Moving Aging Parents: How to Downsize With Dignity and Less Stress

What happens when an aging parent needs to move, but no one knows where to begin?

In this episode of Real Estate Connections, Mary Foerster talks with Nicole Ramer, founder and owner of Organized Haven and home to Safe Moves for Seniors Polk. Nicole and her team help older adults and their families navigate organizing, downsizing, aging in place, senior relocation, estate cleanouts, and home transitions with confidence, compassion, and peace of mind.

Nicole explains why a senior move is not just a physical move. It is a life transition.

Mary and Nicole discuss the emotional weight of sorting through decades of belongings, the stress that can arise between parents and adult children, and why families need to begin these conversations long before a crisis. Nicole shares how her team uses space planning, careful listening, organizing systems, and compassionate decision-making to help seniors decide what will fit, what should be passed on, what can be donated, and what truly matters.

This conversation also explores the reality of aging in place, chronic disorganization, hoarding, cognitive decline, long-distance caregiving, and the overwhelming number of decisions that can come with every object in a home.

Nicole also shares the mission behind Safe Moves for Seniors Polk, which helps older adults who cannot afford move management services but still deserve safety, dignity, and support.

Whether you are helping an aging parent, thinking ahead for yourself, downsizing after decades in one home, or supporting clients through a major life transition, this episode offers practical guidance and a deeply human reminder: downsizing is not about living with less. It is about making room for more freedom, safety, peace of mind, time with family, and confidence in what comes next.

Nicole Ramer is the founder and owner of Organized Haven, home to Safe Moves for Seniors Polk. For more than a decade, Nicole and her team have helped older adults and their families navigate organizing, downsizing, aging in place, senior relocation, estate cleanouts, estate sales, donation coordination, and home resettling.

Nicole is a nationally recognized speaker, educator, and advocate for proactive aging. She is also the author of Caring Through Clutter: How Caregivers Can Create a Safer, Simpler Home for Their Loved Ones, Chapter 2 of Aging in Place Conversations: The Caregiver’s Edition. Through her work, Nicole helps families begin important conversations before a crisis arises and supports older adults through transitions with dignity, compassion, and peace of mind.

Guest Links

Website:
 www.organizedhaven.com

Safe Moves for Seniors Polk:
 www.safemovesforseniors.org/lakeland

Facebook:
 www.facebook.com/organizedhaven

YouTube:
 https://www.youtube.com/@organizedhaven

Instagram:
 www.instagram.com/organizedhaven

LinkedIn:
 https://www.linkedin.com/in/nramer/

This episode is intended for informational purposes only and does not constitute financial or investment advice.

Connect with Mary: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-foerster-realestate/

https://www.instagram.com/realestateconnectionspod/

Real estate is about more than buying and selling property. It is connected to how we live, build wealth, care for our families, navigate change, and plan for what comes next.

On Real Estate Connections, host Mary Foerster brings together trusted professionals, thoughtful conversations, and practical information to help you make more confident decisions about your home, finances, and future. Episodes explore home buying and selling, downsizing, aging in place, multigenerational living, real estate investing, renovations, caregiving, financial planning, and the personal transitions that often accompany a move.

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Did you know that the average home has 300,000 items in it? Oh, I can't believe it. But anyway, what if you decided to move? How would you attack that project? Well, there are professionals all over the place. They're called Move Managers. There's a whole association of Move Managers. But today we're gonna hear from Nicole Ramer, who is a senior Move Manager, because that can be a really special, a very special time in life to make that transition. And you'll hear from Nicole that she is more than just an organizer. She is a people person, and she understands humanity and the humanity of us. As we separate from our belongings, or we expand our belongings as we move our belongings, help me welcome this lovely Nicole Ramer. Welcome to Real Estate Connections podcast, where relationships open doors. I'm Mary Foerster, and housing is a universal need. We are often thinking about our existing housing, our future housing, that possibly of family members. This is where you're gonna hear the issues and the people who are working the issues every day. Please hit subscribe and like if you find this podcast helpful to you. Thank you. Hello, and welcome back to Real Estate Connections podcast. And today we have a really special guest. We have Nicole Ramer, a senior move manager, who I've met recently through a dear friend, a common friend, a friend in common, Ryan Hegarty. And it's so wonderful to have you today, Nicole. And I'm learning all about senior moving that I had no idea was this level of sophistication and development. And what a treat to get to know you today. Thank you so much, Mary. It's good to meet you as well. And I've enjoyed getting to know you a little better too through Ryan. He's a great friend and colleague. And so I really appreciate him and this connection. Yes, and that's really what this is all about. This is all about connections. And I am so impressed by the work that you have described to me that you do with typically older people as they are facing a move. And I am struck by the mission you're on. And as I had mentioned to you earlier, the certifications that you have acquired, can you tell me a little bit what's really important about having these certifications as you're dealing with this older population? Yeah, so it's interesting, Mary. I didn't know that this existed either. And I was already doing it. What I mean by that is I started off organizing homes for everyday people who weren't moving at all. And it led me to my work with serving the older adult population who is downsizing and moving. But where I started was with my own project as a new mom, working 60 hour weeks far from home driving I-4 for those who know the Central Florida area. I-4 is my connector to every other city here in Central Florida outside of Lakeland. And I discovered the need again in my own house that was 880 square feet. It's my first home, small home. It's the size of the homes that I'm typically today moving my senior clients into because they're downsizing from a bigger space. But why I said I didn't know that it wasn't me who invented senior move management is because I found by accident the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. And that is an association that is 24 years old and was initially created by a handful of women who had discovered the need as well in their own markets and created this association out of it over time that I am so grateful to even now 10 years into my membership with it. And now a board member and president-elect for our 25th anniversary that will be next year. And without this association, I really wouldn't know all that it takes to help someone through not just the physical transition, but the emotional one as well, especially if there's any chronic disorganization and hoarding or if there's any dementia or cognitive decline. And it's when a move becomes a transition, a life transition, that is oftentimes impossible for the senior and their loved ones to do without support because hiring a traditional mover, it's just one piece. It's an important piece of the project, the move and move day itself. But it's all of the work that comes before, during, the planning stages, and then after the move is complete, that really makes the difference. And that's what senior move management is all about. It's fascinating. I have so many thoughts right now. One, Carl and I are in our 70s. And if we were to move, we would expect that we would do what we always did in terms of getting the boxes and the whatever. But I have to tell you, there are areas of this house that I have no idea how we're going to be organized. Should Carl predecease me? Or should our daughter have to take over in any way? Do you have a typical client that you could explain? A family member calls you, or maybe a part of a couple calls you, we're going to move and we don't know where to begin now. We're in our 70s or 80s. How can you help us? Sure. There's no one size fits all approach, I will say. And because 75% of older adults at minimum have no interest in moving, it usually takes a crisis or a health scare or, yes, the death of a spouse, unfortunately, to finally make that move. And so I'm on a mission through Downsizers Club and other initiatives to get people talking about it sooner. The conversations are very important. And they should be happening five to 10 years sooner than they are. Because I will say the average client that we end up working with, they called us themselves. It isn't rare, but in most cases, it is someone who is still of sound mind and body. And while this is a very physical thing that needs more assistance than your prior moves, it is still something that they are able to thankfully, independently manage on their own, at least the phone calls and the research. And sometimes the families are helpful when things become confusing, especially if there's any stroke in their past. Even that person with a prior stroke is trying to maintain independence and be the main decision maker. No one wants the kids all of a sudden to turn the tables on them and start making decisions for them. So I would say whether it's the senior themselves or their loved one contacting us, the approach is very easy. We've made it that way. I really do want to be the easy button for our clients because this is so challenging. I want to remove the stress from them and their families and help them make good, solid decisions. And so sometimes we're able to even quote their project by phone. If we have an honest impression of the condition of their space and the density of the contents within it, timelines, goals, budgets, all of those things can contribute to us saying, OK, here's what we can do this for and give them peace of mind. But the bottom line is all of the things that come with it start with a space plan. If they're moving, a space plan is going to include the measurements of their furniture, the measurements of the new apartment home, or home in general. It could be a 55 plus community or an independent living community, an assisted living or memory care community. There's so much planning that is involved to make sure that everything we put on that truck is going to fit. And that's how we avoid the most stress at the end of the day is by assessing their current space and assessing their new one and giving them a diagram of what this is going to look like if they bring all of these things. There's usually a wish list and some things that have to come off of it because it's very easy to overestimate what's going to fit. Sometimes it takes going to the new place and drawing it out with blue painter's tape on the floor because it can be hard to look at it on paper and say, oh yeah, that Nicole, she knows what she's doing and that's correct. Sometimes it still is a little deceiving or maybe they just wish for it so bad. They've got to see it in person and that's fine. So imagine the back and forth that can happen just with the space planning stage. But then there's also a heavy amount of sorting through a lifetime of accumulations, all of the things that get stuck in the garage because there just wasn't enough time or even space inside the house for it to sit. The attic or for you, the basement. Right, the basement's up north, yes, that's right. I have seen a couple of basements here in Lakeland, Florida. Oh. And people are surprised by that. And one in particular that I walked into, I was between dad and son and I'm by myself. You know, my husband's not with me or any other member of my team and we're walking down into the basement. And until that moment, I felt safe. But when I saw that cage in the basement, huge, massive, with a gate that closes in locks with mattresses on the floor, I thought I was in for.(Laughing) Oh my, this sounds like it's turning into a murder podcast, go ahead. And so it turns out, mom was a, she cared for animals and that was where the dogs slept. And so this basement spans the entire like, 1900 square foot house. And as you can imagine, it wasn't just a cage. It was eight tall, four drawer file cabinets. I believe dad was an accountant or a CPA, something like that. And so he saved all of it. And on top of that were all of the cherished memories from there and their kids' childhoods and just things that got stuffed in boxes to save for later. Yes, I can't imagine the amount of compassion and skill that you and your staff need to have to help people decide what is going into the new space. I think often when you say it's gonna cost X to move all of this, I think people then get a little practical about, well, I really need grandma's sofa from the year 1920. And so, which I've seen as a realtor, I've seen those things. Size of furniture, most people have no idea what the size of furniture is and how it fits. Don't you find that? Yes, oh, absolutely. When the best thing to bring is a love seat, they want the love seat and the sofa, the large sofa and the two recliners because people are gonna come by and you know, sit as well, but in a thousand square foot apartment, it might be too much. It is definitely too much, let me correct that. It is, yeah. But how do you prepare your staff? How do you be prepared for these conversations where essentially you are asking them to separate themselves from what's most familiar to them? Mm-hmm, yes, I think it takes a few things, not just education, but the actual experience of sorting through the memories. The objects in the home are not just an object, they are a memory and they're tied to the identity of the person or that person's prior identity. So all of their career clothes or tools or you name it, furniture, heirlooms from family, whether it's furniture or it's, you know, art teacups, art, absolutely. And so it's all about creating relationships and I think it really takes time to learn how to balance them and how to be compassionate and not irritated. I think that's why we're seen often as mediators because the family can be a little irritated. You know, "Mom, why have you saved that for all of these years?" And mom wants to tell a story about it, but the family is in a hurry, has to get back to work, is very overwhelmed by the stuff, whereas, you know, mom and dad have lived with it for all of these years, they're really not overwhelmed by it. They honestly don't even see it. And it's even exacerbated from there if it's chronic disorganization and hoarding. So, and you know, when we're looking at that coffee mug, it's not just a coffee mug, it's grandma's morning coffee, a baseball glove isn't just sporting equipment, it's little league memories with dad, you know? So it is very emotional even for us. We take these feelings home with us. And so what someone might call clutter is actually someone's autobiography. I pulled this because I wanted an example of something that was gonna be very hard for me to let go of one time. Thank you. And this is this pillow that I got from my Nana. Now it says grandma because, you know, you can't really find Nana in many places. But I bought this for her for Christmas one year and I took a picture of mom and dad. Oh, lovely. And she passed away, I think it was the very next year. So I'm pretty sure this was her last Christmas, but there's no date on the back other than my note here that she passed away on December 6th, 2008. And that she spent her entire life caring for her family. This is what's so important to do, is to write these notes. And so I'm remembering here that she put our lives before her own with not a selfish bone in her body, even when she was sick and she was sick often ever since a baby. She took the time to pick up the phone and ask how I was doing. And so I wrote, "This is why she is my hero. Janine Marie Case forever remembered." And another reason why she is my hero is because, well, frankly, I've never had a babysitter. She was it. She lived with me most of my, and maybe this is why I love working with older adults, is because I lived with my Nana most of my childhood and she actually was out on her own. She got the benefit of that for just a few years before she passed away. But she was my hero because I remember when I first moved to Kissimmee, Florida, from Miami, Florida, I was only nine. This was five days before Hurricane Andrew hit in Miami. We were leaving because my parents were splitting up and we had family in central Florida. And so we moved up here and she moved with us. And we had these banana trees outside. It's on Will Barber Road in Kissimmee. And a funny story, my ex-boyfriend's uncle lived next door and I didn't know that until after I was well gone and into my adulthood, right? I found that out later when I was showing my ex the house where I grew up in for a little while. And then later, my husband's friend's family bought the house. And when I was going there for her to decorate our wedding cake, she's a wedding cake decorator, my husband and my mom, they're like, wait a second. And so yeah, long story short, this house meant so much for me in my childhood and even into my adult years. But the funny story I really wanted to share is we got these huge banana spiders in the house from these banana trees. And at the time it was like a, what do you call it? Um, oh my gosh, I can't think of what is- It's plantation, you mean like overgrown or something like that? Overgrown, thank you. And so we got these spiders, they're massive. They're like this big. She would spray them with Windex and chase after them with a broom and kill them for me. Oh my, that is a good banana to have. Let me just tell you. I know it's been as now my hero, you know, these- Isn't that wonderful? Oh, that is so wonderful. You know, the karma is unbelievable, unbelievable. But I'd like to be very bored for me to let go, but- It's time to take a picture of things like this and better yet, if we take a picture of the person whose memory it belongs to or who provides us with that memory that's tangible, that we can story tell, we can talk about with our loved ones. My kids never got to meet Nana. I waited until later in life to start having kids. So now I have a 14 year old and a seven year old. And if only, and luckily I do have my Nana and Papa on my dad's side that are still- Wow. And they live pretty close in a Popca. Interesting. So family, family is a constant theme that I run into as I talk to people about real estate and where they're moving in their choices. But earlier, as you were talking about some of the tensions within family, what I've encountered is friends saying, I have to move my mother into a smaller place, assisted living, whatever, memory care. I don't know where to begin. I don't know what's important to her. How do I find out what's really important? So I make sure that it feels comfortable to her. Yeah. So it's the corollary to helping people get organized. Yes, for sure. So in my experience, the adult children sometimes need more coaching than their parents do. The delicately said is what I think, yes. It's actually quite fascinating. So, you know, parents usually know that they are aging, but it is the adult children that panic when they say, mom can't stay here anymore. But then the parent feels ambushed. This is nothing they took the time to plan for. I mean, they wanna be carried out in a pine box feet first. That is the only box they wanna see in their space. And so, yep, a crisis can force that decision on them. And kids can often be considered as forcing decisions on their parents as well. So sometimes the greatest value that we can provide as senior move managers is making sure the siblings still speak to each other after. Oh, yes. Oh, and such a gift that would be because there are so many divisiveness, so much device that happens within families. There's old stuff, you know, old behaviors, old stuff. Well, it's also just natural because there's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of urgency and there's time pressures. The kids are busy with their own jobs and young families. Those that are in the sandwich generation are caring for their adult parents and their young children. And so it's not just the sibling disagreements, but that is very common too. And there's also long distance caregiving responsibilities. So I, for instance, am working with a couple who is moving to California. And they live right now in Point Sienna, and we're clearing the excess. We've created their space plan, and we can do that long distance too. All it takes is a floor plan with accurate measurements, sometimes pictures of the space so that we can really understand it, know if this big wall unit is gonna fit on that wall. It might fit on the wall, but is it gonna block the out the, you know, Exit and entrance. So remote for the electric fan, and the light switches, and is it gonna go beyond the door jam, you know? And so that might be minute and unimportant until they get it there. And then they have regret for choosing to bring that large piece that looked like it was gonna fit, but it didn't fit, you know, overall. And that just adds to the expense. Imagine paying for that big furniture to come from Florida and go to California, and then having to pay to, you know, distribute it somehow afterwards because it turns out they have to downsize some more. And it's not just the cost, it's the stress. Well, it's, so what I'm hearing is, find attention to detail. A skill and ability to assess a space and guide decision-making to move to that space. I'm also hearing a tremendous amount of compassion and being goal-oriented, which often we were, you know, they're opposed, but all those four qualities seem to be in your wheelhouse and what you and your team bring to people. I'm impressed, and I had no idea that this was the level of service. Tell me, so I call you, Carla and I are going to move. We're gonna, and we moved from Virginia to Massachusetts seven years, eight years ago. And so, and so what happens next? You come to see us. Yep, so we'll come to see you to assess your space, your needs, get to know you. It takes time. I mean, my average consultation is an hour and a half, but they've been known to exceed three hours as well, especially if there's more than one or two people that I'm answering questions for. If it's the kids, the neighbors, you know, the pets,(Both Laughing) everybody else, they'll question sometimes the caregiver. And we have to be the bad guy sometimes. This is what I thought of before you asked your question, so I'll get back to it. But, you know, being a great mover is not enough. We wanna say yes to questions. Oh, absolutely, you can keep that. But if we do that, yeah, it might be not meeting their goal of actually doing this wisely. And so instead of saying, yes, ma'am, when they say you see this, everything goes, we will take a step back and help them make better decisions if it's important we do it that way. And that's the thing, every object represents another decision. Do I keep it? Then there's a decision on top of that. If so, where's it gonna go in my new space? Do I donate it? And if so, who will take it? How do I get it there? Do I sell it? How much for? Where at? Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, ooh, those are kinda scary. What do I do? Do I gift it? Do I gift it now? You know, while I'm still alive and can enjoy, you know, the look on my granddaughter's face? Or do I wait and it's, you know, something that is included in my will? Or do I store it? And that's the worst decision usually possible because you're just relaying these important decisions. And all of these decisions are multiplied by the average of 40 years in one home. So people aren't physically exhausted, they're mentally exhausted. And so yes, this professional guidance makes an enormous difference. And so after visiting you in your space and understanding who you are, what your goals are, the budget, the timeline, what steps, what options there are because people have options. I like to limit them because too many options can make it too confusing, especially if we're working with someone who is not just overwhelmed, but you know, just facing significant challenges in their transition. We talked about some examples of that. We had a gentleman with a stroke before, actually I believe he had two strokes before we worked with him. And it was so frustrating for him to try to talk and for us to understand what he was saying and the idea of writing it down on a whiteboard or a piece of paper and showing it to us, it just frustrated him even more. And over time we got to know his communication and really got to understand what he was even talking about because where the average American home has 300,000 items in it. He and his wife both came from parents who had their own antique stores. And when their parents passed away, they took in all that stuff to their home and their mother-in-law suite in the back, which was a whole nother house, but still easy 900,000 items in this house. Wow. And so we try to make the decision making as easy as possible and do the sorting, the heavy amount of sorting sometimes that requires to distribute it all where it needs to go to honor their requests with what's most important that they keep. And the goal that I have for them to decide that or the method is to determine if they currently use it today. If they are using it at least once every week, once every month, once every quarter, once every year, or every day, whichever you want to use in your assessment, you've gotta be actively using it. And including the Christmas decorations, you might have 12 bins in your garage, but you're really only taking one or two down and those are the ones that you're using every year. Those are the things that you should keep. Not move them. And actually not move the rest. And then you give us an assessment, you give us a quote. And we decide what part of that we'd like you to do or the whole thing, how that goes, yes. Like I said, because it's not a one size fits all type of service. And most senior move managers, most professional organizers, I'm also a certified professional organizer. Most of us charge by the hour. It's the way that I did it for 10 years. No longer do I do that because I like the transparency for both our clients and us to understand what the budget is and we stick to it. We honor it unless there's any change of scope. A change of scope could simply be the house went on the market too soon, the new home isn't ready yet. We've gotta face two moves now. Or yes, I decided, Mary, maybe you decided that you're gonna take on the sorting, take on with families, help the packing, and you're just gonna wait for us to arrive on move day. And we can do that too. But nine times out of 10, we get a call and it says, you know what, this is taking a lot more time than I anticipated and I really need some more help. And so absolutely we can add those back on with enough notice. So we had a conversation earlier about this amazing business, Organized Havens. Haven is the name of the company and we'll have it in show notes with all the contact information for Nicole. But Nicole, her heart just gets bigger and bigger and she actually helps people who don't have the money to move. And she helps them through an organization, Safe Move for Seniors, is that it? That's correct, Safe Moves for Seniors. And for, did you say Polk County or is currently your area of service and how does that work and how do people get identified? Because I imagine the need is much greater than the time available. Yes. So for a long time, I had to turn people away who couldn't afford our services. I've done several pro bono moves over the years, but it's not something my small business can really afford to shoulder these costs, especially in a highly disorganized space. And the average person who calls Organized Haven, they are expecting to pay for services. However, again, we get calls from time to time in which we have to ask if they are a member of a church, if they have a friend with a truck, try to give them some ideas called the Local Area Agency on Aging, see if there's any new services that are being provided at no cost or low cost. And so when my friend Jill Jesko in Pittsburgh started Safe Moves for Seniors and then came to a NASM conference one year and said, "We need help. This is not just a Pittsburgh need. There are older adults above 60 years old on Social Security income alone making $1,250 a month. It's not enough to pay their rent for their food, their car insurance, their phone bill, all of the things that we enjoy also having a cell phone, that car, be able to go to the movies from time to time, go shopping and have disposable income. There are seniors who have none of that. And sometimes they're getting evicted from their home. They're losing everything. And they don't know who to call. And so I said yes to joining Jill on this mission on expanding the service that's being provided beyond Pittsburgh and across the US. I think we have 15 chapters now. So I'm the executive director of the Lakeland chapter. And I have the responsibility of taking the phone calls and my assistant Sherry helps me with that as well, gathering the information. What has been very challenging for me knowing that I can't do this for free. I can't pay my team for free. I can't pay for Ryan services and Olympia moving for free. All of these cost money. And so my goal was to fundraise and to grant applications and find grant opportunities. Well, that is a full-time job and I already have several of those. So I though am not one to say, okay, let's turn off the applications because we have no money. And what I've learned is being able to still answer the phone, collect their information, see if there's enough time to try to find the support that they need through donors, through volunteers. And just by telling their story, I've been able to secure the funds. Three times now in just the past couple of months. And so I've created a needs first funding model so that people really understand in our communities what's happening here. There are no moving resources that are free anywhere in the US, this is it. So we're three or four years in to include the first chapter Jill Jesko in Pittsburgh. And she started like me as an organizing company trying to help people declutter their spaces really whether they're moving or not. And so it's very inspirational to join in on that mission say yes to more seniors in need because they need the help more than anybody does. It is not glamorous sometimes is what we were discussing earlier. Some people are in very, very difficult circumstances and need to be out of where they live. And we have access to donations too that can help them. My movers just dropped off a couch in a love seat. Now this is like an old floral from the 70s maybe, maybe 80s, probably 80s set but it's in great shape and it's in better shape than my friend who we just decluttered his space, his mobile home. It's in better shape than what he has. What we find underneath all of that clutter too is sometimes an unsafe space. We knew it was unsafe because of the mounds of stuff to include garbage. But what we didn't know was the how soft the flooring was underneath some of those piles. And so now my mission is expanding for him because we honestly need to get his home rebuilt for him to remain safely there. Otherwise maybe there's somewhere he can move and he could actually get some assistance for later needs like help with assistance in daily activities. Well, to my audience, if you are looking for places to make donations and support other people, do consider Nicole or other sections of Safe Moves for Seniors, other groups and we'll have a follow-up kind of interview with the Safe Move people as we continue to explore this. And thank you for your sensitivity to having a clientele that largely can't afford these wonderful services you're providing, but also keeping in mind the have nots, the people who have not who still need the dignity and that's the word you used earlier when I spoke with you. You talked about the dignity of people and I am so grateful to get to know you, so, so grateful. And I wrote that Ryan already and thanked him and I would love to follow up with you and other ways that we can keep educating people about what things that they can do to get ready for a move, how they might be able to engage their families and in a way that works. And one of my contacts that I've made through this, reaching out to potential speakers told me that when she moved her parents from Utah to Texas, she formed quote, a partnership with her father. So because the mother was frail and the mother has just recently passed and that the partnership with the father, even though the father was ill, he was able to make decisions and wanted to make decisions. And so the respect that was provided, that person was just tremendous. And that's what I hear from you is the respect for the person and people involved and your clients. Yeah, I thought it sounds like we're ending here. So I wanted to share these resources because yes, if you're a caregiver and you're helping mom and dad through these conversations, I would encourage you to check out these books. They were created by the National Aging and Place Council, which is another association that I am a proud member of. And so these are, this first one that I have on top is the Caregivers Edition. And this was one that I actually wrote a chapter in. How lovely. And this was through my role as a senior home coach and it's chapter two and it's called Caring Through Clutter, how caregivers can create a safer, simpler home for their loved ones. So I think if you're gonna get one of the books, get this one and I go into so much more depth about it. And I'm happy to send you the link for it as well as Difficult Aging and Place Conversations was book two of the NAA-PCs. You can find these on Amazon. And then the first one that they ever wrote was Aging and Place Conversations, what industry experts have to say. Excellent, let's put them in the, we'll put them in the show notes as well for people to have. Thank you so very much. It is a pleasure getting to know you. Is there anything that you would, any kind of parting words that you would like to say? I would just say, cause I did prepare a final takeaway that downsizing is not about living with less, it's about making room for more. And as you can imagine that more is more freedom, more safety, peace of mind, and more time with family. Most of all actually is more confidence in what is next. Hmm, thank you. Thank you so very much, Nicole, a pleasure. And I know we'll talk some more. Thank you, Mary.(Upbeat Music) Thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope you found this conversation useful to you and your real estate goals. You'll find the contact information for our guests in any links they recommend you have in the show notes. And should we be able to help you identify some strong real estate professionals in your area, drop us a note at info at realestakeconnectionspodcast.com. Thanks again and bye for now.(Upbeat Music)