Why You Should Never Take "No" for an Answer

👉Download Morks Guide to Resilience:  https://aa5c-ea.systeme.io/resilience

🌟 Hire Patrick to speak about Purpose, Resilience and the world of startups:  https://patrickmork.com/speaking

Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered.

Today’s guest is a woman who went from growing up during war in Lebanon to leading multi-country business turnarounds across Europe. 

Nay Tawile didn't just survive conflict; she used it to build a level of grit that most people can't even imagine. She started as an engineer in biology, broke into sales against every stereotype, and now sits in the CEO seat, transforming Trimo, a legacy industrial business in Slovenia.

In this episode, we talk about the "double-proof" factor for women in leadership, the radical independence her father taught her at age nine, and why she actively seeks out the hardest challenges she can find. 

This is a conversation about courage, career pivots, and what it takes to really earn your place at the top.

Episode Chapters:

[01:12] Normality in a War Zone 
[03:41] Breaking the "Marry a CEO" Stereotype
[12:32] The Path to Financial Independence 
[21:15] From Biology to Business 
[28:40] "I Hate Engineers" 
[34:50] The Double-Proof Factor 
[45:01] Mastering Active Listening
[57:35] The "Hard Things" Motto 
[01:02:13] Processing Failure and Guilt

#Leadership #Resilience #WomenInBusiness #CEOJourney #CareerPivot #MorkUnfiltered #Grit

If this episode moved you or gave you a different lens on adversity and growth, I want to invite you to go deeper.

I wrote Step Back and Leap for people exactly like us. People building through chaos. People trying to find meaning inside uncertainty. People choosing purpose over comfort. You can get it here:
 https://a.co/d/e4nd8RT

And if you want practical tools you can use today to strengthen your resilience, I created a short, tactical guide you can download immediately. It’s called The Mork Guide to Resilience and it is designed to help you build inner strength, recover faster, and lead from a grounded place:
 https://aa5c-ea.systeme.io/resilience

Because sometimes the most powerful leaps forward start with stepping back, grounding yourself, and reconnecting to why you are here in the first place.

— Patrick

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

No government, no one will actually save you except yourself.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

What do we take for granted in the West when we have this degree of peace?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

If I do my job well, they'll give me a raise, they'll promote me, I'll I'll get recognition. It's not true.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

What kind of habits or rituals did you develop from those times that that serve you today, now when you're under pressure?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I was trapped in this for years, and I had to save myself at some point in time. But for all these years, I believed that I could change it.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered, folks. Today's guest is a woman who went from growing up during war in Lebanon to leading multi-country business turnarounds across Europe. She started as an engineer in biology, broke into sales and business against every stereotype, built markets across Africa and the Middle East, ran full PLs in the Netherlands, and now sits in the COC, transforming a legacy industrial business in Slovenia. This is a conversation about courage, career pivots, resilience, and what it takes to really learn your place at the top. This is Mork Unfiltered, and this is Ne Tawili. Welcome to the show, Nate. Night.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Thank you, Patrick. Thank you very much. I don't know that person. She seems interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Ah, she's fascinating. She's fascinating. We're so happy to uh to have you here together. Uh Na, you have a fascinating career and we have a lot to learn from you. So I want to jump in from your early roots because you have a very unusual background. You grew up in Lebanon. So tell us a little bit, what was that like and and how did that shape your character and and kind of how you view the world as a person?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, that's that's an interesting part, and that's actually something that did shape where my am I I am today. I was born during the war.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

And I grew up during the war until age of 10. It was my normality then. I think that must have been much more difficult for our parents who knew non-war, but for me that was normal. So we could go to school, not go to school, get stuck in an underground shelter, face uh yeah, unexpected bomb bomb bombarding, and then you had to you develop your own, you develop your own reflexes. Where's the safest place in an apartment or in a house? Where do you have to hide that? You you develop those things. You only realize until you're an adult that these things are normal. Reality is we school was normality. Going to school meant everything is okay, things are fine. We we somehow, unlike current generations, fought to go to school, no, fought to learn. And and nobody was here to protect us. So you you learn from a very early stage that only thing that really matters and the only way you you will get through is yourself and your loved one. I grew up in a very loving family, very connected, very close, extremely loving family. I think this this is very important in whoever's life and career to hold very dearly to people you love because this is actually your safety boat in any situation. And this was actually extremely important. So that and the fact that you actually realize that no government, no one, no one will actually save you except yourself and and your your your core. And this really shapes a person's determinations and um fighting mode. And then of course you add a second level to this. I'm a woman. Uh and Lebanon is an advanced country in the Middle East, but it's still very oriental and traditionalist. So women are, of course, they they study, they work, but this is like uh a social, it's it's it's it's a social thing, and and what's more important for a woman is to marry well, to marry the rich man or to marry the CEO or to to you know marry well and grow a family and take care of the the social life and the children and the family. But they don't teach you to be the CEO, to marry the CEO. So I I I must say I was good at school and I always wanted to, I had this very deeply that I wanted to prove that I can do it. I can I can be. I don't need to be someone else's. I can be myself and I have to do it myself. I had also very great role models in my family. My dad and my mother. My mother didn't finish school, but she's now an entrepreneur and she has three um interior design stores, well, decoration and interior design stores there because she had to fight to feed the family and to help my dad and to get us through the difficult times. So I I had fantastic, hardworking role mothers fighting to save their family and make sure that we get put food on the table and are growing up in good conditions and in a comfortable life as much as we could and with less disturbance as possible. So all these elements, I think I didn't organize them in a proper way, but all these put together somehow shapes shapes, you know, my my ambition and my determination to do something, be someone and do it for myself.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

What do you, I mean, for for most of us, especially here in America, you know, you I don't know, it's inconceivable to live in a war zone, right? To to to live in a place where there is active conflict, uh, like you did in Lebanon, like people are living every day in Ukraine, like people lived for the better part of a year in Gaza. I mean, we most of us cannot imagine what that is like. What do you think, now that you know you live in a complex, you know, Slovenia, as far as I know, no major disturbances, you know, wars, what do we take for granted in the West when we have this degree of peace? What do we take for granted? What are the things that people struggle with in a war-torn country, which we have no idea of? And more importantly, how do you how do you stay resilient in a situation like that? Like what what kind of coping mechanisms or rituals or support structure helped you through those years?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Well, this is a good question. Everything is taken for granted. From running water to electricity to fridge, there has been times where we were eating uh potato sandwiches. So, you know, with olive oil and garlic. Very good, I must say. Yeah, so everything really, you know, having to wash yourself with, you know, you boil some water with gas and then you just wash yourself. I mean, everything, you take everything for granted. Going to school safely, um, and still I lived this as a kid, and that what was normal for me. I think that must have been even harder for our parents, you know. Just the fact that back then there was no cell phones and all these things, right? So and my dad was somehow involved, foot.

unknown 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And you have your you are close to the how do you call this, you know, the the war lines. Sure, the front lines. You know your dad went to the other side or went to do something, and you don't know if he's gonna come back, and you don't know if you're gonna see your dad or your your parents safely when someone leaves the house. So all these things are taken for granted. People also expect, especially in Europe, maybe less in the US, especially in Europe. Spent uh I'm French, also I became French. I I studied in France then and moved to France. And in those countries, people don't realize the amount of safety nets they have all around them, government institutions.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

It's a very strong safety net and system that you have around that doesn't exist actually. So somehow it makes you really more rely on your own self and and yeah, what I was saying, your clothes ones, rather than relying on government systems, yeah, institutions, uh all sorts of mechanisms that exist today to you know allow people to live normal life. So the best and and then when you have no choice and you have no safety net, you have no way other than moving forward. You don't actually think because first of all, I didn't know what peace, yeah. We had times of no conflict or uh how do they call this in English?

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Uh truce, yeah, like a truce. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

So when they stop, yeah, when they ceasefire.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Ceasefire.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

And so you know what it is like to be because then life is normal, you are not hidden all the time. Surprisingly, what people don't know is that you do have a life. You do go to school and go out, you have to compose with ceasefire, with but you you do have a life actually. So normal life was as normal as it could be. But I grew up doing this and that was normal for me as well.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Uh which what kind of what kind of habits or rituals did you develop from those times that that serve you today now when you're under pressure?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Yeah. Uh this gives you a huge level of resistance to stress and anxiety, this is for sure. I mean, seeing me not able or very stressed or not able to cope with the complex or stressful or whatever type of or conflicting or whatever kind of situation is very, very rare.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

And if it can happen that uh I can sometimes get angry, but it's calculated kind of anger. It's never it never really gets me. It's very hard to really get in because you know you've experienced so much, you know how bad things can be that that you have this resilience and resistance or very high tolerance bar. Exactly, exactly threshold that allows you to cope very easily in very high stress situations.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

But is there something specific that you've learned to do or to think or a ritual that you use when you're under a lot of stress?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yes, not stressing on things that are not under your control. This is something that you really learn. Yeah. Yeah it means things that are not under your direct control or responsibility. It is totally useless to stress out about or react about or even focus or put energy in.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

This is something you really develop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Okay. Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

It depends on on what you can control, where you can go, where you can have, what yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

What and and aside from that, uh, what else? Are there other kinds of rituals or or techniques, or maybe do you have like a support group of particular people or mentors or advisors that you turn to?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Well, throughout my career, I did have, and this is important, especially for a woman. So it is not related, let's say, to my my childhood or growing up. My dad was the very first one, definitely. If I want to start, my dad was the very first one. He used to tell me, and which is unusual in in this part of the world, and with a woman, a little girl I was back then, used to tell me I was nine, and I remember this very well. Between nine and twelve, we used to go for walks, and and he used to tell me, I don't want you to be dependent on any man in your life. Not me, your father, not any husband or any man. It's very important that you are free and you are economically or financially independent, and you can you are not stuck in situations that that that you cannot move out of because you depend on someone. And that's that's that's one of the key building blocks of uh who I am and who I've become. And this is really thanks to him. It's the very first thing that that really mattered and that really built who I am today. And coming from an oriental man back then, it's quite unusual.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Is is there I can never thank him for that.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Is there, I can certainly see why he would have taught you that. I can see where a lot of parents, a lot of fathers would want their daughters to be like that. And that in today's uncertain world where there's so much so much change, I can see that as a real asset. Is there a downside to that? And if so, what is the downside to that?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Trusting men.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

You said it, not me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, as as somebody who works with leaders and as you know, somebody who's kind of like intimately into psychology, that's what I suspected. But it's interesting that you say that. Trusting trusting men, right? In in in a business context, in a personal context, in a friendship context.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Not in business context.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Not in business context.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Business, it did not, well, it did not have any impact whatsoever in whatsoever in business context. But in when it touches personal, yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Yeah, I can understand that.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

I can understand. Yeah, it's uh that must that must make that must make relationship building challenging.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yes. Not friendship, not professional, but deep personal. Uh you know, I I heard it it doesn't come from me, but it is something that really resonates very strongly because I experienced it. I got married twice. I have an ex-husband. And uh she someone asked her, Do you have she's also a CEO, do you have a recommendation for young women who want to become a CEO? And what what is it that's that that would facilitate uh career? Because there's so many obstacles for a woman, especially also when when they have families and they have children, which I I don't have. And she said, choose wisely your husband.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

And it is so true. It it can feel so outdated and archaic, but it actually isn't. In today's world, if a woman isn't freely supported by whoever the man is living with her, yeah, uh, and really supporting the career and the development without putting any ego or any that makes a massive difference.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's interesting that you say that because I remember uh when I was at Google, the chief marketing officer at Google, who is still the same woman today, she's been in that role forever. I went to her house once and I met her husband, and her husband is a stay-at-home dad. And it's amazing. It was amazing for me to see, first of all, it was amazing for me to see a stay-at-home dad because particularly in the United States, they're not that common, at least in at that level of business.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Even in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah, and I imagine so. And but it was it was also amazing to see how supportive he was and how understanding he was, and how he could still retain his masculinity and be strong for her and be very understanding and supportive. And, you know, it's exactly what you said. That is one of the most important decisions that you will make. The flip side is, you know, I've I've come across a number of podcast interviews lately where, you know, they they interviewed very successful men and they said the same. They said the most important decision that you will make is actually your your wife. Picking the right woman can make all the difference. And if you look to some of the most successful men, at least some of the ones in the United States, they're extremely well married. They have very strong, they have very strong uh relationships, they have very strong marriages. So it's interesting that you would say that. And I think, you know, we we we live as a as a single guy living in Miami. Oh my God, let's not, let's, let's not go there or generalize. It is hard to find the right person. It is hard to find the right person. It's interesting because, you know, one of the tools that I use with the with the CEOs that I work with as an executive advisor is called the baseball card. I think maybe you and I talked about in our last call, but um it's basically kind of a snapshot of the person where we look at not just their leadership capabilities, but we also look at their personality, their saboteurs, their values, everything else. And it was funny because as I developed that tool to work with with uh with executives, I started using that tool in a personal capacity to understand myself better better in a dating landscape. And I found that it was incredibly helpful because when you have a deep level of self-awareness about yourself, you start to understand that some members of the opposite sex, even though they might look good on the surface, are absolutely the wrong match for you. But it requires a pretty high degree of self-awareness and introspection to understand that. And it's it's actually what I found is as you get old, as you get older, you start to realize oh, I may find this particular person very attractive, but because of what I've seen with this, this, and this, they're totally not a good friend for me. And it does have a massive impact on your career if you make the wrong choice, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

And this, you you're only aware of this as you grow up or more mature. When we're young and we marry young and we are absolutely not aware of those things, this is something they should teach us at school.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

They should. They should. Instead of teaching us, you know, certain useless courses that you learn in high school or in university, they should teach us that they should teach us about you know relationships.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

They should teach us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

You know, but but but going back to uh you know your your career and what you studied, you know, one of the things that I was very surprised is, you know, you studied engineering in biology, right? And food processing. Oh, where did that come from? Like what where where how did you end up studying engineering in biology and what influenced you to study that of all things?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Okay. So I wanted to make, I wanted to actually I have no idea. I had no idea what it what I wanted to be. I had no idea back then. I think they forced um children or or teenagers to make a choice at a certain age where it's very difficult to choose because you have no idea. And then I was all I was good in scientific uh studies, mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc. I was passionate about chemistry and biology, it's really something I was really good at.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Uh I I in Lebanon I was in a French system type of school, so I I I went through the French baccalaureate.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

And in the French baccalaureate, you choose, you know, uh specialty, scientific or literature or economy. And I chose scientific studies because it was the more generalist actually way. You get easily you get taught that if you don't know, you can make a choice later, but then don't put yourself already, don't limit your options already from the very beginning. So going scientific open leaves the options open because you can pivot and you can shift.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

And so then I decided you chose flexibility because you weren't exactly sure what you wanted. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yes, exactly. I chose flexibility. I knew I wanted to, I I was very good at and really liked science. So of course I did go that way. But on top of that, more important was the flexibility would allow me to make sure it will delay my choice to later. And then as I applied to engineering schools, I knew I wanted to study engineering because for the same reason engineering is all about science, and it keeps a lot of doors and options open because you can shift from engineering to business, you can't do the opposite. And this I I was aware of that. And at the end, this is what I did finally. I did at some point in time, I studied, I did study uh biology, and then I specialized in food agroindustry, food processing more specifically. This is the the the very last bit of specialization I had. And then I started my career in I worked for a chocolate, I worked in in cheese and then in chocolates. I was in R D and then in in the production, so as a process engineer to work on improving uh some of the production processes. I started in that and then I realized that no, there was something missing. I love the technical aspect of things, but it doesn't bring fire in me. I I was I realized when I was 22 or 23 that actually I wanted to be in business. And I did you realize that later? I'll I'll get to this. So I could make this shift later, but if you if I had chosen from the very beginning non-scientific studies, I couldn't have gone and I and then I would say, Oh, I would I would love to work in a lab, I would love to do R and D or whatever. I couldn't shift from I don't know, business or history or whatever back. Probably in the US, this is more easy to pivot on this, but in Europe and in France precisely, um it is much more processed. You can't actually shift easily uh based on what your background and your education is. So I had to keep all those options open.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

So that's how I actually ended up in this, and then I was uh working for this chocolate company.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

High-end premium chocolate, very, very good for chocolate lovers. Right um, and I was in in the process side. I was I was uh taking the train with uh the assistant of the commercial director back then, and he was such a character, he was a fascinating person. He was my let's say mentor after my dad. Back then he was over 60, he used to smoke the cigar and he had this very loud voice and very traditional, very charismatic. Strong leadership. And I I used to hear all those stories, but uh, you know, developing the business, and it was actually it's a B2B brand selling to chefs, five-star hotels, Nissan Star restaurants, uh high-end pastry and chocolateries. So it's a B2B product that is sold to premium products as well. And this was fascinating for me. I was hearing all those stories. I said, I want this. And then I found out that they were they were looking for someone for the Middle East. They wanted to develop the Middle East, and they were looking, they were looking for a for a young sales expert, you know, manager. And I managed to get the assistant with whom I was taking the train every day to work with to get me an appointment with him.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

How did you find the courage to do that? Because you did you did something that was very interesting, right? So you started off your career, you know, in the sciences, in engineering, and you're doing process optimization, you're doing research, you meet this guy. He's very interesting, he's very charismatic, you start to develop an interest in business. But did you feel any sense of fear or apprehension at potentially moving from engineering into sales? And if so, what did you oh you didn't? Okay. You felt no fear.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I I knew, I knew I had it in my gut. I I felt this is for me. This is for me. I want to get it.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

So you instinctively felt that?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yes. And this happened to me all along my career. This is at some point in time, and this is an advice I always give to young people, and especially women. You can't wait for things to come to you. You have to go and get it. Yeah, you have to know, you have to feel it, and then you have to go and get it. Don't think, don't overthink, because if you start overthinking, then it it won't happen.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And it will not come to you. It is wrong to think, and it is a bias most women have. Yeah, if I do my job well, they'll give me a raise, they'll promote me, um, I'll I'll get recognition. It it's not true. It's you have to fight for it.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

You have to go out and get it. Yes. But you also have to listen, you also have to listen to your gut feeling, right? If your gut feeling tells you, this is what excites me, this is what I want to do, I have, I know I can do this, I believe that I can do this, you gotta go out and make it happen, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Exactly. I knew the product inside out because I was making it. I I know I knew how I would I would have to sell it. It was a way for me to connect my story, Middle East. I speak the language, I know the culture. Um, I've traveled all my life back and forth between Lebanon and France. And so all of it seemed to me completely natural. That was for me. So, but of course, they didn't have the same impression. So I I went to his office, I knocked on the door, and she arranged the appointment for me. And then I went there and then I explained to the guy, okay, this is it. I I know there's a position. Um I would like to uh take this job. Uh so then he listens to me, and then he looks at me like this, and then he tells me I was 20 how old was I? 24 back then, still very young. I look younger than my age, and I I had a really very baby face. So I I looked really younger. And he looked at me like this, you know, with his guy, and then he said, Okay, first of all, you're an engineer. I hate engineers that cannot happen in today's world anymore. So, first of all, you're an engineer. I hate engineers. Secondly, you're super young. How old are you? Do you still live with your parents?

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

And thirdly, you're a woman. I'm looking for a guy to go to the Medodi. So, what the hell are you doing in my office? Tell me what happened.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Wow. And and how did you how did you convince him?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

I told him, give me a chance. I'll make a study, I'll make a market study, and I'll show you. And you shouldn't take no for an answer. This is one other thing I learned. You shouldn't take the first no as an answer. And so he said, okay, do it. I mean, why not? So I made this market study, and I I I prepared everything and I sent it to him. And then eventually I got a second meeting, and he he took the risk. And it is a risk he took. He could have said no, he could have, you know. I mean, I was so young, I had no sales experience, no sales education, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Only thing I had is this very strong determination to take the job and the fact I spoke the languages, but this is totally unusual. And this is why I say it's my second mentor, because without him having giving me this chance, yeah, I wouldn't be here today.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Some of the some of the best people that I've ever hired didn't have the experience. I remember when I was at Google, we were building a marketing team to launch Google Play, and we had to hire an assistant brand manager. And uh and we saw a lot of resumes. It was very competitive. A lot of people want to work at Google. And finally, I got the resume of this, you know, this like six foot four African-American guy who was working in investment banking. He had no experience in technology, no experience in marketing, no experience in branding, no experience in content. And yet when we met him and we interviewed him, the whole team loved him. He was smart, he was fun, he was a great people person, very creative. And even though part of us was like, man, this guy has no experience in marketing, like none. We hired him and he ended up being one of the best hires that we've that we ever made, and and one of the best hires I I ever made. And so sometimes, you know, it's it's not about the experience that is on the resume, it's about the person, their passion, their drive, their values. So I can totally see how it happens. That's fascinating. And so, okay, so you spend a couple of years at Valjona, you learned sales, you learn marketing, and then of course I learned marketing.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

One of the things he did is for me to learn, he told me, I'm gonna travel with you first time to teach you the job. And then he actually cancels. And he calls, knew exactly, he deliberately did it, and he knew exactly what he was doing because he called the distributor back then. It was my first trip was supposed to be to Greece, and and that person is is also one of the persons I've I personally value a lot. The distributor was a woman, and it was her company, and she was doing a great job, and she was the the the most important. So Greece was part, it was actually not only Middle East, Middle East and Mediterranean area. Greece was part of the area, and it was the most mature market of this region. So he calls her and he said, Look, I'm sending you this girl. Just give her a hard time, just see what she has in the in the stomach.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Okay. Wow. Okay. So how so she she so she tested you? How did she test you? How did she give you a hard time?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

She tested me, but she was one of the most amazing persons. I she taught me everything as well. She taught me everything as well. I have a lot of respect for this woman. So this is exactly how I learned. And then, you know, by experience, you you learn and you develop, and then I I grew the region and and and I did uh I did a good job there. It was it was a fantastic time of of my life because I was so young and now I realized how lucky I was back then. I I had the very miserable salary, I didn't care because it was all about my business travels, everything was I was going to five-star hotels, I was eating in Michelin star restaurant, everything was about all about, you know, extremely luxurious environments.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

It was one of the best times of my life.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

What was the then I what was the most valuable thing that you learned in that early role on sales, now that you look back on it?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

That's a good question. You need to remember that okay, I was a woman, super young, blonde, and I had to develop the Middle East. So Saudi, UAE, uh all those countries, no Jordan, uh then of course North Africa, uh, Morocco, Tunisia. And first impression, they wouldn't take me seriously. Nobody was ever taking me seriously as a first impression. I was, you know, that I didn't fit the perfect sales manager for that region at that time. So what I actually learned and developed and displaced is an extreme you have to double prove yourself so that you get the respect of the people and and and appreciation. So you don't get the trust of the people a priori.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And you have to be maybe twice as knowledgeable, hardworking, organized, um, delivering what you promise as what a man would have to do to be actually taken seriously and recognized. And this is one of the first things I learned. So know your products, know your numbers, master your your speech and know exactly where you want to go and be extremely professional. Do what you say, say what you do.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

What did you tell yourself mentally during those times when people doubted you repeatedly because you know you were a young woman in a sales role in the Middle East?

SPEAKER_00 31:01

I I never um I never fall in that.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

My brain, I have a lot of self-awareness. I'm aware, I analyze all the time things I say afterwards, and then I I construct what I should have done differently or not done, etc. But I never auto-punish myself. You know what I mean? I mean I will never underestimate your mind, doubt myself. I can analyze and say this was good, this was bad, you have to improve this, but I don't let these things get me. Probably this comes from I don't know where this comes from, honestly, but maybe the faith my parents had in me, or what I mentioned from the very beginning, the fact that you can only count on yourself, the very strong faith and love and trust box in which family box in which I grew up, that was my backbone. And never I doubted myself. Not that I not that I'm pretentious or not at all. No, but you just I acknowledge I make mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

I will acknowledge I make mistakes, but I will not auto-punish myself. I will try to do best the next time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

So it sounds like you're you have a lot of you have a very strong sense of self-belief and you are also very self-aware, right? What what would you have? I'm I'm curious about something else. Are you religious or spiritual?

SPEAKER_00 32:27

I'm Christian. I I believe. I don't practice a lot, but yes, I believe. When I pass in front of a church, I will enter and have a prayer.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Did that ever have any kind of influence in in your life or your outlook in terms of facing adversity?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

I never looked at it in this way, to be honest. I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Just curious. What would you what and when you when you say that you would kind of analyze and think about the things that you did wrong and how you could do better, did you ever seek to write those things down? You know, some some people that I work with, they journal a lot. Like my son does that. You know, he's learning how to trade. And and one of the habits that he's developed, which is incredible for a young man, is that every night after a full day of trading, he will sit down for a half hour and literally write all his trades and all the mistakes that he made and what he learned from every single mistake, right? Which is an extreme, particularly for a young person. But did you ever do something similar in that respect? No.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

I'm just curious. Just curious.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

No, it turns in my brain. It turns a lot.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

So you process it. Yeah, you think about it a lot. You think about it a lot. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

In the night.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

At night, okay. Are you able to sleep?

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Not only, no, not only at night. There are moments where I need complete silence. And then this is where it's, for example, when I drive to work, I have 30 minutes. I don't put on music, I don't listen to podcasts, I don't listen to some people do that. They need noise permanently.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Music, they can't bear silence. I need total silence, and this is where it processes, but it processes in. I don't have to put it out. In the plane, in airport. The fact that I travel a lot helps because when you travel, you're alone. And this, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Yeah. I see that. It's it's very interesting that you make that comment because I think we live in a society where people are constantly distracted. And, you know, it's our phones, it's our podcast, I'm an audiobook, blah, blah. You know, you're always doing something. And to your point, you know, one of the things that I started doing a lot on my own, and then, you know, I was also, you know, when I work with with executives or when I when I do leadership workshops, I encourage people to develop what I call thinking time, which is at least once or twice a week to go to your calendar and literally block off an hour where you meet with yourself. There's no meeting, but on your calendar, it looks like you're meeting with somebody. And you you block that meeting for yourself and you give you, you assign yourself a question. So you say, for example, all right, um, you know, today from 4 to 5 p.m., I'm going to think about my team. And I'm going to think about who do I have on my team and are they in the right roles? And am I measuring them the right way? And who are we missing on the team? And what do we need on the team? But if I don't do that, it does not happen, right? But it's a moment of silence where I find a question that I need to solve that's not maybe urgent, but it's important. And I I box that time in my calendar physically, right? So it's interesting. And it sounds like when you're in the car, you kind of that's kind of your space that you box for you to think about whatever you need to think about.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yes. And that's why I really like people asking, oh, you commute, you you have 40 minutes uh to work and then 40 minutes back. Isn't this wouldn't you say no no? I need this time. In my previous job, I was only 15 minutes away between where I my my office and uh when I was going to the office. And this was very painful for me because I didn't have enough time to to go through this.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

And this is this is my me time as you were mentioning. Actually, it's the car. I turn off I there's no radio, there's no podcast, there's nothing. I'm just driving, and then this is where part of your mind is focused driving, and then the rest is is working. And it's it's the same when I'm in the airport or in the plane. There are moments in the plane where you have to shut off, you know, phones, computers, and these deconnection times very important for me to do this work, which what exactly what you are mentioning, to do this work and do this uh introspection and thinking and analyze. Reminding yourself of the priorities, what's actually important, or what is noise and and useless?

SPEAKER_03 36:45

All these all how much more important does that thinking time become when you shift from a functional role to all of a sudden managing a business, right? So let's fast forward a bunch of years, all of a sudden, you know, you're at Garefloor, you're you're you're you know, you have responsibility over an entire business. How did that change? And and what did what kind of new skills did you have to learn when you switch from more of a sales and marketing role to all of a sudden managing a PL?

SPEAKER_00 37:14

What changes? A lot of things change. A lot of things change, and you actually learn the hard way. Management and leadership are given to you usually as a promotion because you are a good expert or you did your function in a very good way, but it it's actually a job by itself. It requires different sets of skills and different sets of uh competences and different levers that you have to activate. When you were working alone or only working with experts and functions, it's not the same set of skills as when you are you need to keep this helicopter view long term. Uh keep focus on what's important, but at the same time make sure that execution framework is in place. And this is one of the most important things because you are not anymore in one function or one set of functions, but you want to achieve things, and to achieve those things, you need to have the direction where you want to go. But you also need to know how this is gonna be executed. It's even more important that where you want to go, and then how it will be executed doesn't mean just managing tasks, right? But how you will gonna get the buying from the people, how are they gonna align, how are they gonna how can we make sure that things are actually moving forward, that there is a proper alignment routine, empowerment, etc. etc. So you actually learn the hard way because I I didn't learn this at school, no? Management, leadership, all those things.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

What what what was the hardest skill for you to learn when you made that shift from functional to kind of managing director role?

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Active listening. Can you explain? Yes, people usually talk and they have something to say, and they don't really listen to what they're being told.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

And some people listen and already think about answering back. They think about the answer. This is not what we call uh active listening. It's not actually answering, it's actually understanding what people are actually meaning, where they're they they're going, to understand at which standpoint they are and how you're gonna help them maybe build the bridge to where you you wanna go or understand the the root of a situation and really constructively think of a solution without having already the answer in your mind. And this is a mistake everybody, and I still do, but for me, this is one of the most powerful tools to understand, actively listen, acknowledge, and construct and build not only with sometimes the idea you have in mind you need to, you know, go through and then you have to connect the people to it and under understand where are the gaps and how you're gonna connect them too. But sometimes you really don't know, and people expect you to know everything. But the only way you can find the proper solution is because they always have it. It's to bring this approach of active listening and and building it together with them without having the preconceived idea or solution.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Right. Yeah, it's unintense. Absolutely, absolutely, you know, it's um so active listening kind of just for those in the audience, you know, is is really it's kind of the art of listening very intently and very deeply to the person while they're talking, but also not just listening to what they are saying, but also trying to listen to what they're not saying, right? And and also kind of like, you know, 70% of communication is nonverbal, actually, it's higher. And it's so it's really kind of like observing the other person, trying to see how they're reacting, trying to see if there's any gestures or things that they're making, if there's any kind of like movement of the eyes or mouth, et cetera. And then, of course, one of the one of the virtues of active listening is asking open-ended questions as opposed to closed-ended questions, which is a mistake people commonly make. You know, it's like, are you gonna hit your sales targets this this month? Yes or no, right? That doesn't give me any information, right? But if I, if you know, what kind of challenges are you seeing in the market and how is that going to impact sales? It's a similar question, but you would listen a lot more information. It's interesting that you mentioned that because I see that a lot, especially with a younger generation, because people are always talking and people feel that if they're not talking, they're not being heard and they're not important and they're not significant. And so actually, when I do, when I do when I do leadership work and workshops, active listening comes up over and over as a topic that people really need to work on. I wish that I had been taught that much earlier. I wish that people had taught me about active listening in my marriage. It probably would have helped me quite a lot. So, so yeah. So active listening, I totally, I totally, I totally hear you. That that's uh that's a work in progress. I am constantly striving to get better at that. And people tell me I've become a better listener. I was a terrible listener when I worked at Google. I was I that came out in my first performance review that I was not listening, I would interrupt people. I was like on my phone or doing three other things while people were talking, so that I wouldn't, I wouldn't hear what they said, so I'd have to ask them again. So they felt horrible because they felt I didn't answer, you know, I wasn't paying attention. So yeah, active listening, absolutely critical. And so then, so you'll you fast forward, you you you go to Gareflor, right? You spend a number of years in Gareflor, and then you know, from Gareflor, you went on to be managing director at Anjuline. Is that pronounced correctly? Anjuline? Yes. In Paris. And there and there you were running a PL for 16 European subsidiaries. What was that like? And and how was that challenge from a leadership perspective different? And also from a career perspective, why did you leave Gareflor to then go to Anjou Line? But what was the attraction there? Why why did you want to make that that leap?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Question. Actually, that's that's a good question. I wanted a bigger role. There was one position I wanted that was open, and I believed I could do it.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

This was a Gareflor? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Or this was a Gearfloor, okay. No, no, no. At Jafla.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

I moved within Geoffloe, I took responsibilities, I proved myself, and then I took responsibility. I always went after the roles I wanted each time. This is really what I was saying earlier. Don't wait for it to happen. You have to go, you have to chase it. And it worked until, yeah, MD role for Benelux. I was in the Netherlands, and I knew what was meant, make what my next move was was gonna be, and I wanted that role, which was MD for France, which was the biggest country.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

The most strategic and the biggest country in terms of size, sales, team, organization. Organization, maturity, I mean everything. It was the market number one.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

And Gareflor is a wholesale building materials business, if I understand properly.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

It's a manufacturer.

unknown 44:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Floor covering and accessories manufacturing.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

So you were you were the managing director for the Benelux, right? For for Belgium and Holland. And then you went to the U.S.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Before that I was export, yeah. Before that I was export manager for um Africa, then I became uh Cesan Marketing Director for the Mia region, Middle East and Africa, and then I I I was promoted as MD for the Benelux. I didn't want to stay connected with this Middle East Africa. I knew I I would be trapped uh in this emerging country. So I went after a European market uh position, and this is how I I took the MD position for the Benelux, and then I wanted France. And my my boss then, who I value a lot, and I'm a big and still a big fan of him, and he taught me so much, and he's so responsible to the kind of manager and leader I am today, and I'm extremely grateful for him. But at that moment, he told me something. He said, This is too big for you.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Why did he say that?

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I don't know. I don't care. When he said this is too big for me, then I decided that this was it, that I deserved bigger, and I wasn't gonna go for bigger and find it.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

In hindsight, what do you think of his decision today? Were you ready?

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Think he, I don't know, honestly, but he had to make this decision taking into account factors and elements which I didn't know of at that time, and for sure. And I will never blame him for that, and I will never have any negative feeling about what happened. He had probably like everything, there's always a good reason for something to happen. And he had a good reason for saying no, and things probably I I don't know of, I'm not aware of that was happening at board level or and I shouldn't know, and actually it's not important, but the fact is that he said that, and I thought I did deserve it, and I went for something as big, and and this is where the Moduline opportunity came.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

When you make these changes, because it sounds like from observing your career patterns, right? It sounds like you get into a role and then like very quickly you kind of identify what the next role up the ladder is, right? What you want next. What what drives that? What's the primary driver when you put your eye on that next role? What's the reason you want that next role?

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yeah, good, good question. Good question.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Because people have different motivations, right? Some people it's money, some people it's power, some people it's ego, some people it's growth, learning, whatever, but people have different reasons. And I'm just curious what yours is.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Achieving, getting setting a target and achieving. Yeah. This is not power, not it's really achieving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Achieving for you or achieving for others?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Both. Both. I care. I'm a people's person and a people's manager. Everybody will say this. And I know I have this way of embarking people with me and bringing them and taking them to where I want to go. And that adventure is interesting. It's not me, it's not about me. It's about how I can bring a group of people in an organization to achieve something. And something bigger and bigger, let's say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Maybe, yeah, and maybe there's in me this little girl, no, that really wanted to prove to the world that yeah, it's not because I was born here. Um and I'm a woman and that that I don't, you know, I can't go far.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Yeah, you know, that that it's it's it's very interesting because, you know, our past and our and our in our infancy and our and our adolescence and the circumstances that we grew up in always shape who we become later and why we want to do the things that we want to do, right? For some people, they wanted to impress their parents, their father, usually, right? For other people, they just had to prove to somebody else that they could do it. For other people, it's financial freedom. For other people, it's power. For other people, it's just the joy of doing hard things. When you look at these, because you you you want to bring these people along with you. You want to achieve things. How important is it for you, the magnitude and size of the challenge? How much does that play a role in your decision?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

It does play a role. Every time I realize it was always a bit more complex or a bit bigger or a bit more challenging. And I don't know. It's a good question. I think we we that that deserve uh introspection psychology session on its own.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Yeah, yeah, hold on. Yeah, it it it's uh I've I'm always fascinated by what motivates people.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

So, of course, that that of course leads me to my next question, which is because yeah, just sorry to interrupt, but because one of the main motivations I had was be the CEO your parents want to marry.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

This was Wow, okay. Be the CEO your parents want to marry. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Want you to marry, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Okay, as a CEO, be the CEO your parents want you to marry. Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah. That was one of my main drivers for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

But it's beyond this. It's not about myself. It's also about bringing people, growing people, achieving something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

How how fair is the statement that part of what drives you is the challenge of doing something that's not only new, but something that's hard.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

This is very true. Why do you think that matters?

SPEAKER_03 49:44

What does doing something hard give you?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

This sense of this is actually my motto. This is my deep-rooted, I think, fire. Something that's hard that you can achieve is something that brings you the gratitude or the satisfaction that you are capable. And you can still take those steps up and continue to take those steps up. And the harder, the more challenging, the more they will tell you it is not possible, or the more I want it, and I wanted to, I want to make it happen. I usually often say my people, I don't want to hear why we can't do something, I want to hear how we're gonna do it. And this is really deeply rooted as well. So Yeah. No, it's it's and this is also rings with I don't take no for an answer, a first, at least a first answer. Because when it's no, then there must be a way. This is yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah. No, that's it's very interesting because you know, I uh, as I think I told you in the last session, you know, we uh I do a lot of work around the world speaking for organizations. And the theme that I speak about most, which I think more is most my my zone of expertise, which people are asking me a lot lately, is how do you build a culture of resilience, right? How do you cultivate a culture in a company where people, you know, are have the ability to get back up when they get knocked down, right? Or and are able to step out of their comfort zones and do very, very hard things. And part of it is the psychology, what psychology and neuroscience tells us is very much what you just said. People saw a lot of people don't realize this consciously. But when we do hard things, the next hard thing that we do becomes slightly easier. And it's almost like a drug, right? It's that's why when you see people that have a history of doing very hard things, they continue to push the bar doing harder and harder things. And the more hard things you are able to overcome, the more resilient you become. And the the reverse is also true. And so people that never try anything difficult, people that have lived in the same city their whole lives, been in the same company their whole life, they become soft because they they just the first challenge that they have that knocks them over, it's so much harder for them to get back up because they they have not trained that muscle, right? And you seem like consciously you've been training that muscle for decades.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

This is very, very true.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

And that's now why you wanted to take the CEO job because you're like, okay, well, for managing director, where do I go? Well, the only place that's left is CEO, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Yeah. This is very, very true. This is this is exactly you have put very beautiful words on the It's this human nature.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

This is this is why the people who do the most incredible things, if you look at their history, they have a history of doing incredible things and they're constantly ratchet up the level of difficulty. But when I you know when I talk about resilience, kind of there's five pillars of resilience: people who have very clear purpose, people who do very hard things, people who consistently ask for help along the way, which you've done because you have a number of mentors, people who are able to reframe failure as learning, because of course, and we didn't really talk about this, but there are failures along the way. And then, of course, to me, there is a degree of faith, is you have to believe. And for some people, that belief is religious and they go to mass and they pray actively. For some people, that belief is spiritual, they believe in something. And for some people, that belief is a deep sense of belief in themselves, right? That they just have a such a strong belief in what they're doing and a sense of self-belief that that is what carries them forward. So naturally, this takes us to our final question before the lightning round of questions, which is given that you've done so many hard things, and given that the achievement part is so important, has there ever been a moment where you did not succeed? And what did you learn?

SPEAKER_00 53:28

There are a couple of things. And these couple of things are also personal. So uh I said I was married the first time. And uh it's also part of the hard things I had to do because uh my ex-husband wasn't um was psychologically abusive. I was trapped in this for years, for years, and I had to save myself at some point in time. But for all these years I believed that I could change it. I had this strong belief that as I intellectualize the problem and put words on it and understand it and analyze it and find action or plans or solutions I could change because I want it like everything else. No, I I believe in it, I want it to happen, I make a plan, and it didn't go that way. It didn't work. Yes, until the moment you realize that you actually have to save your your own self. Yeah. And then you have to just back off and go.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Changing people is is one of the hardest things that you can do. If there's one thing I learned from it, is that you can't change a person unless they want to change.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yes, this is also true. And by the way, speaking about that, you advised me that book, Immunity to Change. I'm actually reading it. Is it you who advised me this book? I think it's you.

SPEAKER_03 54:51

It could be. It could be. I advise people on so many books that I honestly lose track. But but when you look back on that experience, what was the number one takeaway from that? I mean, obviously, this is different, this is personal, this is your husband, this is trying to change a person. It was hard, obviously, you've thought about it a lot. What what did you take away from that experience?

SPEAKER_00 55:11

It it it's very difficult for me to it's very difficult for me to get another learning than somehow you know in a way I failed. And in a way, and this is something I I still have to work on. I do feel guilty somehow. There is this guilt and the guilt feel kind of guilt feeling that very rarely got me in my life as much as it gets me here, because nothing is black or white. Of course, people behave in ways, but then you f you think, did I trigger that? Did I do did I do anything to trigger this? Did I what what is it that went wrong? Even if you are not really responsible, and I went through work, well, counseling uh regarding this point, but this guilt feeling is very deeply rooted. And um reprocessing where you think what what should have done differently, and then accepting at the end that you couldn't have done anything, it's just accepting, no, accepting that it couldn't have gone differently. And I couldn't have avoided it. I was young and I was truly in love, and I believed that this was the person that I truly loved and want to spend the rest of my life with. So I couldn't have done it differently. And whatever way you process it, you actually learned that sometimes you really have to go through it and you have to accept. You can't analyze everything, fix everything, get whatever you want. You sometimes have to accept. And it's part of then who you are and who you become.

SPEAKER_03 56:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. Um I know that you know the personal stuff uh can be the hardest. You know, I went through divorce as well. Uh many of us do. Statistically, the numbers are what they are. Most, you know, on average, uh, 50% are not gonna make it. And I know that people will, you know, beat themselves up endlessly on what happened, what could I have done differently? Was it me? You know, I did I try hard enough? Did I should I have done this? Should I have done that? Uh and it's it's a normal part of human behavior. And I think it is accentuated for people that are what I called hyperachievers. When I work with people, one of the diagnostics that I do is a saboteur assessment. And all of us have saboteurs. And a lot of successful people, quote unquote, particularly CEOs, have what's called a hyper-achiever saboteur, which is that they they what drives them is the sense of achievement. And often, not always, but oftentimes it is the necessity to be seen as achieving by others. So it's external, right? Um, and it affects all of our, all the parts of our life. It doesn't just affect the work, it also affects our personal life, you know, our ability, are we a good father? Are we a good mother? Are we a good friend? Are we a good son? You know, we're constantly, we need that validation. And so what I always tell people is A, it's perfectly normal, it's okay. And B, um, and I think you came to this conclusion, is at some point you have to let it go. You know, you have to take what you learned and then move on, right? My son once told me something incredibly wise for a 19-year-old. He said, I'll never forget this. He said, Dad, he said, you know what your problem is? You know, kids are always very good at this. You know what your problem is, Dad? And I go, What's my problem, son? He goes, uh, he goes, you're either kind of like stuck, you know, thinking about the past or you're stressed out and anxious about the future. You don't live in the present. And it blew my mind that he would say that. But the worst was that he was right. He was absolutely right. And so now I try, I make this conscious effort, you know, like I journal every day and then I write down, you know, five things that went well for me this day, and I and I and I and I write down, you know, what happened in this day, what I learned from that. And I try not to be anxious to your point. You said this at the beginning of the conversation. You know, I try not to get anxious and focused about things that I can't control. I'm always thinking about, okay, how much control do I have on global tariffs, right? Zero. Right? The US is going to invade Greenland. Zero. Right. Um and and these things help. So thank you so much for sharing that. I think the audience will take a lot out of it. I think the audience will take a lot out of your journey, your vulnerability, your sense of self-worth, your sense of striving and trying to become a better person. I, you know, the world leads needs leaders, and I think the world needs people that can show us that we can achieve things that maybe we don't think we can achieve. I think there's a there's a there's power in that, right? And certainly when you look at how we're being led politically, we we need a lot more better leadership there. So before we we wind down completely, I do have three quick final questions, which are what we call our lightning round of questions, which are three quick questions, three quick answers. Very simple. So, question number one is if you could have a superpower, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Wait, so it's easy, but any superpower, if you could have a superpower, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

If I had a superpower, what would it be? Being able to live back positive emotions, positive moments, you know, putting yourself back, bringing back a very, very happy moment and living it again. This is very powerful because this gives energy to achieve anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

Okay. That's very cool. I actually have an exercise that I do when I do keynotes where we do that. Uh, very powerful, very cool, very cool. That's a very unusual answer. I had never heard that before. Kind of like being able to find that emotion of a of something in the past and kind of holding on to it. Oh, question number two. If you could have dinner with anybody in history, live or dead, who would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Winston Churchill.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

Winston Churchill. Okay. Fascinating character. Yeah, he is a fascinating character. And the last question, you know, especially for all the young people out there listening, given your trajectory, given everything that you've done, given your ability to put yourself, you know, in a zone of discomfort and do hard things, what piece of advice would you give a young person who is trying to find a career that gives them meaning and purpose?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

To get out of their comfort zone, experience things, because they will only find it if they don't have a vocation. I do say this already, they if don't they don't have a purpose? Experience different things, travel, meet different people from you. And then you find it. But for sure, uh tr striving for um staying in the same place, traveling always, or going on holiday to the same city or house or or area where you used to as when you were young. Not daring to try something new. This is the worst thing because that won't allow you to go and see what's beyond the world that you have in front of you. So to experience as much things as you have, yeah, as you can.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

I think that's great advice. I think that's great advice. Folks, uh, what an amazing interview. This has been another episode of Mork Unfiltered with Naita Wile from Timo, CEO of Timo, Lebanese, world traveler, company builder, incredible story, you know, from uh from a childhood surviving wars of Lebanon to running and building global businesses. Uh, this has been a story of courage, of transformation, of fierce resilience, and of the ability to constantly stretch herself and and do hard things. So you heard it here. So, you know, Nai, thank you so much for your for your honesty, for your insights, for showing our listeners what it really means to lead with conviction, clarity, and really to you know, try and become a better version of yourself. I think, you know, doing doing hard things is tremendously important, as I think people have heard today. And to everybody listening out there, you know, if this conversation moved you, inspired you, taught you something new, maybe reminded you of your own journey, please help us keep it going. Subscribe to the channel. That means a lot to us. It helps really validate why we do what we do. This is this is a free podcast. We don't charge anything for this. We're just trying to help educate people, make better leaders. God knows the world really needs leadership these days. So subscribe, leave us a like, drop us a comment, you know, in the notes, tell us about your hardest experience. Share this episode with somebody who really needs to hear this right now. And as always, stay curious, stay humble, and keep growing. Thanks, and we'll see you in the next episode. And uh, Nai, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

Thank you very much, Brad.