What's in a Vessel? Wine in a Can!

How do you like your wine presented? Wine in a bottle, can, box or bag? Does it bother you? After a chat about Wine Paris and Raw we move on to discuss what can be quite a controversial - or should we say emotional? - topic would you believe. 

There are many choices out there so what should you choose and why? From ease of use to sustainability in the wine world we taste, tease and weigh up the pros and cons of different packaging for wine.

Since recording and before I contacted them, the Talking Rubbish podcast has released an episode on microplastics! See link below!

Here are some promised links:

Marcel Lucont 'Wine in a Can'

Talking Rubbish Podcast

Talking Rubbish Microplastics

Marks & Spencer Rosé

Chateau Foliette

Dropyn – Gwin Dylanwad Wine Chat is recorded in our little wine shop in Dolgellau, North Wales. Join Dylan, Llinos and Osian as we chat about wines, winemakers and the stories behind the bottles.

🍷 Visit us at https://dylanwad.co.uk/ 

💬 We’d love your feedback and reviews to help us grow.  Diolch!

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:12

So we'll kick off?

Llinos 0:13

Yeah. Okay then. Hello, Croeso i Drop yn. Welcome to Drop yn, Gwin Dylanwad Wine's podcast from Dolgellau. Nice to see that the audience is growing nicely. We're getting some questions and suggestions in, which is fantastic. So I'm llinos, Osian's here. Hello. And Dylan.

Dylan 0:39

I'm here too.

Llinos 0:40

Oh, we've got Jack again here. He's in the background there. So yeah, watching us and observing. So we've been having a busy, busy March. No, it's not even March, it's February. Over the year flies. How confused I am. No, we've had a very busy February because we went to the Paris wine fair. Oedd hwna'n, um, yeah, fantastic.

Dylan 1:08

Only two lucky people got the golden ticket. Sorry, Osian.

Llinos 1:12

I think I think other people should be able to go next time. Yeah. Ond da ni gyd yn mynd yn ol i Ffrainc, we're all going back there, aren't we?

Osian 1:17

Looked good but kind of stressful at the same time.

Llinos 1:20

Okay, I would say it was very stressful actually. Now then, at the risk of being laughed at again. You know, we we left here after a very busy day on Saturday, uh, stayed the night in Birmingham Airport, not my favourite, and um we arrived at about half eleven at night and had to um get up at four o'clock again in the morning.

Dylan 1:42

Yeah. But it's good then. You just stagger across the road to into the terminal, and then suddenly you're in Paris and everything seems better.

Llinos 1:50

And you're walking twenty thousand steps a day going round. Oh, but it was uh it was good though. I mean it would be good for you, you'd love it. Um six and a half thousand producers. That was in the one show. In the one show. That's just in the other one. Paris wine show. Yeah, we went to the Raw, didn't we?

Dylan 2:07

Yeah, so Sunday when we arrived, we got there in time for the afternoon to the Raw Wine Show Fair, whatever they call it, which is a sort of natural, organic, biodynamic crew who were gathered in a in a different place.

Llinos 2:21

But in Malakoff, in Paris. There we are. Well done.

Dylan 2:24

You remember the region. We got on the metro and took about a quarter of an hour to work out how to get a ticket, but once we'd mastered it, we got a little bit more.

Llinos 2:32

Good little app for got, wasn't it, in the end?

Dylan 2:33

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, obviously. Old people take a time to get their heads around these things, but uh but it was um that was interesting.

Llinos 2:42

It was in an old distillery, and we saw our champagne producer and some really interesting ciders. You'd love it, Osh. Yeah, you'd you you'd you should maybe go to that next year when it's on.

Dylan 2:52

There's one in London as well, isn't there?

Llinos 2:54

Yeah, raw raw is it's all over the world, I think. Yeah, circuit around the world now. And then we went the next two days to the actual massive ten times the size of Dol gellau Paris wine fair for two days. That's a good comparison, really, isn't it? Exhaust that well it it is like ten times the size of central Dol gellau, isn't it? Yeah. And we gave up on we gave up on um the appointments. You try to make some appointments, and I likened it to parents evening when I was teaching. Because you'd have to, you'd get people, oh, make an appointment. You think, what's the point? Nobody ever is able to keep them. No, I know. And you were sort of saying, Oh right, we've got a we've got a um an appointment in H H block H block was a prison, wasn't it? Block block block, whatever it was, this block here. And then the second appointment was about 20 minutes' walk away. And yeah, it really was.

Dylan 3:50

It takes that long to move around, isn't it?

Llinos 3:53

It does, and it and it's so big that they've inserted these um walkways that carry you along. Wow. So that that's how how big it is. So yeah, it was really useful. I could get a buggy for you, Dyl.

Dylan 4:07

Um now. I get one of them. But it was just a great opportunity for us, isn't it? We see all our producers. We import from. Yeah. And then uh you know, a fair few others. Um well met on the metro, leaving on the first night as you shuffled out of the show ground and shuffled, forced yourself into the metro. And we were face to face with a a couple speaking English, and you know, oh you've been in the show, yeah. We're a Washington wine producer. So Washington State in the US, a top producer, Twin Hills or something.

Llinos 4:48

Twin Hills or something, yeah. And they were really nice people.

Dylan 4:51

Lovely. So on the second day we were able to go back and you know hear all about Washington State and the specific conditions and all the grapes that he grows, and yeah, that was that was great, well met in the crush of the metro.

Llinos 5:04

Yeah. So I really think that you know, that's the kind of thing that might just persuade us to think, well, do you know what? Would we ever risk or be able to import from somewhere like the US? I mean, we did brute it, didn't we? And you know, that's the kind of thing. Meeting people like that is what makes you think, do you know what? Quite fancy that.

Osian 5:28

And it's those regions that people don't really know, isn't it? Like Washington and up from Oregon, down from Canada, you know. We heard about good Pinot Noir from Oregon.

Dylan 5:40

Yeah, they they seem like they got different conditions in Washington, sort of countering to a hotter, drier, further north. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where Oregon cooler, Pinot Noir and uh Chardonnay and things there.

Llinos 5:51

But uh, so that was intriguing, wasn't it? And it's these lucky little chance meetings sometimes get us, you know, into new places and doing different things.

Osian 6:02

Yeah. Were there was it so you you know, when you visited the producers, was there a particular question that you asked them, or was it just sort of it's uh anything in mind?

Dylan 6:14

A chance just well, catch up with news with them, how was the last vintage, a chance to to taste new vintages, whether they're last year or you know, ones that have been aging that uh will be our our next purchase.

Llinos 6:26

But um I'm always keen to ask about sustainability and what they're doing to develop sustainability. We know that a lot of our producers are already doing quite a lot, but they're moving on, aren't they? And um I think climate change is always in our question, isn't it? And alcohol levels and that kind of thing. You know, um that that's uh you know the kind what challenges are they facing? Has it been what's it been like last year compared to you know what they think um it should be? And yeah, so th those kind of things crop up, don't they?

Dylan 6:58

Yeah, yeah. But it's i I think we've probably said before, you know, these guys th they're your friends in the end, you know, these people you deal with them year after year, but you don't get the chance to have a little just uh a chat and how are things and and how's the family, you know. It's it's it's about that as well.

Llinos 7:16

It is like that. I have to say, I mean I don't I don't really like to praise him with the Ben or Juido, um, but you know, you do get a good welcome from them. You you're they respect you, you know. Whenever whenever we go up, you're welcomed by every single producer we go to. And it is nice to see. I think about me. I know, I know.

Speaker 1 7:37

That's good praise.

Llinos 7:39

He doesn't get that very often, does he? Doesn't get that very often. But it is a source of pride when you when you see how much they respect you, um, having known you all these years, and you know, they trust you.

Dylan 7:50

It's nice because we we don't take buckets of wine off them. Um we're very small, yeah. Yeah, but in the end, when you consistently take it, because you respect them, they respect you, and it's a it's a circle, isn't it? It's a virtuous circle that we're we're happy to keep spinning. I'm not sure whether that makes sense.

Speaker 1 8:09

Okay, stop that.

Osian 8:11

But no, sustainability is like a key point, I think a lot of producers are focusing on. Yeah. And a lot of the producers that we buy from now are organic, aren't they? And they're always thinking of new ways to you know for sustainability and be better for the environment.

Llinos 8:28

Um when we were in when we were visiting last year, you know, we went to Torino and Bossotti and all of those, and you're looking up. I always look at their roofs or and uh Bossotti was down the side. They've got solar panels, that's good. You know, ask them what they're doing about water, that's the way that's a lot of people. All the runoff is going into tanks, yeah. I mean, this makes you know, it makes economic sense as well as um sense to make sure that they are sustainable as well. And it's good to see those things happening, they're serious about it.

Dylan 8:58

And it's funny that climate change and you know I don't know, people have fixed a bit that oh, we'll have nicer summers here and that'll be lovely. And as far as the the the sort of wine grape growing uh calendar goes, it's much more important all through the year, different stages, and and you always learn new things. And I can't remember which producer, maybe you can remember, talking about how they'd had a warm winter, which meant that the the vines had used up some of their sort of stocks of energy uh i in the winter, which meant when it came to springtime, when they needed to flourish and bud and flower and grow into a leaf-covered vine, they'd used a lot of their stock up in the winter. You know, and it you sort of don't think of that, just think, well, as long as they get through the winter, off we go again. But no, they'd they'd used up too much energy early on, and that's a problem then. They're not going to produce the same quality or amount of grapes the next year. You know, you're looking at the the winter before for the spring, for the summer, we want to be nice, and then the autumn to be good as well, to get this perfect ripeness, perfect maturity to make the best wine.

Llinos 10:11

Yeah, yeah. And that you know, that that's another thing, isn't it? You always learn lots when you're there. Yeah. You know, you learn lots about the producer and then other little snippets. That's really good. Yeah.

Osian 10:22

Sorry, I'm just gonna go into producer mode. Yeah, sound technician mode. Could you lift your foot off the table?

Speaker 1 10:31

Oh, it's like the table shaking. It's all gonna fall over in a minute, sorry.

Dylan 10:38

Well, that I think the sustainability sustainability of this, yeah, yeah.

Llinos 10:45

But it's not gonna work. Oh, that's funny. Uh yeah, so that leads us nicely on to our topic this evening, I think, the sustainability, isn't it? Because sort of that's what what started us on selling cans of wine. And you've also ordered large quantities of cans, haven't you? But we'll put that to one side. We're talking about the vessels that we put wine in. Not that not that wine is made in, but what you actually buy off that supermarket shelf, you know. A bit similar to the revolution of the cork and the the stalbin closure of the screw cap.

Speaker 1 11:22

Yeah.

Llinos 11:22

Um, we want to have a little look at um why we'd consider um other vessels to put wine in for you to buy from the shop.

Speaker 1 11:31

Yeah.

Llinos 11:32

Um and um what people think of it, how it goes down on the whole. Yeah, you know, we've we've we have had a little go at box, haven't we, in the shop? No, just little foray from Pedelage years ago.

Osian 11:45

Wine boxes, yeah.

Llinos 11:46

Wine boxes. We just tried one, didn't we? And then we um we have sort of we've got we've got a lot of cans, haven't we? You know?

Dylan 11:54

Yeah, we we're definitely keen on cans. We're keen on cans, yeah. Is a good vessel. So it you know, how do you present?

Llinos 12:00

It says dull.

Dylan 12:02

Well, it says dull.

Llinos 12:04

But but yeah.

Dylan 12:05

It's it it's you know, what is the di I mean apart from our perception and our vision of what we expect our wine to be delivered to us in, the bottle, the glass bottle is an inert vessel. Totally inert, isn't it? And no impact on the wine.

Speaker 1 12:20

Yeah.

Dylan 12:21

The cork maybe a tiny bit. Stelvin. Uh intriguing with Selvin, uh, if you do have a look inside your stelvin. The closure, yeah, the closure, the screw top, you will see in the same way that a cork can have a little bit of give in it, a little bit of oxygen can move in and out of a bottle, your stelvin cap, your screw will have inside a little seal, and they can choose that seal. How many parts per million of give. Okay, good. So you know, so I didn't know that until we saw his name escapes me in Burgundy. Top, he won Best Young Wine Winemaker in Burgundy years ago.

Llinos 13:02

David Trussel.

Dylan 13:03

No, not that working for Boissette.

Llinos 13:08

Oh, I know.

Dylan 13:08

Great winemaker. He puts uh some top Gregory. Gregory. Yeah.

Llinos 13:13

I remember him because he paid for lunch for us. Always always a good move if you want to stay in my memory.

Dylan 13:19

But yeah, you know, he tried putting some really, you know, smart burgundies in in screw top uh bottles, and two years later he had to give up on it because it's burglary. Average French Somelier wouldn't accept it, you know. They they they like the you know, it's that glory of taking that we're not gonna get that pot tonight. This is it, isn't it?

Llinos 13:41

Yeah, this is the thing. I mean, I don't last year when we were in the Montpellier wine fair, um, you asked a certain producer about, well, you know, would you consider um you know, have you considered cans? It's entry-level wine, you know, it's the cheaper wine we buy. Um he did look at you as though you spat in his finest vintage, you know. But he did, he was horrified. But this year I felt we were seeing more cans on stands, and I think when you asked the other producer, they you know that it was well, actually they came up with a goods, haven't they? You know, it's been done. So that's that's a big deal for us. It may not sound like a pretty big step, and that's French again.

Dylan 14:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're ahead of the game, they've already been putting wine in cans for a bit, um, but they're gonna to uh can some red for us from uh our Muscaday producer at the end of the Loire. So looking forward to those arriving next month. Um but it's just a can they've mastered the lining of the can. Yeah, I've heard that it's better, much better than what it was. Yeah, the lacquer that goes inside, which slightly so I'm perfectly happy. We've got a couple of samples here which maybe we'll crack in a minute, but one of those is South African.

Llinos 14:53

They've placed far away from me again. Out of reach. But yeah, but I've got the sharp part here because I've got two litres of a half.

Dylan 15:03

Is it one uh hang on, I can't see.

Llinos 15:07

It's a bagnum of rosy. Is it one and a half litres, yeah, yeah.

Dylan 15:12

But it's lined with water-based polymer or something. Yeah, the line in the lacquer on the inside is what is important that there's no reaction. So once again, you've got a vessel with no reaction, it's not gonna affect the wine. It is sealed in there. I wouldn't want to be keeping it for years and years, but one of the wines we have is a South African uh Shiraz Cabernet Sauvignon blend. Um I can see on the bottom it was filled in 2021. So I'm looking forward to trying that in a minute. Um, it's fine, shouldn't it?

Llinos 15:47

As long as it's it's not needing to age or anything.

Osian 15:50

No. Once it's gone in there, it's it should be ready to drink. And it depends what the winemaker wants. You know, if he wants to give away wines that are really young, might as well, you know, have them in cans.

Llinos 16:02

Yeah, absolutely.

Dylan 16:03

Because they don't want to age, do they?

unknown 16:04

No.

Dylan 16:05

No, no, no. That's it. They were made, ready to drink, in the can, drink them when you want.

Llinos 16:09

And there is some I can't remember the actual fact, but there is. Um dolls just wrecking the mics. Um, too close. Did you hear that can opening? That's yeah, a bit different to a cork popping. But um I can't remember the exact um, you know, the exact figure, but something like 85 or 90 percent of wines uh drunk within oh, cheers. Well done, I've got my wine, uh drunk within um or or on the same day or within five hours of purchase. Yeah. Yeah. So the the I think a background to this that we need to sort of remember is it's um the vessel when we're talking about that, the mass-produced wines are actually bought over here in bulk.

Dylan 17:00

Yeah, we were trying to look it up before. I think it's a lot higher, but it's at least 50% of your average supermarket wine comes into the country in bulk and is bottled. Which again, you've got a a a stainless tanker or a flexi tank. You know, we don't worry about how that wine has arrived there, yeah. And then we put it in a bottle, which normally is heavy, it's hard to recycle, and then we ship it around the country.

Llinos 17:29

Well, first of all, it lands in massive bottling plants, and then they have a couldn't as long as they stick to our laws, they have choices about do even can they blend it? They can bottle it as it is, but they can actually blend it as long as they're honest on the label about what it says. You know, if it says bottled in the UK or bottled for, it's come from one of those massive plants. We're talking, weren't we? Somebody who we know who works alongside somebody in one of these bottling plants, um, and they were saying, you know, oh, you know, God, they they they blend them, they just sort of yeah, they're they're asking different people on the factory floor basically, what do you think of that? What do you think of that?

Dylan 18:04

You know, that's well we we could go off and get get a you know blend it up for ourselves.

Llinos 18:09

And I mean we're we're not we're not saying there's anything wrong with this, but this is that because if if we're going down the really cheap wine route, that is the most sustainable way of doing it. You know, for for your mass produced for the market wine, um bringing it over in the tanker is far better than bringing bottles over the table. Why do you want to want that to change for the environment?

Dylan 18:36

Yeah. It might as well come in bulk and then be bottled, but why not into cans? But then, yeah, canned cans is yeah, an absolutely And so all the advantages of cans are about the the aluminium, the recyclability of aluminium, the lightness of aluminium. If I'm not wrong, it's half the CO2 effectively to put it in a can rather than a glass bottle along the way. So it's not to like talking of which this is a pretty good Sauvignon. So what we've got from the first can is a Sauvignon Blanc, bottled uh canned, canned at the end of the Loire. That was a slip canned uh the end of the Loire, our Muscadet producer, but also has some Sauvignon, uh, and they put this in, you know, it's the same wine that we can buy in bottles that we do sell in bottles as well. Same quality of wine, but it's in a can.

Llinos 19:42

How important is that container as long as it's keeping the wine well?

Osian 19:47

Yeah, and you know, I've heard that it does keep it really fresh and the aromatics, you know, disday. I think I've I've found sometimes when I open a bottle of white or something, it I don't know, sometimes it just doesn't stinky, I'm gonna say. Um whereas, you know, this one you know it's a souvenir onto it, it needs to be aromatic, but kept aromatic and fresh. So and it does that, doesn't it? The other thing that doesn't happen is the So a lot of bottles they have they get light strike, don't they?

Llinos 20:19

Oh yeah, the reduction. Oh no, light strike. Oh, as in yeah.

Osian 20:22

So when bottles, clear bottles are left out in direct sunlight or the ultraviolet affects the wine. That affects the taste and the smell.

Llinos 20:32

So your your your can is actually protecting a bit more, isn't it?

Osian 20:36

When you're thinking of all these sort of wines, like let's say the Rosé's Provence, they're all in clear, pretty big. Pretty pretty bottles.

Llinos 20:44

Yeah.

Osian 20:44

They're all clear.

Llinos 20:45

Yeah.

Osian 20:46

God knows where they've been.

Llinos 20:47

Yeah.

Osian 20:47

I found as well, do you know when you open a bottle of Corona?

unknown 20:51

Corona.

Osian 20:51

Do you know beer? What rose corona or that's in a clear bottle, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Sometimes you open it, it's like, oh, it stinks.

Llinos 21:00

Oh really? That's interesting. It could be light strike. I think I've had bottles with light strike. I get very funny about what gets put in the window, actually, don't I? Because I'm I'm worried about light strike. Yeah, we're very aware of that.

Osian 21:13

At the same time, people want us to see the colour too.

Llinos 21:16

Oh no, this is the difficulty, isn't it?

Dylan 21:18

Marco from the last pod's um last or last but one. So it's six, yeah. His rose from La Marca in Italy, dark, dark bottle, dark green bottle. Yeah, which is a shame because it's a vibrant, beautiful colour. The label is pink. You know, you don't quite see it on the shelf if you're not careful. But is that that's a winemaker who cares? That's yeah.

Llinos 21:39

So he's protecting his wine.

Dylan 21:41

And you know, a few of our uh sparkling producers are now their their roses uh in darker bottles. And um uh one um one of the more famous wines, Cristal, uh Louis Roser Cristal. That's why it comes in that yellow form. oil wrapping that's to block out the ultraviolet as I understand it. So people were aware of that.

Llinos 22:06

So you know we're talking we we mustn't talk about bottles as though it's the perfect vessel, must we? You know, I mean the the there's this thing about I mean what reaction do you get from people in the shop Osh when you know when you talk about cans and things? It's varied, isn't it?

Osian 22:22

Yeah I don't yeah it's difficult. Because when a lot of people ask for half bottles these days but they don't really work out as cheaper in a way because you know the manufacturing processes. So rather more expensive. Yeah. A lot of people come in they're like oh I want a half bottle of red or a half bottle I'm like well we you know we got cans.

Speaker 1 22:44

Yeah.

Osian 22:44

They they all come in 250 mil that's a large glass. Yeah. And that's probably what someone wants on a you know I mean this is this is they have a great advantage.

Dylan 22:53

Yeah you know waste it's sort of I mean not say not saying yeah no waste but not needing to limit my consumption on an average weekday but you know you bring the bottle home you take the cork out and that terrible danger just to finish it off when all I wanted was a small glass we could share a can or have a red and a white and shared it and all gone good.

Llinos 23:16

Because there's a huge amount of waste of wine in the country. I can't remember how many thousand well no hundreds of thousands of litres it is a year. And because people tend to and this may be a point to make actually people go I have the question very often ooh you know how long can I keep a wine well you could keep a wine for a month and still drink it. It's not going to taste very nice but I tell you what mine sits on the side of my cooker there and I use it to cook. I don't care if it's three four weeks old actually and then I will use that to cook Dole's grimacing he's the he's actually had loads of meals with vodka we won't we won't repeat his comments about my food.

Dylan 23:54

You know we're so hung up on it coming in a glass bottle with a cork and all that and I've just a bit of history I mean what did people used to get their wine out of uh I've been very lucky to yes well I was going to go back to Rome to start with and thinking I've been is it Herculaneum not Pompeii and you can see the wine bar there you can almost see the the wine chalked up at the back of the bar I mean literally this Roman site and the old amphora that they would have kept the wine in and they would have dished it out straight from there. But talking of goat bladders, pigs bladders, you know, whatever you had available to hold your wine you would have used it.

Llinos 24:35

Glass came along actually I remember years ago I mean I'm going back about thirty years when I went to Hungary and I was wandering around Budapest just sort of looking for somewhere to go for a drink and down these steps and they were ladling like it's full of old blokes. I remember feeling quite intimidated because I was on my own and they were all staring at me. And I thought no I'm gonna go for it. And um they it was like it was like those canteen tin things and they were lifting the lid off and they were ladling your glass of wine from that yeah it was vile. But there we go.

Dylan 25:08

I'm sure there's plenty of you out there that have been travelling in France you've gone to the local cooperative and people will take their five gallon plastic container down and there's like a petrol pump nozzle and they'll you know fill up your your container you put it in whatever you want. Not bad to start with but depends on the turn drink it quite quickly or but it might be your local bistro and they'll be serving it up for a week out of that container job done.

Llinos 25:36

Okay before we move on then so a can you know it's good because you get the right portion less waste carting it around the world is far better because it's not as heavy as bottle oh I have a little fact it's from it's from the rubbish podcast which is a really good podcast I listen to um they just talk about rubbish real rubbish um so they did they did aluminium cans a while ago I was listening to that 8% of the earth's core is aluminium it is costly and high in emissions to extract however it's really really recyclable they can even get it from if it's incinerated with loads of other rubbish they get it from the ash at the bottom they can take the aluminium out and recycle that and UK especially Wales is really good at recycling cans. The USA is appalling I mean it really is it's soul destroying to hear how how little they recycle it there but you know it's so expensive that people are keen to recycle it as well. So cans are good and I I have my own pigs bladder here.

Dylan 26:46

I'm not sure I was saying pigs bladder but not very sustainable that the tradition in uh the Basque country they have those uh is it called a botta you know that you drink your wine out of I think they're lined with something now but yeah that's what they would have been I'm a bit nervous of this because it's got a little it's got a thing that looks like a sheep's head on the side.

Llinos 27:08

Sinos has a a bagnum cut varrois en Provence Couvet Rose from MS.

Dylan 27:16

I thought it was going to spurt out bother with the light strike there so it's a it's a well it's a white and pink bag to peel something off the bottom so it's no no pop or anything. Little nozzle here now like a like I mean they all thought they were wine in a it's listen to that listen to that does anybody want some the only difference between wine in a box is it doesn't have the box. It's effectively what is inside. Yeah because when you open a wine in a box it's a bag yeah it's a bag it is a bag exactly so which does bring me on sorry I have to bring up I don't know if if you haven't seen Marcel Lukan French comedian doing a little spiel about wine in a can you should really uh try and uh find that on where is he a little bit of Instagram or whatever he's very funny you can put a link in the uh comment I can do that I'll put a link in for you yeah he thought we'd hit rock bottom with wine in a box yeah so we can have wine wine in a can I I I I will have an in-depth discussion with him one day and explain to him the benefits.

Llinos 28:28

I think we'll come back to the old wine in the can because after looking at the wine in a bag I mean it's that's pretty good it's really nice isn't it it wasn't cheap wine sixty it tastes like wine sixteen quid for one and a half litre so it's not dirt cheap is it?

Dylan 28:42

No you know that was the thing there was a I don't know that's the same company doing it for MS but they were called bagnum's and they went there was quality you know they went for burgundy in a bag and things like that you know so that's what they were trying to get over. Look it doesn't matter on the vessel it's about the quality of the juice that goes in that bag. I think the only the only problem with boxes and bags can be I don't think it keeps so long once it's been put in the bag.

Llinos 29:10

It keeps once you open it that's not a problem as long as you don't let the air in but the actual lining of the bags doesn't keep so well that was film don't recycle yeah that's what I was gonna ask now the trouble is you know I mean there there is this sort of there there are pluses and minuses of all of them but you can't recycle this however it's incredibly light it will have been really cheap to produce um one of the problems with wine in a bag or whatever is it will have a sell by date. You know this you've got until October is the best before on it. You've got until October this year. That's weird. So that's unlike the cans this week yeah yeah and now I've opened it I suspect it'll have on it somewhere once opened drink within one and a half hours okay yeah I can do that there's four of us that's that's that's reasonable. No you've got your two little cans over there I've got my big bag um yeah so you've got these have their place don't they and I I think it's a little bit as you're going well what do we want the wine for it's not a fine burgundy that you want to store I want a party I'm gonna have a party this spring I'd I'd I'd be alright with this. Yeah that's perfectly all right.

Dylan 30:31

A very typically very pale Provence rose hardly any colour to it at all.

Llinos 30:38

Because you can't see it which is a problem for people I want a very pale rose please you know so for this if you had a gang of people around um you'd be what are you doing dull? Does Jack want that much rosé?

Osian 30:57

No he wants to try the red that's well you want to try the red okay so what other any other vessels we could have our line in?

Llinos 31:05

Yeah but you know the pl plastic it isn't all bad. I mean if you if you listen to the old really rubbish podcast is his quite interesting actually they rank them and and plastic is not all bad they're saying well yeah however it's ultimately recyclable that one isn't as it happens.

Dylan 31:22

But a lot but it will be it will be in the future my dad for his whatever industrial designer was in early doors on plastics. He wasn't he 50 years ago he was well aware of the problems it could create but it was all about being able to recycle them. So it's all about knowing what sort of plastic it's made out of and plastic bags that you can take back to the supermarket are still a problem but it's coming. That on your rubbish podcast they were talking about how we're gonna uh recycle film and food packaging so it can be recycled reused for food wrapping so it it will come it is coming. It's about dividing up your different recyclables I mean the pélarage box that we bought that is a bag inside a box as you say you know theirs was all about the grape as well as the packaging wasn't it it was the Bronner grape which needed less water a pee wee variety a pee we variety okay um these modern crosses that need less input in the vineyard yeah which is important for these countries isn't it especially but that's that's their main concern in Pedlarge but yeah I'd be happy with that it's it's funny because they're so they're just such a lovely producer, such a lovely family and they've been organic for 40 years and they're very you know they're very aware of all the impact on the environment and everything. Trying to explain to them the idea of a wine in a can to really get across.

Llinos 32:50

What about presecco in a can? There's a problem with fizz in a can we're back to cans now aren't we? Yeah that it's not legal because of the pressure yeah well no they're just not allowed because of their rules.

Dylan 33:01

It's a bit like if you ever see prosecco on tap it is not prosecco you're not allowed to sell prosecco in a um what do you call it little plastic barrel you know denominator.

Llinos 33:15

So it's Italian rules it's EU rules okay although we uh intriguingly they didn't they don't I they do get it but I don't they're a bit yeah eventually all come.

Dylan 33:25

But we did meet a uh a lovely uh producer of um Lambrusco Lambrusco which many well some of you older people listening may think of as a hideous sweet red sparkling wine but actually when it's good it's good and they've been able to produce a can.

Llinos 33:48

Cambrusco Sam can brusco yeah beautifully packaged with a little burn so it needs to be 200 not 250 that is our rule here I think for sparkling wine perfect little little can of deep red slightly sweet sparkling wine that goes beautifully with your salami and and it wasn't too it wasn't at all sweet sweet was it and it had a little they were very amused with the Welsh word for blue tissue titutamos they were very amused their range of labels had birds on them so in Welsh Clinox was running through the Welsh names for birds.

Dylan 34:28

I don't think they really understood what you were on about she's just tweeting away there.

Osian 34:34

But the the other thing for cans as well is the aesthetic of it isn't it picnic aesthetic.

Llinos 34:40

Yeah you know people go in their picnics and they don't want to bring a big bottle and they can chill their cans really quick in the uh the the icebox or whatever throw it in the lake yes and it's while you have the little dip throw them in the edge it's not a rubbish disposal to chill not to chill just to make it quite clear and then recycle it yes yeah and then recycle it without that but we are that we are very good at recycling in Wales so yeah so you know that I we're back to aren't we is what's the vessel well actually rather than just oh this is what it should be they they all have their pluses and minuses what do you want it to do is the question isn't it what do you want it to do I want to go on a picnic I want to walk up Kadar I take a can you know I wouldn't want this in my rucksack going with Kadar. No big bag could attach my little camel back pop it by mistake. It looks like a Capri Sun I mean I am nervous I was nervous of it. Need a straw hole for it what's inside is perfectly alright isn't it you know yeah it's great wine.

Osian 35:49

So two well I've seen wine bottles that are actually plastic bottles.

Dylan 35:54

Right let's go onto those now flat ones I can't remember the name of the company they developed so they could actually fit through your letter box that's the thing so they could post wine out. I haven't seen them so much recently but I think I've seen the Paul Mas is it?

Osian 36:08

Yeah he's a French Paul Masson oh my gosh yeah no no it wasn't that no I think it's a like a quite a well known French producer that you see in the supermarkets I think it's got a picture of a heroin or something on the front.

Dylan 36:21

Anyway I I think I might be wrong anyway yeah but it I mean it's just packaging and you can fit more than I don't know how I feel about that.

Llinos 36:28

Yeah it's funny that looks a bit flat it's quite flat and it's we had one didn't we wasn't it Banrock station or something yeah possibly possibly the only thing I do you know worry about is uh microplastics and right that's one thing that has not been mentioned in any of these plants I'm gonna actually write to them and say you know you're talking about all the sustainability microplastics is one worry of mine. I mean I'm really avoiding trying to avoid getting tomatoes in a pack that's got because I just think these microplastics are a bit of a worry aren't they?

Osian 37:02

But I've heard there's microplastics in your glass bottles as well.

Llinos 37:05

There is yeah it's in your water so we do need to be thinking about reducing that don't we? And that's something that we can you know that that's something to factor in. I'll be interested to hear what people have to say about that.

Osian 37:18

But it does say you know it does say on the bottle made from recycled plastic. So I guess you know that's pretty good but I don't know how I feel about that one. Cans I can go because it's just a can. Cans aluminium can.

Llinos 37:34

And also we've got a paper bottle that Rounds for good gin is in a cardboard you see there's wine in the supermarkets in cardboard bottles. But what's the lining?

Osian 37:47

Yeah well effectively it's it's bag in a box is it's bag in box isn't it inside is a plastic bag and lining so actually one more thing I've had is a bottle but it's metal from Tesco I've never seen that Sicilian it looks like a water bottle but it's completely yeah aluminium and it's a full bottle.

Dylan 38:08

Yeah yeah yeah and it's why not yeah really good wine yeah like why not so why not?

Llinos 38:13

So maybe we can try the red yeah let's try the red that's excellent I haven't finished my rosy because I think red is so pale I might think it's white I don't know red wine's from a can I don't know why that's different.

Osian 38:24

You sort of feel it needs to mature in a bottle whereas white wines you know you chill them and then you just drink them maybe from the can.

Dylan 38:34

The chilling factor's a really good thing isn't it if you're talking about festivals and absolutely it's like the wine bully come on move on move on you see sorry so what I what's happened now is I've I've sort of gone too early but I've got a can of the Liberator Cabernet Sauvignon Shiraz New Blood and Chocolate produced by Dreyfus Ashby in South Africa Richard has gone he went big on cans. He has um a lot of different cans uh put together in South Africa to bring over which is great as I say I think it's difficult to see the print on the bottom but I think it's can 2021 so this is five years old and it's a big serious that's very good.

Llinos 39:36

You can smell cabinet I would challenge anybody to tell me if they were doing a blind tasting that that's come out of a can.

Dylan 39:45

I mean that you know that's a stonking wine I mean we do actually sell this in bottle as well it's a on our shelf it's £20 a bottle the can is six pound or six pound fifty in the shop so oh it's the same really it's the same price half bottles of yeah but if you want you know a good can of red wine a good glass of red wine what is wrong with that rather than the £20 bottle that you don't quite finish or you didn't because it is quite big I'd say it's £14.5% alcohol you probably don't want to knock back even between two of your whole bottle on a on a Wednesday night.

Llinos 40:23

I think we should sell them side by side yeah yeah no let's do a do a it's an interesting can you tell the difference we'll do it blind yeah yeah we'll get the bottles in the pod and we'll have the cans out and actually have them side by side do you know what though I mean as far as pubs go and everything yeah I'd I'll go back to my old story of when I was in the Peak district a few years ago on holiday and a pub we were having lunch in and I said looked at the wines weather glass oh Chianti I'll have a Chianti glass of Chianti and I swear that bottle had been open probably for two months it was dire. It was absolutely dire. And this is the problem when you when you have wines opened when it's busy isn't it and why why would you expect bar staff always in a pub to just know and or the the other side of it is when it's not busy.

Dylan 41:15

Or when it's not busy where we're selling cans to I mean we're selling them to the local rugby club. They have events on now and again they don't want to open bottles and have half of it left.

Llinos 41:26

They've got so and and it's just absolutely you know that it makes no sense to me when you've got yeah little cans if they're quality that's the key isn't it it's what you put in it.

Dylan 41:36

It's the juice that goes in and that is five years in that can and then it's superb fresh, doesn't it?

Llinos 41:42

Absolutely yeah that's amazing.

Dylan 41:45

Well done Richard great wine so uh so if we're concluding here you know do we care what the vessel is?

Llinos 41:56

I mean yeah if you've got a a burgundy you want to age for 20 years or something I think you'd like to obviously you've got but you know the environmental factors and the quality factor you know do we care what the wine's in or do we care more suiting what is it going to be used for? If you've got a busy pub it's so much easier to go click there we go there's two small glasses in that can for you or a large glass um and it's so much easier isn't it um or I'm going on a picnic I'm gonna take a can of wine I'm going on a walk I'm gonna take we do have some customers who um they they they go on their walk don't they and they they come and buy some cans and off they go you know and festivals.

Dylan 42:40

Yeah session dogathlai no glass yeah we f fill fill up a bucket of ice for them and they we bought a load of old crabbing buckets yeah and then we put our ice in them and they can choose their cans and take them off to keep cool in the in the it's always sunny for Session the music festival in Dorgethlai it's it's always sunny isn't it?

unknown 43:03

Yeah.

Llinos 43:04

But you know we're not we're not there going oh you know we want to have this very sophisticated wine tasting we just want something decent to drink.

Osian 43:11

Yeah sorry I'm laughing because Dull had his foot on the table again.

Llinos 43:14

Oh he's done nervous twitch sorry guys it's okay yeah so on the next one maybe we could just shackle him yeah I think so shackle his legs to the chair so we're going back to that in in health and just move me further away from the table. His eyes are widened you think I'm serious you're right Jack I am um but it yeah why why are we hung up on you know it was screw tops and corks we were hung up on the we're gonna get over this yeah and and people are gonna realise you know like like I say I I liken it too come on guys most of the wine that you're drinking the cheap stuff that comes over is being bottled in a it's coming over in a tanker it's been put into bottles just because you like opening the bottle you know and you're gonna get funny about Two hours. It's absolutely fine, yeah. Um we're not talking about our fine wines that have been kept for a long time. But think about what you want it for. Well, yeah, you never know, do you?

Osian 44:11

I've been to venues and they sell wine by wines by the can. And it's ideal. Safer, isn't it? Safer. Drop a can. It's like, ah, I don't know, it's just a can. Absolutely. Yeah. Whereas if it's a bottle, then obviously.

Llinos 44:26

You see, that's another factor, isn't it?

Dylan 44:28

When you're talking about yeah, I think that was one of the worst wine experiences in recent memory when we went to a music venue not to be mentioned in North Wales. And your and your wine came in a with a in a little plastic sort of glass cup and you peeled off the foil from the top. But it but again, in a way, it was terrible wine. I mean, that's the trouble. It gave a wrong impression. It could have been better wine, maybe, but I I did do cans once on the tally and uh I went to uh a major supermarket uh to buy some samples, and one of the cans was shocking, I mean I have to admit that. But then it was something like £1.50. Yeah, yeah. It was absolute rubbish.

Llinos 45:12

Um but we've equally had shocking wines from bottles. Exactly. But it was I mean the peeling the foil top of the plastic cup. I mean, I would prefer a can. It wasn't very nice, was it? But I'm quite open too. I thought, oh no, okay, then as long as what's in it's okay. God, it was dreadful. You know, I'd rather not drink it, to be honest.

Osian 45:31

Um But the yeah, the majority of people like producers aren't going to put crappy wine in their cans. They're gonna be the same wine that they put in their bottles. Yeah, but it's just in a can.

Llinos 45:41

Absolutely.

Osian 45:42

So there we are. Absolutely. And we'll be happy to take it.

Llinos 45:44

Yeah, I would do you know what? I'd be really interested to hear what people have got to say. Just send us a message or um if you've had a good experience or a better thing. Yeah, yeah, you know, and and you have to remember a little bit like what you buy in the bottle, um it's not always reflected by price, but you've you know, this is the trouble, is yeah, you you've got to get the good stuff, haven't you? Um and and that's what's important really. But also matching that to what do I want to do? You know, um, do I want to have a can at home? I'm on my own tonight, and or am I going to a festival or am I going to and match it to what you need it for, the practicality of it.

Osian 46:26

Cans are here to stay. Cans are here today.

Llinos 46:30

We have talked about having a can party. Um we're gonna call it call it get canned.

Osian 46:36

Yeah. And on that bomb show.

Llinos 46:40

Danny Mindy, the Elfie Power Bombrando, thank you very much for listening again. Um, remember, we'd love more questions or suggestions, and if you can leave us a review, that would be great. Um, and um think more about the vessel that you're drinking your wine from.