Zack Telander: Chris Williamson, Diplo & the Fight for Human Music

Zack Telander joins The Stephan Hogan Podcast for a conversation about Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom, Diplo, AI music, fatherhood, creativity, and the fight to keep art human.

Many people know Zack through Olympic weightlifting, YouTube, Modern Wisdom, or his friendship with Chris Williamson. But this conversation goes deeper than the clips. Zack shares how he went from fitness creator to songwriter, the moment Chris Williamson encouraged him to record his music, and why that belief changed the direction of his life.

We also talk about Zack’s strong stance on AI music, Diplo, Suno, Udio, stolen art, and what happens when people outside of the music community try to decide the future of music for artists, musicians, and fans.

But this episode is not just about AI.

It is about imposter syndrome, self-awareness, fatherhood, marriage, authenticity, the pressure to constantly post, the loss of artistic mystery, and the tension of trying to make real music in a world that keeps turning everything into content.

If you discovered Zack through Modern Wisdom, Chris Williamson, weightlifting, music, or his viral thoughts on AI, this conversation shows the fuller human story behind the opinions.

This is a conversation about music, meaning, friendship, Nashville, Austin, rock and roll, country music, and why human-made art still matters.

Chapters:
00:00:00 Zack Telander on AI Music and the Future of Artists
00:06:16 From Olympic Weightlifting to Telling Stories Online
00:09:58 Chris Williamson, Belief, and the Song That Changed Everything
00:16:15 What Makes Music Actually Matter?
00:22:30 Imposter Syndrome, Self-Awareness, and the Artist’s Struggle
00:30:00 Why Real Connection Still Wins
00:33:45 Musicians, AI, and Protecting Human Creativity
00:38:44 How Artists Can Measure Real Wins
00:45:00 AI, the Music Gold Rush, and Who Really Profits
00:49:59 Authenticity, Live Music, and the Human Element
00:57:29 Why Zack Is Chasing Alt Pop Rock
01:03:45 Marriage, Fatherhood, and Making No Money Chasing a Dream
01:07:30 The Creative Cost of Chasing a Dream
01:12:30 Country Music, Genre Bubbles, and Industry Influence
01:18:45 Austin vs Nashville and the Reality of the Music Scene
01:25:01 Staying Grounded as an Artist

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https://www.simonsaysnashville.com/

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Filmed in Nashville, TN
Produced by Stephan Hogan
A Mavericks Media Co. Production

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Two of the biggest acts in the world, Sizza and Noah Khan, are both like, yeah, no, you're right. Let's go. Good job, Zach. Nice, nice take. Do you know Chris Williamson?

SPEAKER_01 0:09

He does Modern Wisdom's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, so he's my best. I watched the tour diaries, by the way, that's how I knew about you and watching you open for him last year, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Okay. Yeah, we did two tours together. It's me, Chris, um, and our two friends, and I think I had a couple margaritas, and we were just hanging at their house, and he had a karaoke machine. This was not Chris, our friend uh was like rapping and being an idiot. And Chris was like, I gotta get him to stop. Like, this is so annoying. Like, somehow we need to get the microphone out of his hands. They had two microphones. So, and there was a Martin guitar. Chris was like, Zach, you've been writing songs, right? Can you play one for us? Like, do anything to stop him from rapping. And we set up one of them, karaoke microphones on my guitar and one on my voice, and I played a song. And it was just those three sitting right there. And I like looked up from finishing my song, and they were like, and and I remember Chris just saying very simply, just do that in a studio. This ability to not talk and let your art speak is really what artists are after. And the point of social media is to do the opposite. How many idiots have we seen these crazy billionaires just saying absolute garbage takes on behalf of humanity? It's like the Sunno AI guy who is completely out of touch with reality, right? Millionaire, billionaire, whatever he is, gets to determine what music is to people. That's insane. He can't name a fucking Crosby Steels and Nash song. He doesn't, he doesn't know a single record on here. Fuck him. Why is he the decider of music? That's that to me is like, I can't stand that. I will take a hard line. Like, fuck you. You don't know music, you don't know musicians, you don't know the industry, and yet you're determining what's best practice for it. I did one piece of content, and I think I sold 150 tickets. Like off of one, you know, but I've I've done like 10 pieces of content and sold zero tickets at the same time. So there is this like what was different about that? It just it just it was it popped off. Like, you know, it would like what was it about? It was about diplo.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah. Um, which, you know, all my homies hate AI music. Some piece of merch that I kind of made off the back of that.

unknown 2:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Well, that's a diplo connection thing. Well, he uh has been very outspoken being like pro-AI. Or it's the same verbiage that he uses that like a lot of you know technocrats or these big uh tech oligarchs are using, like get with the times, get with AI or get lost, you know. And the issue I had with with that was the carelessness by which he talked about it. There is um AI is uh I I mean I've been using AI in studio for like five years to stem split, um, or just take out click noise out of a like if you're singing or playing an acoustic guitar, you want the click pump in. Yeah, you got bleed. You get bleed from the click from like from your headphones because it's so quiet. And there's AI, has there's AI tools that have been used for a long time, like pre-Chat GPT. We just call them plugins, yeah. They're just plugins, and I'm like, great, use that. Uh but he has a stake in either Suno or Yu-Gi-Oh or whatever, you know, and he's because he's an investor, they adopt this dialect that I didn't sign up on to, and no musician did. You know, like this is the future, get with it. It's like, why? I didn't, I didn't see what what did I sign? I was like, yeah, this is cool. And now now we have artists whose music is uh training these models. Yeah, the did you see the Warner catalog acquisition? Yeah. The lawsuit?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Well, I I saw that there is a class action lawsuit being filed. There's a I think there's another one, and this can be fact-checked, but Warner sued, I believe it was Suno. Right, but they only see and then they settled, made hella money, and then now Suno's training their model off of Warner's catalog while Warner's gets rich. Yes. So it's like we're gonna skew you, we're we're gonna see you, we're sticking up for the musician. They when they really were really all they wanted to do was settle outside. Just make a lot of money off of the music that they already own the catalog rights to.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Right. But this is uh the the thing that just happened, and I think it was was the Atlantic. What they they made a database, and they just, if you type in your artist name, and it's it's not just artistry, it's writers, like authors. My dad's a writer, and so I just searched Telender. Did they are they training off my songs? And it was all my dad's books and articles that he's written that AI has been training off of. I'm not a big enough artist yet to be able to make that video, like, oh, they're training off of my songs. But um, yeah, I mean, that's how LLMs work. And uh interestingly enough, like Sciza, she liked one of my videos, and Noah Khan had just put out it was the his album was number one. This was right before Drake came and took that from him. I think he's still probably top 10 with that with Great Divide. And he reposted my my video. And so, like, I'm I'm talking about we're talking about two of the biggest acts in the world, Sizza and Noah Khan, are both like, yeah, no, you're right. Let's go. Good job, Zach. Nice, nice take.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, because your takes are great, man. Like you're very you're very sharp, dude. And that's one of the things that I think is cool about you is your ability to articulate on socials different ideas, thoughts, opinions about things.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

It's because I've been doing it for 15 years, not 15, close to 15 years now. I was making YouTube videos. I've been talking to camera for ages.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, because you started just backtrack so people know a little bit about your backstory, because I think this is important as we like get into the the convo. Uh, can you talk about the fitness stuff? Yeah. So um you don't have to go deep into it, but just like how how it got from there to here.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Well, I mean, I've been playing music with my dad since I was a kid. I my dad found a receipt to my drum set when I was 11, 2001. And he sent me a picture of it. It was the coolest thing seeing that. So I've been playing music for my whole life, you know, life basically. And once I graduated high school, I was just like, all right, I guess I'm done. Um then I graduated college and I started like just kind of hitting the gym all the time and specifically like strength and conditioning, like the science of it and how to lift and all these things. And then I got into this very niche sport called Olympic weightlifting. And I think because it's in a gym, people are like, oh, it's like bodybuilding, it's like power, it's all this stuff. It's like, no, it's actually closer to bowling, it's closer to like a very specific sport that has incredible amounts of technique than it is to the fitness, health and fitness industry. And so I think the because again, that's how I was in the fit lumped into the fitness industry, but I was just really into this sport. And then things would happen in the fitness industry, things would happen in the wellness industry, and I would comment on them, and those videos would go crazy. Like you know, the liver king. Remember that? Of course. So I was part of like we were the crew, like me and this guy Derek Moore Plates More Dates. He was a big YouTuber. Um we made like the exposure documentary type of thing that like exposed him. Oh no, yeah. And I remember we went to the gym, him and I, and I heard people talking about it. This was like a week later, and people were talking about the liver king. And I was like, Oh, well, how'd you find out about it? They're like, uh, you know, um, we read a Rolling Stone article, or we read, you know, Barstool covered it, or whatever. And they didn't even know the creators of that were standing right in front of them. That's how big it got. It was like, it was beyond, they wouldn't even like, you know, we were the original source, but it the story had gotten so big that they had no idea that the guys who broke the story were right there. Um, and so that's how like my fitness journey kind of happened when I got into Olympic weightlifting, when I got into wellness, I made videos non-stop. You know, I made one video a week for seven years straight. Did you do it because you loved it? I think I think so. I yeah, and it was fun to be rewarded, you know. I had a following of people that were growing behind me, and it regardless of what I really love is telling a story. Like genuinely, it's telling a story, and to be able to hold a camera and film that and tell that story is what I'm obsessed with. And that to me is like, okay, I've been playing music my whole life. That's what I can do with music now. It's way better. It's like this is like, you know, this is meth to compared to uh, I don't know, some something that's like like a coffee. You know what I mean? I'm like, holy shit, I found the best drug ever, and that's making songs. Uh so that's kind of the evolution, honestly. Honestly, now that I think about it, that's really it. It's like I took the the songwriting pill. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Was there a point you can remember specifically that was a light bulb moment for you to to really go full at the songwriting? Oh, yeah. What was it?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

So uh do you know Chris Williamson? He does.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Modern wisdom's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, so he's my best. I watched the tour diaries, by the way. That's how I knew about you and watching you open for him last year, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we did two tours together. But it was cool to hear you play your stuff. And in it, just side note, you were very confident in your like there was a few times in the the different series, I think there was a few videos, I don't remember. But one of the things you had said basically was like, I've worked very hard at this. Like, as if I'm deserving of being able to be in this position to do this because I've worked hard at this, and it didn't come across as like a cocky thing or braggadocious thing. And I could be butchering what you said, but there was a confidence in what you were doing.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

That that you remember, yes, you know, I know what you're talking about. This had to do with imposter syndrome, which is another I want to talk, I want to touch on this, but the story of how I started songwriting is sick too. Yeah, so the imposter syndrome thing, like well, let's definitely get to that. Okay, we'll get to that. Um, because that's that it's like what I'm what you're describing was my antidote to imposter syndrome. Okay. So it's me, Chris, um, and our two friends, and I think I had a couple margaritas, and we were just hanging at their house, and he had a karaoke machine, and he was this was not Chris, our friend uh was like rapping and being an idiot, and Chris was like, I gotta get him to stop. Like, this is so annoying. Like, somehow we need to get the microphone out of his hands. They had two microphones, so, and there was a Martin guitar. Chris was like, Zach, you've been writing songs, right? Can you play one for us? Like, do anything to stop him from rapping. And we set up one of the karaoke microphones on my guitar and one on my voice, and I played a song, and it was just those three sitting right there. And I like looked up from finishing my song, and they were like, and and I remember Chris just saying very simply, just do that in a studio. Just whatever you just did, just do that in a studio. And I'm not kidding you. The following within 24 hours, I called this studio called Orb Studios in uh Austin. I said, I don't know anything about this, but I want to record a song. Can you help me do that? And they're like, Yeah, sure, come on in and like run it by us. And I I did and I played the song for them, and they're like, Cool, like let's record. Uh, what do you want to do next month? I'm like, how about this weekend? Like, how about two days from now? And I booked it two days from now, you know, within 72 hours of Chris saying, go record that. I was singing into a microphone in a booth. And that was my song, Yeah, right. And that's my highest streaming song right now. It's it's not that high of a streaming song compared to actual, you know, big artists, but that song gave me permission to be like, okay, what happens if I do that again? Because some people liked this one. Some people like this one. What if I put out another one? Will more people like that one? I don't know, you know? So I did that again. And then I put out a song every single month for four years or three years. So I didn't miss a month. And now I have 48 songs out. My last single day in, day out, we made it in 90 minutes in my buddy's studio. Like I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I had it all in my mind before I went in the studio. He had the drums mic'd up. I played the drums to a click. I didn't even have any music playing. And then I had the riff and I had the lyrics, and I was like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And that took again 90 minutes of recording, and then we sent it to get mixed, which is where the magic happens. That's my favorite thing. Yeah, and the mix came back, and we were like, oh my god, this is sick. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, that's that's how it started, bro. That was the launch point. It was a friend, somebody close to me, saying, Dude, just do what you just did. Like it it's just it's so interesting. Musicians will play, and you'll be like, Fuck, you sound incredible. And then they'll record and it'll be something completely different. It'll be something that they think they project what they think people want out of them, and that's what they end up making and and and promoting and putting out in the world. When in reality, you just played an acoustic guitar and it was mind-blowing, it was great. I'm not saying that my performance for those three that night was was great, but I was basically given permission, like I said, from somebody close to me to go and do something. And that's one of the things that I've learned, you know, if my mom or my dad told me to do something, I I I wouldn't listen. But if my coach said it, if my you know, you you never listen to the people closest to you type of thing. And I've learned later in my thir into my thirties, these people are close to you for a reason, and you have to respect their opinion of you. I think people don't respect the opinions of the people closest to them, and that's a damn shame. You you know what is your friendship if you can't believe in the words that someone is saying to you, like your your friend. So when Chris says you can be good at this, you can do this, who am I to say, no, you're wrong? I'm not that good. Like, what does that say about our friendship? And so that was a huge learning thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

And it's like and the power of belief. We have to have someone that believes in us. Oh, for sure. You know, and it might just take one person saying, Hey, do more of that. Totally. And then it's like, oh, you thought that was good. Like someone believes that I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

The artist who takes, and and this is the thing, is like, who the fuck do you think you are if your friend compliments you and you don't believe them? It's one thing if your friend is critiquing you and you can't adjust to it, but if your friend compliments you, believe what they're saying. There's so many musicians out there that they hear good words about them and they go, uh So, how many of those people though, are do you think their friends are just being nice?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Because another thing I hear, because especially in Nashville, the town that we're in, just to push back a little bit, there's a lot of people that come from small little towns that are told, Oh, you're the best. You're you're so great. And they get here and they really truly believe that like they are the best thing that ever happened. And the reality is, and the market is, you know, the the great tell of who's good and not in terms of who makes it in Nashville. Um Well, we're talking about best is a comparative term. Yeah, but I'm saying like I'm just thinking about this one girl who just keeps going at it, but unfortunately she doesn't have the self-awareness to understand that it's not working. And and you just you know what I'm talking about where you're like You're not wrong either. So so like there's a delusion that can happen, but there's also like like in your case, you had the friend, you listened, you went and you recorded the music, and then the market responded to your music in a positive way.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

And when I say market, it's like a couple hundred people streaming myself. Well, that's good enough. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

And I go that's 200 people. Exactly. If you could say if I could sell 200 tickets, yeah, yeah, I could play a lot of gigs, a lot of places. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So it's like uh I feel like that's the important part because it's almost like a KPI for your music career where your people are like, oh, it's working, it's working, you know. Um so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

No, no, no. You the delusion. I I would love to touch on this.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

When the moment when you say good, better, best, you're comparing to something else. And I have been very good at never comparing myself, it's only like all I have is self-awareness. That is the only thing I have. The moment I'm not self-aware of like what music is to me and what it is, what my music is to other people, like it's over. It's done, you know. So if someone is, oh, you're the best here in Bumblefuck, Tennessee, and you go to Nashville and you're not the best. It was already over before you started. Someone was calling you the best. Just like the thing. Whatever, what's the thing? So, like I play a couple chords, I sing a little bit, and people like that thing. It has nothing to do with me, has nothing to do with good, better, best. It's just they like that thing. So you have to find that thing that people like or the thing that you like and expand on that just slowly and keep doing it, keep expanding on that, and then things will happen. But that loss, that delusion that the girl had, she was set for failure from the jump. You see what I mean? Like her assessment was wrong. This is in in fitness, this was like my biggest thing was like, oh, you don't have to do the bat the barbell squat because it uh you know, it can hurt your knees, and you could just do uh a leg press. That's true. But their assessment of the way that they went and did the barbell squat was wrong. So they didn't have a control. They're like, oh, well, you know, that that movement's not for me. It's not right for me. It's like, but you never did the movement right in the first place. And so for again, coming back to that girl who um who thinks she's amazing, already she's not she doesn't have the right assessment. You know, it's just it's it's like self-awareness is the greatest weapon that any artist can have, period. Like that's it. And the moment you lose lose it or don't have it at all, like just call it quits, it's over, dude.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

It's great, and then it gets into the uh imposter syndrome. Yes, because that's where I believe when you have the ability to uh critique yourself.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

So remember how I said Chris, um cut that out. I don't want people to know that I'm failing.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

I want to leave that in. So, like like I said, with with Chris That's why you sing so good. This is brought to you by yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

So the reason like Chris and believing in what he said to me was a way of dealing with imposter syndrome as well. Something that I always say with imposter syndrome is that it deals with the totality. Of your goal, not the minutia of it. So if I say, and I said this, I did uh a Musora thing. Do you know Musura or like Drummondo? Have you heard of Drummeo? Chad Smith of the Red Hot Chili Peppers covered a 30 Seconds to Mars song and it went ballistically viral.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Is that where they hear it for the first time? Yes. And then have to play it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

So I did the musician version of that, not the drummer one. I did the like it's called Covers on the Spot for Musora. So I walk into the studio, they play a song, and then they get my reaction to the song. And then I have a band, and we have to arrange and make that song happen. We have to cover that song. And if they had told me, hey, you're going to be playing Somewhere I Belong by Lincoln Park, you know, uh, and you're going to be memorializing anytime you cover Lincoln Park, you're memorializing Chester. You know, you I would have serious imposter syndrome. But the process was just put these in-ears on. We're going to flip on the cameras. Okay, they play Somewhere I Belong. I'm like, oh, this is a great song. I'm excited. Okay, now just sit here and just like arrange. And you just now you arrange. Okay, let's practice. Okay, we practice. Okay, let's get a take. We got a take. It's over. I didn't experience imposter syndrome at all because I just broke it down into the minutiae of it, right? I every step of the of the thing. With crit with Chris's shows that I opened for, they'd go three, two, one. Okay, Zach, go ahead. There's, you know, 1,300 people out there. I have an acoustic guitar and I have to go and play music for them. It's like that is insane to think about. But it'd be really awkward if I was like, I don't really want to go on stage. So I just start walking. I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm just walking to a microphone. I get to a microphone, I go, might as well plug in my guitar. Plug in my guitar. Might as well address the audience. Hey guys, how are you doing? My name is Zack Tellender. I'm going to be playing some tunes for y'all. Okay. Might as well start playing the guitar, right? Because you said you're going to play tunes. Start playing. Might as well start singing. So I start singing. Next thing I know, I finish a song, I get a round of applause. Like, let's just keep doing that. Half hour's done. Thank you guys. This is great. Walk off stage. What the fuck just happened? Right? However, if I look at that, like, hey, you're going to be playing music with just you and an acoustic guitar in front of 1,500 people, I would freak out. But again, I broke that down into tiny steps where I couldn't turn back. That's all you have to do. You can't allow yourself to turn back or else it'd be weird. So Do you get anticipatory anxiety? I do, of course. I don't think that I think it's impossible to get rid of that.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Did that tour at all? Because I don't know your performance history in terms of being in front of people and that many people and going to different, you know, cities and um countries and things like that. But um did that help in desensitizing you to playing for crowds? Yes, but through exposure therapy, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Ask any artist, bro, if they take one month off after that, it just like goes back to zero. You know what I mean? Like you're like, it's like you can get really used to it on a tour, and you're like three legs of a tour deep, and you are now doing a gig, you're like, I can walk up there and play. But if you take a month off of that, your first one back, it's just like right back to where you started. And so it's always gonna be there, no matter what. But the best way to again mitigate any of that, any of that, like I shouldn't be here. Like, who the fuck am I? You know, that's imposter syndrome. Why am I on stage right now in front of 1500 people? I'm not a real musician, I'm not this, I'm not that. But I'm like, well, fuck, I gotta do it now. It would be really weird if I didn't. And that's all my life is is making decisions based off of it. Would be really weird if you didn't do it, you know? And it's like, okay, I'm kind of locked into being a musician now. It would be really weird if you didn't put out any fucking music. So the imposter syndrome of being like, oh my god, I'm doing a festival, and like later in this festival, Zach Topp is playing. Who am I to be on stage right now? Um I don't think that'll ever go away. Ever. You just have to mitigate it with just doing big things, small things, over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah, I think even the greatest artists have imposter syndrome. Oh, 100%. It's inescapable.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's how you know you're doing the right thing, by the way. Is that feeling of oh, I'm not ready for this. Or I don't know what's coming my way. I have no idea, I don't even know where I'm going, I don't know what direction. It's like, oh fuck, that's the best. You're doing it right.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

So here's this question. Do you, and I'm curious, like with you or your friend Chris, do you ever feel uh do you ever feel good enough?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah, I do, but it's it's it it that it it has nothing to do with performance, putting out music. It has nothing to do with that. I think like when I'm with my daughter, you know, I feel like okay, you're good enough, Zach. When I'm alone with my guitar singing to myself, I think, oh, you're good enough. And as long as I have those things, I'm like, okay. You know, I have that base of that. But that those two things don't have anything to do with with performance. Like I might never think that I'm good enough as a performer, but that's okay. My wife thinks I'm good enough, my daughter thinks I'm good enough, my guitar thinks I'm good enough, you know? And and I re I really realized that in the last year because my daughter's turning one in three days. And so it uh congratulations. Yeah. You just had your first father's day. Yes, I did. It was really cool. It was really cool. Stoked about it. Um that's the one thing I I think uh is really like I need to say things like this because being content is to be content is to notice the good things around you and to really be happy, but also to be content is to not move forward. The double-edged sword of this whole thing. So you kind of have to balance doing both at the same time. Like I this coffee is was wonderful, you know? And I I love it, and I'm glad that I have it. Someone made it for me, you know, Niccolo got it for me for this is free, you know? But at the same time, I'm like, damn, I really hope my next single streams well.

unknown 29:33

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

So that is another thing that will kill artists. And if you don't have a bass that is outside of your art, like again, my wife, my daughter, my guitar that's outside, even like our vinyl record collection. Like, I I hold, you know, I'm looking at these, like I hold those in my hand, I'm like, oh, thank God for you. You know, I could be on an island, and if I had those four things, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

The word country politan comes from a real era in country music. When Nashville took country music and made it elegant, strings, background vocals, orchestra. It was country music with polish. I think Patsy Klein, Glenn Campbell, Tammy Wynette, George Jones, Charlie Pride, songs that still had the ache and honesty of country, but dressed up with style. And that is exactly what this hotel feels like. The kind of place where every detail's been thought through. So you feel the history immediately, but unlike staying right in the middle of Broadway, it feels tucked away, it feels calm, it feels like you found something. And that's honestly why I love it. It's where I go when I want to get away, think, slow down, have a restful time without technology. And when you're ready, the ryman and Broadway for about a four-minute walk. The Country Politan Hotel. Stay in the story.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

To answer your question, that's where I feel like, yes, I am enough, but it has nothing to do with the industry. Yeah. Because I genuinely think, no, I'm not. Like if you want my honest uh opinion, if I'm comparing myself to the industry, if I'm being an industry musician, I'm not good enough and I never will be. And that's like the that's the harshest truth. But it keeps you humble. Oh, a hundred percent. But that's not what I'm not worried about staying humble. I just we were talking about Stapleton.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Go watch him play, and that'll humble you in two seconds. Yeah. That will never stop happening.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

But you're the first talenter, you know. It's like, yeah, you're you for a reason. We don't need another Stapleton or another anybody else. And that's the beautiful thing about music, and especially like you referenced the some of the records behind me, like Bob Dylan. There's a lot of that in there. And he's a kind of a person that was a one-on-one. He wasn't like by any standards, by our, you know, uh American Idol, the voice society. Like, he would have failed all those. Same with Johnny Cash, any of those old school dudes that were the people that we all kind of learned from, or the people that we learn from, learn from. None of them were anything that was uh necessarily something you could quantify into, oh, that's good or that's great. It was just that that they made great art, but connected with people. It's again, and it's really about stories, it's an about it's about connection. And I think that's what you're doing well is the connecting piece, because I feel like there's a transparency and a thin wall between you and who you are, and then the music side. So there's not a big gap of confusion.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

That there is a benefit to that, and a and a so I would I really want to touch on this because um there's something uh and we we mentioned earlier, artistry is here, right? Anything that mentions other people and the consumption of the art is the antithesis of the art itself. So content, social media, whatever. That's just it's just not artistry. Um but there is this assessment that comes with music. This is good, this is bad, this is whatever. No, this is Bob Dylan. It's not good or bad. It's Bob Dylan, you know. Comparison is the thief of joys, of you know, famous quote. I don't know who said it first, but that's kind of I think what you're getting at is 100%. Yeah, it's not you be you do you, you be you, yes. And and when I so it's it's cool that if you think about like Zach Top, yeah, he does do a lot, you know, he had there's content with him on podcasts, and every once in a while he'll hold up his phone. But like for the most part, if Zach Topp just brings out his guitar, plays a bluegrass song, and posts it to Instagram, it's gonna go crazy, right? That's an artist who doesn't have to do anything other than their art. And what that does is the perception of that artist is like pure artistry. Um with someone like myself, people like when I do that, but they also they want to know about me. They want authenticity, right? That's the word of the year is is authenticity. But the problem with being your authentic self is that you lose this mystique of artistry. And maybe that's something that I'm after foolishly, but this ability to not talk and let your art speak is really what artists are after. And the point of social media is to do the opposite. Social media wants you to speak as much as humanly possible. They want you to be as authentic as possible. They want you to let the artist into your life or uh the consumer into your life. Um, and artistry is the opposite. So that is the I think again, that's what eats at people. Hey, you gotta make a lot of content. It's like, okay, but the more people see of me, the less special I am. You know? That that to me, that's like it takes away exclusivity. Yeah, it takes away. I mean, you're not cool. And I don't think I'm a cool guy, though. That's the thing. It's like I can't just like you know, like have cool pictures of me. It's like I'm I'm not that guy, and I'm I'm accepting of that. People want to see me rant, they want to see me talk.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

They like your rants. I came across that Ella Langley one where you were sticking up for her and all the haters.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Because I'm sick of I'm I'm sick of people hearing a live performance out of these speakers and and being like, oh man, Ella Langley really fell off. Like there's a crowd screaming in the background, you're front row, so you're like in front of the PA, and and like she's an incredible singer, she sounds great. You're just assessing it based off of that, and no one said that, no one's ever mentioned that, or no one, no one's like specifically been like, hey guys, just so you know, like your favorite artist might sound like shit on an Instagram story. So don't believe, like it's hard to say don't believe what you hear, but like I saw Ella Langley a video of her no less than like an hour after that video, where the guy was like, Oh, her voice is terrible. And she's playing um choose in Texas, and it I don't know where it was, but it was just her and an acoustic guitar, and it sounded insane, like it was incredible. And you know what I mean? Like, I'm just I want to correct the internet on that. Yeah, and so I feel like I have things like that that happen all the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

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SPEAKER_00 38:32

To go back to like this thing where it's like the only way to win at social media is to post a lot. The only way to win in artistry is to not post a lot. You see, like that ultimately is what kills people, you know? Mm-hmm. Like be a mysterious artist, but post all the fucking time. Like, what how are we supposed to navigate that? Um It's quite a dilemma. It totally is. But I just go, eh, fuck it. I'm gonna do it anyways. You know, I I can one thing I could say to artists, and I they need to listen up here, is you can have you can win objectively without knowing it. Um a totally underrated thing is the Spotify wrapped for artists. Um at the end of the year, you get your stats back on streams. And like most of the artists that are putting out consistent music, most of them, their numbers go up, their percentages go up. And those are gonna be the artists that still think they're losing. It's like, dude, if you were a business, I'd invest year over year you go up. You just you just never went viral and you didn't get a record deal, and you're losing money, you're not making money, but you're still winning, you know, and I don't think people see stuff like that. I was talking to my friends earlier. I'm like, there's really no objective wins in the music industry. So I found that. But another one that I've realized is every time I put out a song, I get more streams. That's the only thing I can count on is putting out a fucking song. So I'm gonna continue to do that. Um, and that's where I can hang my hat. It's like at the end of the year, are those percentages going up a little bit? Um, at the end of the year, did I get more streams because I put out more songs? Those are very attainable goals, and uh most artists don't think like that. They just think about I gotta catch the golden snitch. You know, I gotta win, I gotta win the game with a viral piece of coverage.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, and it's back to your lottery conversation. Totally. I like how you put that. It actually makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Free lottery ticket. You're probably not gonna win, but you can get some residuals.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah, because there's so many people that are so talented that are such great songwriters, and they'll never be heard, or they'll never be like a superstar.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Oh man, I had you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I I promoted a gig back in Austin's, the first one of the tour, and I did four pieces of content for that gig, and they were pretty good, you know, 30,000, 50,000, 60,000 views. And then I made a follow-up video because Sizza commented about Diplo, and I was just like, you know, like here's a big musician saying something. I wonder how he's gonna respond. Uh, and then I said, I'm also on tour. If you guys want to see real music and not AI music, come see me on tour. One of the first comments was like, How did I not know you were coming to Austin? I was like, dude, I have been making nonstop content telling people I'm playing in Austin this weekend, I'm playing in Austin this weekend. But they never saw that. Um, they only saw the viral video that I did responding to Diplo, you know? That sucks. That's brutal. That's where an artist is like, oh, I'm really just carrying water up a hill just to dump it out and watch it fall down the hill again, you know? Um, so I I totally resonate with any artist that has frustration in that way. It's real.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

So what do wins look like now for you? Because you said you were having a conversation and it was really hard for you to be able to determine what a win is. And one of the metrics was streams or songs released and seeing year over year growth as if it was a business. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Even though, mind you, I could take L's everywhere else, which I I am doing. I'm not making that much money. I'm, you know, not selling that many tickets. Uh, there's a lot of things. So that's those are L's, just big fat L's over and over again. And I think people overlook the W's, you know. Um here's a great example. I was in Australia and we played in front of 5,000 people at a festival. It was crazy. We had the place jumping, going nuts. The following day I played in front of 25. And I was like, damn, uh, this sucks, you know. I finished my set and a dude came up to me. He's like, I drove four hours to come see you play today. And I was like, holy shit, like there is no off day. You know, I owe it to that guy. And there was a couple other people that are like, Yeah, we drove two hours to come see you. They were, you know, one of the 25. And it's like, oh man, you're winning and you don't even fucking know it. You're just blind. And so think I I mean I I really put it on that gig too in front of 25 people. I don't care, I go hard. But like, if there's ever a point where I'm like, man, fuck this. There could be somebody who drove four hours to come see you play. And this guy, he was like, he started crying, got emotional. He's like, Man, you know, your music like just helped me through a lot. And he's he like Started crying. I grabbed him, I gave him a hug, you know. I was like, damn, that was that was the coolest gig of my life playing in front of 25 people in Australia, in a different country.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah, that's the biggest win right there, dude. A hundred percent. With my podcast, I think about helping one person every time. Like if someone listens to this and they get value or they get help or it produces fruit in their life, then it's a win. Totally. And I have to keep for me, that's where I have to keep my perspective. It's not about the masses or what CEO of what whatever is listening to this or what decision maker is listening. Yes. It's like who's the who's the guy battling it out in the trenches, or you know, we're talking artist stuff, the musician that's frustrated and or posting or whatever it is, and they're being encouraged from a conversation. That's a win. Yeah. And when I get a message, like you get a guy that drives four hours and it says, dude, your podcast did something for me. For me, I'm like, all right, like everything else aside, that's what it's about at the end of the day. It's that connection that's about helping people, it's about the human connection, it's about kind of what your your shirt and what you said about. If you want to hear music that is AI, yeah, come listen. And there's gonna be more and more of that hunger for authenticity. Again, the the term that everybody's using, but I think it's an appropriate term to use right now because of the AI boom, you know. It's like this is the gold rush for AI. I'm from California. I loved studying like the history of the gold rush and all that. Um, but the interesting thing about the gold rush was like the people that really made m money in the gold rush were the people with the shovel, you know? Yeah, yeah. They're selling the shovels, not the people going and mining for the gold. And I think that uh the authenticity factor is really just saying human connection. And we live in an ever isolated society where we're in front of screens more and where we're seeing faker perfect content and hearing music that is AI generated and perfect. In fact, I feel like why the Zach Bryan thing took off was because everything in terms of music production got so perfect, and all the vocals are melodyned, and everything's just like uh gridd out, you know, and you know, all the drums are just quantized and put perfect, everything's perfect. Yeah, and so when you have something that comes out and it feels a little like what one of these records would feel like, when you listen, like my favorite record in the world is second from the top on the left, Krausley Stills and Nash, three of them sitting on the couch, helplessly hoping. The first A minor chord that starts that song, he flubs the guitar part on it, and that's what's on the record.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

The take was probably so good, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

But it's so perfect, but they're really we're not gonna do this, and I love it. I love the fact that there is a screwed up, not technically correct guitar part and an intro to a song, and it's beautiful and it's really cool. And I just see this like the authenticity thing, call it what you want, but it's really like a hedge against the next decade of AI. Yeah. Artists, managers, labels. Are you looking for a high-quality affordable merch item your biggest fans will actually buy? Custom branded merch guitars from the graphic guitar guys, are one of the highest grossing tour products, often second only to t-shirts with 300 to 400% markups. They're an easy way to brand specific tours, albums, or a special project, and not offering them leaves real money on the table at any career level. With unbeatable pricing, top-tier quality, fast turnaround times, and hands-on customer service, the graphic guitar guys work with everyone from Stadium Axe to bands touring in a van. Do yourself or your artist a favor and see what the graphic guitar guys can do for you.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I think people will get more are getting more savvy. It just took too long. You know, it's just it's just taking too long. People people are catching on to the fact that like the AI slop is awful and it's annoying, and we're being forced fed it, and people are catching on to it. What do you think about it outside of music? You know, I think Chat GPT is useful. It really is. Like, um if you have a contract and you're like, read this, what's going on? Like that kind of you can't deny that use for it. Genuinely, and I think but what we get at is like this constant optimization and the and shidification of things occurs when we just optimize, optimize, optimize. Um and sometimes the difficulty of things makes it more fun. Um like we go up to the upper peninsula of Michigan, we have a cabin up there, and we go there, and all we had was VHS and a VHS player. So our choices were right there. And there's 50 VHSs. Grab one, put it in, watch it. You can't do anything else. You can't scroll Netflix, you can't be like, I don't like this one. I mean, you could you could midway through the movie, but you're locked in. That's your choice. Pop some popcorn, sit back, and relax. And that is the opposite of that is what's occurring. And I think people don't want that. People don't want a million different choices, they don't want a million pieces of content. They don't want, they they just want real and they want things that they get used to and they can just chill out. It's just this constant. Oh, you really like this version of this thing? We made a better one for you. It's like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. I I'm cool. I don't need a better one, or what you think is a better one. This is my biggest issue with AI music, AI slop, all of it is that it's being forced to people. And and from other people who think this is a better version. There's one or two people that decided you're gonna like this more. And most humans right now are going, wait a minute, none of us like this. You know how many idiots have we seen these crazy billionaires just saying what absolute garbage takes on behalf of humanity? It's like the SunO AI guy who is completely out of touch with reality, right? Millionaire, billionaire, whatever he is, gets to determine what music is to people. That's insane. He can't name a fucking Crosby Steels and Nash song. He doesn't, he doesn't know a single record on here. Fuck him. Why is he the decider of music in the world? You know, that's that to me is like, I can't stand that. I will take a hard line. Like, fuck you. You don't know music, you don't know musicians, you don't know the industry, and yet you're determining what's best practice for it. That's where Diplo was entirely out of out of touch, in my opinion. Like, and I know I'm sounding like I'm getting kind of fired up because I I kind of am. I'm totally down for a nuanced discussion on how we can use AI in music. But the moment that people are determining what the industry wants and they have no understanding of it, I'm just like, no, that's just we're not having a discussion about that.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, yeah. Because I I have a love-hate relationship with it because I interviewed a guy, um, Richard Casper's name. He was blown up in Iraq four times by IEDs, and he started a nonprofit, and it was uh basically for people that have PTSD to be able to cope through art. So maybe they don't have like limbs or whatever, but like they've given them different resources, and they started this thing where they were pairing um someone uh like a veteran that had their story to tell with professional songwriters here in Nashville, and they'd come in and they would have Richard who like could speak the the language and build rapport with them before they ever came to town, and then this person's sharing their story for the first time, and then they'd write a song and they record it with uh all in town session musicians, which is kind of expensive, but a super cool thing. Yeah, but now they're working on a thing with the VA where they can do a song subscription because it saved a ton of lives, so they're gonna take it, but they have the ability because they can't afford to through AI to make it rap, yeah, to make it all these different genres and languages, so it's one of those things where it's used to be able to be awesome for uh the purpose of saving lives, but it's very different from the avenue of where we're at in music at the intersection of artistry, creatives, being a creative for the purpose of creating art and being an artist, and then all of a sudden your art kind of just being replaced. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

I save saving so that is a great little I don't know, like problem that you brought up because that is sounds amazing making songs come to life to as therapy for people and the expense of having session musicians and all the expenses of that when you can get a pretty good horn section out of Suno AI, you know? Um and so yeah, I don't I don't I I I don't know if I know the answer to this. Like I I don't know if anybody does. Yeah. But I'm not somebody was like, you know, I can't afford to get a string session in or a a string section in my song or a horn section or this, then don't then don't use one. And that's that might be the answer, that might not, I don't know. But like for me, I'm like, I never thought, oh, I can just sudo it. I can, you know, but that's that is the truth. I heard a story, some um wasn't a pedal steel, it was like Dobro, and they just AI'd a Dobro part, and the Dobro player on it, like he's like, Hey, who played Dobro? Like, they sent a demo to him, be like, Hey, can you play your Dobro over this? And he's like, Who played that? They're like, Oh, that was AI. He's like, that was one of the best parts I've ever heard. And I was like, like, that is pretty scary. It sounded like a Dobro, it sounded like a human played it, and it was just smooth as hell. And not one person would know, you know, that that's an AI-generated Dobro. So if you're a musician and you're a country artist and you don't want to pay a player, do you use Suno? Does anyone know? It's like these are the these are the existential questions that get into and specifically around music.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

But there's nothing wrong with taking a stance against it, too, because I do think that with AI comes a lot of other stuff that is a whole nother conversation.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

With you've predatory if you're I mean, these guys at the top don't care to advance music. They're trying to make money and they're trying to expand year over year over year.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

More data centers, more like Yeah, that's why I don't want to don't get me fired up on data centers.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

That's but it's like that's how business works.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

The moment you decide you're a business, your business has to grow. You're either growing or you're shrinking. Yeah. What's the phrase? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not ready to do it. You're either growing or you're Niccolo, you're a businessman. Growing or failing? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

But I don't know. You seem like a businessman. That's why, like, there is the mission that everyone talks about, it falls on its face when you have someone making a ton of money off of it to a certain degree. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Um I think that's the sentiment of a lot of artists across the world. I don't think you're wrong. Yeah. When it comes to your music and what how I was introduced to you through those tour diaries, because I like I like behind the scenes stuff, you know. I always think it's cool when people peel back the curtain on what they do. And I feel like Chris was kind of a guy that is pretty private, like in terms of his personal life. He doesn't talk a lot about it in his podcasts and stuff. So it was fun like watching that whole thing, watching you open for him, watching you use your accents and like every city you were in, yeah. Pretending you were from there, and um just having breakfast and hanging and going to the gym and doing your guys' thing and seeing your friendship, and that was really cool. But that you were acoustic, just acoustic vocal, and to me, that's that's what uh the vibe I got from you. And then the music that you're releasing now is rock, yeah. Is that where are you? Where are you headed? What is your inspiration, man? Like what it's interesting that you're doing rock. And is it because you like it? Is it because you feel like there's not people doing it? Like what's your what's your thought process and your inspiration?

SPEAKER_00 58:09

I think my capability to play rock music was just limited. You know? Uh the reason I play an acoustic guitar and write songs is because I'm not very good at guitar. So like I had to either uh find out the chords to a song online and then cover a song, or I had to write my own songs, but I couldn't just pick up a guitar and just play random stuff and like that. I can't do that, so it's not fun for me. So and it was also becoming less and less fun to just cover songs, so I just started writing so that I could enjoy playing guitar, like, and it kind of worked in that way. But I never really had the opportunity to have a band and be like, let's make a fucking song together and like see what happens. When I when I grew up, when I was playing in bands when I was young and I was drumming, we only played rock, and that's all I wanted to play. My dad played rock, like that's my music.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

What year are you born in?

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Uh, 1990. So I'm 35. Okay, okay. Was it like Blink 182? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I I realized like I grew up on the Beatles, the Stones, the Doors, you know, classic rock, a lot of the stuff you see right there. And I would always be like, that's my music. But what I didn't realize was like, no, like goo-goo dolls, third eye blind, uh, Blink 182. The list goes on and on of like early 2000s, late 90s alt pop rock. That's my music. And I didn't realize that until I started playing, and then with producers and other players and studio, and like the sound just morphed into that. They're like, man, you sound a lot like the Goo Goods. Man, it sounds a lot like third eye blind. I can't tell you how many people and I didn't intend for it to sound like that. That's just what it happened. And so now I'm like, okay, if that's where I end up gravitating every time, what would happen if I just went there without getting pulled to there? And so that's where I think like these rock tunes that I'm coming out with, like that is that is the expression of myself right from the jump, you know? And now I go into these rights and I'm like, that's where I want to go. That's where I'm gonna go. Whereas before I'm like, let's just see where where it takes me, you know? Um because I did a lot of Americana, a lot of country, um, and I think it's it's hard. I I think on stage I just want to I wanna go, you know? I want to yell, I want to scream, I wanna, I wanna rock. But but I think um ultimately though, like I want to make pop hit like palatable, very palatable rock to me is like that's where it's at. What's gonna get stuck in your head, um, but what's also gonna be an artistic expression.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Yeah, because that pop that pop lane, just like country lane, that's pretty open, right? Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Well, the rock, yeah, again, I I have my this is like my one of my favorite things to talk about in is the genres of music. If the Eagles existed today, right now, they'd be a they'd be called a country band.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Bruce Springsteen probably would be lumped into Zach Bryan. Oh, it's a country artist. Like these are not we we've determined anything that isn't a through line from metal to butt rock or indie, right? So like indie is also an image, it's a type of person. If it's not, again, metal to butt rock or indie, country. If it has any rootsy rock type of thing to it, country. You know? If it's not hip hop, it's kind of totally. I'm just saying, if if there's a band, if there's a band and they crank their amps a little bit, just a little bit, and it's not butt rock metal, not indie, everyone just goes, oh, that's country, lump him in there. And you're like, no, that and and I think what happened was everyone determines everything is country. Everyone now now will think, oh, this is a great opportunity to make country music. There's so much money here, there's so much opportunity here. So everyone goes to country, everyone starts gravitating towards it. I mean, I I had a mustache, I was wearing my hat, I had my boots on, I'm like getting pulled into it as well. Um, but I think that that bubble will pop if it's not currently popping. And where what's the direction for country people or or Americana to go but rock and roll? It's like that that it has to, you know what I mean, for the most part. We talk how many people millennials talk openly about their love for Blink 182? It's absurd. That is like the most beloved millennial band. Everyone in Nashville loves Blink 182. Every country person I know loves Blink 182, loves Goo Goodolls, loves Third Eye Blind. It's all that coming of age music. And yet no one is going all in on making that music exactly. Like, I want to make an Everclear song because I love Everclear. I want to make uh, you know, again, Third Eye Blind whole album because I love that album. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

And no one's really doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

That's what I'm saying. And and I'm like, That lane's open. And by the way, I'm not I'm not actually just like, oh, this is a great opportunity for me. I also, like I said before, I naturally that's where I'm supposed to go. So I'm like much more aggressive in the studio now. Like I said, day in, day out took me 90 minutes because I knew exactly where I was going. I just wrote another tune that's a lot like Day In, Day Out. I personally like it better. That one took us three hours to finish because I knew exactly where I was going. I played the drums, I played the guitar, I'm like, this is it. And um it's a great feeling. It's a great feeling, bro. Uh and I I don't have that feeling about country. Some people do, and hell yeah. So does your artistry support you like a music full-time? Um, it did, and then it didn't, and then it did, and then it didn't, you know? Yeah. Um my wife is a terrific artist, she's a painter. Oh, dope. Yeah, she's incredibly talented and like sells a lot of paintings. So we are like oils, watercolors, um, everything. Like on one, on one um, she doesn't, she's not on canvas, just paper. You know, on one on one painting, she'll have she'll start with coffee stains, she'll like stain it with coffee and just like let it happen. And then she builds layer on layer on layer on top of that with oil stick and watercolors and like tons of different things. And her paintings are amazing. Like, she's what's her Instagram? Uh Caroline Pinney. Caroline Pinney art. Okay. And she she's more talented than I am, probably in that way. And also I love fine art, the fine arts then. Yeah, and and and more successful too. So we're able to be stable in that way, thank God. You know, so I can be a jackass and be like, babe, didn't make that much money this month.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

You know, but she believes in me.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

It's a bit uh well, it's a lot of people in this town too. I've noticed a lot of my friends, it's like they have a wife that's like a nurse practitioner or like something in medical or whatever, or they're in law, and it's like they're out there chasing a dream, making no money.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Yeah, but you also be have to be a like I I could pick up a job right now that would pay, it would be. Dog shit pay, I would be less valuable to her because I get to be with the kid for, you know, I start the day five hours, me and the kid. That's it. That's like wake up, me and the kid for five hours. So she can sleep in, she can start work, she can grab a coffee, she can relax. Now, if I was working a fucking as a bartender or taking gigs until 2 a.m., which I could do, I would not be able to do that thing in the morning. But hey, babe, here's an extra $500. She's like, fuck your $500. I need help raising this kid. You're right. And so that's my job is being a dad and trying to live out my dreams. I've I've come to this conclusion, man, because I'm like, fuck, I need a job. I need to make money. I'm like struggling out here. And she's like, no, your job is being a dad. Be a good dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

That's really cool. Luke, I mean, Luke Combs is the fucking man. Uh, his interview was the cool that was the coolest shit I've ever heard a modern artist. Yeah, where he was like, I spend more time with my kids. Kids than 99% of men. I go play a gig, I fly home. Fuck off, come back home, change diapers. I'm like, holy shit. I've never heard one artist say that. Not one. And he's like, I made the did you see the video I made on that? I didn't. The amount of money that he's missing out on is insane. Uh, but the amount of money it would take to to take him away from his kids is not a number. That's where I'm like, that is the guy right there. That is the guy. I don't care. Like, I'm not even that big of a fan of his music. I'm more of a fan of him as a person, dude. That is the coolest shit ever. That's my dream. That's anyone. It should be anyone's dream, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

You know, I've I've been a fan of him since I heard him talk about his OCD stuff. I don't know if you've heard of that. Never heard that? He was struggling really bad and he has his entire career with like really intrusive thoughts that would come into his head that he didn't want to like, didn't know it was a thing, didn't want to share it with anybody. They would freak him out, and then he'd start to thought loop and ruminate about these really like bad things happening, and it was just something you struggle with, and he was open about it and talking about it. Was this before he had kids? Um the interview I believe was before he had kids, but I think he's talked about it since, but it was just something you struggle with lifelong, and it's like a something that I struggle with, where you have a thought and you're like, you're convinced that you're gonna like do something bad, or you're convinced that someone's gonna do something bad to you, or whatever it is, and it's as real as day. Yeah, and then then the OCD, you it creates rituals to protect yourself against that. Well, yeah, for him, I think it was more just a thought looping. It would be like, it would be like me convinced that you're gonna like poison me. Yeah. And I'm like, it's actually gonna poison me. I'm afraid that it's actually gonna poison me. Okay, why am I thinking that he's gonna poison me? I shouldn't be thinking that he's gonna poison me. He's probably gonna and then like your brain starts to spiral. Yeah, and so it's kind of those uh uh you know obtrusive thoughts, and he would struggle with them real bad. And so I felt like from the get, one of the beautiful things about him was always his ability to be authentic.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

That sure for sure. I mean he did the. That seems like to be the the word that we keep using, but yeah, but it's like it's the horrible thing, yeah. It's what we want, it's what humans want to a degree, right? But I don't want authenticity out of prince. Rest in peace. Yeah, I don't want I don't give a shit about his authentic self. I want prince, dog. Yeah, you know what I mean? I want the the fucking greatest artist of all time, yeah. And that I don't know if that will ever be me. Unless the music just takes off, right? There are, I mean, I think Ella's a great example of someone who balances that. She's really authentic in a really charming way. Um, but she has a number one. Is it still number one?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

She's in Texas.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Something, I think something's beating it right now. Uh, I forget. But, anyways, I'm digressing. Uh she she is like peak artist, but also super authentic. And I think people want to see authenticity out of her. But like I said, Prince is a great example. Or I'm trying to think of another. Well, Prince is different. It's also a different era, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

Who knows? He Luke Combs is country. It works in country. Being authentic, stories, authenticity. That's I mean, like Prince, on the other hand, or even in hip hop, there's a swag, there's a prestige, Michael Jackson. Like, you want there to be a level of anonymity and you to guess, like Yeah, but anonymity and all of that is a privilege that you earn later on.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

And some people are lucky enough to have that privilege right away. Like this kid, Josh Sloan, do you know him? He just would never say a word, and he would just play songs on TikTok, and he just blew up. No one knows anything about him, who he is, whatever. He just dropped an album. He didn't even put out a single. He just dropped the album and walked away. And it was massive. It was, you know, he's playlisted everywhere. Uh, everyone was so stoked about it. And like that isn't somebody who does not have to be authentic, and in fact, it's probably worked to his benefit. Good luck trying to be that guy because it's not it's not gonna happen for me. It might happen to someone else if you're that good or whatever, but that is a rare thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

It would be like a it would be like a brand positioning from a label where they take you and they're like, we're gonna mold your image and we're gonna make you this thing that's gonna be like the iPhone that sits on the table, which when you see it there, you're like, oh, it's special because it's this huge table and there's one thing that automatically assigns value to it. And there's like these human psychology things that I feel like people use in marketing to be able to make something feel like it's extremely exclusive.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Well, what marketing am I doing right now? What do you think? Because I I know this answer. And I by the way, this was not like a purposeful thing, but now that I look at myself in the mirror. Oh, dude, I just there's no boots, I'm not wearing cowboys boots.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

I just think regular dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

You're mine, that's like like I have blonde hair. I'm I'm you did bleach your hair. Yeah, I'm not wearing cowboy boots. Um, I mean, this is a I whether I like it or not, this is a statement being like I'm here to play rock and roll that like people are gonna dig. You know? Yeah, it's and it's not like country is amazing, and I think we complain about it a lot. One of my best friends in the industry, Cleto Cordero, um from Flatland Cavalry. Him and I will bitch about the industry to each other, and then I'll be like, man, fuck country music. And he put on bluesman by Alan Jackson. Are we allowed to play music on here?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

Can I no because the licensing? I I don't, I don't, I haven't, I haven't got that figured out, okay, but I think it gets demonetized.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

So I'm like, fuck country music, you know, I just want to rock. Yeah, and we're in the car, and he plays blues man by Alan Jackson. I go, country's the best. It's so good. It's a it's originally a Hank Jr. tune, um, but Alan Jackson plays it, bro, and it is smooth. It's you're just sitting there, you're like, I don't think there is a human that could hear this and be like, fuck country music. That's how good it is. You know, so I'll like I realize these like little flaws in my decision, like, you know, being uh all in on this, all in on that. It's there's it's totally flawed. Because, bro, there's great performers in every genre, like really, really great. If you don't like, if you are, oh, I don't listen to country, it's like, okay, you just don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

And I it I'm not trying to invalidate your opinion, but like you haven't heard Bluesman by Alan Jackson. You haven't, you know, you haven't heard Sturgil Simpson, you haven't heard a lot of flatline cavalry, you haven't heard this, this, this. I mean, I could pull up everything. It's like just because you heard fucking climb tree, or whatever that song is by Luke Bryan, and you're like, I hate country, it's like, well, there's a lot more than fish hunt climb tree.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

Yeah. Well, again, back to your thing, you did a good genre, like if it's not this and it's not this, it's great, it's in country now, which is in the town.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

But that's that's gonna pop, I think. I think that's gonna pop. I think it's gonna that assumption, this this like everyone, this gravitational pull to country, I think it's gonna end. And the disperse of that, the dispersal of that will be like it'll get so confusing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

Like, what is country anymore? It's like everything from hip hop to totally to uh bluegrass.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:12

And I think it when it explodes, I think there's gonna be a big pop rock, because again, people are obsessed with Blink 182. That's a great, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

So there's a nostalgia factor, and then we look at cycles of music.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Yes. Okay, I I recently got really into 1975. I know I'm super late to that to that trend. A lot of their music is 80s, uh lo-fi, synth pop. I like 80s a lot, yes. And like that was a statement to go after that. I mean, Taylor Swift made a lot of 80s tunes, uh, pop music for a while, for like a couple years, was just a lot of 80s tunes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

Charlie Pooth made a lot of 80s.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

Yeah, there's a lot of I mean, this again is like, why haven't we been doing like 90s tunes in a less genre-specific way? Like, why isn't why aren't people making Everclear songs? Why aren't people making Google doll songs? They're making pop punk songs again, but they're not making these alt pop rock songs. And I'm like, that is what I want to hear about.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

They're highly digestible, singable uh choruses. Um with rock sensibilities, yeah, yeah, very much pop music clothed in like if you were to do the song acoustic, it's like what clothes do you want to put on it in production? And then that's really what it comes down to. But the I think the bare bones and the structure, the framing of the song is a pop song. Definitely. That that's why we like those goo goo dollars.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:49

We love the singable chorus, and that's where I think that's where people will go or should go when when this country bubble pops.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

Yeah, it'll be interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting theory, man. I I dig that. I uh I'm curious why you come to Nashville when I hear Nash Austin's like Nashville, and then I haven't been, but people say like Austin, yeah, it's a lot like Nashville.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

Um so is it is there do you sense a big difference between?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

Yeah, I do. There's no I mean I industry, like industry isn't a word in Austin, like it's not a real, it's not really a thing. I went to a gig at the basement just to see a buddy play, and there must have been 10 people in the industry, like ARs, they're just hanging out, they're just watching a guy. Maybe they pick him up, maybe they don't, whatever. But that does not exist in Austin. And when if people tell you it does, they're lying. There is what I will say though is there's people trying to cut their teeth in Austin by gigging really hard on original music. I think there might be more musicians playing original music in that town than any other place on earth, and I think that's why they call it the live music capital of the world, not because it's better than Broadway or better than whatever this, this, this. It's because, like, on any given night, there's 35 gigs going down that I know of, and three or four different bands, almost 35 gigs, and almost all of them are playing original tunes. And I think that's spectacular.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

That's which is interesting because you would think Nashville would be like that, but it's so it's not. Yeah, you have like the bluebird and the listening room. There's a the place you're staying, the country politan. They have people that come in and do live music um that are original songs. Yeah, it's like one of the few places, like uh that whole printer's alley section down there. There's some really cool history there. I don't know if you checked it out, but uh they won't so but it's funny, it's just an irony for Nashville to not be have all the songwriters because the industry's looming in the corner of the room.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

Don't fucking you are a DJ with instruments. Yeah. Play the sell alcohol. Play the Luke Bryan song. Sell me some beer.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

That's all they want to do on Broadway.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

That is it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:17

Bachelor at parties.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

So that to me isn't artistry, and every m musician on there knows that. They're just trying to make money, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

And keep their chops up, make some money.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Absolutely. Yeah. What it does though is it can that can jade you really, really hard and fast, especially if you don't have a gig to go to after that. Like if you don't have, like, I'm going on tour with so and so, and we get to express myself artistically through original songs. Um, if you don't have that and you're just constantly playing the same cover songs on on Broadway, that'll kill you. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

So you come here and you get the opportunity for industry and then co-rights as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

Co-rights record uh and just like it's another place, you know. I I I I wonder why people hate their own city when they talk about it. And Nashville and Austin, there's a lot of people that hate their own city. Um I think I talk to too many musicians, to be honest. Musicians are just like they're all bipolar, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Yeah, they they it's like human country music. You hate them one second and then you like this is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

Yeah, yeah. It's the same thing. Like, I hate Nashville. Oh, I love Nashville. I hate Austin, I love Austin.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Um Yeah, and generally we're just focused on the problem that's at hand, and so it's like an emotional decision to say what what we're saying. Yes, but it is a town of opportunity, that's what I think. I just I think it's the before we started.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:51

I booked a co-write for today. I didn't have one, I got one. I couldn't, I might I probably just having connections in Austin could do something like that. Oh yeah. Um but yeah, to be honest, I mean that's that's the real like power of National.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

Here's my as we wrap up, I'm curious because the lot the I said you were an independent artist. I don't know if I'm assuming that correctly. Was I correct in that?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:16

No, I I I am signed to a record label, but it's a boutique. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:21

It's is it like a distribution thing kind of?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

It's yes, they distribute, they have paid for an album. Kind of I'm like, but they don't work.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

They're not they're uh they're boutique as in they're not like a JV with like a Sony or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:36

Yeah, they're not they're not connected to a major. Okay, they're not connected to a major at all. Okay, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

But they would be happy if you were, I would assume, because of a sunset clause, and they'd probably make a lot of money. Probably for sure. Okay. I mean, they'd be you'd be silly not to get bought out or whatever. Because my question when you say industry is I was almost like, I'm curious where your interest lies within the industry in terms of AR, publishers, uh record labels. There's just there's so many AR people in this town. Yeah, so many uh creative directors.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

And I just, you know, what I've learned with places like Nashville and place like LA, just meet, hang out, expect nothing. Yeah. The Muscatine bloodline. I can't find this clip, but it was amazing. They're like, our assumption is we'll never get any help. What next? And for me, that is that should be any artist North Star. No one is going to help you. No one likes your music, no one cares about you. Are you gonna quit? Obviously not. You're addicted, like all of us. We're all degenerate addicts to music. So if you're not gonna quit, great. No one's gonna help, great, do it yourself. Like, go, go, go, go. You gotta do it yourself. The assumption is that no one cares and no one is gonna help. Then when someone does care and someone does help, oh, it's fucking great. You know? And and hearing them say that was like, oh, okay. Those guys rule. That band rules. Muskine Bloodline, in my mind, has done everything right. Have you met those guys?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

Haven't.

unknown 1:23:24

I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

My friend Hannah Dasher. My friend Hannah Dasher is big fans with them. Yeah, I know Hannah. Um connected. She actually just saw a text from her. I don't know. We were supposed to collab on a post this morning. I forgot.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:37

She texted me this morning too.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Hannah? Yeah. Yeah. You should write with her. Are you gonna have do you write with her ever? No, but I think I I would like to. You should. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

She's she's the best.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:48

Um, dude, I appreciate your time. It's interesting hearing your your take on things.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

Yeah, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to be here and speak my mind. Yeah. What can we do to support you? Go to a show. Telindermusic.com. Or uh just check out my tunes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

Go to just search Telender on any streaming. And the biggest thing is uh not passive listening. So like if people put a song, save it, put it on a playlist. Yeah, favorite it and save the song. That's the thing that you can do that'll drive the algorithm to get the the listens. Yep. Um talendar like calendar. No, tell, tell. Oh yeah, T E L A N D E R.

unknown 1:24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:35

See, I I knew you're now I'm not I dude, I don't correct again. As long as they spell it, as long as they spell it right, T E L A N D E R, they can pronounce that however the goddamn they want. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:46

I don't even know if I know how to spell calendar, bro. C A L E N D E R. Oh wow. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:55

Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

I don't know. It's not a word I spell. I put the date out. Uh last thing, I'm interested. What do you feel like the biggest thing you've because I I like modern wisdom a lot. It's probably my like top two. That and diary of a CEO are probably my two favorite podcasts. And I look at them and I love Chris's philosophical bent, and he's just such a smart, well-spoken dude. Um what do you feel like he's learned the most from you? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:30

Um I mean, I think he's blowing up so fast that I I hope that I can help him uh stay grounded. Like just like he can learn to stay grounded from just our friendship. Genuinely. Because I worry about him in that way. That show's blown up so big and it's like just his feet need to stay on the ground. I wanted to keep growing and pursuing what he wants to pursue, but like I mean, can you imagine the amount of work that's taken? Like it's it's it's actually insane the things that he does so casually now that are like massive lifts. I don't think there's a podcaster out there that works that hard. I don't I don't know many people that I've ever seen that works that hard to win, to to grow. Um and I know him as like my best friend, so it's like my job is to I shoot him straight, bro. I don't know what's in the world. That's what he needs.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:36

That's what people have your people that are gonna keep you that are gonna be honest with you no matter what. Yeah. What do you think he's taught you the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

I think I think he's taught me um how to enjoy being a hard worker. Like he he gets dopamine release from working hard. And for me, I would get dopamine release from having fun and like being this creative. And um when we were living together, watching him work was like super motivating for me and learning how to work. I learned how to work, you know? How so? I mean, I I was always told, oh, you're so talented, you're so gifted at this, you're so talented, talented. Um and it like that's like you know, saying your steak is too juicy, like, but it it hurt me in a way because I was like, okay, why am I not winning? Why, you know, if I'm so talented, why is this not happening? It's like, oh, because you didn't put any hard work. You're talented, but so it's like that doesn't that doesn't help me, but I would I would always enjoy my talents. I would enjoy, you know, performing or or whether it was sports, I was talented as an athlete. Like I enjoyed that, but I didn't know how to work hard until I was like 30. And I was like, oh shit, like this is what this is what you're doing behind the scenes. I'm like turning on a camera and going, what's up, guys? And like, you know what I mean? And I'm watching him, he's like so dialed. So that rubbed off on me. That's for sure what I've learned from him.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:27

And that's a wrap on today's episode with Zach Talender. Is it in focus? Because you keep looking at it. Okay, and that's a wrap on today's episode with Zach Talender. Please go follow him and shout out to our friends at the country Politan for hooking him up with the stay this week while he's here in Nashville. Also, did you know that over half of you are not subscribed? And the biggest gift you can do for this podcast is to smash that follow button, that subscribe button, because you know what it does, it helps, and it's the biggest help you could possibly do to keep us moving forward. So we appreciate it. It'll bring more guests like Zach, who's out here from Austin just for this podcast. Uh, and also go be nice to someone this week. Love someone, buy them a coffee. And I'll see you guys back here next week. Peace.