The Stephan Hogan Podcast

The Lost Art of Reinventing Yourself - Ben Montague

• Stephan Hogan

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At some point, the dream changes. Ben Montague started as a musician chasing songs, shows, and the artist life. Then he found himself driving through the night after gigs, windows down just to stay awake, so he could open his guitar shop the next morning.

That was the crossroads.

Today, Ben owns Carter Vintage Guitars and Norman’s Rare Guitars. But the real story is not about guitars. It is about being able to shift gears and follow a new dream. 

In this episode, Ben opens up about music, business, private equity, family pressure, acquiring Carter Vintage and Norman’s Rare Guitars, and the emotional cost of building something meaningful.

This one is for musicians, creatives, founders, business owners, guitar lovers, and anyone who knows they may be standing at a turning point. 

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Email: contact@mavericksmediaco.com

Filmed in Nashville, TN
Produced: Stephan Hogan
Mavericks Media Co. Production

SPEAKER_00

I went to my sort of hotel, motel, got up, fell asleep, got up at three in the morning, got in my car, and I drove down to work. And I remember driving down, windows down, trying to stay awake. We were having this same conversation. And um it was like a switch just went. And I went, I'm done. The lessons that you learn at the darkest times of business are the lessons that will shape the way you are as an entrepreneur, will shape the way you are as a boss, as a leader. Assumption without fact is misleading. He does not text normally, doesn't he? He does not like to text. Um and I remember Tech saying, just so grateful to have watched that documentary with you back in 2018 at your head. Congratulations. And he immediately picked the phone, called me. And I was channeling, he was like, hey man, you know, we're still I'm still looking. And I was like, I'll be there in a week. You asked me what was the hardest thing of that whole period. See my wife cry every night because of uncertainty. That was the hardest thing. Because she um welcome back to the Stephan Hogan podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Today I'm sitting down with Ben Montague, who is the founder of Teenag Global. He owns Harder Vintage Guitars, where I'm currently standing in the case room, and he also owns Norman's Rare Guitars, the two most famous guitar stores in the world. And I would also add prestigious. We're gonna talk about everything from starting a business, being a musician, learning a business, and how he got from being in the UK to being here in the United States. You're gonna love this, and please hit subscribe because that helps the channel greatly. Subscribe, like, share, and here is Ben Montague. What I'm interested about, and I think other people are too. You basically acquired a bunch of people's legacies.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, not a bunch, but the most influential, arguably. And Norman Drigger guitars, there's that cool Netflix documentary, and there's all these people in it talking about, you know, when norm's gone, like it's not gonna be the same, you know. They talk about it, and I was like, man, if I was Ben and I watched this, I think part of me would almost like hurt a little bit, like being being put in that position, being pressure because people are saying that norms is only norms because of norm, which is true. It is, but but we also don't live forever, and it's a reminder that nothing's permanent. So I'm curious what it's like stepping into that position and not only acquiring norms, but acquiring Carter vintage guitars as well. I have to imagine that that legacy and that stewardship feeling is the same.

SPEAKER_00

It is, it is, and you're you're not it's funny because I was asked that before. It's like you're not stepping into shoes, you could never step into those shoes. It would, you know, you're you're trying to continue the legacy that they built, and you're trying to make it continue for the staff, for the customers, for the instruments. Um but it's funny, man. I actually sat with Norm in 2022 in his house with his wife and their dogs. I've got these little dogs. And he was like, I want to show you the documentary. And I was like, okay, and I'm thinking, documentary? Like, what posted on his TV and we sat there and it's you know it was an hour and a half long. Sat there watching it. I was crying at the end of it, and I'm like, there's this guy here that I'm talking about potentially buying his business, and I'm like seriously kind of like trying to not show how emotional it it is. And um throughout the whole of it, there's a couple of some people we some friends of ours we were just talking about, you know, they're like it's never gonna be the same without norm. And um I was watching that thinking this brand cannot go away. And it's the same feeling I had here. It's like it you can they cannot go away. You know, you have to continue, and they but they go from being, and this is you know, it goes from being a brand with a face to a faceless brand, if that makes sense. So you so you the the the owners, the founders are you know, you you you think of Walter and Chris and you see them, you think of you know Norm, you see him. Um but then uh my job I guess is to you know build a foundation with an amazing team of people. And that's the that is the core of the brand. And then you know, it's there's always there's always people on the camera, like there's a lemo, or we got a guy called Nick who does a lot of our our content or Keith. Um but it's just about continuing that legacy so that people know that they can come and get the same thing that they got from bought from Carter's or from Norm's back in the 70s, they can get it now, you know. Not that Wil Walter and Christie had Carter's in the 70s, but Norm did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. It's not I think that what you said is so good, like I'm not filling their shoes and then and then recognizing that. But who is Ben Montague? Because I think that there's a curiosity because it's like, yeah, who's this guy? Who is this guy? And I would like to just like regress in the rewind the the pat go to the past, and because you grew up in the UK, and will you kind of walk me through like some of these seminal moments in your life in the UK growing up, getting into music, pursuing music, and then to how it led you into the business world?

SPEAKER_00

Um well, quite a musical family. My dad was always playing and singing, he was in bands when he was younger. There's always guitars around the house. I always just loved singing. Like I I was one of those kids that just sang all the time. Um quite sporty as well, I guess. Did you play cricket? I didn't play cricket, I did play cricket. Yeah, yeah. I played cricket and I was not very good at it. I was more of a I was more of a soccer. I would say football, but I was more of a soccer guy. Um but yeah, picked up the guitar and you know, grew up listening to The Stones or Cream, Clapton, whatever. And um I can still actually remember being in my dad's car, and one of the first songs I can ever remember hearing was Pinball Wizard by the Who. I don't know why that's just like in my brain. 16, 17, started a band and did that and came out of school, went to university, spent more time in a band than I did at university than anything else, touring. Did you graduate? I mean like just I mean like by the skin of my teeth. Um I was always, always, always doing a gig. Well, I had this my first band, so we were always in a you know someone's car or someone's truck driving up and down doing gigs. Um, and then when I left university, went to work in London, did a whole bunch of different jobs working in London. But music was the thing that I wanted. I was like, I want to be a musician, I want to be a singer songwriter, my band, and I wanted to, I was the front man of this band, I wanted that to work out. Um nearly had a couple of deals with them, didn't quite work out, and then I did my own thing for a while. Songwriting. In fact, I started writing music with this guy called Tom Howe. I was talking about this literally the other day, who I wrote songs in his parents' attic. And um, I would turn up at his house after work or on the weekend, we'd write a song together. He's now gone on to be this insane um music film scorer. He wrote all the all of the music for Ted Lasso, and he's written all the music for British Bake Off, and he's a phenomenal instrument. But we went down the songwriting thing for many years. Um and then about 20, when I was about 24, I started my own company because I was realized if I want to do music, I kind of I I knew I needed to make money. I knew that it was it was not just about making money, it was more about like I knew I needed to be my own boss. Because if I was working, I it was I thought I w if I can work and I can do something that makes me money and I can be my own boss on my own time frame, then I can still do music because the music was the priority. I wanted to be a songwriter, I wanted to be an artist. And so I did that for for a bunch of uh, you know, so I set up an events company, believe it or not. And I was running running around London doing that for a while, and then um in 2007, and I was doing all right doing that, you know. That's I think you kind of had that entrepreneurial thing. Music all musicians are entrepreneurs, all musicians are entrepreneurs, you know. I really feel I really feel quite strongly about that. Um and um yeah, then my my manager who was I started working with this guy called Tom, whose dad was um Mike Rutherford's who was he was his dad was Mike Rutherford from Genesis, and so he one day came to me and said, Hey, there's this lady called Whitney Dane, who's still a great friend of mine here, and she was working for a company called Cobalt, which was a new publishing company, and they've heard one of your songs and they want you to come out to Nashville, and I was like, Oh my gosh, they're coming out to Nashville. So I came out here in 2007. This is a long story in a very short period of time, but I I came out here in 2007 and I worked with Dennis and Gary and a whole bunch of people. I had a week, I had four four days here, and then I went to New York. Sorry, went to New York and I worked with um uh Tony Bruno and Aaron Elbano and a couple of other guys, and every single one of them were like, you should come back. You should come back to America and you should make a record. So I was like, great. So I went back, I stopped my events company. I was like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna make the leap of faith. So I sold everything I had, got a plane ticket, came to Nashville for a I was here for the whole trip was three months, and I did a month here, I did three weeks in New York, three weeks in LA, and then came back to Nashville and finished Denton. This is like Were you married yet? No, no, no. Okay, no, I was like 26 at the time, 26, 27. So I was quite old actually, you think about how young artists are when they're starting out. Um but it was kind of like thing, and then I wrote a I wrote my first record here, then I went back to the UK, did the gigging thing for a while, and raised some money through friends and family and put a record together, and then that record got Radio 2, which is BBC Radio 2 is quite a big radio station in the UK, and I got um uh Record of the Week, which is a which is uh kind of an accolade they have on uh BBC Radio 2 uh with a song called Haunted, which is a track that I've written with a guy called Jamie Hartman, he's an amazing songwriter, phenomenal songwriter. And um it's funny, I still have friends of mine now that are um that are incredibly successful songwriters that live here. I met like John Green here and um Dennis and a bunch of other guys. Um and yeah, so I basically I did then I did the touring thing for a while, and then I signed with a with a you know with a label um which was an indie called N U Music N-U-I-S-I-C, Music Sounds, uh, which went through EMI services. So your music career was basically doing the natural progression. It was, I mean, it really was, and I was like, and it's I just I believe in like you are you have to be all in. And it's probably I'm probably not right, but for me, my feeling was like you have to be all in. And that was what I wanted to do with with with music. So I came back from from America, we put this record together, worked with a couple of great producers, and we started getting radio play. We were like, yeah, we were on national radio, I was doing radio tours and doing support, a lot of support slots. One of which was Joe Bonomasi, one of which was Joe Bonomasi, yeah. Um, and um yeah, I can still remember he was the the first big tour support I ever did. It was a venue called The Sage in Newcastle. And I remember being so uh petrified because I was supporting him. And I'm not a great guitar, I'm a singer songwriter, I'm not a great guitar player, right? I can get around it. But um he came into my dressing room and he he'd already come to a gig of mine and said, Yeah, he'll do something because we shared the same agent, and um guy called Neil O'Brien, and um he came into my dressing room and I had a hummingbird that Gibson had lent me because I didn't I couldn't actually afford to buy my own. I had like a no, I didn't have a decent touring guitar, so Gibson lent me this guitar. And um he came in and was like, Oh, I've got I've got a couple of these, and he came and he played it and was like, good luck. And I was like, Good luck, yeah. I was like, good luck, have a great show. And I went on stage, and I remember being there on my own with like a you know, a foot stomper and a tuner, and thinking there's like 1,500 people in this beautiful theatre, and it was just dead silent, and you have that moment where you're like, if I wanted to, now is when I drop the guitar and I run off stage, or I'm just gonna go for it, and there's that leap of faith where you go for it. And um, so I did that, and then um throughout all of this, the kind of thread is that I'd always been buying and selling guitars. I mean, I'd always been, I was telling you about when I came to London to pay rent, I sold my J200. So I'd always been doing that, and we'd always had the love of the instrument running through our family. So um, yeah, so I did the music thing, and then around 2010 is when we set up a company called the North American Guitar, and I set up with my dad, and it was a hobby. I mean, it was like I was endorsed by this guy called Patrick Eggle, who's a great British luthier, and so we just found this love of like the boutique builders, and um and so for two years I was touring a lot. It was it was a hobby kind of business, and then I came out of my deal, didn't get some radio play, you know, the same old story.

SPEAKER_01

Came out of the deal, got challenging there, and then so when was the time because we were talking earlier about you doing these gigs coming home.

SPEAKER_00

Was that in the States or that it was No, no, that's that was coming, that's coming.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I started the to in 2012 is when I came out of my record label. Okay. And that was a pretty wasn't pleasant. Um and I was like, right, I'm gonna concentrate on selling guitars. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna keep doing that. Because you had a shop already. We know we didn't, we had like, I mean, it was not even a quarter of this room. It had like two guitars on the wall. So you can recall it a shop. But I had a guy called Michael that I worked with, and um I was like, right, we're gonna sell guitars, we're gonna go one guitar at a time, and we're you know, we're gonna bring as many as we can on consignment, and we're gonna, you know, buy and sell. And so we just slowly started building the store. And um with for the next sort of like three, four years, we kind of built a little bit of a customer base, but I wasn't doing music anymore, and the bug was still very much kind of there. Um, and then I was like, right, I'm gonna put a record together. So I put another record together with this guy called Peter Tessie. I did a crowdfunding thing where you raise money through your your audience. Um, and then I did a continue to do a lot of touring. So I was working, as I mentioned earlier to you, I was like working five days a week in the shop trying to build a business. Um, and then on the side, I was gigging wherever I could gig. Um I would do like house concerts, I would I played in airports, I mean, I played everywhere. Anybody that would pay me a buck to do it, I would go and do it. Um and then in 2016, no 2015, sorry, I had put a record together. So I was doing the guitars, selling the business, you know, I was kind of starting to get a little bit of traction. Um, but I was in two camps still. Do you know what I mean? I was still I was doing that to kind of pay the rent, but I was still wanting to do the artist artist thing. Um and then in 2015, I put a record together. I had an agreement with a radio plug where I put two s three songs out, two songs flopped, didn't get any radio play. And this I I'm so detached from what the music industry is like now, so it's probably so different than it is it was back then. But this is a true story. I had not been on radio for like six years, literally. And I'd had like maybe one or two spot plays. Um and I had one song left, and this uh my radio plugger who I was like she was like, you know, the albums come out, it's not really done anything, the singles didn't do anything, so go away, make another record. I was like, No, no, no, you we agreed I'd have three singles, so you've got to there's one more song I'd like you to go to radio with. And she said, Um, she's like, Yeah, you know, what's gonna happen with it? And I was like, You that's the agreement, you've got to try, you know, to do it. And she went to um the radio pluggers, went to the um producers of radio 2 that day and called me back and she said, one of the producers is interested, but you've got to do a remix. So I was like, fine. So I called up the songwriter, guy called Jez Ashurst. Funnily enough, I met in Nashville. Did you want all this backstory? You you want just keep that's fine, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Keep going. I mean, yeah, what I'm curious about is how you got because like that like you have this musical career, right? Yeah. And this is this huge piece of who you are. It is. It's like this is your you said you were all in. Yeah, all in. You're all in 100%. Yeah. And you would just have to kind of throw caution to the wind and just go for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so that's so that's so so that night. Sorry, I broke that chain of things.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's fine. I'm it's like you go all in so hard on this thing, right? And it's interesting because we'll get to it, but you're on the business side now. Yeah. So it's like before the business bin ever existed, well, you were a business bin back then, but more so now, probably than you were then. So um business bin versus like less business bin, the musician. Like, when was this when was the defining moment? Because you were telling me earlier about that story. So this is it. I want to hear, I want you to tell me that story.

SPEAKER_00

This is it. And it was like, so we had this song, and she and and Jez mixed it that night. I left the shop, went to his studio, did some back-in vocals, went to work the next day. We emailed the song to the plugger, Coco Claire. And that day it was, you know, played on radio too. There was no there was no marketing, there was no, there was nothing, there was no money behind it. It was just one last song to throw against the wall. And um it kind of it got it got radio played. It was rec it got record all the week. There's a song called We Start Over. And um fitting title. Yeah, and you know what the funny thing about it is the lyrics are all about the moment that I'd put the phone down from my record label and I knew that I was dropped. It was like I dropped the phone, and it was about me and my now wife talking about that, you know, you pick yourself up and you start over. Um and it was just, it's just when I look back now and think to myself, wow man, that's just so crazy that that actually was the kind of end of the career. I just didn't, it was like I thought, I thought it was, could it be the start of the career again? You know what I mean? So the guitar business was kind of it was starting to go in the right direction, but that passion of music was still so strong in me that this song is like nationally played. I then got to play the Royal Abbott Hall, I think, you know, supporting Simply Red, and I got to do a bunch of arena tours. And so there was this moment where I was working the building a guitar store still in London. And then I was touring, I was touring with Mick Hucknor Simply Red, like every single weekend. He was on doing the summer tour. So your career was taking off. It had kind of taken off and then it had sunk. And then it was kind of looking like it kind of could go again. It's like the stock market. But this stage, I had a I had a business that I was running. And I was learning every day about operational efficiency and margins and marketing and customers. Was it still this size? The small little size? But I but I'm like you know, starting to learn more about e-com and just ways that wish we could increase the business, increase the customer base, get more consignments, try to do deals with brands and get them to give me guitars on consignments. And so it it that's that crossroads moment that I was talking to you about earlier where I had a song on radio two, which was record of the week. I was touring and I had a guitar business that was on I could feel the guitar business was on the edge because I was and I was touring my daughter was born and I was literally touring. I'd work Monday through Friday and then I would get on the road and do Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday every single week. I mean I didn't see my daughter Frida for like I think it was like four months. I see her, but I'll be like when she'd wake up, I'd get home at two in the morning after driving back from Newcastle from doing a gig, give her a cuddle, feed her.

SPEAKER_01

Did you feel guilty?

SPEAKER_00

So guilty, so guilty. And also my wife, you know, she was on maternity leave and and and I you know, I said, Do you want to go back to work? She used to work in film, she worked at Ridley Scott's company RSA in production. And I was like, if you want to go back, we can do that, or if you don't want to go back, I'll make it work. And so I literally would work just around the clock all the time, just so we could so she could be a mum because she wanted to be a mum. Um and that was the moment really where I was like, I I never forget it. I would did a gig at this venue called King Tuts Wawa, which is actually where they found Oasis. It was where Oasis were were uh were spotted, and um it was my last gig, and these on my tours, and by this stage, you're trying to keep your costs down. You know, we talked about this earlier as an artist, you basically you're like booking the tours, you're driving, you're loading, you're doing the merch, you're doing the tickets, you know, promotion. Also, I'll try and do this. Is when social was pretty early, you know, we were trying to be smiley on hey guys, you know, all that sort of stuff. And um I did a gig in Glasgow, and and they what they used to do at this venue is a great venue, and I and I and I had some great gigs there, but they would book me at the as a headliner, but then they booked like four or five local acts, and so they would all go on from like seven until ten or eleven o'clock, and I'd go on at like 10:30, 11 o'clock. And normally on a if it was a Sunday night, everybody would leave because it was so late on a Sunday night. Anyway, I remember I turned up and I said, Um, I'm going on at eight o'clock. And they were like, You can't do that. It's you're the headliner. And I was like, I don't care, man. I cannot go on at 10 o'clock. I've got to be at work to open up my shop in London at 10am. And it's seven hours away. It's like from here to, you know. The water destiny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It literally is, right? So um I I so they've they begrudgingly let me do that. And I did my gig, and then I signed a couple of t-shirts, sold some merch, went to my sort of hotel, motel, got up, fell asleep, got up at three in the morning, got in my car, and I drove down to work. And I remember driving down, windows down, trying to stay awake. We were we were having this same conversation, and um it was like a a switch just went and I went, I'm done. It was the weirdest thing. Still you still struggled with it, you know, after that period when I was talking about cycling into to work and stuff. You still have the passion, you still want to have it. But I knew at that moment that the crossroads had gone from meeting to it doing that, and so um I came back and I opened up the shop. I was there at 10 a.m. We did the thing, and then I said to my wife, yeah, I'm done. And she was like, Oh my gosh, thank God for that. So that's when I really like doubled down. I took all of that energy, all of that the things I'd learnt from music. And I met some amazing people along the way, touring and gigging and learned so much about budgets, and that I was like, I'm applying all of that to my guitar business, the North American guitar. And so that's what I did is I just drove everything, all of that energy into the store, and um then we moved from that little space that I was talking about to uh bigger space in Old Street, and I was starting to do more stuff. I was like, I was bringing in um uh I was like doing deals where I was launching instruments because if I had found a found a brand that would give me free inventory on consignment, it's not free, but it's on consignment, I would then you know build their brand for them. And I'd do load loads of marketing, and it was pretty early on in the kind of content days. This guy, this guy Michael, we would do videos together, and we just slowly built the business. So that's kind of like from 2016 to 2019. And around around then, we were like flying to the NAM shows. I was doing interviews with people, and we were we started to build the North American guitar started to build as being a premium destination for fine fine-fretted musical instruments.

SPEAKER_01

So you were still in London? Yeah, still in London. But you're called the North American guitar. We started I know everybody asked that.

SPEAKER_00

So we called ourselves the North American Guitar because that's where the steel string guitar originated from. Yeah. So we've and the logo, if you look at the logo, it was some actually my dad and I kind of designed the logo with a guy called Michael Johnson, a different guy. Um, and uh yeah, so we we at that stage I I was just I just was eating, living, and breathing the company. And I was always looking for ways in which I could take because we were we were small, we weren't like you know these big UK brands that had massive following, doing mainstream brands, we were doing consignment, vintage, and boutique brands. And um fast forward to like 2019, and we'd just come, I'd come back to Nashville to a couple of years back. I'd come back to Nashville in 2017 for the NAM show because they used to do a summer NAM show here, and I remember coming back to Nashville having been away for 10 years and just being like, oh my god, this place has changed so much. Um and did the NAM show here and then went back. And weirdly enough, in 2019, I was coming back from a NAM show in Anaheim, and I'm I used to try to take my wife and then I have two kids at this stage with us for a vacation, so I'd go to work and they could have a little vacation.

SPEAKER_01

At Disneyland down there, yeah, yeah, dude. And the weather's always nice down there, it's always nice and you know, so because it's in what January, February. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd go there and I'd interview everybody, I'd interview the Luthia's, I'd walk around, have like my my my a guy that I used to call uh used to work with me called Richard would come with me. And um, I was coming back from that show and I got an email from a customer called Craig, um, who's a great collector, great player, lovely guy. And he he wrote this very critical. He wrote this very cryptic email to me going, Opportunity in Nashville, are you interested? Question mark.

SPEAKER_01

It's a question, pause. Are you is your company profitable? No, not. I mean, it was. It was it was how many years were you in? Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00

Um because this is 2019, 2019. So yeah, we're at that stage between 16 and 19 is when we became profitable. Okay. But how long had you been in business total? Well, I mean, realistically, I would say probably like properly from being a hobby business to being a full-time job, I would say three years. Okay. Three, three full years. So like from 13 to 16, we were kind of investing in the really all in. All in. Everything was all in.

SPEAKER_01

So you get the email, cryptic, yeah, interested.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Come to Nashville. Um, and I speak to this lady called Kim Sherman, and um I never forget, I was standing outside. We're in now this stage, we're in old old street. Um, we've got quite a big space in Old Street now. Um, beautiful location. And I'm standing outside, it's pouring with rain, and I'm chatting to the lady called Kim, and I was like, we just had this connection. So I go home to my wife and I say, I'm gonna go to Nashville. And she's like, okay. So we go to Nashville, get onto Houston Street. I've still got the photos. I was looking at them the other day, Houston Street in Wedgwood, which is now very, very different to what it used to look like. And I was walking along the railway track as being a Brit. I'd never seen things like that. I'm like taking pictures of all the road track. Anyway, so I meet Kim, come into cotton music, and um we're walking around the shop, and it's you know, quite a dark shop, you know, it's in like the lighting was you know quite low, and and I'm looking around, I'm thinking there's probably like 150 guitars on the wall here. So she's obviously wanting me to either acquire her or um partner in some way, and we hadn't really spoken about that yet. It was still kind of we were doing this dance, and I go to her, so you know, how many instruments do you own? Because I'm thinking, what's the value of the inventory gonna be? You know, and she goes, uh I own that one guitar there, and it was a Waterloo. I couldn't it was I can remember it. She goes to me, she goes, Yeah, I own that one. Um and I went, So who whose are all of these? She goes, Oh, these are these are on consignment, these are my my customers that have sent these on consignment. And I that's when we kind of I was like, That's what I do in the UK, and that's what you do here, and we just got on like so well. And I said to her, What is it that you really want? And she said, I just want to survive and I want to thrive. Her business partners left her, and so that night in the hotel I were on the back of an envelope, I wrote what we could probably do together and came in the next day, and I was like, that's what we could do. We'll set up a company called the North American Guitar Nashville, and we'll acquire you, and you know, you'll have equity, and we'll I'll give you everything you need from website to inventory to whatever you want to thrive. I'll provide it for you. And um let's go. So that's when I met Ron at Studiobank, who's still our banker now, and um yeah, so then that was 2019. Um, so we closed that late 2019. So you acquired cotton. Yeah, we acquired cotton.

SPEAKER_01

And cotton.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then she had equity in the business. You guys h still had the shopping line, and so you're expanding. So now, so now you're in both. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And there was a lot, and I'd always, because I've been coming here for so many years, especially for all the NAM shows and stuff. I I was always like, I used to go home to my wife and be like, you know, how do I get into the we and I want to try to get into the US? I loved the way that business was done here. I loved the the support that you know, if if you are, you know, if you work hard, you know, the support that entrepreneurs could get. There is that support in the UK. It's just I wouldn't say it's just quite as much as you get here. And so I was very passionate about how do I get into the the US market, it's the biggest part of the guitar market, you know, 70% of the guitar market. Um and um this this opportunity literally came from above and just like in you know dropped through that one email. And I and it's funny I reflect on that now because the reason why Craig did that was because he had such a great customer experience with us in London. He was he bought guitars from us in London when he was. And were these vintage or these both, both, okay? Yeah, boutique and vintage. He would come to he would be traveling, doing business in London, he'd come to the shop. And uh and was Craig a collector? Yeah, okay. Yeah, he's got an amazing collection. Um shout out to Craig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Craig. Thanks. So, so um, you know, Kim and I we formed this, we formed a company, the North American Guitar Nashville. So two, two, two entities, one in the UK, one here. And um, and then COVID hit. So we'd I think we'd officially launched the business in it's like late August, early September of 19. And COVID hit what in February, March of 2020. So um I was then faced with this, you know, very real situation of I I'd put everything into it to do the deal here. So I was pretty leveraged, you know, trying to open up a store here and run a store in the UK. And then when when COVID hit, I thought to myself, I need I I I want to be in the US. But that's when I decided to reduce the UK and increase the US. Um and at that time I, you know, around then I'd been trying to raise capital to do further expansion, but mainly also to to build our own tech. Because I realized, you know, Reverb was doing it was very early, was it was doing very well, and I just thought to myself, that's gonna be the differentiator before us. It's like, how do I try to build a inventory management system that's kind of like a marketplace for consignments but with brick and mortar? Um, and cotton was the that was like Kim and Cotton was the inception of that. Um and so you know, we decided we we basically we we closed down everything in the UK. I kept one sales guy, moved everything over to the US. Um we'd raised some capital. Uh we worked with a we worked with a private equity firm to raise that capital. And um we then came to came to Nashville and um that was when two about that was in 2021 we moved here. And then that was when we did the deal with Walter and Christy. Because then I I picked up the phone to them and I said, you know, would you be interested in you know, partnering or merging or selling your business?

SPEAKER_01

And why do you think they chose you?

SPEAKER_00

That's a I I don't know. Um I think that they were at a they were at a point in their life. I think certainly Walter was at a point in his life where he'd, you know, he'd there was he'd achieved everything. They they had achieved everything, you know, adoration, respect. I mean, they are phenomenal people. Um and what they had built with Carter's was phenomenal. And I've been a fan of Carter's for years. I mean, and we and funny enough, we'd actually opened our stores at roughly the same time that they opened in 2012, and we kind of we were officially a proper business in 2012, 2013. Um and um yeah, so uh, you know, I just and that went on for a long time. I mean, Christy Walter and I were talking for nine months before we did a deal. And it was going, it was going, we went for a long period of time doing that.

SPEAKER_01

Was it because they wanted it to go to the right hands? Was it a dating process?

SPEAKER_00

Very much so. And it always is. I mean, when you are, you know, when you're trying to acquire a business, you're definitely um you're definitely learning that you're learning who they are, you're learning what the business is. And we didn't actually get to you, it you never get to go deep into the business. You know, you do due diligence and obviously, you know, you financial, um, you know, tax, legal, all that kind of stuff. But it's always, you know, you don't understand the people, you don't get to meet the people that are behind the the founders um when you're doing that because you don't want to shake the business, you don't want people to feel uneasy or anything like that. So it was quite, you know, I was used to go there at night time. I would literally go for, you know, we'd go out for dinner and then I I'd say, Can I go and see the store? And we would go there at 6 p.m. and we'd walk around together. Um and so we did that in we closed that transaction in um February the 28th of 2022. So we've been talking for about nine months. Um and then I, you know, you know, full full transparency, we had some very, very challenging times with the private equity firm that we had initially worked with. Very, very challenging times.

SPEAKER_01

You know, they private equity is a is is you know So basically you're taking like from what I understand, because this is something that I thought about, like when you have funding in your business, you're kind of owned in a way. Yeah, right? Very much so. But what is that pressure like?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, I cannot even tell you what the pressure is like. It is it was unbelievable. And it you what happens is you're you've kind of you've bootstrapped it. I mean, I bootstrapped the crap out of this. I mean, like before that moment I got funding. I mean, I was like, you know, I'd take a PayPal loan to buy some inventory, to then say sell that, to then pay the PayPal loan down, and then I'd do a LibriSt loan to get some, you know, some different stock or to buy some vintage pieces and then pay that. I mean, like, I bootstrapped it every single day. There was not a moment that I was not, you know, and that's what you do, man. I mean, you, you know, if you believe in what you do and you're willing, you know, and I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do, but you know, for me that was how I did it. Um, and um, when you get a capital partner in, you're like, yes, at first, uh you're like, somebody believes in what I'm my vision. And my vision really was I wanted to create a premium sort of marketplace. That was kind of my idea, wrapped in brick and mortar. So it's all about the experience, it's like customer focused, customer driven. It wasn't about doing business B2C, it was all about C2C, or C2B2C, rather, you know, consignments basically.

SPEAKER_01

And consumer to consumer or business to consumer. So consumer to business to consumer. So we are essentially a C to B to C. So like I could walk in with a guitar today and I could allergize it. Consign it with you. Yeah, and that's going to the business, yeah. But then it's out on the floor, so then a consumer's buying it. So it's C to B to C. Yeah. Um And then you guys get a percentage of the sale and everybody wins. Everybody wins because they get visibility out on the floor where there's how many people walk through this store per year.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, we have 8,000 people a month.

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_00

So but the what happens is you then you fit you think you Yes, I've done it. Finally, I've got people that believe in me and they believe in my vision and what I'm doing. I'm going to build a team and it's all great. And then the pressure from that just goes and just comes down and down and down and down. And so it got to a point where it was just, it was pretty awful.

SPEAKER_01

Because they want their money back.

SPEAKER_00

It was not necessarily about they wanting their money back. It was that they were making directional decisions about the business that they didn't understand. And we would go back, my team and I would go back and we'd say, This is what we need to do. And it was like, you're not doing that. You're doing this. And so but you but then for for my position is you're essentially, it's interesting. I've never spoken, I do know, I've never spoken about this on a podcast. Or never, this is my first proper podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's an interesting one. I love that you're uh well, you're killing it, but this is very interesting to me. Well, you know, it it's I think we all like when you're starting out, like I'll talk about myself real quick. Like for the podcast, I've thought so many times, man, it would be great to get like funding. Like it would solve all my problems. And back to you.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it you know, it in the right partner, that's the lesson, is the right partner does provide that. Yeah, no doubt. And you know, to grow for growth, you need capital. And so whether you get that capital from a bank, whether you get it from friends and family, or whether you get it from an investor. Um to expand and grow, you've got to have capital. Um what happened with me was in that situation was that you I become to to the to like the team at Cardas and the team at Cotton that I was building, or North Bering Daryl National that I was building, I'm the leader. You know, it's my vision. Hey, this is what we're doing, guys, and this is how we're doing it. We're all gonna be in it together. And then you're then having to report up to people who maybe don't share your vision and and put a pressure on you that you then have to disperse that pressure to the team. And I was just you would just get squeezed, you're like the the kind of the ham in the sandwich. You just get and you're just getting squeezed and squeezed and squeezed until eventually it almost popped. And I you know, not to go into too much detail, but like, you know, I was I was left by them very, very leveraged. I mean, majorly leveraged. There was a lease, a new lease, there was a build out, there was all of these things that they had basically just been like, you know, we're out. And um I was like, okay. And I um one one brick at a time, one guitar at a time. I was like, I'm gonna build this business back.

SPEAKER_01

Um what year was that?

SPEAKER_00

That is uh 20 uh big uh 2023. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So did you have this this building was not no uh built out yet? You're still across the street. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I've got a very expensive build out, I've got to fund personally. There's no backing now.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I've got to build I've gotta build out this place, I've got to hire a team, I've got to find the instruments, I've got to negotiate with landlords, I've got to negotiate with banks, you know, and I've got to build it. Negotiate with contractors. Because you're you you know, so for me, that was one of those moments like being on stage for that first time where you could drop the guitar and run. And for me, I it was there was some challenges I, you know, don't go into, but it was tough. And my wife is like, you can do it, just get in there and do what you do. And so I came in and uh negotiated with lots of people, and you know, we took an invoice and we spread it out and we built this business one one guitar at a time. We built this business. Um, and so um, you know, I then a year later after launching this, I was in a position where I was able to buy the private equity firm out. So I bought the company back to being a family-owned business. And today it's a family-owned business.

SPEAKER_01

So whatever you owed them, you were able to buy it out, and then you were yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But it's funny because you know, what's really interesting is, and it's funny that we're even talking about this, but like people assume that because of that period of time, they don't know, because I've never spoken about it, they don't know that I I acquired the private equity firm out. I bought them out and brought it back to being family-owned. Um, and when we then bought norms earlier this year, there was this wave of people that came online and was like, private equity are doing this. And and hey, when you know, I I I am not in any way being negative about private equity. I'm so grateful for the opportunities that I've been presented by capital that I was able to raise in order to grow this business. And the lessons that you learn at the darkest times of business are the lessons that will shape the way you are as an entrepreneur, will shape the way you are as a boss, as a leader.

SPEAKER_01

What was uh the the darkest for you, one of the darkest moments?

SPEAKER_00

I there was a time when I had been I'd actually been they tried to remove me from the business. Nobody knows about this.

SPEAKER_01

Um they tried to kick you out of the movie from the equation so they could run it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay. And um the company nearly it very, very close to going under.

SPEAKER_01

And that was So this is like sleepless nights. This is like a hundred percent. Did you clin did you jar clinch your teeth at night and stuff?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, yeah, very much so. Yeah. But you know what, man? I I I really believe like this. I was asked the other day, you know, this is um, this is my first ever proper sit-down podcast. I've never done this. I've done one other podcast with this great guy called Bobby, where I was it was headphones in on the screen. And he asked me this question. He was like, you know, what do people not know about you? And I and I and I after getting quite a lot of comments, not that I read them, but people would bring them to me or about, you know, oh, it's private equity buying up all the mama pop shops and because that's what people assume, customers. And I was like, you know, it assumption without fact is misleading. And that everybody has a journey, everybody has a has a story and a journey, and people always jump to something that they wanna they want to believe. Um, and um I'm proud of the journey. I'm so proud of the journey. I'm so proud of the lessons that I learned. It it made me realize where I'd failed as a leader, big time. It made me realize where I needed to improve as a leader, improve as a businessman.

SPEAKER_01

Um what was the hardest lesson that you learned?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's a tough one. Um, I think the hardest lesson of that whole period was not being present. That is my single greatest fear. And the fact there was one guy that really great guy who used to work for us, and he just said, Where were you, man? To me, when it all was kicking off. And I was like, I was spending time talking with these people above me, kind of thing, you know. Um When you say present, what do you mean by that? I feel like, you know, when you are when you're building a big ship, um you you need to be. I I like when we when we acquiring norms, there was, you know, the integration process was a big process. Moving from Carter's to here was a big process. Um and being present for everybody everybody and being with everybody as a team lays the foundation. Uh, because people go, he's doing it. If he's doing it, then I'm doing it. You know what I mean? And and so, and this, and that goes the same through everything from front of house on ordering a t-shirt. I want to be present for them to that. That's not me being controlling, it's like they come back with the designs and we sit down together and I go, Well, I quite like that one. And they'll be like, that's not gonna work, Ben. This one will work. And I'm like, okay. Or the repair guys, if you ever need me for, you know, questions on can we do this, can we done the sales guys on the weekend, every weekend, doesn't matter what day of the week, what time of the weekend, I'm on Teams, I'm on text, I'm on the phone, you call me for anything. So that's presence. I think it's very important as a business leader. The lesson that I learned from not being present, that you you need to be present.

SPEAKER_01

Um and um present almost comes across as available.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes, but also a presence in everything, every transaction, every bit of advice. I mean, like, you know, we are we're a big family of people here. There's 45 employees now. I mean, I cannot, when I think about that from 2012, having two people in a tiny little room to having a 13,000 square foot space with 45 people and then another location in in LA, I'm like, you know, great so grateful, but shocked. But you, you know, we've we've got people having children, people are getting married. It's like it's that's amazing. And that's also presence, it's presence for them and the collective that you're building. And that comes into culture. And that was another thing I think that I really learned was culture, the importance of culture in a business. It's something that when you're starting a company, you don't really think about it, it's like a buzzword you hear that you think they got a great culture over it, and you're like, sure, man. Yeah, you know what I mean. Whereas here, you and and when you acquire a company, they have a culture and you have a culture. So do they fit or do they not fit? And do you learn things from yours that you should improve, or can you you know improve theirs? Um, and I feel that when we built this space out, it was uh a time that everybody, it was like the best team building exercise you could ever imagine. Coming from a challenging time previously to now with the team. I get such joy out of people coming here, and you know, when I'm meeting someone like you, having a conversation or a customer being like, Man, everybody's so friendly here because they love it, they love coming to work here, as I love coming to work here.

SPEAKER_01

Back to you on the couch. Yeah. You're sitting in his house with him and his wife, two dogs. That's a great weave, by the way. And you watch this documentary.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I remember that last shot. It's just a slow pin. And you're in this warehouse. And you don't even know these guitars exist until this documentary reveals all these boxes, these crates full of guitars. Which, by the way, do you know how many guitars you have in app that you've acquired? Do you have a number?

SPEAKER_00

In as in between both locations. Um between both locations is probably over 4,000 guitars.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's a lot of guitars.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And some extremely a lot of extremely high value instruments as well. And you're so you're like, there's all owned, not all owned. Oh, concerned, yes, yes, yes. Um that panning shot though, man, there's Norm sitting there, and everybody is, you know, talking about no one can replace Norm, all that. So, how did that feel for you when you acquired Norms? And but before that, on that couch, how did you end up getting the call to potentially acquire Norman's Rare guitars?

SPEAKER_00

Great, great question. So, what's really interesting is we were talking in 2000 at the end of 2002. So I'm on that couch with Norm at the end in November of 2022. So I'm still very much fresh with Carter's, and I'm still very much with the private equity firm. And when we didn't do a deal, and honestly, I by the grace of God, and and in in a way, like it's so thankful that we didn't do a deal then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, with Nora.

SPEAKER_00

Because it was that close, it was that close back then, and then all of the stuff happened with the challenges of working with these guys. And then you bought them out. Then we bought them out, then we built this, and then so for two years, so from 2024 to now to January of this year, we just all we did was just eat, breathe, and live what we're doing here. Customer obsession. I say to everybody, we have to be customer obsessed. Every guitar that comes in, whether it's one guitar of a thousand dollars or it's one guitar of a million dollars, same customer experience for the guys buying, whether it's a mum and dad buying their daughter a first guitar, or whether it's a collector buying his hundredth guitar, whether it's post Malone or Vince Gill, or whether it's some brand new artist coming through town. Same customer experience. And I'm really passionate about that. And I believe that that's one of the reasons why this has had and seen such success over the last few years. Um, you know, we grew the business 44% between 2024 and 2025. And um it was mid-last year that the documentary came out for Norm. And I so it's now back to being family-owned. We're we're great team culture, we you know, put the past behind us. Is cotton absorbed in yes, so this is funny. Uh, this is so Kim and Kim Sherman is my managing partner. She's like my sister. So she's still she's a she's we put her in, she has an office and she overlooks the whole of Nashville. She has a little plaque that we gave her called Queen Kimmy. Because she's the great She's the OG. She is the OG. She is the greatest guitar salesperson I've ever met in my life. Because she, in fact, the customer obsession I would go so far as to say is personified by that one amazing woman. And she um, yeah, so she has her has her incredible, uh, incredible space back there, and uh customers bringing so many instruments to her all the time. But what's amazing, I do quick sidestep on it, is that Kim now sells three times the amount of guitars that she sells in one month that Cotton Music did in one year. So she now, you know, and is probably you know, you know, so well respected across, you know, with all of her customers. Um I'm very proud of being her partner. She's an amazing, amazing woman. So I just want to say that. That's awesome. So we get a so the documentary comes out, and of course, there's a part of me that's like, oh man, I just love to still have that business. I'd still love to continue Norm's legacy. Were you guys friends? We hadn't spoken since then. We text every now and again. Like if I saw something, I'd be like, hey man, how you doing? Or but you know, it the deal didn't work out, so we just had kind of Yeah, totally yeah. And then um the documentary came out, and they'd edited the documentary a little a little bit since I had because he'd had his illness in between, so they'd moved it away from the storytelling, it was slightly slightly different, but it was still the same documentary. Um and I wrote him a text message just saying he does not text, Norm, doesn't he does not like to text. Um, and I remember text saying, just so grateful to have watched that documentary with you back in 2022 at your house. Uh congratulations. And he immediately picked the phone, called me. And I was channeling, he's like, hey man, you know, we're still I'm still looking. And I was like, I'll be there in a week. And so flew out, met him, we hung out.

SPEAKER_01

And um when you say, or when you say he said, I'm still looking, that meant that he was looking for the potential exit of his business because he I would imagine because I I went through this with my dad, as my dad aged, there just comes a point where you're like, All right, I'm ready to hang it up, and yeah, it's it's time. So, was that kind of where he was at, like in his head with the business and wanting it to go into the right hands?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, very much so. Very much. I I get I could get quite emotional when I when I talk about Norm because he's an amazing man. He really is an amazing, amazing man. He is the like you talk about OG, he's the like founding father of the vintage guitar market, yeah. Um and you know, he could forget more than I could ever learn. And and he's just an amazing guy, and you know, he loves that business so much that he poured his life and his soul into that that shop that when he um got to that stage of where's my succession plan, that um he wanted to choose. And so the fact that he chose us, and he chose us, for no doubt, he was like these are the guys to take on my my legacy, and for me it was like a you know it was like a perfect storm in that I'd learned from I'd learnt from you know cotton, I'd learnt some amazing lessons from acquiring carters. And it's not like I've got done like 20, 30 acquisitions, it's like two, you know. And you just learn so much in business when you do that. Um that when we when we finally were at the point of doing this, you know, because I I'm so passionate about these legacy brands, there are so many that this market in these instruments and the music that they create and the artists that come from them and the passion that comes from. And even if you're not an artist, the campfires that you sing in front of your children, and it's just it's such a romantic business. It's not like selling shoes, not that that's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01

But and you can't really put a price on what an instrument creates either, the memories.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I love about the guitar. I mean, when someone said to me a while ago, like, what's your favorite thing about the guitar? And you it was quite an open question, and one person you many people would talk about, oh, I like pickups of this year and I like whatever. And for me, I was like, I love not knowing the life or thinking about what life did that instrument have. What life did that 57 D18 on that wall, who did it play to? How many songs did it write? How many bars did it play in? How much heartbreak was poured into it, how much joy was poured out of it. You know, I that for me that is the thing. That's why I'm here because I was a songwriter. That's I love that. But um, so yeah, so um Norm and I we we um we started talking again. I flew over there and um we actually had a customer who really was was instrumental in really pulling us together to start making the deal become formalized. Um and then we we we negotiated our the terms of it and we closed and we closed the transaction on the 14th of January this year.

SPEAKER_01

How does a what is a good deal? At the end of the day, is it w is it like a win-win?

SPEAKER_00

My grandfather would always say that a good deal is a fair deal. When you both walk away from it going, well that bit hurt, but that's okay because I won that bit. And you have to there has to be push and pull on both sides. Um and the the thing with with with with norms is that there is um there's such a it's such a response with all of these, you know, with with certainly with Carter's as well, you know, there's such a responsibility I have on I feel which is why you lie awake at night, not just because you got you know big payroll bills or you've got big you know overheads or whatever it may be. To be a custodian of someone's name is a really big thing because you want to make sure that uh their grandchildren or their children or them can be proud. Of what you have taken on to build. And and on and at the end of the day, all we're all I'm trying to do with these legacy brands is keep them going so they don't just close. And obviously as a businessman, I'm trying to grow their brands so that we can service our customers with our tech and with our capabilities to provide the ultimate guitar buying experience, whether you're in LA or whether you're in in Nashville or New York or you know, wherever Colorado. So um for me it's about an ecosystem that we're trying to create by maintaining these brands that have are the foundation of the guitar industry, musical instrument industry.

SPEAKER_01

At the end of that documentary, back to that, because I just think about it. When there's that bright white light and it's shining down on Norm. And um he's talking, I think. There's dialogue towards it. Yeah, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

That's one shot then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that whole yeah, that's just one shot. Yeah. If that was put yourself there, put Ben Montague in that chair.

SPEAKER_00

Someone's printing back here. You can unplug the printer.

SPEAKER_01

That's fine. If you were oh, they can print. That was an important document. There's a business to run here, guys. All right, we got guitars to sell. Yeah. There's money to be made. Um, but do you because I mean you are you use the word perfect word custodian, man. You are a custodian. And I'll just be straight up, man. I think that it would be easy, and you said it in a really nice way earlier, so I would butcher it if I tried, but it would be easy to see this younger fellow that's not from the States that comes in and buys up these legacy brands. And I bet you like people are like, who's this? Oh, yeah, who's this rich dude buying these things? That's like, you know, that's exactly that's exactly it. That's gotta be the thing that you have to like overcome and fight against, or prove that no, that's not who I am. Like, how does that how do you because I I don't know how I navigate it. How do you navigate it?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, um it goes back to what I was saying about being judged on what you do rather than an assumption. That's it, that's what you said. And I feel like if you first of all, being being a a British guy coming and living in America and you know, acquiring two of the most uh beloved names in the guitar world. I mean like the most famous guitar shops in the world. Um there's you by by the nature of that, there's there's there's backlash, there's people that aren't gonna be happy about that. Um and it you you can't help but not take it personally. You can't help it if someone is saying things about you that uh are literally not correct in any way whatsoever. Um you can't help but want to go, no, you're wrong. That's not true, and this is who I am, and I've done this and I've struggled here, and I, you know, because people don't know the truth, they don't know the whole story, they don't know the whole story, and so I feel like you know, you can do that, or you can just do a really great job and try to do the best job you can do. And some people are gonna like the best job that you're gonna do, and some people aren't gonna like the best job that you can do, and that's okay. And that took me a long time to realise that because you cannot please everybody, and if you try to please everybody, you will fail. So just you know, there's a great business leader, you know, Gary V, you know him, yeah. Gary V inner time, big fan. Love him, marketing genius, marketing genius. But I remember years ago, back to that little shop, I would be watching Gary V YouTube videos. And these are this one where this guy was coming up and he was going, My competitor's doing this, my competitor's doing that. Well, and he just went, stop looking at your competitor. Don't worry about what they do, just worry about what you do, and make sure that what you do is the best that you can do and be judged or celebrated by that. Um, and so really that's the kind of that comes back to that culture. That's what I've desperately tried to instill in here. And I get all the time, people go, Have you seen what Stones is doing online? Have you seen what Stones is doing up the road? Have you seen that? And I'm like, that's amazing. Good, that's anybody that does that, it's good for them. You know, that's they have to have blinders. You just have to bel you just have to believe in what you do. That's that simple. You just have to believe in what you do, and you will upset some people. That's just the nature of life, and certainly the nature of business. But how much belief do you get instilled in you from your wife? Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm nothing without my wife. I will stand up and say, I would not be in this position right now if it wasn't for my wife. She is my backbone in every way. And behind every, you know, and I'm not using myself as an example here, but the the saying goes behind everyone. Yeah, from uh Napoleon Hill wrote that and think and grow rich. So, like, and it's so true, and it it's she's my backbone and um is everything. And when it got dark, when you you've you've partnered with people to grow the business, and you've lost all control of your company. Because that's the other thing, is when you bring on capital partners, you do tend to have to give up that control, and it's not yours to control at all, but then you know, things can happen. And um, throughout that was that you asked me what was the hardest thing of that whole period seeing my wife cry every night because of uncertainty. That was the hardest thing because she um I definitely don't want to crawl camera. No man, it's it's dragging your wife through the thing because I feel like I'm going through this, just like Haley's here But to see like have kids and a wife and drag them through something that is incredibly stressful, where you're like I'm behind on bills or whatever it is is uh very I'm experiencing that just between you and I it's a um you know it's it's a very, very, you know, you uh as an as an entrepreneur you try and do the right thing. You know, and sometimes that presents challenging times, and that was a very, very challenging time for me. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I um I don't think that people understand when people I don't think that there's a lot of people that are employees of companies, and I've always heard this quote that you either work for someone that followed their dream or you follow your dream. And those people that work for people that follow their dreams can look at them. They can look at the leader, they can look at the CEO, and they can say, Oh, you know, that guy had the easy ride or whatever. But what they don't see is the stress, the sleepless nights, your wife crying because of uncertainty. That's like children, yeah. A kid's looking at them, being like, Am I am I present enough for my kids? Am I home enough? Like I feel guilty about that. Like there's this guilt you carry, and then there's this like all the head game, the stuff you can play, the you know, the inner critic. And I think those are things that people don't see when they see business, and they don't see when they see an acquisition of a guitar company, or they don't see it in norms, or the fact that Norm chose you, I think is a really interesting testament to your character and who you are and what you've built. And I feel like uh it's important that that is said, and that that there's light shin upon that. Not that it's in defense of no, no, I'm a good guy, like I deserve this. Not that it's that, but it's like, no, this is like a real life journey for you. This is you live the musician side, you live the business side, you you've bootstrapped it like any great entrepreneur did in the beginning, you know, like you see those old pictures of uh Amazon and Jeff Bezos. I love that with the Amazon sign.

SPEAKER_00

I love that picture. Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01

And that's where every business starts. And that's something that you are now stewarding. And my question for you as we wrap up, and this has been I really appreciate you first talking a couple of I got emotional there. Sorry about that. No, dude, I oh, and by the way, dude, speaking of emotional, this guitar's been sitting in this shot, and I just wanted to talk about it for a sec, because it's kind of like my dad's been sitting here with me a little bit. Um, because he my dad and I bought this guitar when he could still walk around uh with the oxygen concentrator, and then he got to the point at the end of his life where he's just on oxygen 24-7 and he couldn't leave the home. But I remember I have a picture, I was gonna show it to you. I'll put it in the video uh the day we got this, and he was so proud, and it was because something I had accomplished. And it's the only vintage guitar I own, but had always I always wanted a walnut ES 335, and this one's a 345, which I think's even cooler because the inlays, but it's from Carter, and this guitar has represented to me, just like we were talking about stories, uh, it's represented to me my dad believing in me. And I may not pick up the guitar as much as I used to, like we were talking about, but this is like the one guitar that I have that I would never sell or never get rid of because there's so much behind it and so much of his belief in me, just like you had your wife believe in you, and my wife believes in me. So I I just wanted to say that too, man, because Carter's like played a role in my life. Um I want to know at the end of that, at the end of your, you know, when the when the camera shots panning in on you at the end of your life, man. What do you want to be known for? What's your legacy? Is it the kids? Is it the family? Is it the guitars or is it everything?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's definitely my children. I I've I'm such a believer. It was interesting as a guitar string just pinged. Did you hear that as I did that? Um Yeah, no, it's definitely my children. Yeah, I want I I have a saying with my kids that I say every single day, and I said it to you earlier. Um I'm saying you have three rules, and yet say it Monday to Friday, and it's work hard, listen, and be kind. I think if you live by those rules, um, and it's challenging to do that. You can't always you have bad days, you know, you have days that you know it's it's hard to do those things, but if you live by those three rules, you'll be a good person and you'll do okay. Um work hard, listen, listen, and be kind.

SPEAKER_01

Be kind. It's easy to skip past that second one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Um, and I feel like if you know, I would I would love for them to um create their own journey. I would love for them to to go and my my daughter is um, you know, I know that she is gonna go off and do music. And we were talking about that. Do we do we want them to do music? Do we not? We know the emotional roller coaster that music can have, but I believe that she will do that, and I believe that my son will um thrive in some form of uh I think he's gonna be like paleontologist or something like that, because he's just obsessed with you know rocks and fossils and things. So just want to be a good dad, a good husband, and a good business leader. That's my that's my goal.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great uh hierarchy of putting it that way, man. Um I appreciate your time. Thanks, man. I think what you're doing and just being able to meet you and walk around and chat and stuff before that we even did this interview. It's been cool to kind of been amazing. We're even wearing the same brand shirt, just different colors. And so it's been um uh dude, I haven't seen your watch yet. I'm gonna have to ask that's a sub, huh? Is it it is okay. I saw an edge. Uh, but I'm a watch guy guitar guy to review on another level, probably. But it's been great, man. Like for real. I appreciate you opening up, telling your story, letting us come in and film in this beautiful store while there's customers out there buying guitars. And I see an old man that's gotta be in his 70s or 80s right now, with what looks like his grandson looking at buying a guitar every day. And that's what that's what it's all about. It's all about. And I want to just say thank you to you because this podcast is um you should be very proud of what you're creating. Well, thank you, man. Very, very cool. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's been awesome. Thanks. Yeah, yeah. Acoustic's just and uh like you like the these a little bit hard when you're talking about you barely have to touch it. Like I just feel like they're so resting. I mean, that's the thing, it's like how much push through these things. So this is this is a fan. So is this one the first?