Inside the Music Business Playbook - Kent Earls

Kent Earls is one of the music executives behind the scenes helping shape the songs, songwriters, artists, and careers people are talking about in Nashville.

In this episode of The Stephan Hogan Podcast, Kent Earls sits down with Stephan to talk about the business behind the hits, from his time as Executive Vice President and General Manager of Universal Music Publishing Group Nashville to becoming partner at Verse 2 Music, the publishing company built with Kane Brown in partnership with Sony Music Publishing.

We talk about Ella Langley, Joybeth Taylor, Verse 2 Music, Kane Brown, Sony Music Publishing Nashville, Nashville music publishing, songwriter development, artist development, creative partnerships, and how leverage is really built in the music business.

But this conversation is bigger than country music.

Kent shares what artists, songwriters, creatives, entrepreneurs, executives, and decision makers need to understand about trusting your gut, owning your value, choosing the right partners, building relationships, and creating long-term leverage before the deal ever happens.

This is an inside look at how high-level music executives think, how publishing companies bet on talent, and how careers are built behind the scenes in Nashville.

Topics covered: Kent Earls, Ella Langley, Joybeth Taylor, Verse 2 Music, Kane Brown, Sony Music Publishing, Universal Music Publishing Group Nashville, Nashville music business, music publishing, songwriter development, artist development, music executive, country music, creative entrepreneurship, business leverage, strategic partnerships, trusting your gut, and building value.

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Filmed in Nashville, TN
Produced: Stephan Hogan
Mavericks Media Co. Production

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Don't take this the wrong way. Record labels, major record labels, all record labels are very good at helping. But it feels like more of the burden is on the artists than ever before.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

And and I and I think it's because no one knows what to do. The labels don't know what to do. No one knows what to do. It feels like every project is released the exact same way. And now it's all, oh, you gotta go post more. It feels like that's what's driving a lot of the, you know, the mental, not issues, but I'm sure burden for artists is it all feels like it's on them now.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

The record deal, the the thing that you think your whole life you dream of, you get it. And then it's like all of a sudden it's the starting point. Yes. That's ex that's exactly right. It's like you thought you climbed the mountain. It's like, oh, just kidding. This is just like This is phase one. This is phase one.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

This is that first place where you put your tent up and you spend the night because you go, oh my word.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, it's Everest. Yeah, that's right. It's Base Camp and you're getting used to the elevation.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

And I wish, and I understand why, but I wish artists would wait more nowadays to build their careers bigger. And have more leverage. And I always say that an average country number one song generates about a million dollars for the writers and publishers total.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Okay. So when you split that up between four or five writers and then their percentage and the recoupment and where they're at and their I don't know what you call options. That gets real confusing real fast. Oh, it does. But people are going home with maybe like a hundred grand. Yeah. I mean a hundred, hundred and twenty-five. So that would be a rough number for a number one.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Like a four or five-way number one, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's uh it's it's that's what I don't think people realize how hard it is to make it in the music business.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, and that can be quite discouraging. It is because you've seen it where it was like it's a completely different time.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Oh, it was you would if you had a top ten, let's say you co-wrote a song that was a top ten hit in the 90s, early 2000s, that song would be Platinum Plus. It it it and it could be on, you know, Johnny whomever, and it would be a it would be a platinum song. I mean, that's how many CDs were being sold. It was I mean, it it was raining money back then.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, and the cost of a single uh like it's like what 99 cents a buck twenty nine on Apple Music if you want to buy something. Yeah, that's like basically what people were paying back then in the 90s. Yeah, that's that doesn't account for inflation. That's right. I've heard from so many people like if you want to be a songwriter, you just have to write number ones, no pressure, if you want to like make it as a songwriter. That's impossible. And it's impossible. So you have to get cuts, which can keep you afloat. Yeah. But I even had a conversation with someone where they were like, this artist or this writer got all these cuts with it was our goal, and then they didn't recoup still, and so they had to be let go after their three years or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

And that and that happens more than more than not, unfortunately. I think uh the what you can hope for is let me kind of walk through what you can hope for with your sign.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Can you shine some light on my dark soul? My discouraged part right now. Well, look, because okay, because sidelining, I just had a cut with Vince Gill. Great. Yeah, it was exciting, and it came out on the last EP, uh, 50 years from home, and it was track two, right after the one you did with Laney Wilson, and I owned my publishing and my writer's share. And I was like, this is so awesome, it's a legacy cut, but at the same time, there was the fiscal side which was discouraging because I was like, That's why you have to I call those resume builders.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

So I I I meet you early on. You've never had a publishing deal. Um fired up about all the songs you've written in your life up to that point. And uh I think you know what Stefan can he could really be a hit songwriter in three or four years. So I sign you let's say to 35,000, 40,000 um first year. My goal, I whenever I sign anybody, I'm I'm signing for at least two years. That's not what the contract says, but in the back of my mind, there's no way we're gonna get what we need to get done done in one year. So I'm already thinking this is a two-year project. We got to get you in the right rooms. You and I have to get on the same page. You have to, I have to understand what you're trying to say, you have to understand what I'm trying to say. I've said it a million times, the most nervous I'm ever in the music business is when more than one of my writers is in my office at the same time. Everybody's like, why? And I go, because I talk to each of them differently. We have a different language than the same. And it's and it's because of how I am perceiving what you want to get from me to get you to the next spot. So um if I have two of my writers and it's like, uh, I can't say what I really want to say because that person's never heard me say that, or you know, it's just a it's something and it's probably just in my head, but that's the way, that's the way I am. So you're writing songs um hopefully four days, if not five days a week. You know, I'm putting you in all these rooms. We're hopefully finding you the connections you need to get songs recorded. Best case scenario, you have two or three songs recorded quickly. Well, then, you know, it's another four or five months before that album or those songs ever come out. And then it's another year after that before you even collect any money. So that's why it's always you're you're at two years before you really are going to sit down and say, what have we got, what have we gotten done in two years? Well, hopefully we have moved your train down the track far enough that your songs are starting to be considered as radio singles. Because that's right now, outside of Morgan Wallen and Luke Combs and Kane Brown and maybe the top five artists that can really have a huge streaming hit, you're uh your your best bet is to have a radio single that goes to number one. Um, but it's so hard to get those. I mean, they're not it's it's we don't have control over it. That's the thing that's hard to realize. What we have control over is what you're doing, and are we putting you in the right situation to to increase those odds of that happening? But the song still has to get written, it still has to be recorded, still has to move enough people to put all the push and money behind it for it to become a radio single. And then it has to be a hit. You know, we've had at verse two I can't I should have looked before it came. I'm gonna say 20 singles so far, 20 country radio singles, and seven of them have been number ones, and the other ones I hate to say this, don't really matter, but the other 13 never, you know, weren't top tens, or you know, they were they probably most of them died in the 20s, 25, 30. Which seems like a feat to you. It's a great hey, look, to get that far. And that's what usually happens. But the money you have to get, but the the money is in the top 10.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

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SPEAKER_03 10:17

That's a average of yeah, complete average. Average. So it honestly depends on. Okay. So everybody has that question. I know what you're gonna you're gonna ask me. I had a song that was on the chart for 52 weeks, a full year. I'm gonna make a lot of money. And I always say, well, were 45 of them from 60 to 11? Yeah. I said, Well, really, you're getting paid on that 10 to number one. How many, how many weeks were it was it in the top 10? That's really where the majority of the money is paid. Because I can go look at the songs that I've had that have died at 30, 35, 40, barely chart, but you know, was at 48 for 12 weeks. The money, I mean, it's just it's minuscule, you know. And so it's it's really about the top of the chart. And it's and it's also a numbers game. Go if you look at a chart and you know where to look, you'll see the radio audience impressions. And you can see from a number 11 song, and I'm just making these up because I don't have a chart in front of me, but let's say you're reaching 9 million average listeners a week at 11. At number one, you're reaching 40 million.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So it's a massive difference, and they pay on who's listening, and it's not a mathematical formula, it's more of they have, I guess, uh so it really comes down to the number one, like top 10 would maybe help you recoup.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Yes. So you're you're you're you want to recoup. There's a lot of writers that the people they sign their first deals with, that's a stepping stone. It's really that second publishing company that you go to is really where your career will will excel. Now, I'm fortunate enough that um we've signed again, I'm just like Joy Beth, for example. Okay. You were her first publishing, yeah. And look at that. Yeah, in April of 21. How long was the dating process? Uh that was a quick one. She was the one I was talking about where it was like after the first meeting, I went. I I and I uh it just kept rolling around in my head of I need to be in business with her. Did she have cuts at that point? Uh yeah, maybe some small cuts. Small cuts, I think. But nothing nothing, you know, no singles or nothing significant.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

And and she had been in town a long time, and quite frankly, was I was stunned that she had not been signed. And and I just felt like it was a it was God putting her and putting each other in each other's path.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

And I remember telling multiple publishers about her, and I was like, you gotta sign Joy Beth. Like this girl I've been writing with is so good, she's so amazing. And she'd always be like at my little our little apartment downtown. And she's like, All right, I gotta go to my next write. And she was doing two a days, just like in three a days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

And we uh we did three a days for the first year. Um, but I felt like it was she wasn't getting what she needed out of it. So we cut it all the way back to where she was writing once ever or once a day for four days out of the week, and we would take Fridays off, and I would tell her to go go for a hike, go watch a movie, go read a book, go whatever to get your ideas and and uh and it was hard. I knew it'd be hard for her, it was very hard for her to go do that because she she's a workaholic. And uh um, but she's uh she's she's about to she's about to come back. She just had a baby and uh she's about back into writing and an REC on her calendar two, three days again, you know, three times a day because she's she just wants it and she wants it so bad. And that was the other that was a big part of not only was it the talent of her songwriting, it was just her work ethic was unreal.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

It was And I can't I can't imagine like by the time you've written that many songs, you have that much under your belt, the way to be able to craft a song has to come a lot faster to at where she's at.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

No, it does. And that's what people look for you in the room, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

And and to do it in a different way that hasn't been done. And to say things a different way that hadn't been done. You know, you can look at titles, just go on Spotify and scroll through, and you'll start seeing a lot of the same titles. And then it's like but once you hear it written a different way, it's like, oh, now that's good. That's that's the good stuff. Uh, you know, it's it's all a process of how do you how do you in your core bring out what somebody wants to hear that where they hear it a different way? And it could be musically, it could be lyrically, it could be melodically, you know, there's just different different ways in all the song, you know, in every song that uh how does it touch you? Where does it touch you? How does it touch you? What's your belief in risk? And and am I am I risk? Am I risky in terms of business-wise?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I I what's your risk tolerance? I'm curious because creatives have a huge amount of risk going after a dream.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

When you come to Nashville to pursue something with not a backup plan.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

That is quite risky.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

So I think everybody in the music business has a fair amount of risk because you know, I always say it's easier to win the lottery than it is to be successful in the music business. It's it is hard on no matter what table side of the table you sit on, because it filters out, you know. I mean, I my parents thought I was nuts getting in the music business. You know, just because it's it was foreign. I was born and raised in Nashville, but nobody in my family was in the music business. So it was foreign to everybody. And I just, you know, I just had to go do it. I knew every name. I knew every writer, every producer's name, uh, every player on every record. You know, back then you were able to look at albums, cassettes, and CDs and find all the information. It was right there, you know, and um and you had like I had to do it all uh every day. I befriended a lot of songwriters. I sat up with them all hours of the night, learning from them. And I'm not saying I did this uh purposely. Looking back, I didn't know what I was doing. And I think that's also the other part of the music business. No one knows really what they're doing. We're all just trying to figure it out on a day-to-day basis. But looking back, I was learning how to work with songwriters before I knew I wanted to be a music publisher. I was learning what they like to hear from someone that's on this side of the table, if you, you know, if that makes sense. How do they want to receive that information?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Would you say this side of the table is the consumer side of the table?

SPEAKER_03 18:02

No, the business side of the table.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah, but as a listener, to have someone to say, like, hey, I think this song's good, but it could be great if you tweaked this.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah. And I think you learn that also through experience. Yeah. That's a um and that's just listening to thousands and thousands and thousands of songs, you know, over you start out usually in the music, you know, in the publishing business. You you used to start out in what they called the tape room, which is, you know, all the songs came to a centralized location in a publishing company, and you were responsible for cataloging and sorting it and knowing where it is. And when the songpluckers would come in and want a copy made to go give it to George Strait, you made that copy, and then you started, again, subconsciously or whatever, figuring out why does that song keep coming up? Why does that why do they keep pitching that song? And then you see that song get recorded, and you go, Yeah, yeah, okay. I I you know, it may not be my favorite song, but now I understand. That's the other thing. It every song cannot be your favorite, you know. Not every song I have is my favorite. My favorites are, you know, different than usually what get recorded. And you have to differentiate those. And uh um but going back to the wrist question, every it's even though I feel like I'm pretty conservative, I'm definitely very risky because what we do in Nashville is different than it's done anywhere else in the world. And what I mean by that is most other music uh market cities in the world where publishers are the last piece of the puzzle. So let's say you have a band, Coldplay. Coldplay's been, let's just say, holed up, working on their material for 10 years. They start playing at a club, they get the attention of a uh either a manager or agent or a uh whomever, and they get signed up to that person. Well, within that network of that person, other people are hearing about Coldplay. Well, everywhere else in the world, all the pieces of their puzzle is put into place before publishing, usually. So the publisher in LA, UK, whatever, they get to hear a finished product, right? So, oh, okay, manager X who's been super successful with all these other acts, the label is super successful, the attorney super successful. You you get to see the whole board, playing field, if you will. And as a publisher in those arenas, you get to decide is that where you're gonna place your bet? And they generally, in my opinion, overpay on things because the risk is lower, because it's you have more, you get to see more behind the the curtain. In Nashville, the first piece of the puzzle is publishing. So we're signing all the artists and all the songwriters, usually first, and then we're in the trenches with them, helping develop whether it's their writing, their sound, whatever. And then agents, managers, uh usually attorneys uh involved in the beginning because you got to negotiate the publishing deal. But usually all the other pieces come later. So we're making all the risk initially up front. Now it is low. Because we were talking about, you know, if it's a writer, $35,000, $40,000 a year. But that's risk, is when you're blindly believing something that you see the same thing as the writer sees, and you believe you can get there together, that's that's risk.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

But you don't have other elements of the table when you're talking about seeing the fields. Yeah. Because you have those three verticals right there for data, but you really only have one data point, and that's your two.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

That's your gut and the music and your experience.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

So so Nashville operates entirely different than the rest of the world when it comes to. Yeah, yeah. So in your opinion, Nashville operates entirely different than the rest of the world in terms of music and how it gets from point A being written to the final product, which is radio. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah. That's pretty crazy, man. Yeah, it is. Well, uh, so I'm curious because your wife's in the music business as well. Has there ever been a time where you feel like and I'm curious a couple things about it, where there was a conflict of interest in like what she's doing and what you're doing? Oh, absolutely. And how do you work with that? How does that work?

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Well, I mean, the conflict of interest, I mean, it's um I guess I guess conflict would be when we when she was working with Kane as his manager, and then I was trying to sign Kane to Universal as a songwriter. I mean, that's and I guess inherently a conflict right there. But what uh I there are other people involved. You have business manager, you have attorney, and so uh they, you know, and 99 times out of a hundred, you can't pull one over on anybody. If you if you do, you're not gonna be in this business. And that's not the way we would ever operate anyway. We're never gonna want to do that to anybody. So um she, you know, I wasn't dealing with her, our attorney's was dealing with his attorney. Yeah, and and you know, I made the best offer. He had another offer or two on the table, but he, you know, chose to sign with us at Universal.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

But so there's a a couple a point of separation between you and your wife.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Yeah, I told somebody yesterday at Sony, they asked me a question about Kane, and I said, and I thought about it, and I said, you know what? We didn't even speak about the music business the entire weekend. I mean, it just hit me that I was like, I'll I'll ask her tonight, but I don't I don't have any idea the answer to that question.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask. Like, what's dinner like at home? Well, when you have two. Do you talk in the music business, or is it like worse work, home, like I'm transitioning?

SPEAKER_03 25:14

But if there's a if there's a question either one of us have, and of course during the day you can call, but you know, we'll ask each other general questions. You know, she manages six or seven other acts. So she'll ask me, Hey, what do you think about this on this particular act? And and I'll give her my opinion of whatever, and I'll ask her too on other writers. And she was a publisher before she she was originally a music publisher before she got into management. Um, and so you know, I value that. I think she's uh a great song picker. She knows great songs, and uh, and so I'll ask her, what do you think? I'll play her a song. What do you think of this that one of the writers you know wrote? And I'll be like, Oh, you know, I'm so fired up about it. And she'll be like, You're right, that would be great for Blake Shelton or whatever. And I'll be like, I didn't even think of him. And so that's great. You're like a power couple. Yeah, I think in a sense, but you know, maybe on the smaller level.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, ah, dude. What do you think about this whole movement of the Tyler Childers resurgence with the Zach Bryan thing, and then like all of a sudden these records are coming out and people are getting signed of labels that to me, 10 years ago during the bro country or like the FGL era, if I if you I feel like if y'all heard that or we heard that on the radio, we'd be like, this sounds like it was recording in someone's garage. You know what I'm saying? Like there's bands that um like uh I had on Isaac Gibson from 49 Winchester, they signed with MCA, and they're very much in like very organic, I guess I would say, sounding band. And there's this interesting kind of like weird way of the natural changes every like decade in terms of like taste. Do you think I don't am I because we've got Morgan Wallen, who's probably at the top of the format you mentioned in stadiums, and then you've got like the Zach Bryans who are the rootsy, like, I'm gonna make a mistake, play a wrong cord, and might sing it flat or whatever, but people like that humanity aspect of the music.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I think music's always been that way. I mean, back, you know, in the 70s and 80s, you had the outlaw movement. You, you know, there's always people that are, and that's who that's who I'm attracted to, you know. Uh people that are outside the square or can step one foot out and do it, but yet it it fits in here. And then there's people that it doesn't have to, you know, and that's the blessing and the curse of what releasing music out of your bedroom has done. The blessing has been you're right, it it changed if you want to call it a singular silo of country music. Um it's not all funneled down that silo anymore. And I think that's awesome. The curse is how much you have to sift through to find it. There are that, you know. I uh I heard one time, and I don't know if this is true, that there were 60,000 songs uploaded to DSPs every day.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

I think I read 30,000 a day now or AI. Oh, in and of themselves AI songs. So now the AI is a thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

So even the good, good, great music's gotta get through all that noise. Um, so that's what I think the the trick is now is getting through that. Now everybody has the opportunity. It doesn't have to be the handful of labels, AR teams anointing, you know, the next artist saying, Oh, we're gonna let you pass through. Now everybody, it's an open playing field, but it's so much more crowded. And it's, you know, there has to be a uh moment to break through. And and I think we'll find 10 years from now that they'll, you know, like, you know, people, you know, American Idol and the Voice, you know, people are like, oh, look at all these great singers. And it's like, yeah, you know, there's a lot of great singers out there, but there's, you know, it's hard to be a great artist.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

That's what I was gonna say. There's a lot of good singers, but there's not a lot of great artists. Yeah, you know, a lot of people are gifted vocally, but it doesn't mean they have the artist thing, you know. Yeah. Or what you you said at the beginning, which is the it factor, the it factor thing. That's it. And I think that that's an intangible that you're blessed with and born with, like you said. Yeah. It's like a God-given talent. Do you find in your relationship with uh working with artists that a lot of them struggle with mental health? Yes. Do you think that's part of the curse of the artist?

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah. And I think it's also uh how hard the business is. It's it's a very, very hard business. And and and I try not to uh become old man earls as I age in this business.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

I like old man earls.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

But you know, just the the guy that's like, oh, it's you know, it's not the way it used to be, and and it's so hard now. And but it it really is hard to do this day in and day out, especially what is demanded of the artist today that wasn't that was I think and and and don't take this the wrong way, record labels, major record labels, all record labels are very good at helping, but it feels like more of the burden is on the artist than ever before.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

And and I and I think it's because no one knows what to do, the labels don't know what to do. No one knows what to do. It feels like every project is released the exact same way. You know, back in the day, there were many different ways. You can get print, you know, get in Rolling Stone, and that, you know, took you to another level. You can go on Johnny Carson and that would take you to another, whatever, you know, and and now it's all, well, you got to go post more, you know, and that's just kind of, I don't know. It just it it feels like that's what's driving a lot of the, you know, the mental, not issues, but I'm sure burden for artists is it all feels like it's on them now.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, and it is. I mean, I've talked to so many that it's like the record deal, the the thing that you think your whole life you dream of, you get it. And then it's like all of a sudden it's the starting point. Yes. That's ex that's exactly right. It's like you thought you climbed the mountain. It's like, oh, just kidding. This is just like this is phase one. This is phase one.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

This is that first place where you put your tent up and you spend the night because you go, Oh my word.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, it's Everest. Yeah, that's right. It's base camp and you're uh getting used to the elevation.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

And I wish, and I understand why, but I wish artists would wait more nowadays. To build their careers bigger and have more leverage. And I always say that that uh being offered a record deal is like a woman being offered a diamond. It's hard to say no to look at the diamond. And it's hard to say no because that's like what you said, it's what you wanted your entire life up to that point. And if you could just say no, I don't think we're ready yet, and go build it more, and you get more leverage and and hopefully more help at a different level. Because as you know, as record labels which make total sense, as their success, that's where they're gonna put all their effort and money in.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, Cody Johnson's a great example of that. Yeah. Because he turned down Warner like four times or three times or something.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

And why not? Yeah. You know, it's because he was building his business, you know, outside of you know, the traditional way.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

He was out there digging it out of the clubs in Texas.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

That's Eric Church, you know, he he had signed his record deal, but he went and built his business that way, you know, and and did it without having to go to country radio initially. You know, there's and there's always different ways.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

I like it that you say build his business and build your business. And I would like you to expound upon that because too many creatives don't think of what they're doing as them operating, owning, operating, and running a business. Yeah. And they are the business.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

They are. You know, uh Lee Thomas Miller, songwriter in Nashville, always says that the number one smallest business in the U.S. is a songwriter. And that's so true. And because you are you are building, you're building your business. As a music publisher or as a record company, we get to become a partner in your business. At the end of the day, the copyright laws allow you to take your copyrights back after years, after, you know, X number of years. You get to file with the copyright office and they go back. Um, so you it is your business. I'm here to help along your business, you know, and along the way. And and you have to look at it that way, because it is. It's the music business, and the word business is longer than music.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

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SPEAKER_03 36:28

Right now we have one, two, we have uh two, and if you count Kane. Um so Kane is signed directly to Sony, but I help with him, and he's the co-owner in verse two. Okay. So we work, you know, as a team on that side. And then we have two other artists.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

And then we have one, two, three, four other songwriters.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

So what seven in total? Um do you do you foresee it being more writer artists in the long run?

SPEAKER_03 37:15

I don't ever say that. I I no, uh it's whoever I meet, you know, it's whoever I meet. But you vibe it out. Yeah, that I do. I mean, at this point in my career, you know, I I worked for the major for 22 years. Uh, ran it, you know, I did, I hit I hit all my goals doing that. I'm not chasing market share. I'm not trying to become the number one independent publishing company. What I I want to I want to help writers and artists like I always have and enjoy doing it and not get into the reason why I ended up having to take a year and a half off after I left Universal, because it was you become you you become numb, you become in the rat race of trying to, you know, trying to have everybody's hit. You it it's just it's a it's a hard business in that sense, like I keep saying. And I'm not after that anymore, you know. I had to I had to take time off to love music again.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

That's profound.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

And that's and and I didn't know if I was coming back. And I was young, I was in my mid-40s, and I thought I was done, and not not done like done because I could be done. And and and then I realized no, I'm not done. And I want to go I wanna I wanted to get back to what got me in the business signing and developing artists and writers. And that's at this level. It's not a level of chasing every hit on the on the radio or on the charts.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

And that's exhausting. Yes. Um, I was watching a guy, his name is Michael Bryan. He was the head of uh the global head of country music at Apple. Okay, and he left five months ago. Oh, yeah, Michael Bryan. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

He used to be a PD at WSX, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah, he's like been in the business basically his whole life. And he posted a video yesterday, I think. And I watched it this morning, so six minutes long on Instagram. And he talked about the things you can't talk about when you work there. Like you uh universally, and he basically said, I was so burnt out when I left. I didn't even like listening to music, and I didn't like the songs, and my health wasn't good, yeah, and I'm tapering off my anxiety medicine now, and I'm trying to get healthier, and I haven't felt this good in like so long, he's talking about. Yeah, and he's kind of transitioning roles and he's uh managing Charlie Warsham. Oh, that's great. Yeah, and so he's doing something that he's excited about, and he says that there's a you know a privilege in the fact that he can do that now, but at the same time, the exhaustion of that corporate position just eats you up. It does. So I'm curious about what that was like for you and kind of how you came to a place where you took that time off.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Well, it was forced. They they decided they wanted to make a change. Um, but I was ready. I mean, it was and they were very, very kind, very kind to me. And uh um, but they came and said, you know, we want to make a change, and this is who we're this is what we're doing. And uh I said, okay. And I had 18 months left on my contract. So I knew I was gonna that was June of 2019. So I knew I was gonna take the rest of that year off, um, regardless. It didn't matter if someone came and offered me the next greatest job. I was, you know, I knew I needed that time off. We had two young girls at home. I got to spend invaluable time with them. That's like COVID, right? And and then COVID started uh March of 20, which threw a wrench into everything. And then uh uh and that was fine too. I was used to being at home anyway, so it it really it threw a more of a wrench in Martha than you know, from having to, you know, try to try to keep that engine going down the tracks, you know, with everybody being at home. But um, and then you know, the the more I talked to people, and I was very fortunate that a lot of people reached out, I wouldn't say a lot, I'd say six or eight different companies, people reached out with different ideas, and and I took every call and uh listened to everybody. And the more and more it it became apparent that I I don't I don't have to sit in a C-suite anymore. That's not where I need to be anymore. And unfortunately, my wife was uh wonderful and supportive, and everybody's heard me say this that she said, Hey, you got us this far, let me take us home. And so it took all the pressure off of I need to go find that CEO job again. And and then that's when I realized what what was it that made me love the music business? And it was getting back down to the song level and finding and working with those writers and artists. And and the greatest joy you have is in in my position is when you find something, you sign it, and they have their first hit. And it's you know, we've been very fortunate that every artist every writer that we have signed except one has had a hit um since they signed with us. So it's been very, very rewarding. And uh it's you know, I love I love doing it.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

And there's not the pressure you see. That's the CEO, right? All right, sitting up there in the top of the building you know, carrying different pressure.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

That's a different music business, and you can I was able to I was able to hold it off as long as I could, meaning I was able to stay creative. You know, usually in the music business is is the you work your way up and it may not be the best thing. Meaning I I I recognized after I went home for 18 months that I I shouldn't run a company that size anymore. That's not that's not where I excel at. I'd be a great number two. I'd be an awesome number two, you know, um, where I focus more on the creative side, more on the signing developing side than all the other stuff. Because you become a HR person, you become an accountant, you become a lawyer, you become all those things that that are rolled up. And I was able to hold off as much of that as I could and still keep the creative for as long as I could. And while I was the head of Universal, I I pitched and had a number one song. And and you know, and it was just it just becomes too much, and you can't do both, and you have to finally take the reins of the company, and it's like a Titanic or a whatever, and it's just hard to I don't know, hard steer that ship when you're all those roles. And uh um, and because you're trying to you're trying to and you also have to guide your team. And and you know, and then writers are coming in there and they're having problems. And it's just a it's a it's a lot. It's a it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

I don't want to be CEO, except of my podcast.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, you know, one day in that job, it has to be the amount of meetings it's it's like drinking from a fire hose. Oh, I'm sure. I heard a quote that was uh uh a busy calendar that's scheduled out as a hedge against existential dread. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

That's exactly right. Well, a lot of times you didn't have to put anything on the calendar. And it became your busiest day of the week because it was something at all times. And it was uh um and especially if you wanted to if you wanted to keep the company moving forward, it's it's what's required. I mean, you know, you have two or three other great companies in Nashville that are doing that every day, and you're you're trying to stay, you know, you know, at the same pace as they are.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Can I can I take a guess at what brought you back on the the music side? What's that in terms of listening? Because I would imagine you took a break from listening to music. Did what bring you back to the music was the records that you listened to when you were very young? Yeah, of course. The the stuff that was formative to you that you loved the 80s, or what your dad listened to it was 80s country and rock, and and my kids now know all those songs by heart because we rode around listening to them that whole you know, time off.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

That's what I thought.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

That's exactly I'm going through that right now, and I'm listening to the my dad passed a year, January of last year, and he was my biggest influence musically. And we had the Eagles, Fleet with Mac, Beatles, Wyatt Album. It was the Eagles Greatest Hits, volume two, Fleet with Mac greatest hits, Wyatt album, and then an Elvis tape. Those were the four tapes and we didn't have a lot of money, and uh, that's what we listened to, and that was the Eagles and Fleet with Mac the most. Yeah, and I kind of just took a I listened to a lot of just like coffee table-ish jazz. It just relaxes my brain. But I've just gone back to starting to listen to that Eagles record again to try to rediscover the love music because I have a story that's for another time, but it's like I feel like myself, I I relate with your story because there comes this like it's the creation and commerce thing, and you start it because you love it and you do it, and then all of a sudden this commerce part steps in and it makes it really ugly, and it gets really confusing. And before you know it, you're swamped with it, and then you have all this responsibility and you have kids and you have to make money. And it's like this thing that started as a pure love turned into uh this has to work or else that's right. Or it's a failure, or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

It's a failure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

And and it doesn't it they don't have to be exclusive all the time. That's the that's the other part. And that's like I was saying that you can have both, but you need both. You know, I love songs that that aren't the hits. There are so many songs that nobody's ever gonna hear that I think are great because they're technically not hits, I guess. Yeah, even though they're great songs.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

My favorite one of my favorite things you've said today is I look for the person that has one foot out of the box. See, to me, that's what's exciting. And my friend Jody Williams, his he kind of thinks that way too. I think. Yeah. He says that he's looking for the person that's doesn't have the that's not on the radio, you know, like the first them instead of a copycat. You know Morgan Wallins always going to be able to sell out stadiums, but the people that are in his wake are not going to be able to. It's gonna be fleeting. It will be. It will be very fleeting. Man, what's in terms of like advice you've been given over your career as like mentors to you? What's one of the best pieces of advice you've received?

SPEAKER_03 50:23

I think try to figure out who you are in terms of or where you want to go in the business and stay on that path. Don't jump around, you know, as much as, you know, because you could take job, don't take a job just for the extra money. Make sure that is your that's your career path, that that's part that that gets you to where you want to go. And and because I'd had job offers very young, and I was like, oh, maybe I can go do AR or maybe I can go do this. And and I had a mentor tell me, where do you want to end up? And I said, Well, my goal is to run one of the major publishing companies. And he's like, Don't do anything to step get off that road. And so I think that's if you can figure that out. A lot of people can't. A lot of people don't know what they want to do, you know. And but the quick the the quicker you figure that out, the easier your vision will be, and you'll know where to go from there.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Mentorship. How important is that?

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Uh very important. Especially as the business changes so much. And your mentor, your mentor can be older or younger, you know. I I I had lunch with a guy today and he was talking about the new uh, you know, the new social media algorithms or whatever, and how they're affecting his artists. And I'm sitting here going, I need to go find a mentor in digital marketing to understand exactly everything he was saying because I I that's not he wasn't speaking language that I understood.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Was he talking about TikTok not pushing his the or the views going down dramatically on TikTok? Yeah. All of the algorithms changed because it was acquired by Oracle.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

Yeah. Yeah. And it and and and I kind of understood it, but it was like after I left that lunch, driving up here, I was I was thinking, I need a mentor. I need a mentor outside of that as we sign, if we sign a developing artist, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Haley works for TikTok, so she can be your we can be your mentors. See, there we know all about it.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

And then and then before me, the greatest thing the my mentors gave me, and Jody Williams is actually one of them. Jody hired me at MCA in '97.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 53:08

And uh, but uh Rusty Gaston, myself, my wife, Martha, and Mike Molinar, or I would say 20-something years ago, we took Jody Williams, Pat Higdon, and Tim Whipperman, who were the four of us, like our mentors, to dinner. So the seven of us went to dinner just to get even more mentorship from them. And uh um they one of the biggest things that they taught us was the the respect of the people that came before. I feel like there's none of that in in in nowadays. And I'm not saying, oh, we need you they I I I just think you need to know why things were done a certain way and who did them and you know what what you can take from that to build your path. And and that was uh uh that dinner was has always been very special. It was probably let me think, it was in 26. Yeah, yeah, I bet it was 2005 when we did that.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

In 70 something episodes, you're the only second person to say that. Really? The first person to say that was Tony Harrell at M V2.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

And I met him playing. I won the or I was a finalist in this guitar competition with Vince Gill. Then I met Jody actually, it was through Larry Fitzgerald. Oh, yeah. When Jody was still at BMI and Larry came and introduced me to Jody, and we had a meeting together, and they both kind of you know helped me along the way. But uh yeah, man, he said, Tony said the same thing. You need to look at, you know, the the path you're walking and the people that walked it before you, essentially what you just said. And I've always found that to be profound because we don't think about it. And the biggest thing that grounds me in that is that Ken Burns documentary on country music to see who came before. That's right. And I think for you guys too, in the business on the like executive side in the business, um, it's gotta be the executives, you know, who ran the business, how did they do a great job of it? You know, who are the greats? Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Right? Yeah. And you'll learn something.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

You learn something every time. And it and it's not always, oh, I learned something to do. It's also I learned something not to do. There are things that my mentor that I was like, I'm not gonna do it that way. And they would say, well, you got to remember this was a different time. You know, it's just a different time. And but then there's things that you learn from, you know, other mentors that you're like, oh, I carry that with me every day.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

You know, it's uh I think it, I think it goes both ways.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

What's your biggest piece of advice in the next generation? I mean, you said like the a piece of advice given to you was follow the footsteps, that right?

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Yeah, yeah. Now if you were stay on stay on your path to where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

That's the biggest piece of advice is stay on the path to where you want to go. Now, my question there is sometimes there's has to be pivots. Yeah. Or like God'll close a door and open a door. This is my belief personally. I'm learning how to surrender my life instead of try to control it. I had plans for my life, and my life's in a very different spot than what the younger Stefan had planned, you know, 20 years ago. But uh I'm good with that. Sure. But I've also had to adjust that path. So, what do you say to the person that has stayed on a path, but it's been redirected? Is it like stay on that path?

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Stay in the game. Keep a chip and a chair, if that makes sense, like an old poker term. As long as you have a chip, you have a chair, you're still in the game.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

It's been really cool talking to you. Thank you. I can't believe this is your first podcast. Very first podcast. You're you're a natural. I don't know about that. I appreciate your openness and your candor. Yeah. That's one thing I've always I've always done, though. Well, I just I just like it when someone can just be straight up and honest and open, man. And that's something that um I really like. There's a do you know Eddie Tidwell by chance?

SPEAKER_03 57:39

I know of him, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

So Eddie, you you he kind of you you remind me of him a little bit, or vice versa, but he kind of went through that same Renaissance that you went through career-wise with the the golden age of I don't know, the before it ended. That's right. And he was with um Irv Wolsey's company.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Yeah, he was a little bit ahead of me. Okay. And in career, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's he's getting up there. Uh huh. What can we do collectively as a as an audience to support what you're doing, support your your writers, artists, is there anything?

SPEAKER_03 58:22

Go listen to music, however, you get your music, go to uh writers and nights, go support writers at the beginning level. That's where they need the most support. And that the that would mean more to me than a stream on one of our songs is go find writers' nights and try to find the next Joy Beth Taylor.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Great advice. Thank you guys for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit like, subscribe. It's your free gift to the show. And over half of the listeners of this podcast are not subscribed. So please do that. We appreciate it. And share it on your socials if you enjoyed this conversation. And we'll see you for the next episode. And thank you once again.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

You're welcome. Thank you. Peace.