NEXTepisode S01E02: Christina Grazzotti, on Real Tradeoffs Behind Decarbonized Hydrogen

Hydrogen is changing from a quiet refinery utility to a frontline decarbonization tool, and the biggest shift is how we make it. 

In episode 2 of NEXTepisode, host Mark Sleijser sits down with Christina Grazzotti, Head of Technology Solutions at KT Tech, to map the real choices behind low‑carbon hydrogen: modernized SMR with carbon capture, autothermal reforming that moves heat inside the reactor, catalytic partial oxidation that eliminates furnaces, and an electrified reformer that runs on clean power. If you have ever wondered when to choose SMR vs ATR vs CPO, this conversation gives you clear capacity ranges, carbon intensity impacts, and the project realities that decide the winner.

#Hydrogen #Decarbonization #NEXTCHEM #MAIRE

Transcript

Welcome And Topic Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Next episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Right, welcome everybody to a new edition of next episode: the podcast that talks about sustainable technology solutions. Today we're going to talk about uh hydrogen, which is the uh most abundant element in the universe, also very simple H2. Um, and it's a crucial uh element, a crucial molecule uh to decarbonize the industry.

Guest Background In Hydrogen

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Um, I'm definitely not an expert in this field, so uh I've asked uh Christina Grazzotti uh to join us. Welcome, Christina. Thank you. You are the um head of technology solutions at KT Tech. Can you maybe share a bit about your background before we dive into the hydrogen world?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yeah, okay. Thank you, Mark. And um I'm the head of technology solutions in KTTech, and uh I can I'm here invited to speak about hydrogen, I think because uh I'm almost spent all my career uh on the hydrogen field and technologies. Um I started working almost 30 years ago in KTI at the time. My background, educational background, is chemical engineering, but I started in KTI, and uh most of this period has been spent on the technology relevant to hydrogen. Okay. And now I'm responsible for all the technology that are part of uh uh the uh portfolio in KT Tech that one is one of the companies of Nextcan Group. Okay, and uh most of this technology are relevant to hydrogen. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Um that's a

From Grey Hydrogen To Low Carbon

SPEAKER_01 2:02

that's a good start. So um hydrogen, I think, is uh oh, has been around here, uh comes uh naturally in the in the sun.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Uh I think on Earth it's um more difficult to expect. Um if I'm uh correct, it comes from natural gas and then it's it's reformed.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Exactly. I think we've um let's say industry is a uh is a uh decades old uh technology, so uh hydrogen has been made for a very long time.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Uh of course, with the transition uh towards renewable energies, I think we see a shift towards more low carbon hydrogen.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Um how does that work? What what's the other different technologies, or is it the same technology that has been adapted, or what what what are the flavors of let's say hydrogen technologies?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, in in in the time in this period, the hydrogen usage has been switched remain mainly as a decarb a desulfurization agent in the refinery, or use for producing from petrol petrol, I mean from uh heavier radiocarbon, smaller hydrocarbon. Now it's more moved to the decarbonisation or a vector uh an energy source, an

Modernizing SMR And Blue Hydrogen

SPEAKER_02 3:26

energy vector really, because it's not a source of energy for uh automotive. Okay, so the hydrogen uh let's say usage over the time over this period when in my career has been changed. And now for sure um and the technology that are linked to hydrogen production uh has followed this uh also this path. Because in the in the beginning, at the original, when I started to work, there was mainly what now is named grey hydrogen, means production of hydrogen from hydrocarbon using steam over a catalyst bed. Um but there was no, let's say, specific focus on the amount of uh CO2 that was produced by this process because this is an endothermic reaction, means that need the heat from external sources to take place over this catalyst. And this was performed using a furnaces that is this T-metrefonic furnaces, and means that there are flames inside there are burners that uh are burning uh fuel gas or methane, and this produces CO2, and this CO2 through the stock is emitted to the atmosphere. At that time, there was no, I mean nobody took care about this. Um and the what was important is to produce hydrogen for needs in the refinery or in the chemical industry. Okay. Um then now there is a new path, new process that are asking to produce hydrogen, but looking at the a techno technologies or solutions that reduce the CO2 emitted to the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

So that's an adaption of the steam methane reforming, or is it something completely new?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Uh both. I mean, the the steam reformer solution, the SMR, can be adapted to reduce the amount of CO2. Okay. I mean, for example, can be uh designed in order to burn partially or totally hydrogen, for example. So produce more hydrogen that is sent back to the furnaces, and this will reduce the CO2 because when you burn hydrogen you produce water and not CO2, or can be adapted in order to achieve what is named blue hydrogen by removing the CO2 and collecting this to be stored in specific areas. This is the way that normally is applied to decarbonize the process. So capture the CO2 and let's say store it in underground somewhere. So this makes this process and the product as well, the hydrogen, blue. So this is the same SMR that is modified to produce this.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

It's a modern SMR.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Modern SMR. Or we can use different technology that apply different concepts.

ATR And CPO: Integrated Heat Concepts

SPEAKER_02 6:52

One is the ATR, autothermal reforming, and the other one is the CPO, that is catalytic partial oxidation. There are two technologies that are part of our portfolio.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

And these are a sort of um, I mean, different concept because the the heat that is needed to have this reaction is not produced by this burner that are external, I mean, to the catalytic bed, but is something totally integrated. So the oxygen that is used in the ATR autothermal reforming is burning the hydrocarbon. And the heat that is provided by this reaction, I mean by this mixture, I mean, with within a flame, is the one that provided to this equipment in in which is also installed the catalyst bed, uh, enough heat to uh to produce uh hydrogen so to transform the hydrocarbon in hydrogen. What is the advantage? That there is no furnaces. There is this is a vessel. I mean, let's imagine as a vessel that needs also only a small um heater in front to pre-heat the mixture that is uh introduced in this vessel. So, starting from the SMR, uh we have a smaller heater in front, means we have less emission of CO2 to the atmosphere. The furthest step of decarbonisation, I mean reduction of CO2 is use the catalytic partial oxidation, the CPO, that is another technology part of our portfolio in which there is no burner. So, I mean the heat needed to have the reaction over the catalyst bed is produced by the contact, the mixture of oxygen and the hydrocarbons over a very active bed of catalyst that is auto-producing the heat needed to have this reaction. And this means that we don't need even the furnace in front to create this uh this

Capacity Windows And Technology Fit

SPEAKER_02 9:18

mixture, and this will reduce further the CO2 emission to the atmosphere. So, as you see, is a sort of step of improvement that can be done on the SMR modifying heat or changing totally the technology.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

It sounds like you're going to reduce or remove the furnace. So, does that also mean that the investment, the the the capex is reduced?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

As well. Um, depending and but there are other factors that are linked to the um the capacity. Okay, so because uh it's not this technology cannot be applying on complete range of uh of capacities, and so means that there are areas or uh segments of capacity application in which the the each technology is the best solution to be applied.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Can you give a range for each of the technologies? What sort of uh what what's the the max capacity?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

The the the CPO, the catalytic passion oxidation, is the solution we use uh to small up to medium size range, means uh generally up to 50,000 normal cubic meter per hour of hydrogen production or equivalent hydrogen production. Then there is the uh steam meta-reformer, the SMR, that can range for small capacity up to uh around 200,000, 200,000 normal cubic meter per hour. Okay, so it's feasible technically, but the best is uh 115,000 normal cubic meter per hour.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

150.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

1500 norma cubic meter per hour. And then for higher capacity is for sure the ATR, the the technology to be applied.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Is there a maximum to the ATR technology?

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Um really can be very big, also because the technology we apply is uh is uh um mainly tailored on that, having the possibility to uh increase a lot the production of hydrogen as a also as a front end because it's a typical technology solution to produce a syngas, because the syngas is really the result of the reaction I described before. Then this mixture of hydrogen, CO2, CO is uh uh purified to have only hydrogen at a very high purity, 99.999, whatever is needed. But this mixture, if it's not um, let's say uh purified to produce hydrogen, is the I mean the precursor, what is uh before other steps like production of ammonia or production of methanol. And for such a kind of product, generally the amount of singles to be produced is is is huge. So the ATR is the solution to be applied. Okay, so and can arrive uh up to six uh six hundred thousand normal cubic meter per hour, so a lot as a hydrogen equivalent.

Carbon Intensity And Tech Selection

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Okay, and then in terms of the let's say carbon intensity, of course, the steam ethereformer has got the biggest uh, especially if you don't have any carbon capture as a the the the higher carbon footprint, yes. Yes. So it sounds like is so the the CPO technology is the most blue but has a lower capacity, a lower max capacity. Yeah, but the what's the what's the difference between um let's say the CPO technology and the ATR because I think both can have the the carbon capture, both are in that in in that same low carbon direction.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Why would I choose if I have a uh what what's the the minimum capacity of the uh ATR technology?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Hey the ATR is uh is uh overlapping the SMR capacity, so becomes convenient uh at uh around 200,000 of a cubic meter.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

So it's really ranges overlap from CPO to SMR.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

To ATR, yes. And and the main difference in terms of carbon intensity between the CPO and the ATR is this furnaces in front. I mean, that for the CPO is not needed. So this makes the CPO solution uh um suitable when is needed a very, very, very low carbon intensity of the process.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And then um uh KT, KT Tech has done a lot of uh SMR plants uh so far. You've got I think 60, 70 reference plants.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

To what extent is it possible to revamp existing plants to be more sustainable to decrease the carbon intensity?

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah, it's always possible to decarbonize a grey hydrogen production plant. So uh because can be uh let's say uh introduced the uh carbon capture on the process or on the flue gases. Okay, but uh generally

Revamping Existing Plants And CCS

SPEAKER_02 14:41

this is something that can be done. Uh sometimes the the problem linked to that is that existing plants are on, let's say not on green field but on brown field. So is to add these units of the curve that provide this uh carbon capture require um some plot area to be available nearby to capture, for example, from the flue gas, and this is something sometime not easy. Uh so um it's feasible, can be done. We are doing we do this uh when is uh needed, but uh it may be not the not easy to perform.

Regional Trends In Decarbonization

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Do you see differences in um let's say regions where uh one region is more interested in decarbonising and another is more just focused on capacity, or is it is the the trend globally more or less the same?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

The trend is globally the same almost. Of course, Europe is the area where the decarbonisation is more uh let's say important, mainly uh to produce blue uh hydrogen, while in other countries where there is more uh let's say um field available, for example, the solution moving to the uh green is easier to do because there are lands available than in Europe. Um, but for sure Europe is where the solution of the cabinization is more uh requested at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Okay.

E‑Blue: Electrified SMR

SPEAKER_01 16:21

And then I think also um a different technology is the the e-blue, uh which I think we have not not talked about yet. Can you dive a bit deeper in in that part?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Yeah, right. The e-blue is what we can consider in some way the uh bridge between uh the uh blue and and and green hydrogen. Okay, because is is an SMR in which the external heat that is conventionally provided by fuel and and burners is provided by uh power by the electricity. So it's an electrified steam methane reformer that means this will not have any stock. And the solution, the process solution we have identified make it make possible uh a complete electrification of the process. And this, of course, when you have a green power source, this will make this uh even really let's say effective in terms of carbon intensity. Uh, this application has also a limit in capacity, at least within a single line, and that can be identified around 10,000 ohmacubic meter per hour, 10-15,000 ohmacubic meter per hour.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

So in its small small scale, but small scale, but very blue.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Uh yeah, absolutely. Also, because uh when you have maybe in such a capacity is really easy to apply when you have biogas, so means methane from biological source, uh this is perfect because at the end uh you will be totally neutral uh for based on CO2 emissions.

Downstream Uses: Ammonia And Urea

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Okay, so and then let's say downstream of the hydrogen, you've already touched briefly upon ammonia, but um what's the use of of hydrogen in in the sense what are the let's say the main outlets for for technology?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, so the hydrogen generally is is an utility within the refinery, so it's used for the desulfurization or process of hydrotreating of uh hydrocarb heavy hydrocarbon to produce smaller hydrocarbon. I mean uh and and this is the main usage in the uh refinery. Then uh there is the use of hydrogen to produce chemicals like ammonia, for example, and then ammonia can be used to produce um urea, because when, for example, when you have hydrogen and you want to make the hydrogen production blue, you have to capture the CO2. And one of the important integrations that we are doing also within NextCem group, because we have other company, uh part of the group that are taking care of ammonia and urea production, stomicarbon, and this the CO2 that is captured from the hydrogen, and the hydrogen is used to produce ammonia, the CO2 that is captured is uh used to produce the urea. Okay. So it's a totally integrated process end-to-end from the hydrogen production up to the uh urea.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Okay, so it's high hydrogen, ammonia, urea, and then even also nitrates, I think. And also nitrates. And then methanol, I think, also is a bit of a.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Then methanol also is the same because the uh all the process I describe, but all the technology I described, the SMR, CPO, ATR, and ESMR at least, uh the result of the reaction is uh what is named syngas. So it's a mixture of hydrogen, CO2,

Syngas To Methanol And Integration

SPEAKER_02 20:06

and CO, maybe, and some slip of methane. This this uh syngas to produce hydrogen needs to be purified. I mean the hydrogen needs to be separated by this physically separate by this. And uh, if not, this syngas is the precursor, is what is needed to produce methanol. And also as a part of our uh Nex, there is a company like GastContech that is the one that is uh leading the methanol production. So also in this case, we can provide a full uh I mean package, a full uh proposition uh to produce also methanol.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

And then we also have, of course, not part of NESCAM but part of Myra Group, also the the ENC business that can also build all of these technologies. So we really have the full integrated package.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

In fact, this is uh what we can do because now we we are technol a technology part, I mean the technology harm of Myra Group. Uh but of course we can um execute a project uh up to the execution, uh taking the advantage of having part of the Myra group also the company in in the ENC part, as uh KT and uh and technemount.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Okay, well, thank you so much. I think that gives a lot of let's say ammunition for uh also

Full-Stack Delivery And Closing

SPEAKER_01 21:33

for future episodes of this this podcast. A lot of uh a lot of topics to talk about uh ammonia urea, uh methanol integration, uh project development.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

I think we are an interesting group. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

So um uh like to thank you so much, uh Christina, for um for um sharing your your insights in in hydrogen. Uh it's much appreciated. Um, also a big thank you to our listeners. Uh, if you're interested. Interested in these types of podcasts, also on different technologies, please subscribe. We love to hear your feedback either via LinkedIn or in the comments on the platform that you listen to this podcast. Thank you so much, and I hope to hear you at the next episode. Thank you.