get in trouble by naming people, but there's so many great things coming out to pay attention to.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:33

Um all right, guys. Well, be kind. Love somebody, love everybody, and we'll see you for the next episode.