Jonathan Mills. From professional footballer to entrepreneur!

 “Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we’re joined by Jonathan Mills for a conversation about reinvention, leadership, and entrepreneurship. We discuss Jonathan’s transition from professional football player and franchise owner to entrepreneur, the mindset shifts that came with it, and the lessons he’s learned building success beyond the game. Thanks for tuning in — let’s get into it. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Okay so welcome to episode seven um of the midlife crisis podcast. Um today we are blessed with having a guest. Blessed. Oh I can't know what we've done. But yeah, we've got our first guest on, um so a bit of change of dynamic um to it just being me and Rasheed, um and that is Jonathan Mills is our guest.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Blessed no one's ever said to me. Blessed to have you in our company. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

So uh so it's gonna be a bit of a continuation from our last podcast, which is what we're trying to do is lead one podcast into the next a little bit over the next few episodes.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

What did we talk about on the last one?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Identity and um how things develop through midlife and changing identity, that's it, um, and leaving the old you behind for the new you and the different versions of yourself as we've got to this age in life.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Oh interesting. I was talking to somebody else about that actually the other day, and uh so it's it's very apt, very apt. So I'm looking forward to your questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah, I'm looking forward to your answers. You don't know what I'm gonna say. We're hoping for some juicy titbits here so we can get on social media. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Give us the books.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

I'll uh yeah, I'll I'll share with you what I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Cool. Um so yeah, to the to get started, just to give a bit of a recap on what we did last uh episode of me and Rashid, we sort of delved into um how our concept of success has evolved and changed and the path to get there essentially. Um so I guess our first question is um we like to let the guests know you had an early career as a football player. Yep, momentarily. Semi-professional football player. Um so explain how your your vision of success from when you were playing football to now has kind of changed briefly.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Okay, so uh I played for I played two years at Cambridge United, so technically I was professional, though I didn't uh I didn't play in the first team. Um and when I was sort of talking about identity, my my whole identity when I was sort of 10 to probably 30 was all related to football. So um that was all I ever wanted to be, and all I ever felt that I was I was gonna be. Um and I think it was probably not until I started getting into triathlon that I realized that actually, you know, football wasn't who I was, it was just a part of where I had been. Um so I guess early on my my my focus was on being a footballer, and and then that kind of swiftly changed into wanting to be competitive in triathlon, and obviously that's where we we met. Um so that's kind of from a sporting perspective. Um, I think if if I've if I remember the question correctly, to do with my where I wanted to be in the future, um, I think was was just around success and just around perceived success, and whether that was football, business, or kind of being a competitive athlete, I wanted to win. That that's what it was. Um I think more so these days, I'm more focused on adventure. I think adventure is my biggest driver. You know, it's kind of you know, like we're doing sitting here doing a podcast, you know, meeting people, um, being able to travel, being able to do different events, um, and yeah, just just kind of uh you know, have different experiences. So I think to kind of summarise that, I would say that when I was younger, I wanted to be a successful footballer, then I wanted to be a competitive athlete, then I wanted to win in business, and actually now it's more about you know having freedom, using um you know, using my business as a tool to be able to go on those adventures. I think you and I were talking about it on the phone, weren't we?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah. Do you think like um that's something that's obviously evolved over time, but with the underlying like you say, the underlying thing was that you wanted to win that stuff. Yep. Um but at what point because certainly for me, things like that, I'd never realised certain things until I got into my sort of late 30s, 40s, the sort of things that I wanted to actually do in my life. Yeah. Because like what we were saying the other day, like you're so institutionalised with school, college, university, and doing the things that everybody thinks is right. Um do you at what point did you realise that that was kind of the underlying theme there for you? About a week ago, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Um I think it's just been a slow unraveling, to be honest. Um I remember when I realised that I wasn't my identity wasn't wrapped up in football, and that that was a re that was a weird thing. Um, I mean, I basically what happened was I was I played football for a couple of years, I was um a reasonable footballer, I then quickly evolved into playing semi pro, like got paid, had some good bits, um, and then I and then I became a a non-league manager. It was the worst time of my life, but I was so wrapped up in my identity being football that I couldn't let go of it. Like I just couldn't let go of it, and um, and I remember getting um getting sacked. We we we had a a reasonable season, we stayed up, we didn't have a budget, um, and we got I got sacked, and I remember getting sacked and laughing because it was just like this big relief that actually like my identity as a football person had been sort of crushed, and when I looked at it, it was like this is ridiculous. I'm not I'm not a foot, I'm not a footballer, I'm not Jonathan the footballer, it's just one of the things that I've done. Yeah, um, so actually, I wish you know, in hindsight, I wish I'd put that down a long time ago because I'd have probably moved on to other things, you know, quick more quickly.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

So I think it's interesting like what it it takes. There's so many people that are just stuck at doing the same things all the time, um and they're genuinely miserable, they might not realise it until they take a you know most people need to take a little bit of a step back and a little bit of a break and a period of reflection. Um and I wish people I wish people would do it more.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah, I think that's what we're trying to do with this this podcast a little bit is to kind of show how with the changes that Ritchie and I have made in our lives that we're so much happier now. Particularly I know you're still an accountant at the moment, working to working my way out my way out of it, but with you know, with the the micro bakery and the sourdough baking that you do in the you know having the bike box business and all the little things that you've done for you rather than because you thought you had to fit into this picture of what success looked like in terms of being an accountant, um I was gonna just ask Jonathan.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Um so when you when you got sacked, yeah, was there and you realised that you're not a footballer or Jonathan footballer, was there a period of grieving, if you like, for that identity, or did you it's a really good question.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

I what I would say is that I was in the pattern of I mean, football was was very much Friday night, you know, you'd you you know you'd be in bed early and you then you'd play Saturday, and then inevitably you'd be in the bar out on a night out, and it was the big topic of conversation. Um so I think what was a struggle wasn't necessarily letting go of football, it was letting go of the routine, you know, like it was like Tuesday night game or training, Thursday night training, Saturday, you know, you'd be out all day, and then you'd you'd be you know either celebrating or getting drunk because you were trying to you know um let go of the feelings of of having a bad day. Yeah, um, so it was more the routine, it was more sort of stepping away from actually Saturdays, like what am I gonna do now?

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, and so what age were you when when were you?

SPEAKER_03 8:38

I think I was about 33 when I stopped when I stopped playing. Okay. Um, and then I quickly I remember having a phone call from one of my friends, he was he said, look, we're doing an Iron Man, do you want to do it? And I was like, Yeah, go on in. Not realising what it was. Um both been there, and then and then that was the start of of a new journey, yeah. Um, and and actually I think I did quite well to not again just wrap myself up in that identity, you know, to kind of hold myself back from from being you know Jonathan the triathletes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

So and so it's uh so what happened then after after football for you? What what did you because presumably you were getting paid and yeah, not not not a lot.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I mean, I I always got paid as a player, um, you know, just again, it was an ego thing, really. You know, it didn't really matter how much you got paid. The fact you were paid to play semi-pro was like a perception of success, yeah. Um ridiculous when you think about it, because actually what I got paid wasn't wasn't huge anyway. Yeah, um, so I I I I I think it was probably about three or four months after I'd stopped playing that that I then had the phone call, and then I just sort of threw myself into triathlon. Um but I remember um I remember my my wife saying to me, you know, you're you're you know, you're getting a bit fat. And and um because I wasn't because not not fat fat, but skinny fat. We've chatted about the skinny, skinny fat fat folks, and and I remember saying I was like, actually, do you know what I need to do something about this? So then started to to sort of get in um you know get get into get in better shape, but like I said to you off off camera, the thing for me is I really struggle unless I've got that end goal, so you know I needed something to book in the diary to then be able to be like right, I'm focused on that and that thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Okay, so from just obviously what we've talked about there is is how things have changed from like within your sporting identity, if you like. So whilst you were or were in the football world into your sort of early 30s, outside of that, what were you doing for work?

SPEAKER_03 10:43

So I've always so since I was 18, I've I've had a um a business. So when I stopped playing football, I literally fell into football coaching. Um and literally from them I've from then I've been self-employed and I've worked in an organization called Premier Education up until um last year. Um, and that has been essentially um sports coaching in schools. So I had a two three franchises up until last year that taught kids in schools, and then I also worked for the organization as well, just kind of helping helping businesses grow. Um, so yeah, that for like 25 years I've I've I've done that, and then recently, probably like the last five-six years, I've worked with small business owners, um, again, helping them grow in lots of kind of different different areas. But uh somebody asked me this earlier, and I'm possibly gonna ask answer a question into the future. But the thing for me isn't I'm not necessarily passionate about business, you know, in many ways I'm not that bothered about it, but what I love is helping people, you know. I just love helping people and and um and and business is a vehicle because I know it, I can kind of use that as a tool to then help people, and that that's what you know that's what fulfills me really.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Okay, and in terms of your perception of what have how you sort of saw the future of business when you went in as an 18-19-year-old taking on that franchise, how has that changed from the age you were then to now, in terms of what you get out of it personally, from uh I suppose an immaterial perspective, and from how you would consider sort of wealth, if you like?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Yeah, it's a really good question. So the the the thing, success for me now, and again it's taken me a long time to get there, it isn't about any external validation of you know, you've got this car or this house or um you know this amount of money in the bank. It's it's never been that. And and if I relate that back to like being in sport, um and I'm you'll I'm sure you'll relate to this as well, Lars, is it's it's it's not the it's not the the podium or the the the win or whatever that is, it's about how I feel internally about the performance that I've put out. So I remember the most satisfying races I've had or football matches I've had, I haven't necessarily won, but I just know internally that actually I've delivered everything that I had there, and regardless of the fact that I came 15th or 10th, like there's a deep satisfaction there. Yeah, and um what I would say about with business is I'm a facilitator or have been a facilitator for for other people to kind of step up and and you know go on and sell their businesses for you know millions of pounds, and I and as much as I haven't received the you know, I get paid to help them, but I've not received the millions of quid that they've had, I've still been part of that, and that there's a there's a huge satisfaction there. Like that that's what that's the most important thing for me. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Um what was our next bit of the uh the questioning?

SPEAKER_03 14:03

And and so and and and sorry, just to also to talk to that, it's it's I read um one of the a guests I had on the podcast recently. He he put out this um incredible piece of work that he basically's got a Substack uh account, you know what Substack is, right? So I'm only recently been exposed to it, and he put out the these seven days of like his his thoughts, and what how he'd written, how he'd written that piece of work, and the the attention to detail was just like a piece of art, and when I read that, it kind of it struck a chord with me in terms of like what when you're producing a piece of work or when you're you're competing in a race or you're taking part in something or you're helping somebody, it's like just that real kind of deep care that you take in that work, and that's something that like recently, particularly we're talking off off um off-air about the the podcast stuff, and like you know, taking three or four hours to review something and just cultivate it so that you're you know really satisfied with the outcome, like that that that's that's something that I've discovered recently.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

It sounds to it sounds like like you've got a lot of things going on obviously with with your business, um what you've done in the past, the podcast. How's it how does it all fit together? Like, what's the what's the interlinking thing there for you?

SPEAKER_03 15:35

It's chaotic at times. Um there's a lot going on. Um the the the the podcast is um has started to take off recently. Like we again we were talking off off camera about that. The the reason to do that is because I just enjoy it, you know. It's just been one of those things that can I swear?

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

It's been one of those things where you know where I've just been like honestly, I couldn't tell you, you know, I couldn't necessarily justify why I'm spending that time, money, and energy on it, but I really enjoy it, and I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna see where it takes me. And it's been so far, um, you know, there's there's there's been bits of it that I've done that have just been shit, and I'm like, that was crap, and there's been episodes that haven't been released, and there's been money spent that shouldn't have been spent, and there's been you know shitty conversations, but also there's been some unbelievable stuff that's come from it, and um, and I just want to do it because it's fun. You know, that that's what it is. You're similar though, right? You know, you're you're just doing stuff because it's fun, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I think we're we're both on, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

That's why we're yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, so yeah, so so so in terms of like what like you know, are you doing it to get um to generate a business? Kind of, but actually the biggest thing is just to kind of you know just outline the fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

We'd we'll we'll have a conversation, we'll chew the fun.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yes. Well, we both worked out that because of the way that our work life is now, is that we do have quite a bit of spare time, so we kind of figured we'd use a bit of that spare time to do something productive, you know, and and something that we enjoy, but also it you know, one of the things that we've mentioned in previous podcasts is it keeps us up to date with things like technology that you know that you know spoke again off air in terms of you know, when someone said, Oh, if you're gonna do a podcast, you need to be on Spotify and Amazon and all of those things. In my head, I was like, Well, how the hell do you do that? Like, well, actually, when you you sit down and you start doing it, it's not that difficult at all. It's just as long as you you sort of source the information from the right places, you know. I spoke to you because you'd started it already, it was just simple, and I think that's one of the one of the things is that you know, we're I suppose fortunate that we've got to where we are in our businesses that we've got the time to experiment with doing other things, and well that's not fortunate though, is it?

SPEAKER_03 18:10

You you've so when we're talking about success, you know, uh and it's a really valid point. A lot of people, you know, they they're they're chasing cars or you know, big houses or um, you know, Rolexes and stuff like that. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but you but I think probably as you get older, you you're more focused on you know having the time to do what you want to do when you want to do it, as opposed to having the you know th those things. So I would say that's that's intentional what you're doing, yeah. And you know, you're it's I don't think it's a coincidence you're there because you've set your lifestyle, you know, you you you've set that coordinate and you're moving towards it, aren't you? In all in all of your decisions.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah. Some I was chatting to somebody, uh one of my clients actually, who said to me because we were I was telling them about a podcast and uh and it was called the you know the about the midlife crisis, and he and he said that in ancient times like you'd be running away, you know, if you want to go and get some food, or if you're hungry, you'd have to go and get catch some food. Um and while you're catching up some food, you might get changed by a bit or a line. But those are like real crisis crises, yeah, and it's almost ingrained in you as a human being that there'll be you know there'll be a crisis at some point and it it kind of says that all the things that you do in your life, you're almost looking intentionally for a crisis to have to go and solve or five, um, which I thought was quite interesting because uh if I look at what I do, I could I could be an accountant for the rest of my life. And this is you know, for most people that are in a career, you could do that for the rest of your life, but I've chosen to do something else, and actually I'm finding it far more interesting than being an accountant because of all the things that I'm having to try and work out along the way. Um and yes, I have got a a safety net with the accounting and the other bits and pieces that that we've kind of intentionally set up so that we could do things like this, um, but it is you you're almost throwing yourself into a crisis to uh to have to go and go and solve it. I mean, is there anything that you've done in your life that probably my whole life sign up to an Iron Man?

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Well, I mean Iron Man Iron Man exactly that. You know, you're not signing up the same as with with you know with your with your cycling you're doing, you're not you know, that's brutal. I mean it's and I think you you we're probably consciously putting ourselves in in those difficult positions because then you have to figure it out. I mean, yeah, I mean Iron Man, I I loved, I don't know what you were like last, but I loved the geekiness of you know looking at nine months down the line and and looking at a race in I don't know when I did a race in northern Spain and I looked at this race in nine months and I booked it, and then you like reverse engineering all of the things you need to do to get there, so that you know that would be getting the best kit, getting the best coach, you know, massages, um, you know, go doing technical work, um, figuring out logistics, you know, booking races that lead up to it. Like, I used to love all of that, and then you, you know, then you've got to go and do the training, you know, and and figure all that out around life. Yeah, so that, but yeah, that I mean that's a absolutely a forced pain there and a forced crisis.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

I I've got a I've got a mate that's interested in doing a triathlon, first triathlon. He's a he's a runner at the minute, and he and he's like he said, I want to do I think I want to do an Ironland Defront 40s 33, 34 now. And I just sent him a link to I think it's the Birmingham triathlon. I thought it came up in my thing. I said, Why don't you just it's his birthday today? I just entered you into this for your birthday. I I haven't. But you know, you almost need that thing to throw that in the ring, and then you're like shit, I've got this, this is coming up in a couple of months. How the fuck, how the fuck am I gonna do this? Yeah, you know, that you know and then find a way. You find you always find a way, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

I mean, you when I spoke to you on the phone, we had a chat for about half an hour, and and and you you I think you were you you're clearly not challenged by your accounting, yeah, and there's a need to kind of push yourself and do different stuff, yeah. And um, I think it's a you know that the thought of having to do the same stuff all the time, I I would struggle with that. Yeah, I think you need that challenge.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

I think because you've obviously done a number of different things. Do you think like did you naturally get to the end of one thing and then do something else, or did you get bored of it and then go off and do something else? Kind of what what was the trigger to go and do something else?

SPEAKER_03 22:58

It's really good. I think with with football, I didn't when once I'd finished playing professionally, yeah, I I didn't apply myself properly. Yeah, I didn't I didn't apply myself properly. So what was going to happen there is that you my my ability could have took me further, not not necessarily you know earning thousands of pounds on on a weekly basis, but I I could and should have probably had a better non-league career. Yeah, should have been playing and getting paid a lot more, but I didn't apply myself because my head had gone, you know, I didn't know how to emotionally continue and be professional. Um, then I'm so I slowly just slipped down the leagues and then got frustrated and you know didn't wasn't fit enough. Triathlon was a new challenge. I loved that, you know. I loved being shit and then being better and then learning and sort of geeking out on all that stuff. But I think that the thing um probably a trait of mine is that I then try too hard and I'm too into it, yeah, and it just becomes a bit too much. And particularly with triathlon, I mean Iron Man is laws or no, but like you know, you're training three times a day, yeah. You know, so you'll consuming you know, I remember I remember once, you know, going out for a five and a half hour bike ride. I've been out all day, coming in, putting my trainers on, and then going and running for an hour, and it's just like what like this isn't sustainable. It's not anyone that does try does Iron Man racing for uh I don't know how you do it for for for more than three or four years without just being mentally burnt out.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Well it was a guy though, I know he took a sabbatical from work to to do cono.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, um you'd have to, and it's a massive investment, yeah. It's not it's a huge cost to education to get there and do that, but but sort of on that basis, in terms of the sort of football and the triathlon thing. So I for a long period of time my identity was that I'm a triathlete, yeah, and then when I got along COVID and I was forced to step away from it, there were like I found that quite difficult because it was like, Well, what am I now? Um, you know, what do I do? And and that's where I threw myself into work, um, and we worked together sort of in that period of time, and and I think that was just because I needed something else to focus on, and and but like you say, these sort of things happen in people's lives that it doesn't always, it's not necessarily a conscious choice to do that, but circumstances force you to do that. So, with the football and and you sort of moving from that into triathlon, was it that you'd got to a stage where you weren't enjoying the football? Yeah, I wasn't it. Was it and was it that you weren't, you know, in terms of what the the leagues were looking for, was it that your standard didn't meet what they wanted? And so you were like, that's why you lost the enjoyment because you didn't feel wanted as a player. How and how did that dynamic?

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Probably all of that, if I'm honest. I think the one I wasn't fit enough, and I and I wasn't, and I was just kind of cruising, so I was getting the and this is the thing with any any sport, you know, sporting events, you kind of you can't cheat your fitness, can you? You know, you you you can't turn up to a race or a a time trial or a triathlon and be like, oh I'll wing it. You're gonna get the result that reflects how much hard work you put in. So that's what I was getting, but in my head, I was still good enough to play, but I wasn't hadn't applied myself, so it was it was um it was difficult, but I think I was still so that's the first thing. I definitely wasn't working hard enough, but I was um I was still wrapped up in the identity of being a footballer, and it was only when I, you know, down years down the line that I let go of that that I realised that I didn't I wasn't really bothered about football. I mean, there was probably, if I'm honest, three games a season that I really enjoyed. The rest of it I was just doing it because it was habit and I thought I should. That that that's you know that that's what it was. Do you miss it at all? I'm do I miss it. Um what trial final football? Um football some of the games you played in where there was, you know, I mean I played in a game where there was uh like we had a crowd of like three and a half thousand people, um probably three or four games a season that were amazing, you know, and you'd you'd have you'd you'd win a game, you beat a team you shouldn't be, um you know, you'd have some success. They they were good times. Um, I wouldn't say I miss it. Um Triathlon, I miss the the point where you're in the race and you're firing and you know you're going well and you're overtaking people. Like I'm I I love that, but then when I think about whether I've got it in me right now to do all the work to get there, I'm like, no, no way.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Do you think it's the same for like professional footballers?

SPEAKER_03 27:57

I would say 50% of professional footballers don't like playing football. Really? Yeah, 100%. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah, I mean I look at like some of the professional scientists and the amount of work that you have to do and how strict you have to be with diet and all that. And it's you're like it, you're like a robot like a robot. Yeah, and I can imagine I can imagine what you're saying, like man, it's not comfortable sitting on a saddle every day.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

I can't imagine like the soreness of that. You've got a I don't know, there must be something I think they're built differently, aren't they? Because you know, I you know when I even when I did triathlon, if I did a a five, six hour ride, like I wouldn't want to ride the next day just because when they do that every day for three weeks in the Tour de France and things like it's just I think I think you sorry, cool. But yeah, I the reason I was asking those questions about in terms of you missing the football and things like that and the triathlon is that now that I've got sort of hopefully touch words past all the symptoms that I had with long COVID, I'm starting to go back to it, but I'm going back to it because I just want to enjoy it and do it as for fun rather than competitively, which is like how I used to do it. Um, and that's been the same with the hockey and the skiing, like uh I've mentioned those in previous episodes, is that I'm I'm going back to those because because I do enjoy them, but like you said with the triathlon, I think if I if I go back into it too hard, I'd end up burning out or not wanting to do it again because of the work that's required to get to a level. So, but I think that's only happened as I've got older, in that I'm happy to do it for fun, whereas 10 years ago I did it because I wanted to try and win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I think that's an age thing, which is obviously relevant to this podcast in in terms of sort of mid-life. How do you find that? Obviously, when you're working with business professionals, you'll work with people of different age demographics. How does their attitude change? Would you say, like if you related it to what I've just said there in sport in terms of being competitive or doing it because you enjoy it? Do you see that with those changes in a business perspective as well?

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Um, well, first thing I wanted to say is that I'm jealous of Rishi because we were talking earlier about um, you might have to remind me of that comp that question in a minute, but but but we were talking earlier, and you were just saying how much you love just training, and I and I and I and I do enjoy the training I do now, but I'm jealous, and I'm probably sure you are as well, Lars, that that you know you've got that, you just love it. Um, and the outcome is that you're naturally going to do well anyway because you love it, and that's a sustainable, you know, that's a sustainable fuel for that. Um so yeah, I'm a little bit jealous about that, but you have to rhyme eye on that question because it was a long question.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah, yeah, it's like like I said earlier on, though, just sorry, that's all right. Hold on. I'll try and remember it now. The thing that I won yesterday, the time troll that I won yesterday, the the whole winning part of it, just just like I went up, shook the guy's hand, sort of just came home and just carried on with life, really. And today I'll go and do my session because I want to do that session, yeah. Um and it's I try and put that into everything that I do. Yeah. Um and I think that you've got to enjoy what you're doing at the end of the day, particularly in work anyway. Yeah. And I think it's only then that you then it it doesn't feel like work.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Yeah. I I think just before I forget this, because I will forget, but the the the importance of and I think most people don't get this right, is a lot of people like say they want to do this thing and they want to be good at it. Very few people are actually willing to do exactly what it takes to get there. Yeah, and and I'd certainly with Iron Man and football, like at the end, I wasn't willing to do that. And I think you have to be honest enough to just say, do you know what? I ain't got it in me. Like with that particular thing, yeah. Um, and clearly with the cycling, you have, you know, you want to you want to do the work and you enjoy the process regardless of the outcome.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Have you ever worked with people in it from a business perspective? Sorry, I was like, I've still got it in the same time. Have you ever worked with people have you worked with people in your business life that have that that have that have got that problem where they they're not willing to do their work, they want X and they're here, but they're not willing to, you know, they think that they're it's almost an entitlement thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Yeah, and and and the conversation and and I've worked with people you like you have to be honest with the people that you work with, and there has to be a match, an alignment between what you want and what you're able to do for them and what they're willing to do. But I mean, some of the the conversation I have with clients now is I can show you, I can show you a blueprint of success and what you need to do. Um, because I because I've been there and I've and I've done it and I've worked with other clients, but you have to do the work, yeah. And I've had people say, like, what do you mean? I'm like, I I I can show you success because I've worked with these people here, yeah, and that they've all had success. But unless you do the work, unless you turn up and make those phone calls and build that spreadsheet and put those things out on social media, it's not gonna work. And I know you I know you're thinking because you you'll have worked with you know, particularly as a PT or coach, you know, you know what success is, like, and you know what you know, it's not it, they've got to do the work, yeah. So so that that's entirely frustrating at times or has been when you know I I've got instances where I've I've given two people exactly the same, you know, framework, um intricacies are different, and one has gone off and you know relocated abroad and and sold their business, and the other one is is ringing you up to say, actually, this isn't working, yeah. And it's like okay, but like, well, why is it why is it not working for you? But yet it's working for you.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, just on that point, actually, I'll still remember my question, but relating to that point, was one of the guys that I've been training for a long time um ran the Manchester Marathon yesterday, and his goal since 2018 was to go sub uh four hours. 357, yeah, and and I've always known that he's capable of that, but he fully admit that probably for the last nine-ten years that I've been training him, he never sticks to the plan because he he just he loves doing events, like not for the result, but just to be involved. So I would have, for example, a plan of A race, B race, C race, etc. And I've put those strategically in the right places so that you know we can come into the right fitness for the marathon that you're trying to get sub four at, and then three weeks out from that final race, he'll go and do a tough mudder in London the day before the marathon, and so do the tough mudder, drive up to Manchester in the morning and do the marathon and not get the result, but he'd still be happy because like he's just enjoyed doing like but he's always like I know that he's always wanted to hit that, and so this year he's been much stricter with his plan, he's followed the plan, and he's got the result, and that's and that's just sort of proof in the pudding, if you like.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Yeah, and that's where you need to just be clear on what is success for you. Yeah, what is you know what is success? Because again, like with with clock with certain clients, um, I mean, probably you like you lose as a as a case and example, your your focus isn't hasn't been on you know scaling a seven or eight-figure business. Your you know, your focus is is is your time and and being able to choose what you do, and that that and I think when you're clear on what that is, then you can work with individuals, whether it's coaching or as an accountancy um firm and help people achieve what their percept, you know, what what their perception of success is.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, I think the difficulty is people aren't always honest with themselves, which is probably like you know, using me as an example. When we started working together, in my head, I think I was you know, I was telling you that I wanted to have a clinic in this place, and we started to do that, but actually I didn't enjoy that because I wasn't prepared to put the work in to do that because that massively sacrificed my time, and and so in the end it just scaled back down to to just being me. But I don't think I was you know, I was honest with myself in terms of or maybe it was just my perception of what I thought I needed to do to get to that point was wrong, yeah. Um, and that's just taken time to to work out, but I think that's yeah, maybe people are just in too much of a rush, and and again, there's that that in business you must find that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah, I mean it it's um like everything takes time typically, and and I think because of social media and um you know what how things are perceived, you quite often you miss all of the hard work, or in fact, most of the time, people don't see the hard work that that is going on in the background, um, and it just takes time. So we were talking about the the podcast, and I was I was explaining off camera about a friend of mine who you know he's absolutely the podcast is absolutely flying, but I remember going on his show, you know, two and a half years ago when you know they were sort of scrambling for guests, and he I spoke to him the other day, and and now they're inundated with people contacting them to be you know to come on their show.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Is that a funny thing that when people are scrambling for guests or the guests? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

Yeah, exactly, exactly that what is definitely on the turn and what is simple as that. You see, you've got the many stripes, you know, and it's it's it's it's exciting the journey, it's exciting, you know, watching them grow and evolve and seeing a couple of their videos go viral and stuff, but also I'd say there's a there's quite often if I explain this properly, there's a lag between the the effort and the work you do, and then that translating into the what the outcome is. It's like you might be doing the work and you might have done everything you need to do, but it it will just take might take an extra three, six, seven, eight, two years to to actually see that come through, and you just have to kind of keep going and and keep keep doing whatever it is that you you're doing to to make that happen. So it's again the same with triathlon, isn't it? Yeah, and any type of training, you don't you don't smash yourself for six months and then after you know six months, one day you're suddenly fit. You've still it's still gonna take time for that for that fitness to kick in.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

I th I think the culture in this country, well not just this country, but just in general in this day and age, every everyone's moving at a million miles an hour, nobody's got time to think about what it is that they actually want to do, um, which is why people get stuck in jobs that they hate for such a long time. And you can't you can't you can't they get stuck you get stuck in like trading up your lifestyle, you get a pay rise and you know it gets harder and harder then to do the thing that you wanna do, but because it doesn't it doesn't happen overnight you have to keep chipping away at it or you have to make those brave decisions to step away from your job and you know throw yourself into these things, but at what point at what point do you do it? I I personally I think you kind of just have to cut the cord.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Well, I mean, first of all, I'd say not everybody should do it, yeah. Because some people, and again, this is the whole perception as to what you should be doing. Yeah, you know, I I would have said to everybody up until probably 10 years ago, you should be your own boss and you should do do you know you should work for yourself. That isn't true because not not everybody can handle that.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

But if you don't try it, how do you not how do you know?

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Uh because you might know. You you might be you might be somebody that just wants to to go and work nine till five and to to to have a you know a job that you don't need to think and you get home and you you're quite happy to dial out and spend time with your kids. I think every everybody's everybody's very different. But if you've got an itch, like you you should scratch it, yeah. You you know you you should you should try you should try. Yeah. Um you know, you need to be prepared that it's probably not going to be uh a straight line of success. Um I mean in my sort of second business that we set up, it took me three years to take any money out.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Um, but again, you know, the people don't see that, and then when you look sort of back after sort of being in that business for 20 years, all of a sudden you you know that's a a decent sized business with staff and you know paying you a decent chunk of money, but you forget all of the work that you've done early in early days to get there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Relevant to Rishi's point, um, in terms of people having that itch to scratch, with people's working environment changing quite a lot since Covid, have you found that there's more people who have the like the side hustle but want the sort of knowledge that you've got to try and build it?

SPEAKER_03 42:16

I mean, a a lot of people have got side hustles now, um and I don't think that's a bad thing. Um what was the what was the second bit?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

So is it do you think people are like with that side hustle and the time that they've got to do it, with the sort of experience that you've got, do you are you working with people that are trying to turn their side hustle into a business, or is it you is it usually already transferred that they've got the business and then they're looking to expand it?

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Yeah, most of the businesses I work with are already established. I can't, I can't. I mean, sometimes people will come to me and they'll ask me, you know, I've got this idea, and and I'll sort of talk to them about that. Um, might give them some advice and a bit of guidance. Um, yeah, typically typically the work I do is with established businesses, businesses that maybe have plateaued, they're they need they probably need some accountability. A lot of a lot of what the work we do is accountability, you know. I mean you're you know, same with with with what you do, Lars. A lot of it is you know, is the power of having somebody check in on you and watch what you do and you know um put you a plan, but most people need that. I mean you're you know you're a case and example as well. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

So I have remembered the question. So in turn, so my question was with regards to how your sort of career changed from in a sporting environment from Jonathan the football player to Jonathan the triathlete to Jonathan the high roxer now. Um in terms of people's careers and the different state like demographics of age that you would work with, is Someone in their 20s very different to work with as compared to someone in their 40s?

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Yeah, I mean probably when you're in your 20s, you you've got more flexibility to have a go at things because you you probably haven't got a big mortgage, you probably haven't got kids. Um, so I think it's easier to do that. Um, I think there's probably most people less fear as they get older. Um, you know, there's more of a kind of a young, I wouldn't say naivety is not the right word, but there's more of a I'll give it a go type attitude. Um and typically, not always, but younger people tend to be more open to listening and taking on guidance. Whereas, and again, not always, but older people like they they they tend to have to be like really struggling and like it being a shit show for them to make any changes.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

That that's that's typically what what I see, and because and that is what we sort of think is relevant to the podcast, is that people are like that generally with their lives, is they get stuck in that you know, they've been in the job and they've got to a certain level in their career, and even though they don't like it and the circumstances that they find themselves in don't fit with the life that they sort of foresaw for themselves, they won't make those changes.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

Yeah, I mean it yeah, it's it's um and you you and they have to come to that realisation themselves, they have to be in enough shit or enough you know pain to make a change, and you you can talk people to the blue in the face, but until they're at that point, they're never gonna make a change, they're just they're just not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

How should we as a podcast convince people what to make a change?

SPEAKER_03 45:56

Uh well I think the only way you can I think what doing what you're doing, you know, talking about stuff and just just sharing it. I think if you again I you know I I I'm I was the world's worst for giving unsolicited advice. Um but what I find is that when you just you know when you just kind of being who you are and you know being as authentic as you can be, you know, quite often people are watching and they're just taking note and you know they will they'll just be a little bit intrigued and then they might ask you a question and then all of a sudden they're signing up to something that maybe you've you know you've shown them on social media, whatever that is. I think that's the best way, is just leading by example.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

And um for you where where you are now looking to the future, what what is success for you within the future now?

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Um well what I think what I would say is I'd answer I'd say something else to that, and that is that I am literally just started again. So whilst I've been in business since I was 18, um the I'm 44, am I 44?

SPEAKER_04 47:01

What older than I'm 45?

SPEAKER_03 47:02

I'm 45, I like because we've got but so I've just started again. So so I sold my um I sold my business um April last year, not for a not for a life-changing amount of money, but enough that I could transition into a new into a new thing, which which has been um setting up alchemy hubs. So I am you know that's where I am, and I and I'm doing everything that we're kind of talking about. You know, I wake up at four o'clock in the morning worrying about things and you know uh trying to build the business whilst working with other businesses and going through all those growing pains. I'm I'm doing all of that, yeah. So I'm I kind of absolutely relate to what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

This is kind of your new crisis, yes, yeah, yeah, but but but but it and it's but you've got the safety net of you know to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Um I I think the safety net is is your own ability, isn't it? You know, it's the skills that you've got, you know. That that's that's the biggest safety net. Um just kind of backing, yeah, backing myself. Yeah, cool. There was something else you asked me there, but I've I sort of jumped on that question. I can't remember what it was, no.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

No, no, it was it was about success into the future.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

I mean you've already obviously obviously started again and I I I I would say success is for me is about uh is about adventure, yeah. Is it's about experiencing things and it's um and of course money helps with that and having you know being your own boss helps with that because uh you know if I I can choose what I do that that's the biggest driver for me, and I think money will money comes off the back of that. Um that that's that's that's my primary that's my primary thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Yeah, I think one of the things that we've we've sort of established through the conversations that we've had is actually that your perception of success is gonna change through life anyway, because you know if you didn't have kids, you're you're you know what you look if you had kids and you didn't have kids your perception of success changes straight away. And and I think that's you know what you've just touched on there is really important is that success is gonna be what it will be based on where you're at in your life at the moment, because you know, success for me when I was 18-19 was that I wanted to ski for Great Britain. That didn't happen, but that doesn't mean that my world is now a shit show because from then onwards my vision of what success is has changed, and so I think that's the key thing is that wherever you're at in life and what you're working towards is your perception of success, but you have to be prepared to accept that when you get there or you don't get there, depending on what happens with the circumstances, there'll always be something else that you can look at as a way to progress.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Yeah, and and also and and what what I would say is that you know, maybe you were never meant to be a professional skier. And we're born in Britain, so that's but but you know, maybe that wasn't your quest anyway, and and maybe as much as I always thought I was gonna be a footballer, actually, you know, I can bring bigger impact on on the world with with you know helping build a huge education business that teaches tens of thousands of kids on a weekly basis. What's more important that I played at, you know, I played uh at Wembley or or whether you know I helped build something that's probably changed kids' lives. When you think about it, really, football, you know, it it comes and goes. No one really cares, do you really?

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Do you think um do you think people focus too much on money?

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Yes. Yeah, I think they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

I was just having a conversation with my brother about this this morning, and um my dad was a little bit of a workaholic. I mean he loved it, he absolutely loved it working. And he died suddenly when he was 69 and didn't enjoy any of the wealth that he created. Um but um the the question I had to was not, would he have at what point would he have had enough? I don't I don't think he would have stopped. But really he could have it back enjoyed. Enjoy it off. I've got a friend who's garage, exactly the same. But but I mean he's not the most successful person I know, and he's got massive ass portion of the garage. He's he could quite easily retire right now. But I've said to him at what point is enough.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

I think I can answer that for you. In all my wisdom. But I think you answered it yourself when you said he loved working. Yeah, is that he did it because he loved working, so that was his purpose was that he wanted to get working, so he was doing what he loved anyway, without the money.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah, that's my that's how I think I I don't think he would have ever retired, but there are other people that I know like this this other this other lad. He's got more money than he knows what to do with.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

I mean, you as an accountant will know as well, most people are looking at the wrong metrics, yeah. They're they're thinking about turnover and uh and size of businesses when actually I think more and more so, you know, you you can build really good wealth from a very efficient business running it yourself, yeah. But you and you've got to be smart about it. Yeah, yeah. You you know, you've got to be really intentional about what that you know what your life looks like and what what your business looks like. I mean, I've the the you know, I I know businesses I won't speak specific to them, but they they you know, where they've had 50 staff, you know, turning over you know a couple of million quid, and then they're making you know, they're they're not they're making peanuts, and it's like why? Yeah, you know, what why why would you if you scaled it back, made it more efficient, 100%? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think I think that's really important. Just touching, I'll tell you something funny. You'll probably chuckle at this loss, but my the whole success thing with um so high rocks, you know, you and I have raced triathlon and um and and endurance sports for a long time, and and you as part of that you're quite scrawny, aren't you? Whereas with high rocks, you know, you you get in reasonable shape. And my goal for the high last high rocks was to race with my top off. That was my goal. It wasn't anything about time, it wasn't anything about time. It was about that, and but again, what was what was you will chuckle at this, but what was funny was as I got closer to it, I was like, this is ridiculous. Like I don't I don't need to, and also from uh from um from uh um what's the word like just a functional perspective, racing with your top off isn't smart anyway because you sweat, and if you're sweating and you've got nothing to you know to wipe your face on or hands on, you it's not helpful anyway. So as much as I was I could have done that because I was happy with the aesthetics of how I looked, it's like this is stupid. Um but but the It didn't fit the mould me also but the but the goal itself was was was a was a different goal and a good goal, and you know I was I was you know I was happy anyway. Yeah, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Alright, I think we should wrap it up on that as a last comment. Um but yeah, obviously, thanks thanks very much for coming on. Um, you know, first guest tick tock. That's good. Enjoyed it. In two years' time, you'll have 50 million. We're gonna relate back to this episode where we scrambled for a guest and music came in.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

But it's but in all seriousness, and it is a cliche, but the the journey is is the fun bit, isn't it? You know, you'll get um you know, when you get your first thousand views or downloads or whatever that is, like that, you've got to celebrate that stuff, yeah, yeah. Because there'll always be somebody else that's got 50 million views.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Well, BuzzSpraut gives us a little thing, you know. The fact that we've done five episodes is more than most podcasters ever do because they give up before.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

Absolutely. Yeah, and you don't you don't know you don't know who's listening. You know, there'll be there'll be one person that's listening, maybe that listens to this and it inspires them and it might just take them on a trajectory.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah, yeah. 25% of our audience is in America. There you are. Happy days.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Great, right? Cool, thanks very much for coming on, mate. Good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

It's been good. All right, cheers, yeah, good stuff, done.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Good.