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Mork Unfiltered
Mork Unfiltered
Into the Impossible: The Himalayan Obsession That Forged a CEO
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What would you do if you were 19, had no internet, no mobile phone, and wanted to trek into a hostile Himalayan tribe descended from Alexander the Great's mutinous soldiers — a tribe that considered every outsider untouchable?
Aseem Sadana said yes. And that single act of unreasonable commitment shaped everything that followed.
In this episode of Mork Unfiltered, my long-lost INSEAD classmate takes us from that sub-zero Himalayan expedition into ancient tribal lands all the way to the boardrooms of Europe — where he's now COO of Health Hero, the continent's largest digital healthcare provider, built through 7 acquisitions across 4 countries in under 8 months.
This is a leadership podcast episode unlike any other. Aseem has walked away from a thriving architecture practice, bet his life savings on a startup, and consistently chosen purpose over prestige at every fork in his career. If you're navigating a career change, feeling stuck in the wrong job, or wondering how to find your purpose in a world being turned upside down by AI, this conversation is your roadmap.
We get into the real stuff:
Why commitment beats resilience — and why most people have it backwards
The difference between significance and contribution and why it matters for your career fulfillment
How to use the flow state to know when you're on the right path
Surviving the AI middle game and what the future of work actually looks like
Why midlife career pivots aren't just possible — they're necessary
How to overcome the fear of failure and stop climbing the wrong mountain
This isn't just a career reinvention story. It's a masterclass in high performance leadership, radical authenticity, and building a life that actually means something.
No fluff. No corporate BS. Just one man's unfiltered roadmap to an unreasonable, high-impact life.
🎧 Subscribe to Mork Unfiltered — new episodes every week with leaders who've done it the hard way.
💬 Drop a comment — what's the most unreasonable thing you've ever committed to?
📲 Share this with someone who needs a kick in the ass.
0:00 – Intro: Meet Aseem Sadana.
2:40 – The Himalayan Expedition: Lessons from Alexander the Great’s lost soldiers.
7:15 – The Power of Intentionality: How to make the impossible happen.
14:02 – From Architect to Business Leader: Why Aseem left his own firm.
24:50 – Finding Your "Flow": The metric for a successful life.
33:15 – Significance vs. Contribution: Why the fancy car isn’t enough.
44:50 – Commitment vs. Resilience: A new way to look at failure.
55:00 – Navigating the AI "Middle Game": How to stay relevant.
59:50 – The Lightning Round: Mind-reading and Mahatma Gandhi.
#OneLife #CareerChange #FindYourPurpose #StopFear #WorkLifeBalance #AIFuture #MotivationDaily
If this episode moved you or gave you a different lens on adversity and growth, I want to invite you to go deeper.
I wrote Step Back and Leap for people exactly like us. People building through chaos. People trying to find meaning inside uncertainty. People choosing purpose over comfort. You can get it here:
https://a.co/d/e4nd8RT
And if you want practical tools you can use today to strengthen your resilience, I created a short, tactical guide you can download immediately. It’s called The Mork Guide to Resilience and it is designed to help you build inner strength, recover faster, and lead from a grounded place:
https://aa5c-ea.systeme.io/resilience
Because sometimes the most powerful leaps forward start with stepping back, grounding yourself, and reconnecting to why you are here in the first place.
— Patrick
There's only one life. You've got to make the most of it.
SPEAKER_02Why was impact so important to you?
SPEAKER_00Instead of being a conformist, you have to make your choices uh in an authentic manner.
SPEAKER_02How do you define contribution?
SPEAKER_00Commitment, I think, is the more um important keyword here than resilience.
SPEAKER_02What's your formula for bouncing back? Welcome back to Morgan Filters, folks. From the Himalayan frontiers to Europe's boardrooms, a team's Sedan has turned a path that's as unpredictable as it is purposeful. An Insta alumnus, scale-up expert, and private equity operator, Estee is currently the COO of Health Hero, Europe's largest digital healthcare provider built through six acquisitions across four countries in under seven months. But beyond the titles and traction, Estee is someone who's changed meaning over money and purpose over prestige. Whether trekking into ancient tribal lands at the tender age of 18 or navigating the high-stakes pivots of entrepreneurship, today we dive into the messy middle of his career, the battles, the breakthroughs, and what it truly means to be unstoppable. This is Mork Unfiltered, and this is Esteem Sedana. Welcome to the show, Esteem. It's great to have you here.
SPEAKER_00Hello, Patrick. It's just amazing to see you. Um thank you for reconnecting, and this is gonna be a lovely conversation with my long-lost friend from INCIAD, I must say.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely. It is crazy that we have known each other for 26 years. I mean, can you believe that? 26 years is not how it's crazy. It does fly. It does fly. But you know, it's kind of like when when I when I look at how much time has passed, you know, I'm obviously impressed by all the things that you've done. And, you know, one of the things that I love about this show is that I'm able to interview fascinating people like you. And one of the things that they all have in common is, you know, this jagged, crazy line being kind of a little bit all over the place in terms of all the interesting things that they've done. And it's particularly fascinating because I think, you know, we're in an age where, you know, artificial intelligence is redefining everything, people's careers are changing more quickly than ever. And oftentimes what you get is you get people asking, well, you know, what should I be doing with my life? Where does my career go next? Or what is my career? Right. And so in your case, I kind of want to redial back the clock, right? Many years ago, as you and I discussed in our previous call, a part of your career uh and and and kind of your realization as a professional, as a man, started with this incredible expedition at the tender age of 18 in the Himalayan Mountains. Tell us about that expedition, where it came from, what it was, and why you decided to do this.
SPEAKER_00Well, of course. Patrick, I've always uh followed my heart. And I'll answer your question, but you know, when we talk about careers and trajectories, I find it a bit unfortunate that people think of these things in rather conventional terms. And I start from a very simple premise of there's only one life. You've got to make the most of it, and you have to be true to your own self about what you're really meant for and what you're going to really enjoy and find most meaningful. And in in such pursuits, instead of being a conformist to what others would want you to do, you have to make your choices in an authentic manner. And I think at a young age, when I read The Fountainhead, I became clear I had to be an architect. Impressionable as I was as as a teenager. And it was, of course, a very exciting thing to do. Uh a blend of art and science. And for for someone who can be confused, especially as a teenager, as I was, I thought, let me hedge and actually sit in the middle of art and science, and architecture seemed just right. And then within that program, I soon discovered that actually there's a lot more learning to be done outside the classroom than inside. And I found some interesting research projects and there were national competitions of all kinds, and I would throw my hat in that ring at every opportunity. Within such competitions, there was one about tribal architecture and documenting that within India. Now, India, as you know, is a vast country, and there are many tribes, and there are many types of architecture and variety. And we chose a particularly incredible, adventurous, exotic place. It was set in the Himalayas, and it was a tribal settlement by Alexander's soldiers from 300 BC.
SPEAKER_02Wow, Alexander the Great. That one.
SPEAKER_00From 300 BC. From 300 BC. Wow. So this this does go back a while, right? And effective effectively, this is during Alexander's invasion of the region back in that day, and in that treacherous terrain of the steep Himalayas, there was a mutiny by a band of soldiers of Alexander's army who at some point were disenrolled from that overall mission. They decided to hide from Alexander, and they found this little shelf on a ledge, let's call it, in a steep valley face in the Himalayas, where they could find a hiding place and they created a settlement of their own. So it has Greek heritage, you know, written all over it. It has motifs, carvings, and architecture that reflects that place and era. Right. And the way this came about, Patrick, was uh also very interesting, right? I mean, this is again a stage of life where you tend to be very unreasonable and kind of off the moment. Which, by the way, I I I hope is a quality one preserves throughout life, right? There's no reason to give that one up, frankly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Be unreasonable.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And and you know, as long as you're not harming others, why why not? This and in in in this instance, you know, there was that kind of um braval where um at the age of 18 and 19, uh I mean this was 19 precisely when I actually went, but at that stage in life, when a fellow classmate and friend brought this magazine to the table. The magazine was called Discover India. Again, it's a magazine about exotic places and mysterious things and so on. And within that, there was this kind of centerpiece on this village called Malana. And it had all kinds of mysterious description about Alexander's legacy and stuff, and there was this temple face in a photo in the middle of the article. The temple's uh facade was very richly done. Now, what you would consider typically tribal is typically uh mud and thatched roof or something grass and bamboo. No, no, this was well built, you know, hard timber, stone layering, amazing earthquake-resistant architecture. And on top of that, we had amazing wooden carvings, and then there was a whole string of bones and skeletons and horns of animals hanging on this face. And the caption of the caption of the picture said, could some of these be human? And the architecture looked amazing, and the mystery was quite a draw. And my friend and I, you know, looked at each other and we just high-fived each other, and we knew without even uttering a word, we're going here. Interesting. And and you just kind of resolve totally randomly, unreasonably, that this is something you've got to do. And there is an ongoing theme of a competition called tribal architecture in India. Then how can you not do this, right? Right. Now, this is a this is a ridiculous place to go to. People can't access it. Uh, the only way to reach there is um trek, which is which is uh about six hours trek back in that day. Today it's better connected. But at that time, a six-hour trek from a very remote village at a base level, which again is fairly high up in in in Middle Himalayas. Yeah. And you don't go there, there's no easy way to reach that base village, and then you have to trek from there. Now we're we're talking about um early 90s, and there is no internet, of course, there's no mobile telephone even. And we are researching this place sitting in Bombay, Mumbai now. The way to find information was also quite something, right? We had to go to some very old rickety, dusty libraries, look for literature and documents and what is called a gazette, right?
SPEAKER_02That sounds like the beginning of an Indiana Jones movie.
SPEAKER_00It is very, very close to that, frankly. I mean, nowhere as dramatic, but but the makings are there. Effectively, uh factory. Why I'm kind of fond of that mission is that there was no linear, reasonable, logical way in which anyone would do this. We were college students going to an impossible place where entries from for outsiders is not even allowed because the villagers consider themselves the superior, most thrive in the world, and everybody else from the outside is seen as untouchable. So, and it is a very difficult terrain and you know, sub-zero temperatures and so on. So, in that hostile environment, we nevertheless formed a team. I had to literally go to many people's uh house uh houses and you know, basically convince parents of essentially these were kids, and I was a kid at that time, convincing them that actually it is on us that we bring the stun alive. This is not a place where we would take girls at that stage in life, right? Not not to be discriminatory, and some people my wife complains as well, but it's it's not it's not safe, etc. So with those assurances, we set about massive amount of research. But more than that, I think it's really intentionality. It is about having that kind of clear intention of making it happen against all odds, and it was fun, right? And intention in a space which is fun, and you're not terribly attached to the point that if it fails, then if you're miserable, you're not because it is fun, right? So even if it failed, we would be okay. I think that's a great place to be. And when you operate from that place, amazing things happen. I mean, the level of coincidences, right? So, for example, there were very, very few people on the planet who've been there before. One of them was a famous painter called Ram Reheman. The guy lives in New York, and travel and distance, etc., is a thing back in that day. And we're sitting in we're sitting in Bombay, and I'm just thinking, how can we ever reach this man in New York? Should we write a letter? And email was still not there if you imagine that that era. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's how that's how long ago it was.
SPEAKER_00And within the next seven days, Ram Rayman is visiting Mumbai, exhibiting his photographs or paintings in a local exhibition there. And these kind of opportunities just then present themselves. So we obviously landed there, we talked to him, we get some tips, we get a letter of recommendation to the local village chief who knew him. And we make connections like this, and ultimately we draw different lines of approach, get reference letters from people, make connections which are totally unimaginable, and ultimately land in this base village from which we were to discover the next steps. We had no assurance while setting out from Bombay, which is quite a threat to go to this place in the village itself in the MLN as to what will happen next. But we knew we have to go there first and figure the rest. That's what we did. We were a team trekking up, and then we went there, we documented the place, which essentially is to say, as architecture students, we surveyed every nook and cranny of the layout, the contours, the house plans, how they look, all kinds of uh architectural documentation in tremendous detail. Right? We did that over over over two weeks. Um, it was much lauded, much awarded, and and and so on. It was quite quite a uh well-recognized piece of work back in the day. And we came back with a successful mission, and you know, I was the first one to enter so many of these houses and photograph them from the inside, uh, which which they don't allow normally, right? So there were many kind of stories inside that story about how they let us in, what kind of sacrifices of goats and so on we had to do to purify our sins if we if we overstepped some line in the village. And there were all kinds of um rituals that we had to go with and um yeah, the hostility had to be overcome, which we did gradually, and there were language barriers and all of that. But ultimately, that that kind of made one realize that if you really set your heart and mission on on something with a good intent, then all kinds of impossible things can happen. And then that became a bit of a kind of defining lighthouse uh piece for my life because I hold that as a yardstick that you know, whatever I'm doing, can I exceed the level of impossibility that I faced at that time? Can I overcome the level of uncertainty and can I show the level of intentionality in doing what I do like what I did there? Right? So it was very fortunate in that sense that actually it went well and it became exemplary for my own limited sake. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What what was what was the what was the main way? What was the main learning for you from that experience? When you look back on it today, what was the the most important thing you learned from that expedition from putting that expedition together from succeeding in pulling off something extraordinarily different?
SPEAKER_00Well, the biggest thing is almost nothing is impossible, right? I mean, to me, this became a bit of an example of that because you know if if you actually sat calmly on a desk and thought about what we were about to undertake, and it was totally in the realm of unknown. I mean, the level of host hostility is that you're not allowed to enter the village, right? That we can read that in the documents we found in those dusty libraries. We can read how this is a unique classified tribe which nobody can touch, nobody can approach, don't even go there. We don't know the mysteries of the inside, we don't know what will happen, right? That's all documented. And yet there was a complete plunge into uncertainty. So dealing with uncertainty, uncertainty, uh, you know, the idea that anything is possible and rel relatedly, intent can move or intentions can move mountains right. Right. So so that that was interesting.
SPEAKER_02Where where do you think the initial interest and fascination with architecture always, you know, where do you think that came from? Because one of the things that I find, you know, interviewing so many people on this podcast and exploring kind of like the the valleys of their career is you know, there's always an early influence by people on, you know, from their parents, from an uncle, from something that they saw from a close friend, right? It takes them in one direction, it takes them in another direction. It might not always be the right direction. And I know, for example, having spoken to many Indians, you know, you and I always joke that, you know, I should have honorary uh Indian citizenship because I have so many Indian friends. I have more Indian friends than any other nationality. By far, I I can I can hardly think of like a friend of mine who's not Indian, right? But one of the things I noticed about India is that, you know, the aspiration of many Indian families is, you know, to have your son be a doctor, right? To have your son be a lawyer, to have your son be an engineer, which is not always the best path for that person. So in your case, two questions. One is where did the initial interest in architecture come from? And then, of course, how do you go from architecture to business? Because you didn't end up being an architect.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. Um good questions. So the initial interest came from reading this book, The Fountainhead. Have you have you encountered Ayn Rand in the world?
SPEAKER_02I have not, I have not read no, I have not read that.
SPEAKER_00I have not. So so she she was this revolutionary philosopher and an architect herself, if I get that right. This is in the early 1900s, and she had this kind of fantasy novel about uh this uh, you know, idealistic architect who would stick to his principles and absolute trailblazer, thought leader, but then he would do things in what is quote unquote the right way and will overcome any obstacle in doing so. And he was totally committed to that. And you know, it was a very h heroic portrayal of an idealist architect. And I so related to that, I thought this is this is it, this is what I want to be. And I also thought that I actually have some aptitude for design, rightly or wrongly. In the in the five years after my course, I did actually practice architecture for five years. We we built a reasonably good practice, my wife and I, we started this together. But but equally, my dad was unconventional compared to many Indian parents, where he was fairly liberal in his approach that if you're clear this is what you want to do, sir, go and do it. He's a he's an engineer from the IITs himself. And I don't think it was easy for him to give up on that, but he kind of took the bit of pill and thought if if I really want to do that, uh then he should not be the one stopping me. So so that's how it happened. And then further to architecture, which is then leading up to the practice we built, and it was a it was a very good practice. I mean, we we got lucky. We got the first order of a car showroom for an unnamed foreign entrant, a car company entering India from a local dealer, and he said, we cannot review the name because of uh business confidentiality. And I'll give you the design guidelines and all of that. And we made the place, it it turned out to be really good. And the clients uh from France were very happy as well, and they were from France because this was for Persia. So this is Perge entering India, and their first showroom and workshop were were done by us. And we were in our early 20s at that stage, and and you know, the phone started ringing. I mean, the project went well, and then we were kind of named as the go-to architects for their dealer in in their dealer handbook uh across the country. And and we were getting a number of inquiries, and then there were other four foreign car companies like Gendro Motors, Hyundai, uh, Fiat all entering India in the mid to late 90s. So we actually made the most out of that. We grew the practice, became a team of eight. And then within about four and a half, five years of doing that, a question struck me. And this is where, you know, uh a bit of an idealist mentality sometimes, for good or bad, catches up. And and and that mentality is it's a litmus test, really. It's about am I spending my time in the things I really, really want to do in my life? Great question. Right?
SPEAKER_02I mean and that's and that's I was interviewing another I was interviewing another guest a couple of months ago who actually asks himself that question every year as part of an annual revision. Right. But he sits down at the end of the year and he asks himself that question. It's a fascinating question. Am I spending my time doing the things that I want to be doing, right? That or that give me energy. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, right? Because, you know, if you have to be true to yourself, you have to live your potential, you have to express yourself, and you do that in places which you think are really meant for you. And you need to be very present to that, right? So, and and I'm I'm very introspective, in fact, overly so I'm almost too analytical about these things. And then it it struck me, actually, I became an architect for the creative pursuit that this is. Right. But but in the in the four and five years, four and a half years that I did this, the level of creative expression was actually fairly limited. And I was spending a lot of my time chasing contractors, right? Chasing client payments, and things which are sometimes harder in India than many other places, by the way. Yeah. Right. So so that wasn't fun. And I was good at it. I was actually an administrator of my business as as a practice, right? And I was growing it well, it was all going really well. However, this is not my time spent allocation I really planned for. Yeah. So I so I challenged that, and then one New Year's Eve, um, this is 31st December 1998, because 99 you and I would meet in a few months. Yeah, that's right. So on that New Year's Eve, um, some MBA friends landed a very clear insight on me that actually the kind of things that I'm talking of I will enjoy, which is problem solving, variety, new challenges, living in different places and cultures, etc. There is one word which solves all of that, or two words. Technology consulting. I said that sounds really cool. Fun variety kind of thing to do in your early career. But how do you think?
SPEAKER_02But let me let me pause, let me interrupt you there for one second. Please. This insight came across how. How did that in how did you come to that insight?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So it was from a few different angles, right? So one is about what you feel yourself, which is about what I'm liking in the job is solving problems, right? Right. And I'm finding that I'm actually good at it. But then I'm also wary of the fact that this is getting monotonous. I'm solving the same kind of problems too many times. So there is no growth in there, but I like it for the first part. Then I can see that having grown up uh in a limited environment, Mumbai is a big city, but nevertheless it's a city, and I was doing most of my work there at that stage. It seemed a bit uh confined, and that is uh quite quite obvious and apparent. And then you combine that with external feedback, and there are these other other friends which I was fortunate to have who are doing all kinds of um post-business school careers in in banking and finance and and some in consulting. And I'm able to combine their feedback with what I'm experiencing and arrive at the the right answer in terms of, you know, actually variety in problem solving, living in different parts of the world, entering different business contexts in which you solve problems would be be a very interesting challenge to undertake.
SPEAKER_02So so, how much of this was due to the fact that you had this very kind of unique, varied group of friends around you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was a big influence. And one in particular, my friend Mayur, he would particularly nudge me in this direction very hard. And that added up, yes.
SPEAKER_02It was what would you say to people who potentially don't have a very varied group of interests? Because you know, the the more I talk to people, the more I realize one one thing that that a lot of successful people People say, which is, you know, this old adodge of um you are a product of the five people that you spend the most time around with, right? So if you're living in the middle of middle America somewhere and you were surrounded by a whole bunch of people who basically do the same thing, right? Whether it's, you know, you're a teacher in a middle school or you're a truck driver or you're an Uber driver or you're a gardener, but you spend most of your time with the same people, how the hell do you then get out of that and get a different perspective from different people?
SPEAKER_00I think these are just circumstances. And circumstances shape us. There is no escaping that. The only solece I will offer in that context is that, you know, from our vantage point, Patrick, it might look like there is lost potential there in your example.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But actually, look at all the contentment they might have.
SPEAKER_02They might. They might. And if they're happy, look, I'm not gonna knock it, right? I I meet people at all sorts of walks of life who are very happy doing, you know, what we would consider fairly mundane things. And then I meet the reverse. I meet people like you and I uh working in private equity or in strategy consulting or running a startup or you know, who have exited startup and who are absolutely miserable because they set the ladder of their career against a certain mountain and they climbed that mountain that and once they got to the top, they realize they climbed the wrong mountain. And then they look across the valley and they see another mountain that would have been better for them. So you know, it's it's this is why it's so hard because I I don't think people spend enough time at the beginning of their careers or in their early years being introspective enough to get that insight. And it sounds like, you know, you read a book, it had a massive impact on you, you pursued architecture, then you start you found yourself running a business, and then all of a sudden, because you were in this multifaceted group of people who were doing different things, you got a different insight, which was hey, actually, I'm spending more time on the business side of this than the architecture side of this, and I actually enjoy that.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02That's what I'm getting. Is that correct? That is very accurate. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So so so it's it's about circumstances and how they add up. But equally, you have to be present to to those things around you and how you feel about about you know the different aspects of your day-to-day and which which ones are you really enjoying more or not?
SPEAKER_02So, so look, um it is What when it when it comes to enjoyment though, Asim, what's what's your reaction if I if I tell you, for example, and this is is this a fair statement, that the work that you were doing more on the business side and this idea more of strategy and problem solving was actually giving you a lot of positive energy every time you did those kind of that kind of work. Is that is that a fair thing to say? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Go ahead, sorry. No, no, no, no. I'm I'm a huge fan of flow. Yeah. The idea of the book, the philosophy, right?
SPEAKER_02Can you can you explain that a little bit for the audience? What is this idea of flow and and why does it matter when you talk about the context of your career and what you do for a living?
SPEAKER_00So so so flow is this concept which was born out of um the work of a famous uh Hungarian American psychologist. Exactly. I mean I'm I'm really unpronounced wrong. I got that, I got I got that wrong, but it's something like that.
SPEAKER_02Okay. It's me, it's Mikhail Chikent Michai, exactly. I'm gonna know I'm not even gonna try and spell it. I think for anybody in the audience, if you just Google flow book, you will find it.
SPEAKER_00There is only one like that. And and he's spelled as Michali, if I would call it that, right? The Hungarian pronunciation of Michail is is what you just said. Exactly. Now this this gentleman came out with the most revolutionary concept, I think, which is about how do you really find meaning and enjoy your life in the day-to-day. Right. A mechanism for that is suggested as being in the flow state. Exactly. And the flow state is what you experience when you channelize your attention on certain activity or endeavor where you're feeling deep interest and passion, you're deeply engaged, there is a level of challenge, so it is engaging your faculties with a bit of a stretch as well. There is a healthy challenge involved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It it kind of um has some aspects of Vikigai in it, because you know it takes your interest and passion, it takes the faculties that you probably are good at, and it is stretching those faculties in some form. And this occurs in all walks of life, work or play. We can be in flow right now in this conversation, right? Because it is it is making us think, it is making us engaged, right? So we are in flow right now. So the idea there is the more time you spend in flow in your life, yeah, the better your life is. Yes, absolutely. Because if you if you really think about what you can achieve with your life, any big impact you will make, the world you will change, etc., it's all for the good. I'm I'm a you know fan of that as well. But at the same time, from a personal satisfaction point of view, the biggest yardstick is in the moment to moment that you live, are you actually uh fulfilling your potential? Are you expressing yourself? And the flow state is a good vehicle where all of these things happen. Yes, yes. It also it also necessitates presence, right? So when when when you talk about being present is important well, if you're in flow, you're necessarily present as well.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And you're very self-aware, right? So I think one of the essential ingredients which you know I always work on with the leaders that I coach is, you know, leadership and and being in a state of flow partially is dependent on how self-aware you are, right? Some people are in a state of flow and they they don't even realize it, which is normal because you're just in the groove and you're just like, you know, it's like the scene with Brad Pitt where he's driving Formula One at the very end and he's racing towards the finish line. He's in that perfect state of flow where it's like it's timeless, right? But but exactly many people don't many people don't realize when they're in that state of flow because you can also say that the reverse is true, right? The more time you spend doing things that drain you energy, you get into this reverse state of flow, which which I think leads us to burnout, right? It's it has the opposite effect. So it sounds like you were finding yourself more and more in a state of flow as you were doing more of this problem-solving business strategy component of it. And then if I understood you correctly, when you started talking to your friends who started sharing about what strategy consulting was all about, you were like, wow, that sounds like a job that is all about these kind of things that put me in a state of flow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. And you know, my my kind of approach has been that if you then know the answer that this is the better thing to be or state to pursue, then you have to take responsibility and absolute commitment to make that happen. Because you're not being in integrity if you know that that is actually the place you want to be, but then you will not do it either out of fear or out of some other constraints, right? So then you have to be totally going for it, unreasonable if it might be. So you just have to pursue it. You you owe it to yourself to keep pursuing those things which will maximize your potential. And that's highly correlated with ultimately being in flow in any case, because when you're realizing your potential, you will be more and more in flow, right? I mean, you can almost have a yardstick of your life about percentage time in flu every day.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And then I think that's a great metric. But I think, you know, if you think of your realization at that moment, right? And then how did that play into your decision to go into business school? And and more importantly, was there any degree of fear of, okay, I'm gonna leave this architecture career behind and I'm going to go really, I'm gonna go to business school and I'm gonna change careers? Was there was there a degree of fear? And if so, how did you get over that?
SPEAKER_00Yes, there was. There was. I mean, this was uh a very risky move. As you know, at NCR you get people from all walks of life, uh architects, biologists, and so on are still really rare. And you would find yourself surrounded by people who come from more traditional corporate backgrounds, business backgrounds, a lot of them from consulting and banking, as you know. Yeah, oh my god, so a lot. So, in in some ways, the amazing stats we have about the placements and the kind of amazing jobs people end up with, etc., is all slam dunk and you know, full credit to people who make it and we all made it as well. But there is a bit of a linear, predictable path to people who come from such backgrounds and then go back to similar, if not the same kind of fields. Yeah. So so from my perspective, this was considered very risky. I had enough uh naysayers around me as well about what the hell are you doing, throwing this amazing practice, and we were giving up all that all that what we had earned as clients and goodwill, and then getting into a situation where I would be spending all my life savings so far in Sierra is expensive. Um all all good business schools are. And then you don't know after that, are you guaranteed something? Because you come from a very very different background, right? Exactly. So so I took a I took a pretty risky bet in that sense. But then it's fair to say we came out at such a good time in the year 2000 that there were too many options, and I think I went berserk in my risk mitigation by talking to too many companies and ending up with far more offers than I could even meaningfully engage with. And that was a sign of times in the run up to the dot-com crash, but well before. Yeah. Yeah. So so so that that happened, but I I do want to uh touch upon the Brazilian not Brazilian, but Latin Americans example that you create creates a niggle in terms of okay, there are people out there who may have that potential, but then how will they even come to know, right? And to which I say sometimes within their limited realm and awareness, if they are content and happy, and maybe they are in flow driving a truck or pulling pull pulling pulling the their tractor somewhere, yeah, you know, that then that is fair game. And I mean, yes, it is great to create opportunities and exposure for everyone, but ultimately if people are content in how they're spending their time day to day, I think that in itself is a blessing that we cannot underestimate. Absolutely. And and especially us business school types can over-index on ambition quite a lot.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. There's a lot of that. Yeah. Especially where I live here in Miami, there's a lot of people who, you know, have been extremely successful financially. And, you know, you can see that by the the houses and the cars here. I mean, the houses and the cars in this place are nuts. But I I have run into more than my fair share of people who you can tell these people are really not happy in many areas of their life, right? They they have all the money, they have all the trappings of wealth, but something is missing, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00So I think ultimately uh there is a set pattern to our worldly ways about what's important and what people pursue. But in that mix, I think people have forgotten the simple art of contentment and what are you spending your time on and living in the present moment to moment, relishing it. I think that quality is is precious. Never take it away.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Now, so so you go to you go to NSAD, you go to business school, then if I'm not mistaken, you you have a you have a bunch of offers, as you mentioned, you leave NSIAD, you start off your career in a diamond cluster, right? You and I ended up in the same firm in strategy consulting. So do you get a little bit of that that strategy consulting kind of like cake to you that you were looking for? And then following that, you you seem to go into a a series of different startup entrepreneurial opportunities, right? You have a very unusual career from the perspective that you've, you know, you you've switched industries a lot of times. You've seen a lot of different business models. What's been a little bit your inner compass when it comes to choosing the next career opportunity? Like what questions do you ask yourself and what's your process as you go through figuring out what's next?
SPEAKER_00That that does make me think, uh, Patrick, and that's a great question. Let me define this. It exists for sure, the compass. So I guess the key elements there are in each of these changes, right? I'm asking myself, what am I spending my time on today? And what will this new thing make me spend my time on, which is ultimately about optimization. It's it's about optimizing it's optimizing for creativity. It is optimizing for interest, for passion, it is optimizing for family time as well. For example, from consulting to doing my own startup, it was equally about not being on a plane every week or on a few, on a few planes every week.
SPEAKER_02Which is just I remember how much we flew around. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00It was crazy. So that is that is one aspect, but the fact that you're building something of your own, that is very exciting. And equally, you finally wind the clock, and when I started consulting, that itself was also very exciting, right? So there's something about freshness of the challenge as well. And there is something about when you've done something on repeat pattern, are you learning as much? Right. Are you are you as much in in the kind of uh faculty are you eng engaging your faculties rather in the ways you want, right?
SPEAKER_02Are you exactly it's it's funny because Tony Robbins talks about this a lot. He talks about the six different human needs, and one of the things that he says is one human need is variety, right? It's the fact that as human beings, some of us more than others, and some of us at different times of our lives need to experience different things. It sounds like is it so is that is that what you're referring to? It's this need to try new things? It is that.
SPEAKER_00That is definitely an access by itself, the variety. Yeah. It is also about impact. Yeah. As to in each setting, yeah, incrementally, will you make more impact in this next thing that I'm evaluating, right? So, for example, from going and consulting to building what became the largest aggregation of sightseeing tools and experiences in the world. Yeah, to me, to me took me back all the way to that sounds like a Milana level challenge. Starting from zero, we will go in and we will create the largest aggregation of tools and experiences. And we'll build a platform for that as pioneers, right? Uncharted territory, right? So the excitement of that challenge, the impact it has on people's lives in terms of what it makes possible for travelers to, you know, pre-book and make the most out of their holiday travel, et cetera. Right, you know, it's very exciting to me in terms of what we can contribute and make a difference on that. So my co-founder and CEO who came from the industry and and myself, we got together, we wrote the business plan and put our life savings into it and took that plunge. So it was very risky, but but there were all these things about variety, challenge, impact it will have. And the challenge also measured up in terms of um looks very hard, but if we apply ourselves, we can do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's it's why why was why was impact so important to you? Tell us more about that. Yeah, I I just I just don't think because I hear that word a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so I I read impact as contribution, right? A life inherently, at least from what I've seen, may not have too much purpose. I've really looked for one. And I figured actually, what gives me meaning all the time is about can I make a difference? Can I make an impact? And that is the same thing as am I contributing? Right? So, by the way, on a different time than Patrick, I also I also believe in karma, right? So the way this triangulates in my own head is that if you are living in a context of surrender and acceptance that you are dealt the hand that you've dealt in terms of your environment, your setting, your family, you control where you work, etc., to some extent. But on a more day-to-day basis, you are where you are, and so you accept it, right? You don't question it every day. And in that acceptance, you have to find how will I make a difference, how will I contribute? And that spells out your responsibilities, your actions, your tasks, or your karma. You then need to just fulfill those things and make the difference that you can in that environment and focus on what you can control.
SPEAKER_02But how do you define contribution? Because you you've mentioned contribution a lot, but what does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so that happens at uh different levels, right? You contribute directly to the people you work with, right? As a leader, you are coaching, guiding, steering. You're you're contributing to people's kind of career directions and learning trajectories and lives on the one hand. On the other hand, the sum total of that is how the organization then contributes to the external world in terms of, for example, at Health Hero, where I am now, we deliver digital healthcare across four countries in Europe. We are the market leader in that. We reach more than 30 million lives. And the fact that we are able to do these things in a very effective digital delivery mode where patients are or users are able to access the service seamlessly in so many ways from portals, web apps, and other channels. And the fact that there is seamless access to healthcare and there is a very efficient delivery behind it from clin clinicians, which basically unlocks efficiency in a world where clinic where clinical time is mighty constrained. So the fact that you can make it more efficient clinically, and the fact that you can make it more seamless for the patient is is a contribution in some total to society at large.
SPEAKER_02Right. Right, right. But then you just you just hit the nail on the head, though, right? It's when I hear what you just said there, you know, to quote what you just said, to to make a contribution to the society at large, right? So it sounds like over the course of one's career, you shift from a focus on significance, right? And oftentimes my significance in society is the need to be seen. It's the need to be seen as successful. It's the need to have the fancy car, the house on the beach, X amount of money in my bank account, X number of board roles, whatever, be CEO, be VP, be whatever. And eventually it sounds like you get to a point in your career, at least from what I'm hearing, you were starting to go down that direction in your case, where it's not as much about significance, although significance is still important, but it sounds like it's more about contribution as it's defined as the need to give beyond yourself and to help others. How is that as an assessment?
SPEAKER_00That is say, um, in fact, unsurprisingly, that aligns with um stakeholdership as well. Because if you're contributing to employees, investors, customers, and in some total, the society, the kind of idea of business management was that. Now, of course, we are all distracted to some extent or more extent by significance and and other things that come along the way, but ultimate contentment really doesn't come from that. That you and I know. And and I think by this stage in life, one wise up to those things as well. So of course, I've I've chased significance and titles and all of those things all in my life. We all have, yeah. But but by this time, you you But the the returns are short-lived. The the returns are short-lived. And in it is incredible if you take the kind of uh really macro view at not just the world but at a universe level, right? And we all know that this is just um not even a moment of time on a speck of dust. Yeah. And that's what we are here, you know, as as as as as dwelling that little speck. And frankly, in that ultimate cosmos, this just has no meaning, right? So therefore, instead of that long-term significance, if one actually dwells on moment-to-moment contribution, I think there is far more contentment, presence, flow, and life satisfaction from that.
SPEAKER_02What advice would you give somebody who maybe is listening to this, watching this, who maybe is midlife, you know, somewhere between 45 and 60, feels successful on paper, but is not getting that fulfillment, is not feeling that they are contributing. What should they do?
SPEAKER_00I think people need to have the courage and give themselves the freedom to be completely authentic. Right? What that means in practical terms is go away in silence, figure out what you're really, really about, what makes you tick, what are your real interests? What did you want to be when you were a child?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that one.
SPEAKER_00And somewhere, I think this this child child dimension is important in more ways than one. I'll I'll stay on that tangent and I'll come back to your your question. But you know, the other thing that children have besides a dream and an aspiration is a sense of wonder. Yes, that's very true. And you look at people around us, and how many of us have retained any degree of sense of wonder? And and that correlates with gratitude, that that correlates with being present, that correlates with being fascinated with life itself. And if you're not having that in your life, it is because you're either not spending time with the right things on the right activities or with the right people, or you're not searching for what you're really about and realigning to those interests, right? So you you just have to be that much present to your own hidden charter of your own life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you have. Absolutely right. And you know, it's I was at an event here in Miami a few months ago in November, and they were they interviewed some of the top people in business and sports. They had Rafa Nadal, Serena Williams, Jeff Bezos, Eric Schmidt, Ken Griffin from Citadel. They had some really remarkable people, Jamie Diamond, and they asked them what were the three things that they credited with their success in life and in business. And they all basically said the same thing, which I found fascinating. They said curiosity, right? Which goes a little bit to your sense of wonder. Yeah. The second one was humility, because of course, when you're constantly trying new things, you're going to fail a lot, right? Things are going to fuck up and you're going to be like, you know, you feel like an idiot when you try something, it doesn't go well often, right? So you, you know, your sense of humility helps you start over and not so worry so much about failure or defeat. And then the third thing that they talk about, which, you know, I think that you've you've probably been through a lot of this as well in your career, is resilience, right? It's it's this need that since you're gonna be curious and humble and go out and try a lot of things, you're gonna get knocked on your ass a lot, which means you need to be able to get back up and think about what you learned and hopefully emerge stronger. Yeah. What would you say in your career so far, and and now looking at what you're doing with Health Hero, which has definitely been hard? I mean, cobbling together seven companies and or four companies in seven months is not easy. And growing at that speed, we know private equity moves at at fast speeds, right? This is not for the faint of heart. What what's what's your formula for bouncing back? How do you overcome adversity and come back stronger when times get very tough? Right.
SPEAKER_00By the way, uh, it was joining like seven companies in about eight months. You have to be more than a lot of people. Okay, so it's even worse. It's even harder. Yes, yes. And yeah, it it it is actually much harder as a startup because you're not infrastructured to do these things. You you don't have a cop dev team or an MIA team, right? You're a startup. So you're cobbling together things in a hurry and making extreme lines. But but to your question about uh you know adversity and and how I deal with that in this situation. Look, um commitment I think is the more um important keyword here than than resilience. Let me let me explain. So with commitment, you are taking a stance, you're having a strong intention, and then you will throw yourself at it and do everything it takes. Mm-hmm. Now, now resilience may or may not reflect itself in the process. But resilience I found, I find normally is is rooted in the idea that you fail and it is so miserable, and then you're able to cope with it. And you know, resilience has a bit of a connotation of facing failure and so on. But to me, facing failure is an issue when you have significance. If you yourself do not have significance in the matter and you're just pursuing the cause, irrespective of how you look in the process, I think it is just pure commitment then. You see, the the the strength of commitment is adequate to just see you through. And look, the the these are these are correlated. I I don't deny. Is that is that commitment or is that purpose? Is there a difference? I'm thinking.
SPEAKER_02That's a good question, right? Because I can I can like I may have promised that I'll do something for you and I'm committed to it because I have told you I'll do it. But if I am driven by purpose, then I have a much bigger reason for doing it. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00So to me, to me, these are these are interchangeable in in in some ways. But the way I would frame it is, you know, purpose in this example would be the not star of what you're actually pursuing. Right. But every action, every task, every little thing you will do, and every wound you will scratch and get up and then start running again is commitment. So so commitment is the little task and every step in that direction of pursuing that ultimate purpose, the goal that you set. And yes, one can say that you have to be resilient in doing so, but but but resilience also sounds like the ability to cope with failure. But where is failure if you're not significant? It's a good question.
SPEAKER_02It's a good question. I mean, this is why, you know, I I, as you know, I do a lot of keynote speaking uh, you know, all around the world. And and one of the things I get asked by a lot of organizations to talk about is, you know, how do you bounce back in an age of artificial intelligence when everything is changing so quickly, right? There's a lot of people who are having to make a lot of change very, very quickly. And when you're making change very, very quickly, chances are very good that you're gonna fail. Because it's you're gonna try something and it's not gonna work the first time, right? You're gonna, you know, you're gonna write the prompt incorrectly, or you're gonna write the prompt and it's gonna give you a response that wants to flatter you instead of the response that you actually need. And so, and so the funny thing is, you know, when when I talk about, you know, our ability to kind of like push through and make massive change and become resilient, I came to the conclusion that there, that there, that there's these five pillars that that help you become resilient. And one of those failures, one of those pillars is our ability to reframe failure, right? You talked about it from the perspective of one of the reasons why you wanted to continuously change careers, right, was growth. Right? You see an opportunity, but you also feel that you need to grow and you need the variety, and then you want the contribution. Growth is amazing, but by by default, growth is going to require pain, right? If you looked at you look at it from a weight training analogy, this is the thing that they always tell you where when you're most hurting in the gym, that's where the growth is coming from. And it hurts. And the same thing can be said about any kind of career. When you're having that growth and it's painful and it hurts, and you're able to push through it, that's when you toughen the resilience muscles. That's when you're, that's when you're able to get through it more easily. Yeah. And in your case, since you've done so many hard things, going all the way back to you know, your architectural expedition in the Himalayas, right? That kind of set the that kind of set the tone for you at a very early age. It gave you that confidence, it gave you the ability to do something very hard so that you can kind of connect back always to that ability. And then every time you do something hard, you know, it becomes even stronger, right? The resilience muscle is growing and growing and growing and growing. And so the next hard thing that you do, it's not that it's not hard anymore, but it's not as daunting anymore. And you've developed the techniques to get through it. You see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00That is, absolutely. And it makes it sound more exclusive and original than it actually is. I I really think, Patrick, that if you focus on commitment rather than success and failure. This is another way of saying, and you've heard this before. It is commitment with detachment from the result. That's the zone to be in. Because the moment you're in that zone, you're not worried about failure, you're not relishing your success because it's not about you. Success and failure happen to you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Right? And that's where resilience is needed in you. Exactly. But commitment is actually outside, it's not in you. Commitment is for the things that you will make happen outside. Yes, you are committed, but it is to the things outside you. So your focus is not inward, it's outward. Right? Exactly. So so the beauty of that is it detaches you. And the beauty of detachment is that you're not afraid because it's not about you. Right.
SPEAKER_02Right. You're more committed to the process than to the destination. It's the journey, not the destination.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02They uh they they did uh they did an interview of Kobe Bryant, you know, the late Kobe Bryant, uh years ago. And they asked him, Kobe, what kind of athlete are you? Are you are the are you the athlete that is just obsessed with winning, or is it more about the fear of losing? Which I thought was an interesting question. And his but his answer was that was was amazing. And his answer was neither. He's like, I'm the athlete who's in it for the learning. Wow. There you go. Right? He's not, he's not, it's not about the obsession with winning or the fear of losing. It's about it's about the journey. So I think it's it it seems to speak a little bit to what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00And Patrick, this comes back to the philosophy of karma, right? Which perhaps is another episode altogether. Yeah, probably but but but but that is that is the realm. Commitment without detachment is the realm of career. Yes. So yeah, so so look, um, you're right about the level of change people will need to navigate and the kind of hard things they will need to undertake or kind of uh do do do a self-operation or surgery for themselves in terms of you know coming out on the other side of the big changes and how they will hack people. But I think people need to come out of fear and get into a mode of possibility and being very inspired by a target state that they define for themselves out of their own sense of meaning, their own sense of interest, their passion, etc. Yeah write their own write their own charter and pursue it without fear because what's the worst thing that will happen even if people fail? Right. And I I I don't make light of that. I I don't I don't I don't think it's easy for everyone to fail because in a material world, you know, there are levels of threshold you can't breach in your failure. Yeah. You need to have your house, you need to eat. So so to that end, you need to have the minimum level of practical sustenance, and after that, you have to go for the big hits of possibility rather than trying to protect yourself all the time. Because from what I've seen, majority of people, at least that that team meet, right? Even if they have a failure of you, they will survive. It's not a question of survival, right? But but if you don't go for that big change and big leap, the possibility of thriving and finding something truly inspiring is for God. I agree.
SPEAKER_02Last question before we we wrap up with our lightning round of questions, which is three quick questions, three quick answers. I asked the same questions to each guest. I wanted to I wanted to ask you this last question on the very topic that you just spoke of because it's so important, right? When when I've worked with with leaders and organizations or done group work with teams, everybody right now is in this crazy state where we're all just drinking from a fire hose of information and trying to adapt and change as the world is changing at an exponentially faster rate around us. What would you tell somebody or what advice or tip would you give somebody to overcome their fear and step out of their comfort zone and try something different, whether it's, I don't know, a new way of working, a new process you have to change, launching a new product, launching a new business, changing careers, changing company. We all face this moment when we know we need to do something different, right? Maybe that speaks to the variety, right, that we need or we want to make a contribution. But so many people get stopped by fear and it just paralyzes them. What techniques or what have you done to overcome fear when you've come face to face with it?
SPEAKER_00Right. So let me uh let me take this in two parts about generally what I would say to people in preparation for AI and the change relatedly and navigating careers. I mean, from from an AI perspective, right? I think this is in in chess parlance, this is the opening. You have a middle game and an end game. In the middle game, I see AI and humans together, and it it is uh really joint working and human in the loop in every walk of life. So what you need to do is prepare for this middle game first, which is human in the loop, and then see whether you are on the technical side of driving the AI, or are you on the human side of complementing the expertise that AI might lack? And in the meantime, you are holding forth by being the backup to AI as the as a human checker. If AI is a maker, you are the checker. And and in healthcare, for example, in the foreseeable future, you you have to have clinicians in the loop. No, no regulation is going to let it completely lose and leave it entirely to AI in the next few years. Now maybe maybe even in seven years, uh it's a very different word, but at least in the next three to five, I would argue that human in the loop is the dominant scenario. Right? And that's true in many industries. I agree, I agree. Right? So in the middle game, you play to that mix and see which side you fall on, but you have to be very clear about which side you're on and how. Yeah. And in the end game, now that's a much harder one. Okay, this is uncharted territory where let's say AI does take over. Right? Now, in that uh era of super intelligence, whether that happens in seven years or whether it happened in 17, that that that should come at some point. And at that point, I think it's really about backing into some things which are very hard for AI to do. I I really do think there are some last bastions which may take the longest for AI to totally invade. I read about professions like gardening and plumbing and and and and being and being a chef and I'm spending more time with my plants uh this weekend. You're you're in the right, you're on the right track. So so you you know, doing doing doing those things which some of these, if they're of your interest, great, right? But they're in a societal question as well about how you allocate resources in that direction and ultimately in the direction of saving the planet while making sure everybody has a universal basic income out of the sheer economic gain that AI should enable, right? So there is there is that world possibility as well, which comes into the equation in the end game, and it's not without governments and policy that that we will reach there. But it's a middle game you you need to worry about right now. Yeah. Yeah. Now talking about um I think your your second part of the question goes about how I navigate adversity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what what what tools or techniques do you use to to overcome fear when you're when you find that emotion welling up in your chest, right? What what do you do?
SPEAKER_00So I I find that um there are well, I haven't found anything which we can't solve if you really apply yourself. And and the way to do that in practical terms is one, I break down problems and issues into parts and and uh sometimes microparts, because sometimes it can be um an issue, for example, a big organizational issue, right? Where you have to think about uh the process, the theme, yeah, yeah, the impact on others at the same time. So you'll break it down in parts and then you will actually solve it part by part and think through each part because you can get overwhelmed in soaking in the entire problem, but when you make it into manageable parts, it is generally easy to overcome in steps, right? So you have to maintain your cool to break things down into parts, number one. And and number two, I find that if I have narrowed down on the part that is bothering me the most, or the parts that are bothering me the most, right? And dwell on it, especially if I take that problem in my mind even to my sleep, and it's not disturbing me too much. It it is something I'm willing to dwell on, and and then in the morning, with a clear mind, with a piece of paper in my hand and cup of tea on the on the other, I'm able to actually sit and focus and think through. I often keep my morning time just clear to solve the hardest problems. And and hardest here is completely relative, right? I I don't think I have too many of them. But whatever is bothering you, if you can get that out of the way first, it also clears your mind to focus on other things and be more productive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a I think that's a good idea. So the the takeaway here is break it down to smaller into smaller chunks so you can focus on individual chunks and also your state of mind, right? Which which is always going to be better in the mornings because you ostensibly you've had uh uh hopefully a good night's sleep, also helps in having clarity to be able to solve the problem. That's great. Three lightning rounds.
SPEAKER_00Last part on that, Patrick. I I would I would I would add, and then uh this is one of my favorite tips from Naval Ravikant. I don't know if you've read the guy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have read his book, The Almanak. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He he's he's he's amazing, right?
SPEAKER_02Great book.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I'm a huge fan. And one of the things he says is the best creative exercise you can do for practically free is take a long shower. So true.
SPEAKER_02No, so is so true. I have I have a shower notebook that when I when I I some of my best ideas come in the shower, and I know I'm not the only one, right? I have a shower notebook, I get out of the shower and I freaking write in the notebook because sometimes I get the best ideas when I'm in the shower.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So you need a voice note taker in the bathroom, by the way. That's what I'm getting to now.
SPEAKER_02There you go. There's a good product for Kickstarter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely out there, and it's it's very powerful, in fact. Uh and it's and it's AI powered now. Absolutely. Go go go for the quick try.
SPEAKER_02The lightning round, because we're we are way over time, but but this has been a fascinating conversation, regardless. So, three quick questions, three quick answers. Question number one for you is if you could have any superpower, what would it be? It would be to read people's minds. Very cool. Yeah, I I like that one too. Um, if you could have dinner with any person in history, alive or dead, who would it be? Mahatma Gandhi. Okay. I thought you might say Alexander the Great, but hey. Be true to yourself. It's more than a word. Yes, it is, but it's it works. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. I love your your honesty, your authenticity, your openness, your curiosity. You know, I think uh from the early journey in the Himalayans, which really shaped you as the person that you are today, to now uh running Health Hero in across Europe and putting together all these companies to make an impact, to make a meaningful difference in people's lives. I think you know your story is inspiring and your your tips and life lessons are very helpful for a lot of people. So I want to thank you for being on the show, for sharing uh all these tips, your journey, your stories with all of us. I hope people have a chance to uh to take something away from it. Where can people learn more about Health Hero or about you or what you do? HealthHero.com is our website.
SPEAKER_00I post it to you as well. We could put it in the comments. Fantastic. I'll share my LinkedIn as well. So that will that will cover that. Thank you for the opportunity, Patrick. It's for it was a fun conversation, and you do make me uh think and reflect, and that that's always a nice little stretch in the evening. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're you're very welcome. You're very welcome. And folks, you know, for uh for those of you who uh tuned in today, don't forget to subscribe to the show, leave us any comments, like the show if it uh had an impact on you. And you know, most importantly, share the show with somebody else who might be struggling. There's a lot of people out there out of work, there's a lot of people with a lot of uncertainties, some of which are trying to make career decisions, career pivots. Hopefully, this conversation has a couple of nuggets of wisdom that will be useful to uh to these people. And you know, you'll find more information about Bodice Team, about uh Health Hero and other things in the show notes. And we will catch you on the next episode. Thank you for turning in. Stay curious, stay humble, and keep growing.