The Stephan Hogan Podcast

When the Dream Becomes a Business

• Stephan Hogan • Season 1

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:09:15

https://www.gofundme.com/f/stephanhoganpodcast

Stephan sits down with Mitchell Tenpenny for a real conversation about fatherhood, grief, losing a parent, anger, therapy, phones, social media, AI, fake validation, human connection, and why live music still matters in a world full of content.

Mitchell Tenpenny is known for songs like Drunk Me, Truth About You, At the End of a Bar, and his latest chapter as an artist, husband, and soon-to-be father.

Mitchell Tenpenny is a multi-platinum country artist, songwriter, and performer with one of the most recognizable voices in modern country music. But this conversation goes far beyond the songs.

Mitchell Tenpenny opens up about becoming a father, losing his dad, trying to be present, and the strange weight that comes with chasing something you love. He talks honestly about anxiety, performing live, protecting his voice, and the mental side of walking on stage when thousands of people are expecting you to deliver.

Stephan Hogan and Mitchell Tenpenny also talk about what happens when the dream starts working. The number one songs, the pressure to keep going, the expectations, the business, and the moment the thing you love can start to feel like something you have to keep alive.

At the center of the conversation is a question a lot of people eventually face:

What do you do when the thing you love starts to feel heavy?

Toward the end, Mitchell Tenpenny dives deeper into songwriting, Nashville, country music, why some writers get caught trying to impress other writers, and why the best songs are usually the ones that feel honest, simple, and human.

Subscribe to The Stephan Hogan Podcast for more conversations with artists, songwriters, music executives, entrepreneurs, and creative leaders shaping the future of music, business, and culture.

Connect with The Stephan Hogan Podcast:

https://www.tiktok.com/@stephanhogan
https://www.instagram.com/stephanhogan
https://www.facebook.com/stephanhogan

Email: contact@mavericksmediaco.com

Filmed in Nashville, TN
Produced: Stephan Hogan
Mavericks Media Co. Production

SPEAKER_03

The problem with NASCAR right now is songwriters are writing for other songwriters. And they're not writing for the listeners. What do you mean by that? Trying to impress just trying to every word and every phrase and everything needs to be so perfect and boom boom boom.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like And clever.

SPEAKER_03

And clever. And it's like, dude, you're just writing for the other the guy in the room. The guy that's going to listen to this that lives in Arkansas isn't going to give a shit about that. I'm so tired of like, no, man, whoa, we said we said this word in the first verse. We can't say it over here. I'm like, why not? Yeah, and I was younger when I lost dad, like, you know, and that was a lot of anger came from that. Being somebody people want to be around is so important as far as networking and just sending your career into a chance that might work. You gotta be someone people want to surround themselves with. It's that's gonna get you further than being a great guitar player that's an asshole. Or a great singer that just nobody wants to be around. That's none of that matters. Everyone in town's great. Everybody can play.

SPEAKER_00

If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, it's never been about chasing clicks, okay? We started this podcast because we genuinely wanted to create conversations that help people feel less alone, conversations about life, creativity, business, healing, faith, mental health, purpose, what it takes to keep going in all kinds of industries, music. For almost three years now, my wife and I, Haley and I have poured everything into this financially, emotionally, mentally, all of it. Lots of sleep inside, lots of teeth grinding. I lost my mouth guard. Honestly, we've never really asked our audience for help before. It's a lot uncomfortable because we've never done a Patreon, we've never put episodes behind paywalls, we've tried to keep showing up and making the best conversations we possibly can, but right now we're in a huge transition. We have to leave this current space and we're building a new home for the podcast, and we're gonna own it. And the good news is it has the potential to help us create even better conversations and reach even more people and get out more content. And the hard part is it's very expensive. Soundproofing, furniture, lighting, another camera for a wider cinematic shot, audio treatment, production gear, editing costs, all the behind the scenes stuff that you don't always see when you watch or listen to an episode. And because the podcast has always been a labor of love, we simply can't do it alone anymore. So if this podcast has encouraged you, if it's helped you through something, it's if it's helped you think differently or just made you feel understood and educated you, we'd be incredibly grateful if you consider supporting what we're building. There's a GoFundMe link in the description below. You can go to GoFundMe.com slash Stefan S-T-E-P-H-A-N, Hogan Podcast. That's S-T-E-P-H-A-N, not E N. Hogan Podcast. Every single contribution helps us continue creating conversations that matter, and more than anything, thank you for believing in what we're building here. Now let's get into today's episode with Mitchell Tinpenny. My guest today is Mitchell Tinpenny, one of the biggest modern hitmakers in country music. Starting off with a lie.

SPEAKER_03

I love it.

SPEAKER_00

A multi-platinum artist, songwriter, and performer from Nashville, whose voice and songwriting have made him one of the genre's most recognizable stars. He has surpassed 2.5 billion global on-demand streams, scored three number one country radio singles with Drunk Me, which was a song I streamed to death.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you, man. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, all your streams are probably from me. Thank you. Next, number one, Truth About You, and then At the End of a Bar, and earned major award nominations from the ACM Awards, CMA Awards, and CMT Music Awards. He has performed on the ACMs, the CMAs, the Tonight Show, starring Jimmy Fallon. Watch What Happens Live and today. And he has shared stages with artists, including Jason Aldean, Luke Combs, Kane Brown, Luke Bryan, Jordan Davis, and Chris Young. His third studio album, The Third, marked his most personal chapter yet. His latest single, Speed of Light, arrives in a season that feels even more meaningful now as he and his wife, Megan Patrick, are expecting their first child, a baby girl.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

On top of all that, his tenpenny fund has raised more than half a million dollars to support families affected by cancer. Mitchell, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_03

Man, thanks for having me. Thanks for making me feel cool. The best thing there is the daughter, though. I'm so excited about that. That's truly something I cannot wait for, and we've wanted a long time.

SPEAKER_00

I'm curious what it did to you, what changed in you the moment you found out.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I think I'm still in a way processing that. I mean, you said you have a three-year-old, you said, and um, I'm sure there's uh layers to the change. I mean, at first it's like this overwhelming feel feeling, then there's this relief. It's something you've wanted, but then thought it wasn't gonna happen. And then um right now we're just in that just praying every day that everything's healthy, everything comes out like you know, great and healthy, the baby's good and mom's good, and so there's a little bit of that fear in it too, but I I think it's just not gonna hit me until until day of. I mean, my brother just had his and it's kind of the same same way we've talked a lot about it. I think it's one of those things where you know, when you see that miracle and you hold it, I think it's uh gonna change everything.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's gonna change. Yeah. Yeah, I remember when Haley was pregnant, it was that like it's almost like it's exciting for sure. Yeah. But until the baby pops out, dude. I remember when the baby came out, I saw its head and I thought its head was a certain size, was actually way bigger, and it came out and it was like an alien, dude. It freaked me out, man.

SPEAKER_03

Uh my brother said quite the same thing.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, dude. I'm interested for that part. Uh yeah, it's an interesting part for sure. Uh dude, what feels less important to you now? Is there anything that just feels less important?

SPEAKER_03

And I used to struggle with feeling like I'm letting everybody down if I don't keep up with everybody all the time, or if I'm not, you know, just being present. And it's just that took a lot for me to back off of and come up with a different perspective on it and be like, you know, it's okay to be, you know, to know each other, and then when you pass to be polite, but like, you know, I can't with my time off be going down and hanging out with somebody every weekend that you know I truly don't know super well. And that's something that I've kind of re-focused and how to deal with for sure.

SPEAKER_00

If we back up to y you being signed at Riser House, this was how many years ago was that?

SPEAKER_03

Nine, nine years ago. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And even before that, it was kind of starting. I mean, I met I met uh my investor early on, and we we were doing things before the entity of Riserhouse was created. Um and doing like indicator radio stations for me and one of my best friends, Brad Claus, and would rent a car and get just go drive to these, you know, mobile homes with an antenna and just be playing our songs and trying to get our songs on the radio in whatever small town we could be in. And that was a lot of fun to be honest, just knowing absolutely nothing. But it's yeah, I'd say nine years since Riser House first signed, but before that, probably about 10 or 11.

SPEAKER_00

So many people I talk to on this podcast have gone through the the journey, you know, that you've gone through. Sure. And so many of them echo that sentiment of the people pleasing, or like, hey, they're gonna try to, you know, certain people will want to shape you a certain way. The first song you come out with is gonna set a precedence for who you are. Yeah. Like Charlie Warsham a while ago said, I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but basically, if you don't know who you are, people might invent a version of you and you might not like that version that people invent. Super real.

SPEAKER_03

Super real.

SPEAKER_00

What for you was a moment where you were like, I don't think I need to listen to everybody anymore?

SPEAKER_03

It's kind of a combination of all of it, man. I think, like I said, just get an exhausting. It gets exhausting where you're just like looking around and you're like, man, I'm I'm doing a lot over here and not getting the returning, and it just kind of all hits at once. You're like, maybe I should just surround myself of the core people that make me happy, make me feel like myself. I I never had a problem knowing what I wanted to do as an artist. I never had someone there are people that try, you know, to reshape the sound or reshape something if it's not working in the moment, but I never had a problem of what I wanted to do. Um, I'm pretty stubborn like that, but um, which was good for me. I kind of grew up in the business and I knew I knew that what Charlie said would to be true before I even got to do it. So it's kind of something that was always in the forefront of my mind is you need to be steadfast in what you want to do, otherwise you will get run over and it will be not not a lot of fun. But a million other things surround that that you gotta figure out that you had no clue about. And you know, I think we're still learning. I'm still learning every day, but I I have learned that like the ride or dies are the most important thing in the world to me, and that's what I want to devote my time to. Um and again, I I am the kind of person I love to people please, I love to pump people up. Like I love to get people fired up. Um, I love to see a light in people's eyes when you do that, when you encourage or, you know, just make them think that they can do it. Like, I I do love that. But um, you know, sometimes when that comes, the like all of a sudden they they start clinging to you. I want more of that. And you're like, man, I, you know, I I gotta spend time with my wife today. I gotta spend time with this. Like, I can't come back out to the bar and and do that. That was I meant what I said when I said it, but that doesn't mean that we're gonna hang out every Friday because I, you know, spread myself too thin when I do that.

SPEAKER_00

You say you want a life less stressful. Yeah, absolutely. I think we could all agree with that, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03

I definitely I create a lot of the stress myself. I will admit that all day long. How so? I just I have a lot of expectations for myself and um and for what I do and who I am and you know, and just what I want to accomplish. And you know, I put I have visions in my head that you know the timelines don't always work out the same way. Sometimes they do, sometimes they're faster than I thought. And uh I don't know. I just got a lot going on up there that I try to compartmentalize and I'm learning different ways to do that, and uh it's it's it's been really good.

SPEAKER_00

Uh is there a who I am Mitchelton Penny that's the brand, and then a who I am Mitchelton Penny that's the husband at home.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean there's I'm still I'm definitely me, but there's you know, there's there's part of it that's the you know the the brand that you sell. I I don't venture off too far from what I do though. I have my limits. I I do want to be me and I want to be perceived as authentic because that's the most important thing in the world to me. But you know, when you're selling a product or selling music, sometimes you gotta do something that is a little bit more brand focused. You know, especially in this world where we have so much out coming at us all the time. And like we even talking about earlier, like thumbnails and stuff, what is gonna grab the attention? I think that's the part of me that thanks to the brand. But as far as my music and who I am on stage and when I talk to people and meet and greet, it's like I'm me. I couldn't do it. Um I couldn't do it if I wasn't. It would drive me absolutely nuts. Um, the imposter syndrome um is something that I've always struggled with, and I just cannot fake something like that. You'd see a mile, you'd see it a mile away. I mean, I'm just I'm not capable of that. I'm just not good at it.

SPEAKER_00

What year was your first number one?

SPEAKER_03

18, 2018? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

I'm terrible with dates. I don't remember anything. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Around then. Yeah. We'll say to that. It's a number. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it, you know, our first song, our first try at it, and kind of puts a weird perspective in your head. You're like, oh man, this could this could be an easy road. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00

So what was it like? So this is what I'm curious about, man, because that that thing hit number one. It was a plane on every radio station and playlist, and you're like mountain topping essentially. What happens after that? Is it like now that I have the number one, I gotta get to the next one? Is it now number one chasing?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you gotta, it's just like I don't want to be the the one that you get one and you don't get the other, and then now you got this real expectation in your head of all right, now we got a business and we got a business model, and we have to make this much a year to keep this business going. And if I don't write this song, or if it doesn't do well, then that affects everybody else besides me, just me. And it becomes it becomes the music business. It does, it's not the music anymore. And so you start listening to other people, you start listening to other people's opinions more, you forget the reason you were there in the first place and why they wanted to sign you. You start thinking about too business while you know too much at that point. And the music can sometimes reflect that. And I think just the the passion reflect you just you kind of lose that spark for a minute because you're chasing something again. When and when you're before you get it, it's like you don't know that you need it. You just want it. After you after you get it, then you need it again, otherwise you're gone. And that's uh it's a tough thing when when you it's your livelihood. And so you start balancing all that together and that's uh you know, a lot of clutter in your mind if you're trying to write a song. Um, you know, it's just a lot to think about when you should be thinking about the song.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's like having a freaking chain around your neck.

SPEAKER_02

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because you're writing a song, but you're not writing a song to write like when you wrote it's uh drunk me, you probably weren't thinking about the business model as much as you were just thinking about writing a great song.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, I was I mean, I was more in the songwriter headspace that I'm always a songwriter first, pitching it. Uh I mean, I thought Blake Shelton was gonna do that song. Like I I love songwriting for other artists, and I was just thinking I was writing something that was personal to my life, but just I wanted I didn't have a clue what that song would do. And you know, it just ended up back in my arms because we signed a record deal and we needed a song, and I needed something that sounded different. I went back in and put my voice on it. Uh, songwriter Justin Wilson, I wrote it with him and Jordan Schmidt. Justin sung that demo and he crushed it. His voice was awesome, and I just sounded so good. And and uh I remember being like, Man, I don't even want to attempt this song because he sounds so good on it. But I remember singing it, my producer Jordan he said, Let's do this one. We sung it, I came back in and listened. I was like, I don't know if it's good or bad, but I know it's different. And if we're gonna stand a chance at this thing that we just signed, it's gotta sound different. And um, so we went with that song, and it wasn't, I did not write it for me. Like, never, that was not in my mind when we were writing that song. But it's crazy how it kind of finds its way, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

What about the other two number ones? Were those the same kind of mindset?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Inn of a Bar was written for Chris Young, and he was I wrote that song for him, and that day he was kind of sick. He's like, buddy, you mind going in and singing the demo? And I was like, Dangummit, man, uh, sure. And like, like just because I did I didn't want him to be like, oh now it's your song, and like, so I went in there and I sung it as hard as I possibly could because I wanted Chris, I know Chris, and I wanted him to be like, all right, now I want to go put my own vocal on it because I want to, you know, kind of compete in back and forth as friends. And it kind of worked out for that. I mean, he called me the next week. Can I put my vocal on it? I was like, absolutely. And then he called and was like, Man, would you want to another week goes by, but you want to do it together? And I was like, sure, man. And then another week goes by. I think it's gonna be, I'm gonna put on the record, and then up to it's gonna be my single, and it just it just kept kind of you know, step stone stepping stones from that, and it was so cool. Um, but it was originally I had no, I wasn't gonna sing on it, wasn't gonna be a part of it. All it was his and just kind of worked out to do it together at the end. And that vocal is what I sung that day. I never went back and sung it because I tried to give it everything I had.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. Dude, yeah, you got how many octaves can you sing?

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. It it depends on it. Let's depend on the day, yeah. Three and a half. Um it's a lot, dude.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like the emotion that you get out of your voice is is crazy to me. Thank you, man. I'm like, dude, I w I wish I had a voice that could be down here and then be like, and then screaming like a tube amp, and it breaks up and it's smoky. It's and it's very unique, thank you. Which is a thing, like there's a lot of like great singers. You watch the voice or whatever. There's great singers, but there's not great artists, but you're one of them, man.

SPEAKER_03

And thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I I I don't joke. I I I'm not a trained singer. I I don't know how to sing properly. And so, like, I have set myself up where like it's it's something I worry about all the time is losing my voice voice and keeping my voice healthy because of the way I sing like that. You know, I just imitated people I heard on the radio or in records and kind of came up with my own voice, whatever happened after puberty and singing. And I just, but yeah, it scares me. I can't, you know, three shows in a row is a lot. I that's like kind of my limit, and I gotta take care of that because like I don't know professionally how to sing. Yeah, I'm not a trained singer, and so it's one of those things where I've gone, I've taken lessons, I've tried to learn, but when I sing the right way, it doesn't sound like me. And it doesn't have that timbre, and it doesn't have that, and that's so I'm all there's that side of like I don't want to oversing and damage something, but if I sing the right way, it doesn't sound like me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like diaphragmatic stomach.

SPEAKER_03

I'm learning like this new way. I've I've actually the last week I felt really good on the road through three shows, and it's been a long time that I felt really good and um just worked a lot with my in-ears and just being able to hear myself instead of trying to you know really overpower because I get excited on stage, and you know, the best feeling in the world is if somebody's singing back your song, and so you start over singing, and it's one of those things where I'm just trying to take a breath, relax, try to be in the moment and don't you know overdo it. Um, and I'm I'm learning that as we go, but last week felt really good. Um honestly, first time in a long time, like mentally, because that's such a thing that plays on you mentally when your voice isn't there where you want to be.

SPEAKER_00

Let's say you're backstage, you're gonna go on, everybody's there to see you, you're headlining because you have this headlining tour. Yeah, and they're there to see you. And I I'm curious what is going through your head before you go out there. Is it like, man, I hope my my voice holds up? Is it every time don't oversing? Is that the resounding voice? Every time.

SPEAKER_03

There's never been a show in the last six years of my life where I've truly just been like, I can't wait to get out on stage because it's just gonna be great. It's always a fear of man, I just want to make sure that I can give them what they're here for. And I hate that. And so I'm really working on like I said, like I really feel good about last week. Like I'm doing something, warming up better. See, like that makes me mentally feel so much better and have so much more fun on stage. I mean, I've gotten to play incredible venues, like where I'm should be looking around, enjoying every moment, and I'm just worried, am I gonna be able to sing tomorrow? And I hate that. And uh so it's just taken a lot of toll over the years mentally, of like, man, this is your job, it's what you do, you sing, you should enjoy singing. Um, and so I'm like trying to figure out a way to sustain that for for you know the rest of my life. And I think I'm on the right path now, but it's it's a scary thing, it's a real thing. And I mean, and a lot of singers don't talk about that. It's it's true, it's just something you have to deal with. If you lose, I mean, on this tour, we had to cancel, well, we moved a show first time in my entire career because my voice was gone. And uh, I was sick, I was super sick, but I woke up that morning and I couldn't talk. I've never canceled a show for my voice. And um, like that was that that was I hated that. Like, that was tough. So trying to make sure that doesn't ever happen again. You know, we can't control when we get sick and stuff, but that was I hated that.

SPEAKER_00

Very human. Yeah, it it it it happens, yeah. And I think people understand it too. I've heard John Mayer talk about this, and I'd like to get your sh your take on it. Yeah, so he's like performing, he's on stage, and in his mind, he's like, You just sung that note a little flat, or like you could have played that a little better. So there's this inner dialogue the entire show. Yeah, meanwhile, people are out there listening and have no idea that you're doing all this little like tactical calculation in your mind to be able to like make things go right. Yeah, and uh what what's going on in your head during that?

SPEAKER_03

I think it would be so fascinating if um, well, first off, I'm a massive John Mayer fan. So I would love if there was a way to hear that dialogue. I would love for people to hear my dialogue. It is you would never in a million years think that's what's going on. I don't watch a lot of stuff I do, like like rewatch, like for music videos I'll watch and say there it is. I don't like, or people YouTube videos, like I don't watch a lot of stuff. After I've done it, I've done it. It's just kind of how my brain works. But I've been going back and watching shows so I can so I can kind of get in the mindset of what they're actually seeing because what I'm saying in my head and what I think is going on is nothing like the video I see when I look back on it.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm just constantly So what's the what are you saying in there?

SPEAKER_03

Every I mean, every set like you said, that's a big one. Like I missed that note, I could have gone there. Um, I like okay, my voice is here. I know I'm looking down the set list. I got two songs. I got a song that's in freaking E. And I'm like, okay, so I need to make sure I get through this now. Next song here, I be be pre be present of I'm gonna have to change a melody on this next song. I'm already thinking about the song ahead to get to the next song after that of how I need to sing this so that my vocals there, which side of the stage I'm gonna be on when I do it, how I'm gonna hold my mic and cover it up if I if like what just a million different things. Then somebody will hold a sign up or they'll hold up a phone with something, then I read that, and I loop forget where my lyrics are. Like I'm always worried about forgetting my lyrics. I'm terrible. I need to just do the screen, the prompter. I need to do it, but like there's part of me that's like, nope, that's cheating. Don't use your prompter. But I there's a million things going on in my head, but especially with playing guitar playing too. Like I pride myself on being able to play guitar. Like I love guitar, that's my first instrument. I'm I I could play guitar. And if I miss a note, if I didn't bend it quite high enough, I'm like, they hate me, they know I suck, like immediately in my head. It's like they don't even hear that generally unless you're a guitar nerd or something. But just the the massive, you're just I'm beating myself up on stage, I guess, the whole time.

SPEAKER_00

So when you come off, are you exhausted?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's a it's such a funny thing. The the weight of the world feels like it's lifted off your shoulders when I get off stage. It's almost like, and I hate saying this because it's not like I don't love it, I do, but it's almost like thank God that's over. Even though that was amazing. It's because the whole time I'm just wanting to give them what they paid for instead of enjoying myself, what I'm doing as well. So when I walk up, when I finally hit that last note and I hold the guitar up and cheers, there is this massive amount of weight lifted off of me that's um that's just like that's all right, we did it. We did it. On to the next thing. And I don't think that's necessarily bad. I think that you should want to be great the whole time, but I think there's a balance that can be found. But I've talked to a billion artists, they all do that on stage. It's kind of part of it. It's like I'm sure if you know people that act on Broadway are thinking the same thing, if you're putting on a performance, you know, that's the deal. It's different than hanging around a bonfire. I'll miss a note, who cares? We're having fun, but where you're doing the show, it's the show, and that's how my mind thinks about it. And um but I would like to find some you know, medium there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, where you can go out and just care less.

SPEAKER_03

I would love to care less. I think that's a a good goal, and I think that would get back, um, bring back a lot of the early being in bands, being a kid, falling in love with music, wanting that. I think caring less would bring back a lot, a lot of that joy um in there as well.

SPEAKER_00

I'm curious about the the business stuff that you had mentioned because people are like kind of naive. I think that we move to Nashville being like, man, I'm gonna be a songwriter, I'm gonna write hits. Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna sell out the stadium, you know, or whatever it is. It's this blind optimism. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's needed though, at the beginning of the state.

SPEAKER_00

So, where does blind optimism and just creation and creativity turn into commerce? And then when it when the creation and commerce ha meet and come together, yeah, and you start getting involved in the business side. How can you wal walk us through that, walk me through that? Because I'm a little interested in that. Because I think this is one of those things that the younger me or the younger you would be so naive too.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think if the if I was able to go back and say, hey, watch out for this, watch out for that, I would do it. I'd still, I'd still learn my lessons. It's just that's just the stubbornness of the confidence, uh, like you said, of just like, I'm I'm here to do this. That was the plan. Like there's not really a plan, but the plan is I'm here and I'm doing it. And like whatever that looks like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. And you just I don't think there's anything I could say to change to change anything that's happened. I think it all happens for a reason. I would just say, you know, I would try to just say, you know, enjoy these, enjoy these, the highs, quit thinking about the next thing, but I don't know if that's even possible. Like it's such an awesome, you know, utopian idea to be able to go back and say, yeah, enjoy the ride. But like, I don't know if that's possible when you're on the ride, man. Like, I'm worried if that roller coaster is gonna snap in half at the top, man.

SPEAKER_00

It's like the concert, dude. Enjoy it, but then you're like critiquing yourself the entire time. And like leading up to it, there's probably an anticipatory anxiety a little bit that's like sure, don't suck. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then and then there's some nights where like you're feeling like I'm warming up and I feel great. And that, dude, that does help. Like, I'm like, all right, I'm ready for this show. I'm ready for this show. And those are awesome. But yeah, yeah, I mean, it it's not it maybe there's something happening at home and with family, like you know, there's something else, like there's there's a million things going through my mind up there that's not just necessarily what you're seeing from the state or from uh the ground, and it's um it that's just part of being human, I think. You man, there's I'm so my brain goes everywhere. Like, I'll see somebody in the crowd, and then I'll start thinking of something just completely different while I'm singing a song, and it's like that's happening, but that is not what's happening up here, and it's wild because I'll go back and think on it. I'll see like a yellow shirt and I'll start thinking of like my dad's old yellow MG, like or something like a car. I don't know why it does that, but like something's going on here. It's like autopilot, and then I'm completely over here in another world. And uh I've caught myself doing that so many times. Like, get back, zoom back in, here we go. And but I don't know, that's just the way my I am. It's my brain.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Yeah, you mentioned your dad. Uh how old are you in your dad past?

SPEAKER_03

Uh I was out of call. I was living in call, I think I was 24-ish.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

It's weird. See, I the timelines, I just I'm terrible. I couldn't go blog. I try to just it's all part of a line for me. I'm terrible at going back in ages. Like, I have so many friends they can just tell them exactly what they were, what month. I'm just I guess it inner that shows the industry and how I think about it too. My brain is just like on to the next thing, man. Even when dad died, I was just like, it wasn't a moment where I'm like, I'm gonna remember this date, I'm gonna do this. Like I have it in my calendar so that I can call mom and say, How are you doing today? I won't remember it by myself. Were you guys tied? Yeah, we couldn't have. I mean, my dad was the best in the world. I love my dad more than anything, and I but it was just it's just how I handle that kind of stuff. I don't know. Yeah. My kids will never see my dad. Um, same with my brothers and um or any grandparents. You know, they won't have any grandparents, they'll have one, actually. Um but he's in Canada. And so I mean there's things that that I think about like that. But my dad got to see when I was in bands, like he saw it was right he passed like right when I was just starting to get some traction, like when the Warren Brothers were riding with me and we were just about to go sign a publishing deal. Like he got to see where it was headed. Um But yeah, I mean he I would have loved for him to see a number one, you know, or played a stadium, you know, that kind of stuff for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Was your dad a big musical piece of your life?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, he he played a little guitar, he would sing it, and uh he wasn't he wasn't great, but he just loved singing and playing Almond Brothers BGs, he'd just sit there and learn the chorus. Sorry, man. But uh yeah. I don't know. He wasn't he wasn't anything crazy, but he just loved it. And so I mean he would take me to shows and I was in like rock bands and screaming bands and stuff, and like he like he would even take me to that, even though he hated that music. Like he would let me, he would go and watch that shit. So I appreciated, I appreciated that. I I wish he could have seen that. Hey, I didn't always do that, like I did other stuff. I started writing songs that you would like probably a lot better, but he always he never acted like he didn't. He was still there as a daddy. Same with sports, he was there for every single thing I did, and uh yeah, you know, but it's it's part of it. A lot of people lose their parents. I can't make that my story.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And it's not a victim mentality, it's just part, you know, part of the journey. Yeah, and then there's a resilience and a whole uh shift of your view of the world that comes out of that too. For me, it did. I know for me, I'm like, you know what? Like, what's actually important versus what you thought was important, and then there's a whole new layer of that having the baby, like once you get to know her. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I I mean that's and that's what I'm excited for. Yeah, I mean, that's I'm I'm I'm craving that next chapter, and I can't wait for it. And yeah, and I I was younger when I lost dad, like you know, and that was a lot of anger came from that where like I can handle loss a little better now, you know, as I'm older and things that happen, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Dude, how do you deal with stuff like your part, bro? Because like um my dad died a year ago, January, and like you, yeah, like my dad was my biggest supporter, like same exactly what you said. Music. My dad played guitar. Yeah, nice. He got me into it. Um sports, he came to the all the games and the practices, and then Little League was like one of the assistant coaches or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Well, he tried to coach me once, it didn't work out when we were kids. I remember heads up. But he tried, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but the I I find myself, I don't know, Haley. You could talk about you could you could agree with me that like there's a lot of anger that I have. I think other people probably experienced it. You just said you had it. Is that something you ride out, or is that something that you feel like you learned to deal with?

SPEAKER_03

You could try to ride it out, but it's gonna come out. I mean, that's just the way it is. That's part of being, you know, trying to hold everything and it's just never gonna work.

SPEAKER_00

Um because it comes from sadness, right? Doesn't hurt. Yeah. Hurt or sadness?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, any anything. I mean, everybody's got their own, everybody's got their own stories, trauma. There's no comparing each each other's stuff, but it's like bundling it all up never works. And this industry is such an easy way to like bury that with drinking and drugs and all kinds of crap, and it's just it's just not healthy. And as you get older and you find people that you want to confide in, and like it's just it's it's um it's just a recipe for disaster therapy. I I believe in it now. It's great, it's a great thing. And I it's not necessarily have to go to the to an actual therapist, like having great friends around you to be able to communicate with is great therapy as well. But I think just communicating, I think just being a stubborn man, the way I was raised, granddad, military, just dad, like all the crap he dealt with. He didn't I never saw it, but I know it came out in other ways, and so I think it's important to acknowledge that and realize that and and change and find a healthier way to to be angry.

SPEAKER_00

That's a weird juxtaposition, a healthier way to be angry, but I find myself in it. But uh now you get to be a parent and like figure out you know what kind of dad do I want to be, right? And yeah, that's a uh it's man, the dad I thought I wanted to be versus what I have to deal with with a stubborn three-year-old boy, dude, is very different, man. I'll say that. I believe it. Uh I believe it. But I but it's it's great, man. I'm stoked for you. Um, and to find that out. When I found that out, I was like, it's the greatest gift, man.

SPEAKER_03

I I truly can't wait. Like, I'm I'm ready for it. I want to meet her now.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm sure everybody's talking to you about it and asking you about it, man, because it's one of those things that I guess everybody that's like that's the most non-political thing ever. Like everybody can be excited about a baby. Yes, it's that's it's one of the last remaining like non-political things. Sure. I'm I'll go there with you. Yeah, yeah, dude. I think it's a great thing to have. Artists, managers, labels. Are you looking for a high quality affordable merch item your biggest fans will actually buy? Custom branded merch guitars from the graphic guitar guys are one of the highest grossing tour products, often second only to t-shirts with 300 to 400% markups. They're an easy way to brand specific tours, albums, or a special project, and not offering them leaves real money on the table at any career level. With unbeatable pricing, top-tier quality, fast turnaround times, and hands-on customer service, the graphic guitar guys work with everyone from Stadium Axe to bands touring in a van. Do yourself or your artist a favor and see what the graphic guitar guys can do for you. If you've ever wondered why you see that little Frenchie in every episode of my podcast, it's there for a reason. What I care about here is real conversation, real people, and real human connection. That's why partnering with Studio Bank made sense to me. Their mission is to empower creators, and they say that that little Frenchie is more than just a logo. It's smart, active, adaptable, and a natural companion. Sophisticated but not pompous, rare and one of a kind. That felt like a real fit for this podcast and this show and what I'm all about. And if you're around Music Row, you've probably heard of Studio Bank or know someone that bangs with them, and there's a reason for that. They set out to rethink the typical experience, put people at the center of it, infuse innovative technology with genuine hospitality. Their whole idea is to be uncommonly modern and surprisingly human. That's a big part of why I'm proud to partner with them. They do not make you feel like a number. You get real people, real support, and a team that actually cares about what you're building, whether that's your business, your family, or your future. They also offer immediate ATM fee reversal at any ATM machine in the entire world. That's why a lot of my friends that are on the road bank with them, visit studiobank.com or call 615-338-9998. Let them know Stefan Hogan sent you and see how Studio Bank can serve you today. Studio Bank member FDIC Equal Housing Lender. Um everyone should have more babies. Um, I think that's what I'm tired of podcasting. Yes, absolutely. Everyone should have more babies. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and I've got a little practice with my nieces and my nephew, and I've just loved, you know, I love kids. I love teaching. I love uh people ask if I wouldn't do a music, what I do, I'd love to be a coach for youth. Like, I would love that. Like that, I enjoy seeing people light up and accomplish things they didn't know they could do. Just they just need a little push behind them. I'm like, that's I love that. So I'm excited about that part of being a father. Yeah. Whatever that looks like, whatever she wants to do. I don't care. I won't push her in any way, but whatever she's going towards, I'm gonna pump her up. I'm gonna get her, you know, ready to go for it.

SPEAKER_00

What's uh something that you don't want her to have to experience that you experienced?

SPEAKER_03

Man, I don't know. I just feel like everything that's happened to me is for a reason, to be honest. I don't even know. Like, I I want to protect her from cell phones, to be honest. That's uh that's a I mean that's like as far as a tangible thing, can't protect her from people, you can't protect her from heartache, can't protect her from these things. That's real stuff. I can't protect her for that. But these stupid things, I I think I can find a way, these screens that are just killing everybody. Like, I I want to figure out a way. I don't want her to be like the you know, the weird kid in class and the only one that doesn't have technology, but I don't I can't I don't want her living through this with these fake expectations and just rotting brain. I just hate it. I think it's completely ruining our world. And I'm in a content-driven business. I get it.

SPEAKER_00

Like I totally get it. But you when you started off, it wasn't like that. It was not like that, dude. So you were you're part of the the group of people that got in under the wire. Yeah. And then you had to adapt. How do you deal with it now? Because I'm on still adapting, man. Like, do you have someone that posts for you? Do you post and ghost? What do you like? How does it work?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I'm between Ali and Kristen. Allie does so much for posting on time. Um, and just trying to come up with content that feels not dude, icky and gross and just clickbait, uh you know, trying to find authentic stuff. Um, and like I we've talked, I I think for me, it's like let's just pick a day and create a lot of content and then we can release it throughout because I don't like to think every move I make be like, oh, that should be filmed. That could be a TikTok opportunity. That's not a life I want to be a part of or live. I make that very clear. Uh, I don't want every moment that I'm enjoying in life to be like, man, I should film this now instead of being present. But I do think it's important. I think we should be able to do it. And so I think for me and moving forward, I like the content days. Like, let's create stuff, let's think about it almost as a songwriter. Let's go into a room and let's write and do something, get it done, and then that gives you time to live until the next one. But like living life, thinking about I gotta film every second of it isn't it's not anything that I want to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00

Or that's how I feel and I'm in a world like you where it's like content is king.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00

And everyone's competing for attention. And it's yeah, it's yucky, dude.

SPEAKER_03

It's just fake, it's fake validation, man. Like I I I believe you need to you need to talk to humans face to face and and you know, go to the bar go to the go to losers after a right and communicate with people instead of just diving into a phone and and just watching what everybody is is faking that they did today. Like I just it's just not I don't like that kind of of world, man. I like human interaction and and learning and how to actually react to someone saying something in front of you because you gotta react quick. Like you don't have to react to anything if nobody can see you. So it's I don't I don't think it does really good for us as far as that human connection. I think we're losing that quickly. And uh I just that's the one thing I would want to protect my daughter from.

SPEAKER_00

Do you feel the human connection in the show?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, man, I do. Um I I'm a I'm a I'm a crier. I tear up, I get emotional. I love, I I cry happy um all the time. Like I'm a happy crier. I wish I was that. Yeah, I don't know. It's weird. I it's weird. Like I'm I will, I'll cry with my friends. I'm a I'm a happy crier. Um and I I tear up at shows all the time. Um when I see somebody singing back a lyric with their eyes closed and they're just in the moment, and you're like, dude, I wrote that in a little room, man. Like I have no idea that it would at least make that impact on you. That means so much to me. And um, you know, or when when they're crying, when I play a song about losing dad, like or losing somebody or a bucket list is a big one for us, and I I constantly get people, you know, almost like they're in church, and it's just like that's really cool. And it it always strikes a core for me emotionally for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because the humanity is there in the in the live show because I think about this, and I actually feel like music, live music, art, humanity is the safest of jobs moving forward in this world where everybody doesn't really know what's gonna happen, but is afraid of it and freaked out. And uh they're all like, AI this, AI that, and I feel like the more brain rot and then creates lonely. Lonely creates hunger for connection. Sure. And then we need the connection in a healthy way. The show is a connection, like going and being with a group of people that are singing the lyrics to a song.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we'll we'll seek that out as humans.

SPEAKER_00

It's a hedge, yeah. It's like a your job is so protected, and I feel like songwriters too, even though there's all these like people freaking out about it.

SPEAKER_03

Um we'll we'll figure out a way, we always do. I mean, when the iPod was invented, we were stressing just as much. I wasn't at the age or in the industry yet, but I my grandmother was, and I remember the panic in her voice hearing, how are we gonna make money if people aren't buying mechanical, physical copies anymore? Like, and they figured it out just fine. So I'm not necessarily worried about that. We saw it after COVID, like humans they crave humidity, they came back full force into shows, almost to a point where we went a little ahead of ourselves where we started doing all these stadium shows, and now it's like, oh well, that maybe we we got a little crazier, let's back it back down. And um, I think it always just comes back around, it's it's always rotating, and you know, AI might take a minute for it to catch back up, but humans cre crave community, they're gonna want that, and they come back to it. And I think just like a church or a live performance, like for me, going to shows as a kid was my escape. If it's I'm here with my people, man, we're we're watching this, these bands, and I think that'll never leave.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, and your and your phone, if you had one, was a dumb phone.

SPEAKER_03

I it's fun to think of because like I there was I wasn't when I was growing up falling in love with bands, going to shows all the time. There wasn't this. I mean, that wasn't we didn't have that, and so there wasn't you watch the whole show. Like, I have memories of the whole shows in my head on what they were wearing, you know, like it just how they moved, like when they were like, I'm you know, one of my favorite bands under oath. Like, I would just stare at the keyboard player all night long just because he had the most energy of the entire band. And I just like instead, I just this wasn't in front of you, it was just heads. Sometimes we're taller dudes, but you know, like I didn't have that yet. Now it's just you get these hands up and these phone lights, and it's you know, it's it's cool. It's like cool, but like, dude, just in just enjoy the moment, man. You're never Gonna go back and watch that crap you just filmed on your phone. Like, I don't, I don't.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm very intentional about not pulling out the phone at a concert. I might like take one picture and then I put it away.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sure. As a memory, oh man, I remember that stage set up. Like, I like I'm I'll do it too, but I'm just saying, like a constant filming of the entire thing. It's like uh it doesn't bother me on stage. Like, I'm not one of those artists like put your phone down. Like, I'm not like that at all. Film all you want. Sure, sure. It's you're you're you're here. I'm not like that, but I'm just like for me, I don't I want to hear the songs, I want to fall in love with something that's happening over here and then immediately turn over here and look at the other you know, player playing. I don't know. I like to see it as like a movie, but Under Oath was my jam. Heck yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00

They're all Aaron just signed with uh Leslie DePiro's company. Yep. I wonder what he's up to, what he's doing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, he's crazy. We write all the time. Um, he's awesome. He's writing country music. Um, we did we put out a song together last year, me, him, and Spencer or two years ago, maybe. I don't know. Um, on my record, I did it with Underoath. I got to scream with Spencer and Aaron. We did a whole music video. It was well, the first time I wrote with Aaron, probably four years ago or so. I remember I got in the room and I said, Look, I've we just gotta get this out of the way. If you catch me staring at you, like I promise I'm not weird. Uh and after the day, we'll be boys, but like you're one of my heroes in music, dude. Like, I've played drums in a band because of you. Like, I wanted to, and he he's so kind about it, and you know, and does his Aaron thing. Now we're like super close friends. We text all the time, and it's just weird because that was like one of my biggest influences as a kid to play music and star bands was that band and him, and to get to do something with him and do that. That was really cool for me, man. That was awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, dude. Under Earth was my high school playlist, and I was listening to it all the time and learning the chords. Oh, yeah. Uh yeah, dude. What's the record with the mask on it? The like only chase only chasing safety. Yeah, that was my that was the one for me.

SPEAKER_03

The other day he gave me, we were writing, and uh, I was like, that plaque is so sick. It's a silver, it's a silver record. He goes, That's uh the where they only gave us 10 of those. That's the original printing of that record. And he goes, You take it. And he handed it to. I was like, There's no way I'm taking this, bro. He goes, No, put it in your studio. I know how much you love this record. When during COVID, before I knew Aaron, he was making money uh drawing out the lyrics to like reinventing your exit. And I bought them. I I literally bought them. I sent a DM. I was like, man, I just like, can I get one of those? I sent him a hundred bucks. And like before I even knew him or anything, and I remember I told him about that when we first met, and he just knows I'm a massive fan, and I will tear a shapque forever, dude. It's going right up in my studio.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, what a what a cool story, man. Yeah, man. That says a lot about the people in this business.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, for sure. And he is that's everything you want from your heroes, and then them become your friends. It's like that was one of the ones where I'm glad I met him. Because sometimes you don't want to meet your heroes, but I'm glad I met them, and it's been an awesome inspiration for me the last few years to get that outlet out too and to write that kind of music.

SPEAKER_00

What are you most stoked on right now?

SPEAKER_03

Well, besides the baby and all that, I I'm stoked on um, you know, I I I've been really enjoying this headline tour. It's been a minute. We've gotten been so uh blessed to open up for some of the biggest artists in the world and get to do all that, but there's nothing like headline tours, and I'm just stoked to keep it going. I've really had a lot of fun recently playing live music again. And again, it's not that I don't have fun, it's just this is the most fun. When it's your crowd, your thing, you can do whatever you want. It's um that does help, and it's fun to be coming back around to that. So I'm stoked on that. But I am, I mean, I think, dude, the the biggest thing is I'm stoked on putting wallpaper up for a nursery and like doing that. That's a whole different thing. And then I got my studio. I've always dreamed of owning a studio like I'm building right now since I was a kid. I've built so many studios to the fact that I've met my investor building a studio, but I've never had one that I've always wanted, and we're about a month out on it, and I cannot wait to see what comes, um, you know, creative creativity-wise, and just new songs, everything from having my dream studio finally.

SPEAKER_00

Um I can't wait, man. That's exciting. So in your house?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, separate. I built a barn barnuminium with a side, like all hang area, pool table, golf simulator, and then the studios on the left side of it, control room, uh-huh, split with a drum room, like everything I've ever wanted. And we got, you know, we can fish out there, we can go hunt, we can do whatever. I want people to come out and enjoy the day and let's write a song and create instead of just boxing ourselves in all the time.

SPEAKER_00

How many acres are you on?

SPEAKER_03

Uh, 10 acres, but backs out to uh you know, thousands of property that will never be sold. It's all woods, and I just I love it, man. So I'm really excited to see what comes out of that new that new space to create in.

SPEAKER_00

That's so exciting. That's my dream. Because we're on six acres and it goes, it all goes out to just land. Yeah, I love it, man. It's like a hundred plus acres of just whatever. It's perfect. And the guy that owns it hunts out on the land. But um, my barn dominium dream is like to have a podcast studio out there. Sure, yeah. Something, you know, same idea.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm gonna do something like that too, where you got a wall where I can do content. Like, same, like I I want to make it where it's easy and organic and like it just feels like you you have every paintbrush you need and every color uh right at your hand.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like I've always wanted to set up, ready to go. Absolutely, and you can record any time a day or night.

SPEAKER_03

Anytime I want like that is something I've been wanting a long time, man, and finally getting to do it.

SPEAKER_00

So when it comes to the creative process, like over the last 10 years, how has it changed for you? How do you go into songwriting? Do you feel like your blade's been sharpened on the songwriting end extremely to the point where you are like, I can craft a commercial hit song?

SPEAKER_03

I I think that, yeah, I mean, there's the formula that I definitely know well. And if I if everybody else lines up the lines up the right way, yeah, you can write a song today and put it in the right way, but everybody it's gonna take everybody doing that job. Like, there's a million great songs, but you're never gonna hear them. It takes it takes the avenue and the lanes to get it out to the world in the correct way.

SPEAKER_00

What is that? The avenue and the lane.

SPEAKER_03

Uh I mean, well, a lot of it's money, priority, time. I mean, you know, getting it into the where people can hear it and uh hear it over and over instead of just swiping to the next song, like you gotta be on the floor, like, you know, playlisting, radio, like the things that really, you know, just keep people attached. But also, if you're talking about the formula, that's what I'm saying. Like, if you're writing for the formula, you need all that. If you're not writing for the formula and you just have something that's weird and crazy and it just will work organically, that's the dream, and that's you don't need any avenue for that. That's the community talking and spreading the word like a like a virus in a good way. That's America being the AR. That's right. And I I want that again. That's what chose my song, Truth About You, to be honest. The label did not like that song, and uh they didn't think it was it worth anything, and America said it was, and it became our single and went all the way to the top. Um, and that was the power of social media during COVID. And I so I don't hate it all, but it's uh there's no better feeling than the world picking it, not the label. Like that is way way better as an artist. You feel a lot of people. So you trust your gut.

SPEAKER_00

You trusted your gut and went with what you knew versus what they knew.

SPEAKER_03

Uh, in that moment, yeah, because I didn't know we have anything to lose. They told us our jobs weren't important. Not the label, the world that or they shut us down. Yeah, yeah. I had nothing to lose. Um, I enjoy that nothing to lose mentality, uh, staying naive, not knowing. I'm trying to go back to that as far as I can. I'm listening to old songs and be like, man, I remember I wouldn't I would never write that today because I'm not supposed to, but God, that was so cool. Let's do that again. Like, I the staying naive is important. Um, it's very important to making great music, and we're that's what I want to do in my new studio. I want to be naive.

SPEAKER_00

Can you destruct naive?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_03

It's not knowing any better, not no rules, like, but confident. Like going go going in saying, I got this, but then like the weight being too heavy, and so you've just figured out a way to lift it. Maybe you grab, you know, you get another guy to help you out, or another friend, or you just figure out a way to get it done, but without the the way it's supposed to be done. It's like my I have a buddy, his name's Johnny, I love him. If we're working on a project together, we both want the same outcome, but he's in a completely different world of how to get there, and I'm over here. I think that's naive. I'm thinking of, okay, well, this is how the book would do it, and he's gonna, you know, take the longer route, but it's it's brilliant, and I love that. And that's how that's how you are before you get signed and you get into the business. You're like, I don't know the right way to do this, but I'm gonna get it done. And I think that's important, man. Gotta get back to that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm quite interested in that. I just had Russia Gaston on from Sony. Oh, he's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And like they're a hit factory for you know, and um so many writers writing every day on pub deals for years, thousands of songs. And I mean, you've been part of this industry, and the amount of songs you've written it probably is you wouldn't even be able to know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh there's that part of me that's very curious about the writing process where you're in a headspace where you're writing for someone else, or you're in a headspace where you're writing for yourself, or you're in a headspace where you're doing what you just talked about, which is try to lift some heavy weight you don't even know how to like get it and be naive and write from a position of being naive. Because I think about, and you might agree with this, but like songs that I tried to write when I was like 15, they were the most pure songs I've ever written in my entire life. Yeah, and then something happens when you get to I'm writing with a publishing deal, you know, and then it completely changes, and now it's not this beautiful little naive thing where you don't know the rules, right? You don't know, you're just like love and dove rhyme, and I so I'm gonna do that, right? Correct, and and it's cool, and it's cool, dude. And then you come over here and there's this like pendulum from like naive to commercial, and then all of a sudden you hit this one, and it's almost like uh now it needs to swing back the other way. Yeah, I think how far between like the young versus the commercial hit are you? Where are you in that meter?

SPEAKER_03

I'm trying to go the young, I'm trying to go the opposite way again. I think the problem with Nashville right now is songwriters are writing for other songwriters, and they're not writing for the listeners. What do you mean by that? Trying to impress uh just trying to every word and every phrase and everything needs to be so perfect and boom, boom, boom. And it's like and clever, and it's like, dude, you're just writing for the other the guy in the room. The guy that's gonna listen to this that lives in Arkansas isn't gonna give a shit about that. He's gonna give a shit about the story, excuse my language, sorry, but I just like I'm so tired of like, no, man. Well, we said we said this word in the first verse, we can't say it over here. I'm like, why not? Or man, that's the same melody. I'm like, iris is the same melody in the verse and the chorus, and you're telling me that song is not great, and I'd give up forever, and uh dumm. It's the same melody, yeah, it's just up and octave. And you're arguing me right now on something that feels great because you said the rules are you can't do the same melody twice. Why? There's three choruses, you're already doing it three times. I I start arguing these days with people. I'm like, who told you that rule? This is frustrating. I don't like like we're not writing a great song right now. We're writing a paper. Like you're you're writing a paper in English class. Like, let's write a song. And I'm tired, I'm really getting frustrated with that. So when you're asking, like, are we writing for me or are we writing for somebody else? Like, I can go with the artist, but if you're writing for me, why are you holding this up? Like, that's not like that's not what I'm concerned with. That's not what translates to my fans. Like, stop. You're you're ruining the day.

SPEAKER_00

So, what are you looking for when you're writing for you?

SPEAKER_03

Easy. I want it to be easy, I want it to flow, and I want it to be done in two hours because those are the best songs. If we overthink it, I've already written every version of what you're thinking right now because I've been writing for 20 years of my life. It's not where you're not, nothing's gonna pop up that's gonna be more clever. It's just gonna be more just just not great. Like, let's just let's like how we're having a conversation right now, and they always say, Yep, what was your first guess? Put that down as your answer. Write that way again. That's how we were saying, dove rhymes with love. Like, just write it instead of sitting here writing for for your other songwriters that don't they're not gonna buy your record. I think we gotta relate again, man. And um, I the formula really has gotten to me a lot over the last few years. It's just like I've done it, tired of writing the same song every day. And so, like, if I'm writing for me, I'll just grab my best friends because then I can be the most vulnerable. Um, I do love writing with new people I've never written with. I do love that because you get something you don't never had, and sometimes you work out and they become your new people you want to write with all the time. But hopping into a room with three new people and they're like, All right, what do you need today? I I don't need you today. Like, I need you, I don't need you for me today, all ominous aside. I need you to want to write a great song today, too. And I'll cut that if it feels like me, or we'll pitch it. But I hate the box of what do you need today? It's like, what do you mean? I don't understand that. Like, I don't if you're if if you're an artist that needs that today, yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's like there's these unspoken rules in Nashville songwriting, and I've experienced this because I would say I'm on the greener side of the songwriting thing. And so if I go in and I get paired up on co-writes at some publishing company, it's like these guys will be like, Yeah, I could see why that song that you wrote wasn't commercial, and then if we rewrite it, then it all of a sudden has these like rules that you're talking about in it, sure, and like clever things and all this stuff, and it to me is like okay, cool. And then I send it back to the same publisher that said it wasn't whatever, and then they're like, Yeah, I don't, I don't, it doesn't hit me or whatever, and it's like one person's opinion, yeah. And I've sent the same song to five publishers before it and got five different answers and five different opinions, and we're in such an opinion-based industry, and you talked about following your gut and fighting the label, or maybe not fighting, but disagreeing with them on what's gonna be what's gonna go to radio is gonna be your number one, which is if it was a number one. So I guess that all comes to people just want something that's authentic and they can see through they can see through it.

SPEAKER_03

And if you're passionate about as an artist, it's gonna sell better because they're gonna see you, your passion. Like I said, that song you sent. If you if Luke Combs sang it, it's gonna be a hit because he's gonna make you believe it. If Shea Mooney sang, it's gonna sound good. Like, it's not about the song, it's just about do you do you want to ride with me? Do you want to come ride with me? Let's take this, hop it on, let's take this drive together. But everybody wants an opinion, acting like they're the reason the song works. It the song works if you force it to work, you can do it that way too, but also it works if people believe the singer singing it. And so, like the conversation, well, this verse could change here. This like, what are you talking about, dude? Like, if if an artist, if a great artist sung this, it would work no matter what. So, like, quit quit like just if somebody believes in a song, let's go with that. That's your best tool, is having the artist believe in something.

SPEAKER_00

This is legalities, but I'm like hearing you talk about that makes me feel like you got this Rick Rubin vibe about you or something. And I'm like, you like there's almost a love of music for the sake of love of music, not trying to chase something, but like think about the audience last, think about you first.

SPEAKER_03

I I I try to do both, man, because I do I do want the audience to experience something fun. And I'm not I'm not the kind of writer where it's like all everything's metaphor, you can take it however you want it. Like, I like to write like here's the story. And sometimes you can be like, oh, this can mean one to two things, but you know it means when it's so you like it literal. I don't like, yeah, I don't like ab. It's not I'm saying I like it. There's great songs for abstract that I do love, but yeah, you're not gonna full Bob Dylan over here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

You know, we do we and I'm just like, I love it's closed. I like this guy. I like literal, I like literal, I like produced music, I like um it's just what I like. It's what I like to write. And that's not a right or wrong way. Other people do great things, but that's just I want to make no uh there should be no doubt what I'm talking about when when it comes to me. Like you know where the story is. Um, and I've written all over the spectrum, man. I mean, I've tried everything, formula to wacky, and you know, he's just throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks.

SPEAKER_00

But uh what's the song you're most proud of?

SPEAKER_03

Well, it's hard not to say the you know, something like drunk me where you take a risk on that um and you say this is my song and it changes your life. Um, but I think from like proud of like are the ones that you know are really about me, like you know, Walk Eye Cam is about my dad, losing my dad, you know, Mama Raised the Hell on Me is about my mom. Like the personal ones that are truly about me, I I'm glad that I got those out because there's a lot of me that doesn't want to release those songs because it's like, well, nobody's gonna relate to that because it's not their dad, it's not their mom, but I'm massively surprised that those are the ones that are most relatable. I think people insert themselves into whatever scene it is, it doesn't have to be you know specific, like their life. To me, all it takes is one lyric in a song, and I love the song. Like if that one lyric was a part of my life, then I love the song. The whole rest of the song doesn't have to match up to my life. And so I I remind myself of that sometimes. I'm like, just write what feels right. Because we all like to put ourselves in the song.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and a good song makes you see yourself.

SPEAKER_03

I know, man. I used I loved I used to love daydreaming to songs. Like I'd create a movie in my head where you're the hero and you're just like you're walking around like and everybody's watching you on the TV screen with that song in the background music. Like I used to think that way, and that's how I like to write songs almost cinematically. Um, it's it's it's a weird way to put it, but that's like like even under oath, like I'd picture myself being like, oh my gosh, we gotta go save the world. Here we go, and that song's in the background and all the drum hits and stuff, or you like I just see that I see the full vision of the songs that way, and it makes them so much cooler to me.

SPEAKER_00

And uh so it's cinematic, like as if you're almost like writing a score for a sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I I I that's how my head works. Like if I get lost in a song, especially that makes me love a song, like I'll put myself or a friend or something, and I'll create the story with the song as a score. And I love to watch that, like I'll someone it's just a movie plan in your head, and I I love I think that's my favorite part about enjoying music that way.

SPEAKER_00

I think you've made me really think about um that uh naivete versus I always say it wrong, naivete, that's it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, naive, what I don't even know if I said it wrong. It's just being fancy. So being naive versus being like super deep into the commercial thing, which you could pop out a song like that. Yeah, and then snapping back and snapping back and being like, hey, because I know a writer in town, I ran into her and she was like, I was like saying something about what I was learning as the rules from these hitmakers, and she was like, Why not say it twice? Like that was exactly what you said, doesn't but where it like she got to the point where she was like, I'm like nauseated by this has to be this way thing. Yeah, and uh I think that's cool and kind of a fun insight and interesting because the people that listen to this podcast, a lot of them are in the industry, and I think they're all chasing the elusive um you know, hit or whatever. What's your piece of advice to the person that wants to pursue the career in the music business when draws or like your first draw is like 30 grand and you can't live off of it? Yeah. And if you're a guitar player for somebody, you could get dropped at any time and you're not getting paid great. And if you want to buy a house someday, like things look bleak financially to me when it comes to the music business, unless you've been able to have number ones and then those are rigid, which you kind of have to have these days. Um what's what's your piece of advice to the to the young generation that are trying to do this thing, but they also see some of the realities of the fiscal side.

SPEAKER_03

I think you gotta be crazy, man. Like you gotta be crazy. You gotta not worry about that. Or like we've already talked about going full circle. If you're worried about that, it ain't gonna work. You're gonna get fired, or you're not gonna write the great stuff. Like, I think you just gotta have a little bit of crazy in you, man, and that not have a plan. Like having a plan at the beginning is the worst idea ever. Like it's it's the worst idea. Did you have a plan? No, I still don't. I don't know what's going on. Just enjoying whatever opportunity you get. This town is full of opportunities about if you take them and which ones you want to take. And as you get further along, you can kind of play with which ones you want to take, but at the beginning you should take them all. And you should be I always say more important than the song or the guitar playing or whatever. Being a great person, being somebody people want to be around is so important as far as networking and just and that sending your career into a chance that might work, you've got to be someone people want to surround themselves with. That's first, just be a good person. Not that hard. You'll fail. You're a human. We're all humans. But if if you're 99% of the time a good human being, it's that's gonna get you further than being a great guitar player that's an asshole. Or a great singer that just nobody wants to be around. It's none of that matters. Everyone in town's great, everybody can play. Set yourself apart by being kind. I think that's important. Be kind and crazy, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

Kind and crazy. I love that, man. Well, thank you so much for coming all this way. I really enjoyed that. Thank you. Being on the podcast. And uh I've been a fan since I heard I heard Drunk Me. Thank you. So I uh try Yeah, I was I I was listening to you on the way over here this morning, and um it was just cool to hear what what you've been doing, and I'm excited for you on your headline tour. And I think it's cool too, because like you mentioned earlier, there's something about playing a certain size room where it's not too big, but it's not too small, and you can still kind of like make out the person in the back a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_03

That's my favorite thing in the world is that yeah, clubs anywhere from like a thousand to three thousand venues are there, that's the best.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and there's this energy in that in that that's what music's supposed to be about.

SPEAKER_03

It's cool as crap to play in front of a stadium arena, it's cool, but like you're there's no connection there, and they don't like it either. You're not enjoying the show from the nosebleeds, man. Like, you just spend a lot of money. Let's bring it back, do more clubs, do three nights in a row, 3,000. Yeah, I think if you could do that, like that, that's like the dream, man, for me. Um and I just I'm having the time of my life again playing live music, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_00

How can we support you, Mitchell?

SPEAKER_03

I don't know, go to live music, go to a show, come see what we do. I would love to see you. Our tickets aren't crazy. I promise we're we're still affordable, and I would just love to see you at a show. Come see what that looks like. My guys put in a lot of work every day and they're awesome, and we've really tightened our set. We I just it's live music and we're having a good time doing it. Come see that real, raw, authentic joy. And um, I think that would, you know, we'll start there and then spread the word, man. If you like it, spread the word. If you hate it, spread the word. It doesn't matter. Like that would be awesome to get the chance. I want I just would love for you to have a chance to see it.

SPEAKER_00

Mitchell Timpenny, it's been a pleasure. You too, brother. Good to meet you. Uh yeah. You good? Is there anything I need to hit? Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Sweet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

No, thank you, brother. I really enjoyed that, man.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you for having all this way. Of course, man. What's your what you got there? Is that a Hamilton? Yeah. That's a beautiful piece. Yeah, that's a beautiful piece. Yeah, I mean, we we partner with them. I just I think their watches are great. They've hooked up all my guys.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but Chris is Chris, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm a nerd, man. I'm I love them, and that's that's like a blue chrometer.

SPEAKER_03

Um yeah, I've got a it's a tut yeah, it's a two it's a tutor. I got that one for the baby. Yeah. I love the patina on the on the dialogue.