Why This Female CEO Bet Everything on AI

"Watch This Space."

Those were the three words that sent shockwaves through the Dutch tech scene last week when Marili 't Hooft-Bolle announced she was walking away from Trengo. But if you know Marili, you know she does not do "safe". 

From her early days at McKinsey to scaling WeTransfer, Marili has built a career by running toward the fire, especially when that fire is a massive technological shift like AI.

In this episode of Mork Unfiltered, we are peeling back the layers on what it really looks like to lead a radical transformation. Marili opens up about the brutal reality of turning a legacy company into an AI-native powerhouse, including the gut-wrenching decision to replace nearly 85% of her engineering team just to survive the next wave.

We also dive into the "messy middle" of being a woman in leadership. Marili shares a raw, unfiltered story about being told she would not have been promoted if the company knew she was pregnant, and the powerful lesson she learned about choosing which battles are actually worth your life’s energy.

Whether you are a founder at a fork in the road or a leader trying to navigate the AI revolution, this conversation is a masterclass in betting on yourself when the system was not designed for you.

Chapters:

00:00 – The "Bombshell": Why Marili walked away at the top.
05:15 – Childhood Grit: How growing up with brothers shaped a "fighter" mindset.
11:00 – Leaving McKinsey: Choosing execution and "unknown territory" over status.
17:45 – The Microsoft Rejection: Why she said "no" to a major role to stay authentic.
26:30 – The Pregnancy Bombshell: Dealing with blatant discrimination in the boardroom.
35:00 – Hiding the Resume: The reality of ageism in the tech world.
44:00 – The AI Pivot: Why she replaced 85% of her engineers to save Trengo.
54:30 – Leaving the Peak: How to know when your mission is truly finished.
57:40 – Lightning Round: Oprah, Superpowers, and the best advice for young women.

#MorkUnfiltered #WomenInTech #AITransformation #CEOSecrets #EngineeringCulture #LeadershipTruths #BetOnYourself

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Then the first thing that my manager said is, oh, had we known, we probably wouldn't have given you the job.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Where did that drive come from?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

On the one hand, you're like, you know, daddy's little princess, the only girl in the household. On the other hand, they would punch me as hard as they would punch each other.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

What's perhaps the disadvantage or the downside to being wired that way?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

You know, you don't always have to be nice, and you don't always have to be light.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

If you could give one piece of advice to a young woman starting her career, what would you tell her? Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered, folks. Let me begin by asking you guys a question. Imagine you just got promoted. You worked really hard for it, you earned it, and then as a woman, you find out you're pregnant. And you have a meeting with your boss, and he looks at you straight in the face and he says, Had we known that you were pregnant, we probably wouldn't have given you the promotion. What would you do with that? Today's guest didn't fall apart. She didn't quietly accept it either. She fought, and then she made a choice that took more courage than the fight itself. That moment is just one chapter in a career that has never once taken the easy road. She walked away from McKinsey because she wanted to work in industries that were being turned totally upside down, not advising them from the sidelines. She scaled weed transfer as COO, and then she took the helm as CEO of Trango when she had to unfortunately take the tough decision of removing over 80% of the engineering team as they refused to step into the AI era. She's been written off, put in the wrong box, and once quietly removed years off her LinkedIn profile just to be given a fair shot. She speaks five languages, sits on the advisory board of TomTom, has never once waited for anyone's permission to do what she needed to do. And she has one piece of advice for women starting out their career out there, which is this rather regret what you have chosen to do than regret what you didn't choose to do. This is a conversation about what it really takes to blaze your own path when the system was never designed for someone like you. This is Mork Unfilter, and this is Mary Lee Huthoft Bola. Welcome, Mary Lee, to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Thank you. Well done on the name.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I had lots of practice, as you could tell. So hours and hours in front of the mirror. Cool. Well, listen, I um I thanks for being on the show today. You know, this exciting time for you. I mean, we'll we'll get into some of what you can share, what you can't share later. But, you know, uh the fascinating thing about your story, you know, is that people's stories always kind of have their origins, you know, in in in childhood and where they're young, and a lot of that shapes us. So take us a little bit back to the beginning. Um, you know, you grew up in a in a household, you know, where your mother was a stay-at-home mom, if I understood correctly. You went on, you got three degrees, and you built, you know, one of the most ambitious careers that I've ever seen. So, you know, my first question really is where did that drive come from?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

It's interesting. And it's always interesting how people define ambition, right? For me, ambition is always about a goal, but my kind of how I operate is very much about the journey, not as much about the destination, interesting enough.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

And um, yeah, I grew up uh um uh in a in a steady household. My parents are still together, they'll be married 60 years in two years' time. So um, so that is a blessing in itself, I think. Uh nice cards to be dealt there in between two brothers, and so you know, there was one Barbie, she had no hair, and she was on their guillotine. Um, and if I wanted to play, I had to be take part in G.I. Joe rather than you know anything else. So um, and I think that does uh define a little bit. Uh on the one hand, you're like, you know, daddy's little princess, the only girl in the household. On the other hand, they would punch me as hard as they would punch each other. So it also kind of roughens you up, and it I guess it makes you a little bit more competitive, right? Boys is always like, first, I'm the you know, the fastest, I'm the whatever. And so I wanted to compete in uh in all of that too. Um, and then secondly, I think I was lucky to um to be going through school quite easily, and so I actually started school sooner than others because uh I taught myself how to read, interestingly enough. So I was four or maybe not even four, and I was in the backseat of my mom's car, and I said, Mom, what does Gomon mode mean? And it says woman fashion women's fashion, and she's like, you know, where'd you pick up that word? It's like, well, it says so on on that store, and then she looked around and was like, What? And so I take in some of my brother's books, and yeah, I obviously I don't recall this myself. So I think lucky to to be you know somebody who learns quickly. Um, and then um what is interesting on the one hand, um very stimulated to go and do and learn and whatever. And the thing is, if you're good in school, your parents and obviously we're Gen X, right? So our parents didn't care as much anyway, and so there's a lot of uh time to roam free. And if your school work is fine and you get good grades, people pay even less attention, right? So I had a lot of freedom to just go and do my parents trusted me at a very young age. I was able to go and do stuff. I moved out of the house at 17 and lived abroad, and and I they all I always felt that I had their trust. So I uh you know, I was never worried about things. And so when you say ambition, for me it's more drive and and kind of eagerness to uh to learn. Um and that's probably also what drives you know a few of the decisions, and even the one that I've recently made, um, to be venturing into unknown territory and stuff that I haven't figured out, or that's going in into let's say a transformational phase, that's where I kind of thrive. I had a discussion with my husband. Should I just jump on a you know a train that's clearly destined for somewhere and it's easy and it's predictable? He's like, you're you're you're not gonna like it. You'll you you you you seek out stuff that's um is uh in transformation. And obviously, you and I were in the same year in um in business school. And also then, you know, the typical road is there's all these um investment banks and and consultancies that come and recruit. None of the companies I was interested in were coming to campus. So I was actually speaking to startups. It was the first kind of Amazon came about, and I was like, whole industries are going upside down here. This is where I want to play. And so uh that's kind of the drive. And how that comes about for my history or background or family, I'm not entirely sure, but um that's maybe yeah, but it's it's it's interesting, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Because it's like it sounds like you're wired to some extent not to play it safe.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah. Uh but and you know what is interesting there is my dad has been a banker all his life, and we were insured against whatever we could be insured, like you know, he had double insurance and stuff, so he's very much about risk management, etc. And both my brothers are entrepreneurs, and I also have a pretty entrepreneurial career. So maybe it's that safety that actually allowed us to do it, or I don't know, but we're pretty much the opposite of how my dad operated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Did you ever have an entrepreneurial situation or venture that you jumped into that you thought to yourself, maybe I bit off more than I could chew?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Uh yeah, or maybe I didn't investigate enough. I I go by uh I go by intuition a lot, but I I kind of do some due diligence as well. But at some point you just go and jump. And there was a company that I joined, and uh they were looking to kind of broaden, internationalize, go into 30 uh countries and roll out, and then you know, two months or one month, and then even I was like, oh my god, this product is just nowhere near even being ready in its own market, let alone for you know trying to sort of amplify this problem in 30 other ones. And so I stayed there for a short time. I did try and kind of focus on where the product needed to go, and uh, but then just me waiting for product to get ready, that was also a bit of a way. So again, I I you know I do make myself redundant in places, and I'm not afraid to do that, yeah, where it makes sense from a company point of view.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

What what has all this taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Um that I like variety. Uh that's very clear. On the on the home front, I'm pretty steady. Uh, you know, uh my husband was my boyfriend 30 years ago, so I'm still the same person. So that's kind of pretty stable. And everything around that, I like for it to move. And so, same as travel, I prefer not to go back to places that I've been to. I prefer to go into unknown again. So I think that's that is very clear throughout everywhere. And the other thing that has told me uh personality-wise, is like I'm always an all-in type of person. I can't do a halfway sort of, you know, gray middle. It's like when I'm in, I'm in. And whether that is sports or, you know, relationship or or work, I um I'm I'm that way. Actually, one of my uh first feedback rounds in McKinsey was my very first job out of university, was you work like you play field hockey. And uh and I was like, okay, well, I I hadn't thought about it then, but I was like, yeah, there's actually a good comparison, uh, comparison here. And I remember also I once did a workshop um and it was a a boxer, so it was a boxing clinic, and he was also a psychologist. Um, and then there was also an assignment, and and he was like, You're the first person who's even you know started when I haven't even finished explaining, and you're like full on in it, and so it like your personality shines through, I guess, in more fields than just work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

What's what's perhaps the disadvantage or the downside to being wired that way?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I yeah, I I I don't think of it as such. I mean, it's per personality is personality, right? I think knowing yourself, and particularly in our you know, the the phase we're in in life, it's it's good to know where you're at and how you operate. And so you also understand where you might get energy and where you you you might your energy might be drained. But uh yeah, what is the downside? Uh uh in feedback around what I get is sometimes I'm you know too goal-driven sometimes, or you know, you're seven steps ahead and just you know, look behind you, make sure that everyone's on board and understands where you're going, or that type of stuff. So I, you know, there's it's there's always uh two sides to any coin, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I I got that feedback once as well, is that I tend to go too fast and I just assume that everybody is on the same page. But my brain is moving at a speed which not everybody is is is always used to. So um, yeah, that's just some that that's just uh very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

And and also sometimes people's um, so and this is actually more on the my husband's like, oh, you're always you know, you you see the negative side, and I'm like, no, I don't see the negative side. I just think about 12 different scenarios that might say I'm gonna figure out what I might do there, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

So for me, it's more like uh gameplay or whatever than uh than than doom thinking or now you you were, as you mentioned, you were early on in your career, right, at McKinsey, and and and you know, that's a place which you know uh considered by many, many people to be very prestigious. You know, you can build a very, very successful, you know, very profitable career doing that. And you know, you you then leave McKinsey and walk away, you know, fairly early in your career, and you go on to, I believe, join, I think it was Endemol. Is that is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

TV production company.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Right, which is, you know, I mean, yeah, Endemol is is relatively well known in in Europe, but it again, it's not it's not necessarily seen in the same light as McKinsey. What was what was your thinking there? Why why did you make that that transition?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

First of all, I I think starting at McKinsey was great, right? You get a view into so many different types of companies and and uh teams and disciplines and whatever. So I thought it was great. And everyone around you is smart, everything has everything done yesterday. It's kind of a bubble that's not reality. But then soon I was like, okay, this is great, you make a plan, but then all these companies that were advising, they have the challenges. You never have the perfect talent, you never have all the budget, you never you still have to make it happen, right? So I was like, oh, maybe the execution size is actually where the challenge sits more. And then I also looked at the partner group, and then I did feel that I that was not, let's say, people, I was like, that's the role model I want to be, uh, in the end. Uh that was my reason for leaving. And I know the name was prestigious and whatever. But the second one was actually that during our time at INSIA, it was a very pivotal moment in the internet actually starting to really hit um uh some some you know uh uh bigger strides. I don't know if you recall, but this is where all the Gorilla Park or what were they something like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. You know, there was all these setups and web companies starting everywhere, and that was for me a reason to say, hey, literally, like that was my thought. There's whole industries going upside down here. How exciting to be in that space. And let's see, you know, what that brings. And so this is where I chose a TV production company that was actually on the brink of figuring out what to do with these new screens. And one was the the computer, but then uh the the phone obviously followed soon after.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Well, what do you think your biggest challenge was while at Endable?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Um, they had grown through uh acquisition, so they would buy production companies in several countries, and and we were a small team in headquarters trying to tell these country directors that the web was, you know, an opportunity, and they only saw it as a cost, and so you know, eating into their bonuses and whatever. So there was a big internal stride for this is actually more than just you know having to spend extra. This is a whole new way of talking to your audience rather than just selling to a broadcaster, you now have a direct channel to your end consumer that you've never had before, and now you know see how he can make money off it. But then actually on the back of, as you recall, like you know, big brother first-time reality TV, which was this big thing. Um, I think Annemore actually taught half the world how to send text messages. Uh and the text messages had a premium on them then, and there was you know good collaborations with the uh MOA operators who were in their market also playing a whole consolidation place. Whoever had unique content was uh more likely to eat rather than be eaten by by the next one, and so then suddenly everyone's like, Oh, there is money to be made here, and so made it easier. But I would say the internal kind of getting the buy-in for this whole new world.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

And then at some point it sounds like you get offered a fairly senior role in Microsoft Europe's consumer business, but then you turned it down. I mean, for some people that sounds like a crazy decision, kind of like what what was your thinking there?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So, my thinking there was I was flattered, but I it also felt that I was, you know, how sometimes when you work with the recruiters and the headhunters, you kind of get sucked in this thing, and before you know it, like everyone's like excited, and then and you really have to sleep on it. And so my thinking was amazing company, actually great atmosphere, great culture. Also, the person who I was gonna work for as the general manager, also I was gonna run their consumer business for uh for the Benelux. Um, and but then I was like, I'm first of all going to be in just a go-to-market um uh uh part of the company, and the actual product, right, is not mine to kind of influence. That's sitting in the US, and so I'm gonna have to bargain if I want something. And then the second one was like uh this was when Chrome was you know starting to come up. I was like, uh they're gonna make me use Explorer and do, but I'm not gonna be a user, and then I'm gonna have to sell it. It just didn't feel truthful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Oh my God. So it sounds like it sounds like part of it was driven by a fundamental need to believe in the product, which maybe you didn't have. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

No, I mean you how can you, you know, that like I said, I'm an all-in type of person, so I need to kind of believe and trust where I'm at. And also, I I I I probably didn't feel that the main innovation was gonna come from, you know, where they were at that time and still benefiting very much from the Excel word installs and and and explore. And so maybe that also the theme throughout my more career decisions is the status side is not the thing that I go for, right? So I don't need the I mean let's let's say being um let's say accepted that McKinsey is a great stamp of credibility that you get, right, through your career. So that has definitely been helpful. I don't know that that was the reason why I joined them, because the reason why I joined them was actually that at some point I considered studying artificial intelligence, and in our day, that was a sort of elective in um computer science, and then I went to the computer science faculty, and I was like, these people are so not like me. So I then I ended up studying law, which is quite random and very different. And then McKinsey was like it was a little bit like artificial intelligence, the way I thought about it then was like, okay, there's this company and they have all these problems, you get their data, you put it in some model, and then you know, you'll figure out something, uh solution in the end. So that was it did help. But then throughout that, it was never about the what the brand or whatever gave to me in status. I I'd rather have people kind of um commend me for uh personality, work, drive, accomplishments rather than be seen as you know a label.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah, it's interesting because people are different there, right? Some people, their significance comes from the big brand. And you know, that's not something to judge, it's not right or wrong. It's just that's the way they're they're wired. I remember when I was called initially to go work for Google, I initially turned them down, and everybody I knew thought I was absolutely insane. They're like, guy, and they're like, dude, this is Google. Like, you know, this is a director level role. Like, what are you thinking? And I was like, I don't give a shit about these guys. Like, I hate the way they operate, they treat developers like crap, you know. I I don't believe in their product. Like, why would I go work there? And so, uh, and my wife was like, Well, you've been doing startups for a while, you know, maybe maybe getting some stability and getting Google on the resume and getting well paid for a couple of years wouldn't be such a bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Um, you know, I mean, there's lots of rational things, and then there's emotional things, right? And I think I'm I in the end, if you go into the Myers Bricks, my thinking and feeling are actually quite close, but the feeling will always override the thinking, I think, in the end. And I think it this is maybe it is something due to maybe childhood or um I think people who've never had recognition or were never told that someone was proud of them or whatever, um, feel that some of these brands actually give them that recognition and that stamp that they this is their proof, right, to the universe that they they are worth it and they are. And so I'm lucky enough to not have to chase that. I would that's how I would look at it.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

That's super interesting. You yeah, you know, you just gave me two questions that I can't I cannot resist but to ask. So uh on the one hand, you talked about, you know, getting recognition, and and that's a very interesting point that you made because I don't think enough people think about that when they analyze and observe people's careers. So did you then are you then telling me that you got enough kind of like love and support and recognition at home when you were a kid that maybe the need for these big brands and that kind of validation, external validation was maybe less important?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I guess so, yeah. But then, you know, interestingly enough, because I was like this straight A student, and the one time I got a C, my mom bought a cake and she said, Oh, you're normal after all.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Whoa, are you serious? That's no, I'm serious.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

And my mom always says, so if in in the Nellis, you score out of 10, right? So if you score nine out of ten, she would would turn my report card upside down, it would all be sixes, and she's like, okay. So it was it was more like, you know, that way. So when a lot of people are like pushed by their parents, like it's never good enough. My parents were like, okay, you know, it doesn't need to be straight A's all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

That's that's hugely important. I think you just gave the audience there a huge insight. I think so many parents, particularly, you know, I I live and work in the United States, and here, like, you know, it's like a religion to push your kids in school. I mean, maybe not as bad as Asia. You know, Japan, I think, and Korea are much are much more strict and much worse. But uh, but sometimes I do ask myself that question, you know, whether parents do a disservice to their children by pushing them so hard. Yours seem to have had the opposite kind of management of you as a child, and you and and you seem to have self-drive, which came from within. Yeah. The other the other question, which is very interesting, um, you talk about Myers Break.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

So few people that I meet and so few people that I work with as executives have actually spent enough time really looking at themselves internally through all those kind of lenses of psychometrics, coaching, teaching. What's your take on that? How how much time should executives, how much time should founders, how much time should entrepreneurs spend on these kinds of tests and really understanding themselves deeply? What do you what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 21:40

I think there's two things, right? Really understanding yourself deeply, I find super important, right? So it's these things where where do you excel? Where are you where do you you know where are your flaws, right? So what do you need to find around you to have complementary skill sets? Yeah. Uh tests do help because they give you insights. There's never a truth, but it's interesting. Like if you take the one with the colors or the MBTI or whatever, a pattern does form and that you either recognize yourself in or you don't. But you know, as you move through the decades, uh the pattern for me never changed much. So kind of there is some truth in these tests. Um, and and I think particularly as an entrepreneur, right? Really knowing where and this is also so I I'm I'm not the one who starts a company, I'm the one who joins a company early on and then figures out. So I usually describe it as what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

I'm like, okay, crystallize what the dot on the horizon is. I asked 30 people in this company, do 30 people tell me the exact same thing? This is where why we're here and where we're going. And the other one is like, how do we get there as fast as we can, spending the least amount of resources and having fun on the way? And whatever I need to do that, that's that's where I come in. But usually there's always these founder transitions. Um and what I tell them is like, you need to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and be be brutally honest as to where you are very good and where you make impact for this company and where you may not, right? And then if out of ego or status you net desperately want to see something on your title, but you're actually an amazing individual contributor, why hold on to that, right? Why manage people and documents and investors and whatever when you should just be building product, for example, or you should just be the evangelist on a stage out there, you know, selling the dream. Um, so I think it's super important to uh to know. And the other one is energy and and and burnout risk, right? So if you are all the time 80% working on the stuff that doesn't give you energy, it's too many hours in a week you spend at work, right? So at some point that's gonna hit you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

So that's super, that's super interesting. So it sounds like you're very conscious of spending time and focusing on the things that give you energy. How did you figure that out? Like, how did you figure out what are the things that give me energy, what are the things that drain me? How and how conscious is that when you're, for example, taking this next step into whatever you're stepping into now, for example?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

I would say now it's very conscious. In the first uh decade of career, maybe the first three to five years, it isn't, right? But soon I learned at McKinsey. So as an analyst there, right? You spend hours and hours building umpty spreadsheets with I don't know how many cells and sheets connected, whatever. And then some guy telling you that you have to color the income side in blue and the cost side of my if you're gonna tell me, you know, what colors to use in my spreadsheet, you know, just go build it yourself, right? So those little things do teach you about what you do like and do not like. And so that a level of detail to me, I'd is I mean, I'll have I'll go to that level of detail if I need to, but I really couldn't care less what color my spreadsheets are, right? As long as the number that comes out is the right one, or at least you're gonna be able to do it. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

That's so consulting. The consultants are obsessed with that shit. It just drives me crazy. I had a manager who did that. It was like he'd come and he'd like look at my slides, he'd be like, that box is not at the same angle as that box. I'm like, dude, seriously? Who cares? The client cares about the content. And his argument, which I thought was interesting, and I thought it was a fair argument, is like, well, we sell boxes, we sell documents, we're charging these people like $60,000 a month just for you to create boxes. So it better be a goddamn perfect box. I was like, all right, that's an interesting point. I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Exactly. So and and I learned to kind of also then adopt behavior that wasn't naturally mine, but it also it really felt like an energy drain, or that some like you know, project manager would sit there and wait for me at 3 a.m. to fax through, because we saw it faxes at you're gonna stay to 3 a.m. to make sure that this fax goes through, then why don't you stay to 3 a.m. and send the fax? Or you know, let me stay till 3 a.m. and I'll send the fax. But if you're gonna just sit here waiting for me to send the fax, that seems stupid, right? That's so true. And so I think there was a thing about control. So I don't like being micromanaged. That was something that was that I definitely learned at McKinsey. And the other one is that I'm more about content than form. Yeah. Right. And then as you move along throughout your jobs, you you encounter a few more of these things, and then it kind of starts, you know, you start to piece together the more um let's say uh uh active way of thinking about this. And before it is just kind of reactive in your experience, and then you know, a few decades in you kind of more consciously uh uh apply some of that, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, absolutely. That's super interesting. I I want to switch gears for a second because I think you know, one of the things I remember about our first conversation and and you know, looking at your background, one of the things that strikes me about you is that you know you're you're a fighter, right? That that's kind of like the feeling that I get is that you know you're a fighter and you've been through situations which you know um certainly most men do not go through, and and most people who watch this show will not necessarily understand. And I remember at some point we were talking about um some very what you felt was some very clear discrimination in in a role that you had. Um I wanted to go there for a second, if you're willing, because I think a lot of women go through this and very few talk about it. Um tell us a little bit about that moment that you got promoted and that you felt you were being discriminated against and and what actually happened and what what that meant to you.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, yeah. Um so I think generally, right, and also starting in a place like McKinsey, I I I spent so many times in boardrooms with you know 20 only male, and then you know, people assumed that I was there to take notes or you know, serve coffee, or that type of stuff happens a lot. And then there was another time where I indeed got promoted, and then uh I just found out I I I was pregnant, um, and then I waited like people do, right, for the first term or whatever. And so then I shared. And then the first thing that my manager said is, Oh, had we known, we probably wouldn't have given you the job. And then I was because it involved travel and whatever. And then I was like, wow, it was so and it was not you know hidden or anything, right? It was just blatantly saying we wouldn't have given you the job. And I was like, okay, uh, let's see how this plays out. Then I was in unfortunate because I uh had a disc herniation because of my delivery and whatever, and my recovery took a little longer. And it was I came back and I was kind of written off. Now I was in the mom category, and I was like, okay, being sidetracked and whatever. And so I I did go first as a into a true fight about that, and then at some point I had a discussion with um my uh uh mother-in-law's sister, who is uh she's on the board of Salesforce and Uber, and she's she's a very respected person. And and she had a bigger fight in her era, right? As the one woman who actually worked full-time, blah, blah, blah. She said, Marilee, you can fight this fight, but is it what is it delivering to you? And she said, until the time that these men have daughters who go through the same thing, they they will never reach the point of realization that you're actually being discriminated against and that you'll be seen differently as a woman. So choose your battle, fight or stay, and do your thing. But how much energy is it gonna take and is it gonna actually deliver? Do you even want to stay then at that company if you win your fight?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Um, and so I think those were wise words, because from my nature, I would have gone all in and just kept pushing to all the way forth if need be.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

How did how did that make you feel though? I mean, like when you think of the emotion that went through your body, what feelings did you have?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Like super unfair. It's like it felt felt so uh uh, you know, I I felt that I had something to bring, and then and before I had the baby, it was all, you know, I was this talent, they were investing or whatever, and then suddenly I was in this different bucket just for no other reason than having a child, right? And I was I was I I started off working uh slightly part-time, and then I figured out, you know, I'm doing all the work anyway. So I even stayed full-time, and I was 10 weeks after my second baby, I was back at work, and um, and still uh uh yeah, it was just like injustice. And so that's something that I don't do well on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

So angry, yeah, yeah, super frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

And then and I mean, when you look back on that decision in hindsight, how do you feel about the decision that you took?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Um, I think I took the right decision in not wanting to stay there. I think maybe I I I mean that I I did a bit of battle before I actually reached that decision. So I think I may have wasted a bit of energy that I shouldn't have. Yeah. And it also uh it's nice to see now that generations do change, right? I mean, when I had my kids, my husband had two days of paternity leave, that was it. Now there's in the Netherlands, at least there's five or six weeks for husbands, and it just makes it all so much easier. Now the working from home is so much easier. I mean, family life is important, right, to all of us. And and and and men are also dads, right? And it's not always the and so when I meet women, I always say one of your most important choices in life, and particularly if you want to start a family, is who do you do that with? Because if you can honestly go 50-50, um, your life's gonna be so much easier. The second one I say is don't make lists like leave the baby at home, shut off your phone, and you'll your husband will figure it out, right? Or your your partner. But but don't put yellow posters on everything that this is the dress they need to wear and this is how the dishwasher needs to be left. Don't micromanage. Right? Yeah, the micromanagement, because then people will wait for the note for you to do, okay, what am I supposed to do? And I'm gonna help you out, right? No, you're you're carrying the responsibility. So I think that's a super important choice of uh how you live your life. And and actually now at our age, you know, we're in this um you empty nester type of uh life phase, and this is where a lot of divorces happen, right? But I see a lot of women with a lot of regrets of uh going to the more traditional model, and I think probably also men having regrets in not encouraging their wives or being complacent or actually quite happy to have had their wife, you know, pack their suitcases, uh, take care of all the school stuff, etc. And then they're like, oh no, I'm gonna have to pay half. I'm like, yeah, but you you kind of had the benefit of that too, right? I would have loved a wife throughout my career.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

That did all of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

What would you say to women who you know, because I think there are a lot of this, particularly in the United States, I I worry about the future with things like that. I mean, I I see so many women that are very, very career-driven, put career absolutely in front of everything, and then you know, are getting into their 30s and 40s, you know, perhaps married, perhaps not, but no children on the horizon. What would you tell women who make that choice?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Do you feel you you mean they make a choice to not start a family because of career, or they they they never want a family?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Well, they make it maybe, maybe they'll I don't even know if they decide it consciously, right? It's just kind of life just flows and at the at the at the rhythm that we're we're moving, you know, sometimes you you just don't really pay attention to it and you wake up five years later and you're getting to an age where you know biologically it's becoming more and it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah, maybe it's and then it becomes harder, and then it becomes a big thing, right? I also I I would say I feel that sometimes we we and and some people m plan everything and they think it's this perfect thing, then I'll buy a house and then I have the career, and then we go on a world trip, and then I'll have a baby. And then I always say, you know, babies don't grow on trees, right? They don't just happen. And so at some point, if you if you find someone you're both convinced that you may want to start a family at some point, I'm a you know, why don't you just see what happens? And if if you're lucky, it happens next month, and that could be early, but you'll never regret that in whatever form, right? If you're with the right person. So I feel that this perfect planning of how to stack up the career and then the family decisions, etc., is a bit of a utopia because that's not how life works, right? This is one of the very few things, and luckily there's you know tons of treatments that actually will help you have a baby if you if there's you know biological reasons why it's harder, but um it feels quite orchestrated, and life isn't that orchestrated. And I think also now the whole dating scene and the the apps, it feels so transactional, right? So you go and then it becomes like a job interview because we're you know, both sides are gonna just tick boxes, and how about just be and you know, uh it's figure out personality? Like it's it's uh it's tougher, I think.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Now I mean, yeah, let's let's not even get don't even get me started about dating because you know I'm a single guy in Miami. I mean, yeah, we could have a whole separate podcast episode just about that. Um I know one of the things that was interesting when we talked last time, and then I saw this at your in your LinkedIn as well, and I really related to it because I've been through something similar. It sounds like you made a conscious decision on your LinkedIn profile to remove a certain amount of years of your experience from your profile. Walk us through the logic on why you did that.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I think ageism is a bit is a real thing. I think uh um because I just see it in practice around me. Uh and actually, I do think men suffer from it more than women. Uh, particularly with now some of the rules about boards have to be, you know, at least 40% of the one gender, etc. I think that's all playing now in the favor of women. And people feel that, oh, should I take it because they're only hiring me because I'm a woman? I was like, well, you'll rock it anyway. So I mean, for decades, no, for centuries, men have had the advantage to just go and you know embrace it and take the seat. But um I I do see that um uh experience of 30 years is valued less. And in the tech space, on the one hand, uh, you know, the the rookies are now actually crushing it over the ones who haven't been there for a long time, right? So uh uh sometimes leaving people guessing a little bit about exactly sometimes you go to the wrong pile just because of age, yeah. Yeah. And age for me is also just energy. And I you you may have the same, but particularly if you go to these things like school reunions or what we had, you know, our business school reunion. It doesn't matter how people look for me. I what is very uh different from the one to the other is energy. And the one is you know still there with the sparkle and the excitement, it's whatever this sort of yeah lost sort of appetite, or I don't know what's you know, it's hard to describe, but um I think that's the one.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

I mean, does it it sounds to me like what you're saying kind of not maybe explicitly is you know, ageism in the workplace is real and and employers are potentially making decisions based on the perceived age of a candidate, not not what they can actually not what their capability is or their energy or their or their ability to impact the business.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah, but some of it is also real, right? If you haven't kept up with some of this technology, and I've seen people struggle just you know, doing a shared uh Google Doc, uh like the modus operandi is so different now from what it used to be that if you're still printing paper and making your notes, you're gonna have a hard time, right? Because everything moves faster and in in all these tools. So you do have to keep up. So there's some truth with it, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah, there's there's definitely some truth. I mean, I I have been forcing myself to use Claude and Claude Cowork and some of these tools, and I've been blown away by how powerful they are and what you're doing. It's crazy, you know? It's unbelievable. I mean, I I'm you know, watching YouTube videos every day and trying new things every day, and every day I'm learning something new, and I'm like, oh my God, I can automate this, or I can tell it to do this. I don't have to do this anymore because it can do it for me. I can do it from my phone, and I don't have to be at my computer. So it it does blow me away um how quickly things are are moving. Um, but I I felt the same as you. You know, I was I was pushed out of a job uh as as chief marketing officer in Silicon Valley back in 2017. That actually ended up being the genesis for the book behind me that I wrote. And part of it was ageism. Part of it was, you know, I was in a very young tech startup. I was, you know, the only guy, uh one of the only guys in his late 40s. And I think that worked against me. And and when I spoke to lawyers about it after I was pushed out, there it was a little bit, I think it was the same conversation you had with this this woman. It was like, yeah, you could fight it, but what's the cost, right? What's what's the point in fighting it? You know, yes, it's wrong. Yes, what they're doing to you is totally unfair. Um, but you know, if you take them on and it gets out, you know, you will probably never work in Silicon Valley again, right? And uh and the funny thing is I ended up leaving Silicon Valley and I haven't worked in Silicon Valley again anyway.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

So it it was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, exactly. But you know, I had that very strong thing where I could really identify with what you're talking about with a pregnancy case. We I I I was so angry and I was like, this is so unfair, these these these bastards, you know, and uh and you know, karma would have it that the company is going through serious issues right now just because the shift to AI is wrecking their the one of their businesses. So, you know, I would say I'm happy that that's happened. Um, but you know, the universe is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Uh yeah, and also that's that's where also this scenario thinking, it's there is never one perfect situation, there's never one truth, right ever. There's optionality and there's choices. And then as you make a choice, you go down a path and that'll bring you something. And if it's you know, whatever it brought you sucked, then at least that's experience that you put in your backpack of life, and then you move in a different direction. So it'll always bring you something, in my view, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Absolutely absolutely. Absolutely. Now, obviously, you know, when you went through this, the situation with a pregnancy, you decide to move past it, you know, you you've you've obviously been a person that has taken on a lot of risk. You've done things that are very hard, I think, you know, by most standard definitions. How like what is it that keeps you grounded as you go through all these things and as you face the kind of challenges that you've faced?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

I would say putting things into perspective, right? So even now in this day, even though we we started the conversation with, right? There's a lot of big things going on in the universe. And a lot of what we deal with in our little bubbles is very first world problems, right? So um, and I'm always like, okay, what's the worst that could happen? And then I always figure out what would I do if the worst happens, right? Let it and I'm just saying obviously losing people dear to you and whatever, that's uh the most terrible thing, and that's probably the worst for anybody, right? But if if you're talking about work situations, so worst is you could get fired or you you don't achieve what you're supposed to achieve, and and then and then what? And then there's always another something you know behind that door. So that's kind of how I I think I I'm grounded. And then I I guess I value family, life, health. It's so clearly at the top of the list uh if that's going well, then you're a lucky person, right? And then if you also find it that fills you in some form, then uh you know that's a that's a true bonus.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

What what kind of rituals or what kind of support system do you have? I mean, different people have different ways of finding support, but one of the things that we also see is is some people, uh, and the irony now is you see it more with men now, just they they they don't have the support networks. And so when they don't have the support networks, they're they're that much more likely to get crushed. What conscious support networks or rituals have you developed to deal with adversity?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I don't know that I have rituals. Maybe I do, but I don't I don't consciously have rituals, I think. Um family, having stable family is is is a great one, right? If you're in the midst of divorce and you're you know super stressed at work or whatever, it's life's a lot tougher, right? You can't have movement in all areas of your life. Um and so, and the other one is um uh women, I guess we're open and we share emotions more easily, right? So there's so many groups of friends where even if we haven't seen each other for a long time, it's immediately real. Um goes down to whatever. But I also think, and maybe you'll experience that too, when we had our reunion last year, the first few years is very much about um bravado and look at my promotion, and I got VP at whatever. It's become so much more real now, right? It's like people are dealing with sick parents, they they are struggling in their marriages, or you know, they've fallen apart, or they have kids who are not very successful, or you know, sidetracked for whatever reason in life, and um and and then again, right? What is the top of your list of what is important in life in values? And I guess you know, this health and love, family relationships is still at the top of the list, and so it was nice to see how also that perspective changes. And so I guess, you know, uh I have I know a lot of people, but I have a few super, super close friends, uh and and and and that's you know, very unconditional. And uh yeah, that's I would say is my support network.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Okay. Um let's talk a little bit about You know, now Trango and the handing off and and and where this is all going, right? So you joined the company, if I remember well, you know, a CEO in September 2023. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

No, it was actually uh three years ago. So I I joined the interim uh in April 23. Um and this was also where, right, when you move in and the founder say on in the company, then you can have lots of meetings in meeting rooms and say, oh, we all like each other, and but you need to be on the floor together. So let's start on an interim basis, let me come up with a plan, and then when we're all bought into this, investors, founders, and me, then let's you know ink it for longer term. So that's kind of what we did. We spent one term uh seeing uh what to do, and then um uh three years flew by uh because the the the place where Trango is operating was in the customer support space initially, and it's actually now customer engagement, and that is proactive and reactive, that's where AI hit first. And when I started, nothing AI in the company, and there was a lot of tech debt and legacy, and then we had to figure out how to turn the whole thing upside down. And so from putting it into the core values, into the job performance plans, whatever, I was like, this is something that's not gonna go away, right? And I think actually the toughest uh challenge, and I if I look at uh some of the software companies around me, also in that time, whatever the space, is that the engineers were dragging their heels most. Um and and it felt like if you I mean this is happening anyway, right? And whether you chose to not embrace it and then move to a different company, the next company is gonna ask you for the exact same thing. So I actually think if you've done 20 years in software and you are willing to embrace this, your value is X you know incrementally increasing because you can have the the bigger steam, like the bigger understanding of technology setup, um uh architecture, um, and also scalability, right? It's great that we can we can uh vibe code some some MVP, but now do that at scale with real data and some of the legacy customers and migrations and all of that, right? So if you can bring that together, you're actually super valuable. But if you resist just for the fact of of coding, uh that you feel that it's never gonna be the same quality, etc., you're gonna lose out uh regardless. And what I also discovered in that transition was actually that um I always thought that as a software engineer, AI is gonna make your job more interesting because instead of having to write everything, you only have to kind of conceptualize and design everything, and then everybody else can help you code. But then there's quite a few software developers who really take pride in their code and they see it as their craft. And I have never realized that as much uh as I did throughout this uh transition. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

How do you navigate that? Because you know, you come in, you see a bunch of things that need to be changed. You see a company that is working in a legacy model, which is now behind the times given where the world is going. But as you just said, there is a certain degree of pride in a person. I was about to say a man, but there are a lot of women engineers too, right? But yeah, definitely. Maybe even more so, you know, men oftentimes tend to be very prideful about this thing. It's like, you don't understand, and you know, if it's not written by me and it hasn't been double-checked, and I have a whole system and I've been doing this for 20 years, don't you just come and tell me how to code? How do you go about making that that cultural shift? How do you go about convincing people that have been doing it for so long in a certain way that there is perhaps a different and better way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yeah, so well, first it starts with the whoever's at the top, right? Can they they demonstrate uh not just saying it, but can are they are they demonstrating the behavior? Because usually whatever happens at the top trickles down. So that's where I started. Found a great person who embraced it fully. And also, so for example, we used to have these um bug meetings, right, where the customer support says, Oh, this and this needs to be fixed, and then engineers and it gets to a list and it gets prioritized, and only the first three get done, and the other 272 never get done, they end up in the graveyard. And this was this guy who would just sit in there, and whilst they were arguing which one had to be in the top of the list, he's like, Oh, I sold bug 7, 17, 12, and while you guys were talking, here's AI, and you know, I just did it right here in this meeting. That's interesting. So it's like showing, showing by doing, but also at some point, um, so with this new person coming in, uh a few months in, uh, I was also like, we have no time, right? So you're either on the train or you're not. If you want to be in this company, you have to be there. So the performance reviews we changed, and it's not putting the bar higher, it was putting the bar in a completely different place. Right. And that was hard for people to understand. But it was also like, so that led to a lot of frustration on that round of performance reviews. But I also said, We're I pretty much with the head of engineering said, we're we're gonna go radical. And that means this this is the only way, right? And so whoever is not there, uh whether they leave voluntarily or involuntarily with a little help, we need to overhaul the entire team and have this mindset. And so pretty much it ended up with uh I think exchanging 80, 85% of the entire engineering team, which was this is why it's painful because it meant at least two quarters of full standstill of not having anything material to the market, which also led to big frustration on the go-to-market teams because they had no support in you know, any customer specific. Can you please tweak this? Can you help me? Can you do the security review? Whatever. They got nothing because the whole team was so frustrated from being pushed into this new way of thinking, etc. So it was really painful. But if I see what's there now and the pace that things are going and how the mentality has changed and the attitude and also the energy and the vibe, it was it was worth it. It was hard though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like it was hard. And you know, one of the things I asked myself, because of course, you know, work the work that I do is, you know, about coaching and supporting people sometimes and helping them significantly change the way they work, right? And it is it is a slow and painful process, but it can be very successful. And the advantage there is that you don't necessarily lose the talent and you don't necessarily send a message to the rest of the organization because the the way that you did it is the more common way, and it's especially the way that we see it being done in the United States is you're either in or you're out. But there is a human cost to that which is significant.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

And so I wonder, you know, if as you look back on it, no doubt it's worked. Um is there any uh is there a way to do it that is more human in the future? If you were gonna do it again, would you do it?

SPEAKER_01 51:02

The cost side of that is time. Yep. Uh and being in the space where this w is hitting first and front and everything, right? Chat bots is kind of the first thing. I don't think we we we had the time. And we gave it a bit of time, and that time didn't show any progress or not sufficient enough to say we're gonna continue this.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

So how much of that could be changed, or how much that time could be compressed through leadership development?

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Partially it can. Um, but I like I said, compressing and that I think that the other factor is just time. That that doesn't happen overnight. And replacing somebody obviously does happen overnight, and then that that's a fresh attitude and a different uh way of of looking at it. And and then I have to also admit, I um I don't think the the the entire set of engineers that we had, there were some very, very good engineers, and also the ones who really understood the legacy product, right? Which is always important in these scale-ups because there's always so much non-documented stuff, etc. Um But I think they'd also gone through a tough time under a different engineering leadership, that the trust and the buy-in had been lost a little bit about how it was run before. And so then it's even harder, right? Yeah. So there was some extra context, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Right. I mean, when you lose the trust in the buy-in, um, trust and buy is fundamental for any transformation, right? I I just I just I see this very often, Marile, because you know, people are inherently creatures of habit, right? And and most people are not wired like you and I, that they can make these kind of changes. You and I are different animals, like, you know, all the languages and the moving around and the startups and all the crazy things that we do, most people are not wired that way. Uh, and so I'm always asking myself the question on, you know, what's the right balance between making people redundant for the sake of speed versus investing time to help them get over their fears, shift their perspectives, and not lose all the institutional value that they can bring. All right. It's a it's it's to some extent it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

And I think it's a very fair point, but it's also like if you join a scale-up company, right? We're not even a hundred people in this time and age. Yeah, you need to have, and so it's not it's not good or bad, right? But you and I are in this space and we do all these different things because we thrive on that. And you that's kind of so we've then got an amazing recruiter, and she knows how to sniff out like whether they're fit or not, what regardless of the department, because you need to thrive on that newness, you know, challenges. If there's a wall in front of you, you're gonna go over it or around it or under it or through it, you're gonna find a way, right? And yeah, and and change needs to be something that excites you rather than that it kind of demotivates or scares you. And so I do think that uh uh the choice of what kind of organization you work in uh sits, you know, with your mentality and your mindset and where you thrive. And and like some of the other engineers would probably thrive in a different environment where some of the current ones would hate it, right? So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah. I mean, look, it's uh as we wind down now, because I'm also conscious of time, uh, you know, you you you have chosen very recently, 24 hours ago, publicly to step down, right? To to embrace a new challenge. Um, you know, you're handing the company off at one at probably, you know, it's its strongest point, right? You guys have strong retention, new customers. I think last time we talked to you talking about something like 100 million conversations processed a year or something. Um, you know, a lot of leaders sometimes struggle to leave at the top, right? They kind of linger on. Um, what made this the right moment for you to decide to step down and take a jump in a different direction?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Obviously, that's not an overnight decision, right? It's something I've been covering for a few months. Yeah. Um and uh started also with a conversation with the founders. And um I feel that it's in a really good space now. I feel that it's very much about executing and iterating and that the big transformation and the tougher strategic bits are kind of done. Um and uh, you know, I kind of thrive on, like I said, stuff going upside down and transformation. So the company I'm going to is actually a company that's been around for a long time, but it's sitting in a very particular niche, and it has to do with visualization and prompting through Interest. Visualization is very, very tough if you want to keep fidelity of, you know, and so that really excites me again because it's kind of a next frontier that hasn't been figured out, where this part is maybe more so commoditizing, becomes a normal business execution challenges and you know differentiation, etc. Um, and and leaving the team is is was is a hard one, right? Because uh there's amazing people on the team and I love working with them. Uh and so the people side is a is maybe even tougher than you know stepping away from the business side. But um at some point also I feel that that I I uh do does it does the team still need me? Probably no. It needed me desperately, I think, when I started, and now I feel that it's ready for for a next growth phase and they can handle it themselves. So actually, one of the founders is taking back the CEO seat. He also said, you know, throughout these years I've learned so much about what it means to be CEO, and he's very much a product-driven person. So that innovation part is is definitely well secured with him. And then uh yeah, then it also felt like um it's it's good for me to now sing my teeth into something else. That's also going to be a big transformation and a whole new figuring out what is the almost reimagining again, right? So that's what I say with AI. It's about reimagining, it's not building the next version of what you know, it's completely reimagining what it could be. Right. Given all this new stuff that's around us, and it's going so crazy fast that it's uh the reimagining is you you can do the most amazing. I keep calling it um a concept car, right? You know, these departments they dream of a concept car, it's never what you're actually going to build, but just imagining what it could be, right? They this whole notion of drive cars driving themselves, everyone's like, oh yeah, crazy. But I mean, literally, their claps are in the streets now, you know?

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Yeah, I know it's exciting. It's and I'm obviously I'm super curious to hear where you're you're going next. I'm sure in the next couple of weeks you'll tell me. But uh before we we wrap up on the show, we we generally have um what we call the lightning round of questions, three very short questions with very short answers, then we'll we'll wind down. So our uh our first lightning round question for you is if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 57:52

It's a hard one. You know, I know it's a question that everyone asks, and even in an icebreaker, uh so this is not a lightning round. I I don't think I need a superpower. Can that be the answer?

SPEAKER_00 58:02

It can be. The superpower is not having one. I mean, it's the most unusual answer I've gotten so far, but you know, it's uh there's no right or wrong answer. If you have dinner with anyone in history, alive or dead, who would you choose?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

I like Oprah Winfrey.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

She is I think she's very inspiring and amazing how she's worked her way also as a woman, right? In a in a time and with from a difficult background. And I think she's super uh inspirational. Yeah, I'd love to meet her.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Absolutely. An African-American woman on top of it. So uh she's natural challenges. And last but not least, if you could give one piece of advice to a young woman starting her career, what would you tell her?

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Don't hold back, right? I think uh women are so good at making excuses or apologies or trying to please. Um, I think this that that's uh uh a mindset that you can, you know, you don't always have to be nice and you don't always have to be liked. So uh and and rather regret what you've chosen than regret what you didn't do.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Really, this has been an awesome conversation. I I've really enjoyed catching up with you. I want to wish you the best on the next adventure that you're embarking on. I'm super curious and excited for you, and super curious to know where you're going and what you're gonna be doing. It's been a very interesting conversation, and I think uh, you know, one of the things I take away from from you and your career is you know, you're one of these people that, you know, you blaze your own path. If you know you're very authentic, very direct, very say it as it is. You know, you you make the choices which many people would not make, but you stay true to yourself in that process. And and for that, I think you you know you deserve a lot of credit and you're a role model for for many other leaders and and women out there. So uh want to wish you the very best. We'll keep in touch. Um, you know, excited to know where you land.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

I'll let you know definitely.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

For sure, for sure, for sure. And uh, and folks, for any of you listening, you know, if you took something out of this episode, leave us a comment, leave us a like, make sure to subscribe to the channel. If you think that this could be helpful, you know, any any other people out there, you know, particularly uh young women who are starting their career, maybe, or people who are at a fork in the road, like Marilee has been many times and need to make a hard decision. Um, this could be an episode that really helps them. So until then, um, we will see you in the next episode. This has been another episode of Mork Unfiltered. Thank you so much and signing off.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Thank you.