The Champagne Series - Alex Bailey CEO of Bailey and French | Author

In this episode of The Champagne Series sponsored by Everflyht Vineyard 🥂 Alex Bailey joined me on the #BrightIAM podcast couch and shared insights on her career in organisational psychology. We discussed how her grit and determination was formed in her early career within the male dominated space of finance. Alex built a business whilst bringing two beautiful daughters into the world.

This incredible episode is so valuable for women who have spent years trying to claim their space and their voice.

Pour a glass, sit back and enjoy a conversation between Lucy Black @lucyblack_official and the powerhouse woman who is Alex Bailey.

This is 🎙️BrightIAM - The Champagne Series 🥂 

The Champagne Series is a bold, unfiltered podcast where powerful women
come to tell the truth and share their stories - not the polished versions, the
real ones.

Set in a beautiful, high-energy space, each conversation blends
honesty, humour, and depth as we uncover the stories behind the success, the
struggles no one saw, and the moments that changed everything. It’s a celebration of self-expression, resilience, and women who chose to do life on their own terms - with a glass of champagne (or non-alcoholic alternative) in hand and nothing held back.

Filmed at The Podcast Room Brighton

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello and welcome back to the champagne series here on Bright I Am Podcast. You know who I am. I'm Lucy Black, and I am so happy because today I have a lovely friend in the studio. She is sensational. It's Alex Bailey. Hello, Alex.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Hi Lucy. So good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

We're gonna have a little chin-chin because this is the champagne series, after all. Cheers. And we get to have a little drink on the job, which I'm delighted about. And uh we're drinking Everflight Vineyard Sparkling today, and it's just won a gold award. So a little plug for them.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Well done, Everlight.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah, cheers. Cheers to us being together here. So Alex and I have known each other. Let's try and do the maths. Um, so I would say at least four or five years. I think five, yeah. And we met when our children were at the same school in Sussex. And instantly, I loved you, Alex, because you came beaming up to me with your beautiful smile and introduced yourself and suggested we should all get together with the kids and have a bite to eat in a local restaurant. Yeah, because they're all the same age. They're all the same age. So we've got 13 months or 14 months between us, haven't we? So one in the year above, one in the year below, and two in in the same years. And it was such a forward, fun, lovely thing for you to do, actually, because we were new to the school. I loved it. And I thought, wow, this woman's great. And then when I heard more about your work and your history and all of the inspirational things you did, you just keep going up in my estimation. So you are absolutely truth, it's the truth. You know what I'm like? I can't lie if I do, my face goes funnel. Um, it's just wonderful to have you here and actually to have you as a guest that on a show where we're empowering women to become the most that they can be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Well, I love seeing you do stuff like this because this is what you're born to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

So I'm really happy to be one of your guests. Good. Well, I tell you what's probably quite nice for the listeners is for you to do a little overview on Alex. Who's Alex Bailey? What do you do for the day job? What are your passions? How did it all start?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

I've always been an observer of human nature. So ended up as a psychologist with no surprise to anyone who knew me. Um and that really drove my just my fascination of people. And I um I thought about doing criminal psychology because I was fascinated in that. Um, but uh I couldn't really cut up dead bodies. I'm a bit squeamish, so I decided to go into organizational psychology instead.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

So that was the choice. Right. I'm so pleased. That makes more sense. So organizational psychology, for somebody who doesn't know, explain that in like a in a one or two sentence. What is it?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

People are at the heart of all business and all work, and you know, there's how many billions of people on this planet we spend so much time at work. Um, organizational psychology really explores how we can make work life better. And for me, that's at a real base human level. So it's not about just improving processes to improve performance, it's about how you can actually support people to really thrive and be the best humans they can be in an environment that supports them to be seen and heard and really feel valued and respected as individual.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

So this isn't some, I mean, as you know, I've done psychology myself, but just for other people listening, this isn't just some fad that means your boss can get the most out of you. Organizational psychology supports the whole system, the structure, the people, and I suppose all the changing entities within their lives, all the different things that individuals are going through at work.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, and there's so much driven by society and the macro changes that are going on across the world in organizations, that there's always something new that's a big new challenge for humans in the workplace. Okay. So, you know, uh 2014, 2015, there was a big focus on mental health and well-being, and thankfully moved beyond the kind of awareness stage and stigma to really looking at proactive ways people can thrive in the workplace. Then obviously, through the pandemic, there was a huge shift to hybrid and remote working. Now we're looking at the massive change that AI and tech advancement and the pace of change that that's driving, and really trying to support humans to be their best in that new changing world, which is it's just the pace is and the volume is so rapid and so intense that this world feels very unstoppable and unsolvable. And I use those words, that's uh one of my heroes, Meg Wheatley, um, made that statement, and it really struck me that it does feel unsolvable and unstoppable. This world, you you just you're you're on it and you've got to keep going, and you just can't get off.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Um, there's so much happening all the time. So anything that we can do to support people to really feel like they can still be themselves, they've still got an identity, I think that's huge right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Okay, that's an interesting one. So to be able to be yourself at work and have your own identity in this changing world.

unknown 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

If you can have a digital twin, then who are you? You know, it's it's like, can't do I need to be in meetings anymore? No, my digital twin can make decisions for me because it's built on who I am. But then what's your identity? What's left? Where's the human connection? And that's being eroded by this opportunity for tech to reduce the overload. So it's helping us, but it's also eroding the humanness that that existed, you know, for so many years. And I feel like it's it's almost slipping between our fingers without us even realizing it. So we have to go about being human on purpose. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

And I suppose alongside that, you've got that fear that you've got your twin and it's reducing the load and it's helping. But there's also, I feel like, just hearing that, that fear that maybe you're being replaced completely. Yeah. And that kind of question of what can I bring that makes me unique and makes me human to my role, to this job.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

You know, I think people go through so many different levels of identity crisis throughout their lives and different chapters that we explore and we go through. Yeah. That this constant question of who am I in this world? Who am I now? You know, who am I five years ago is a com was a completely different answer to the person I am now.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Oh, and I blind me, isn't it? And it changes almost annually. All the different experiences, and I suppose, like what you've said, the world that's evolving and changing alongside.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I'm trying to keep up with that at work. You know, managers and leaders really struggle to maintain a focus on what's important to people right now when their worlds are changing so rapidly. Everyone is changing so rapidly. So you've got to really be just constantly curious and open-minded and flexible to know that things are always going to change and we can't hold people in one picture or in one box in our head, and that we've got to be adaptable and fluid enough to move with it.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

And with change, I mean, something I actually said, I believe, earlier today over coffee is there's only one constant, and that's change. Change is the constant, isn't it? But then how does that affect organizations? So moving away from that, I suppose, human-centered point, but actually organizations that are having to keep on top of all the changes and also keep on top of all the changes of the staff within them from that kind of top-down. And you support through your work all organizations and the people within it, Alex.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Is that correct? And the culture. So the culture is us, right? We often talk about culture being some other thing as if it's something completely different.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

It's the people, it's who it's who we are, and and really supporting that culture to maintain its humanness so it doesn't get lost. And I think a lot of what we've been through in the last few years has really, as I said, really diminished that. But really helping support people to have those threads and connections that really drive through. And that's why networks are so important. We were talking about it before, you know, developing your network is really the opportunity to invest in, because you know, being in the right rooms with the right people actually can really change your life, um, no matter how hard you work and what academic or educational background you've got. And I think, you know, being able to really focus in on being the human that you can be and constantly challenge yourself and be brave to step out of your comfort zone, even to areas of strengths, not necessarily into areas of weakness. Yeah. Just so fundamental, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I love that, Alex. And I actually, you just made me think. So I was working at Rockinhorse Children's Charity, as you know, a couple of years ago. Beautiful local charity, wonderful people.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

One of my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

I know. Do you know what? They are up there. It's because, you know, that's why I was only going to work at the best one.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

And um, I invited you actually to be a panelist and to speak in an event we had at the I-360. Yep. And just hearing you talk about your work then, because obviously when we get together, we do a bit of gossiping, a bit of chats, hearing you talk, you speak with such authority, it's beautiful on the subject of actually what's going on underneath it all. There seems to be, I believe, a noise in systems and business, and there's all this, and you've got to do that, and there's this stress in this movement. But when you speak about what culture is and what organizational psychology is, and actually what's happening and how people need to be supported, I feel like it's everything quiets and goes calm.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, I really do. And I felt that in the in the I-360 for that event, and obviously senior speaker, others. And then that whole idea of being in a space in the right room in the right network. Now, that's something that is actually open to people who haven't got a degree, say, like us on psychology, or haven't got a successful business already, or albeit a not successful business. But there are rooms and spaces that you can enter that can open doors to that next level. Um, I know we had a lovely little networking evening last week, I think. Cool, we'll have to get together next week as well, Alex. Make it weekly regular.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Um, and being around all different people from different areas of work and careers is exceptional, actually.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

You never know who you're gonna meet. It's funny, isn't it? Because I didn't I didn't ever used to be able to speak very much. I was very quiet. Seen and seen and not heard 100%.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Oh, how interesting. And I'll tell you something else, you've just jogged my memory with. I remember you speaking to me because you're the CEO of your company. And I remember you saying that you've walked into a room before and they were expecting Alex to be a man.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

I think that's happened several times.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Right, talk us through that because this podcast here is celebrating women in leadership, in life, entrepreneurial roles, women who are taking up space and doing it on their own terms. And I find that so fascinating that they maybe thought you were the secretary, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

It took me years to get there. So um, yeah, I've had that several times on virtual calls as well as um in person and recently. Um, so this is not an old thing um where people have said, when's Alex, when's Alex coming?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Alex is here, honey. You need to get an Alex t-shirt. An Alex hat.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Put that bad boy on. Wow. And I think it's just it's like kind of like little micro kind of discriminations that you experience. Um and you kind of get used to it so much. I think um there was a time when I would worry that I wasn't authoritative enough to be able to command the space that people would think that I'm a CEO. Um, and in different spaces, different cultures and different rooms, I've I have had completely different experiences. But it's taken me a really long time to make peace with the fact that actually in most cases where people underestimate me, I can use that to my advantage. Okay. So I kind of watch out for it now. So when I perform or I do like a speaking event or something like that, and someone comes up to me afterwards um to kind of say, Oh, that was good, they'll often use the word actually. Actually, that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

And for me, that's a real indicator of actually I wasn't really expecting you to be there. Yes. Um, and so I kind of watch out for it now, and that's what I kind of celebrate is like I've I've shown myself have.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

And they've actually felt compelled to come and say they were they were wrong in their mind, not that they're saying that directly, that actually that was really good. Oh, how interesting. That's the psychologist, then you say.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

So now I look for the actual word all the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Do you? Oh, I'm gonna actually be careful, I don't actually use it. Oh, how interesting. And then I suppose as well, the kind of different organizations that you support through your your work, organizational psychology. Are we talking um small businesses, big businesses? What kind of places have you worked with that?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

All types of businesses, all industries, all markets, all sizes. Um, but I really like working with big businesses. Okay. The more opportunity to have that big impression. Um I find very fulfilling and really purposeful. So, yeah, having those conversations, sometimes because people are underestimate me, I get into the bigger conversations much more easily. And that ends up being kind of a real opportunity for me to outshine myself and really show what's possible. But yeah, I love, I love all of that work. And it kind of comes a lot, I guess, from um when I was a kid, like my dad was in the navy. Um, I was often in in the mess or on ships um with lots of officers in the Navy, mostly men. Yeah. Um so I was used to being around all these people suited and booted, talking, you know, voices and you know, commanding attention. And and I was um, you know, I learned and kind of grew up in that environment not to fear it, and just, you know, the reality of all these people just being human. Um, and actually that really helped me going into business in the beginning of my career when it was still incredibly male-dominated in the environments that I worked in, which was in finance and um and banking.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Oh, so you started off in finance and banking. How interesting. Okay, and I love it, Alex, that you've said that you grew up around people in suits, men, booming voices, posh voices, people in these authority positions. So you you weren't just flung into this new zone that you'd never been in.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

I wasn't scared at all. I was walking into boardrooms full of people where other people would say to me, gosh, weren't you nervous? And I was like, No, actually not at all. And it's it's almost like I just I just see I just see the person. Um and that's really helped me my whole career. But it's taken me a long time to find my voice and to find the authority in my voice. Okay. And that's been that's been quite a journey. It's something actually I really promote now with a lot of the the, I guess, the new generation of women that work in their careers in in Bailey and French and in the world that I support, um, is to really help them find their voice and say it out loud. So not just share the research of what things they know.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

But actually say what they're really thinking. Oh, say it out loud. Because quite often, and I don't know if you had this or not, but I would sit in meetings when I was kind of early 20s, mid-20s, full of people that had loads more experience than me. Um, and I would sit there while they were talking or presenting and sharing presentations, and I'd think, well, that's wrong. That's not true, or have they haven't thought about this? But I was so scared to say anything because I thought, well, surely someone else has noticed this or would say it. Um, and then when I finally learnt to just take the plunge and say, no, that's just not correct. It's not that way, you've got it wrong. Like we need to think about things differently. I went through a bit of a bumpy period of being too blunt, and I needed to kind of be very careful and cautious about how I how I brought those thoughts into the room. But getting through that hurdle of saying it out loud was just absolutely phenomenal breakthrough for me. I suddenly realized that I had a voice and people actually cared about what I thought, not just what information I knew. So now I share that a lot with people and I have done throughout the whole time I've had Balian French for the last 12 years, is always saying to people when they're new into roles, I just want to know what you think, tell me what you think. Constantly inviting them, say it, say it, say it. Because I love that you've got to get it out of your head. You can't just sit there thinking things and not say it. You walk out feeling so frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, and to asking somebody, somebody, you know, because we've all had mentors in our lives, in our paths, you know. And to be in a work environment, you're the CEO and you've been taken on, and the CEO is actually saying to you, tell me what you think. Like that is such an invitation to share. That's wonderful. It's so empowering.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

It is empowering, and I just I wish that I had had that and I didn't actually had to push in in meetings where people were not waiting or inviting me into those meetings. They were, you know, I had to really elbow my way into the conversation, but steadily learnt to um to grow that voice and my place and presence in those meetings.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Thank goodness you did, and now you're illuminating the way for the next lot. This is what it is, and I think that's what it's like being a midlife woman. Yeah. And, you know, we're in our midlifes, or supposedly, depending which way you look at it. But I think you get to a point in this age where you really know yourself and you actually start to trust yourself because you've learned along the way, you've maybe had some wins, you've had some losses, but you kind of value yourself enough to put yourself out there a little bit more. What age would you say you were when you found your voice in business, Alex? 28. 28. Okay, okay. So not terribly old actually.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

No, but it's but in at that point in time, I was one of the youngest women leaders in the organization I was working with, which was uh the FTSE 100. And I had uh influence over 27 countries, 65,000 people. So I I, you know, there was trust in what I knew, but but actually putting myself out there, coming up with strategies, bringing ideas to the table, taking them to the board, challenging new way, like challenging old ways of thinking and introducing innovation. I, you know, I have people laugh at me. Um and then I was like, well, the opposite of what I'm suggesting is not currently working for you. So what have you got to lose? So trying to just turn things on their head a bit and and really, I guess, to a certain certain point, kind of speak truth to power in terms of really say what's actually going on. Um, people really respect that. Uh, senior leaders are so often um protected and kept away from the true information that they really value external consultants or people in their organization that will that will speak the truth and say what's actually happening.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, because you can be blinded to it. I mean, this must be something that you do as as part of your work within organizational psychology. But if you're in something, I feel I find it in my house. There's a pile of clothes in the corner of my house as I go out the door, big washing pile. I swear to you, Alex, it's been there now, maybe a week. It only needs to go upstairs. And I only saw it again at the corner of my eye today because my dog was sat on it. And I thought, what am I doing? But it's been there so long that I don't see it anymore. And I think it's a little bit like that in workplaces. If you're ingrained in your role, you've you're used to your people, you've got your blinkers on, and you can't see the woods for the trees. Exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Or you just believe believe everything to be the same as it was last year or even six weeks ago, and we know the world just moves on so much quicker than that. We've got to keep much more open-minded and be more curious of what's really going on now.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

And so tell me then, Alex, what are the benefits of supporting your employees within a work setting using methods like Bailey and French do of organizational psychology? What are the benefits? What do you see? What can you report on from that?

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Well, the standard things like reduced kind of turnover and reduced sickness, reduced um issues. I would say that over the last six to twelve months, we work with a lot of clients like over 100 a year, so we get a really good spread and mix and tr of of knowing what trends are really affecting workplaces. Okay. Right the way across the world. And um, one of the trends that we've seen, unfortunately, this year is a high amount of grievances going up, indicating much greater conflict in the workplace than ever before. That's interesting, right? And a lot of those when you actually explore it, has come from people stop really talking to each other and listening to each other. Um and so that really is where we start, is that that's the communication kind of connection, it's just lost, which means that when people feel aggrieved or agitated about something, they're much more likely to take a formal grievance route and really push something in a conflict situation that actually could be mediated and sorted out through a conversation, but because the relationship's deteriorated where they've just not spoken, you know, a couple of text messages here or there, never seeing each other together in person, never really recognising what's going on for that person, or even thinking that, gosh, they might have had a really bad day today. Um, being able to recognise that being human is to constantly learn and evolve, and expecting people, managers, first-time managers sometimes, who've never managed anybody, expecting them to be perfect on day one. And if they're not, you know, you're going to take them uh down a grievance route. It's really hard. I think businesses and organizations have got a really hard working environment and culture brewing that is is dangerous actually because it stops you then from doing the great work. Yeah, because you're then trying to really kind of backtrack and actually unpick some of the things that have gone on rather than proactively do the things that make the biggest difference to help people really thrive and flourish, working on purpose and energy and connection. All the things that are beautiful, yeah, that make work worth being part of, you know, that we don't have to just work for a wage. There is so much more we get from work, and work can be, you know, life's greatest opportunity to really find ourselves and find meaning and impact in in the world and what we do.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

And it's like I know you feel that as well. Yeah, it's like time. Yeah. We've got um, I think I did a post on my Insta actually a couple of days ago, yesterday. There's 200, oh no, it's not 200, I can't remember now, 252 working days a year if you take away bank holidays, weekends, a couple of I don't know, weeks, holiday, whatever. And that's 2016 hours of work a year. That's a lot of your life. That's a lot of hours of your life. So if you can be in a space in an organization where you feel valued, supported, your voice is heard, and perhaps You're doing a role that makes you feel good, you've got a purpose, or even but you're starting your own business and you're plowing all the energy and attention into that, that's blinding, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

It can really, you know, be quite a force, particularly for you know, uh women at midlife, you know, we're going through lots of different changes, including, you know, different types of pressures from caring responsibilities at all ends of spectrum, and um, as well as you know, health issues and all kinds of things that you have to go through. And I think it's just so easy to forget that actually there's so much that you can get from from work. You know, sometimes I go to work, and I've said this before, sometimes I go to work for a rest. And it's almost like it's that place where I feel appreciated. I've got two teenage kids. Yes, going to work and feeling like I'm doing something that's actually appreciated and valued is really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Oh, yeah, but that's completely new, isn't it? It's I can't buy enough shopping, clean socks fast enough. There's always a grievance or complaint at my house. And that's really interesting, Alex, what you're saying there, because it is that midlife, and you're also wedged right in the middle of teenagers, children, I don't know, maybe slightly older, some of them have left home and they're at that point. Um, health-deteorating parents because it's that age, they're getting, you know, older that side. And then internally, we do have fluctuating levels. Estrogen's gone off for a walk. I don't know where he's gone. Testosterone's missing, so I'm not as ooh, you know, there's all these different things. And I think as an identity as a woman as well, you know. I mean, we're fabulous, don't get me wrong. And most women are absolutely wonderful and fabulous, and if they don't feel it, they need to. But your skin changes. My skin's gone dry. You know, your face starts going down a bit, don't it? All these different things we're battling. No, you don't know that you change the day. Honey, I'll go. You lose it back right up again. But then you go into the workplace, and actually, if you are suffering or struggling with all of those things, the teenagers, the parents, identity, hormones, and you're not being properly supported within your role in the workplace, then what is going right in life?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Like that's actually hard. Yeah, it's really hard. So if then you go into an environment that's kind of full of conflict and you know, um, really difficult pressures, you know, it's enough to to really really damage, you know, how you feel about yourself. And I think that's why for me, I'm so passionate about work being such so supportive throughout different stages of the life. And you know, from a young age, I well worked from when I was 15. And uh I think it's just been absolutely formative to work multiple jobs before I even started my career. Yeah. Um so really pushing my kids to do the same because that exactly as you said, almost like if you're not in the room, where's the opportunity? Yeah, you just sat there on your phone somewhere at home. Like you're not in the place to even bump into someone who might have seen someone yesterday who you could be connected to. You know, it's you miss out on all those opportunities of the links, and those links are so key in a web that you need a web of support to get through all kinds of challenges that you face. And I think it always fascinates me when whenever I go to any event or any kind of conversation or opportunity where I'm not quite sure what I'm getting out of it. I definitely get something. I get so much again. I find out, you know, meet new people who've got connections to all kinds of different aspects, and those connections then fire off in my brain, and I think of all the possibilities of all the things I don't have the hours to do, but I'd really love to do. And it's energizing and we need energy, and energy is transferable. It's you know, we've got to remember that. So we need to find where we get energy and store it and use it and keep it for what we do every single day. So I think it's also very underestimated in the workplace. Energy sounds a bit woo-woo and a bit fluffy, but you know, if you ask any CEO if they know where in their organization their energy lies, they'll all be able to tell you which team. Yeah, which team's got the energy, who's working on the new product that's everyone's really excited about, or who's got a fantastic client that's really raising you know their standards, who's doing something that is is all of a sudden come out of nowhere and the team have completely uh you know smashed it. They'll know where the energy sits in their organization. And that energy you can you can light fires from it, you can bring it across the organization. You just got to be able to find it.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

You've got to be able to harness that, haven't you? And also energy, just thinking back to the um networking session we were at platinum at Martin Hoffman's, wasn't it, last week? And that energy in the room was really high vibe. All the people were beautiful, lovely people, it was fabulous. I really enjoyed myself there. But that energy isn't going from one person to another, it's multiplying. It's actually it grows. So the more we put that out, that posity, and we can find those spaces where we can harness that power, the better things are. And then I was also thinking, I think it'd be quite nice for you to maybe do like an overview of your mats, your strength mats. So I know that we did some sessions. I came up to London. Where were we in London? Somewhere beautiful. Where was that? That was beautiful. Um, I came up and you had the big session in that big, beautiful building by the docks. Oh, by the water. Yeah, by the water somewhere. I get lost in those circles. But that was wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Um, and this is a kind of exercise that you do that you've brought, um, I believe it is your own, you've you've made it, haven't you? That you bring into organization. So anybody who's listening who maybe works in an organization, if you were to turn up, what is it you would do with the team to try and help them with organizational psychology and culture?

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yeah, and and it's it's it sounds so much more complicated than it is. It's about having the right conversation and facilitating and structuring it. So yeah, having a positive foundation, working on what's right rather than what's wrong. Yeah. Um, that for me has been the philosophy right the way through from the beginning. Um, I'm a positive psychologist, so I've studied positive psychology as a specific kind of area of expertise. And that for me is really about that. How do we find what's right with people and accentuate that and amplify it and help people feel that they're fulfilled and excellent in that that way. And that for me is just the perfect entry point for any intervention in an organization because mostly people want attention, mostly people want to be seen, heard, valued for who they are, and we all have our own unique strengths, and it's not about protective characteristics, it's about who you are as a unique human being on this planet. So coming from that place, we've developed some tools. We use a lot of our conversation mats and our kind of dialogue um cards just to help people have conversations. That's all it is. Normally in organizations, a lot of people are fine once they get going, the problem is starting the conversation. So, as humans, we've kind of we've grown into this way of saying, Oh, how was your weekend? Do you have a nice time? Yeah, great, thank you. How are you? Fine. You know, all the standard responses. But it's the second question, as the third question is important. Oh, yeah, I had a great weekend. I went for a run on the weekend. Oh, did you? Well, what is it about running that you like then? Actually, it's competing with myself, constantly feeling I can beat my personal best. Like being able to get to that second question, then understanding what that is and bringing it into the workplace. Okay, so you've got competition with yourself that you really love that drives you and motivates you. How can we bring that into your work? How can we look at what you did last week and improve? Fascinating. And that is like a really simple kind of way of helping people feel like they are being themselves in the workplace. Um, because lots of people don't, you know, don't run for the same reasons. I know someone who runs because they run with their mum on the weekends, and it's the great chance to have a good conversation and feel like they're doing something healthy at the same time. Um, you know, someone else does it because it's their time to think, because they're surrounded by people in all minutes of their life, and it's the only time they get on their own, and they have a big thinking session when they're running. You know, people do things for different reasons, but finding out why is what gives you that hint and that clue of what their real strengths are. So bringing that out in people in all different types of ways.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

And that curiosity, because like you said, you're naturally curious. I've always been naturally curious. I felt like I was a natural psychologist before I did psychology. But being curious enough to ask and understand the person opposite you, whether that's in the coffee shop, whether that's on the dog walk, or it is in the workplace, that's where the magic lies, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:15

And people notice. Yeah. So you'll notice. You know, if someone, if someone makes a comment or asks you a question that goes beyond, you notice, you feel it. And actually, that's what customer experience is. Customer service is a lot, a lot of about that. So we know which restaurants we like going to, with which servers, with you know, which team members. We know where we'd like to sit because actually, you know, some people like to sit at the front so they can make sure that they're in the centre of every conversation of all the people that come through in case they see someone they know. Other people might like to hide at the back because actually they just want to people watch and be quiet and calm. You know, it's but it's about being able to match someone's vibe, someone's energy, being able to understand what they're really after and talking to them and getting to know them as humans. And a lot of that doesn't happen. We have this surface-level, superficial way of talking and communicating that doesn't mean anything. But we're we're so much deeper than that. Humans are so complicated and so incredible. I think we're we're so we've got so much more to learn about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Oh, we have. And do you know what is so interesting having this um podcast session with you and that kind of discussing the psychology of this human connection because ultimately women who are um starting their businesses or they're in business already, people who are considering starting, that human touch point, that being able to talk, being able to discuss what it is you're selling, what it is you're doing, and sell yourself is important, right? So that's really good tips.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Well, people buy you.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

People buy you.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

They want to work with people they like. Yes. And they they then you have to give of yourself in those conversations and let people know you, but that means you have to know yourself first, too.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

You have to know yourself and you have to be willing to show it. Warts and all, flaws and all. Something I um often get asked, you know, when you come people coming on the podcast, they've not been on for the first time. You know, well, what if I say something wrong? It doesn't matter, does it? I mean, if you said like a really bad swear word and you thought, absolutely not, we can cut that out anyway. Um, not that I expect you to, darling, you're far too well behaved this time of day. Um, but we can let ourselves get the words wrong. You know, sometimes I'll I'll get my words wrong. And sometimes I'll use the wrong turn of phrase, but we're human. And I think as soon as we, if we can accept that, then people will see that we've accepted our own human and therefore will like us more and be willing to buy from us more because we are all flawed, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

We will so many people certainly earlier on in their careers or earlier on in starting their own businesses, seem to wait for the perfect moment, the perfect opportunity, the perfect conversation, and they never happen. You know, it's you've got to just get going. Yes. And you know, I did that with my LinkedIn Lives, that's a good example. Like I was able to uh test the beta site for LinkedIn Lives when it first made them available. I had no idea what I was doing, I had never spoken live on anything before, and you know, this was before Teams, so before kind of everyone in the pandemic was switching to that. And I was like, right, I'm gonna go live to everyone I know on LinkedIn, and I've no idea who was watching or what's happening. And for the first, I started doing it every week. I was like, I'll just do it every week and see what happens. Nothing happened, and I thought no one said anything, okay, no one saw me, it's fine, I got away with it. And then after about, I think it was about six weeks, I started getting messages through of people saying, Oh, I really like that episode. And I was like, Oh, I didn't even know you were out in that. Oh, because I it didn't give me all the data when it was first testing the REATEA site. And we carried on doing it for about two years, and it led into the pandemic. And actually, I had people after that kind of saying it was the regularity of listening to that every single week that actually really helped because it made something feel normal while everything was in chaos. Wow. And I was like, wow, I never even meant, you know, never stepped out to do that. It was just me testing a site and going for it. But if you don't try things and put yourself out there, you know, what's the worst that can happen is people can say horrible things about you. And believe me, people have said horrible things about me. Yeah, and I have, you know, folded completely. And it's really affected me quite badly at points in my life when there was so much other stuff going on, and I couldn't believe the cruelty and the unkindness that some humans can have. And it really taught me so much about myself going through that phase and learning that this was all part of my growth. Yeah, this was part of me putting myself out there. I'd put myself in a public space, I'd shared more about myself than perhaps I should have done or maybe not. Okay, you know, and it's like that kind of testing of my identity, and some people are gonna like me and some people aren't. And it took me several years to get to that statement, that that point of okay, I'm not gonna be, you know, everyone's cup of tea. But we're not, though, are we?

SPEAKER_01 34:53

That's absolutely fine. And honey, if you are everyone's cup of tea, you're not doing something right for yourself because you're obviously appeasing too many different groups. We have to be a little bit marmite. Yeah, not everyone's gonna love us. I don't know why. I wish I'd learnt that earlier. I know, I know, and this is it that retrospect. I wish I'd known, but I think it's all that experience, isn't it? And the heartache and the hardship that you go through to get there, you just can't be given that. Like we'd like to hand it to our daughters, wouldn't we? You know, here's that chunk of knowledge, that'll save you 20 years of turmoil. No, it's not that easy. No, it's awful, isn't it? We've all got to go through it. And so just thinking, because I know we had a little conversation earlier, and I just wanted to hone in on this kind of that um get busy, get on it, and do it. I mean, you are an absolute goal setter, jet setter, and you've really accomplished a lot. You have Alex. And I think that if you were looking at you from this side rather than from where you are being you, you'd see this. But you've recently got a new project that you started. Is that correct? A book. Because I don't know anything about it. All I know is the word book. Tell me what it is you've got going on here.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

So um rapid reculturing is the name of the book. Rapid reculturing. Yeah, transforming organizations at pace and scale. So um I uh got together with a very long-term friend of mine, Kerry, um, who we worked together in financial services over 20 years ago. Um, and ever since then we've we've worked together in different guises. She's um internal as a chief people officer. Okay. Um, and um, and obviously I went and set up my own consultancy. So kind of different pathways, but we've worked together in different organisations since and always had conversations about the the differences and the new ways you can work on culture in organisations. And um, we talked about writing a book for a while, and then we decided to just go for it.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Good.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Um and we didn't really know what we were doing, we'd never written a book before. Um, but we kind of took it in turns, and I think a large part for me, having started several books and never got anywhere with them on my own, was knowing that I was committing to someone else. Like she would write a chapter, I would write a chapter, we would edit then each other's.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Because you were in it together, there was that level of responsibility to the other person. How interesting is that?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Kept me motivated throughout it, took us two years to write it. Um, and the combination that's something I'm really proud of because it really captures kind of 20, 25 years of working on culture in all types of organisations across the world, and it offers a new lens on culture that I think is right for the for what we've we're facing into in terms of AI and tech. So it's a big, it's a big different change for me to be writing something um like a like a book. I can talk about failing in French till the cows come home. Of course. But you know, sitting talking about words that you've written and getting kind of feedback, I do find it a little bit uncomfortable personally. So I'm trying to working through that at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Is that because it's new, I suppose? It's new. And also, if you've been writing this for two years, I wouldn't remember what I've wrote. I'd have to read it again. You do that through the editing. So I'll do you.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Okay, you're back through that. Okay. So we we've got to that point now and it's being published in July.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

So it's so it's being published next month. Wow. So this episode will be out just as it's getting published, right? Yeah, and well actually before, yeah, end of June. This that's fantastic. Yeah. So how how do people get hold of this book if they're interested in reading about culture and they want to look and and learn more about it?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Well, it's on all good bookstore sites. So we're very um very honoured to be published by Wiley um from New York, London, and Singapore. So um it's on every Amazon site, whichever country you're based in. Okay. Um it will go uh it'll go up. Um, but also Barnes and Noble, Waterstones, um Targets, all kinds of different different organisations right the way across the world. So it's available, yeah, 15th of July. But you can pre-order it.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Who is going to benefit from reading this book?

SPEAKER_02 38:46

So it's that's a really good question because we had we had this conversation multiple times while we were writing it, was kind of here's the audience and be really clear on that beforehand. But actually, we both work with everybody. So it's it's as applicable for kind of CEOs and chief people officers as it is for, you know, HR teams, but also business leaders, managers, as well as I would say there's a large dose of women's leadership in there.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Um, so there's a whole chapter on armouring and actually some of my research into women's leaders at board level and how they had changed kind of their appearance and the clothes that they wore and the jewellery and things like that to show different levels of professionalism whilst they were climbing the career ladder. Oh, interesting. I really wanted to put that in there because I've had a similar journey myself of kind of watching other people that I aspire to be like, my peers and those people at the next level and trying to dress in the way that people would find me acceptable. This whole kind of constant self-criticism of am I good enough? What do I look like? How do I how can I look more like the people that that's being expected in the room?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

And how am I going to be perceived dressed in this way compared to another way?

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Absolutely, and it really makes a difference. You know, I resisted calling myself a CEO for a really long time. I called myself a leader on purpose because I just felt like a chief executive officer of a small consultancy. That sounds so trumped up, it sounds ridiculous. Um, but fascinatingly, someone said to me, like, you need to change your title to CEO and someone I trusted. And I was like, No, you know, all these reasons why I hadn't done it out of principle. Um and they said, no, just try it. And I tried it. And almost overnight I got more invitations to things, I got opportunities to speak, I got conference kind of opportunities that had come from almost seemingly nowhere. But there was a really big difference, and it matters how you put yourself out there. So even if you don't like it, sometimes you have to change the shape for people's expectations, but then make it your own. So that's my kind of twist on it, is like being like that. So yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book around around armouring, which I think is was was actually quite targeted towards towards women leaders going through what I'd been through in terms of how to present myself as a leader in order to influence cultural shifts, because you have to be influential in an organization to try and change culture at scale. Wow. To really think about your ability and your agency.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

And actually, being a woman, you've got another hurdle to get over. And this is something that we're uncovering. So, as you're a woman, you've got to get over the hurdle of being taken seriously because you're a woman CEO, not a man CEO. So you want to change the organizational culture. So you've got all these extra bollards that are up. And I mean, we've had it our whole lives. You kind of get used to it, but again, just from this outside perspective, hearing you explain that so beautifully, Alex, is just another burden, another mental load, another consideration that we have to have. I don't think there's many men that would consider think worry about calling themselves the CEO of the whatever. But for us women, it's a different thing. How we dress, well, they all dress the same anyway, these fellas, don't they? Not as nice as us. Careful. These fellas.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

These fellas, quite like a lot of those fellas. Yeah. I've got to be honest, a lot of my supporters have been um men. Have they? That's positive. A lot of people who um have have added those microaggressions and discrimination have been women. So I think there's a real opportunity to kind of shift the narrative around what is perceived out there and how how we behave and how we act and how we draft.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

You've okay, how interesting. So you've actually found that men in your career path have been really supportive, but actually there's been women that haven't.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Most of the kind of step-ups that I've been offered into new opportunities have come from men that I know, not women. I think there's uh a lot of superficiality, I think, in this whole kind of movement towards women supporting women that is not as as real as we like to think it is. And I think you know it, you know it when you're in the room, you can tell which pope which people who are really genuinely warm and those who are faking it. Because as humans, this is the thing, right? We can tell if someone's faking.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

That's that's part of being human, is being able to tap into how people are behaving, changing their head, laughing, smiling, turning to you, inviting you know, other people into the conversation. And like it all those subtle cues you only really can't find in the room.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

And you can feel them, can't you, as well, when it's not sincere. Yeah, you can feel it. Oh, wow, fascinating. We should go out on a night out and have a psychology up, shall we? Shall we? Should we have a research project? Shall we? I would love to. Um, I've got some questions for you, Alex, because I ask every guest who comes on for these questions. Yeah, have a have a wet your whistle. Um, three questions, which basically you just have to answer in your own way, whatever comes to your mind.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

So for this one, um, of the three is what's the truth about your life that most people would never guess?

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Uh, I guess that I have been independent from the age of eight. Wow. Okay. And I think that changes who you become. So most people's strengths come from and developed. In moments of challenge, often through childhood. And if you ask anyone where their strengths came from, most people can tell you where they came from through overcoming all kinds of different things. And for me, you know, my independence, my bravery, my ability to go out and find things and be curious come from me being fairly alone from eight. So, you know, that's a that's a real truth that a lot of people probably just don't know about me. I think people like to make assumptions that, you know, I've got this wonderful kind of setup and foundation that launched me into the world. And actually, no, I had to fight for absolutely everything from a young age in lots of different ways, not just in this country. So yeah, I lived in what 42 places in 48 years?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

No.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Moved around a lot, so I don't have any roots. So I've always had to, you know, kind of build trust really quickly with people and been really open and direct in order to try and kind of allay any assumptions and get help try and, as I said, build trust and get to know people really quickly. Um, so yeah, that's really shaped me.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah, I bet it has. It's incredible, actually. And you're right, we do kind of put these um narratives and stories on people we meet. Like I we really do. Like I see people and I think, oh, well, they probably grew up there or they did that. You we kind of add this bloom of our ideas and our our thinking and reasoning, I suppose, onto people. That's quite a it's quite a shocking one, Alex. Actually, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Did you didn't expect one?

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Brilliant. Bring my where's my second question. I think our lovely Mandy, who came on first, she couldn't think of one. Then afterwards she's texted me for about a week with all these other examples. Um question number two. Where did you abandon yourself within your life's trajectory? And how did you come back?

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, well, I mean, if I go right back, it was probably at the height of my career, at like 32, I'd done incredibly well for my age as a woman in the financial services industry. And I had one of the best jobs in the world. Um, it it was brilliant. I was able to innovate, I had a great team, I was working globally, I was having so much fun as really fulfilled. Um and I had wanted a baby for a while and it didn't happen easily for us. So when I became pregnant, I had to really abandon everything I'd set my life up to be. Um and then had another one really quickly after that, so that I had to abandon everything. So yeah, so um, yeah, having having having two babies really closely meant that I had to kind of abandon that that idea of my career, being in that world which I had really, really invested so much of my identity into and let go of it all and stop. And um, and I chose to stop work entirely just to be there for the for the girls. Um and and how did I yeah, reinvent myself to come back? I started doing actually did some volunteer work um with Action for Happiness, which is um really important to me. Um, it's about developing more happiness in society um using evidence-based methods around positive psychology. So it was kind of right up my street, but I was volunteering here in Brighton and and I met Joshua French um and we started doing some some facilitation together for that charity. And um it just went it just went really well. People kept saying, Oh, you should do something together, and that's really how Bailey and French started. Okay. Um so I was doing some coaching and had some some people who said, Oh, you should come and speak to our manager, and it just kind of went from there. And I said to Josh, should we should we do something about this? Um, and so really just kind of building the courage to do something on our own and go, actually, we can do this, I can I can leave that big career with huge opportunities globally to work all over the world to do some amazing, amazing things, and I can still go and do even more and even bigger. And I have so now I work with obviously like a hundred odd clients a year, right the way across the world, all industries, all markets. And for me, that was so fulfilling to kind of almost like blast through what was possible in my previous career into something totally I never imagined it would get this big.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

And it was with your craft as well. So you were able to, I mean, a question we've been discussing on this um podcast is can women really have it all? And if so, at what cost? And I know because I'm very much the same same year as you, we're having your babies and leaving your career trajectory. I was doing the same. Boosh, there goes identity, boosh, there goes your body, boosh, I'm a mum, there goes sleep, there goes that, and actually then you have another baby and it's double whammy. I know, I feel you, it's hard, hey. You could not do that same job with these two new responsibilities, but actually, what you've managed to do in the right time, in the right way, with the right intentions as well, that it's come from charity, much like me with Bright Course, mine come through charity as well, volunteering. You've created and craft and built around that. It's beautiful and wonderful that it's been such a success, Alex.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

I worked very strategically to get them to sleep at the same time, to nap at the same time, despite being a year apart, so that I could build my website in half an hour in between their naps. So, like it was so I was driven, really driven, despite being sleep deprived and you know, in that mum state that you're in. I think there's so much creativity in those years as a mum when you're up in the middle of the night feeding or you know, unable to sleep at five once they've been up all night and you've been teeth, they've been teething or whatever. I think there's still so much of your brain that is able to create and innovate. And I think actually I used a lot of that to really dream what was possible, and that was what I really put into things. And I really truly work quite hard to make sure that people reach and achieve far more than they ever dreamt possible, and that is really like a big driver for me because like life just feels so short. I'm sadly, and I'm sure you have as well, lost lots of people far too soon. And you know, just the thought that you know, the amount of time that we have on this planet as humans is so precious, just to make the very most of every single second and every day. And that's what really drives my overworking, I think. Crazy overworking. But yeah, I can't help it.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

I just got so much to do. Well, this is it. I just love what I do, and you've got so much to give and to deliver for your work.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

It's very fulfilling. I'm I couldn't be more privileged and honored to work in the space that I work in. We work with such amazing people, and do you know what? These such amazing people are such just amazing humans, and everyone is such an amazing human. There's like everywhere you go, there's people there desperate to just be seen and heard and and wants to be able to do their very best. People don't set out to be bad performers. Everyone wants to be a high performer, everyone wants to be top talent, everyone wants to have strengths and to be seen. And you're helping them unlock that. Yeah. I mean, that is actually beautiful, isn't it? It is especially, I mean, you work with people who are close to retirement age, you've never ever been told that they've got strengths. It is truly heartbreaking, you know, for them to realise at the last part of their career that the one thing that they always got told that they were bad at was actually the thing that they couldn't stop doing because they love doing so much. So it's like they just felt like they had the wrong career, you know, and it's being able to help people find what's within them and what's possible as early as possible to get the maximum amount of the time that they've got in the whole of their life, not just work and beyond. We know a lot of people that are really significantly impacted beyond work and say, actually, this has really changed me.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Because it's your work takes all that time.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

And if you can unlock something and have a new awakening in one area of your life, like the butterfly wings, it's gonna affect and go across. It's beautiful, Alex. I love that. These are good, these questions. They really open up some good conflict. They're brilliant questions. You're a great host, you are. I'm gonna do 10 questions next time. Um, finally, because my clock's ticking. If a woman is watching this, which I've got a feeling that they will be, okay, and she's feeling stuck where maybe you once were, what does she need to hear? Not what sounds nice?

SPEAKER_02 52:02

It's a coaching technique that I I have used when I have been coaching. I don't do a lot of coaching now, but um I do find that women often put other people before themselves. Now I know men do that as well, so I'm not making a sweeping generalization here, but a lot a lot of women have empathy for others and will do things for other people over and above themselves, which is why they often put themselves last and kind of suffer as a result of that. Similar to why I did the book, you know, I did it with Kerry because I felt like I knew that I was going to be sending her the next draft. And it's that accountability piece, but feeling like you're doing something for someone else, like um, is really, really powerful. And I think sometimes when you're stuck, to put yourself in someone else's shoes, which is more of a natural state for women, and say, Okay, if my my friend was having this problem, how would I help them? It's just you it's almost like you can just see the answer instantly because you're trying that's a natural state, is to be focusing on somebody else. Yeah, um and that's and you'd be kind to your friend.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Of course you would.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

You'd see all the good in everything they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

And you'd exp you wouldn't pull heart, you wouldn't critique them. Yeah. And that can be a thing, can't it? We can, well, I say we, I really actively practice very much what you've just said. Try and teach, treat myself with kindness. I don't talk badly about myself, I don't use bad words. But actually, showing yourself kindness and compassion is harder than showing it to someone else.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

It's sometimes it's so much easier to just lift yourself out of you and say that. And there is another thing, so I ask people sometimes is it permanent, is it persistent, is it pervasive? So is it permanent? Is it gonna, is it gonna not change? Is whatever's going on right now, is it ever gonna change? Normally it's not. Is it pervasive? So is it affecting all areas of your life, every single area of your life? No, not normally. Um, and is it persistent? Is it gonna keep happening to you? No, not normally. Okay, and sometimes that helps just minimise the problem and make you feel a lot less stuck. Yeah. It's like this is just a moment, yeah, this is just perspective. I just need to get that distance. How interesting is that?

SPEAKER_01 54:06

I love that. I think you're gonna have to come back on again, Alex. We're gonna have to talk about all these things. I feel like we could do our own show actually. Definitely could. Oh no, the psychology sisters with champagne. I'd love to. So just moving on, one final thing, just for people who are listening and perhaps didn't quite grab the name of your new book that's coming out in July. They're gonna be very interested in leadership, in human-centred work, organizational psychology, all of the things we've discussed today, because I'm interested in it, I know about it, but people who haven't are gonna see the value. So, what is the name of your book? Just one more time for us today, Alex.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Rapid Reculturing.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

And you're Alex Bailey, and the other co-author is Kerry O'Neill. Kerry O'Neill and Alex Bailey. There we go. Bless you. Thank you so much. Bless you. It's been lush, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 54:56

I love talking to you all the time, you know we do.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Yeah. Microphones, cameras, champagne, it's all works, don't it, Neil? We'll do it anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

I knew the first time I saw you, I was like, right, I wanted to be friends with her. Yeah, we're busy. Best meets forever. Best means forever. Thanks for inviting me on. I love this. It's brilliant what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Thank you, darling. Bless you. It's been so lovely talking to the wonderful Alex Bailey, and you will be saying the same. You'll want to hear more from her again, so we'll make sure we get her on. This has been the Champagne series sponsored by the beautiful Everflight Vineyard. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you again soon. Thank you. Bye bye.