On The Bridge

On The Bridge with NOxFree, Nuclear Propulsion Panel Part 1

• Alicia Store

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On this special two part episode of On The Bridge, Alicia sits down with a powerhouse panel to discuss the future of maritime energy. 

Join Derek Munro (co-founder of NOxFree), Ben Geary (chief operating officer of Döhle) and Jez Sims (principal specialist at Lloyd's Register) as they explore the groundbreaking NOxFree Project.

"You will never have to bunker fuel again."  

For decades, the idea of nuclear-powered superyachts has lived firmly in the realm of science fiction. However, a quiet engineering revolution is taking place that could see a zero-emission, fossil-fuel-free vessel hitting the water by 2030.

From debunking the stigma around nuclear power to creating more space onboard by removing a diesel tank, this episode covers:
● The role of NOxFree and the development of nuclear propulsion concepts
● What “unity modules” are and how they work
● Public perception and misconceptions around nuclear energy
● Why yachting could become the proving ground for future maritime technology
● The commercial and economic arguments for nuclear adoption

Chapters:
00:00 – Introductions
00:51 – How did the NOxFree nuclear yacht project begin?
03:42 – What is a nuclear “unity module” and how does it work?
06:04 – Why could nuclear energy transform modern yachting?
10:47 – How would nuclear propulsion change yacht design and operations?
16:00 – What regulations and safety challenges still need solving?
20:35 – How safe is modern nuclear technology really?
27:08 – What role does Lloyd's Register play in nuclear-powered vessels?
31:02 – Could nuclear propulsion change the future of global shipping?
42:35 – What is the biggest barrier to nuclear-powered yachts becoming reality?

If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review to help more people find the conversation.

Find out more about dsnm:
Website: https://www.dsnmltd.com/
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A special thank you to Kindful Creative for producing this episode.

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SPEAKER_03

On this episode of On the Bridge, we are going to explore a much debated and potentially transformative idea in superiors, nuclear propulsion. Not theory, but real discussions about whether nuclear could power the next generation of yachts and what that means for owners, builders, and the wider industry. I'm joined by Derek Munro from Knox Free, Ben Geary from Doula Yacht Management, and Jess Sims from Lloyd's Register. This is part one of a two-part podcast. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining me, Jess, Ben, and Derek. So I'm going to crack on with the questions because this is an interesting subject that I'm intrigued to know more about from three experts. So, Derek, let's start with you. Where did the Knox free journey begin? And what problem are you trying to solve in yachting?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so it started in June 21 when a client approached me to see about putting nuclear onto yachts. And the purpose of it was that if he could prove to the public that he was a multi-billionaire, happily sitting on his yacht with a nuclear-powered vessel, obviously, that then it would be safe for public use on land. Sure. He ultimately wants nuclear to be a of the main power source on land to clean up the planet. Um, so we had a long conversation on the phone. I figured out that yes, I wanted to be involved in the project, and I said, look, we'll put together a feasibility study for you and we'll present it to you at the Monaco boat show. So we put together a 287-page feasibility study, and he asked me to keep it very confidential. So I brought in two friends who I knew were really into the nuclear package and uh and a designer. So Dave Lewis from Lawrence Giles is part of the Knox Free team, and so is Steve Rasmussen from Rasmus and Marine. Um, so we're like I said, we created this 287-page feasibility study, gave it to him. Um, he went away and read it six weeks later, came back, said, right, let's let's proceed and develop a project, see how we can make it work, um, and how we can integrate it into the vessel and the effects it would have on the vessel. We then went out and we traveled around, we visited a few manufacturers and we looked at um how at that time we would put a nuclear module into a boat. And at the time, the smallest we could find kind of find was 15 to 18 megawatts, which is actually really large. So it meant that the boat had to be 120 meters plus in size. Um and so we went down this development track and created a GA, did all 3D modeling, um, visited a few shipyards, um, got everyone involved, and then the client decided in 24 that um he wanted to put a bit of a pause on things. Um, and at that point, we because we'd invested so much time in it and we believed in it, um, we as Knox Free decided that we would continue. Engel De Boer from Lloyd's, uh, who at the time we'd obviously worked together at that stage for about three years, and um he said, Look, I think I've got a product that you might be interested in. So he introduced me to the owner of Deployable Energy, and Bobby and I had a good long chat, and um, and then we said, Right, let's move this into the yacht and marine segment. Um, and their unit is the one megawatt um deployable energy, what we call the unity module. Right. Um, and the idea obviously is to reduce fossil fuel use, get rid of boats using fossil fuels as much as possible.

SPEAKER_03

So what what is the Unity module then in simple terms?

SPEAKER_02

In simple terms, it is a m one megawatt um module. It's 2.8 meters in diameter, just under three meters in length, um, fully loaded with all the shielding and everything, it's uh 40, 45 tons in weight. Um it can fit anywhere into a boat. We believe it'll fit into anything over 40 meters, depending obviously on the regulations and what's required on top of that shielding, if anything. Yeah. Ideally, there'll be nothing extra required, in which case you just slot it in kind of like a generator. Um, then which case there's no fuel tanks, no diesel on board at all, um, and everything becomes electric.

SPEAKER_03

So that's my next sort of question. Why nuclear then, rather than hydrogen or batteries or we believe that, well, it'll be a combination of two things, in our opinion.

SPEAKER_02

Um, we'll be putting nuclear with batteries onto boats. Right. Um, and that's there's a reason for that, and that is that if you power down a nuclear unit, when all these new micro reactors will be able to be powered down and powered up. So if you powered down because you're at anchor and you're only using, let's say, 20% load because the crew is on board, if you needed to move in an emergency, it's like having an emergency generator on a boat. You'd use your batteries to get your anchor up to get everything going whilst the the nuclear unit safely ramps up. Right. And that doesn't take long. That's you know, it's it's minutes. But at the same time, as as any captain or engineer knows, if you need to move, you need to move now. Yeah, so it'll be an instant. So the batteries are there to balance that that out. And also if you if you set your boat up correctly in the future, you'll probably find that if you install the batteries and the and the right amount of unity modules, that you'll increase the life expectancy of this Unity module because you're using your batteries a bit more. Yeah. So otherwise, if you you relied on the Unity module, your life's going to be maybe 10, 12 years. Right. Maybe a little bit more with yacht usage. Um, but by using the batteries as well, you could extend that out to 20, 25, 30 years, depending on the battery pack. We see it being a combination of the two. Um, and and by doing that, um, you know, by 2030, assuming all the testing that's happening right now, um, proceeds well, uh, we should see boats over 40 meters, zero fossil fuels. That's that's the hope.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it doesn't seem that far away, 2030.

SPEAKER_02

It's one build cycle away. Yeah. You know, for a big boat. That's one of the reasons we're discussing it all now.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so Ben, okay. That there's so much to unpack that I'm so interested, but let's sort of go back to that. So, Ben, what made you get involved in the discussions of nuclear? And from an owner and operational perspective, what are your thoughts on the comparison to alternatives?

SPEAKER_01

I think the reason I'm involved is it's just it's an exciting time in yachting. Okay, so we've got a number of young guys coming into our industry, into our company, and it's a really cool time when we all grew up because we're all old and grey, it was all kind of twin twin shaft, twin engines, and it was it was kind of a basic system, yeah. And now you look at technology that's coming and it's changing all the time and rapidly. Like we talked about nuclear, and Derek's been talking about it for a while, and so has Lloyd's. But really, in the last 18 months, has it kind of come into the forefront in yachting? And I think what's exciting, like what Derek started with, is it takes an owner to go, I want to show the world that this happens. You know, we've seen it with like the liquid hydrogen boats and others. You need one person who is generally very wealthy to kind of prove that this technology is working, that it's fundamental, will improve what we're doing. And you know, we are all in yachting because we love it, yeah. And it's uh it's a time where you know we are yachting is being the Formula One of the maritime world, which for a long time people have pretended it is, but actually, I think reality now is with the technologies, with the green technologies coming, they are pushing it, and yards are pushing it, designers are pushing it, and so I'm I'm excited by it because as Derek said, you know, what will happen in maritime, and Jez will say the same thing is there will be multiple fuels depending on where you're going, what you're doing, and this benefits the yachting world because, as Derek said, you know, the lifespan potentially 15 to 25 years, you never have to bunker fuel, yeah. Ever. And if you can fit it on a 40 meter, you know, my when I grew up in yachting, that was the size of boats we were producing. You can go back to high-speed yachts, you're not trying to be economic on fuel, but you're green, you know, you are pushing out green energy and you can go fast, you can go forever without having to bunker fuel, which makes a massive difference and to the experience of yachting.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, maintenance costs also drop significantly, you know, with uh not only the fact that you don't have to buy fuel for your boat, but the maintenance of the engines and everything that goes with it, the exhaust systems, the flaps for firefighting, all that stuff just drops away significantly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And even even space. So the interior designers will get very excited because suddenly you'll have more space. You haven't got the fuel tanks, you may have smaller engine rooms. You know, the space that becomes available as well, which in yachting, as anyone will tell you, whether you've got a 30-meter boat or 140-meter boat, space is a premium. Yeah, it all benefits what we're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and those huge ducts going from the engine room up to the mast. You always walk into a saloon on a moat, and in the middle, you got these windows, then this thing that pops out, and then more windows. That that's all ducting. Yeah, you get rid of all that, you're gonna have windows all the way along, so much space regained for for better purposes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I going back to what you were saying, 100% agree. Right now it feels exciting, as in the technologies, the designs that are coming out. It feels also as if owners are getting excited to try new things. You know, when you think back 20, 30 years, even building a boat with, I don't know, a different feature on was considered pushing the realms of design or technology. Whereas now it feels like people are coming into the industry and building things that they want to. I mean, look at some of the boats that have come out in the last year. The design is not just a big white, shiny gym palace, it's something different. And people are interested in investing in look at Black Pearl, which we've talked about before. So it does feel as if there's an interest in pushing forward with technologies. But always when something is new, you always get people with lots of questions and saying it won't work. And so, Derek, talk going back to what you're saying about the design then. So, what will practically, what would this mean for a boat in design and then being built to carry this technology?

SPEAKER_02

Uh, practically, you will gain a lot of space inside the vessel. Um, just like I said, from the ducting and everything else. We've we've calculated out with our 3D drawings we've done for a couple of potential clients. But as the boat gets bigger, you potentially regain a whole deck of space for the crew, you know, whether it's for storage or for putting your HVAC. Having said that, um, you know, these these units create one megawatt of electricity, but they create two megawatts of thermal power. And for the engineers that understand that, that that means from that you can make water or you can use that for air conditioning or your heating of the boat and all sorts of other things on the boat, which means that those systems, and I hate to say it for the suppliers, but those systems potentially will not be required on the boat, which means you have even more space, right?

SPEAKER_03

So it's not actually just fueling the boat to go from A to B. Yeah, it will change the way a boat physically operates.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. If you integrate and have the ability to put to use all the possibilities that are there, yeah, you can get rid of so many other systems. Yeah. Therefore gaining even more space. And potentially that means your boats will look lower. You won't need that extra deck because you've got you've dropped everything down, you've got rid of all your tanks, you've dropped everything down lower. So the profile of the boat will change if that's what you want. Yeah. Um there is a there's the space gain is probably obviously and the fuel and everything else.

SPEAKER_03

But that's really interesting that okay, obviously, space is wonderful, and I'm sure every designer would be very happy if they could make more of uh, you know, the size boat they're building. But actually, then it's gonna sort of make the whole system more efficient, you know. That for crew, that means their time, maybe they have more time if you're on a boat, you know, with a certain amount of crew, so actually it's potentially gonna change the whole way, not just the boat's built and run, but actually then how it operates. So that's something I didn't realise. That's really interesting. Yeah, really interesting. Okay, so Ben, from a build and management perspective, how disruptive is is what we're talking about in reality? So if you if someone comes to you and they want to build a boat powered by nuclear, what what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01

I think you've got you've got two bits with all new technology. One will be operational, so the crew and do we need crew training? What kind of awareness do you need? Yeah, and the other one is practicality of fitting one of these things into your vessel. And I suppose this is a question for you guys is you know, when you look at the operation and side of this, and we've talked about it before, that these boxes are in essence a sealed box. Yeah. But uh my question, I suppose, is can you as a shipyard go and fit that yourself, or do you have to go to a uh a facility that is certified suitable to be able to move that on board and sit it in? Because what you we've talked about before is these units you almost you know can take out and put back in 20 years later. Because as we know, all yachts live forever. Yeah, so that reflip process. But uh, that's my question is how do we can, I don't know, San Lorenzo, Santiago, Lursen, FedShip put in one of these themselves, or are we gonna have to adapt the facility to enable it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's a very good question.

SPEAKER_03

That's gonna be the side of it.

SPEAKER_02

It's gonna come down a lot to the the regulators. I mean, at the moment we're planning in in all of our designs that there's a soft patch that you know these units will come in and out of. Um, for our unit, and I think it's similar for some of the other ones coming in the future, is essentially we have four pipes coming off the unit. So the unit itself will be stored in a space. The four pipes connect to the power generation, which is the turbines and of ours that create the electricity. Um, so you you decouple the four pipes and you slide the unit out of the unit or units, right? Out the side of the boat. Ideally, it's probably the easiest way. Um, and then you weld it shut and you carry on. Um, depending on what happens with regulation and IMO, we would obviously like to see that shipyards will be able to install it once we've once we've tested the unit, which is happening right now, we've where our unit was fueled up two weeks ago. It is currently now sitting at the Idaho National Lab in the US, which is where they test all new nuclear technology. Um, and so we will know a lot more in six months. Uh and we've put they're pushing the boundaries, they're testing all the systems. Lloyds will know a lot more, you know, we'll have a lot more information about it. But ideally, we'd like to see these as a generator where you just anyone can pretty much pop it in, pop it out. Now that will probably take time for the local ports and the local areas to accept that. And that's where you know having all the results from this testing will be a huge benefit, hopefully, if it all goes well. Um, but otherwise, yeah, I guess it's up to regulation and and Jiz and his team.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think um so almost certainly, definitely, um shipyards and and shipbuilders are going to need some kind of um license or or permissioning from a nuclear regulator to handle nuclear material. Goes without saying to the level at which um they're required to do that is is yet to be determined. Um, I think a lot of what we're looking at is a sort of proportional, graded approach to nuclear, so not the kind of um infrastructure requirements that that naval bases require for, say, operation on nuclear submarines, but if it's just a matter of handling and and and installing um something like the Unity battery, then can that be done um at a much more sort of um proportional level? I think uh clearly these shipyards are gonna need to have um sort of um processes and procedures in place in the event of um certain accidents and and scenarios and and the public around that, uh you know, that's gonna be very important. The transparency about the safety and and what to do in the event of is key to all of this. But um, yeah, I mean there's there's conversations ongoing about what that looks like or what might that need to look like. You can talk about it for for the Unity battery, but if we want to talk this more holistically about all potential maritime nuclear, then there's a range of different applications and a range of different potential consequences. So the proportionality grows depending on what you're handling, therefore, shipyards may need differing levels of of um sort of regulation to handle different applications.

SPEAKER_03

And I guess actually, sorry, the wider conversation is not just the builder, but like you've just said then, boats going into port. Yeah, that's you know, there's it's it is actually it's a bit, it's not just gonna be a case of okay, let's train these people and they can pop the module in. There is gonna be a shift in all facilities where boats might go are gonna need to have regulation. But Jez, oh, sorry, sorry, but we've seen that.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, we and this is to be a positive side of it, you know, we've seen it with like liquid hydrogen, yeah. Where again, exactly the same principle, ports needed to be approved. There was nervousness around where you could do it, how you could do it, and then the risk-based approach, working with class, working with the local port authorities, and again, making everyone understand the scenario, the risks involved, means that once peep ports understand that, then and you've got that risk assessment in place, then they are open to having you come along uh in, and that's happened on a number of uh various ports and is happening all the time. And I think with nuclear, there are already nuclear, let's say, approved ports for everyone, basic uh wording, but they already exist, so it's there is a functionality already there that as with everything new, just takes time as we go through the process and we talk to the different ports, and the reality of ports, you know, Monaco is already in discussion about nuclear, so are other areas where you know they they're already pre seeing that this is going to come, so they're now proactively trying to work with the authorities, not just Lloyd's, but you know, IMO and everybody to adapt to what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting. I mean, as you said, it's happening with hydrogen, but yeah, years ago it happened with LNG. Yeah, exactly. You know, we've had this process in the maritime industry for a long, long time, and and it's just about how quickly we can adapt it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Also, I think the general public are, unless you're in this circle of square of trust, this circle of trust, you know, unless you're in that area of knowledge and expertise, of course, you're not going to know all this. So, this is why it's interesting to hear this: that we're not just popping up today saying, oh, let's talk about nuclear, we're gonna put it on boats. It's been in discussion for years already, the same as any other fuel that has ever been used. It years of research and talking about safety and regulation, because safety is obviously something, and we're gonna talk about it a bit later. But all these sort of first ideas, when they come out, of course, as pushback.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

And I don't want to sound rude when I say, but it and I would be in this category. It comes from not being educated in it. It comes from hearing something from someone or on the news or something, making a judgment without truly understanding the benefits and the precautions. And so already you're years into a conversation that many people don't even know has been had.

SPEAKER_02

And we're we're talking about new technology now, not not the technology that's been in nuclear for the last 50 years. Yeah. I forget there are there are currently 700 nuclear units either floating on the water or under the water already in the world. Right. They they go into port somewhere. Um, and there are only 400 land-based units, you know, and and so maritime and nuclear has been around since the 50s, 60s, um, and a lot has happened.

SPEAKER_03

And the technology's aim you're getting safer and better like everything.

SPEAKER_02

So well, and those vessels all use roughly, I think it's as a broad, they're they're either 20, 25, or 28 megawatt units, right? And they're far more enriched in uranium than our unit is. You know, we're a five percent, we're called a low enriched uranium, so we're five percent uranium in our units. And theirs, I Jez, you'll know better than I do for the Navy stuff. I'm not sure what you're allowed to talk about. You know, but but you know it's it's something up around so much uranium, though. Yeah, it's high they're highly rich in uranium. And if you want to create a bomb, you need something like 95% pure, and which is why Iran's been struggling to make it. Yeah, we talk about them and what's happening, but they've struggled for years to make it because it's not something you just pick up a bunch of uranium and and add it all together and suddenly it's 95%.

SPEAKER_03

And you've got to have, I guess, the technology to create that and the people with the expertise to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. So, you know, and and yeah, the the next thing we have are now we're we're looking at one megawatt units for for the yacht industry, potentially, and five megawatt units maybe for the bigger boats. Right. All right. So those are going to be the two that we really have. To focus on for the yacht industry, in my opinion. So the harbors, we need to obviously we're going to prove in the next six months that ours is safe. Yeah. That our one mega so that the other manufacturers will be trying to prove that their five megawatt units are safe.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But if you're saying one megawatt and there's already 700 vessels at sea with potentially 28 megawatt, they will have to go in somewhere. So already there's facilities that are capable of taking vessels with 28 megawatts. So actually, what you're doing is not new. It's just your technology will be new to yachting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And also, you know, those units when those big units, when they go into port, their safe zone is around the port, is huge.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Because they're 28 megawatts.

SPEAKER_02

The potential for some if it went wrong is is much bigger.

SPEAKER_03

Of course.

SPEAKER_02

Whereas ours will hope the intention is that our safe zone will be the engine room, the boat, because ours is that small and and intrinsically safe. It's also, they're also different different systems, which Jez might be able to explain better. But one, you know, they're high-pressurized systems and they use different technology. We're not, we're low pressure. So and they have um gases in them that can create hydrogen. We don't, we use helium. So you never get hydrogen. So Fukushima, the explosion was a little hydrogen explosion because things got hot, gases were released. Chernobyl's all about high pressure systems. Yeah. You know, and their pressure was massive, and the temperatures they got up to like 1800 degrees, whereas we only get to 600, we operate at 600, 800, we shut down.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So all these new systems and technologies have different safeguardings that are built into the system. And they have to shut down from 100% to zero in 200 seconds. Wow. All the new stuff will have to do that. We do that, they everyone else will do be the same. Yeah. So your safety, once you're at zero, there is, you know, there's a little bit of heat still happening, but there's no reactivity. So, you know, it's safe.

SPEAKER_03

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so a lot of thought has gone into all the new technology about making it safe, making it so you could have it in your back garden to run the village, or yeah, you know, take it to a festival and run the festival, you know, instead of having diesel generators pumping away in the background.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the secret. I think you, you know, every when you say nuclear, and most people watching this will just think of a big mushroom cloud, but the actual reality is coming and and what these units are, the driving force is land-based. So all these massive server farms, because we all talk to Chat GBT more than we talk to our own spouse, is requires huge amounts of power.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, the big, big, well-known companies are looking at these units to power their server farms. You know, they're looking at them to power smaller villages, or, you know, the ports will start looking at them to power vessels, you know, to or you know, we've seen it where in an emergency response. So, you know, when you've had a huge hurricane come through and just wipe out an entire Caribbean island, you can bring these on a barge and bring back full power to the island in less than a week. So it's the the pros outweigh the cons, and actually that public perception will change because people will see them more used to seeing them on land.

SPEAKER_03

Of course.

SPEAKER_01

So it's the whole ecosystem has changed.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you for listening to this episode so far. We have some really great guests coming up on this series, and we wouldn't want you to miss any of those future episodes. So please don't forget to click the subscribe button and enjoy the rest of this episode.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if for I mean, for example, the Deployable Energy guys have have pre-sold 2,500 units for land-based products and mainly to do with AI. And most of the interest I'm getting talking to shipyards and people is not necessarily to go on the yachts, it's to power the shipyard. Yeah. And to give them stable power because they're draining power from the local villages and towns around them. Um, so you know, and they're all engineers, they understand how clean and green it is. And obviously, by having a one megawatt unit, you're reducing the risk.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sure. I think that's such an important point that you guys have spoken about because obviously when we started, we talked about, you know, how most people hear the word nuclear and think scary.

SPEAKER_02

But actually, when you're talking about new technology, it's there's so many fail-safes in place that actually it's when you look at the three big uh incidents we've had globally, Chernobyl, Fukushima, and Three Mile Island, all of those, the reasons and causes for those uh disasters have been dealt with in the new technology. Yeah. Which, you know, and hopefully there's no other thing that they've missed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sure. Right, Jez, I feel like I need to pick your brains. You've you've got away with it so far, but here we go. I've got my list. Okay, so what is your involvement with Nox Free and how long have you been working on the possibilities of nuclear?

SPEAKER_00

So we've been working with Derek and the team for over three years now. Um, I joined LR about three years ago, um, specifically to uh lead the development of the nuclear rules, the requirements you have for LR.

SPEAKER_03

You joined specifically just.

SPEAKER_00

So um so and we've been working, or I've been working with um sort of Derek and the team since I joined. Um LR had been involved prior to that. Um, and it really is about sort of understanding the requirements um of the industry of the specific um project and uh and what we need to deliver, both um from a classification perspective, but also from a uh a statutory maritime and a nuclear regulatory um sort of vantage point as well, because that uh regulation just isn't there. You know, if civil nuclear um is largely based around gigawatt scale um nuclear power stations, um, which are controlled by national governments in countries. So all the rules and regulations have been designed and built up around nuclear being a very um strategic sovereign um sort of requirement, uh, and everything is based around that. So when we talk about transportable nuclear, especially in internationally, um, there just isn't any uh uh sort of rules and regulations to govern that, either in the nuclear or the maritime space. I mean, I we will probably come on to the SOLAS chapter eight and um code of safety for nuclear merchant ships, but um today there there really isn't anything. So it's about understanding engaging with you know the international bodies, the regulatory bodies to see what uh and you know work with them, tell them what industry needs.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because you're right, because actually every country has their own rules and regulations for what they use and whatever else. But then when you've got this asset floating around potentially the world going from country to country, that actually makes it even more challenging.

SPEAKER_00

So I is it there's a there's an interesting distinction between um the UN bodies of the IMO and the IAEA uh in maritime and nuclear specifically, whereas the IMO operates um almost like well, it is a regulatory body, they make um statutory requirements which are then passed down to flag states to incorporate international law. The IAEA doesn't do that as a as a as a body. What what it does is provides guidance on safety and security, but only has a mandate to control um safeguarding of nuclear materials, right? So looking after uh the accountancy and and making sure that none of the material is um you know been able to sort of be siphoned off for you know nefarious purposes. Yeah, um, it is their is their sort of mandate, but the security and and and safety is the responsibility of national nuclear regulators and therefore has evolved very differently to what sort of statutory maritime and the IMO have done. Yeah. Um so it's about and and we've seen already in the nuclear industry efforts to sort of harmonize some of this regulatory work from that like the US and the NRC, the UK's ONR, um the Canadian um CNSC. And so, but that it's it's very difficult. Yeah, it's taken a long time and they're made.

SPEAKER_01

You know, national bodies don't want to accept somebody else's say so that something's safe because of the responsibility and you know, so but Jiz, that and I think that is probably I think one of the biggest hesitancies of maritime at the moment is and shipping, because it's not just yachting looking at this. You know, if you've got a container ship that suddenly can go flat out from A to B rather than fuel economy, they're gonna make more money quicker. The issue always is is international voyages, isn't it? Yeah, and there is a concern, or I believe there's a concern, correct me if I'm wrong, that actually that's probably the biggest challenge at the moment is the technology we've seen is coming and it's coming rapidly. It's how you go from A to B. And in shipping, yes, you know port A, you know port B, so that's easier. Yachting changes on the morning because they want to go left instead of right, but it's that international voyage part that is a concern, or is it do you think that's changing?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of work to be done. Um the requirements for freedom of international movement, I think, will be uh a bit of a way off. You know, liability uh conventions will be required. Um, there was a Brussels convention in 1968 that was never fully ratified for nuclear-powered ships. Um, you would need something like that, either revised or or something new. Um, but certainly what we can work on to begin with is bilateral agreements between two flag states, so like the UK and the US, you would have seen when President Trump was over to announce the UK-US nuclear corridor. That is a way of sort of getting around that requirement in the short term. Uh, and they then those can grow. Um, you know, other countries can join. And and I think once we demonstrate the technology, which is, I guess, arguably what we're discussing really, um, then it will be easier for other countries to then sort of join that um those those agreements. And you either organically grow um something like the Brussels Convention, or you know, you have to have uh a UN body sort of drive the requirement and and get people to sign up to it. But we know that you know getting many international countries to agree on things is somewhat difficult. Um, so I suspect it will probably be something that that grows organically. And and if I'm honest, I don't know the point about shipping and nuclear power, um, I believe um can fundamentally change the very nature of commercial trade. Um, and once countries recognise this and and large international organizations uh start taking advantage of it, then countries will have to come on board, otherwise they're gonna be behind. You'll be left behind. You'll have to just accept the conventional ships and slower transit speeds, more cost. So I think it will quickly take off.

SPEAKER_02

This is where we need the adoption, don't we? All the large shipping companies, containerized companies going cruising along the coast and pulling into all the ports. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, let's I mean let's put like nuclear power in in yachting is never gonna reach the scales of sort of um uh deployment that that that I think we would the the industry would need to see to make it commercially viable. But what it is, as I think we've mentioned earlier, is is that sort of Formula One is the sort of um you know the cutting edge of of industry where you can utilize that to demonstrate to industry, to the public, to to the international bodies that it is a safe way of of operating and powering um ships and therefore support because we need to have real projects. The regulators are like, you know, nobody's talking to us, nobody's coming to the nuclear regulators saying, you know, we've got this project. So the nuclear regulators are like, we're hearing a lot of talk about maritime, but nobody's actually said anything to us, so we need to have actual projects so we can present to nuclear regulators and actually start getting into the detail and working out what needs to be done. Yeah, because everything is over.

SPEAKER_03

You said at the start it takes one person to do it, and then because actually everything we're talking about is so positive, you know, there's a lot of argument for the fours, and obviously we we'll talk a little bit more about the the um cons. But there's there's a lot of positivity that could come out of it, like we're talking about for businesses, countries as well, that once the technology becomes more regularly used. I mean, we're talking about yachts specifically today, but in a grander scale, I mean, there's we're talking to island nations already.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. You know, you've got a country, and I won't name it, but when they're spending 8% of their GDP on diesel to run the generators on a small island, and then they're held to ransom because of what's going on. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, that what's their costs are going up, these small island nations they want some kind of independence.

SPEAKER_03

But but actually the what's going on at the moment in the Middle East is is quite a harsh reminder to us everywhere that actually we're all a bit sort of held to ransom for for for things all you know to get product from certain parts of the world. It's affecting the UK. Obviously, there's worse things going on, but we're all affected by what's happening. Um, so to have alternatives that are regulated, accepted, and yeah, I mean it just a good backup plan, or or eventually maybe even overtakes it, that we're not so reliant on certain parts of the world that if there's trouble there, our country then is you know, sort of shut down economically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the CEO of Retourable Energy, when he started this, his whole vision was to make an affordable nuclear plant that basically, you know, anyone with a bit of bit of a million or so could could afford, or a town could afford, or a country could afford, or an island could afford. Yeah. And if you can walk into an island nation and say, hey, we'll cut your you know from eight percent GDP down to three to four percent of GDP, then all of a sudden that gives them more money. It gives them independence.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It makes them a stronger nation to stand on their own.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, and and it's it's like safer against world disasters.

SPEAKER_03

Just on uh obviously, we're talking, I mean, I agree with everything you say, but just nipping back to the yachting part. So cost wise is a sort of positive sales point. So I can't even imagine what a module would cost um to put on a yacht. Well, we will in a second, but what I'm interested in is so, say, for instance, you could say to an owner, we're gonna build this hundred meter boat and we're gonna put this module on, but it's gonna be X amount of money, and you can go over that in a second. Is there quite a good argument that the return on that investment would be quite obvious quite quickly because you're not potentially having all the other systems and you're not having fuel and things? Because obviously the cost of fuel at the moment is through the roof. And most people who own the boats that we all work with are probably not that affected. Um, but if you could say to them, well, it's X amount, but in five years, you'll have got that back anyway. I mean, what what is the reality of that?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we did a rough calculation, and we think that um you pay off the unit in three to four years.

SPEAKER_03

Really?

SPEAKER_02

That's oh gosh, that's it's a single digit million, right? So it's not it's not 20 million or 10 million, it's it's around nine, nine and a half million at the moment and in time.

SPEAKER_03

So that's not potentially what you're saving on all the other systems.

SPEAKER_02

No, so you're saving on the shipyard saving on not having to build the fuel tanks, all that costs money. You're not having to install exhaust systems, scrubbers, um, fuel separators, extra steel for ducts going up through the boat, yeah, um, and all that. Plus, you know, generally speaking, you know, the amount of fuel that the the engines use, a rough every 600 hours you change the filters, do your servicing, everything else, you're you're looking at a three to four year payoff.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

So especially for a boat that's moving a lot. If you're just gonna sit in the marine and do nothing, you know, then then that becomes a different calculation. And and and in actual fact, we did this calculation before the war in Iran. So with the cost of fuel where it is now, well, your payoff is even shorter, if it especially if it stays up there. So we're not talking about a big figure. It's you know, when you look at the scheme of the boat, it's you know, uh you do a deal with your shipyard and you say, Hey, I want to buy nuclear instead of diesel engine. And look at the cost of a diesel engine.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's not cheap, you know, there are hundreds of thousands, plus all the infrastructure that goes with it. It's yeah, it becomes a big number. Um, and the and more importantly, obviously, it's green, i.e., we're not putting meltish gas into the air and we're not polluting the planet.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so for potential owners looking to build boats in the future, not only do you have that uh positive sales point of actually you can recoup your money, but actually to be sustainable in a genuine way. And that word gets used so much in our industry, and yeah, it's an interesting term, but um, actually to be able to say that you know you can run the boat in a green way is it's unusual.

SPEAKER_02

So and not plan stops for refueling, and as Ben said, you can cruise across the Atlantic and if the weather's nice, well, let's just do 18, 19 knots today, you know, because it we can and let's get there quicker.

SPEAKER_03

Let's and also I guess if you've got an owner that's quite adventurous, I mean ultimately as long as regulations are clear to go in certain countries and things, you can really well nuclear is clear to go already to Antarctic and Arctic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

Because that's what they're using. Yeah, that's where all the icebreakers are.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um and they've been going there forever. So um, you know, there is that option. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then you'll have to another interesting sort of sales point. I'm just thinking sort of how, you know, when you come to talk to owners in the future, all these facts and sort of points that I obviously don't wouldn't think of, but actually all the positives of it really are realistic and are probably going to be very important to future owners.

SPEAKER_02

For example, the fjords um in Norway are are banning um exhaust fossil fuels to some of the fjords. Well, a c a cruise ship could just chuck a couple of containers on the roof for the week. Yeah. You know, or put these in instead. And those special zones will become bigger. There'll be more and more of them, yeah, I think, in the world as time goes on, because we're gonna have to try and cut down all the you mean special zones where they're gonna ban fuel.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, agreed. I think there's already places things.

SPEAKER_02

And and not only that, the it doesn't make any noise.

SPEAKER_03

Uh so there's no noise pollution either.

SPEAKER_02

So your turbines make a bit of noise, but your actual power generation, your power unit, the core, doesn't make any noise.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's quiet. So there's there's a lot of benefits. And and then you come to, you know, the zoo, you want to go, well, what about end of life? Where are you dumping all this? Well, on our unit, 65% of it is calculated to be reused. So you get that and you mix it in with some other um new 5% enriched uranium and you put it into the next unit. And then the rest is held aside for um smaller units that they're planning to build, and then they think at the moment there might be 5% of it that they'll have to store just for future technology. And how big is that 5%? It's about the size of a cup.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's a mug size.

SPEAKER_03

Interesting. So, you know, that's something actually I was thinking of earlier because again, from the general public's point of view, what happens when it's finished?

SPEAKER_02

And we're calculating the the actual core, which is like a heat exchanger, this is 500 high in in diameter. Um, it's about this size in diameter, and that they they calculate that will be able to be reused five times before they have to take it apart and and then probably repurpose it so it's metal. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But the maintenance of it again is is not comparable to an engine. No. No. Jez, I'm going back to you. Sorry. What, in your opinion, is the biggest barrier right now? Because we've talked a bit about regulation. Is it regulation? Is it the technology, or is it perception from boat builders, owners, or general public, or the powers that say yes or no to these things?

SPEAKER_00

It's an interesting question. It's one that I'm asked all the time. Um I dare say it depends on on how you want to look at it as to as to potentially the answer. I I personally think that um industry and public perception is probably the biggest challenge that we have, uh, the biggest barrier. Um and it's where we need to obviously spend a lot of time and effort in um clearly, you know, articulating what's being done, um, having that transparency about the process and re-educating or educating at an earlier age um, you know, um the public because there's a lot of misconceptions and a lot of you know fake news and and and uh misinformation around nuclear and the uh potential effects and and what it can and can't do and and so on. Um so that is I think is probably the biggest challenge. There don't get me wrong, there is a lot of work to be done in the field of regulation and um international regulations and and conventions as we discussed earlier, but but that's a process, and and and there's a lot of work to be done on the technologies, um, and again, but that's an engineering process. It's never been about can we put nuclear onto a yacht or into a ship? We've been doing that, as Ben said, since the um 50s, 60s, uh and every decade since, um in largely in defence capacities. Um it's never been about can we do it. The the question is can we get these new technologies to a place they need to be at to operate safely and compliantly in the way that people are suggesting they can? Uh and most importantly, can it be done economically? Because if we can't find a way of um producing the technology, licensing the technology, operating the technology at the right cost, then it doesn't matter how good it is, how green it is, nobody will use it. They'll just use a cheaper alternative. So I mean, so perception, industry and the public is I think really important. But also we need to be define a collective pathway that enables us to make this economically viable. Because if that can't be done, then nothing else really matters.

SPEAKER_03

I suppose also if six are one, half a dozen are the other, isn't it? Because, like you say, the technology is coming fast, like we said earlier. Already there is technology that that exists that allows nuclear to be on vessels, because like you said, it's been there for decades. You can't get the regulation without having the products and working out how they're gonna work, and you can't change public perception until you can prove really in real life that it's gonna work and it's safe. So I guess it's it's just gotta come, hasn't it? You've got to get the right technology, get a person to believe in it and put it on their boat, work with Lloyd's registry and all the flag states and the builders and all pulling in the same direction to then launch it and prove that it is the right sort of thing to push forward with.

SPEAKER_00

There's definitely a lot that can be done now. The technology uh and the qualification of the technologies is um, from my position, something that that's gonna happen independently, that needs to happen independently. Um deployable. Um, Bobby's out there with his team demonstrating that you know, in critical testing it it responds and reacts the way that they've said this, you know, the modeling says that it should. Um, they're gonna demonstrate that it, you know, it shuts down, that it's passively safe. It's you know um, and that should allow us to get to a place where that um the Unity battery can be like part licensed, if you will, because ultimately we need to get to a place where nuclear uh nuclear power units are like a commodity, no different to gas turbines. Um that these developers, vendors can you know, uh design, build, uh manufacture, and then sell these products. And that um, you know, yacht builders, yacht designers can say, look, this is the design of the yacht we want, this is the power that we that we want it to have, this is a space that we've designed for the which product is available for us, that you know, that's what we want. Uh, and then it's a case of integrating that product into the application. Um, and that's the solution that that we've developed at Lloyd's Register is how do we integrate the nuclear into the maritime environment? Um, so if we can get the nuclear product, which will which will have to happen, because if that doesn't happen, then this whole conversation is mute to begin with. So the assumption is that that does happen.

SPEAKER_03

It's coming.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that happens. The question then is how do we bring the worlds of nuclear and maritime together in a way that allows us to achieve the kind of assurance and regulation that we need? Um, one, to be able to get a nuclear license to operate and meet statutory and class requirements, but also to show to the public and to uh insurers um and port authorities and port states that it's safe. Um and there's a you know the whole life cycle approach, Derek mentioned um decommissioning and disposal. You won't be able to get a license unless you've got a clear financed path for decommissioning and disposal. Um, so you know the whole life cycle approach has been taken into consideration in the framework that we've developed. Um there's a lot of work to do. We know that we need to talk into the national nuclear regulators because we need them to license in a very different way to the way that they're currently licensing. Um, everything is um site license based at the minute. Um, so you lot you identify a site, you you demonstrate the site is is um safe and sufficient to have a nuclear reactor on, then you then you license the whole facility uh installation. Whereas we want to take a nuclear power unit as a part license and then integrate and then license that application. So it's a bit of a uh a philosophy change for the nuclear industry, yeah, but also for the maritime industry, because you're going to have to have a safety case for these applications. The licensee, I should clarify the licensee will need a safety case to get the license to operate. The question is who the licensee is going to be. Um it could be the yacht owner, yeah, it could be the um it could be deployable energy. You know, they they might want to be the licensee and they might want to rent the Unity battery to the end user and say, look, you know, pay this much per year over the life cycle, and then we will take it away. Yeah, you don't have any of that responsibility to deal with any of that. We'll just take it away, we'll refurb and manage all of that stuff, uh, and then we'll just give you another one. You know, it's that sort of battery mentality that people talk about. But these are all under discussion. We need to understand what these models look like, what the const you know the considerations are, how we um designate a sort of uh the sort of responsibility and accountability for certain actions and and um safeguards within that. Um it's not that dissimilar to how um UK defence um submarine application works. It just again needs to be proportional and affordable for it to work long enough.

SPEAKER_03

Because surely when nuclear was put on commercial vessels in military, you would have had not you obviously because you weren't alive then, but whoever first put something onto a boat would have had to go through all of this to build guidelines and rules and regulations. So it's been done before, but just for a different type of vessel.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but I think it so defence uh and i is a very different way of approaching it. The defence application is very analogous to the civil licensing requirements. So in the UK they have um the same. So in civil, you have the licensing conditions, in defence you have authorizing conditions, and they're a mirror of each other, and then you have a a few additional ones to compensate for the transportable nature of submarines, but there's a lot of assurance and a lot of um certification, verification, a lot of processes, um, checks and balances, as you would expect there to be. Yeah, but bearing in mind this is a highly enriched pressurized water reactor, so um the consequences are different to what we're talking about. Therefore, we believe the regulatory requirements should be proportional to the to the risk. You know, when um the vendors demonstrate the safety and the the nature of the technology, then that will define the kind of um safety case you need to develop to provide the levels of assurance. We expect that to be a lot smaller than what the defense application is. And depending on how the industry stands up as well around it, depends whether we need to have specialized yards or or specialized ports to accommodate this, or whether we can just provide a you know a far lower level of uh of regulatory assurance to to commercial ports to be able to accept nuclear-powered um assets in. Because we already transit and and sail high-level nuclear waste uh on on the on ships already. So um I don't think it's a a a big step. Again, there's a lot of work to be done, and we need to understand what the the risks are, and that can only be informed by the output from the vendors and the testing and and um and what their requirements are. But we need to engage with the regulators now, with the industry bodies now, um, to start that that process, start the conversations about how can we approach this, what do we need to do, what what what what level is considered safe, you know, where do we need to get to? Because again, nuclear and maritime operate on a completely different philosophy, whereas you know the maritime industry uh traditionally has um prescriptive rules. So we say this is this is a level you must achieve, and then everybody achieves it. Whereas nuclear works on um you know the alarp principle of as low as reasonably practicable. So if you can make it safer, then you should make it safer, is the expectation. Um, where that line is drawn is a little bit um grey, which is what we've seen in the in the recent um Fingleton reports of the UK government, which says that they've been overly conservative in their application of the alarp principle, um, yeah, because it's very easy to like just like err on the side of caution. Um but I think if we're going to overcome global challenges like um global warming and climate change, and um, you know, states and and flag states want to have energy independence, energy security from you know, fuel volatility that we see for things like um, you know, the Middle East conflict or dare I say it, even potentially hydrogen and ammonia production, because there are going to be industries that are prepared to pay more than the maritime industry are for those fuels. So it's not always gonna be assert that if you have an ammonia or a hydrogen-powered vessel that the fuel's gonna be as available as people might think it is, because it's not easy to produce, it's gonna be expensive to produce as well. Um, but if you've got a nuclear-power unit on your asset, then you've got that assurance that for that operating cycle, you know how long you've got fuel for, how much it's gonna cost, and it and it provides that sort of um stability and assurance that I think owners want moving forward.

SPEAKER_03

And a if they're investing a lot of money into building a boat with that technology, they're gonna want that, aren't they? I hope you've enjoyed the first part of this podcast. Join us for part two, which will be released soon.