Episode 8. Numbers and Money...BUT worlds apart!

Welcome back to Episode 8 of the podcast!

This week, we're joined by Neil, a good friend of Rishi's and a former colleague from their days working together at Capita. But while many people talk about making the leap from corporate life to entrepreneurship, Neil actually did it.

Not long after Rishi left Capita, Neil followed a very different path, teaming up with his brother and two of his brother's colleagues to launch a wealth management business. The challenge? Neil came from an accounting background and had virtually no experience in wealth management. For the first 6 to 12 months, his full-time job was essentially studying, taking exams, and learning everything he needed to succeed in a completely new industry.

Fast forward six years, and what started from scratch has grown into a thriving business managing around £250 million in assets, with no signs of slowing down.

In this episode, we talk about the realities of building a business from the ground up, the steep learning curve of changing careers, and the huge contrast between life inside a corporate giant like Capita and the freedom that comes with creating your own culture, values, and way of working.

It's a fascinating conversation about risk, growth, resilience, and what can happen when you back yourself and take the leap.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

What are we calling this one?

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Episode eight.

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Number eight.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Number actually, I don't know. Episode eight with my very good friend Neil Wottam. Welcome back everyone. Episode eight. We have another guest. Morning. Guest number two. Guest number two. And Neil is a good friend of mine who I met when we were employed at Capita. Yep. Many, many years ago now. Well, actually, we're not that long ago, but it kind of feels like a almost a year. Surely not. I reckon it is. I left in 2018.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I did as well. But I can't remember which bit I left from. But we knew each other. 2019. So I left 2018, so I reckon it's approaching 10 if it's not 10.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, crack it. Time flies. Yes, time flies. So, like I say, uh almost a different lifetime ago, but uh we thought we'd get Neil on the pod today uh as we kind of tracked fairly similar paths from being employed with both accountants. Um would you still class yourself as an accountant, Neil?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yes, yeah, I'm maybe still wearing the badge more than you're an accountant.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Big rudging accountant, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Um but yeah, we've you know both followed fairly similar paths, and we've both gone on to do quite quite different things. You're still working in financial services, yeah. Um but oh well look, I don't need to tell people about you. I think uh uh we'll perhaps start off with uh yeah, tell us a little bit about your your journey, where you started um and where you are now.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Cool, thanks, and thanks for having me on. Um so if I wind back slightly, we were talking about school and exam. So I did design at uni, industrial design at Loughbury Uni, enjoyed that because I liked doing it, then realised I wasn't very good at drawing, uh, got a good degree, got a first-class honours despite not being able to draw, uh, relied on computers, did that. I went back to Boots, who I had a placement year with, went into Boots and then realised I didn't want to do that. But I was in this purchasing department that talked about business a lot, and I was like, oh, how do I get into business? Whatever business is. Yeah. And then what do you do when you've got a design degree and want to get into business? Don't know accountancy, obviously. So I then joined a graduate scheme with BDO um down in Hertfordshire. So moved home, moved down there, did that for three years in audit, ran out the door as soon as I could. Um, went to Tesco, so went to a massive FTSE100 business. Uh enjoyed it, then we decided we wanted kids, so we just moved back up here. Then I moved to Capita. Um uh that was in 2011. So started there in 2011, and uh yeah, it was tough. It's a hard, hard seven years I was ultimately there. Um, but very good, enjoyed it, met some great people like yourself. Um and so yeah, I loved it to a degree, as in the accounting, but it was just written, can I swear? Really fucking hard and really, really stressful at times, and to the point where I got very down and quite not ill, but really, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Do you think that was a capital thing or do you uh an accounting profession? I think it's capital.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

It might have been X times Y, as in one times the other, because uh accounting, especially in corporate lands, can be pretty stressful anywhere, but um it was the pressure there as well as what we were doing. But I think it was a culture thing, yeah. Culture there, um very generically, was good and bad. Some bits were okay, yeah, some bits were pretty, pretty toxic.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

I think some of some of it though is quite character. I think particularly as an accountant, when you go through that month end process, uh it's I always used to think it was character building.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Um and I always liken it a bit to training um you know for cycling. Yeah. If you can put yourself in a situation where you're 100 miles away from home, you've got to get back. Yeah, yeah. You've got to get through month in come what way, you've got to hit those deadlines, and you know, sometimes having those boundaries are good.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely taught me a lot and sort of resilience and getting through it, and you know, but some bits were just horrid, really, really horrible. But uh yeah, it it did a serves a purpose.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Yeah, I think I can relate to that. Obviously, I'm not an accountant, I've never been in an accountancy firm and such. But when I worked at Michael Page, yeah, it's no, definitely never definitely put me off the I was heading towards doing my qualifications, but um but yeah, no, having having worked in for Michael Page in recruitment, yeah, it's that it's it's a big corporate environment, and again, you it's in a you're in a sales job in in in recruitment and it's a month end, you know, have you hit your targets for this month? Yeah, and you've got those pressures in that environment as well. And and like you said, Richie, you can you know, when I was recruited to Michael Page, they like the fact that I had a sporting background because I'm competitive and they like they want that sort of person in that environment, yeah. Um, so you can sort of use that to your advantage in those sort of um jobs, job roles, I think. But like you said, in terms of there being good experiences and bad experiences, once you leave, you realize how much different it can be creating your own environment and how much more you lean towards the good experiences than putting yourself into those pressure situations where the bad situations arise, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And I think you felt I felt the pressure because I was the main breadwinner, and which I still am, but you know, it was different then, yeah. So the pressure, and yeah, we both again had families early doors during our capital time. Um, but yeah, it was tough.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

But if if you think back to kind of um your your your journey up until that point, uh so school, college, uni, job. Yeah, it kind of took a fairly traditional path. And on paper, yeah, I'd say it probably looked pretty good. Uh you like I say the the main breadwinner, um successful in your own right in your career. But were you happy at that point? Do you think? Um I know take away the stresses.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, probably was. It's a good question. Um probably was because I moved around a lot during capital. I probably worked in six, at least six different businesses within the business. Yeah, so you went from one place to the other and you kind of got different experiences, and some were much happier than others. Yeah, but on the whole, probably. Yeah, and I think it was back to that sort of not risk reward, but the rewards were decent, yeah, but you were putting in like the hard yards, and did that make me happy, kind of, and it made me allowed to go on holidays and you know do the stuff I wanted to do, yeah, which brings more happiness than work or did. Yeah. So sort of.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And so I suppose then what what drove you to what drove you what drove the change? Because I think when I was just leaving, it was after my dad died, um, you were still there as a consultant interest.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, so yeah. Sorry, you're right. I left in 2018 as an employee after my my daughter's paternity leave. I went back and handed my notice in. Um then so I quit as an employee, did my exams, which we'll come to in a second, my new business, yeah, and then went back to Capita as a consultant. Yeah, because I knew you were called. And then I left in 2019-20. Yeah. So actually a longer stint. But actually, going back, I was much happier when I was a consultant going back because I had I wasn't an employee, yeah. I could leave, they could fire me equally, but you know, it was a it was a different dynamic, which was interesting, despite going back to the same overall place when you're there on sort of your own terms, yeah, it was much better. But equally, I was in another part of the business which is different again, yeah. So um, but so the trigger to leave was I was sat with my brother a bit like this at Christmas 2017, um, around that time, and he was like, I'm thinking of starting a business, and I was like, Oh, how do I get in? I've never necessarily had the entrepreneurial thing, but I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting. Um, but they didn't need me as an accountant doing what we did, so I was a bit like well, okay, that means I need to quit, retrain, and do that, basically. But so there's no long-term plan for that, it was that sounds interesting. Can I get in?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Um, and so not to join as an accountant, but because it was more of a partner within the yeah, yeah, so almost completely different. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

The the link is only financial services, yeah, and that's a loose link given what I did at Capita versus what I do now. Yeah, um, but there was no plan, there was no, you know, I think there was no discussion with my wife. I mean there was a bit, but it was a bit like I'm gonna go and do that. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it's a big it's a big risk, yeah. Huge risk.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

How old were you at that point? Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

How old?

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Yeah. Uh 37? Okay. So with you mentioned that you had to do some training and some exams to to get to the qualifications that you have for the business you're now in. Yeah. What how sort of did you manage that alongside your job?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Was it uh quite difficult to get those you know, times to study and or I so I quit in April 2018, I finished in July 2018, right? And then had the summer to do that. Okay. So my my job was my exams for three months or ish, because there were certain deadlines when you had to do certain exams. Okay. So we were planning on launching the business the next year, so basically I was the last one because I'd only just done it. Yeah. So my focus every day, like nine to five, was exams.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

So had you um so when you were working as a consultant at Entrust, wasn't it? Um had had the business already got off the ground at that point? No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

No, so I was so summer 18, I did my exams, I passed all the exams, and then basically it's a case of right guys, I'm ready. Yeah, what about you lot? Okay, uh, and one was getting divorced, one was having more children, and you know, life's getting in the way a little bit. Um basically hence I went back to Capita, uh, partly as a well I need to earn some money, yeah. Uh, so I did that whilst we got everyone got their shit in order, and then we applied to the FCA and then eventually got going. So the business was I quit before anything was ready. Right. And there's no business, there was no plan. The plan was to do it, but not how, when, you know, what it would look like.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

It sounds like you were almost more organised than everybody else to or more geared up.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

I was probably yeah, yeah, and I was probably yeah, more ready.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Is that because you had more flexibility with capital or you just had less shit going on?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Probably less shit. Yeah. And maybe a more uh willing spouse, willing, just happy to let me go and do it, rather than what are you doing? Yeah, I hope she's gonna listen to this. I know. Well, so I don't know, yeah. Um, but I guess my life was in a decent spot, yeah, despite having very young children, yeah, uh, and taking a big risk to quit. But I was always like, well, I think like you guys said before, it can always go and get a job. Yeah, I always knew that, and I know that. Yeah, so the risk was arguably not that big, even if it was a big step to take, and having no business plan, no plan other than that's a good thing. I mean, that's me, the greenest of green, no idea what a financial advisor does. I read the books. It's like you know, the reality of reading a book and passing the exam to doing it is clearly different, yeah. But um, so yeah, so it basically was the two years from quitting Capita uh in 2018 to April 20 when we launched, was a period of exams and then business planning, applying to the FCA and then launching in the height of lockdown, yeah. Back in April, about lockdown, so yeah, it's it was a big risk, but I was kind of like, well, eh, it'd be alright. Yeah, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Yeah, and did you have so obviously you you quit the job that you had to do the the courses and do the learning? Um obviously you would have had some sort of financial sort of pot of money that you were able to sort of rely on. Is that from uh you know sort of previous savings, or did you find that you were starting to dip into things that you didn't want to necessarily whilst you were doing the learning? How did that you just because you're thinking of people that maybe wouldn't be in that position where they've got the money to go I can live off that whilst I do this? You know, how would that have been different if you didn't have that?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Do you think you still would have made the same decision, or I think I probably approached it a little bit naively at the beginning, thinking I'll be alright? And because there was no plan, it was almost just let's just do that. Yeah, I did have savings, but did I have enough? I don't can't remember, but I had enough to last for a bit, yeah, knowing that I'm gonna need to do something to get some more. But once I'd done the exams and we had a slightly built the plan of when and what we're gonna do, it was like when I was doing the consulting, it was pretty just squirrel away and then get to the point where because then even when we launched, there was still no income. It's like, oh great, off we go. Oh, I've still got nothing. Um, so there's a period of time where you still have to rely on savings. Um, so I had built up more than I don't know, a year's worth, probably, maybe more at least. Um, which always gives you that fallback of we can afford to wait. And if it takes a year to earn some money, then it takes a year.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I think going back to what you were saying before, like the the mindset that you can always go and get a job. If it the shit really does sit the plan, and you did that, didn't you? Yeah, you know, when you were just setting up, you go and do whatever if that's the path that you're on, but you need money, you can always get a job, particularly in our field anyway, you know. Um and in your field, yeah. You can you can go and get a job just to make ends meet without taking your foot off the gas on the on the business side of things.

SPEAKER_07 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Um but I think it's a mindset thing. Well when I did it, I had some savings, but did I I didn't really touch them because I can't because I kind of knew that I needed to make a success of it and I needed to earn some money.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

So I was also in a position where we weren't living hand to mouth, we weren't living beyond our means, so our general life expenditure was manageable. My wife was still oh she's part-time then, um, but you know, that was coming in anyway, so you could almost buy, so to speak, on hers, let alone what the vibrant brought in. So, but I don't I don't recall thinking right, I need to have this much money. It was more of a I'm gonna do this, yeah, and I'll be alright. But I don't, but yeah, it was uh, but I think you're right, because I knew I could always go and get a job, and I know I can, yeah, it wasn't that big a risk, but it still was.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

So we've obviously talked about how you went from capital to the change into the business. Do you want to for the listeners? Do you want to give us a bit more information about the company that that you now run?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, yeah. So so the idea was for my my brother and two friends that I was friends with, but they were my brother's friends, so to speak. They were all about launching this, so I was the fourth amigo. Um, and so four of us came together to apply to the FCA. So we are a financial planning and investment management business. Four of us came together, four independent shareholders, directors, owners of the business. And the point was that those three had experience and clients from past lives, and the idea was that they could get going and I can just come in and hopefully do it. Um, so we look after 251 families, I think, now as we've got so husbands and wives typically, and and it's weird to think about it, but a quarter of a billion, just over a million of assets that we look after, so a lot of money, and every day you go in and you see it, you kind of get a bit numb to the sheer amount of money that is. So we look after a lot of people's pension, savings, you know, ISIS, all that sort of stuff, and as we were saying earlier, it's helping people plan for the future. It's all very good having X amount of money, but what are you gonna do? When are you gonna do it? What do you want to do, more importantly? Um, so now we're a team of nine, um, six years in and loving it. I I we can might talk about employment and whether I would be again, but I yeah, I love it. I love what I do, and I think the biggest difference I was thinking about on the way here was genuinely feel like I'm helping now. Whereas back in Capita and Tesco and whatever, it was always very corporate, you're helping ultimately shareholders, uh, and that's it. And you are so to speak in a back room somewhere on Excel, yeah, and that's what you're doing, you're helping that someone, yeah, yeah. You're just uh a cog in the machine. Absolutely a tiny cog in a massive machine. Whereas now, I mean people seeing people every day and helping, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

And I I think um I think that's more beneficial, you know, for the long term, for you as a person and for your for your company, um, to have that view that you're helping people rather than it's all about the money. Yeah, um, yes, money's great, but if you look at it from a I'm gonna help this person, that person, and help them plan, I don't want to get all woo-woo, but yeah, you need to start, you need to think long term, I think, and it's kind of so I I I genuinely love it.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I guess as thinking back, I went from like I said, you know, past the exams, great. Now what? Like what what do I do? And that was really quite hard. Um, but looking back, I'm so so happy. I'm so grateful as well to the other guys that you know sort of let me in. Yeah, uh, we all have our little hats in the business, as you guys will know as well. There's lots of hats to wear, but because there's now five of us that run and own the business, we can share the burden, you know. I'll do that bit, e.g., finances. So I'm still an accountant, I still do our month end books and all that sort of stuff. Um, but you know, there's some compliance and there's sales and marketing, and there's the investment side, so everyone's got their little thing, little thing to do, yeah, and it complements each other, yeah, and it makes a stronger business, I think. But there's lots of businesses like ours that are solo people, and that's fine, but we've got the capacity and breadth that maybe others don't.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

So a couple of episodes ago we talked about identity, um Neil is an accountant, me as an accountant, you as the athlete and sports, yeah, uh sports therapist. When when you stepped out of your role at Capita and then moved into the not self-port, into like you know, work for yourself, yeah. Did you struggle with that at all? Or you know, I know for example, when I came out, I really struggled with not working nine to five. Um because it it's a very different mindset.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, I don't I don't remember struggling with it as such because it was like go, go, go, go, you know, yeah, because we I was with those other three, yeah, and there's an element of right, guys, let's just go, you know, and I was the newbie having to what do I do, how do I do it, where do I get clients, you know. So I was kind of running at it, and I wasn't really thinking about how it was. I don't think I was so caught up in the what right, what have I got to do? Because those guys could go off and effectively try and get clients from the past. I didn't have that, yeah. So it's like, well, I don't even know what to do, where you know, so I don't it was kind of like just go. I don't think I you know, I do distinctly remember messaging over a weekend going, I actually don't mind working because it doesn't feel like um so yeah, it's almost a purpose, isn't it? Like you know, yeah, and it was for the the great good, yeah, yeah. Like it was because we were all benefit long term, yeah. And I felt probably a lot of pressure though to get on and do something because I was not I didn't have any, couldn't bring any clients in. Yeah. So I was like, what do I do? So but now it's interesting though, I think now we've become a little bit, little bit more corporate because there's a team, uh, we've got a big established client base, yada yada, and a proper, proper business that does need stuff doing, you know, board meetings every month. We have HR meetings, blah blah blah, all that stuff. Well obviously on a tiny scale, but it is does require some structure and you know that sort of stuff. So there's an element of I almost now think I do work sort of. Eight to five, but I don't go in for eight, it's more of a mindset of I'm almost that's my working day, yeah. But in the evening, I will do the books because I still quite like it. But I like it because it's ours, yeah, yeah. You know, I like to know right, what are we spending on that? Why is that is that going up? What do we do about that? And you know, I'm really, really invested in it, palm the pun, because it's our future, so I want to know, yeah, and I and to be honest, it's quite easy. Like I can do it. I don't we could outsource it and I could do not do that in the evening, but I don't don't mind it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Always retain that element of control, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, an oversight of your of what's yours, really.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah, which is uh and I do like a bad thing, but I you know we have proper accountants, if I call it that, that do our accounts and the audit and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I do the do, but they do the technical stuff.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

Now that now that you've kind of established yourselves as a as a business, so you say six years, is it yeah, just past six years? Yeah, have you found like in that six years? Obviously, like you said, when you first started, it was go, go, go, and everything was kind of like all guns uh ablazing. Yeah, have you found now that you've got to a level where, like you said, you've got an established base of of clients and you've got uh things have sort of settled into how the business is run. Do you find that you become complacent from time to time that things are, or is there always that drive to constantly do more?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Er, it's probably a bit of both. I think I think because there's five of us that run it, there's an element of someone's hot and cold on whether it's winning new clients, whether it's something going on at home, or you know, Adrian had his second child last year, and unfortunately his dad passed away last year. So he had some big life events, which meant that he needed to take time out of the business, which meant that you know we still can crack on. So it's not a hot and cold thing, but um, and it's certainly not complacency, but there are times when things change, but we go away every year minimum once as a team, as a as a leadership team, to go, what's the future? What are we doing? What do each of us want, and how's it looking? And that is sometimes a bit of a reset to go, what are we doing? What is the plan? Yeah, and it doesn't mean that is the plan, but where are we? You know, we're now six years on. How's things changing? And you know, where do we want to go? Yeah. Um, but but there's there's there's still a drive, still an ambition because we've still got capacity, we still want to grow, um, but not work every hour. It's that balance, yeah, you know, between whether it's income, time with the family, all those things you want to balance. So I don't think we've become complacent at all because we've still got targets as a business, targets as individuals, uh, so we're really driven. Yeah. But there's a level of actually the income's coming in, you don't need to be compared to myself to six years ago, which is pretty much where we started. Uh it's it's very different in a really good way.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

As as the five five directors? Yeah. What sort of ages are the other people in the business? Are they similar age to you? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So my brother's the youngest, four is he, forty-three. Yeah. Oh, anyway, near enough. The oldest is I think 47.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Okay, so in that middle age.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, but for our industry, for example, that's actually pretty young. Yeah. And particularly for the owners of a business, you often you might be an employee. But yeah, so we're all kind of similar. Most of us have got families, so there's levels of symmetry, yeah. But again, we owe to a way to reset to go, well, what do you want to do? You know, Adrian, for example, was married a Brazilian lady, they might go to Brazil for a few months a year one day. Don't know. Yeah, it's all this sort of stuff. Um, but it generally, age-wise, quite similar, and mindset quite similar, yeah. Which helps, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Um, as opposed to the you know, one might be 60 and wants to finish and we, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Um did you all have the same motivations to step away from your employed roles and do your you know, yeah. And what were those motivations for you?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Uh I think yes, we do, because we all worked in big corporates. Those guys worked in smaller corporates than we have, yeah. Um, but they were still big, and it was because those businesses had gone from even capital had once started small and become a Goliath, they had worked in similar, um, much smaller and then became much bigger. And if I think we all got a bit frustrated with the corporateness, the bureaucracy, the leadership teams that are going that way, and maybe for their shareholders rather than employees. Yeah, culture generally was getting maybe worse, worse might be the right word, but not better. So there were various things that meant it was like, all right, we can do this. That's what they certainly thought, and I was a bit like, well, I I'm not loving this, despite what it allows me and my family to do. Uh, so I think it was all getting out of the corporate world, doing it our way, it doesn't mean it's better, it's just our way, yeah. And we have control exactly, yeah. The ability, whilst there's five of us, you know, there's a consensus there ultimately about decisions, um, so we can make the decisions rather than who's gonna make the decision. Do we agree with the decision? Um, so yeah, having the control and our you know, we can to your point, we could go, this is alright, isn't it? And sit back a bit, yeah. But we're not, but you could make that decision to go actually we're good here, yeah. Um, which is nice, nice to have that.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And do you think that's a bit of an underlying look? There's an underlying thing where because you're helping people, that would you say that that's what drives you now?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Um yeah, yeah, it it is, um, with the caveat that we still want to grow our business. Yeah, yeah. And you know, as I said earlier as well, we want to grow your business, you're gonna help more people, yeah. Ultimately, that's that's but what I don't want to do is help too many. And I mean that in the nicest way that I if I had if we had a thousand families, yeah, I wouldn't be sat here, yeah, because I couldn't. Yeah, yeah. Whereas we can manage our workflow and time and help nice people rather than everyone.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Okay, so that's quite an interesting point then. So you said obviously where you're at at the moment it's great, but you're looking to build. What would be that finite? You know, would there be a point where you go actually this is now too much? And you potentially would step away if the business, the other four were like, we want to keep driving and driving and driving, and you were like, Well, actually, this isn't what I signed up for, kind of thing. This isn't what my perception of the business was. Would you kind of go right? I think it's time for me to move away from that.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

We've we've set target stroke limits of who we get how many we're gonna look after, fam. Yes, so rather than just keep going, it's like, right, I've got capacity or what we've deemed capacity, I'm not gonna take any more clients on, and therefore the others can, but uh, there's a point at which that all fills up theoretically. Uh so but for now it's fine, but would I I mean this is again why we have those away weekends or days, because like well, what what do you want to do? Do you want to keep gunning? Yeah, or are you happy, or do you want to stop? What what? Because unless we know and talk about it, then we don't. Yeah, and it might be that something's happened, or I mean we would know, but there might be something coming that we don't know about, or someone's just going actually, I've had it, I've had enough. So we and hence why we do those, yeah, because we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

I think that's good that you have that periodic review from a personal perspective. Um and I think people individually, which is what we talk about the pod, that people should be doing that, yeah, you know, rather than saying, well, okay, I I'm gonna go for that this next job uh next year. But actually, do I really you know what is that gonna give what's that gonna give me? Do I actually really want to do that? Or am I happy where I am? Yeah, um or am I not happy where I am?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's got to be open and honest, yeah, because yeah, this is our business, but we've all got to enjoy it. Uh not every day, not every day, but you've got to enjoy it, and we've got to have an understanding of where we're all want to go personally, because if it is say Adrian wants to go and live in Brazil, say, all right, cool. How do we facilitate it? What does that mean? Does it mean he exits? Does it mean what? Yeah, um, so yeah, and we've got to be honest about it and understand it rather than just go, yeah, we'll wait till we're you know in our 50s and then go, oh right. Because we can't do that. Well, we could, sorry. Yeah, but that's that's not how we're geared. Um, we don't want to wait and find out. Um, so yeah, it's we do regularly review it. Like I said, board meetings every month, so there's a level of rigour, but those away days allow us to sit back and go, right, let's have a chat.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Um, I think that's it's a really good point that you say that you have it kind of as an away day, so you're out the office and it's it's you know, somewhere a different environment. Yeah, and I think that's something that we've discovered from doing this podcast, is it's almost kind of like a time for us to reflect when you're having these conversations that you go, actually, do I give myself that time to think about doing different things? Yeah, and that's when you speak when I speak to other people who are still in their jobs or you know, they're they're stuck, I wouldn't say stuck in a career, but they're kind of they're just doing constantly the same thing, yeah. They probably haven't got that time to actually step away, or they have, but they don't make it, and that's kind of what we want to do through this podcast is make people kind of think, you know, am I doing what I actually want to do, or is it just a process that I'm stuck in?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah, it's not it's not to say that we're encouraging people to just quit their job and become you know self-employed or do something on their own, because it's not for everyone, it's you know, it is hard, um, but more to encourage people to take the time to think about where they're at and whether they're happy. Um, yeah, and not so much that you know it's a crisis that you have to solve, but are you genuinely happy? Because life you only know is short. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to work in the onion layer thing somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

But it's a bit like my wife. My wife works in this NA, she works in NHS, she's been in there since she graduated, yeah. And and recently there's been some holiday issues, as in getting holidays approved, right? And she's now like this is starting to affect family life. So you're a bit like, well, are you happy doing that? Not just a holiday thing, but you know, a review of it, and she might do something different. But the good thing is there's no panic, we've got the time, but I don't want her sat here in 10 years' time going, uh we can afford that opportunity, but it needs to be a mindful one.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I think you've uh unconsciously um constructed the framework to be able to be able to do that as idea as you're doing or how because you give it you've got the opportunity to be able to do that, yeah. You know, with Lucy stepping away, yeah, potentially stepping away and coming to work with you, you've got those options, whereas uh a lot of people either are so stuck in the doing, like you're saying, that they don't think that they've got the time to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Or or whether it's financial security or whatever. Yeah, um, I actually feel now it's a bit weird when you go to a bank as a self-employed person or a business owner and they always see you as more risky. I'm like, well, I've got the destiny in my hands, yeah, so to speak. And therefore, why wouldn't you know anyway? Yeah, but therefore, if you believe your business on your own is successful, then your partner can hopefully take a step if that's appropriate. Yeah, um, but yeah, it that creating that position uh is great, but it's not through chance, is it? It's because we've worked hard and we've made decisions um to well, whether you knew that was going to happen, but you've made those decisions to then create that space.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Yeah, um, I think that was a point that that sort of um was brought up in the last podcast with uh Jonathan was that I think I said something like we're in a fortunate position or we're lucky to be in this situation, and he kind of stopped us and said, Alright, it's not luck, you know, you've got here intentionally by the actions that you've taken. And that was for me, I was kind of like, you're right actually, but I don't know if it's a British thing to kind of play down you know your own success or how you've you've got to where you are, yeah. But that's something that I do sort of I reflected on. I was kind of like, okay, you know, it's not by chance that I've got here and that we you know we're in these situations, it's because we have always had that drive, whether it's underlying or on the surface for people to see to achieve a lifestyle that that I wanted outside of what you know maybe I was doing at the time, yeah. Um and I think that's it's like it's an interesting thing for for me to to reflect on on how you know what I'm doing with my time and yeah, and how I sort of portray that to other people is like I don't want to be like in your face saying I can go to the gym every day and do this and do that, and but actually that's kind of the things that when I'm sat in the sauna at 12 o'clock every afternoon, people at work, I'm kind of like, well, this is quite nice, isn't it? Everyone else is sat in an office. But yeah, yeah, it's it's a I don't know, it's kind of a weird British thing. I don't know if it's a British thing or if it's bigger, but we kind of play down your own success that you've worked really hard to get.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

I absolutely agree, and it's not luck. I mean, there's elements maybe, yeah, but it's not luck, it's hard work and it's making decision taking decisions rather than uh I'll wait another year or I'll find another job or whatever, just get on with it.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yeah, uh, because time's moved so fast, I don't know. I know you you probably agree, but once you've got kids and time is absolutely flying by for me, anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I mean, just for the fact that we've actually been out of employment for almost 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I mean that that's mad in itself. But there is if you want to go and do something, which we've said before, yeah, there's no harm in trying it. Yeah, you've got to try it, otherwise you'll get to 70, 80 and you'll think, hmm, what if I've done that?

SPEAKER_04 36:35

And like we've said, there is more opportunity now with relaxed working conditions and things like that since Covid, yeah, that people, you know, with the bike boxes and things like that that you were able to do because you're at home all the time. So um it's yeah, it's definitely those opportunities are out there for people just to have a try at least, you know, alongside what they're doing on a day-to-day basis.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Yeah, yeah. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yeah, um, so just what what I wanted to touch on um you mentioned about financial security, um, and we've talked about Loss's um pension plan for the future, winning the lottery. Winning the lottery and then not one yet. A few times, but not a huge amount. But you know, we get to a certain point in life uh where you could be bumbling along in your in your job, your company's paying into your pension plan, or not, or you get you know, you get to a certain or you're self-employed, you actually haven't started a pension yet. Yeah. And you kind of you get to your four, you hit 40 and you think, shit. Yeah. What the bloody hell am I gonna do when I well you know people don't look far enough into the future to say what do I what am I gonna do when I'm 60 and I can't work or I don't want to work? Yeah. Um in your field, do you encounter people that are kind of like that? Or are they more established? And kind of what advice would you give to people that perhaps wake up in the morning and think, yeah, I I guess so.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

We typically work with wealthier people, we just do, and we are therefore in a bit of a bubble. Yeah, because I deal with wealthier people all the time, and you kind of forget they are probably the minority, yeah, certainly not the majority. Um, but even then they might have amassed, you know. I've got a prospective client on Friday, they're multimillionaires, but they've got their kind not by chance, again, it's not look, it's not chance, they've just built this stuff, and they're like, now what? So despite having lots of assets and money, they still don't know what to do, let alone people who don't have it.

SPEAKER_06 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Um, so we deal with people who do have that asset or money, don't know what to do. Maybe they've worked in five careers and different, you know, five pensions and that sort of stuff. Um, but so we can still help them, and we do, but for the more of the majority of the population, I think there's um it's a it's lots of factors, but social media, I dare say, and the look what I'm doing, look where I'm going, look what I've got. Millionaires we're all not all, a lot of us are guilty of you. You can go and get a car on PCP, look at my new flashcard. Yeah, um, no one sees what you've got saved, no one's really, yeah. Uh, or you've got no mortgage. I mean, uh one of my clients last month paid off their mortgage, they're in their 40s, and they're loving it. And I'm loving it for them. Yeah, now it's then thou what? But no one is seeing that success, it's not success per se, but no one sees that whereas they see the car, the holidays. So I think there's too many people uh who just live and I I get the living for now and the whether it is for Instagram or not, but there's a lot of the look what I'm doing, where I'm going, what I've got, rather than right, when I'm 60 or 70, can I do that then or not? Yeah, yeah. Because it's really hard to not have the self, sorry, uh instant gratification of the holiday, the car, the whatever, yeah, rather than thinking, right, if I don't buy that thing or go there, if I save an extra grand, then I can do that when I'm 70 or 60. Yeah. So most people, I sorry, most, a lot of people are focused on now and you know, giving the kids whatever, um, rather than actually what about me? What about my so often with even with my clients who have might have kids similar to our ages or or whatever, I'm like, look, you've got to look after yourselves, you've got to think, I mean, be a bit selfish. Yeah, you know, people think I've got to save my kids. Well, yeah, but you know, if you're okay, they'll be okay, yeah, rather than putting it into their junior ISIS or whatever, and at the detriment to yours. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's a few things about just trying to think long term, it's quite hard, and just think I'll really love myself when I put a little bit more. I guess generally the principle of starting and doing, so set up a monthly standing order direct debit to an ICE, a savings pot, a pension, just start. Yeah, and it doesn't matter how well it does matter, but start and have it regular coming at like if you're employed, I used to um get a pay rise, put an extra percent into my pension because if I'm okay with what I've got, I don't need another one percent. Yeah, so it's little tweaks that can help. As business owners, self-employed people, it's can be really hard because well, it depends on your business and how cash flow is, perhaps, and can you afford to give a grand a month to your pension or whatever, rather than oh who's gonna pay me this month? So I get that's hard, but again, another tip I suppose would be whilst most people don't think about financial years, e.g., tax year, if you get to March and you've got some money, sat, whether it's for whatever reason, think okay, how's this year gone? Could I do something with it for my long term? And just try and think, oh, you know, when I'm X years older, ah, thanks. I'm glad I did it. And I guess pensions, whilst they're not sexy and exciting, when you get there, you know, the good thing is for pensions, I guess the point there is they're locked away for most people. You know, you can't touch it till you're 57 or whatever plus. So if you can put some money away, you can't you can't go and buy the car with it yet. So it's trying to think long term and trying to delay some of that gratification because I do worry, I really do, about people who are gonna get to 60s, can't work, don't want to work, and they're waiting for the state pension, for example, yeah. It's it's not gonna be enough. But people think I'll be alright.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

I think um I think your point about social media and what you what people see as portrayed as great and you know success is an image of success. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's not a reality and you've got people trading up their lifestyle, you get a few extra grand on your on your paycheck in a year, and oh I'm gonna I'm gonna get that BMW or that Audi. Whereas if you're happy driving your Rena 5 or whatever it is, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh you know, what's the need to what's the need to trade up?

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Um well that's it, isn't it? It is it's it's the want versus the need. And we've had that conversation as well, yeah. You know, relevant to cars is that I don't need another car, yeah, but I like cars. Yeah. So you find yourself looking, going, oh, you know, I could get one of those, or but you don't need it. So I've got, I suppose, hopefully I've got my sensible hat on at most of the time, and you kind of just go, okay, that's fine, I'm not gonna get it. But you do kind of like it, you go through those processes on and like at different times, and you can just Because there is it's thrown in your face all the time. So you kind of you know actually I could afford to go and get a little sports car, but I don't need to. So and then you sort of make those decisions. But some people go the other way and get a sports car, and maybe that makes them feel better as well. But how does that benefit you in the future?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Here's a dilemma that I've got at the minute. Um so my my watch, my Apple Watch is on the blink. Um so I need a new watch. But I've looked at another smart watch and I'm thinking, well, you pay 300 quid or whatever it is, 500 quid for a watch now, and then the battery shit, uh, and in five years or however old this is, I'm gonna have to buy another one. It just feels like money down the drain to me. Um a bit like a car. So I started looking at fancy watches. Like, I want to watch that one tells a time, yeah, and two, if I is almost an investment, and I will hold its value, yeah. But then it's oyster. That's exactly what I was looking at this morning. But you know, why you know every three or four years I'm gonna have to spend 500 quid or whatever on a watch.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah, so fitbit, yeah, I don't know why it's it's just basically steps and exercise counting, nothing more. It doesn't do anything like an Apple Watch, really. It does a bit more, and then just an old school watch that I've had now for I don't know, 10 years, 15 years. Yeah, and yeah, so my my view is I like this because I like tracking and all that sort of stuff. Not obsessed, but I like it, yeah. Or is that we'll keep going. So that's how that's how I've straddled that. So I haven't gone down the Apple Watch route, partly because of that, and I can't be bothered to charge every day.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Oh, it's annoying. Uh twice a day after charges bloody a week.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

So 64% still. This lasts a week.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

A week, it's really good. Uh but it's not not particularly pretty and great as uh as anything else, but it does what I want. So yeah, I don't disagree with the you know, this will this is this keep going. Yeah, so or we're we have vitality at work because we pay for it and all that, and then you get a free Apple Watch.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

It's not free anymore. Is it not? No, you have to pay 180 quid. Oh this one was free. Oh well, I haven't done that either. Yeah, you have to contribute to it. Which is what I was thinking about don't really want to sell 180 quid Apple watch that I'm gonna have to replace again in two or three years' time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

But again, yeah, that's another point. If I um to sort of us as business owners as well, every time we do something for us and our business, I'm like, as clients, have you thought about this? So like my car through my business, my phones through my business, everything I can. So again, it's just trying to make use of stuff, yeah. Um, but that's another area people don't but you can't maybe even buy a watch. HMRC might not be as a personal trainer, and you probably could argue it's a bit of an expense, but likes, likes to be a lot of work scheme.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about getting a bike to deliver my friend like in the hope of a get myself a nice gravel bike in a meadow.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

Just ruin all the air and dynamics and the ends in the bike, just like a basket on the front with some French loaves in it. Potentially get away with that.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Uh removable basket. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, um, so let's yeah, stop talking about bikes. What time wise? I mean, uh I don't know. Uh 45 minutes or so, 40 minutes. Um so yeah, probably probably about time to wrap up wrapping up. But what um what what what does the future hold for Neil and uh WKM? You know, you kind of I've really touched on business and KPIs and things like that already, but can you kind of where do you see yourself in ten years' time now? Do you think you're still working in uh your business or kind of what's is there an end goal? There is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

At the outset we said that's so basically a bit to your point earlier, Lost about ages, it was when age 60, because he was the oldest of the four, but he's now not the oldest of the five. Um when he was sixty was the end, the end, not not beyond. And it's then if it's earlier, it's earlier. Um so that was is still the end point, but if it doesn't feel like work, yeah, quite, and this is it. This is actually came up last week at our board meetings like you know, where are how are we doing? How you know it wasn't the off-site thing, but it was actually what are we doing, what is the plan still? And it might not be that, it might not be because it's not set in stone anyway, yeah. But um uh the goal is that we won't be doing it in our 60s. We might run it, we might be stepping back and just doing a bit, yeah. Um, but that's our choice ultimately. Yeah, but the in 10 years, I I'll still be doing it because my youngest will just be 18, so still be at home, obviously still be at home. Uh maybe go to uni, I don't know, we'll see. But so I guess my life still is gonna be somewhat surrounded by kids or adults then, but um, so still supporting them, so I can't just go and offload to wherever. So I and I yeah, to your point, hopefully I'll still be enjoying it. Yeah, in which case I I guess it coming back to the planning and the structure of the be the team, do we have the team that does most of it and we do less of it? Yeah, I think that's probably what we'll do.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Because uh we all the the modern societies you're always working towards retirement, kicking back and doing nothing. Yeah, but uh when I when I spoke to Gemma about this, my wife, um she said, Well, if you enjoy what you do, why why would you retire from it?

SPEAKER_05 50:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

I think the other thing as well is that that again we've touched on is that if you can do the things that you like doing around the work, so like me, I'm in a position where I can do most of the things that I enjoy doing, yeah. Activities and and holidays and things now that they fit like work fits around life now. So if that continues, why does it need to change?

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I deal with it almost every week with clients. What are you gonna do? Yeah, what's next? You know, you you can stop. Well, now what? Yeah, what are you you know, and it's serious because people go from running hundred miles an hour if it's employment or their own business, and then right, what what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Yeah, particularly in winter, and and I've you know I've sort of seen that first hand with my dad. Yeah, he he wanted to retire at 50, worked for Texaco, got to a very high position in the company, and was like, right, I'm done, I can retire, I've gonna get a nice pension, etc. etc. A year later, he was I need to go back to work, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because yes, he had the finance to do outside of work what he wanted to do, but he didn't really know what that was because he'd been in work mode for so long. Yeah, whereas we're in a position where we're almost sort of out of that work mode, yeah. Work is to facilitate the lifestyle that we've got now, yeah. And and so, yeah, it's interesting for people that don't make that shift until they finish work. It's like the mindset is needs some changing as well as the the lifestyle, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Because people talk about we talk about objectives all the time, that's all we talk about, really. Okay, okay, you so what what is it? You know, I'm gonna retire at 60, great, then what? To do what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

And it's it's it's almost an arbitrary point in the you know, lying in the sand. So that's what I'm working towards. Yeah, and it's such a big thing. I'm gonna get 60 and I'm gonna retire.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Yeah, and I think it is it's almost a historical thing as well, because to our points earlier, you could keep doing something for longer because of social media. Oh, sorry, how you deliver it, you work from home more, whatever, depending on what you do, of course. Um, so you've maybe got more chance to elongate but do less hours or whatever, rather than the old you've hit 60, you're out. It's not like that anymore, but it's still a bit of a psychological thing that that is that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I I hope in 10 years, well I'll be in my mid-50s, I think. Uh that I'll probably still be doing this to adjust to how many hours and what I'll be doing, I don't know, but I think I'll still be doing it because I hopefully still love it. Yeah, but I don't want to be doing any more hours, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

My next old neighbour is a he's a bailiff, he has his own um recovery company, and he always says that he wants to retire. But I I was talking to his his mother-in-law, she said he's never gonna retire. Yeah, he scaled back, I think he does three days a week. Um I had a conversation with him and I said, Well, what are you gonna do with your company? Um and he he works with his daughter today, he may take it on. But ultimately he will step away. I think it's kind of this is what I can't expect to do. He'll step away, he'll still be there for advice and take a pension out of it or you know whatever. But ultimately he'll he'll he'll just stop, but he'll still be involved in it to some to some degree.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah, I think if you can my dad worked as I think he stopped now. Uh I think uh he's wound up his company, but that way, but he could not stop, as in just he didn't necessarily love it, he was just ingrained and kept going. Yeah, COVID was a useful change, and he went down to the number of days, and I think that way is a good way of doing it. So if I could in say in 50s go, right, I am gonna stop, and I'm gonna slowly reduce my days and hours and all that, that sounds pretty good. Yeah, quite what then? I don't know either.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, you're not like you're not alone, like we said, yeah. People that and and from the people you work with, yeah, you know, they're in that situation. And I've got I've got a client who's in a similar situation, runs his own business, it's very successful, and actually continues to grow at a time where he you know in his sort of forethought would be, oh, this is where I'll wind things down and I'll start you know stepping away from the business potentially. But because of the way things are going and how much he's loving the fact that it's continued, right? He doesn't see that end in sight at all now. It's kind of like, well, what would I do if I you know and and and the only thing that potentially would would change that is the restrictions that government put on whether or not when he sells that business, how much can he give to his kids and all that sort of stuff, that yeah, actually it becomes better to financially to think about how to to step away and and work it out from that perspective rather than to hand a business over that might actually bankrupt his kids, even though it's a multi-million pound business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um there's those sort of difficult decisions that that people have to make as well.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Yeah, absolutely. That point about structures and planning, it's about to pl and thinking rather than oh, I'm 16 now. What? It's what am I gonna do? It's really serious, so yeah, a lot of people don't, and there's also an identity, isn't it? To working or you're having a business, yeah. Like, oh what do you do? That's my thing. I'm retired, right? Yeah, I don't know, yeah. So there's a lot of um focus on that, I think, as well. What are you after that?

SPEAKER_04 55:52

Yeah, so yeah, and that's and again, we sort of touched on that last podcast, didn't we? In that we're at an age now where you can almost change your identity still, you know. The guy we interviewed last time, Jonathan, he was Jonathan the footballer, you know, he'd been a semi-professional football player, um, all of his life and work revolved around football until it didn't, yeah, yeah. And then, well, what do I do now? Yeah, yeah, but at our age you can still make that transition, and and he was a little bit younger as well. But then, like you say, when you get to to 60, because you kind of think like we've been conditioned to think we're 60 is old, you know, that's yeah, but it's not old, not at all, and you know, and because the positions that we've put ourselves into, you can keep yourself fitter, you can you live a healthier lifestyle because you're not stressed and work to the grindstone all the time. Yeah, that getting to 60 and considering to still work doesn't seem like an issue so much as it might do to someone who is kind of like, well, I work shifts, I do night shifts, I do this shift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to finish when I get to 60, because they're just like they're haggard almost through the the the lifestyle that they live until they think, well, it'll be a relief when I get to 60 and I'm done and I can stop working and then just live my life, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Yeah, yeah, and let alone having thought about the financial for that. There's one thing of what am I gonna do is then how can I afford it? Yeah, I'm gonna play golf all the time, I'm gonna unhobble these. Great, can you afford them?

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, so last question, yeah. I thought this was quite a good one. Yeah, so what would you say to someone sitting where we were at a desk in capita in the middle of month end, tearing the hair out, tearing the hair out, or thinking there's got to be something else out there.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Um yeah, I I guess uh there is there is something else, and not being I guess it's like we said early, we created a position where you can go and do something else, you can always get another job. Yeah, it's not being too afraid, you don't have to be a slave to the wage or whatever. I mean you might be, but not there or not there. Yeah, um, I think over the recent years we've generally society's been a bit more amenable to people moving jobs, and it's not like if your CV's got five employers on, it's not like a bad thing per se. Might be five in a year, but five over 20 years is fine. So there's a bit more of an acceptance of people moving around and not being afraid because yeah, but then there's you know, the old alley was a job for life, wasn't it? You'd stay somewhere and just work, whereas now you can. Um so I would be encouraging people to to move and change and not be afraid. I did a talk to a school recently on the talk, but uh here's what I've done. And my point was I've changed from that to that to that. Uh did I ever see that? I d no. But don't be afraid, yeah, yeah. Um and uh you don't want to regret, yeah, yeah. I've got no regrets. Um I don't want to get 60 and go, oh yeah, wish I'd have done that, yeah, we should have tried.

SPEAKER_04 59:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Oh, a lot we've always we've always said there's lots of different paths that you can take. Um you don't have to follow the traditional path. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

But the good thing is just sharing like this, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:17

And even just making the decision to change, even if that isn't a success itself, it might lead you to what is the success.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

Yeah. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Cool. On that note, I think uh done.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Yeah. Cool. Thanks very much for coming in, Neil. You're welcome, thanks for having me. Good talking. A pleasure, is it? Some good advice for our listeners. Yeah, it's not advice.

SPEAKER_04 59:43

Yeah, it will come in Monday. Maybe on my 60th birthday.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Thank you.