Ep. 4 - Real Estate + Mortgage: The Power of Dual Licensing | With Sam Preis

Want a smarter way to grow as an agent without waiting a decade for your clients to move again? We dig into the little-known HUD rule change from December 2022 that opened the door for dual licensing, and how smart brokerages and teams are using it to serve better, recruit stronger, and build multiple income streams that last. Sam, a seasoned mortgage pro since 1995, joins me to unpack the playbook: database journeys that surface real refi opportunities, equity reviews that crush credit card interest, and a simple shift from “one commission” thinking to a mutual-fund model for your business.

We talk through live examples, including a cash-out refinance that wiped out $60,000 in revolving debt and put a family on steadier ground, with zero showings or inspection stress. You’ll hear why consumers crave a one-stop shop, how a single agent can ethically coordinate listing, buying, and lending, and how this approach strengthens retention for years. We also get practical on systems: using AI to answer scenario questions on the spot, training teams to lead with data instead of hype, and building a recruiting story that resonates with independents and high-volume teams.

This conversation is about more than rates and fees. It’s a blueprint for becoming the trusted quarterback of homeownership, someone who can connect net proceeds to next-home buying power, turn equity into monthly relief, and show up with consistent value between closings. If you’re ready to align brand strength, technology, and authentic relationships, this is your roadmap to sustainable growth.

If this helped sharpen your strategy, tap follow, share it with a teammate, and drop a review with your biggest takeaway, what lever will you pull first?

Transcript

Warm Up, Sports, And Dorm Stories

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Real Mike Dooley Podcast. I'm Mike Dooley, nationally recognized broker, bringing you real conversations, real strategies, and real insights into today's real estate market. Thank you, thank you. We are here for another episode of the Real Mike Dooley, and we are hanging out with Sam. I wish I could say he was in like Dubai or Hawaii, but it's kind of cold there, isn't it, Sam?

SPEAKER_02 0:31

It is very cold.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Before we got on the call, we were kind of talking about you've been in you've been around for a minute in the space, right? You might know a little bit about uh mortgages and loan and banking and all that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Of course, yes, Mike. 1995.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Woo! That was a good year, you know, my first year of college. So that was a fun time. It was my last year.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I was ending what you were about to start.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Wow, I was just so my daughters are four years apart. So I was just explaining to my youngest that I'm the middle. My brother's four years older than me. And I was like, well, when he was going to college, I was going into high school. She's so just so you know, she's trying. I I don't know if this means she's gonna be a good salesperson. She's already negotiating with me to help her mom to help her go to a different school because she's like, oh, Evelyn's not gonna be at that school anyway, so what does it matter? Let's have school choice. She wants to go to a different school with one of her best friends. Let me tell you how funny this is. She's nine, and her and her best friend are also nine. They have been so for like a week straight, they've been on Canva and online designing their dorm room together. Is that kind of weird? How long have they been friends? Uh they've I was uh maybe three or four years. Now Cody's been went to college with their mom too, so it's basically like their whole life, you know. So they were actually maybe that's part of it. They were in a dorm together, Cody and the mom. They weren't in the same room, but they're in the same dorm. But here she was starting to have an argument with the friend because one wanted uh bunk beds and one didn't. And I was like, honey, you'll you'll like this. I told her, I said, Sinclair, there's actually gonna be a time when you go to college, there might be sleeping pods. And I said, you know, like the Jetsons, and she had no idea what I was talking about. So I had to Google sleeping pods, and I said, you know what? I said, right now, I took a tour through, and I know you're a big sports guy, like I am. I can usually talk about a team or a year and you know the players, what championships they have. Is that like your fun fact? Whenever you go to a party and you're like two truths and a lie, you know more sports than anybody in the room. Nah. But I told her, I said, hey, the Razorback basketball team right now, when you tour their facility, which is phenomenal and amazing, you know, I love the Razorbacks. I'm like, they already have sleeping pods. I was like, honey, this might have happened in dorms. You might have eight people in a room.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

I mean, you think about what we slept in versus their dorms look like today, it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Oh, dude, we had a rotary phone, we had a rotary phone that four people shared with no call waiting.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah. Well, you you'll like this. So I toured, it was like the 629-unit apartment that's a brand new student housing in Arkansas. At Arkansas. I'm glad for all our listeners. Just so you know, we do have uh listeners from Paris, and then I say Paris, Texas, but still they're hanging out with us and they're they're doing all the things. But they actually have, if you look at the kitchen, it looks like a regular kitchen, the cabinets, but when you open the trash can where the cabinets are, you actually push your trash can in the hallway, and a maid comes by and takes your trash. How crazy is that for students in college? We never had that.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

We had we had a trash shoot room, and as the week progressed, you know pizza boxes, and you yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Exactly what I was thinking. Somebody didn't know how to break the pizza box in half to get it down the chute. Some some rookie, some freshman.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

I hadn't thought about that. We had that trash room, and it was the big chute, and you just jam stuff down, and yeah.

Sam’s Mortgage Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 4:16

No, that's awesome. I want to make sure our audience knows me and you could have fun for the next hour and we're gonna have fun. But let them know how they really need to listen to everything that you're saying, not necessarily me. I'm just gonna ask the good questions. But if I look at it and I look back at your history a little bit, you've started your own mortgage company, you know, you've ebb and flowed through the industry from underwriter to all the positions. What was one of your favorite positions though?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

But Mike, I you know, the times that I love the most were when I was dealing with customers every day. And I know that that sounds crazy, but I remember I probably I got in, I was 22 years old, and I remember sitting in front of a couple in Ohio. We were in Ohio and an older married couple, and older, I mean they might have been 40. To me, they seem just so much older, and I'm much older than that. But I remember them just laughing. We had really good rapport, all of us, and they were laughing. And and I said, How did you guys stay together so long? They said, You have to be able to laugh. And I miss that, right? I mean, it was it was great, and they were nice, sweet, sweet people, and they just laughed a lot. And I I bet you if if I could remember their names, uh they're probably still together today, and they're probably still laughing. I was just bragging on your memory how good it is. You don't remember every single client interesting employee? No, I know I remember the interest rate and I remember the lender because it was my first loan I ever did. They were in Columbus, Ohio, and I can't for the life of me remember the name, which is terrible because I remember a few other customers from back then for sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

That's gonna be our homework for you. But when you talk about laughing, I think about Cody and I. I was not doing a lot of laughing this weekend because, you know, I just want to sometimes relax. I don't know about you, sit on the couch, and I there were so many great football games this weekend, but she's like, hey, if you're just gonna lay around, you need to do some laundry. So I found myself doing six to eight uh loads of laundry, you know. So I don't know if that was me multitasking or she was the real boss and I was I was her puppet, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Or you were multitasking in order to avoid the fact that she was the real boss and you were the puppet.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Are you a Keynes fan? I forget, and I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

It was well, it's funny. I was just talking to one of my coaches and mentors today, Gene Rivers. Hey, Gene Rivers, I know you're listening to all our shows. We love you, but he he actually grew up in Miami, Florida, like I did. So now I was I maybe you know what? I don't know. Some people say they're a certain team fan for the rest of their life. I thought I was gonna be that person. So I was a hurricane fan. My dad's from Miami, second generation. My brother went to the University of Miami, so I was a hurricane fan. That's why I'm a Dallas Cowboy fan now. Jimmy Johnson, Michael Irving, go through the list. A lot of people don't know Emmett Smith was a gator. I no matter what, I don't like the gators. Of course. And then Deion Sanders, uh, my boy, went to Florida State. So when I was uh going to college, I had an older cousin. She went to Florida State, and she said, Hey, I know you're thinking about going to Miami, and people don't realize this too. University of Miami is a private school. So I think my parents are like, please do something else. But my brother is a lot smarter than me. Yes, I said that on a podcast. He can save that for later. He's a lot smarter. He's better, he's studious more than I am. He's great, he's a stud. But I was okay student. So I went, my cousin said, come tour. And it was about nine to one, uh, girls to guys. And I think I forgot that everything the tour guy was saying from then on, but I said I'm going to Florida State. So one of the guys that I ran track with, Sean Keyes, and I don't know if you remember that name or not. He's as fast, he actually unfortunately uh got out of college, but he only played like two years. He is a stud. He was on my track team. He's faster than Deion Sanders. And I know Deion Sanders would say that too. But um, so he from my track team, he went to Florida State. I had a lot of people that went to Florida State. Danielle Musselman, uh, you know, Eric Musselman, so his wife went to Florida State. She was there the same time I was. So it was so I became a Florida State fan until Labor Day 2006, I moved to Arkansas. And I was uh only gonna live here for 18 months and move back to Florida and still be my Florida State fan. So then keep fast forward, I meet Cody and she said, if we get together, we're living here forever in Arkansas. And I said, Okay, I'm still a Florida State fan. We moved to Minneapolis for three years, I'm still a Florida State fan. And then 2020 happened and she said, Hey, let me sit you down. I love you, and I know we're donating all this money to Florida State and Arkansas. We're never gonna go to Florida State games. We live like 14 hours away. So then I became basically like a 90% Arkansas fan. Still love my Florida State. I still love my canes, but uh, as you know, with with work, the work that we do, when do you squeeze in sometimes to watch all the sports? You know, it's like, oh, baseball, basketball, all the things.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I have no love loss for your canes, especially for what they did to my buckeyes most recently, but I think they're still mad about O2.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Oh, let me tell you, this this game, and let's go into it as far as a podcast and a life lesson and a business lesson, Mendoza. Oh my God. If you follow him, his and I I talked about this. We met our 26 uh regional owners and leaders uh this morning on a Monday call, and I was talking about humbleness, thank his team members, thank his family, just everything he's delivering. Not only is he doing it on the field, but off the field, he's doing the right thing to just raise his stock more and more and more. So that's why I was gonna go into you. Let the folks listening, what is your current title? I know you have like not nine roles that you've moved to, you get promoted every hour. I don't know, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Only since meeting you, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, and maybe that's me. Should I take credit for all the promotions that you're getting?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Like when they ask Mendoza who he's grateful for, yeah. If they ask me who I'm grateful for, I'm gonna say Mike Dooley, the real Mike Dooley is who I'm great for because great things have been happening since I met you.

From Laundry To Loyalty: Rapport In Sales

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, so we'll we're hey, we're learning a lot and partnering together, and I'm learning a ton. But we might talk about that a little bit too. So people that are listening today and they think about it, and it took me a little bit longer, maybe to realize one of the things that you're an expert in, you're continuing to help people and grow in the real estate space. So real estate and the mortgage space is actually being dual license. Um, and I know originally there's probably some owner or broker owners or even Kelly Williams people that are like, wait, wait a minute, what does that mean? And I was one of the people too that it's always want to find information. Now, for the most part, if people spend time with me, and you know you do too, we're even texting and calling on Saturday, Sunday all the time as we move fast. Me and you move really fast. Well, this is one area I had some of our agents going, hey, we'd like to be dual licensed. What does that look like? And I was moving a little bit slower, but now I think it's one of the greatest things in the world. We've been able, through your help and through other people's help, we've been able to bring two independents. So over, you know,$200 million in business, 40 agents over to our organization in Calla Williams, all through one lever they're going to be able to pull is being dual license. You want to maybe talk about that for the listeners, just you know, 30,000 feet, what that looks like. And and and I would just real fast too, I was talking to someone. My wife, if she had 25% of the buyers last year that she converted, she'd make an incremental$84,000, which is pretty exciting. That's something that that perked me up and should perk our listeners up, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

100%. And Mike, you know, that like celebrating the success of the individual agents is great. And I'll I'll get into shortly about why that's allowed today. But I tell the story, one of my greatest successes since we took this on in February of 23, we talk about you a lot, is talking about helping you grow your brokerage at leveraging mortgage. Like for us, if I can be your partner, yes, show you how to make money in mortgage, overlay that onto your business naturally and easily. But having the ability for you to bring an independent back who had been part of your ecosystem and bring them back into your ecosystem, they were running their own mortgage, those to us are the biggest successes of all because that's true partnership, right? Yeah. Um, then you know, as you know, uh yes, I'm old as dirt and getting older, but I got in this in 1995 and uh from 95 until December of 22, Mike, HUD's position on dual licensure was that it's a no-no, right? HUD HUD stipulated that if you are in a real estate and getting paid as an agent, you are not allowed uh to actively engage in mortgage. And then uh on December 15th of 22, HUD actually changed their stance, which is huge, right? It opens the door for agents to dual practice, for agents to have more visibility into the transaction. And HUD is the one that made that change. And the beautiful thing is that HUD said, Hey, we're okay with it. If you as a state are okay with it, and Mike, for you in Arkansas, the state's okay. And we've really been able to leverage it here in Illinois a lot. As you know, I'm based in Illinois, but uh in the market centers here in Illinois that we've been doing this with the longest, they've incorporated this into their recruiting. So when they're recruiting an R2, they're bringing the fact they have the ability to help their agent monetize mortgage. And again, the success of helping you bring that indie back. We were able to help uh Pete, uh Pete Economos in one of his market centers, uh, he and Carrie Holzel brought on a team, uh, a huge team, I believe$70 million in sales, right? And I know that to you guys it's a cap, but what great visibility was bringing that team on. So again, a huge success. But as you said, the reason for this is in December of 22, HUD changed the rule, and agents are now allowed to be both uh self-employed as agents and W-2'd with Mutual Voma Mortgage as loan folks.

HUD’s 2022 Shift Enables Dual Licenses

SPEAKER_00 14:22

That's all I mean. I just taught a class last week, and we call it success coaching or productivity coaching. For the most part, people are new or they need to be re-energized, and maybe they're not moving to you said about capping. In a Keller Williams world, if you're in other brokerages, is basically we do cap. You don't pay um your company dollar all year long. But one of the things I taught them, and I love this, you've been part of this in general, is teaching people to build their business like a mutual fund. And I think that's something that we think about. I think traditional real estate maybe, you know, 20, 30 years ago is about, okay, let me have a residential transaction, and then now is how I get paid commission. Now, no matter who you are, you have opportunities. I could be a licensed loan officer now. They obviously have to go through all their different states and different places, they got to go through all the education, all the training, they have to pass a test, they have to become an actual mortgage loan officer. But I also talked about places have profit share. Also, you know, can you invest in a title company, an insurance company? And what I was starting to plant a seed with these people too, is you think about referrals, even in real estate and in mortgage, that happens in our business and that's part of our business. So I was teaching them, I said, you know, sometimes Apple stock, well, maybe 20 years ago it wasn't paying a dividend and it wasn't growing to the point it is now. But if you look at a gross stock index fund, if you look at some of the top companies that are in there, Coke might still be in there. It's only growing at a half a percent or one percent, but a Tesla might be growing at 2,000%. So if you can build your business and actually act like a mutual fund, that's where the win happens. That's why I start to teach people is like, okay, you can go as deep as you want. Is it you're gonna provide a referral? What does that look like? And I think that's something for our loan officers. We help, which is hard to do sometimes too, because people's mindset is I give you something, I get something back, if you will. If we can teach them to think about what that looks like, your margin mix might be a little bit lower on this, but I'm actually gonna give you more, more of those opportunities. So it's really something thanks to you, and I want anyone listening to think about their business in a mutual fund. Because if you look at any mortgage business, real estate business, referrals, you know, and overrides. What do all those people look like? I mean, just so you know, you can have 50 streams of revenue now that come from different places, but you can really build a great life, can't you?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

A hundred percent. And Mike, I think one of the biggest misses that we had as a company was we really thought that the referral on that buy-side transaction was the bees was the bees' knees, right? But it's not. Think about all of your agents. I think from the NAR report, Americans are holding their homes today for about I think it's 11 and a half years, right? That's that median number. So that means that no matter how good of a job your agent or you have done for that consumer, they're not gonna buy or sell again for another 11 and a half years. And this whole ability to interact with them and help them refinance, right? You're now earning income when they are not buying or selling. But more importantly, you're staying in touch with that customer organically, right? Hey Smiths, hey Dooleys, we did a great job for you. You were so happy with me as your agent. And I know that you're not gonna sell this house for another 15 years because we know that your youngest needs to graduate high school. But when you bought, it was eight and a quarter. Today rates are at six and a quarter, and I kept you on my mind. Just think about the value add for your agent to stay in touch with that customer. It's also gonna make them more likely to help them buy and sell real estate again. And that really, I think from our perspective, was the biggest miss. Refinance opportunities to get paid without buying or selling, an incredible opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I love that you said that. 2020, when COVID kind of happened, I made a mind shift for myself that said, I'm just gonna tell a client yes. So I do have other companies or other things, but just say they said, Hey, I need a tree trimmer. Uh yes, I got someone for you. And I love exactly what you just said, is we always say, hey, we're a family, we're gonna help you in any way you can. But then really you're just saying, come back to me in 11 years and I'll help you again. That's a way to do that. They might, to your point, and I've heard different stats or different things, you know, to your they might refi three or four times in that time. Maybe life happened and life was hard, they got credit card debt up, they're trying to do a pool, whatever it is. There's other ways that life occurs to all of us. And now is a time where you actually can meet a client and say, hey, I'm gonna be anything real estate in the world that you need, you need to help shopping your insurance, you need just being able to be a partner in that way and really bring someone in your tribe is a win. And now I have a lever. So this is what I love too. And to your point, if someone's average house is$500,000 or whatever, and it's and as you know, different people's credit scores and all that stuff is different, but still a couple hundred dollars, you know, three or four hundred dollars, I'm able to save them a month huge just by using me and helping me. That that just goes, I mean, by saying, Hey, I'm a true partner and friend and family, that's a win.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah, and Mike, as an example, we just uh uh an agent in uh one of Cody Gibson's market centers in Arizona, integrity first, Mike Widmer. Mike Whidmer just did exactly what you're talking about. He uploaded his database into our CRM and we sent a very simple journey. We call them journeys. We sent a very simple journey out to his consumer base and a woman reached out to him and said, Mike, I'm so happy to know that you're doing this right now. I'm actually in the market to refinance. So we did a$430,000 cash out loan because just as you said, she had about$60,000 worth of credit card debt and she wanted a couple thousand, well, fifteen thousand dollars to do some improvements to the house. Well, shame on Mike, and he might be mad at me for saying this, but he hadn't spoken with her in three years. And that house appraised for$50,000 more than they had initially thought. So he kept in touch with her. He helped her and her family out. And they saved, you say three to four hundred bucks. She had 60 grand in credit card debt. That's a little more than three to four hundred bucks. For sure. But he stays in her life meaningfully. And guess what? He made 2150 bucks. He didn't drive, write, inspect, appraise, stress out about a closing date. It was just here it goes. Let's make it happen. She couldn't have been happier. And he made a couple of bucks. And he stayed in touch with her. It was just a win for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

To your point, real estate agents, as much as they say, hey, have the 60 touch or 100 touch, they don't. And sometimes it's usually like, hey, remember to change your air filters on fall, fall back Friday, right? And it's like, no, if I show you something that says, hey, I'm gonna save you 500 bucks a month and change your life, you know, now she can maybe eat out an olive garden and do all these things, you know, save, actually put in a mutual fund, and then maybe even buy an investment property with the money that she saved. Well, the next time when she goes to purchase, who's her agent? Well, the opportunity behind that, if you really think through it, I love that you had that perspective, to me is such a win. And I was just real, and I'm taking notes just so you know. I don't know if we have all of our database up there. So if you think about it too, we say we want to help people. Well, this is another way to be able to do that. What a win.

Recruiting Wins Through Mortgage Integration

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And again, my my the guy that I work for, Mike, I and I know you don't have call reluctance. I don't have call reluctance. And I could call and say, hey, how's your kid doing? Is cheerleading still good? But if you can call them up and say, hey, how are things? We're seeing a lot of people with some debt, but a lot of equity. And now you're really getting to the nitty-gritty and you're getting into that customer. Yeah, you're you're you're becoming an integral part of their life. I couldn't agree with you more.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Well, and you know, right now on the news, and this is not a political show or anything, you know, whichever side of the aisle you are or not, but our our leg our government is right now negotiating to have a 10% cap on credit card. That tells me, obviously, that this is an issue and a big issue, and you know, affordability. You can't go anywhere without hearing that word 97 times a day. This is a way as us as business people and agents to be able to get ahead of that and help people in that way. So you can tie in, obviously, your marketing to that. Hey, if for some reason your credit card's uh, you know, right now I was looking this morning, and I know rates aren't all over the board, but basically we're right at six, you know, in some places. It's like, man, that's a great number. I've even seen some five nine nine. And I don't know if it's my own brain. It's like once it uh unlocks and I have a five in front of it, I'm like, I get I get smiley, I get energy, it's like it's like 80 degrees, I'm at South Beach.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Your brain is right, Mike. That's what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah, so you're seeing that right now. We are. And um, Americans are sitting on more equity than ever, but they're also sitting on more credit card than ever. Credit card than ever. And I think you're right. I think that when you're when your legislators are looking to cap the interest rate on credit cards, is because they see a problem coming. Um, and by the way, you know, uh uh shortly after 2021, it was like 76% of mortgages were at 3.5% or under. Today, 50% of mortgages are at 4% and over. So that's the other thing that's happening is there's more and more mortgage stock coming into the market at higher and higher rates. It's a very good opportunity for folks to start to take a look at making a change. And by the way, Mike, you know, we're we're a top 20 lender, and still last month, 40% of our business was folks leveraging their equity to pay off debt and make their household expenses go way down. I mean, that's a real race in income.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Wow. 40%. So if anyone's listening and they're driving, stop, pull off the side of the road, and that just tells me that needs to be part of your strategy. I also, I was looking through my notes and you said top 20 lender, congratulations, but I think you have a goal of top five.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

We do.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Uh we need to make sure that everyone's listening, you know, all the nine million people that download every day. Thanks for tuning in, that we're helping and helping Sam at a high level. So, to that point, what would it look like? Who can help you today? So, who are some of the people that we want to get in front of? Other market center owners that are operating principals of Kellow Williams throughout the United States. We want to have conversations with them. Most certainly want to have Zooms with them. And I love it too. The first several times, I consider you family now. It's awesome. We've we've broken bread together. We it's not like it's all like a Zoom world, you know. We've we've hung out together in multiple states, multiple locations, so that counts. But I think too, one thing you do really well, and I want anyone listening, is education. You actually use data behind that too. You have tools and systems that can get in and say, let me tell you a little bit about the margin mix, what mortgage is, what's happening in your marketplace. I found even me, and you've probably seen this many times, as an operating principal or an owner of a brokerage, I think I know my business. I know my business pretty good, but when you're able to un you know, kind of peek under the tin, it's something that I think I have the data for, the information for, and I actually am wrong, and I'll be all right telling you, I don't know how many Zooms or meetings you're on there. They're like, here's exactly what my buyer business looks like. And you're like, okay, you do a really nice delivery of saying I know they're gonna be wrong. But I think what it does is it shows we're true partners. And you use that word several times in the beginning. I love that. A partner shows, hey, here's some opportunity areas that we can maybe win together.

Build A Mutual Fund Business Model

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yeah, I mean, Mike, you guys are our partners. And I think that sometimes we we have that. I know you guys have something called vendor fatigue, right? Because everybody's after you guys for something, but we want to not ever be looked at as a vendor. If I can help you bring more people into the brokerage, keep your people in touch with their consumers, that's true partnership. And then in turn, when you refer us folks, which you've been so awesome about, right? You're one of our best evidences of success. I love talking to anybody, I love talking to him and say, Hey, listen, I'm just saying gonna say you know I'm gonna say good stuff. Talk to Mike Dooley, right? You have such a great reputation at KW that you're you've been a great champion, and we view you as an incredible, incredible partner. And you're one heck of an OP, too.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, well, we just said we thank you for that. Not because of me, I have great people around me. My wife always tells our assistant all the time, what does Mike do all the day? You know, he just he just does uh, you know, TikToks and podcasts and shows and all that stuff. As you know, the world that we're getting into, that's part of it. Uh, you know, and this is a question I was gonna ask you. If you look at your organization, you know, and you kind of look at vision planning and look at planning, I know one of the things that you're thinking about too is how do you make your booth at events really impactful for people to come to attend and have a conversation? But also I notice you're really bringing in, to your point, influencers to be on uh social media with you, TikTok and Facebook. Is that part, what is your strategy if you look, you know, next two, three, five years, how do you go from a top 20 lender to top five uh market share? But what are some of the things that you guys are thinking about as a company standpoint?

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Get into business with as many good people as possible, like you. You know, a lot of folks talk about an avatar for your successful partner. And Mike, you truly are our avatar. You're an OP, you're a company guy, you also have a team. Your evidence of success is if if we can help Mike Dooley solve any of his pain points, then we should be able to help others similarly situated to you. Um, you know, with a face like mine made for radio, uh, I don't know that anybody's gonna be putting me as the TikTok, uh, you know, the tick-knock rep tick-tock representation, but you know, authentic caring comes through in any medium, right? Be it a phone uh or a video, and and the our our goal is just to make our partners happy while always keeping their consumers front of mind.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

That's great. And this will be, if I didn't tell you, we'll be on YouTube, we'll be on Spotify, we'll be on all the things. But you know, when I thought about today, actually our talk today, too, we talked about why relationships are the real currency. And I think you I think you hit on it too. And for the listeners maybe that are not in real estate and maybe not at Keller Williams, we use a lot of acronyms in real estate, in mortgage, and at Keller Williams. So an OP, I know Sam and I have talked about it a couple of times. That's usually the chairman of the broker office. They don't always need to have majority ownership, but for the most part, they do in their offices. So I think we're just under a thousand, what we call market centers, so offices in the United States. I like to tell you that just so you guys know as far as following. And there's a lot of great brokerages in Northwest Arkansas or in the country or in the world, in Dubai. I know I got people listening from Dubai. You didn't know this, but last time someone texted in from Dubai. I don't know if it was my mom and she lost her phone and she couldn't find it, but I'm gonna run with it and say I have listeners in in Dubai.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I was gonna hopefully they're involved in chocolate, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Well, hey, you you're you're in Chicago. I know you're a foodie, and you have well, what's what's one of your favorite restaurants you've eaten in the last 30 or 60 days?

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

All of them.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

I live, you know, I I joke. If my kids ever knew that I didn't move to the suburbs for selfish reasons that really are around where I get to go eat, we are so blessed to have incredible food here, and I sincerely hope that the next time you're in Chicago, we can take you out to break bread. But I've had some really, really, really good meals lately.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Are you already lining up Atlanta, some really cool spots? You already probably already know the restaurants and all the places.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

We we always rely on a local person, and I actually can't wait to break bread with you in Arkansas. I've never been. No.

Refis As Lifeline And Retention Engine

SPEAKER_00 30:46

No, we're definitely gonna make that happen too as we're continuing to make it. No pressure. No pressure. We're gonna make that happen. I was gonna go for the listeners a little bit too. I got a few other now, now I got some things, and I'm thinking about it as a high business person, too. And you here's the great thing is you started your own business. You know, one one question I thought about, I thought would be helpful for the listeners and for you and me. You started your own business. And I hear people all the time. So I I guess I have some that I own or own pieces, but then sometimes I'm also an employee or leader. If you think about that change, anybody listening, you know, you went from kind of your own organization to now leading one of the biggest organizations, top, we'll call it top five for our listeners. Let's already let's already get our brain there. We're gonna be top five lending organizations in the country. What you know, what was your thought process? Why that move for anybody listening that's think about something similar?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

So when you ask about why the move to open my own or uh uh well, both.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I would say own, and then now obviously leading one of the top five organizations in the country. We're gonna keep manifesting that. Um but I think as our listeners, you think about it, you know, people are trying to make decisions. I've heard Gary Keller say this many times. There's not one business that he has that he doesn't have partners. And I thought that's really, really cool. A billionaire, one of the people I idolize and think is awesome and smart, makes good decisions. You need strengths in other areas.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

So I think that what what all of us underestimated to some extent when we went to when we when we itched our entire company over to Mutual of Omaha, the brand has been so powerful for so many folks. And when my boss and Gary connected on a on a phone call, um, you know, Gary asked Jeff, why are you the right person? And Jeff said, Because I'm still an originator. And Gary said, I'm still a realtor. And I think that what Mutual of Omaha has really given us is a phenomenal brand to still be originators and to still help customers, right? Um we would never have gotten to sit at the table uh to be partners with with KW if it wasn't for our parent company. So um, you know, as much as I loved having my own business and it was great, um, the opportunities to uh capitalize on these iconic brands, right? Keller Williams is an iconic brand. Mutual of Omaha is an iconic brand. And the opportunity to to partner those two together and for me to be involved in it has been really, really, really humbling.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

I love that you said that. People ask me all the time, you know, hey, why don't you have the Dooley uh real estate company? And to your point, you know, you think about uh 43-year-old company, I think Michelle Omaha's a 140-year-old company or something. So it's like you have these companies together that are almost 200 years old in our country. Our country is gonna be 250 years old this year, and it's like, think about it, they've almost been around. Yeah. Uh you know, you think about that, and to your point, that says something that shows people stability. You know, we're gonna build life together. What does that look like? So I to me the same thing. And also you get years of experience, brand recognition, knowledge, technology, all these things, and then we can be great where we need to be great.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

That's right. And I don't, you know, if even when you look around at other real estate firms, um, so many folks started a color. I mean, there's nobody that hasn't been affected or touched in that residential real estate space by KW.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Mm-hmm. For sure. Are you are you guys uh thinking about technology when you think about technology? And I know sometimes that's hard in the real estate space and mortgage space because you talked about HUD, you talked about these things. We have these, I'm gonna say handcuffs, we have these limitations to make sure we protect the public and protect everyone involved. But how are you guys using technology, AI, what does that look like in your future?

Strategy: Equity, Debt, And Rate Windows

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Mike, it's really, I can't remember a period of time that's been more exciting from that perspective. Uh, we recently launched an internal engine for loan officers to get answers to questions that they have. Um, and our intention is to actually release that to our real estate partners as well, so that those agent, those dual licensees can log into the system and say, hey, I've got an FHA buyer who wants to buy a four-unit. What do I need to look out for? And this this AI is scary in a good way, right? Scary as to how intuitive it is, and then it spits answers out to us, and then we'll go in and say, hey, these were right. If not, please correct them here. And to be able to release that to an agent who no longer is gonna have to call Sam up and wait for me to call them back if I didn't take their call, that's been immense. Um, and you know, the scary thing and the great thing about AI, Mike, and you you remember the dot-com boom is what was very relevant a week ago is obsolete tomorrow. There is so much changing and so much being adapted that it's crazy to think of where this can go, which also means that in the future, as an agent, your ability to be a one-stop shop for your home buyer is going to be facilitated so much more by these technological advances. If you as an agent could tell that customer, hey, we could do this or that, instead of having to wait for somebody, you guys become a logical, um, a logical uh really it's kind of like a fiduciary, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:30

I'm kind of becoming a good partner with them. You talked about partner with consumer. But maybe maybe I was gonna go a little bit further for you too, and for me, 2020, there's some stats around NAR and other places that said the average agent used to be 54. But when people restaurants close and some of these industries that led to people somewhat getting into real estate, it really aged down. And I don't know about you. One thing that I saw too is that some of our agents are continuing to be younger and younger, which is awesome, but they do life differently. They don't start their coffee at 5 a.m. You know, they're doing a Red Bull at 1 a.m. Well, to your point, I'm not I'm not I'm not awake at 1 a.m., you know, but they want to be able to have a tool to your point. Maybe they're working on something. Well, they can go to this AI tool you're referencing, which we have also on our side, brokerbot. Jeremiah's doing some great things, the same thing. He's loading our contracts and loading things that some of the offices are getting two and three thousand queries a month. So this broker bot. So you're gonna be able, so basically, if someone came to me, maybe I met them online, they're like, hey, we're coming from Dubai, we're looking to place a four-unit uh thing, and I like it. You said you plug it in, can first-time home buyer, can we buy it? And then you know what? There might be some things, even you know, tease about Dubai, but also there was at one time we had a lot of Chinese dollars from investors coming in. Well, what would be the steps to make sure I can be the buyer? What's the LLC? And all those things could work together. So maybe that online lead, they say the average online lead goes to 13 websites and they search for 10 weeks. And I've heard that different stats from Nar and Gary. So to your point, I didn't lose that lead. We always talk about internet leads and all those stuff, maybe having lower conversion, you know, it's like three and a half to four percent. Well, what if my team and my brokerage and my organization became 10 because of my partner, mutual Omaha and Kella Williams and different places or other brokerages, you know, it's like, how do you get that power behind that engine? I love that you guys are thinking in ahead versus saying, I think, I think before 2020, sometimes brokerages or mortgage brokerages or loan officers said, I'm the best. You're gonna use me, we're gonna do this event together, it's gonna be a broker opener, whatever it is, and you're gonna love it. Now I need more. We need more to be a partner. That to me felt transactional. And I know today we're talking about relationships and knowing kids' names and knowing all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Well, Mike, think about you guys as the quarterbacks of that transaction. The one thing that I think we also underestimated was that consumers want a one-stop shop. Um, one of our dual licensees was on a listing appointment, and she's uh it's uh Stacy Schuster. She's in uh she's under Carrie Holzel. And Stacy, I talked to the consumer about well, uh, we're gonna list your property for this, and I think you may net this much. Is that gonna be enough for you to buy the next home that you want? And the customer said, Well, we never really thought about that. And she said to them, I can help you with that. And the customer, and they're younger, right? They're younger, they said, You can do that for us. So she was able to secure the listing and the buy and the mortgage because she could offer them that one stop shot. Think about the power that you guys have. That customer, as you said, I need a roofer, I need siding, I need they're calling you. Mark Brennerman always loves to remind. Me of this. He says, Sam, do they call you for a driveway? Do they call you for a roofer? I said, No, Mark, thanks for putting me in my place. They do not. But Mike, you guys have such a powerful position in that life cycle, that that home ownership life cycle. I think it's it's it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

It is brilliant what you just said. And I'll say that again. It was brilliant what you just said because I think about uh some of the biggest companies in the world. So Netflix is one of them. You know, if you look at Walmart, you look at Amazon, these are membership-based companies. Mark King, a friend of both of ours, you know, he was one time I was on a thing and he said the average American has$734 in memberships monthly that they don't even know they have if you really start going through. You got Walmart Plus, you got Amazon, you got all these things.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

I had to buy that one football game for my husband.

Partnerships, Brand Power, And Scale

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Exactly. Credit card. People don't, it's a$4.95 to have a credit card, too. You really start going through and you unwrapping. You don't go to Amazon and say, oh no, I only buy my furniture from this place. Oh no, I only buy my paper towels from this place. Oh, Walmart, I I don't actually Walmart's met you. They're meeting you live where you are, they're meeting you online, now they're delivering it to your door. Well you just said you think about the future of real estate with the real estate agent kind of being the quarterback and being able to go, okay, now I can be part of a loan officer organization. Okay, great. I can, you know, what does that look like for PC insurance? And all those things, you're gonna see a future where the one high-level business person is meeting their home management needs.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

So now we're not talking about, okay, I just need a fiduciary for the real estate. What do I need from home management? And to your point, if they're staying in their house 10, 12 years, now I can be able to help them along the journey versus just going, oh, okay, interest rates. Actually, they went to four. Boom, let's do something, let's make a move. Oh, your kid wants to buy a place in college, let's go ahead and pull some of that equity and buy them investment property. So that's a strategist, right? If you guys can't see online, he's he's nodding, and not be not because uh I said something great or I did say something great. I don't know, is that you know what I would say as partners, we're connecting because we realize where the future is going. So any of our listeners today, depending on your level of real estate or mortgage loan officing, if you could start to connect those dots and say, how do you become a high-level business person? That's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Mike, you guys, we all have the power to change people's lives. They just have to listen to us, and we have to have something good to say. And, you know, the ability to finance things is the ability to acquire them. And if you have a plan, if you have a property for them to acquire and you have a plan for them as to how to acquire it, think about how much you're doing for that family. And you're right.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I was gonna go a couple more little nuggets for some of our listeners because me and you we're having fun. I know I told you we're gonna talk 35 minutes, we're going for we're going longer than that. We're having fun. Is relationship, I know, is one of your key things, you know, and and do you have, if you think about any listener, do you have a strategy around that or a system? Well, what what I mean is right now it's like, okay, the there's certain levels, you probably get you probably have 400 texts that came in just in these 42 minutes. So do you have some sort of strategy or system around that? If anyone's new or they're getting started, you know what does it look like that you have that's just saying, I'm just making this up. I know in real estate some people have every quarter, I'm gonna talk to the last name in R. And I know it's for me, it feels like it's happening authentic and organically to you. It's just kind of who you are when you jive with someone. But it sometimes when you get so large, like like you are, if you will, and you get so many different people, you can't work seven days a week, you know, 24-7. Do you have is it is it teaching and coaching maybe some of your people how to do that? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Uh Mike, it's my biggest challenge. I'm terrible at leveraging um because I think you're right. Um what is uh my our our my boss Jeff, my my Gary, if you will, you know, technology is designed to make it easier for us to make those calls to people, but it is not designed to make the calls to people. And I and I think that that you you talk about that, it's very valid, and you're right. We do a lot of great communication on the weekends, Mike, because we get those 400 texts a day from people. I try my very best to make a genuine phone call to somebody and remember the conversations that we had and remember what it is about them that connected us to one another, and then make the phone calls, right? I mean people think that a total expert CRM contact is the same as hey Mike, how are you? How's Cody? How are the Curtis? How is the Curtis team doing, right? You you just have to, you know, you know how hard it is, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Oh yeah. Well, I I you know what I tell my assistant this, and I think you're you're realizing this and I do too. Right now, me and you have pretty good memories. Well, you know what? If we start going, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, right now that's been a great tool for us. But as we really want to stay in longevity and stay in business for a long time, we'll have to figure out some systems and tools. One of the things I was actually just meeting, I meet my executive assistant, Michelle, she's awesome and helps Cody and I. She's great. One thing that she does is she grits her way. So if somebody's not doing it fast enough or the right way or whatever, she just grabs it. I got it, let me own it. And one thing that I continue to coach and tell her is I say, hey, even on our team, what if we're 100 people? In our market center, we're a thousand people. In our brokerage, you know, we're 300,000 people. You can't grit yourself, you can't grit your way to doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

So we have to figure out some things together. And then when I'm talking to her, I'm talking to myself too. We have to figure out tools, either we're missing a person, a system, or a tool. So a lot of times I always say I say all the time, I need the data. So I love that you use that too, you're lead with data. And I wrote that down. So did you say 40% of loans that have gone through the shop have actually been refines?

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Not just refines, Mike. Cash out refines. And I do have to pay you a compliment. I might never have to, but I want to. Um, I have to tell you that whatever it is that you're doing from the perspective of staying in touch with folks, um, I'm convinced that there's some intricate system behind the scenes, and it doesn't matter what it is that the reality is, you do a really good job of communicating in a way that makes people feel special. And I think that more than anything, it's because you're with that person on that call or that text or that email, and you're just letting them know in a genuine and authentic way that you're thinking about them at that moment in time. And that's my takeaway from every interaction that I've had with you is you're a genuine person who always makes the person that you're communicating to feel like not just a form email or a form text or a form call.

Tech And AI To Empower Agents

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I I appreciate the compliment, and that means the world, but uh what I would say as a business person, to your point, and by the ceiling, there's a there when you think about, and today, you know, we're talking about relationships and all that. What I meant is you there's only so many times in the day. One thing is I have about a thousand texts that I haven't read. And I heard someone say this, I was in a class, and they said, Well, that's their priority, not my priority. And I think a lot of times when we went right now, how many emails can we ignore? A lot of people do. There's a lot of stuff in there. Text is starting to become that same way. Same way. You're starting to get text and it's starting to come through because there is a lot of spam and you get on list and stuff. And to your point, how do you how do you funnel through that? One of the things that I've continued to do or work to do is kind of work my calendar. So about 95% of the time, if I could stick to my calendar, then that's my priority. To your point, you're a priority, I'm a priority. We're growing each other's business and life, but also there's people around us that were affecting their life and their business. What does it look like? So sometimes I would challenge any listener right now. If you're gonna reach out to someone, a cold text, here's what I would do. Maybe a couple little research to know Sam loves the hurricanes. Well, you learned that from this podcast. He doesn't, right? He's frustrated with that. But maybe know a little bit about their sports team, look them up on LinkedIn, maybe Facebook, maybe find out you talked about Pete. We love Pete, he's awesome. Have a mutual connection and say, hey, Pete, do you mind? I'm gonna reach out to Sam. Can you send him a text? And that would be my learning for anyone listening is had now text is becoming like the old email. You're gonna have to go a step further to make that warm up quicker. That's one of the things that I think about in the roles as I continue to add more people. In our region, 6,000 agents now, which is phenomenal, amazing. Our region's kicking butt. We did some results today, we're doing really good, some really good stuff. But what does that look like? All 6,000 people need to know, hey, we're available. How can we help you? What does that look like? And it can't be, hey, I have a thousand texts, you're not important, because that would never slide with anyone that's in your world or your organization.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

100% correct. And Mike, whatever it is that you're doing, it's great because when you make an introduction, it's always a group introduction, and there's always a response. So when I say that you're a great connector and you've been a great champion, it's a fact because anytime you make an introduction, the person who's being introduced always responds. I can't tell you how many times we have an introduction text and the other side is silent. Never is that the case with you. So again, whatever it is that you're doing, Mike, it's highly effective.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

You're gonna be on the show every week. You keep piping me up like this. You know, it's gonna be a good idea. But I I would I would go a step further to your point. You also, anyone listening that gand new in the business, it does you it shows grit, it shows hustle because they know whatever I'm gonna do, I'm gonna work seven days a week, I'm gonna outwork them, I'm gonna work hard with them, whatever that looked like. So they can know if I'm sending something, they can count on it. Now, I've had it's funny, I've had some coaching, maybe more specifically for my wife. Sometimes she's like, hey, whenever you send a text, can you give me a couple more bullet points? I've sent her clients sometimes and I said, Hey, meet my grandwife or whatever. And she's like, Oh, who's the client? Who's the people? Right, you have to do the message.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

As as we're wrapping up, too, which has been a lot of fun. Uh any any lessons though that you want to think about for our listeners as you think about you and the future, like right now, what are you how are you investing yourself? How are you reading, podcasts, books, what are you watching? What's something that people should say? Oh, okay, I like that. I should do that.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Um, you know, Mike, I have a garden. Oh, I like that. I didn't know that. See, I'm writing that down. It's a rooftop garden. Okay. In Chicago, our growing season's about 11 days. Um, but I love the nature of gardening, and I think that the metaphor of gardening is applicable everywhere in life. So in the spring, I plant little seedlings and then I water them every day. And some days you can see change and other days you can't see change. But as long as you're consistent with what it is that you do, the results are going to come up. And the garden is really the perfect example for it. I had to build the garden, fill it with sand, you know, not sand, dirt, tops, all that stuff, and plant. But then I water every day and I trim every day. And when I'm supposed to, I get my tomatoes, my cucumbers, my peppers, and every and and it's just it's consistency. And it's also been terrific for my kids since they were little because they get to see that this is the cycle. Well, all of the stuff that you brought up, and you have such a good pulse on things, but all the stuff that you brought up, technology and AI and all of that, uh they're there to enhance the core activity, that gardening that we do, if you will. And they're not a substitute for it. Makes it easier. Perhaps you can have more plants, a bigger garden, you know, but still you've got to get out there and take the reps every single day. And I think what is it? The best ability is availability. And I'm I'm not real good at a lot of things, but to a fault, I do my very, very best to be available. And I feel the same way from you. So if I were advising anybody considering getting into mortgage or getting into real estate, they're the same business. You've got to show up and you've got to be available.

One-Stop Shop: Listing To Lending

SPEAKER_00 52:50

I love that you said garden as an example. I think that's super cool, is that now we're so attached to our phones, YouTubes, and our computers. So that's a different skill. And it gives our brain, you know, you hear a lot in the news about mental health and all these things. We need to anytime we change one of the things that I love doing right now is I'm doing rucking. I don't know if you know that is basically by my house. I actually live on a dirt road, even though it's in town, it's going to be paved, I'm sure, anytime now that the city keeps encroaching, encroaching, encroaching. But I throw a 25-pound weight on and I do an hour. I listen to a podcast like this one. So remember, subscribe, share, do all the things, five stars. But I get some, I educate myself, but I'm in nature. I'm looking at cows, I'm hanging out, I'm not on my phone, I'm just relaxing. It's just so peaceful. It's one of the favorite things that I do. So thank you for sharing that. I think that's so cool. I want to thank you and thank our sponsor, Mutual Omaha Mortgage, for helping us get this show and get it out to Dubai, to Paris, Texas, Paris, Arkansas, Colorado, Chicago, all over the world. It's been a lot of fun. Sam, I think you're my 13th or 12th guest. So we have actually in the hopper, and we're going to launch any day now, which we're pretty excited about. But thank you for coming. Thank you for your partnership. Thank you for joining and everything. Have a great, great week and month.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Peace, Mike. See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Thanks for listening to the Real Mike Dooley Podcast. Subscribe, share, stay real. I'm Mike Dooley. Until next time.