On The Bridge with NOxFree, Nuclear Propulsion Panel Part 2

Welcome to part two of this On The Bridge special!

In this episode, Alicia continues the discussion on nuclear propulsion with our expert panel, Derek Munro (NOxFree), Ben Geary (Döhle) & Jez Sims (Lloyd's Register).

"The crew will potentially never see the reactor."

For the second half of this episode, the panel shifts the conversation from theory to reality. We take a deep dive into the practical safety protocols, cutting-edge engineering, and public misconceptions involved in bringing zero-emission nuclear power to the maritime industry.

This is part two of our nuclear energy series. If you haven't listened to part one yet, make sure to go back and catch up first! Part 1 - https://youtu.be/k_rdEPdxaiw

This episode covers:
● How nuclear propulsion would work onboard a yacht
● Safety systems and reactor monitoring
● Radiation myths versus reality
● Crew training and operational requirements
● Refits, dry docks and maintenance considerations
● Why modern nuclear technology differs from historic reactors
● Regulatory frameworks and Lloyd's Register involvement
● Environmental benefits compared with conventional fuels
● The role of shipyards in future adoption

Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction
00:40 – How safe would nuclear yachts be?
04:17 – What happens if something goes wrong?
08:13 – Why has maritime been slow to adopt nuclear?
13:20 – Can nuclear ever become cost effective?
17:10 – When will we see nuclear-powered vessels?
19:47 – How are owners reacting to nuclear technology?
24:21 – Why are younger generations embracing nuclear?
30:06 – What is the biggest misconception about nuclear yachts?
38:12 – Could shipyards adopt nuclear before yachts?

If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review to help more people find the conversation.

Find out more about dsnm:
Website: https://www.dsnmltd.com/
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dsnmltd/

A special thank you to Kindful Creative for producing this episode.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to part two. This episode of On the Bridge, we are going to explore a much debated and potentially transformative idea in super yachts, nuclear propulsion. Not theory, but real discussions about whether nuclear could power the next generation of yachts and what that means for owners, builders, and the wider industry. I'm joined by Derek Munro from Knox Free, Ben Geary from Doula Yacht Management, and Jez Sims from Lloyd's Register. I hope you enjoy part two of this podcast. Okay, this is a question for all of you, really. Um I'm gonna be Joe Public. When people hear nuclear, safety is probably their first concern. How do you address that in practical terms? And what I mean by that is I think we mentioned it before we started recording that nuclear sort of is a bit of a sort of scary word to most normal people who aren't, you know, a fai with the subjects we're talking about. Um how how would it work having nuclear on a boat? Just how how we talked about earlier engineers, uh you know, who's looking after it? How is it stored?

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Well just give me a little rundown of So the the the intention at the moment is that the the nuclear unit will be put into a sealed off space on board the boat that you could because it doesn't need lots of air and everything like an engine does, you could just seal off a solid compartment, maybe have an inspection hatch that they opened once a year or every six months and popped in just to make sure the silver's still nice and shiny. That essentially they don't touch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Um engineers do not have to be specially trained. Most engineers now on a yacht are qualified enough that they can service and look after a turbine and the other side of it, the power generation side of it. So their qualification should cover all of that anyway. Um the crew will potentially never see it, you know, depending on whether they're there when it's loaded on and taken off. Um from a safeguarding point of view, the the lease holder is going to have to be able to prove that it's all all the material is being tracked. Right. So all every unit will be tracked when it leaves the factory until it comes back to the factory.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Um who does that? The manufacturer.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Yeah, but they'll be reporting to, I think it's the IAEA.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, so well, so so this is part of the thing. This is still a bit under discussion. So depending on who licenses the application, that nation state is responsible for that nuclear material. Right. And they're responsible to the IAEA. The IAEA will probably have um safeguarding tools on board, whether that's an electronic seal around the compartment or um cameras to just monitor um access. So they will should they should have like 24-7 monitoring of the application. But it will be the nation-state's responsibility to ensure that the uh for the non-proliferation of that nuclear material, um, which leads on to other questions, but we'll maybe come there later.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Yeah, so basically everything will be monitored and tracked, and and and as with any new technology on uh like this on a yacht, that room is gonna be so over-monitored with sensors and everything else because we need to make everyone feel safe.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Of course. I think that's interesting though, because again, going back to sort of a generic view, if you said to me yesterday we're gonna put nuclear on a yacht, I'd think of you know this great big thing in the middle of the boat that but actually it's not like you say, the crew are not gonna be involved in it in the sense that they're not gonna be touching it, they're not gonna be near it.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

It's not like Star Wars. No, or Star Trek, sorry. Come on, Scotty, pull it no, that does not happen. Now it's on a computer, that's it, you monitor the levels.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Um, it it the system is very, very different. It's all about flows and and heat transfer from the flow.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

So and you said earlier about the safety cutoffs that for it to be able to be put onto a boat, yeah, it has to prove that the technology is capable of shutting off at certain temperatures. So all the normal disasters that come into people's minds with the word nuclear, the technology has fail safes in place to ensure that and and the the amount is obviously and the technology is such that it never gets to that pressure, like we know about, you know, high pressure pipelines and all sorts of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

So um, and the biggest issue with these is cooling, right? So on our units, we we would recommend, and the ones we've designed so far as concepts for people, is we double up on the cooling. So if the cooling flow looks like that's what the seawater intake starts to get clogged up or something, there is another option. Right. There's another seed water intake. There's another sea chest, there's another area for fo to flow to get the cooling in place. Yeah. Um, so that you know, and then you can obviously service one while you keep it going. But if the cooling drops off, it will shut down to zero. Yeah. Now, what that means in practical terms right now is that if it goes to zero, the unit is is finished. Right. And we have to take it off. Okay. Right. But what we're doing we've um they've requested at the INL for during the testing uh phase in the next six months or so, is because it's a small one megawatt unit, can we restart it on the boat? Because the it that's the getting it going and and stopping it are kind of like the two most dangerous parts. Yeah. If I'm correct, of any nuclear reactor. So if you can start this small unit on the boat, which is it's awesome for us as a yachting industry or as for maritime in general, you're going to dry dock, you can shut it down, stop it. Otherwise, you've got to create a different inlet area for cooling water. Yeah. Stuff like they do on subs. You know, they have this big intake up high so that before you dry out, you're already pumping lots of water in to cool off the system. If we can shut it down and restart it on board, we can shut down for refit for dry dock phases. We can shut down for, you know, potentially time alongside if you want it to go onto the local electricity, which obviously will be supplied by one of our units on land somewhere, so it won't matter so much. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff we're still developing to try and make it a lot more user-friendly in the industry. So yeah, and and everything, obviously at that stage, everything's monitored. Of course. The engineer won't be doing that. We'll be bringing in a specialist to shut it down and ramp it up. There'll be someone specially trained, someone who's probably ex-Royal Navy or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

But you're thinking about every eventuality because actually I was going to ask about yard time.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Um, but you've answered that by saying currently you're working to try and enable it to be able to be shut off but restarted. Yeah. Um, because yeah, I mean, boats come out the yard and then a couple of years later they're refitted or they're having warranty work done or something. So it needs to also, I guess, be convenient.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Yeah, and that's the thing. Or maybe what you'll do is you'll have an inlet up inlet up high so that you can if you're only in the yard for two weeks or you know, a month or something, you'll just cool it down. Yeah. Because that's easy and just drop the load right down to the lowest percentage. And then because the rebooting it and stopping it is so inconvenient. But if you're going in for a one-year or a two-year full interior strip out and everything, that would be great to be able to shut it down to zero and let it just sit there waiting and then and boot it back up again. Yeah. Um, so we are considering all those options at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

It's very exciting. Um, Jazz, I'm back to you again. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

That's okay. That's what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Jazz said at the start that you wanted to keep quiet, and now I'm throwing all these questions at you. So, as an ex-nuclear submariner, are you surprised how long it's taken for nuclear to come into the conversation of wider maritime and yachting industry?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, so I think um, you know, when you understand the technology, the capabilities, uh, the opportunities it presents, uh, it it is a question as to why um it's not made an appearance sooner. And I think there's a very good answer for that, you know. Um, internationally, this was tried in the 60s. We had the NS Savannah, the Otto Han. So there were different applications of nuclear-powered commercial vessels in the 60s. But they were, as we discussed earlier, they're using pressurized water reactors. It was all a bit new at the time. You know, nobody most countries didn't have uh nuclear nuclear power. There's only a handful of countries. So the the assurances, the work to get port access um globally was very difficult for countries like the US. They had to provide you know hundreds of pages of documentary evidence and and uh assurances and insurance to uh to have the NS Savannah go um global, which it did, um, but meant that you know economically it was not particularly viable. Um the um SOLAS um A491, the nuclear code of safety for merchant ships, was written in the late 70s, incorporated in 1981. It's a non-mandatory document, but again, is pressurized water reactor specific and for ships that have direct drive propulsion, which none of what we're looking for today.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Um it's a sort of different technology back then.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I guess what what Derek was saying is that you know we're looking to do things very differently. It's gonna be almost certainly it's gonna be a nuclear electric hybrid future. Um, but then we looked at um a nuclear again in the 80s and then again in the early 2000s, uh, around 2010. LR were working on nuclear rules for for merchant ships as it was gaining um you know traction as a viable option, but but not for the reasons that we're looking at it today, which which I think largely originally were for decarbonisation, but now as decarbonisation and energy security and um independence. Um but obviously Fukushima happened around you know 2011 that sort of put paid to that as public uh sort of uh confidence you know dropped significantly. So it's only really in light of of decarbonisation and and energy security and independence that it's come back onto the um the agenda. And I think now is the first time that we've had that kind of national and international level sort of drive for um these different alternate fuels that have given us the mechanisms to make the regulatory changes that we need to change to enable nuclear to be economically viable in in maritime, whereas previously it was it was by and large a commercial driver. Um, and that doesn't really um you know particularly resonate with in with governments to change regulatory requirements because such and such company wants to make more money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

So I guess also as years go on and technology gets better, and the technology we're talking about now is very different to the technology that would have been used even in 2010, sort of shelving it because of public perception, because of a an awful tragedy, but also things move on, don't they? And what we're talking about today is completely different safety-wise. Um, so I guess it it makes sense to sort of pick it back up and think actually this is a different tool that we're talking about, and what the mistakes have been made in the past aren't necessarily relevant to to even you know what concerns we'd have over this technology.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So I yeah, say safer is is uh sort of um so so I think specifically from a UK perspective, you know, the O and R have never licensed an unsafe application um for clarity. So that so all nuclear technology is safe at the point of licensing within the UK and you know other countries as well. Obviously, there's lessons to be learned, um, which we've learned from Free Mile Island, um, Fukushima, um Shinnoble's a bit of an outlier for a number of different reasons. Um, but I think what the the the newer technologies, the Gem4 technologies that we talk about, that the the way that they're um positioned in terms of the advantages we've got in design and and engineering uh means that we can make them safer because we don't need to have active safety systems, so we don't need to have a pump to provide the cooling. They've been designed in such a way that they take um passive um sort of convectional cooling that they are low pressure reactors rather than high pressure reactors, therefore we don't need to have an off-site emergency response organization because there's no um conceivable way for that sort of contamination to spread into a wide area.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Yeah, 100%. They were all considered definitely what's part of the next as Jiz said, Gen 4 is is all about safety and learning and what's happened in the past.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

So but it's not just about safety and learning, so it's also about the sort of economics that they are to be designed economically in a way that makes them more you know viable, that they are more sustainable because they have a higher burn-up rate of the fuel, such as we leave less waste um to future generations to deal with.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Uh, yeah, but it is I mean, you've got, you know, as you said, you've already got pre-ordered two and a half thousand units, and they are wanting to mass produce four land. And it's again goes back to that driver. There are other drivers in it that then appeals to the maritime world to jump on that wagon.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Because a lot of, you know, they've got to put this in suburbia, it's going to be where your, you know, your next test goes, is it's going to be powered by a nuclear unit. Or hospitals and all that stuff. Yeah, all that's got to be safer. It's got to be safer land. And it's so there's this, there's a kind of unified drive from all angles to really think about the technology before it's applied. Um, and yeah, lessons learned.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

But cost-wise, also, like you say, I mean, when you even think about 10, 15, 20 years ago, the cost to produce well, A, the technology wouldn't have existed 20 years ago anyway, to produce your unit. But also, like you said, previously, when not I'm not even gonna say similar, but other products have been built, manufactured, designed, the cost would have been so out of reach for most councils, governments, industries, companies, individuals, whereas now it's becoming I'm not gonna say economic, because I'm sure you know they're still expensive.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

But I think the plan is that it will be economic and it will for our units anyway.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

So it's the energy that you can get back. Like we're saying, if we're going into towns, villages, hospitals, when you think about how quickly you get the money back, then actually I suppose it is economical, especially with fuel shortages and it has to be right, because if it's not, then it will be.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

But it has to be in its own right. We can't have subsidies or bursaries, you know. We we've seen this with with other um you know, sort of um alternative um fuels where where governments have put sort of initiatives and subsidies in place to to you know drive uptake. But what that actually means is if those bursaries and subsidies are taken away, then actually it's not. Therefore, um you know, that either puts an onus on the government to continue to you know um support that or industry will just walk away from it at a point later on in the future. And that's not what we want. We want to get to a point, arguably, you know, holistically, this is about energy security, independence, and decarbonisation. Sure. So if we can't get there through you know it being viable in its own right, but the bigger the uptake, the cheaper it will become.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Of course, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

I mean they have a deployable energy, they have right now a plant that can produce a gigawatt in a year, right? And that's that's thousands of units. Right next door, they have land to build another gigawatt factory. So as with anything, uh TV screens when they came out were hundreds of thousands of pounds, now they're 200, 300 pounds. Yeah, this in time will become a lot cheaper as the production goes on and on. The initial people, the uptake initially is going to cost more, but they're you know, the they're the people you need. You need people to spend that money up front. You need to to get it all going. And and I I would see this dropping in price, uh, and they might not like me saying it, but not in the long term, it'll be in the next five to ten years. You'll see the price drops and the price drops and and more and more people. And I'd love to say to the guys, well, instead of just building it where you're building it now, why aren't we setting this up in Europe and the UK?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

And where are they based?

SPEAKER_04 16:23

In the US, yes, in Texas. So, you know, and and that's great. I mean, Trump has helped this industry massively in America. He has challenged people to get micro units up and running for July the 4th celebrations. And he is told, as far as I know, that anyone who's building an AI center or anything like that, that's going to be a drain on power, they have to provide their own power as part of that development. So that's gonna massively help us and others.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah, and I mean the the want for power is only going up, isn't it? So okay, so this is a question a bit for all of you. So we've talked a lot about the pros, cons, and the actual product. What is the reality of seeing nuclear power on a yacht in the next five years? Well, we have just as a sort of timeline.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

We have two vessels already that will have this on by 2029. 2029. Assuming oil production goes ahead. They're not yachts, but they're vessels. Um, and there are three other vessels that are humanitarian vessels that will also have this as part of their power system, and that's been posted on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, so it it's these units, the ones that we're promoting, are going to be on board at sea by 2029, 2030.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

So in the next four years, four or five years.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

So there is no reason why that can't be put on a yacht.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Because actually apart from public perception, and apart from your we might be restricted to what ports you can go to at the moment. We're we definitely have, you know, a challenging three years, four years of educating the public. Um, and how we do that is something we need to seriously look at as a group, and that's why um AJ Anderson has a couple of um potential clients that we're working with him. Yes, but noino we're all collaborating together to try and spread the word and to start educating people, and we'll put together some plans uh with Lloyd's and a few others about how we, you know, maybe increase that and start doing some stuff online, social media.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Well, I mean, you have to really now, don't you? Because if you do, if you have an owner who wants to build a big boat, we're 2026 now, you're looking at having those discussions now because a big boat takes at least three or four years, maybe even longer sometimes to build. So actually, if we're thinking about releasing a a boat and within the next five years, we this is the time to be making those decisions, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 18:52

So and we looked at we looked to right at the beginning, we looked at putting um generators in and creating spaces, dedicated spaces where our unity module or where a nuclear unit would go.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Put one in afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

But the problem with that is you still have fuel tanks and you still have large vent ducts. Sure, sure. And you still have and so would you then put the you the nuclear units in and leave all of that in place? Yeah, it's a waste of space. A waste of time. So it was one of the reasons we were delayed. And held up. And now we're at the stage where you can actually design a boat expressly for this. Yeah. Um, and you know, and in like you said, four, four, five years' time, you'll be it'll be on boats.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah. Thank you for listening to this episode so far. We have some really great guests coming up on this series, and we wouldn't want you to miss any of those future episodes. So please don't forget to click the subscribe button and enjoy the rest of this episode. Okay, so going back to what we were saying about public perception educating, Ben, let's go to you. So, what a man on a mission, what conversations are you having now from a management point of view and build point of view with owners?

SPEAKER_03 20:04

So, again, you know, we've got a number of owners that are interested in it. They're talking about like Derek said, you kind of being ready for it. Um, and I suppose the education bizarrely, it's not the younger generation that you really need to educate. So if you go into schools and you go into even universities and talk to them about it, they're like, Yeah, but why aren't you doing it? Yeah, it's the green technology, it's environmentally friendly, it means that we can get product quicker. Why aren't you doing it? And then you come to our generation or older who hid under tables, or that's how they were taught when they were at school because if something goes off. So it's actually an education of our generation that happens. Yeah, and there's loads of things from a management side, you know, people are like, Well, how are you gonna find qualified people? Well, as Derek said, it's a sealed unit, so your your crew qualifications would generally stay as they are, but also that's we've changed uh education and we've re- that were taught people or done courses to like liquid hydrogen was a prime example where there was no vessels that had done international voyages within liquid hydrogen, right? And so they were like, right, you need to educate everyone, the crew need to be qualified. Oh my god, how's that gonna happen? Actually, you get the experts to sit around a table, you find flag, we sat down with them and we produced a course. The course was different, so everyone on board had to have Bebe trained, so it's not just the engineers anymore, and a lot of that was awareness. So I imagine something similar will happen that you will have an awareness program that's run by the management company on the crew training that explains what is on board. You know, for liquid hydrogen, it was explaining to people how it works. So everyone from the deck end up to the captain had to go on do a certain level of courses, but that course was created. It was uh put into place, and as um Jez said, you know, IMO and others react when reality hits. So that coarse foundation is now being used in IMO to help create the foundations of liquid hydrogen training for Marathon because it was a necessity that needed to happen. So all of this is just about you know educating, talking to people, and you know, us also managing the expectation of owners. The thing is, owners you know, are human beings, and actually a lot of them, their children are or are young enough to be children, that they want to drive the newer technology. And as you saw with the liquid hydrogen boat, and as you will see with a nuclear boat, someone will go, Well, we need to show that the concept is safe. Derek had the owner, you know, it's and it's then bringing everything along on the journey. So, you know, there are if we need to have nuclear experts on board, there are an awful lot of ex-Royal Navy nuclear engineers and others. Again, you just bring them into the industry. You may have to yotify them slightly.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Sure, sure. But the concept.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

The safety element of the reality, and actually, the industry has matured, even in our you know, 25 years I've been doing it. The it's grown up. So the risk assessments, the a lot processes, the industry are used to doing that on the bigger yachts. And even some of the smaller yachts now, you know, the flags are more engaged, the class are more engaged in assisting in that process. So you just need the right people in the room to drive it forward.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah, which it sounds like already that is the case, because it sounds like all the elements you're covering, you've got the technology, you've got operational, and then you've got the safety and compliance element. And it sounds like everyone involved not only knows what they're talking about, but really wants to bring it to the industry because of all the positives we've talked about today. So, from an outside point of view, when you're talking about educating people, you're covering every race. And I know, Derek, you you did a tour of a lot of the major yards and and sat and answered probably a lot of the questions I've asked today to try and educate in that way. And like you say, the new generation of people coming into the industry probably is coming in with a much more positive mindset to wanting to bring sustainable alternatives in and probably can't understand why we haven't already.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Well, I had the classic uh at the design forum in Kittsbull with Boat International. Um, I gave a presentation on the nuclear side. And just before it, my daughter messaged me and said, uh, how's it going? You ready for this? And I said, Well, there's 460 people in a room, probably half of them don't agree with what we're talking about. So, you know, it could be an interesting 20 minutes or so. And she just wrote back and said, Um, and she's Gen Z, right? She wrote back and just said, Well, just tell them everything else is worse.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

She should be your head of marketing.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

She should be your head of marketing. I think actually, from an operational point of view, it is a safer technology than other fuel types that are being banded around that are reality that are coming online in the next year or so. It is a safer product to actually work with on board.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

You know, you haven't got the complexities of bunkering and trying to bunker liquid up.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I was gonna say, just sorry to interrupt you, but actually, when you think about it, because nuclear has this sort of slightly, I don't want to say negative, but I guess it is it's sort of uneducated, we don't really understand it, so everyone's a bit frightened of it. But think of all the terrible things that do happen on yachts safety-wise, anyway, to do with other materials that are being used. It's not, it's not as if we're sitting in an industry where a boat is a hundred percent proof of fires and explosion. I mean, I don't want to obviously tempt fate touch, but it doesn't happen to anyone, but you know what I mean? We're not we're not sitting in this ivory tower of yachting's completely safe and this isn't. So actually, when people are talking about it being unsafe, when you break it down, it's no more unsafe than things already utilized. And like you say, you'll be a lot safer.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

You have a diesel engine that you don't put in a box, you don't know it, but it can still have a runaway. And if it's a runaway, it explodes.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

If it's not maintained correctly, there are things that can go wrong. Whereas actually with this technology, once it's in and it's sealed and no one tampers with it, which is all the things you're talking about putting in place, the room for error is a lot less because there's no humans involved, which often let's face it, on a boat, can be a cause of some not great situations. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

I think you're converted.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

It's the way to go. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

One commission for any that's but it's and again, you're but also everyone that comes to the party is aware that that technology is on board. So when you look at the new fuels, everyone from the owner downwards is aware that that technology is on board. So the professionalism that then goes with that is part of it. So, you know, when these vessels come online and be are in in build, the industry will know about it, you know, as much as with a top secret world, it is reality will be people will know and crew will know.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

And, you know, again, it will be educating crew as they come on board, the professionalism that will need to be there. And so we've seen it with the newer technologies that actually that that kind of commercial shipping background and that you're almost a step up in the professionalism of people on board because all it is is just awareness of what you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

And it is it will be and is from an operational point of view. I'm sorry, it's um it is a safer product.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

That'll be the bit to get across, isn't it? Because you think about you start crewing up a year out from delivery, and you've got to interview the crew member and just say, Hey, by the way, do you want to join this boat? Yes, it looks like it's awesome. Uh, and we're nuclear powered. Oh. So hopefully we would have educated everyone by that stage. So we've got a bit to lose.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

The generation of crew coming through Gen Z. Yeah, you're not probably trying to convert a 65 or a you know, 55-year-old person. So actually, and I think it's like anything when it becomes more mainstream, when it's more commonly talked about, which is exactly why I wanted to have this conversation, it becomes less frightening and less, you know, sort of uh something that you people talk about but you don't really understand. I think once once it's on TikTok, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

So it's I mean, it is for educating the crew, it will be things like the shielding around the unit.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

So that as we were joking about before, that they don't turn bright yellow because they're sleeping next to the reactor. And now all of that is like you know, the amount of shielding that's in place around the unit, the protection that's there. You as crew, whether you know, if your interior, your deck, even you know, the officer, they're not going to know it exists.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Apart from that your vessel is quieter and it goes quicker, and they don't have to keep going to port to bunker fuel.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

So it's it's again, it'll just be an education programme and things like this, and doing more talks and getting people. We've been, we've both been in various conferences where there's a lot of negativity about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Which I get, you know, people are they're always apprehensive about new technology or seeing what reality is, and just says there's huge amounts of challenges still to kind of iron out, but everyone knows what they are. Yeah. So it's a it's it's a process rather than a challenge of getting to that end goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

And that negativity, if you consider it, is always with the older guys. It's it's not the younger one. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Well, that actually brings me on to my final question. This one is for all of you. Um, you can all give me your uh sort of idea. What is the biggest misconception about nuclear and yachting you'd like to change, Jez? I'm gonna start with you.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Um the biggest misconception of nuclear in yachting. Or for the same. Um right, so probably it it it's gonna go back to the the safety of nuclear. Um and safety is a bit of a an interesting play because I think it depends on how we're defining safety as to how what safe it is, because you won't have a technology to integrate into a sh into a yacht unless it's been proven to the nuclear regulator that it's safe to do so. And then in the uh integration and commissioning, we'll have to produce a safety case to show that it's safe for the integration. So um it will be demonstratably safe. Uh, I think the technology historically, um by design, it is the safest energy um production form if you take away the attributed deaths from Fukushima, which were nothing to do with nuclear, and more to do with the evacuation, yeah, the um disputed evacuation from the from the area. Um actually, nuclear per terawatt hour is safer than wind and solar, so it's the safest um or one of the safest energy production forms we have. Um, but even in the event of um an accident, you know, Fukushima, zero attributable deaths because of the radiation. So high levels of radiation causing you know acute radiation sickness, like we saw at Chernobyl, from people that were put on the ground incorrectly to you know to clean up um material that they should never have been there. Yeah, you're just not going to see that kind of accident and that kind of um sort of scenario where you could see that kind of immediate sort of um consequential um safety concerns around some of the other alternate fuels. We know about the toxicity of uh ammonia, for example. That I think the questions around nuclear tend to be more uh long-term, you know, sort of uh would an increased level of uh of radiation is it attributable to fatal cancers, and and and that's largely where the whole industry has had a bit of a problem for decades is it becomes very difficult over a longer period of time to demonstrate whether somebody that you know gets a fatal cancer is attributable to a slightly higher level of radiation dose over a longer period of time, or whether they would have got that anyway. Yeah, um, I think there's building evidence and has been for a long time now that actually the um the linear no threshold model that we have for radiation, which says that radiation at all levels is bad, which drives the regulatory response that we have, which is you must make it safe unless you can demonstrate that it's disproportionately for time, effort, and cost to do so. Um, that drives that response. Whereas if we can if we could show that low levels of radiation to a point are safe, which I think there's evidence to suggest that it is, then that changes the whole regulatory approach and the whole um way that we have to manage nuclear applications. Because you could say radiation to this point, we don't have to do anything. We don't have to put additional shield in, we don't have to put additional control measures in.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

But the product we're talking about to potentially go on to yachts, the shielding is built in anyway.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

So any crew working on the boat would not be um exposed to any more radiation than they would be if they worked on a boat or almost certainly you will you so I spent decades on nuclear submarines, and my um, you know, outside of specific maintenance activities, my dose rate would be lower than than most people in the general public. Yeah, I mean because of the shielding planes, planes, city scans.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

So I think that's so going back to the misconception then. So what you're saying is is that the the levels of radiation that we would all worry about when we hear the word nuclear would not actually be relevant if you worked on a vessel that was nuclear powered because you would be no more exposed to radiation than you would if you worked on a boat that was powered by diesel engines. Yeah.

unknown 34:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

Yeah, I heard a regulator made a comment, I won't say who it was, about the fact that uh an engineer would probably have less radiation exposure on one of these boats than a pilot on a six-hour flight.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Really?

SPEAKER_04 34:22

So, and we don't worry about the pilot. Well, we obviously always worry about the pilot, but you know, we uh but we're not concerned about his radiation exposure.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Of course, of course, yeah. So I think that's an important one though to to say because I I could imagine when people, for instance, we're talking about crew, they'd be like, Oh, I don't want to work on a boat that's nuclear because you know, I might want to have kids or I don't want to end up with cancer or whatever. Go back to these old uh exactly, but that's what I'm saying, these misconceptions which are are very outdated now, but but actually it is just general consensus. What about you, Ben?

SPEAKER_03 34:53

What would be your misconception you would like to I just think that it's it's an opportunity for yachting, especially to kind of lead the industry. So it's going to it's properly green energy. So rather than you know, all the greenwashing and all the other bits that kind of get banded around merit on not just yachting, it is an opportunity to have green energy in its opportunity to then lead that technology. Um, and I think you know there it's also just educating and changing the misconception of oh, well, even that egg cup of nuclear waste, you know, that's really bad. And if a thousand vessels have that, that's a lot of egg cups. Yes, but then there's also technology about that, even that bit of waste is already being utilized to look at powering space flight, it's looking at all kinds of stuff. So actually, the amount of waste is even less than the the the preconception is of that. It and it's an opportunity for yeah, for the industry to kind of show its maturity and help drive it forward. And I think that's that's a big thing that's changed, is that actually our industry is at a mature state where you know people are talking to the regulators much earlier, whereas before the rule would come and hit you in the face and then you'd figure out how to deal with it. More and more now you're seeing the industry proactively approach IMO and others to be like, look, we do this. Yeah, we think this is safe. Um, so yeah, and it's yeah, it's just more talks like this, more explaining the the possibilities, accepting the challenges, you know, accepting that, but also making sure that the criticism is countered with the positivities, because I do think the positivities outweigh the negatives.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yeah, no, I think and something you touched on then about green energy also. I mean, realistically, if we like you mentioned, Jez, if we do want to do something about the climate state that we're in, these conversations, it's a sort of a trade-off, isn't it? You know, there's risks with everything, there's risks with any fuel that you're going to use. But what are we trying to achieve? Are we, you know, with diesel, there's all sorts of downsides with that, with pollution and costs and transport and everything. So it's sort of finding the best solution for this situation we're in. And if safety is the main concern for most people, because you've we've talked about cost and how actually the cost is not perhaps what people might think. And as time goes on, it's definitely going to come down. What would be the next concern? It's safety. Well, we've talked about that. And actually, then the rest sound like pros.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

I'm sure there are other it's got to be health, doesn't it? They're all sitting here sucking in noxious gases from diesel engines and diesel yachts. And and if you can smell the exhaust from the generator, it means you're sucking in something. So you know, you won't have that.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

And also the um environmental impact on the oceans and and you know, which without oceans we don't have boats, do we? Right, Derek, finish up then. Tell me what your biggest mis or the we might have covered it already, but after doing your tour, for instance, what was the biggest misconception that you sort of happily Well, it was interesting doing the tour because obviously we we visited six shipyards, large shipyards in northern Europe.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Um and most of the crowd participants were engineers. Right. Um so at the end of it, they weren't just interested in what they we were going to provide them for yachting. They were interested in how we were gonna help them as a shipyard.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

And so the uptake there is okay, how do we get this in the shipyard first? Yeah. To to you know, cut down our operational costs and then look at how we can put it on boats. Yeah. Um and uh that's interesting then.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

So the shipyards then sort of flipped it slightly, and then they're looking at using the technology to energy secure their factories, maybe potentially save money in the future, employ more staff or have the security of having money to pay their staff. They're perhaps reducing costs of building boats, which are rising constantly, yeah. Before even putting it on a vessel. Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, there's huge pressure, isn't there, on shipyards to be more environmentally friendly in the manufacturing process. Yeah. And you know, the energy it takes to build these boats, as we all know, is massive. So, I mean, then most shipyards you go to in northern Europe now are, you know, they've got their solar panels, they've got the generation coverage, you know. They've got their heat generating systems to try and there's limitations, of course, though.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I mean, you can be you can try all those things, but actually, to produce a vessel that we're talking about in one of the big shipyards, of course, there's going to be cost environmentally as well as financially. So that's really interesting that they're thinking that way.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Well, it comes back to the whole thing of um, you know, do we think there'll be one power for yacht? The shipyards are the same.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

There won't be one power for them. You know, we'll we'll have a unity module sitting alongside solar panels and heat source and and everything else, and they'll use a lot the package to balance out. And they'll still be using local electricity, but hopefully not as much.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Interesting. Ah, well, thank you so much, guys. That was very interesting. I'm a convert. Um, and I think we covered a lot of points that um I had in my notes, which I know for sure many other people when the conversations come up over the dinner table or an event or something, people have mentioned to me. I try to write them down. So I appreciate everyone's time and then expertise. Thanks, Jess. All right, pleasure. Thanks, Ben. Thank you, Derek. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Yeah, so now people can call you instead of us.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Excellent. Thanks so much, guys.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

All right.