NEXTepisode S01E04: Luca Botti on rethinking waste as a resource

In this episode of NEXTepisode, we speak with Luca Botti, Circular Solutions expert at NEXTCHEM (MAIRE Group), about rethinking waste as a resource. From municipal solid waste to plastics and even CO₂, Luca explains how advanced technologies like gasification and pyrolysis are helping close the loop and bring materials back into the value chain.

We explore why “waste” is no longer the end of the story and how both industry and consumers can drive change. The takeaway: the technologies are ready — now it’s about scaling adoption and shifting mindsets.

#Sustainability #Decarbonization #NEXTCHEM #MAIRE

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All right, welcome everybody to the new edition of next episode. Today we're going to talk about circular solution with Luca Botti. Luca, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you again.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Yeah. So, Luca, you have a PhD in chemistry. You have been working with uh in the Boston Consultancy Group with a lot of experience in strategy, and now for about two years working in Nextcan on circular solutions since 2024. So I think a circular solution, I think the thing that comes to my mind to start with is well, a circular solution that's probably waste, but I imagine there's a lot more to it. So where do we start this conversation? If you would run into an old classmate uh in in uh in in a bar, say what are you doing? Uh I'm working a circular solution. What's that? How would you explain this?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Ah, that that's a good question. Always tough, you know, to because it's uh it's a very complex, it's a very complex environment. But what I would say is um I mean what we do is closing the loop. Okay. It's as simple as simple as it is. So when we come to waste, it means uh um bringing waste, no, so something that in the past was thinking as linear and to be disposed of, taking waste and bringing it back to a product uh that needs to re-enter the value chain. So what we do every day is uh obviously uh by commercializing our solution, we talk with stakeholders that are at the end of the value chain, so waste management and at the beginning of the value chain, so chemical producer, product producer, and so on. So what I would say I tackle it uh from closing the loop, and obviously to me it's about the material. So from material to material, yeah, we have different kinds of solutions, different kinds of approach, starting from MSW, then going to plastic, then going to water, then going to precious metal recycling, you know. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Okay, so then waste. Um if you would if I think about waste, I think there are two main images that pop in my head. One is like my own household waste that I put in the bin, and then it gets pushed somewhere, probably to an incinerator, and I think some European countries to to landfill. And the other one is more related to I saw a video recently from the ocean cleanup where they've taken uh big garbage pack, ocean garbage pack, I think it's called, uh, but also uh cleaning rivers and doing stuff like that, but those two will be very polluted.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Uh it's not a clean uh feedstock from a chemical process. Uh how would you how do you start that? Because you have this a big pile of yeah, that's a waste, I think of junk. Yeah, it's it there's a lot of stuff in there. Uh how do you how do you get to using that again?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I mean, um let's start from the sol from what we have today, no? Okay. Uh obviously, ocean is a big problem, okay, and that's let's say another bock tonek we can talk about uh in a few. But talking about general waste, okay, that obviously has a lot of contamination, is uh an extremely heterogeneous material. How do we recycle it? How do we dispose it? Today, what we are doing are basically two things: landfill, so basically we put it there, we let it sit there, and it doesn't make emission, obviously, but is creating an environmental issue. Okay. Or incineration, which obviously diminishes the problem related to environmental issue of landfilling because we don't have contaminant that gets in the soil, etc. We are producing electricity because we we burn the waste, we we we take the electricity that the waste gives back to us, but uh we are producing a lot of emission, a lot of CO2. Our idea was how do we make that CO2 valuable again? Because that CO2 is a problem, creating greenhouse gas is emission, but it's an opportunity because for us uh CO2 contains carbon, and carbons make up all the things that we touch and do. There's a lot of feedstock, it's a lot of feedstock, exactly. So uh in NextCam, what we are doing, we are offering a solution that we call an circular, okay? It's a classification solution, and the beauty of it is that we work uh uh uh with a limited amount of oxygen, okay, high temperature to really break down that the molecule in the waste to a small building block that is called syngas, carbon monoxide oil hydrogen. From that building block, we can do new type of chemical. We can do methanol, we can do SIF, you know, we can combine our sustainable radiation fuel. Sustainable radiation fuel, exactly. So we can we can move ships, we can move planes, and with methanol as well, we can make things, we can make chemistry, you know. Um so we combine this solution, an excircular, uh, with other downstream solutions, for example, our methanol solution from uh gas contact, you know. Uh and we can create uh an overall process that is uh 100% recycling and can produce a sustainable material. So this is where I see the solution and the opportunity that we can bring in uh MSW, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Okay, and then you this is let's say starting waste, um, but there's also in waste there's stuff that's not so valuable, there's stuff that's very uh easy to recycle, maybe not easy, but uh reasonably okay to recycle. But there will also be metals in there. Is that also uh I think gas gasifying that is sounds a bit weird to me.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Is that is that a separate approach, or how do you I mean when when we come to metals in general waste? I mean, let's say in our solution we we kind of create uh a slack of it, you know. So uh obviously we want uh a waste that is um majorly carbon, or we don't take uh we don't take construction waste, we don't take electronic equipment.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Okay, and you're selective to start with.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Exactly. Okay, but uh it's a it's a super flexible approach, and then obviously there is always some contaminant, there is always some metals and so on, and then we have uh a little stream of that dense uh concentrated metals that can go either in further recycling if there is value in it, but it actually is quite a stable uh and inert component that we can uh we can use as a construction filling, you know, as a material. So with that solution, we also address that problem, but uh then also we have a dedicated solution for precious metal recycling that are in electrical equipment, okay. And that's another topic, you know. Um that's a but it's another stream, it's another stream of waste.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So it's being selective, selective to start with, uh, then posing it as well, recovering as much. I you say value a lot, which is interesting because I think uh 20 years ago I think waste was waste, and indeed it was incinerated, or but you really view this as a source, as a as a feat, as something that can deliver value. Um, but it it has its challenges due to the diversity of the composition of the waste. Then the assumption is that it would be a lot easier to just recycle, for instance, uh plastics that start uh from an industrial player or that have more purity. Absolutely. But that's then do you use the same uh gasification solution for that, or do you have something else in mind to create value from that?

SPEAKER_02 9:08

I mean, uh obviously gasification, as I was saying, is for general waste. Okay, before getting to the general waste separate collection is key. Okay, so the I mean in our household we separate plastic, glass, uh paper, and so on, as well in the industry, it's what they are already doing, you know. Um so for those cleaner streams, we need to take a different approach. Why? Well, because with gasification, I mean we are extremely flexible, but we go back a lot in the value chain, in the production chain.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

We go to the single molecule. Instead, if we have pure plastic, you know, we don't need to go back to the molecule, we can take a simpler approach, just taking the plastic and treat it to have uh either recycled plastic or either an oil that needs uh that can go easier back in the value chain. So there we take a dual approach. If if the plastic, for example, is quite pure, it's uh all the post-industrial is good, or even the post-consumer that is of good quality, we take it and we can as an exchange we can offer a solution that is an extra plastic for mechanical recycling, you know. Um otherwise, I mean, pyrolysis, what we call pyrolysis, can take all the stream of plastic that are contaminated, when we call contaminated that are uh full of other plastic or that are dirty. And in Nextcam, we can uh I mean we recently went through the acquisition of Ballestra, you know, uh big news over there for the last uh few months. And uh with Boost Cam Tech, you know, we are offering an innovative paralysis solution that can take those plastics and create an oil that can go back in the uh either fuel industry, but what we aim is the chemical industry, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Okay, and how does that how does that process work? The paralysis? How do you get from plastic to oil?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Uh that's uh that's quite simple, you know. I mean, simple to say not to do, but uh we we take that plastic, you know, we we kind of melt it to and we put it in this reactor. Okay, here we work uh with a very, very low amount of oxygen. So before in gasification, I was saying that we were in deficit of oxygen. Yeah, instead, uh in this reactor we have basically no oxygen. We heated the plastic to high temperature above 400-500 degrees, depending on what we do. Uh and there we are, you know, the the plastic is they have long chain. No, we start to break those chains. Uh, what is solid or solid plastic? We break it into a oil that is similar to the oil that uh that now is processed in the chemical industry. So uh that oil, I mean we will go back to cracker to produce etherine, okay, to produce polyfelt poly olefin, for example.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Okay, and then you also said uh uh briefly mentioned um mechanical recycling, so that's pure, it's that's a high uh purity of plastic, but not 100% pure, because then you would not have to recycle anything. So, how do you make sure you increase the um the composition of those types of plastic? How do you how does mechanical upcycling or recycling work?

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I mean that's um that's a great question, and that's where I see the the great uh the great opportunity and the great value that we bring in next game as well. Because uh with an extra plastic is not only about mechanical recycling, is uh what we call compounding B2B. Okay, so obviously, uh with our technology we can uh you know take the plastic, shred it, wash it, separate all the different flakes, you know, because sometimes the waste is not homogeneous, so we can select uh the plastic that we like.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

And how how do you select it? Because that there's probably no people doing that flake by flake.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

So how does that is that something we have a IR detector, you know, infrared detector that basically can uh read the frequencies of resonance of each polymer, okay, and they say, Oh, this is poly olefin, this is polystyrene, and they can, you know, do different baskets.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Okay. Also, it also does color then uh also coloring.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Okay, also coloring that's even easier, you know. Uh we can separate all the different colors, but that's that's exactly the key point. You know, you touch that that's the easy part to me. That's nothing new, nothing new. I mean, we can we can do all these different baskets, right to imagine. We have the waste, and the first part of the plants we make all the different baskets: black uh polyolefin, red polyolefin, um polypropyline, polyethylene, you know. We we prepare the ingredients, yeah, I like to say. No. But the real value to me is recognizing, is recognizing that um this plastic have an history, have a past. Okay, we have an asset here in uh in Milan, close to Milan in Brescia, that do this every day. So what we do, we understand that plastic before as the previous life, you know, a bumper, uh a bottle, the plastic in there was additivated. You know, it's not 100% pure, probably it's 99, but they have different additives that make it perfect for the duplication.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Uh polypropylene for bumper has few additives that make it perfect for the bumper, polypropylene for bottles has few additives that make it perfect for the bottle.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

But different additives, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

So the real the real opportunity here is being able to have all these ingredients, analyze these ingredients and recognize that I have a different had a different life before.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

And then considering the past, you adapt your recipe on what you want to make. Because we know what is coming from the application of our waste. It was a bumper, it was a bottle, and we know what our clients want. They want to make bumpers, they want to make bottles. So considering that we know the past and we know the future of that plastic, we can change the additives as we want to make it perfect for that application.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Okay, so it sounds like a uh in terms of a plastic soup, but it sounds like a plastic chef.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

You pick ingredients and change the seasoning, you know. We change the seasoning depending on you know on the season, you get uh nicer tomato, or you know, it'll be a flavouring tomato, and then we can change the seasoning to make it perfect.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Okay, so it's it's an interesting uh comparison to to think about plastics in that way, because I need you can sort of cook with that as well. So that's a that's really nice. Okay, and then but then the the amount of different plastics, especially if you include color, is basically indefinite, right? So there are a million different colors of all track, all kinds of plastic. So I'm assuming it would be a lot easier if all bottles are transparent or whatever there, or if you have a limited um amount of plastics you can use, even a limited amount of colors you could use to enable recycling a lot better. Is that something that's on the table of regulators, or how do regulators help let's say the plastic recycling business?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I mean, uh no, that's a very good question. I think uh plastic recycler is a big issue for regulators. Let me say, first of all, I want to I mean let's make it clear: plastic is a big recycling is a big issue because plastic is a great product. Okay, it's durable, it's light, it's cheap. Plastic contributed as much to our economy, probably as fertilizer, no? I mean it's uh it's incredible to think about uh the jump that society made to thanks to plastic, but thanks to these properties, obviously it becomes an issue environmentally wise. So regulators are taking uh are taking a serious approach to this, and they're talking in two ways. One is uh regulating the use. Okay. Uh it's not only about limiting, because it cannot be limited, in my opinion, but it's about not to, let's say, uh excessively use plastic in application that maybe can be used something different. So that's why single-use plastic are really, you know, um are really an issue to tackle. Yeah. Okay. But also regulators, as you were saying, you know, how we can uh really make sure that something is easier to recycle, uh and you were mentioning the color, while regulators are are uh you know incentivizing now uh a more responsible product design, so easier to recycle, easier to disassemble, uh no uh composite plastic, no multi-layer plastic. Um, those are a small action, but then when we come to waste management, it makes a lot of difference.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

But the real now, the real difference to me is what they are doing in terms of recycling target and recycled mandate. Recycling target, I mean obviously now regulators in Europe they're saying each country needs to recycle this percentage of plastic.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Okay, of plastic or of waste?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

I mean they they they do it in general and they have different targets for different types of waste.

unknown 19:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So it's basically on uh just to contend if you are a plastic producer, X amount of your feed stock needs to be from a recycled source.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Is that that's a recycled content? Okay, there is the recycling, so obviously it's an you know, you you put a target on the country, you say you need Europe uh need to recycle 40% of plastic. No, so it's about imposing on on the country an action to improve the waste management, okay, because otherwise they will pay a fee, they will pay uh taxation, okay, the the so-called plastic tax. But then you know uh that's where it comes the second point that you were mentioning, the recycle mandate. Okay, if we just do an amazing waste management sorting, we need to create demand for it, and that's why, as you said, they they start to say if you make a new product, you have to have X amount of recycled plastic, okay, depending on product to product, industry to industry, because it's different if you make a bottle, if you make a car. But um, but they are incentivizing demand for recycled plastic, and that's what is really driving up prices as well of recycled plastic. Uh, what is creating demand, what is creating a business case for recycler. Um the implementation is tough, we know.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

But then it it sounds like your um, especially if you have the um I said the gasification as well. Let's say the pure the feedstock, the easier it is, which makes a lot of sense, and then of course, if you have a pure feedstock, you can just select the right flakes, melt it, make something new. If it's more dirty, more mixed, then you need to segregate, wash a bit more, and but you can still reuse it, and at some point you will get to let's say whatever is left over, and there you would say, Well, we used to incinerate or landfill that, but that we can uh gasify and we can make something new out of this.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

How does that link back to the original let's say virgin plastic? Because if you have this in gas, would you just build like you mentioned gas contactor methanol in the in the beginning? Um, make a plastic factory next to a waste management company and then close the loop? Is that happening somewhere already?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I mean, uh you are thinking about integrated approach. I would say Uh not with gasification, because uh I mean gasification, the beauty of gasification that can go to chemical industry and to fuel industry, no? So so there is no much need of that strong integration. Okay, there's uh integration of competencies because uh as I like to say, you start with a waste management plant and you end up with a chemical plant, but not integration of location. Okay, but what is we are doing, for example, is another stream of plastic. Uh we are working on an amazing technology that is called NX-ray, PMMA, and with a JV that we did in my remono. Joint center, yes. Uh and uh, I mean we are building a plant right in Italy for it uh for taking the PMMA and the polymerizing to MSM.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

What is PMMA? Is a specific kind of plastic or yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

I mean PMMA is plexiglass. Yeah uh I mean the brand is plasticlass uh obviously, and is basically those kind of transparent plastic that is used in in car lights, is used uh also in countertops sometimes in the kitchen we don't know it, but it's uh MMA, and also you know, in plastic glass, you know, it's uh it's a great plastic that is almost a technical plastic, needs to have great performances. Okay, the cost is actually quite high. I mean, probably is two, three times the cost of polyolephine. So it's uh it's a it's a added value plastic, I would say. We can recycle it, we can break it, you know, to polymer to monomer. Yeah okay. So why we don't go in mechanical because the property of that plastic is so needs to be so pure, so fine, that uh we need to think about something different. You know, mechanical recycling is uh is uh something, as I was saying, with seasoning and additives. Here we need to work really in extreme purity. So that's why we do chemical recycling. And that plant, in that technology, we want it to integrate it with industrial plants. So we really believe that in that kind of technology we we need to integrate the the recycling facility, the production facility to have the best performance.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

But then what's the uh speaking of ingredients, what's the magic source? What's the technology that makes this work? Because you say the mechanical um recycling doesn't work, it needs to be more pure. Yeah, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02 24:40

I mean, we we take uh the PMMA and then we have a very special reactor that uses multen metal, you know, multen metal really uh distributes heat amazingly and eats up the PMMA in the just the right way to break down the chain and uh and release the monomer. And the monomer we can then uh purify it and have it super pure. Um but you see, I mean that's why it's so difficult, so say the beginning. From different types of feedstock, you have a different type of industrial approach.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

So you need to you really need to be flexible and and know the industry, really know and understand the industry that you are facing with.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Sounds like plastic is here to stay, but it's going to be uh a lot more circular than it than it used to be when we were kids.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

It needs to, it needs to, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

But you I think the message that you give is quite incentives quite hopeful. The technology is there.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Uh the technology is there, the technology is there. Uh uh what what I see now as the big step is also what we are working on every day, you know, is uh is the consumer, is the hand user. So obviously, in the industries, the chemical producer have been let me pass the term spoiled, you know, by virgin plastic because it's easy. You know, you have never contamination, you know exactly the products, you know, uh and they are used to make their products with virgin plastic. Working with recycled plastic, with recycled monomer, it it requires you to change approach, it requires you to have a bit more complexity, you know, in your feedstock because uh inherently we have some contaminants and you need to face that complexity as we are doing in Myreplast, as I was saying before, with the seasoning. Yeah, you know. Uh you really you really need to take that proactive approach. So the the technologies there we really need to help a product uh user to to use in the right way that recycle plastic, but the plastic is here to stay.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Is there something a consumer should do or have maybe a change in mindset, or is there any consumer power here that can leverage circularity?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

I mean, as I was as I saying everything helps, and uh to me it's about really a dual approach. Obviously, consumer uh helps a lot. Any any choice of going taking a recycled product versus uh uh a recycled packaging, for example, versus uh and how do I see if it's recycled? I mean, uh usually usually there is uh good advertisement. Okay, because uh is that but but you see, but that's why I mean uh for example, uh we see different brands now that goes uh into recycled plastic, they claim that they really market their recycled content because they that they know that customers somehow are becoming are becoming aware of this, you know, and we want to drive the money the right way. But I think also you know I don't want to leave all the responsibility to consumer, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Because I mean I can imagine it if I buy maybe with food that might be more challenging. But if if there are plenty of use cases where it doesn't matter that much if my bottle is uh the same color every time, I'm just thinking about maybe the uh I have this image in mind now of the cucumbers in store have this plastic wrapping around them to preserve the cucumbers longer. I don't care if that's transparent or if it's purple or whatever, I just care about my cucumber. So if we we would educate consumers, hey guys, this is recycled and therefore the color variation is can differ a bit, I will be okay with that. Uh maybe not everybody, but um is that something that uh you see would be a um a path forward, or you say, Well, Mark, that's doesn't make sense we can make it happen without any color variations.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

No, uh I think you you actually touch a great point, and I tell you what, I'm a bit even more extreme than this, no? I I want to make this a sample. I was I was in a in a regulation committee, you know, they were talking about uh recycling mandate, and there was a very important, let's say, player there of uh bottles, you know, and uh actually food packaging. And they were complaining that they were not using recycled plastic because the bottles were becoming a bit more brownish, it was not a problem of quality, it was not a problem of food content, it's because the bottle was a bit more brownish, and actually they actually sell a black liquid, so I let you think about that. Um but that's the thing. I'm like, we really care if our bottle is just a bit more brownish. We don't.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

If you tell me this is this is more brown because it's recycled, I would probably buy it sooner than if it's a a virgin whatever colour.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

And actually, I now I'm quite pleased that it's been five years since I had that meeting, and today I see that uh brownish bottle in the in the supermarket. So for me, that means uh change is happening. They they understood we don't care. We don't care. We want we want to see recycled product, we want to see circularity happening. Uh, but as I was saying, it's not only something that I want to leave only a consumer, it needs to be a regulator. Plastic is an opportunity, is uh I mean it's a great power, and from power comes responsibility, so we need to take it as a society.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Be the future you want to see.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Luca, thank you so much for this this insight in the the world of plastic. Uh, I've learned a lot, and um, I hope uh our listeners have as well. Um thank you so much. Um, thanks for our listeners for tuning in to the next episode and hope to see you in the next edition. Thank you so much. See you soon so much.