On The Bridge
On The Bridge is a maritime industry podcast by leading Superyacht navigation management company, DSNM Ltd.
Hosted by the COO of DSNM Ltd, Alicia Store, each episode focuses on bringing you real conversations with people who live and work within the Superyacht world, lifting the lid on this unique industry.
Join us as we chat candidly with Superyacht Captains, Officers, training experts, business leaders, former crew turned entrepreneurs.
On The Bridge explores real stories, professional insights and lessons shaping todays Superyacht world.
On The Bridge
On The Bridge with Superyacht Phi
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How do you build a 100% custom masterpiece from a blank sheet of paper?
On this episode of On The Bridge, Alicia sit down with Captain Guy Booth and Interior Designer George Wolstenholme to pull back the curtain on M/Y Phi. One of the most talked-about superyachts in recent history.
As George says, “The concept had to come before the yacht”. From years of notebook sketches and conversations to a fully custom Royal Huisman build based on the mathematical philosophy of the Golden Ratio, Phi, was never meant to be ordinary. We explore how a blank sheet of paper became a 58.5m engineering masterpiece, where every single detail is considered with purpose.
We explore -
• Working without compromise to the philosophy of the Golden Ratio
• Amazing details of design from watch mechanisms to wine cellars
• How to collaborate without ego to bring a vision to life
• The realities of Phi's detention in London and the controversy that followed
This is a story about vision, craftsmanship, resilience, and the reality of building boldly.
Timestamps -
• 00:00 – How did the journey to build Phi begin?
• 04:30 – Why was full custom non-negotiable?
• 10:00 – How did the Golden Ratio shape the concept?
• 20:00 – What made the design collaboration work?
• 30:00 – Why choose a Dutch shipyard?
• 38:30 – What features define Phi’s uniqueness?
• 45:00 – How does Phi perform at sea? 5
• 3:30 – What happened on the day of detention?
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On this episode of On the Bridge, I'm joined by the captain, an interior designer of Moto yacht Fee, one of the most talked-about Moto yachts of recent years for a variety of reasons, which we're going to go into. We talk about the design and build process of this unique vessel and the political situation she has found herself the centre of. So thank you for both joining me today. We're here in the beautiful offices of Lawson Rob Design Studios in London and Chelsea. This conversation is one I've been looking forward to having and sharing with the yachting world. I feel very fortunate that I'm probably one of the few people in the world, apart from owners, team, captain, and crew that's actually got to see Moti Yotfi in real life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Um during Met Show in Amsterdam in 2020, you gave David and I a full tour and we were both blown away. And we get to see a lot of super yachts in our job, but she was pretty special. So I'm excited to share and be able to communicate the design process and her uniqueness, hopefully, with the podcast audience. So let's start right at the beginning. We've got quite a lot to cover. So, Guy, how did the conversation start with you and the owner about building a boat like Fee? And what were the deciding factors and where you were going to build her and sort of what she was going to be like?
SPEAKER_03Good morning, Alicia, and thank you for uh initiating this. Um all exposure is is good exposure as far as we're concerned to to the unfortunate situation that Fee is in. The how did the conversation start with the owner? Um I was at the time commanding his then yacht, and he had very young children who were learning to swim. And as the children got bigger and they wanted more toys and more adventure, and they wanted to bring more friends with them, he wanted to be less weather dependent on his cruising, wanted to go further, um, not necessarily faster, but uh further. Um it became apparent that to coin a phrase, we're gonna need a bigger boat. So we spent um years, he and I and his wife, sometimes often, um, cruising around the anchorages in in our various tenders, looking at all the boats that were at anchor in the bay, wherever that might be, all over the Met. We would slowly cruise down one side of a boat and round the back and and and out the other side, and and and he would be pointing at the yacht and saying, I love that element, and I don't really like that. And what's that? Why have they done that? And it was educational educational on on both our sides. You know, I'd ask him, What about that? Do you like? Why why do you like that? He said, Well, don't you like that? I said, Well, I'm not sure, but I'm interested in why you do or why you don't. And so I learned more about his tastes and he learned more about boats.
SPEAKER_01Um It's a good ways to do research.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It went on for years. And it was often with a with a with a cold bear with us, you know, as a crew member driving and him and I sitting in the back and shorts, t-shirt, bear staring at boats as as normal humans do, and not many owners do.
SPEAKER_01I don't I don't know, but but you get to see the good, the bad, and the ugly as well, don't you, in real life in situ and see the practicalities of them actually out and about than trying to describe it from pictures. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03So we attended lots of uh lots of boat shows everywhere and walked on board and had a look at he has an engineering and manufacturing background, so he was always more interested in seeing the engine room and the technical space in the bridge and the plant room and the machinery rooms, and then walking in and seeing an an interior. Because let's face it, they're all beautiful. Yeah, they're all stunning. The whether to your taste or to George's taste or to someone else's taste. That's marmote, isn't it? But they're all stunning. He was not so much interested or motivated by the interiors as he was about the machine. And the story of how it really started is is is fantastic. He had asked me to he basically said, I'm ready. Let's let's do this properly. So I spent uh probably six months drafting a basic technical specification based on the pages and pages and pages of notes that I had had from him. I d documented all of our discussions over the years, and I had old notebooks and napkins and scraps of paper and thousands of photos on my phone, and and from extrapolating that information I wrote a a a preliminary technical specification of what what this boat was, not what it was going to look like, but what it was going to be like. Through a very well-known broker and friend of mine um who's uh uh who works for Fraser Yachts, um through discussions, he's a Dutch guy, um Jan Yap Minema, he's uh well known in the in the in the industry, he introduced us to several people at a Monaco boat show, several designers and several naval architects. And one one important found a foundation stone was that their vessel would be totally custom to this owner. We weren't not going to buy a a a production yacht and choose our colour.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We weren't gonna buy a production yacht with the with the technical spaces and the interiors already done and choose the the wallpaper and the and the tables. It was no from the from the keel to the masthead was gonna be totally custom. That was one of the driving things in this owner. So that actually made a quite a short list of of designers and an even shorter list of shipyards. Yeah. Interestingly, very, very few shipyards do full custom builds, it's just not their business model. Yeah. So we had a meeting with uh Cordy Rover, uh, the Dutch designer, and uh he's a a casual, super intelligent uh he's an engineer before he's a designer, so he understands machines rather than just pretty pictures, you know. So we met with with Kor and with with Perivan Asannen, who had done several projects together. When Cor first met the owner, he came out for lunch on on the owner's then yacht. Well, he actually was coming for coffee. And the owner had been bombarded with other designers, big name exterior yacht designers had uh been out to visit and brought with them a big flashy entourage of people and and sat there and complimented and flirted and with and and and uh you know inflated the ego or tried to inflate the ego of this owner, and I could see him sitting there yawning and looking at me, go, This is this really happening. This is not me. Sitting there in shorts. And then he he said to me in the uh he said, We got anyone left? And I said, Yeah, there's another chap, should have been here by now. He arrives by tender, he's soaking wet, he's late, he had nothing with him, not even a notebook, right? He just stepped on board and and then they shook hands, they offered tea, the three of us sat down, and the owner said, Right, I'm I'm ready. And Cor looked at me and he said, Uh, ready for what? Maybe there's been a misunderstanding. And the owner's looking at me, and Cor's looking at me, and and I didn't know what to say. And and so the owner and Cor got it right. He said, How can I design a boat for you? Um, with respect, I'd I've just met you.
SPEAKER_00I love you.
SPEAKER_03I don't know anything about your family. Have you got children? Yeah, have you got kids? Were you married? Where where do you want to go boating? What sort of boat? I mean, is this your boat that we're sitting on? Yes, it's my boat. Okay, so who chose that? You are you did? Okay, because it's got a bit of a masculine feel to the end of it. And where do you normally sit? And the owner says, in that chair. Can I sit there? So Corse sat in the owner's chair to get the owner's view of the boat. He said, Why do you sit there? And I was like, I don't know. I just do. I always sit in that chair. Probably because subconsciously or otherwise you like that view, right? Interesting. Chat, chat, can we walk around the boat? So they walked around and they started talking about children and family and and everything. And and then and then it was like, lunch? So sure. Wine? Sure. And sunset, he's calling for a tender rod to drop core off.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic.
SPEAKER_03A year later, almost with no no interaction, no exchanges between us, other than lovely to have met you. Thanks for lunch, nice wine. Let me know if I can help. A year later, the owner and I were walking around the Monaco boat show, and Cor jumped out of his stand and he said, Oh, have you got a second? Uh, yeah, we're on our way to meet someone. So I just want to show you something. And he had an A3 size presentation folder. We're standing up in the traffic of Monaco, you know, the people traffic. And he started turning the page, and the owner's like, No way, that's beautiful. Whose boat is that? And Cor's like, well, I'm hoping it's yours.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03Cor said every float that I've taken, I sit in bed drawing on the back of books, and I've made all these sketches, and I'm hoping this is your new boat. Had all the elements that we had discussed with Cor, and I shared with him the the the brief spec that I'd written. How many cabins, what sort of space the owner required that he's an outside guy, not an inside guy. And Cor had uh drawn this boat, and that was it. The hook was set. Fish on.
SPEAKER_01It was meant to be. It was meant to be meant to be. What a wonderful story. And how amazing that he turned up with nothing, knowing that he needed to get to know the person and what he wanted the boat for. So between you and all your notebooks, years and years of taking notes and going out yacht spotting, and a guy spending a day with the owner, he created his dream boat.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Yep, that's an amazing and as far as I know, quite a rare occurrence. Yeah uh for super yacht owners.
SPEAKER_01Um but it makes perfect sense because how could a designer turn up with never knowing an owner and an owner wanting complete custom project and say, Well, I've got these ten pictures, have a look and see if you like any. A custom project should be completely from scratch, and that's exactly what called.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's right, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. That's a brilliant story. I love that. I love that. Okay, George. So, George, you are masters in yacht design, over 10 years experience designing ultra prime residential projects. How what on earth happened? How did you get involved? What's your story?
SPEAKER_02I think it all began with a similar similar flagging down in traffic in Monaco, didn't it? Didn't it? Our um happens in Monaco.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, happens in Monaco stays in Monaco. A good bottle of wine. We have a few of those stories actually.
SPEAKER_02Um so our then um our then um business development um person met met Guy at Monaco Yottshire, weren't it 2016, 2017, somewhere around there? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Um touch base, obviously, I think it think it relative, relatively, relatively light chat, and you know, guy made them aware that there was something going on and maybe a conversation to have at some point in the future. Um and then it was probably in the following April or following April April or May um that um the I can't remember which way around it was whether you go on contact or whether we got in contact, and and basically the the the result of which was guy was okay, right, we're ready to ready to have a look at ready to have a look at something.
SPEAKER_01Great. So at that point you'd already uh started with core and the exterior designers and yeah.
SPEAKER_03So at that point we had a a general arrangement.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We knew where the walls were going to be. Yeah. Uh the the spec of what was important to the owner. A lot of it was relevant to George and his team because for as you've seen, the the location of the dining table.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The fact that that dining table can be inside or outside by moving all the walls around it. Things like this.
SPEAKER_01So that was sort of already all these special features were there, but then the interior actually.
SPEAKER_03How to do it was it? Yeah. It was only in concept, this is what I want.
SPEAKER_01Oh great. And uh small uh up thing to bring to the table then. We've got all these great ideas. Off you go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean, it was a bit, I mean, so I think basically that we had the call. We made the we did did a did a did the um competitive proposal. I think was it us and two or three others, two other designers? Yeah, and mood boards. And mood boards and something we did I think we at the time we did a pro we did an initial proposal, which by the way ended up being a totally again to mirror in line with like designing for the client, ended up being the design, and the proposal ended up being totally different to what was actually what what was actually delivered in the end, but um a taster. Um and then and then yeah, we received a call and said said that he was said said that they were gonna go with us, and then after after after a certain amount of darks around the office, we got we got going.
SPEAKER_01I just also want to touch on the owner's brief, and then we'll talk about then your ideas from that. Because tell me if I'm wrong, but the owner's brief was to create something that's never been seen before, create something disruptive, create an unfurling story, and create it with fee. And for anyone who doesn't know what fee is, because I also had to look it up. Yeah, it's relating inside and outside to Sexio Diviner. Is that how you say it, Divinia? Or the golden ratio. Fee is the formula that governs the continuation of dimensions and shapes in natural proportions throughout the design. And the fee philosophy and deck levels are subsequently focused on three themes the galaxy, the ocean surface, and the underwater world. So that's not your average owner's brief or sort of theme, really, is it? Make it gold and make it beige. No.
SPEAKER_02So it was it was I mean, that to be fair, we did it did say we did spend the spent before we'd even put before we even put pen to paper, we spent a lot, we spent a lot of time just unpicking what what that was and and what it could be.
SPEAKER_01So that came from the owner.
SPEAKER_02That came from the owner, and also core was a big part of that, wasn't it, in terms of the inception?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was a lady named Nicole who who works as core one of Core's team.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Just to rewind a little bit there, the the owner s made it clear that he did not want to design and build a beautiful boat and then choose a name.
SPEAKER_01Right, okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay, the the name and the concept would come before any yacht design. Yeah, before the exterior, before the interior, the concept would come first. And it had to be an intellectual, deep, interesting concept. Yeah. And for those that have scratched their head and and thought, fee, what does that mean? And they start looking it up. Everyone's going, wow, I didn't know that. And it's a it's a a clipbait. You can just get deeper and deeper and deeper into what fee means. And music, floor and fauna, meteorology patterns, planetary alignments, mathematics, physics, AI, facial recognition. I mean, fee is everywhere.
SPEAKER_01And that came from the owner. So from Nicole. Oh, from Nicole.
SPEAKER_03Nicole presented a couple of mood boards during the early stages. And we had looked at a few other concepts that were, yeah, interesting. Maybe with some development could be a cool thing. But is it cheesy? Right? We looked at three or four like that, and then this one, uh, we're all sitting there, and how do you spell that? P H I. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Wow, wow.
SPEAKER_03Everyone doing it, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then it got deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. And then and oh that's and then the owner said, I I love it. I love the balance, the the yeah, the balance. What do you do you have a name for it? Do you have a name for the boat? And Nicole said, Yeah. Well, fee. And the boss is like, boom, there it is. Let's go with that. So we got to that stage, yeah, and then threw that through that mess at George and said, implement that on an interior, which was not easy.
SPEAKER_01No. I mean, I've seen the I've seen the boat, and the interior is unbelievably stunning, but there's a story throughout which is very unique.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you've done a great job. And after Guy showed us around, I actually then went and googled what fee was, and it made sense then the story throughout the boat. But I can't imagine for someone just coming into the project, getting that owner's brief, and then speaking with the designers and having that and thinking, where do you even start?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, we yeah, it it took as I said, it took it took a lot of um it took a lot of time to to unpick it at first, and and it kind of and you know, the brief was, you know, essentially everything. And you know, how do you how do you design something that the result of which is measured and balanced, but also And practical has also impractical. I also need to be able to use the boat um but still um but still has everything in there. So one of the key one of the key things that we looked at that also falls within the concept of fee is Da Vinci's Rituan Man, which and the idea of which is the idea of divine proportion. Yeah. Um and that that also uses the that obviously takes into account exactly the um the sort of the shell-like form that you see when you Google um Google fee and the and the golden ratio. Um so so we took that as the sort of as the as the net to capture it, and then um, and then the basically looking at the fact that it's it's everything, so it's a it's a chaotic brief, but when you look at that everything, things like astronomy, um biology, everything that looks chaotic is actually contextualized by order and mathematics and all of it. Really? Yeah, yeah. So looking at so that was sort of that was sort of a start point as to how we could how we could take take something that might seem a little bit chaotic when you're talking about it, but when you're actually living it and walking around, um, doesn't feel that way. It feels yes, it's as less, yes, it's asymmetric, yes, it's there's a lot going on, but there's but when you're living in the space, it doesn't feel overpowering, it feels balanced and it feels, you know, it feels everything feels in its in its right place. And and what one thing that we didn't want to do, which I I never like doing, I hate the idea, I hate having a a concept and having it speak super loudly. So, you know, with the idea of the cosmos going in and seeing, you know, a starry sky, for example, is kind of something that we the kind of translation that we try and avoid.
SPEAKER_01Something a bit too obvious, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And with that also becomes the really lovely part of of the of the Oxen tier is that you can kind of you could be on board for a week or two and and and still be discovering. Still not see it, still see everything and still be still sort of, you know, you might be sitting in a corner of the room that you haven't done before, and then you realise that sort of tucked away in a little corner, there's actually all that's quite a nice little detail. Um, so there are hundreds of examples like that on fake. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But even just the way the furniture and things were placed and the layout of the rooms, if that's the technical term for it. I mean, everything had a reason for being where it was, and to the uneducated eye, you'd walk in and think, wow, this is just beautiful. But actually, it was so much bigger than that within the concept and the story, which is so unique.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think one of the, for example, as an example, the main the main deck dining salon, and then it's and then for example, when the when the afters are all or all pocketed back, pocketed back, that the integration of the interior and exterior, it's a when you're on board, it's a massive space. It feels huge. So you could with you could go down the minimal route, and when everything's open up, it could feel really cap it could feel really quite cavernous. If you were if you know, for example, if it was just the owner, owner and his wife on board, you could could quite easily feel a little bit lost in that space. So getting the balance of having of creating something that was um social and conversational across the across the across the span, um, when it's just whether it's a few people on board, but then sorry, when in the more social setting. Um and then some but then something that doesn't feel too too you don't feel too lost on it when it's just when it's just yourself. That was that was that that was part of the part of the balance of laying out. Um and with that sort of applied with um throughout the boat. And another another thing that we really wanted to do for the for the interior in terms of because we when we we we had a similar similar story with um Oscor in terms of we one of our first meetings with the client was on, we went, went, uh, went on board his current, uh his previous um previous shot and had lunch.
SPEAKER_01Did you turn up late and soaking wet or no?
SPEAKER_02Well, I kind of basically turned turned up turned up um well it's sort of it was it was it it was Nice, wasn't it? I can't remember if it was Nice or Cat. Yeah. So not wasn't wasn't late, but I was chitting myself.
SPEAKER_01So um I love the honesty because actually it's so huge, isn't it? It was so huge, and and you want to be able to work with someone you get on really well with, but who knows until you actually spend time with that person.
SPEAKER_03100%, 100%. Um things that that as I mentioned for for the owner uh a the personal connection is is paramount. Yeah. And with Core, I I laugh that he his glasses were on crooked, his hair was everywhere. He had two different socks on his feet and and you know had taken a wave in the tender type thing. And and that was the boss loved that. And when George arrived he was dressed much like he is now. No cravat. No personalised No you're cravat no personalised cut.
SPEAKER_01He left that on the boat.
SPEAKER_03No five thousand pound pairs of shoes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know just hi I'm George. Yeah exactly.
SPEAKER_01And this is what the only connected with but that is how you come across as a person known known you for a few years now and you are a very warm down to earth person and by the sounds of it that is what was key to this project. Having people that came in and rather than telling the boss what he should build you all sat around and said let's talk about what you want to use the boat for what you know who are your family who are your friends what do you do on a Saturday evening. Everybody just listened and then built something for him which is probably rarer than we think in this world and like you say with you know yacht designers and turning up and saying well here's what I can build you but that's not what is special to me. So oh I love this such a unique story. Okay guy so Fee as we know is special in many ways she's correct me if I'm wrong the longest vessel in length sub 500 gross tons that's correct right yep still I've done my research right still still right still to this day when working with George and the design teams did you realize what you were building was something pretty special?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yep absolutely how did that feel as a captain who's driven loads of different boats and you know worked in different scenarios how was that really exciting? Was it daunting?
SPEAKER_03Obviously fine to work with I think a little bit of both but you know my wife r remembers and often reminds me of uh when I was a yacht captain w when I was a an engineer and a deck hand and a chief officer all I wanted to be was a captain right and then for twenty plus years as a captain across different vessels what I really wanted was to apply my my university background with something a bit more intellectual I wanted to meet an owner who was really brave and this was before I'd met this client it was always my dream to to to connect with an owner that was really brave had massive vision and to build something really special that was always a bucket list thing for me. So when when when this owner started going down that route I knew I knew then that this was a big tick in a big box for me personally.
SPEAKER_01But you waited it out right I mean you've been with this owner a long time and like you said you talked about building a boat for a long time. 16 years I thought you stayed patient and stayed with the owner with that in sight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah he's um an incredible human being I know exactly what sort of man he is as a family man and a as an employer and uh he's uh if you know I have a huge amount of respect for him. If I didn't I wouldn't be here no sure um yeah it was always evident that it was going to be special and that sort of the cherry on top was when the design was in place, the interior was in place we then had to choose a shipyard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so how how did that decision come about? Where'd you even start?
SPEAKER_03Well obviously you only had a couple that you could use of what you wanted to do that he understood the basics in in well more than the basics but he understood that that there are many for example shipyards in in Italy and Turkey and and various other places around the Mediterranean Spain even that could build what he wanted but he also knew or he also believed that Northern European yards if you want impeccable quality quality of the highest order even in elements that will never be seen by the human eye ever again you know cable runs that are inside walls that are straight that that are lined up like soldiers that everybody that's ever s touched that boat is had a huge amount of pride in it that are highly trained, highly skilled no corners cut that was a concept that really appealed to this client and he knew that there was the budget implication for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But he's an engineer right he's an engineer that would be super important to him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and he knew he had to work a little harder and save a little longer before he could make that happen because it costs so we we narrowed it down to a uh uh five very well known high-end Dutch and German shipyards and we met with them and presented our project uh by then the technical specification had grown to over a couple of hundred pages we had a an interior design brief we had all the naval architecture package these were all things that the client took on his responsibility right so we developed the the NA we developed the the technical spec and the GA and we developed the interior.
SPEAKER_01So you actually turned up with the boat ready on paper we want and you just needed to find a yard to not entirely of course there's a huge amount of work for the shipyard to do. But you had a very very clear idea of what the vision looked like.
SPEAKER_03Yep correct and one or two of the shipyards said you know leave it leave that with us and we'll get back to you and when they did they said look we've we've had to make her a little bit longer here or a little bit shorter there we've had to make these cabins a bit smaller because to get the engineering package in here this is how we do it and the client sort of what do you mean that's how you do it? You're building custom right and it was almost uh it was a late thought where we thought about how all of the super sail yachts the big sailing boats they're all different with the exception of one yard in Italy that builds large production boats if they're still doing I'm not sure but all of the big European sailboat builders they're all very very different to one another. Yeah different keel arrangement different rig arrangement different hull shape they start with a blank sheet of paper and this is what by then the owners almost like that that's what I want blank sheet of paper. Don't you come back and say I've already got a 60 meter boat engine room package done. Yeah because it doesn't fit in my boat. It's not custom owner yeah so we approached Royal Houseman and um again another you know George Kore Houseman three perfect decisions as far as the owner made those three perfect decisions and Houseman started with a blank sheet of paper a big room full of very very very clever people all of them with a blank sheet of paper and when we're discussing these crazy ideas and demands expectations of the owner and we're seeing them all go and and I'd say have you ever built anything like that no but give me a couple of weeks I'll engineer that for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and that's their approach and this is the owner's just sitting at the other end of the table going yep yep yep yep agreeing with their philosophy not trying to force his vision into something else but saying leave it with us and we're gonna see what we can do.
SPEAKER_03No compromise. It's a cliche term but it's exactly what the owner said and it's exactly what the shipyard heard.
SPEAKER_01It's a dream project for a creative right because you've got someone who's so non-relenting and creating that as close to perfection of their idea as possible and with a budget and they have a reasonable expectation of what the budget's going to be.
SPEAKER_02So they're not saying create this but we can we can only spend this so for you then working with core and and the shipyard how how did it all sort of come together with your ideas and what was that process like well I think that I think that was to be up before I start I think that that's one of the big success stories of of the project was the way that it the way that all of the moving parts did you know didn't come together and and integrate and you know nothing no one package was felt alienated from the rest everything was you know everything had a great had a great um great alignment between one another um with the owner um it kind of it was one of those I think it was a perfect perfect balance of owner's brief and also us basically let us letting us letting letting him letting us have a run yeah run at doing our thing so we had like a very intense six months where we had a where we should have culminated in a meeting at Monaco Yacht show big presentation all the key spaces all the materials um owner's team and then and that was of that was sort of up until then it was super involved lots of conversations with the client obviously lots of conversations with guys it as as as that continued and that continued for the next for the next four years and then as soon and then had that presentation um how did that go that and that initial sort of presentation after I think we nailed it right was he yeah yeah that's amazing clearly yeah yeah and um there wasn't it wasn't he sat there and said I don't really like that he was very it would it honestly design wise I think the only thing that he came back on that he didn't like with dinner plates, cutlery oh okay napkin rings yeah yeah easily but in terms of everything yeah the walls the floors amazing the special finishes well I think we've got 40 something different special finishes on the interior that have all had to be made bespoke for us because George drew something that the fabricators of the interior are going like Jesus Christ what's we hate you George drawing these things invent it for us so and and the boss was like yeah I trust you do your thing and show me when you're done that was it that was very that was that was for me that was the big that was a big moment that was sort of went from big big kind of green light big big green light okay right these guys these guys have got it just like like but also how amazing that feeling that you do that presentation and the boss sits there with all those special features you're not just showing him a production vessel you're showing him all these different unique ideas and he loves them all and you think oh my god I've got it I understand what he wants I understand the client and I'm able to create that for him and he likes what I'm showing him that's insane because this isn't just a normal project where you're just here's four different colour beige sofas pick which one you're you know 46 different and they are so different. Yeah no it was bit it was big also it was there was a lot it was poured loads into it as but in sort of the week the month leading up to it is you know months of me doing mad you know like a mad professor tearing piece of paper up throwing it aside developing so yeah it was a bit felt it was huge it felt it was it was amazing and um and yeah and then that then that's where that then then we sort of started rolling out the details um and you know final finalising the development and and working with the and that and I think we think it was just basically post that meeting that we started doing the rounds to um some of the sort of in the some of the special like specialist sure specialist finishes for some elements of the um elements of the interior so so yeah and then and then we in terms of other elements are coming together we looked at you know we obviously made things obviously cores external cores core is responsible for the external design and also the external deck spaces so made those small small details making sure that for example radial floor patterns that were in that were um that were set out on the interior continued to the exterior and there's kind of you know there's those those love tailing exercises that we talked about.
SPEAKER_01There's a lot of continuity like interior network my question because actually when you walk through the boat because the outside deck feels very fluid and going back to what you were saying originally about how he the owner likes to spend his time it makes perfect sense when you actually see the boat because it inside outside flows into one so you must have had to work quite closely with core to really bring that all together and the outside design flows inside it's all very cohesive.
SPEAKER_02So how was that process for your first time working with a uh an exterior yacht designer it worked really really naturally um and again for example it was as the extra the extra we we thought the external design was was was amazing so it wasn't kind of there wasn't really anything that we looked at and thought actually sharing about this and sharing like this sharing about that and oh yeah so it was all it was we're very you know very more than more than happy to you know to to take it to take it on board and and um and and marry and marry it up to married up to our our ideas in the interior um yeah because sort of bringing creative heads together I guess there's always a risk that you might look at the project and think oh my god it looks like an absolute rock from the outside I'm I'm gonna have to work my magic inside but it sounds like the way that everyone's come together on this project probably because you know the owner so well and he was so open minded that actually all the people who came together thought in a similar way. Yeah I think it's also the no like the that's also where the no no ego thing popped in as well isn't it because you know core was very accepting of us doing the in doing the interior and we were also very accepting the other way and it was very much a a a two-way street.
SPEAKER_03Yeah um and I think it it relied heavily on the fact that everybody was super excited about the concept.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So they so there's no friction so there's all different creative minds.
SPEAKER_03There's Core and his team George and his team and everybody there and everybody there really just letting the creative juices flow. Yeah. And when Cor saw things that George and his team had designed Core was like wow cool and vice versa.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so for them to hey I've I've drawn this what do you think but it sort of stops at the door how can we no no no I get it I get it go give me a week I'll come back to you with how we can make that flow amazing from my threshold into yours and those were nice moments because obviously you know they came up the course team came up with the initial concept so to a certain degree the concept is is their little bre their little brain child so the moments when when I was with Cor and showing from the interior and him you know him him saying okay right you know you guys are really you guys are really good at you know that was that was those are also those are also really nice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I'm sure also nice for him that he's taken this very unusual concept and someone's been brought into the project that he didn't bring in that the owner's brought in and you just sit down and show him and he's thinking oh my god he actually gets it and then you can create this amazing project there's no sort of downside to it because everyone's got it and pulled in the right direction. Thank you for listening to this episode so far. We have some really great guests coming up on this series and we wouldn't want you to miss any of those future episodes. So please don't forget to click the subscribe button and enjoy the rest of this episode. Okay so what are your favourite features and why and were there any crazy design ideas that didn't make it was there anything that core or guy or the owner went what are you doing George?
SPEAKER_02There was one idea it was like a I think in this in the Skyland we have this with where where the um just again with the with the to how we sort of tried to make the make the brief sort of palatable going through the boat was we we split it into sort of cosmos upper deck um earth surface main deck and then and then below the surface lower deck. So and with that on the upper deck we've got there's a sort of private um private owner sky lounge and we have obviously that's that's cosmos aspired we've done we did we created a um amazing sort of bespoke um orological movement um and all that kind of stuff and the idea was there's supposed to be a connection with um with the with the sky itself so with that we had I think at some point with the thinking about some sort of multimedia screen that requires like software development and like all of that kind of stuff which you know which which I think actually that that didn't last very long but that was yeah yeah it was going to be like a holographic concierge oh wow yeah recognizing you when you walked into the room and we don't need that we've got you or the interior to him yeah yeah um okay well that's interesting so of all the unusual elements I say unusual unique in the boat it's actually a piece of technology that didn't make it all the other sort of details did yeah so what's your favourite um feature on the boat and Guy I'm gonna ask you this also so having a thing I'm thinking about my answer from um probably two probably two um so one is the one when we had very early chats and we're on board the um owner's previous vessel he was he showed showed us around to kind of we were trying to work out what what he liked what he didn't etc etc he showed us around the main deck showed us around the upper deck and then we sort of got to the stairs going down to the lower deck and he said no bowl me is going have a look but I don't really I don't really go down there so I can't really I can't really speak much about it speak much about it. So then we so then so I sort of took took that on board and was okay well it's a shame to have a shame for an owner to commission such a and not and not and not not use all the real estate so um so there between Guy and Paul they'd kind of they'd they'd devised the um this sort of underfloor wine cellar in the corridor of the lower deck um which we took on board and embraced and we wanted to actually we basically created create little niche at the at the bottom at the foot of the stairs basically sort of a supercost and similar wine tasting station um so with the with the you know with a thought we thought it'd be quite nice if you know if after dinner he's got if the the owner with one of his friends would say oh I've got you know I've got a nice bottle do you want to go down and have a look like have a try it we opened that one we like we like like this and or maybe not we try another one and then you know take it take it take it upstairs and interesting George didn't show the owner that until she was launched.
SPEAKER_03Really? And the boss went walked downstairs and goes what's going on there and George went I don't know go and have a look and the boss went no you haven't so the owner loves it.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing so that was that was that's that was really nice. And again that was that was we had a um yeah had a n had a night on had a night on board when she was when she was living on us would have had had like had a nice had a nice sort of hour with the owner sort of just going around and talking talking through design stuff that was that was that was a nice time.
SPEAKER_01So that's so thoughtful because like you say you've listened to the owner he doesn't really go in that area so then you're thinking about ways like you say this boat is him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah everything about it is him every detail every thought where he sits where his kids are like how he enjoys life yeah so then you found a way to make him enjoy every part of the boat yeah based on him saying that he you know didn't usually go down yeah yeah that was I think anywhere there's wine would be my favourite part yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly oh I can understand that sounds very special so they was and then the other the other ones or the second one no no you're we we did the I mentioned the um uh orological movement that we didn't that we did in the Sky Lounge that was that was very cool um for me because I think one of the one of the things that um one of the things that one of the uh common threads between the owner and myself is we're both obsessed with watches and movements and the like my canal side of it so we pitched this up pitched this idea of doing a um working with um a bespoke uh complication manufacturer in Switzerland um to do basically we sort of created a um the created created a movement which um it tells the time but it also ever or sort of on the hour on the on the hour every eye does a sort of a display which is a representation of how the planets like planets move around beautiful piece of art yeah so they did so they did they they we created that with them and then we we designed the um the sort of the casement that it sits in with sort of um out of straw marketry again as for the rest of the boat complex surfacing um etc etc and then we sort of had it engraved with um our our tagline for the boat which is sort of alchemy and order um equals it equals fee so that was just the nice that was a nice example of how you know you're doing some doing such a such a big project but then you can just but just getting getting lost in the one of those things you could sit and snare at forever.
SPEAKER_01But also that's fee right it's a huge project but she is all about the details like you say you could probably walk round her and miss most of them be on the boat for two weeks and still not notice all the little the little things that's amazing and you've left a little bit of your love also there because it's an interest for you.
SPEAKER_02Well the other one with the shower panels as well that was quite nice because I actually made I I actually made I actually made some of the bespoke did some of the bespoke finishing myself. Really we got you back on the tools yeah so there was uh photographs of it yeah dust mask suit there was some in the shower we had some sort of bespoke bronze the um bespoke bronze screens basically and the idea was that we sort of layered up the layer up layered up bronze um bronze patinering effect on a brass resin um and then we wanted to sort of take like take away take take away areas and and and create a sort of a bespoke pattern it was kind of we went through a few rounds with the the shipyard and you know all respect it just wasn't quite yeah how I was imagining it. So um so yeah so I hopped on a plane and hopped on a plane and put my dust mask on and and and um had a go myself and then it worked it sort of worked worked out worked out pretty well so it's still there in his in his in the shower yeah which is quite cool.
SPEAKER_01So yeah yeah well well remembered yeah yeah three very special features that you that you basically did one of them yourself. Yeah there you go and what about you guy?
SPEAKER_03I know it's a hard question because there's so many Yeah there are so many um and for me predictably my my brain or the opposite side of my brain works to George's right so for me I think the perhaps the most special feature is her hull form. It is effectively a sailing boat hull with a motivated built on it. Um she's Nearly 59 metres long and very narrow and extremely shallow. At the transom, there's less than 30 centimetres of hull under the water. She's very much like a sailing boat design.
SPEAKER_01And what benefit does that give her performance?
SPEAKER_03Many. Um, it produces challenges in terms of where to put all the machinery. Right. Okay, and reducing the hull shape will it will reduce volume. So you need to employ a certain number of tricks of design and layout to to optimise the volume and build to optimise the the layout that you have. But a good example, the the the one ocean trip I've done on that boat was from the Netherlands to here uh in early December, 6th of December. And uh, you know, the North Sea in winter is not ideal. No. And my my chief officer and I did independent passage plans and looking at the weather, and we saw a front come in this way, a nasty one, and then and then another one coming from that way, and possibly a four-hour window in the middle or six-hour window in the middle. And we both came to the same conclusion. If we leave here at that time and do that speed for that part of the journey, then we can slow down and get into right. So I'm not gonna use the word risk, there was no risk, we had mitigated the risk. Yeah, and I remember telling our DPA, my plan is to do 14-15 knots, which is her economic cruising speed. If I'm doing 12 knots, and you they're gonna watch us on the AIS, right? If we're doing 12 knots, then it's a bit lumpy out there. Yeah. If I'm doing eight or nine knots, I might be thinking about turning around and going back. We sat at 19 knots in a three-meter C, three meter C, you wouldn't spill your martini. You wouldn't spill your cup of tea. It was flat. Like a train on tracks. Right? Water parting as we sliced through it. Fee is less than a centimetre wide at the bow. The strike plate is so narrow and sharp. And her B max is a long way aft.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So she she she's the hydrodynamics and the job that Perry did unbelievable. And and I remember showing people some of the early renderings of the boat, and people are going, that's a weird-looking hull shape. But now you can't pick up any yachting magazine, and everyone's building boats with holes a little bit like ours.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because they make sense. Yeah. So Fee at sea is, I've been doing this, it's my 30th year. I've never been to sea on anything like that. She's quiet. If you would didn't look out the window, you wouldn't know you were moving. And we s we just slid through a three-metre sea. No problem. Glorious. Absolutely glorious. My second favourite feature has to be the main deck aft, which is it's 26 metres from the transom to the salon doors. Spread over three levels. Slightly, you know, three stairs in between each level. There's a an eight and a half meter swimming pool in there. There's the rotating furniture. It's all outside, but it doesn't feel outside. And when you're sitting at the dining table, it feels like an 80-meter boat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because there's a huge amount of outside space. You've seen it, you've been there.
SPEAKER_01I agree. It's a very unique layout and feel. And she feels much bigger when you stand there looking back than actually she is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And that's just again tricks of colour, ceiling height, design layout, furniture placement, all this sort of stuff. Little tricks that that make her feel much, much, much bigger than just the 58-meter boat.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Okay, George, one last one for you. So designing fee, your well, that was your first foray and uh super yacht design. What lessons did you learn from the project that you've taken forward into other projects you've done since?
SPEAKER_02One of the big ones was was uh holding and holding a nerve throughout the throughout the design process because there was kind of lots because of the complexity of competitive design, there were quite quite a few moments where you know where we could have with where you know fit art companies sort of say it saying, oh, you know, you could we could simplify it maybe by doing a little bit of this, and or we really are we really gonna be doing are we really gonna do that juncture on the ceiling and etc etc. So um so yeah, there's quite a lot of um quite a lot of holding my nerve on those details and said, no, no, no, we need to work, we need to we need to work through it. Um and and yeah, those are the those are the details that you know that when we were walking around with um with the guys that built it were you know were celebrating. They're like, oh, you know, so so pleased that so pleased that we um that we that we did, you know, that we did it. Um so that was one of the big ones, um just yeah, so hold hold holding a nerve around a meeting table.
SPEAKER_01And having faith in in your ideas, I guess also because like we say, this is such a unique project, and you came forward with the ideas that owner loved all of them. So going away from that thinking, actually, I do know what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01When I went round it, and obviously, like I keep saying, my uneducated view, you don't walk in and think, whoa, yeah, there's so many different things going on. And like we keep saying, you know, the details are actually very delicate in places and things that maybe you wouldn't notice first. So I guess going forward from projects, it gives you a little bit of faith, knowing that actually details are super important, but you can still make a space super comfortable, usable, and not overwhelming, but have that story behind them because this is an unbelievable story of a space, isn't it? Everything has been so well thought and had the owner in the back of everybody's mind, every single thing, every texture, every surface, every joint has had him and his engineering mind at the back of what you're you're doing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. For sure.
SPEAKER_01There'll never be another project like it, I suppose.
SPEAKER_03But I think all the people that built her will be like, oh, thank God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But like you say, I actually keep saying it's such a shame she's not, you know, been seen more. But what's interesting is there have been things taken from her that other people have gone on to replicate. So, okay, so we're gonna move on now to um her situation. So back in December 2021, after her launch, you brought her over to the UK, and I can imagine you and the crew and the team were elated with pride. Um, and you were here a couple of months, and then just before a planned departure, Fee was then detained by the then Secretary of Transport for the UK, Grant Shaps. He cited powers granted under the Russian sanctions regulations.
SPEAKER_03Powers drafted at half past nine the night before.
SPEAKER_01Which allow the detention of assets deemed by the British government to be connected with Russia. He also went on to publicly state on various platforms that Fee was owned by a Russian oligarch, and to this day, the owner of Fee has never been personally sanctioned by any government in the world, and currently Fee, as the ASA, is the only one seized from a non-sanctioned person. Okay, so there's a lot to unpack.
SPEAKER_03Yes, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01So let's start with the 28th of March. So leading up to that, you've been in London, you are British, your family are based here, you'd bought this amazing vessel to the UK, super proud, happy to share. The crew have all come over, everyone's preparing then to leave. And what actually happens on the 28th of March?
SPEAKER_03Three police officers in uniform and a one civilian photographer turned up in a black cab. They approached the boat, they asked to speak to the captain. I was standing there having my coffee. We were planning to be leaving within the hour. He was very polite. He said, Good morning, sir. Um, I'm obliged to hand you this. It was a brown envelope, and I said, What's in there? And he said to me, This is a whole pile of SHIT. And he said, And I'm sorry for it. And he handed me the envelope. And I opened it, read it. It is uh one paragraph, one sentence. That uh Fee is detained on the grounds that she is owned, managed, operated, or chartered by a person connected to Russia. Right. Quote unquote. And uh so I'm like, right, what does that mean? And he said, it means you're not leaving. I said, okay. So can we come on board? Sure. Came on board, asked to see various documentation. I rang the family office and I said, Can I cooperate? And they said, Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I uh handed them all sorts of documents pertaining to the the corporate structure of the owner of the boat and the UBO behind it. Um it is uh you know, it says more about the Secretary of State for Transport. It says more about his ignorance to the world of transport than than anything else, because all large yachts, if they're commercially registered, i.e. destined for charter, are all owned by a commercial entity for VAT efficiency, right? So they're all owned by a company in a uh a VAT efficient flag state. So uh there's boat company uh three directors and a UBO.
SPEAKER_01Of course, that's normal.
SPEAKER_03All boats are owned like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So Mr. Ships is standing there like a big game hunter, and this is no exaggeration, he is filming himself like this, getting his hair and his makeup done and lights like that set up, filming himself like a big game hunter, saying uh that that the ownership structure is deliberately complicated so as to hide the true identity of the owner. He said this on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01Where all good people get their news from.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yes, yes. So he said it on TikTok. He called him an oligarch, he called him a friend of Vladimir Putin, and that a deliberately complicated ownership structure.
SPEAKER_01And at this point, when he turned up, had he bothered to speak with you at all?
SPEAKER_03He got there before the police got there.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So sh the first thing that happened was that my son's rugby coach, who was a camera operator for Sky TV, and on the Downing Street assignment, sent me a WhatsApp message saying, I think I'm headed your way. Team just got a pages went off and said, get over to Canary Wolf.
SPEAKER_01So they alerted all of the alerted all the media, right?
SPEAKER_03So Channel 4, BBC, ITV, and Sky were all lining up and down the quay. Shaps is getting hair and makeup, and we're leaning on the rail, going, What's going on? Oh, this was interesting. Who's that guy in the suit? He looks familiar. Is he a politician? I don't know. And he's filming himself over there and over there, and the teams are following and setting up their cameras and their long microphones. Well, this is interesting, what's going on? And then the black cab with the police officers turned up.
SPEAKER_01So it was all set up. It's a cut off for the show.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01From a lot of people involved side, when they get a call to say this is what's happening, this, you know, this detainment's going to happen. I would assume that people we trust in power are educated and not ignorant. They would have done their research, they would be doing something based on evidence, correct evidence. So when they turn out to be part of the detaintment, that everything had been checked out. We've crossed the T's, we've dotted the I's.
SPEAKER_03What we're doing is So at that point, uh on that day, you know, as I've stated to various media outlets, I agree that the vessel, if it was given the geopolitical status of the world at that point, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, I agree that if there was a belief that that boat was owned by an unknown Russian individual, then that boat should have been detained.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_03While they while they look into who and what and where and how and who's this guy, yeah, where to get the money. Should have happened. But before that day, we have subsequently found out, Mr. Shaps knew he had been briefed by his own team. They knew his name, they knew his background, they knew his source of wealth, that he was not a list a named personnel person, a named individual on any sanction list anywhere. And Mr. Shaps had asked the Financial Conduct Authority numerous times to please put him on the sanctions list so that I can go down and arrest his boat. And the FCDO wrote back and said there's no legal grounds to sanction this guy.
SPEAKER_01So he had done numerous times before then. Yeah. He'd been given information by his team, he'd be in contact with the this is all public record.
SPEAKER_03This is not my opinion. Yeah. This is all public record.
SPEAKER_01And he had been in contact with the powers that are that can put people on the sanctions list, and it had been clear that there was no thought in the future that the owner would be put on the sanctions list. Correct. He still went ahead with the detainment.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01So after the TikToking and the videoing and all this going the circus on the pontoon, and you're left on board with a policeman saying you're not leaving your contact and family office, what happens then? You obviously must have spoken with the owner, and you're just left in limbo then, not really understanding exactly what's happening, just being, you know, targed out on TV and whatever else.
SPEAKER_03And you're we thought it would be a temporary, a short-term thing.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Because vessels all around the world were getting approached by authorities, right? Wanting to know who, what, when, and how.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was happening all over the Mediterranean. And all over the world, in fact. Yeah. And Russian-sanctioned owners of super yachts had their vessels arrested. I mean, we're talking about if we go right back to the people have benefited from their patronage of the Russian regime.
SPEAKER_01But what I mean is the situation your your owner cannot be compared because he's still to this day the only person in the world who's had an asset detained when he's not on a list.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_01And the government have checked out his uh funds and the ownership structure of the vessel, and that's all ticked all the boxes that it needs to.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01So he can't be compared to anyone really in the world because this, to our knowledge, this is the only situation like there.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So where do you even start from there? I'm guess the owner's obviously calling his solicitor, but I would imagine even the solicitor's scratching his head because there's no other case like it. You know, it's been four years.
SPEAKER_03So we started at the uh the High Court, the British High Court, where uh the judge that uh heard the case, it was his last case before he retired, and um he discussed that Mr. Shapps' description of the owner as an oligarch, a crony, a friend of Putin was the judge dismissed that as acceptable political hyperbole. Our legal team interpreted that as slander and libel.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I mean there's no evidence to prove that he No, that's right.
SPEAKER_03In fact, there's evidence that Shaps knew to knew to the contrary. Okay, so watch this space. There will be a lot more unwrapped on this. And it wasn't accurate, it wasn't truthful. Okay, so he lied to the world and he knew he was doing it for political leverage, social media life.
SPEAKER_01Who knows what his reasons were? But now, as you say, it's it's open to the public to see that there was evidence there to show that what he was detaining the vessel for actually wasn't. That's right.
SPEAKER_03That's why they redrafted at 9 30 the night before to the connected to.
SPEAKER_01Right, okay. Okay. Because his original reasons didn't hold up, so then the reasons were changed the night before.
SPEAKER_03The fact that he is normally resident in Russia, and the fact that he holds a Russian passport satisfies the prerequisites of connected to.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And so after the High Court, we went to the Court of Appeal, and the Court of Appeal, there there were uh there were three of them, uh on the uh two of them, two judges, and they were almost apologetic in their ruling. They uh they ruled to uphold the detention. And they ruled that because they said it's pretty black and white. Your guy is connected to, because the definition of connected to is normally resident in and a holder of a passport, and you haven't denied it. We we didn't deny that yeah he's normally resident in, he does have a passport. So that satisfies the legal prerequisite of connected to. And the regulation states we can nick your things if you're connected to. Sorry about that. Detention upheld. Emma are you not here to interpret whether it's right or wrong, just or unjust?
SPEAKER_01So what they were basically saying is because the detainment pub uh paperwork that had been created at 9.30 the night before had been changed to connected to Russia, not that it was a friend of Putin or connected to whatever. Just it was simply connected to Russia. So the High Court said that's correct, he is connected to Russia. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So if it had been the original paperwork with the reasons that Grant Shapps had put, then that wouldn't have been so under the powers of the Secretary of State during extraordinary geopolitical situations, i.e., a war going on, they have arbitrary powers to expand regulations. Their regulations, they're not laws, they're not discussed by lawmakers, they're not voted on in parliament. It's one guy just decides decides, and his team said, right, well, under the these powers, you're the guy in that chair with that badge on your lipel. You you can you can do this. It's legal for you to write these emergency regulations.
SPEAKER_00That's frightening.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm gonna call this an emergency, I'm gonna write a regulation. And he did, and that's what the court said. He's allowed to do that. So then on to the Supreme Court.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Five judges. We split the panel. Three, two, not in our favour. And they ruled that the continued detention of fee, I mean, I'm massively summarizing. Of course, yes, a lot of meat in the sandwich, but they summarized that uh the continued detention of fee satisfies the foreign policy objectives of the current British government. They liked the way it looked.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03It satisfies the foreign policy objectives of the current British government, and the current Brit government foreign policy objectives were not were stated in court, and again a matter of public record. We do not want to appear that we have softened our stance on the Russia-U flank Ukraine conflict. We are against this conflict. And if we now let feet go, we're either admitting that a mistake was made, which no government's ever gonna do that, right? Or we're saying, oh well, we're not so anti-Russia now.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So it's a catch-22, rock hard place.
SPEAKER_01I mean, this leaves you in a position where this the circus dies down and off they go, and then you are left with a boat and a full crew with no timeline. How how operationally are you running the vessel? How are you keeping the crew motivated? Because you can't give them any answers, I guess, to actually what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_03That's challenging. And um we held uh uh almost full crew until the 31st of December 25.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03So until the end of last year, we had an almost full crew. Most of them were the same crew that built the boat.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So they stayed.
SPEAKER_03They know who the owner is, they know that this is a circus. And they all had options. Okay, they all had options. And you know, a couple of them came to me and and really upset and said, Look, I need to go. I need I can't, you know, younger people that are trying to progress through the course.
SPEAKER_01I mean it affects them too.
SPEAKER_03Totally understandable, right? The rest of them I had to let go, which was awful for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I had to let them go, and we're now uh with a skeleton crew of three. Keeping them motivated, um, to be honest with you, wasn't as hard as it would appear. Because they I mean they're they all have an inherent sense of justice, they're all disgusted at this situation, they know they're okay. And his kids and so on and so forth. So their loyalty was was unquestioned. And um this is why it was so painful for them that chose to leave, and why it was painful for me to dismiss the rest of them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, because I'd imagine all the crew would have been so proud to because she's so special to be part of the project and then launch come to the UK and nothing. I'm gonna get them all back unjust.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna headhunt them all when we get out of here. I'm gonna go and get them all back.
SPEAKER_01Oh okay. So in May 2023, you worked really closely with representatives and officers of the Maritime Police Unit and the MCA to draft a plan to enable you to move Fee to Southampton's Ocean Village Marina to allow essential maintenance work because let's face it, a brand new boat is not meant to sit for four years in a building site. In a building site with no access to anything.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01This plan was never executed. Um what happened and what is the current physical state of Fee where she sits today?
SPEAKER_03So I really hope that the chief inspector that I worked with that I can't name him, but um I hope he sees this. I might drop him a little bit. We can send it to him. Right. Uh, two of them, two guys, both of them uh ex um military maritime. Okay, so they know boats. And and now they're in law enforcement. So they came to the boat and with with a view to putting together a proposal of how we get this boat from London to Southampton. Yeah, lots of moving parts in there, but fairly straightforward. First of all, we ask Ocean Village Marina, have you got space for us? And will you allow us? Yeah, certainly. Surrounded by some of the best maritime service providers, you know, second to the Med or the USA, I would imagine. Southampton was right. Um we could get the work done that we needed to get done. The boat was never finished. She's still on, she's still under warranty. Yeah, sure. There were systems that were never, you know, we needed support. We drafted a passage plan that looked at tide restrictions at this end and at the other end. Yeah. Um uh waypoints, fuel consumption, um, exactly when when we should leave and when we would arrive and and how long it would take. And it involved a brief stop at the bottom of the Thames while we went to anchor in the in in the estuary, while we uh opened up all of the machinery and clean sea tests and whatnot, having sat still for so long, and having transited the Thames, we imagine it. Certain level of biological marine growth and and all the sea strainers and whatnot. So it was down the Thames with a pilot, stop at the anchorage four, six, eight hours, depending on what we find, and then on to Southampton. More up in Southampton, tie up Passeralia bear time. And the nothing happened. For two years, nothing happened. More than two years. After a couple of years, the chief inspector that was putting it all together for us quit. Quit the this assignment, and he said to me, if there was ever a war, I'd shoot these people first before they put my team in jeopardy. He said, I'm sorry, guy, I'm done with it. Yeah, I still have that email. I'm done with it. He said, Every time I ring them or visit them, there's a new, there's change in personnel. So we have to start over explaining what it is. What do you mean you're gonna move a ship? Well, it's a boat. But okay, so we're gonna move it from there to there. They overcomplicated the situation with involving Coast Guard cutters and police gunships and black hawk helicopters with SAS.
SPEAKER_01That because they were worried that you were gonna risk of absconding.
SPEAKER_03Right, in their words.
SPEAKER_01But your wife and children live in the UK.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, as did most of the other crew.
SPEAKER_01Most of the crew.
SPEAKER_03All British passport holders, yeah. All families here. We're not going to get out into the channel, turn left, and go to France.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_03Because we'd never come back, and if we did, we'd be locked up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you wouldn't be able to come back, would you? That's well, that's it.
SPEAKER_03Or maybe they'd come and get us. I guess right. Um and we tried to over we tried to simplify it. And so we don't need all of these all these moving parts. It's not as complicated as your all we need is two or three or however many officers want to come.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Bring your sunglasses and your slippers, we'll get the fishing rods out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And just be on board and be on board.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm not going to kidnap two police maritime officers, am I?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_03So um, no, that was just too much to get the head around.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03And for two years we warned if we don't do this, that it's the the clock's ticking. And we just strolled right on past that critical timeline. And now, because we've been unable to have uh special periodical hull survey which you need to come out of the water.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03W uh we're out of class. We can't go to sea. And because we're out of class, and because we're detained, we can't get PI insurance. And without PI insurance, Ocean Village aren't allowed to have us there. No. And we're not allowed at sea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So now it's a vicious circle and a rock and a hard place situation where actually going to sea isn't really an option.
SPEAKER_03No, that's right.
SPEAKER_01So uh so we're saying the state of the boat. I mean, you've had to put scaffolding up and you know, take measures because people, you know, you've had people coming on board the boat. Actually, where she is is not a great safe place for her to be. No, it's not the crew have been attacked.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've had um you know, we've had before we put our current safety measures in place, we've had drunken teenagers climb up to the roof of the boat and sit there 35 metres in the air drinking vodka and and uh hanging out at two o'clock in the morning. If they fell, it's a long way down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, we've had black balaclava cat clad teenagers charge up the passerale and and shove aside the chief stewardess. And you know, fortunately, we see all of that on the cameras. So eight lads come out with interested in a game of cricket or a game of golf or whatever other sporting equipment you can grab on your way out the door and and uh have a quick chat to these lads who scarpered pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_01But also the there's been a lot of building, hasn't there, around where she is. So the actual physical condition of the boat has been heavily affected by that.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Yeah, well, she's opposite us in Canary Wharf, there have been five multi-story high-rise buildings have been built. Um steel grinding, concrete cutting. We vacuum up minute pieces of airborne steel that sit and rust on your paint. Concrete dust, although we clean it up as best we can, it does get down your deck drains. Of course. Concrete dust, water deck drain problem. Um so this is why we've had to cover our own scaffolding and corrugated iron roof structure. Try and protect, and we're right under the flight path of city airport.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So protecting us from all of these pollutions is uh why we now the boat looks like a Syrian refugee campus.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I guess being where you are, there's not really easy access to get trades and and zero, none, no parking. No.
SPEAKER_03We can't get shoreside uh containers or workshops, we can't get pallet delivery. No. We've got no uh waste uh services, we have power services.
SPEAKER_01So the normal maintenance of even if the boat was just sitting there for a prolonged period of time, you're not even able to do the basic maintenance.
SPEAKER_03We can do what we can do on board.
SPEAKER_01On board, yeah. Anything else is uh no-go.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so sh at the moment then you really are in limbo with what's happening. And what is the next step? Is there another hearing coming up? Do you know when that will be?
SPEAKER_03So we were given permission to, and we have done, uh, file a case with the European Court of Human Rights.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, to which the UK is a founding member and is still a signatory to. Um we are obliged to have exhausted all domestic options before we approach the ECHR, which is why we had to go through the multi-level British judiciary system.
SPEAKER_01Right. So that's a process that you've been advised to follow that way you've done it. Yeah, that's to go tick all the boxes.
SPEAKER_03Yep, correct. And so we've approached the ECHR, we've filed a case with them and we're uh waiting on uh the assignment of a of a hearing date. Uh we are optimistic that that will be b before the summer.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03But I mean they don't give you any feedback. So the I mean, this has all happens above my pay grade, but uh our team approach them. Yes, we've received your documents, we'll get back to you in due course, and that's about it. And then you just you can't badger them for a court date, they just don't respond.
SPEAKER_01And in the meantime, the owner has not been able to obviously visit, so that must be heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_03It's not sanctioned, remember? So you can fly in and we go out for dinner.
SPEAKER_01Would he would he want to visit the boat or is it painful for him?
SPEAKER_03The latter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would imagine so.
SPEAKER_03It's um it is it is painful for him, it's causes him nothing but grief and anguish. I'm sure. Because it's just been the subject of pain.
SPEAKER_01Sure, and as a family, it must be hard to have publicity that is due to something that's not actually just kids, you know, hearing all this stuff on the news and Yeah, precisely. Yeah, that must be awful. Goodness. Okay, so you guys and you and the crew will just to continue to maintain the vessel as you can until such times as the next hearing, and your hope is for the next hearing is that the detainment would be lifted, or is it a case that would put you into the next realm of legal procedures?
SPEAKER_03Well, we're obviously ever hopeful that the ECHR will will rule in our favour and that that it has been um impinged upon his human rights for access and use of his rightfully owned property.
SPEAKER_01Right. And if they do rule in that favour, would that mean the detainment was lifted and the boat could potentially Well Is it as simple as that?
SPEAKER_03No, it's not as simple as that. The the UK, although it's signatory to the ECHR, and although the current government are making many I I don't want to use the word excuses, but they're they're they're rationalizing many of the current decisions of the current government uh based on rulings driven down from Brussels.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Right? That there's still is certainly human rights-related issues, immigration or mass migration being the big one. Right. That the the government say their hands are tied because of the ECHR. So, in some senses, they are listening to the ECHR, but they are not legally obliged to comply with the rulings of the ECHR.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So they could turn around and they say, thank you, ECHR, we we hear what you say, but it still suits our foreign policy goals. They could do that. They could do that. Hypocritical as that would be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03And of course the media will have a field day with that, um, it is a possibility.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh I don't know much about the uh about any of the legal proceedings, to be honest with you, Alicia. But uh yeah, I would imagine there's a an appeals process. But the owner's now so upset with the situation um as I mentioned, his wife and children have they're not that f fussed about it anymore. No. Um that he w might possibly uh just consider the nuclear option and sell it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Sell the boat. He doesn't want to, he could have done that years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's why he's sunk so much money into the legal battles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and kept fighting for kept fighting, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Just on the principle of justice, yeah. There must come a point where actually At the at the point, yeah, where he said, you know what, I'm just gonna go back to Royal Houseman and build another one and not come to England.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right? We'll just sail straight past.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And go down to the men. Where we wouldn't be detained at all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You might just do that.
SPEAKER_01Oh goodness. Okay, well, that was unbelievably eye-opening and interesting, if not sort of leaves quite a bad taste in the mouth, feeling the unfairness of it all. I can't imagine the stress that you and the crew and obviously the owner and everyone have been through. So I can only say that we keep everything cross for you, that there's a resolution to the situation at some point this year. And yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03We remain ever hopeful, Alicia. If um if I knew that the owner was a scallywag, if I knew that he was in business with the wrong people, yeah, I would have walked years ago. Sure. But this now for me and for the crew, and for George, and for Cor and everyone else who are still and and Perry and Houseman is still deeply invested. Yeah, this is a matter of honour now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Can't walk.
SPEAKER_01I mean you've worked with him for over almost two decades, right?
SPEAKER_03Sixteen years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So for sure, if it's personal for you as it is for everyone.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I've faced my own demons through this battle. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because professionally for you it's tough, right? You're fighting a battle that feels unjust, but also at the same time you built the boat for the owner to take to sea and be a captain.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it would have been very easy for me to jump the two, and I've received offers and expressions of interest to go and get on another boat and be right now, be uh mincing around in in Cannes or Monaco.
SPEAKER_01That's not for you.
SPEAKER_03I can I can on another boat, chartering and yeah.
SPEAKER_01But like I say, it's personal for you, also, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I couldn't do that. I know a lot of a lot of guys and a lot of followers of your channel are people that are exactly like me. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure that I like to think that most of them would do exactly what I've done. Yeah. Dig their heels in and not be beaten.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's just hope there's light at the end of the tunnel and that the next time we sit and chat, we'll be celebrating over a cocktail around the pool. That would be lovely. I'll be there.
SPEAKER_03An anchor of can somewhere. That would be nice.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you. It's been wonderful to chat with you. And I'm really glad that we got to really delve into the journey of building her. Because as I say, I've seen her and she is so unique. But I feel that you guys have communicated that so well in our conversation. And fingers crossed, the next time we sit down and chat, we are celebrating. Thank you both.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Alicia. Thanks for such a pleasure. No, thank you.