Episode 13 - Alex Zane - Philosopher

In this episode, we talk with philosopher and scholar Alex Zane. The current state of the world seems precarious. For many of us, life can often feel more like an exhausting exercise in survival than a journey promising love, joy, and fulfillment. Drawing from his deep well of philosophical, historical, and spiritual knowledge and understanding, Alex shares valuable insights that offer a sense of hope, as well as a potential road map toward positive social and political change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Alexander Aquarius Zane. Matthew, the maestro. What a what a beautiful name. What an amazing name. I mean, to be honest. I thank my parents for it. Um, can you tell me like the the the especially the middle part, the Aquarius, your middle name Aquarius? Like, do what do you know about the background of your name or uh why it was chosen for you or who chose it?

The Age of Aquarius...

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Well, you know, I was born uh at the turn of the 70s to the 80s. Uh and in those days, people were really uh a lot of a lot of folks were talking about the age of Aquarius, which is supposed to be a um major change in human society. That's supposed to be a more harmonious time, a more humane time. There is a song that uh a lot of people sung and danced to uh by a band called what is it, the Fifth Dimension. Yeah, it's a really rockin video to go along with it, and it looks quite quite 70s. But yeah, this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius, harmony and understanding, you know, uh uh yeah, and then there's a really awesome part where the roof blows off at the at the end where they're they're saying, Let the sun shine in. Let the sun shine in.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

And and and then in the video, do they kind of put throw their arms toward the heavens and shines out?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, at that point they're like on a platform that's just kind of floating through outer space. Uh you know, the with a billion suns lights shining.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Are they in are they dressed? Do you remember the video very well? Are they dressed uh in any particular way? Like, are they dressed like celestial star children? They precisely are. Okay, yeah. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Your psychic capacities are in top form today, Matt. Well, you know, I mean, high praise. Uh thank you. So this is something it's related to something called the procession of the equinoxes, uh, which has to do with actually the way that the skies change uh over the over long periods. They would talk about that we are uh previously in the age of, or maybe currently in the age of the of Pisces, which is supposed to be the age of Jesus, uh, and whatever Pisces uh represents. Uh but at any rate, it's supposed to be kind of a large-scale change in human consciousness. Yeah. A lot of us are still waiting for that to happen.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Seems like a lot of pressure uh taking on that name. Ah, I'm just uh a banner bearer. You're a banner bearer, it's quite a banner. And it it's uh and and and also, I mean, you know, and we'll we'll get into this a little bit

Introduction to Alex Zane

SPEAKER_00 2:56

more, but you know, you have become and and are a man who uh is really attuned to uh economics, societal, political trends and changes, is interested in these things, pays attention to these things. It's part of the reason you're here is to to edify us and to show to to to just like share some of your knowledge. And uh I want to give just a brief introduction to who Alex is. Alex, I've known him for about 11 years now. Uh we've been in the background of one another's lives. Uh he's my brother-in-law. Uh but he th uh I'm honored. Uh he's got uh a wide breadth of knowledge and experience to share um in many fields, but but definitely like if I think I mean, obviously when I think of Alex, I think of much more than that. I think of a uh you know, a great brother to my wife. I think of a great brother-in-law, I think of a uh someone who uh cares about his family and his friends deeply and and is and wants to be there for them and and um uh and all of those things. But I also really do think about him as a scholar. I think of you as a scholar.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Well, that's that's so that's really, really so uh abundantly kind of you to say all uh um all that, Matt, and and characteristically kind and considerate. And yeah, it's such an honor to be uh here on this uh podcast. That's uh a really cool uh thing that you and Conan have been doing. And shout out to Cotton. Yeah, shout out. Yeah, I I I I salute this uh this up and coming uh intervention in the world of culture. Uh get some of the the good stuff out there.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Uh thank you, thank you. Uh so so um as I said, I've known you for about 11 years now. Now, the the the first time uh that I met you was in Washington, D.C. Uh uh we were it was with me, Zashi, and yourself, and we met up in Washington, D.C. and did some daytime some sightseeing. And and uh what I remember one thing I remember was uh something about you reminded me a little bit of David Foster Wallace. You had long hair, but you were wearing a button-down shirt with a tie. Um you know, because I was wearing uh my typical uniform of a t-shirt and jeans.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

I like I like to dress up. I think it's a it's one way of honoring the world, honoring my company. Um, I've got certainly have uh a mix of feelings about what goes on in the spooky town of the District of Columbia. But you know, if anybody wants if any, you know, uh campaign managers want to spot me and look at that guy and say, Oh, that's a future senator right there. You know, maybe best for me to have a tie on. But I was again, I was meeting you and I was meeting your family. You know, I definitely gotta look my my best.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Like, do you see yourself still wanting to because you are, and we'll get into a little more in a in a in a in a minute, but like you've been involved in some different protests, you've been involved in some some uh social causes and and and involved in the community. There's a negative view of politicians, um, especially today. And so it's like, do you see yourself as one of wanting to be one of them, as wanting to be uh uh among not one of them in the way that that we don't like about

Washington D.C. and its Politicos

SPEAKER_00 6:13

them, but do you see yourself with political ambitions or uh today?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I I feel like what those those when uh they interview you know a governor or something, you know, five years before a presidential election, say, hey, what are you thinking about? And they're wow, I'm just trying to do my job. Of course not. I'm a man of the people. I I I carry cement. I it I it seems like that would be a very formidable uh job to I do think that there are honorable uh politicos uh and and office holders. Um uh but I I think even the ones that come to mind, you know, they'll often have to make uh compromises on things that they had originally uh committed themselves to um uh or just the the context they're in. I mean, I think that there's a lot of there's obvious, I mean everybody knows that there's a lot of messed up things about the way that the political system works and it doesn't end up uh representing the people very uh faithfully um uh far from it. Uh recent um uh attack on uh Venezuela is a great example. Uh uh majority of people in the United States are against it, but apparently that doesn't matter. Majority of people want universal healthcare in the country, but um the decision makers don't uh let that happen. So I I mean, yeah, I'm of multiple minds of um on what my particular place is supposed to be in all of that. Uh I do see my natural place as being among those who are dispossessed and shut out of the system and kind of rallying with them to uh uh make our voice heard. Um and, you know, I practically I wonder whether you need to have your foot in the door or to be inside the building when decisions are made uh in order to optimize the uh outcome for um you know all the people we care about.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Uh there's a moral uh motivation to be involved in it, uh, or a a feeling of moral obligation or or or uh but there's also a hesitation of like the uh from a personal standpoint of oh my god, I don't know if that's the life I want.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah, and authenticity matters to me very much. Um you know, I have a uh uh academic background in philosophy, and uh there's a few different schools of philosophy that I am particularly inclined towards, but among them an early imprint was the existentialists, and they care very much about this category of authenticity, whereby your your identity is characterized more by what you do and what your how you experience your experiences, uh than by whatever kind of external pressures, ext and external influences are label you or or shape you, that if there is some kind of core of authenticity, then it's it's supposed to come from the dynamic forces from within in interplay with the outside. But at any rate, when that when I then I think about you know a life in politics, uh it surely does seem that authenticity is not uh not the most common of qualities possessed by the people that are in the It would seem. Uh and I would I would I would really bristle at that. I would, you know, I think that the the kind of uh physiological or spiritual feeling that I that I have when I think about a life like that is that I would feel hollowed out. Um you know, and and all of the things that you would do in a in a in a on a day-to-day basis, that that would bother me. I want uh, you know, I always want to be attuned to what my core uh is up to. I do think that there are people that hold the line and uh insist on on uh on integrity. And so there, you know, there is a there is a way to do it, but it's kind of like a you know against all odds. Can you think of an individual that you feel does it pretty well? Uh Burndog does it great. Everybody's like one of those. Bernie Sanders uh well respected across all political stripes. Uh you know, I object to a bunch of the things he does too, um, where I feel like he's making compromises because of where of the position that he's in. Uh, but uh obviously he has yeah, he's been widely influential on a on a new generation of uh people who want to hold to their integrity and want to be uh committed to the interests of the many against the the few that that hoard their power and wealth. Uh and that's um uh yeah, I mean it's there's been a lot of beautiful and exciting developments that have happened as a result of him and the and the and the crew that that work alongside him. You know, but his point over and over again is that it's not about him, it's about all of us.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Uh and um which some wouldn't could also cynically interpret as a very political thing to say, but in the in the context that it it seems genuine.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, but I mean I think that there's a difference between uh uh a dude that says that and then consolidates as much power for power for himself and his buddies as possible, and the one who whose whole platform is about the distribution of power.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Aaron Powell I mean what you said back there about authenticity, it's really it's what what do you back up with actions? I mean, it makes me think, and you know, it sounds like something that the headmaster at my high school said that uh always just kind of stuck with me in the back of my mind, uh still does, which is he he said, character is what you do when no one's watching. You know, there's probably a lot of people who go into politics who end up who who start off with the right intentions, who then either through self-deceit or through whatever corruption, uh you know, or m maybe maybe some kind of megalomania sets in just because of the amount of attention. I don't know,

Why did Bernie Sanders lose?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

but it could change people. What why did Bernie lose? Like what why couldn't Bernie win? It it seemed like there was such a grassroots following and people loved him. I feel like the course of things could have been altered if he had won, possibly.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah. Well, you know, he's he's not a Democrat. He's an independent, and he ran as a in the Democratic primary in tw 2015 and 2016. And um there were plenty of people, uh, power brokers in the Democratic Party that were uh upset by uh how much he was upsetting uh the the usual calculus of um of things. He was running uphill and his and his supporters uh you know had their work cut out for them that year. Much more media was given to Hillary and frankly to uh to to Trump. There was a uh a leak or disclosure of an email from the Democratic side that they actually preferred Trump as a as an opponent in that year because they thought that meant that they would win it handily. You know, all of the state primaries and caucuses, uh, they're r run by uh people that have been dedicated to the party for uh a long time. And um if you're kind of trying to run an insurgent uh campaign, you will yeah, you will have you'll have roadblocks. But I ca I also I don't totally like this the story both in 2016 and 2020, that it's just the party to blame um or to to explain it. I mean, obviously I think the the media has a bunch of responsibility, but also I, you know, I am committed to, I guess this is a Jeffersonian belief that the power rests with the consent of the governed, that it's actually up to all of us. So I do think that if there was a greater commitment on the part of the people that wanted to see change in 2016 uh or in 2020, I think they those could have been overcome. I mean, one of the weird things about the you know, self-proclaimed citadel of democracy, the United States, is that we actually have rather low voter turnout uh

Voter participation, and the Poor People's Campaign

SPEAKER_01 14:31

in our elections. If you can inform, if you can show the roadmap of how being called into the democratic process will actually get the goods and get people the benefits that they that they need, I think uh we could have a lot more people that are involved in the uh the the process, and that can flood out the institutional impediments. This is part of what the political strategy of the poor people's campaign, uh with which I've uh worked for uh the last several years. Uh that's their idea. Is that Kairos? The Kairos, the Kairos Center is, is, is one of the organizations that fosters the campaign. Um there's also the repair repairers of the breach. Uh, and then there's many dozens and maybe hundreds of organizations that are kind of part of the whole umbrella. It's a it's a coalition, is what it's you know supposed to be. And I think that's you know, any any real political success is going to be on account of not like a particular you know, one little group that's making something happen, but a coalition of of many. And yeah, their kind of basic political point is the poorest in the country for many reasons, uh, are they vote the least uh and they're the least plugged into the political process, even though if you pull them, they're the ones that are the most approving of things like universal healthcare.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Probably too worried about trying to survive and live their lives to be as tuned into political dialogue and so forth. I don't know. Like, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

I think you're I think you're quite right about that. I think also that we're an overworked country if you compare us to a lot of other uh countries. The you know, I think what is it like the average working week in Germany is something like 30 hours. Yeah. Um OCS does here. Yeah, and in many civilized countries, uh the uh the voting day is a holiday. Uh so it's you know it's made to be easy and uh uh for for people to to have their voice heard. I mean, all those countries have their own problems too, and you know, I'm not not not gonna commend everything that go that goes on there, but if we're just talking about democracy as a thing we care about and a thing that we're proud of as Americans, I mean it's the first thing that or if people talk about freedom, they talk about democracy. These are the supposed to be the things that America is all about. But I see a lot of unfree people, uh, people that don't have time to pursue the real thing, the things that they really care about because they're just trying to put food on the table and take care of their kids and things like that. But anyway, part of the the uh goal of the poor people's campaign, which was initiated originally uh by uh by Martin Luther King and uh and his cohort, uh I mean the kind of concept of it was dreamed up by the activist and lawyer Marion Wright Edelman, who suggested to uh King that that this kind of uh wedding of racial interracial justice uh and uh economic justice would be all the more faithful to what uh King had been trying to do and and what the Civil Rights Movement had been had been trying to do up to that point. Um and also a way of distributing the power of the movement more horizontally. I mean, I think one of the limitations from the uh civil rights movement in kind of retrospect is that it could be kind of top-heavy. So that, you know, if if he was taken from us, if King when when King was taken from us, uh, you know, strike the shepherd and the sheep are scattered, which I think was the was the was the point of all the adversity against him and and other other leaders like like Malcolm X. What happened though was that in response to that was the Poor People's Campaign's uh effort to set up a tent city in Washington, DC in the summer of 68, a few months after um he was killed, demanding uh economic justice. And um and it was a you know, it was a motley crew of all of all kinds uh who came from all over the country, you know, kind of an original occupy to make it clear to all the decision makers um around there and and and for the nation that was watching, that this movement lives and our our needs are still as urgent as as ever. It was, of course, violently suppressed uh as as these movements often are, and uh it was revived uh about eight or ten years ago by by folks who said, hey, this is this is all all the more urgent. Now, yeah, the goal is that if you get if you get people, if you get the poor and workers and their and their allies to uh to get all the more involved, you can change the landscape of the political system. And you know, elections are not the whole political process. Um talking with one another is part of the political process, uh, sorting out the values that matter to you are, organizing with your local community are uh, but um, you know, if even even just this kind of minimum thing of if we could get people more plugged in on those on those election days, there there would be a world of difference. It's just a it's a it's a cool strategy that they're 100%.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I like that you know, and it's also hopeful. It it gives you a a reason to to to get up in the morning. You feel like you have some agency, you have some power, you know, get your community involved. There's something you can do. You're not completely helpless. So I like that message there.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

I precisely it's the I think it's the empowerment part of that that I think is could be liberating to those of us who do have eyes to see all of the institutional impediments. Uh, but I I feel like at the end of the day, the most empowering narrative is if we engage more and engage more intentionally uh and more thoughtfully, uh, and even, you know, use some uh some new ways and new perspectives on things, uh amazing things can happen.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, I and I agree. I'm not a conspiratorial thinker. Some people are,

Social media, and other impediments to positive change

SPEAKER_00 20:53

we could talk about that, but I I You know, because the biggest enemy to that positive sentiment of hope that you just expressed is a kind of apathy or disconnection or cynicism. You know, you you look at social media, you look at the way it seems to s sort of fracture people, even though the original message of it was to bring people together on Facebook or whatever and to give them a way to stay in touch. Ooh, and I'll get emails that say, It's Joe Schmoe's birthday. Uh and I'm like, I don't even remember this guy. I went to I was in first grade with Joe. And then you you gotta turn off those notifications. Um but it's there's so much noise today, and there's it's I mean, it's constant, and people live on their phones. And I've talked with Kern about this on the show before, but it seems to place people on these narrow little pipelines in that algorithm. And sometimes it can be hard to reach people with a p uh uh with with something that you need them to get involved in or to to see another perspective uh about. Have you ever almost felt like, man, some of these huge forces that seem like distractions, are these like Planned in some way? Like is are there is there any kind of design but to sort of turn the s society into these kind of meek cows who are just so concerned with trying to survive that they can't worry about who the next politician is?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Uh well, I think that's an excellent question. And I think that conspiracy is a reality. Uh I think probably most all things that we can think of as changes or big decisions that were made in our history were made by a few people in a room. Um I believe that class power, the power of the of the the wealthy and well-connected, is often propagated in conspiratorial ways. There are things that we that we don't see, uh and that has to end up getting revealed in inquiries and leaks and disclosures. Um uh, but uh I'm more interested in the conspiracies of the many. Um the word conspiracy, you know, it's like uh spira, like spirit or inspire, it's or respirate, it's uh to breathe together, conspiracy. Uh and uh we do that. And when we especially when we're engaged in projects together, or say a podcast, uh, there's a little bit of a conspiratorial element in that as well. I'm totally with you that there are, or I mean, I I'm I think it's a totally relevant question to what extent our our our media environment and our daily media diets are shaped, crafted precisely to disempower or to atomize or to garble the signal, you know, in a din of noise. My mind starts to think, okay, so actually these days there is a a discipline of spirit uh that is called for, you know, a way of being more intentional, uh of noticing where your attention goes and catching it if you can. I mean, there's many, many reasons for uh cultivating uh spiritual and psychological practices, uh, but I think the uh the media madness uh and the and the platforms are uh uh among the top reasons. Um and I think uh, you know, necessarily connected with all of the things that we've been talking about on a more kind of social scale. And I think that movements can go wrong if they are missing a you can call it spiritual or ethical or personal, you know, intimate element for people. This is one of the reasons why I thought that if I was going to be uh a contributor to, you know, moving us into a a better age, that uh going to divinity school um would be uh would be helpful to the to those ends where um you know we study these uh ancient religious traditions and particularly uh the Christian tradition was was uh uh where I was at, where they um spent the most time talking about. But you know, doing a lot of study of the Bible, doing a study of Christian ethics, uh old and new, of meditative and contemplative practices, of movements that have happened and how they how they go have gone wrong, about how uh leadership is cultivated. Yeah, and how you how you keep your wits about you and how you let the love flow while you're trying to change the world. In the in the Occupy Wall Street movement, one of the really beautiful things that I that I saw is the uh idea of the human mic, where because uh amplification was uh made illegal first in Zuccotti Park in New York City and then in a lot of the other encampments, uh, the adaptation that the uh assemblies would make is okay, well, for each speaker that talks, we're just gonna um have the comrades of the crowd serve as the amplification so that the one the comrades in the back can hear. And so you go sentence by sentence, everybody echoes what you're saying, and you know, they might not agree or agree with what they're saying, but then you know, their turn is gonna come up next, and then everybody's gonna uh say that. And it's a way of like uh keeping people um on a on a on a on a wavelength together that they also have a a way of shaping together, and so there was a cool dynamic of uh collectivity and individuality, both of which are are supreme principles for me. One of the things that I saw that was a sad thing uh is that people could really go at each other uh in arguments and there could be lots of um uh hostility? Hostility and and uh they could be really angry at the adversary, and then you know, they could turn their comrade into an adversary on account of that because they weren't uh paying enough attention to what their own emotional reactions were and where what the real origin of them was. And so if the adversary is an obstacle and but right now I'm frustrated with the way my uh my comrades talking, then um, you know, then they're an obstacle. Yeah. Uh and if we're trying to create a a world with more just institutions and and laws and policies, we surely cannot overlook the personal element of how we're going to constitute that new world. This is also what draws me so much to the the work of uh of King and and and others like him who saw it as a spiritual uh labor. We're trying to create a community where our deepest nature, which is our love, gets to flow freely and uh gets to set the tone of how we relate with one another, um, so that we are led by our love and so that the the goal is a is a is a

What's the road map to change?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

world where where love reigns, which I think if you talk with anybody one-on-one, at the end of the day, it's what people want. They want to experience love and they want to be able to love.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Sure. In theory, we all want uh peace, we all want us uh uh love, and we all want to be loved and we want to feel loved so that we can give love and we it definitely that's a universal need and desire for sure. What would you say to a skeptic who might look at that and say, okay, one, I'm not hearing a concrete plan, or I'm hearing a goal, but I want to know a plan. And then two, if the current system we're employing is not resulting in the goal we want, would abolishing it or destroying it or like replacing it with a different system, which is still run by flawed humans, uh yeah, how do we know that wouldn't uh end us up back in some other conundrum that could be even worse or that could be, you know, problematic. You know, so what would you say to someone who might have these concerns?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, really, really crucial questions, and I'm glad you asked them. The uh on the first uh question of kind of you know the roadmap or the how do you get from here to there, I think it's so important, and I think it's actually what's really often missing in organizing and in political activity. I think that uh you owe it to the people that you are trying to encourage to engage to tell them how the how it how it will work, what's the plan. Um, and you know, whether that's like the poor people's campaign says, hey, if we pull in more people into elections that are impacted by these policies, we will be able to shape those policies better and it'll work better. I think, you know, they they they have a lucid uh battle plan on how to shape elections, but you know, but elections are just one of the parts of the of the field. And we, you know, people are not paid well enough. Uh we've known that wages have generally flatlined relative to inflation uh for the last 40 years for the most for most American workers, uh, while the wealthiest, it just keeps continues to uh ascend. And and that's not uh uh that's not equitable, that's not freedom, um, that's bondage. And um uh how do you resist that? Well, labor struggles are immensely important, and collective power is more powerful than individual power. And uh when there's greater union membership in the United States, like there has been in previous decades, uh, there are better goods that workers secure and not just unions, because unions can be really cool and helpful, and sometimes they can also uh get in the way because there can be, you know, l leadership that is buddy buddy with the wrong uh folks, uh and that might be more allied to uh industri, you know, the the the company's interests or or political power brokers' interests than those of the rank and file. Um uh but there have been some refreshing developments in that in the in the la in the last few years, uh and uh you know, whether it's auto workers or teachers or nurses um who uh are kind of uh uh upsetting the um uh the dynamic there after after after too long. And I think that for instance, a tactic like a strike or a general strike gets the goods it has before. Uh many of the workers' protections and and benefits were secured precisely because of uh on account of industrial action like this. Uh and we kind of got cowed, partly on account of the Taft Hartley Act and and cultural problems and all the propaganda that was against the uh socialist revolutions that happened in the in the earlier uh part of the uh of the 20th. There, yeah, a lot of the wind got kind of uh knocked out of the labor movement, but um it's still kicking, but that is another place where you can you can point to a roadmap of how you get from here to there. The more of that, the better. If you're at a protest, bring pamphlets that that show this is what we're doing and this is uh this is how we're gonna try to get it. Problem is with this kind of thing, uh, and this was another kind of rude awakening as I got involved in politics, is there's also security culture. You kind of have to not show all of your cards to the powers that be, uh because that empowers them to direct their resources to whatever they um want in order to obstruct you. But I am because of my predisposition to favor and uh and weight the power of the people and the many, the benefits outweigh the costs uh and the risks of just mass informing uh um uh comrades of what we're up to together and what our what our roadmap is uh together. So that's just that part of the of the question. And um I don't I don't know all you know all the answers, but I also think uh I mean I definitely don't know all the answers of of the of the means that we take to get to the to the ends. Uh but I also think that a lot of them are on the table and they are there. It just kind of gets lost in the din of reacting to whatever nonsense uh the administration or various powerful people are doing from day to day. So we're often on the back foot rather than setting the agenda for the day, which is what I think we should be doing, and that has many advantages, uh, or or the disharmony of many comrades who believe similarly and are committed to similar values, but will be arguing with each other about means, about um, you know, end goals, instead of the things that they could do that could tangibly uh change the scene uh and hash out things that they need to when the when the day comes. Uh so okay, that part of that that part of the question. But uh, you know, I I leave that as an open question to all people that want to change is let's think more tangibly, materially. You're trying to look at the play of forces, the distribution of resources, and and analyze kind of beyond just the level of ideas, how things change from this to that. But the more concrete that we can be in that way, uh I feel like the more effective we will be and the more the more people will be encouraged to join up. I think a big explanation for why people don't join these is because they don't know how this gets what what they want. Even if they're committed to those values, they don't know what the plan is. And you and and you will get more people involved if they know what the plan is. So that's just one one thought. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Uh, second thing about you know what happens if we win. Um, well, um my you know, my f my first impulse to say is just like the vast majority of human history, power has been consolidated in the hands of the few. David Graeber and uh and Wingro have a great uh book on this. Um uh Dawn of Humanity, I believe, where like in ancestral ancient times, be you know, earlier than empires, there were a lot of different ways that things were actually run a lot more horizontally uh in human societies. But we don't give enough of a chance to what happens when power is more widely distributed uh among people. And by the way, and that's um uh for me, I'm more interested in power being broadly distributed than resources. I mean, I want resources to be broadly distributed, uh, it's all of our planet. Um uh, but I think the way that we get there is by uh a broader distribution of political power over the the distribution of resources. This is the way that I think of the term political economy. Um, and so it's not, you know, we're not just trying to uh get the goods, we're trying to give people the power over uh over that, uh, or we're trying to take the power uh over that together. Um we know how bad things are when few people control things. We know that uh the labor and blood and sweat of people's lives, you know, the value of all of that gets channeled into coffers uh that do things like uh terrorize the planet and many peoples in it, colonize places, strip places of and land of wealth, um, and engage in all kinds of cruelty, uh suppression. So it, you know, if I When it's unchecked, you get to that. Well, yeah, and it it's it is unchecked, you know, in for all practical purposes, until the the the many uh take action to take their power back, the power that is rightfully theirs. Um yeah, so I kind I would kind of like currently point to the massive terror, cruelty, uh deprivation, uh dispossession that happens in the name of uh whatever political system you want to call it, whereby that power is concentrated among a very few. Uh and so I I think just it makes sense that if more, if you have more stakeholders involved in a decision, it's gonna be a better decision. It's gonna be more subtle, it'll be more attuned to the needs of the uh and the exigencies of the of the the circumstances of what people are dealing with. Um and if it's not, if you're if you're having decisions that are made in a in a faraway, removed place uh that then affect those uh those conditions on the ground, they're it's gonna be not as good decisions. It just makes sense as a matter of like intellectual uh of intelligence gathering that if we're drawing from the intelligence of everyone, we're gonna have a uh a more fitting uh uh policy. Uh that's another kind of just it's kind of a a principle that I would draw from in answering the second question of, you know, what happens if we win?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

And ultimately you're you're looking forward. Uh, you know, we can look to the past for examples of what to do or what not to do and and learn from it, but you're ultimately looking forward. Is there any example from today or prior in history uh that you would point to and say, I really like what they're doing. Let's really emulate uh that uh that that you would

Systems and initiatives currently contributing to positive change

SPEAKER_00 39:06

favor over like whatever the Soviet Union was doing.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

I think anywhere we're gonna we're gonna see things that we don't wanna that we'd rather not see. I mean, either so I could point to a bunch of awesome things that have happened in the Scandinavian social democracy experiments um that also have problems. I mean, Norway, I I mean, I don't know if I would chalk them up to that intervention, to that, to the attempt to distribute power more broadly. Yeah. Uh, but for instance, Norway, you know, a lot of the its wealth is uh from extractive uh uh resources that it that it has. So you can bankroll some of these projects by um basically, you know, robbing from the future, robbing from the the land, or contributing to cataclysmic uh planetary changes. Um and so, you know, I'm not gonna take them and say if we do everything the way they did, then it'll be good. But I, you know, like I've already listed, um you see a bunch of things that can happen if people take the power. And probably where that it went wrong is where people let go of that uh power and ceded it to power consolidators. Um the more that people continue to claim the the more that the many continue to claim their power over the shaping of their society, the the better that that that that will be. And um I mean there are successes in the United States of what happens when when more people are involved and uh and positive pro-social changes are happening, like we you know, like came up before, um a lot of the uh labor protections, environmental protections and rights were ones that we struggled for and won, uh, and we're a better country because we did that. I think it it it might be most helpful to look at particular initiatives that that people have taken together that have brought whatever place they're in in a better direction. Um rather than the you know, the petri dish, whether corrupted or not, um, of any given uh uh polities experiment. Because, you know, any anyone that I name, I could I could name a bunch of a bunch of uh problems with it. I think systemically the problems will generally result in some kind of retrograde falling back on the inertia or convenience or greed or whatever of power consolidation rather than power distribution. The more that you see that generally the worse outcomes will be for people is um is kind of my my my theoretical and practical commitment. The more that we can hold the line and advance the line of massive distribution of power, the more that our world will be looking better.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Beautiful. Um I I uh I definitely did not fulfill uh the goal of of starting from the beginning of uh of of Alex as a whole person. What I really want the most is to let you express yourself and to and to get an idea of of your views, and we're doing that. So it's it's awesome. Um if there's things that you wanted to hit, feel free to, you know. No, I wanted to hit all of these things. It's just funny

The genesis of Alex Zane... From humble beginnings to scholarly pursuits.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

uh because we hit them immediately. But I think that's but to sort of get get a sense of the genesis of of of Alexander Zane, where where where were you born? Take it away back.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Uh I was uh born on the on the beautiful island of Oahu.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Wow. That's amazing. Born in Hawaii, do you have memories of it? Is it something that means one way or another to you?

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Well, uh, you know, I I grew up very poor, and uh I have and and in and uh and in my adult life I have not yet availed myself of making a pilgrimage back there. But I only spent a few months there when I was after I was born. Um and uh so yeah, I don't it's only it's only a sever. I guess there were some months uh before that in your station. Uh but uh yeah, so where whatever my connection with it, it's very arcane and deep. I look forward to the to the reunion with the with with with that land. Um I anytime I'm on an island, I uh I do feel a little a a little bit um little closed in.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Oh at a home. Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay. Wow. So you so maybe that is that arcane connection you carried with you. You're on an island and you it it takes you back. Were you home? Schooled at one time?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Maybe my kindergarten year. I didn't I did not go to kindergarten. And I do recall my father teaching me the alphabet and how to write um in uh before I before I started going to school. And I don't know if he they would have even been calling it that. I think they were just, you know, not sure whether the uh whatever kind of education you know I'd be getting would be uh the quality that they want. Valid concern.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Uh what age did you first take an interest in, I don't know, like school? Because like you did really well in school and and and you have attended some some honorable, some, some admirable, prestigious universities. What uh age do you do you know, like was it immediate? Was it like were you always were you actively interested in school from the beginning of school?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I don't totally remember the the beginning, but I surely had many, many gratifying experiences in school. Um uh I was you know, my mom did a great job of of looking for public schools that uh we could go to that were um that were good quality. Um and I often would have an affinity with teachers. I would be accused of being a teacher's pet at times, but I I hoped, you know, I hoped that I was also I got that once or twice one of the one of the comrades of the of the uh among the among the class. Um yeah, I don't know. Um I don't I mean I it's I I I haven't thought about that uh well I mean I think probably these days I think of myself as a student of life uh and a lifelong student. Um, you know, I like to go to talks and uh and and listen to um uh scholars and and thinkers. You have an intellectually curious mind. Yes, yes, I do, I do. I also am concerned that sometimes intellect can be a hiding place and a way to uh alienate one from one's heart, one's relations uh with people. Um so you know, I feel you know, we're whole beings. Uh so I want to be able to integrate whatever intellectual side

Competition in the school system

SPEAKER_01 46:27

I have with with my others as well. And sometimes I'm not the not the greatest at that.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Um then there's also an certain element of like you have a reason to be, you know, proud of those things too. I mean, like, there's people on all sides of the spectrum of education, you know, there's people who, you know, didn't go to college at all. There's people who went to community colleges, there's but it's like I went to a preppy high school, and there were a couple of kids from my school who went to like Harvard, I think Princeton. There weren't many. And my high school, there were, you know, there were a lot of smart kids there, but it was like even from that like sample population, there weren't like everyone wanted to go to Ivy League schools, right? And I think I did too, you know. Like, and I think my dad wanted me to. Like, I think my dad wanted me to be able to get into Harvard or something, you know. Towards the end of high school, I lost interest in school to a large extent. I lost interest in proving that anymore. And I was like, school has nothing to do with my life goals of wanting to be a movie director or whatever I wanted to be at that time. I think it was a film director. Um, or getting straight A's is not gonna get me there. It didn't get Stanley Kubrick there or Steven Spielberg. I think Stanley Kubrick really struggled to even get accepted to any colleges. He had really shitty grades. Maybe he wasn't interested in school. His motivation didn't lead him there down that path of academia. What I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that your interest in school never really like died, or you sort of maintained this um sort of like straight A status. College was harder than high school. Oh, okay, all right. Um not everyone says that.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

So that's like interesting. Um yeah, I don't know. Uh I you know, I have I have mixed feelings about about a number of these things where um I you know if I I A, I feel like getting to go to nice schools was a a um kind of a fluke and a stroke of luck for for me. And I think for many people that get to go there, uh it's often some kind of matter of luck. You know, they have fellow students that are that worked just as hard uh and are just as smart, but they didn't get pulled that year. You know, maybe sometimes the admissions folks have particular things they want to do in their shaping of the admit class. I mean, there were, yeah, there were like there were friends of mine who I felt like deserved to go, you know, ahead of me, uh uh, but didn't. And so I don't, you know, I don't think it's a matter of perfect justice, and nor is uh primary education either, um uh where you know plenty of people will do all the work and read everything and still and and not you know not get all the uh uh appreciation from uh teachers. So I, you know, I mean the thing probably education in general, uh the more that we're doing it for the satisfaction of a job well done, um the better it'll be for us, uh, rather than you know to please a teacher or to please a parent. And that'll actually And the more sustainable problems. Of course, it'll go the distance, I think. And um and that, you know, that counts in our post-schooling lives just as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

So you had a love of learning. I mean, you it sounds like for the most part you liked the learning and mental exploration aspect of school. Is that fair to say? It's kind of a sweeping statement though, because I bet you had favorite subjects and other subjects you didn't like.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

I would say I definitely do now. I it's hard to it's kind of hard to project myself back into the my my mindset in those days. There's been a number of kind of transformations that I've undergone. And um uh, you know, in those days, I it was the heyday of my involvement with uh an evangelical Baptist church. And um, you know, the priority of spiritual humility was very, very important to me. Um it still is, uh um, but maybe yeah, in in different ways. Uh, but that meant that, you know, ever tooting my own horn was not the thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

I I mean Oh, trust me, I understand Christian humility, of course. In that uh as a kid. Of course, right.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

So, so um, I mean, I think there was still I you know, I think there were still uh problems in that department just just as well in the in in those days, but uh kind of it when I project myself back in that time, it's hard for me to think of, yeah, what made it different for me compared to others that that deserve just as well. And there's kind of like a a like a general point that I kinda cohere around on um coalesce around on on this, which is that it shouldn't be such a matter of luck or uh to the extent that it is against the odds, or you gotta, you know, work your tail off to hap uh for it to happen. I I something in me bristles at that that I don't think it's just, and I don't think it rears up new generations of of wise people very well.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

That um well I definitely agree with you that there are elements of injustice to it because it shouldn't be so it shouldn't be so hard, and it shouldn't be such a matter of of of luck.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

And um so I don't you know you could you could take my story and say, look, here's somebody who who you know did what they were supposed to do and was able to get a little bit ahead, not much, a little bit ahead, uh um uh on account of that, and that's you know, that's the American story or whatever. But A, I don't think that I don't think that's a faithful telling of of what it was. Um A, I'm yeah, I think there was a lot of luck involved, and plenty of other people were were working plenty hard. Um, even trying to get ahead in have where you were in this uh in this country, there's so much that works against that. Uh, you know, intergenerational poverty is a thing, and it's uh uh and it has it has effects. Um and I think this is increasingly the case that people that go to college are less likely to be able to do better, you know, than the uh than previous generations had. Social mobility is kind of slowing. Yeah. So I don't know, when when we think about, I mean, my identity as a student, I what's more what more comes presently to mind is I do see myself as always a student. I think all of us are students, the and there's ways to be better students and less, you know, the more we listen and ask questions and draw from broad sources and think critically, uh, those are all you know ongoing um virtues and will continue to reap their their dividends. Um uh and you seem to be more hesitant to give yourself credit than due. I think if there's anything special about me, I see what is special in each person. Uh and I want to be committed to looking about it, looking at it that way. I don't like the idea.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

That's true, but you also did the work. So don't know they didn't. Well, there's a lot of people who didn't. Well, you know what I mean? Like in in school, you made a for whatever reason, and your motivation could have been any of a million r things. And it sounds like we're saying it's a sort of a love of learning or whatever, but it is whatever you say it is. But whatever that motivation was, it drove you to do the work. You didn't have to do the work. You don't have to do the homework. Hey, class tonight, don't go to the club, do this two hours of studying for the test tomorrow, and then the next day I want you to complete that assignment. Now, I'm not saying that you labored for hours and hours over every single assignment. You might have, I don't know, maybe you had such a knack for it that you didn't have to do that, but you did have to do the assignments because if you hadn't done them at all, and by the way, some kids either don't do them at all or do them really half-assed. This and none of I don't disagree with anything you just said. There's so many injustices in the education system, but I'm not I'm not talking about that right now. What I just want to establish that there is credit due to you and that you did the work. You did do the assignments, correct? You didn't have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

I feel like it's pretty low bar. And probably if I talk to those. If I talk to those people that didn't do it, they're probably often be good reasons, and there might be also very adverse- Also some shitty reasons, let's be honest. You know, very adverse circumstances, and they might be uh, you know, a little Kubrick who is, you know, they're going home to work on their on their on their phone.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

I'm not saying that their life won't uh lead them to the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Which is why I don't want to I don't want to lay claim to some virtue that somebody else lacked.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Um But you're not laying claim to it. You you proved it. I mean you did the work. I'm not saying that that that you did the right thing or the wrong thing. And I I'm just saying that the the reward you enjoyed for it, which was going to a school that is prestigious and is hard to get into and that most people don't seem to get into, it may have had to do with luck, but it also had something to do with your passion and your motivation. Um and by the way, again, it doesn't mean you were right or or wrong. It's nothing about that. Uh uh there's so many kids who don't go to a good school and they end up they're geniuses. I don't disagree, just to be clear. I'm not trying to make a claim that you're you know should be viewing yourself as on some other plane from people. I think we're all on the same plane. I think all people bring some really special, intrinsic, unique value to the world. I really do. I don't believe that some people are better than other people. Um I I I I mean, you think of Jeffrey Dahmer, maybe that's a tougher case, but let's not go. I do think that I don't think some people are better than other people. I really do think that each person brings something to this world. Your sister, Zashi, my wife, my God, like what an amazing contribution she makes to the world. Yeah. What what a person of such I have so much admiration for her. Um her integrity, her, her drive, her, her discipline, her work ethic, her, her brave her like, like, like ballsiness, her her bravery in the way she approaches like everything. Yeah, she's not paralyzed by overthinking or indecision or self-doubt the way I am sometimes. Um, I really admire these things. And I and um Zashi didn't go to to Harvard or Stanford. Um, you know, her calling was like in a different direction, right? And I do think every person has a calling. So uh believe me, I'm not making a case that you're on some other plane from people. I'm really not. But I am simply asserting, in my view, some credit is due to you for your passion, which is not a fake, it's a genuine passion, I think, I believe, for learning and for academia and for intellectual pursuits.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

So a few things to say, few things to say that. You know, A, Sasha went to a great school and and has done marvelously in in life, and there's so many ways that I admire her uh uh and you know uh and um wish that I I I had the virtues that she did. Um so uh you know, if I worked really, really hard to get a job managing

The hype around Ivy League schools

SPEAKER_01 58:40

investments for a bunch of wealthy people. I mean, usually I think it probably usually they don't have to work too hard, they might, you know, just get an nepotistic uh, you know, slide into the position and all that. Definitely happens. If I if I worked really hard for something that actually wasn't really socially valuable and then succeeded, you know, I I don't think that objectively would be a great reason to pat myself on the back. Plenty of people would still anyway. I think that a lot of the prestigious institutions in this country, the agendas of education that are there are often actually lacking. I mean, uh I know that a lot of students in another, you know, in a in a in a rival school, uh, when I was when I was going there, that was a uh a public school, uh uh were working way harder in their classes uh than police. A lot of the times once people get in, they actually have to work less hard. It's more about the pedigree. Uh uh, and there's plenty of plenty, there's plenty of so you know, if you if you happened to like do well on some tests and then you got there, but then when you get there, you might not even be getting as good of an education as other folks that didn't. A, you also, there's um uh important uh book called The Miseducation of the American Elite. And it's about how the uh a lot of these IVs, et cetera, are not all they're cracked up to be when it comes actually to the education quality, because really what the agenda is uh is the education of the maintainers of the current system, uh, which is toxic in so many ways. Uh, and that the ones who get ahead are the ones who uh rock the boat the least on that matter. Um and the the the critical education that you would that you might find at other institutions that aren't as as storied uh and as high profile uh is is not as present there. And so it's kind of there's a little bit of an illusion in all of this and um 100%. Uh that that does need to be that I also even think is part of the American ideology about the American dream, about individualism, about uh uh individual success, that there's there's like um there's an there's shadow undercurrents that uh undermine the uh that that kind of story. And I just think in general, we should have a higher quality education across the board in this country. Classes are too big uh in in public schools, teachers are are paid so little. Compared to other countries, teachers are paid so meagerly. They deserve so much. And and that would result in a better educated uh population, also would result in better uh social outcomes like we like we've talked to and political engagement, like we've talked about before. Yeah. If so, if you have success in that kind of environment, in in an environment where all these things are misprioritized and mismisshapen. I mean, the way, you know, compared to the way it could be. Yeah. Um I totally agree. And I'm more in I'm more interested in the story of how my life relates with others than how my life is different from others, which I think is kind of a a subtle but important like adjustment that we can make in life. That we're we're kind of in the American ideology, we're invited to think of how we're different from others. Um and that gets that actually works against us because we're more powerful when we're working together, uh, when we're putting our heads together to solve problems and do and take on projects together.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

And be different.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Yes, but uh of course, and differences matter, uh, but I think that they're kind of made to matter more disproportionately. Yeah. Um uh and individuality is not the same thing as difference. Like uh being in tune with what's yours in your heart uh is not the same thing as I have these qualities that make me different from the next person. In fact, a lot of the things that happen in the human heart are universal, are things that connect all of us. And so what we're doing is we're walking around with all these very congruent and uh potentially harmonious tones ringing in the centers of our souls, but then all get drowned out by the noise of what makes you different. How are you getting more than the next guy? Are you, you know, have you got something that's better than your neighbor? Um, and so there's so much work in culture and marketing and in ideology that's to separate us from one another and to actually remove us from what connects us with one another. Um, and I I don't know. I mean, I don't want to like be in denial of anything by by by naming this. Um uh you know, I there are successes that I'm proud of. Uh and I, you know, I think honesty is being able to say if you've done something well, to be able to feel some satisfaction in that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Um 100% because you chose to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Sure. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Um uh Do you need any water, by the way? That would be wonderful. Yeah, if if you pass the cup, I'll pour some in.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

That's nice. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Oh, the massive the tanker. The tanker.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Um so anyway, I don't mean to get get on again too much of a platform about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

No, and just to be clear, I brought I the reason I bring it up is because we're talking about your life story.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

And and and um But for me, yeah, it's kind of it's almost like a you know, it's like a chew toy or something. Yeah, I I don't I I can't resist seeing it in relationship with these kinds of larger social. You bring up great points.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Um uh and listen, there's major flaw listen, I I went to school in the Boston area. There's so many colleges there. Harvard, MIT, these are some of the heaviest hitters in the in the biz. So there's this really tiny handful of schools that that that get that type of clout. And so I I know what you mean about like the hype aspect. There's a lot of hype. And uh it's so disconnected from like honestly reflecting the quality or the potential of individuals. I mean, uh th really their focus is centered on SAT scores and grades uh like GPA. So I think they're missing a big part of the picture, these uh hyper selective schools. By the way, just fun fact to throw to the side is a lot of those schools, I looked at like their acceptance rate and it's like four or five percent, really low. And it's like but it's interesting that they it's interesting like the metrics that I I think the metrics they use can k some of

Life at Stanford University

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

So you get to college, right? Because we're, you know, we're walking through life. You get to Stanford. Is it what you expected? Is it better? Is it what what are some uh things that were sort of met your expectations? What w what was the culture like? I'd like to learn a little bit about what it was like.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Well, uh it's a beautiful place. Uh lots of lots of intelligent people. Palo Alto? Palo Alto's a fun is Palo Alto is where you're the you know, the university itself is kind of a tucked away from uh the rest of the town. Um is a long uh drive that you take to get in um uh uh from downtown. But um uh yeah, it's a a beautiful place and and and and a beautiful time. I mean, it was also a hard time in in plenty of ways. Um a wide variety of people that were there. Uh I was in a kind of funny group of people where our humanities core uh requirement we satisfied by taking um a hefty class that kind of took up half of our schedule um together and also living in the same uh dorms together. Sometimes our rep to the rest of the university were that we were a little bit uh yeah, a little bit the weirdos, a little bit the nerds, uh, which is funny to be at a school like that. But you know, I mean, yeah, there's like I say, lots of different kinds in that in that school. You got a lot of athletes uh and a lot of parties, uh, which isn't a was a surprise uh uh to me. Uh um did you take party? I'd go and dance it up, sure. Yeah. Um, but I did, you know, I think because I'm from pretty rough roots, um, I de I you know, I definitely didn't feel like I was of the same social class as a lot of people that I was there for. And I also didn't have the same kind of gunner mentality of, you know, knowing exactly what one is supposed to do to advance one's you know, I was kind of there in a kind of a in a sincere mode of learning humanity and learning about how I can be of of good uh to humanity. Yeah, so that's that that's kind of what led me into studying the things that I did.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

You majored in philosophy, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

Along with psychology, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Psychology, philosophy, probably fairly interrelated fields in some ways, I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I I love the purity of the motivation, I I I have to say, of the of because uh you're right, a lot of things are treated as a means to an end in our culture, a means to a like a capitalistic end or a commercial end. There's probably uh uh some kids like you who are like, wait a minute, I thought this was about learning and and pursuing knowledge and enriching my intellect, but there's a lot of kids here who are using

Alex's favorite professors and philosophers, while at Stanford

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

it as a means to an end, a means to something else, to to some sort of life that they envision themselves having or career. So so you're in philosophy, you're in psychology, right? Let me ask this: were there adults in the world at the time or or people in the world who you sort of looked at in whether you whether in high school or in college, and thought, I sort of would like to have a life kind of like that, or I would sort of like to model my career after someone kind of like that, or or did you have those kinds of thoughts or those kinds of heroes in high school or college?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

Sure. Uh you know, I I looked up to and had good relationships with uh with a number of professors. Um and I yeah, remember in particular there was uh one professor, Lanier Anderson, who uh was so um emotionally engaged uh in the material that he was in the in the philosophy material that he was walking us through, that it was infectious, you know, uh it it kind of seized all of us bec uh and by, you know, on a more uh personal and intimate level so that we weren't just learning about what some folks said at some point and you know getting being able to recite that, but learning about why it mattered to us and to and to how we live, um and you know, and he he he's you know totally rigorous scholar in the mix of it. So you so you're learning how to emotionally engage with the m material while you're engaged in a very critical analysis and trying to get everything in the most uh responsible and accurate way, uh, but also to see kind of the social responsibility that uh goes with the territory of what you're learning. Um I also, you know, looked up to uh great minds of the past. Uh Seren Kierkegaard was a uh very cherished uh philosopher to me in those um uh in those early years. Um uh and I remember walking through the uh the first paragraph of of his book, The Sickness Unto Death, uh, in that existentialism class. And walking, it's a very it's kind of a funny paragraph, uh if anybody uh reads it, uh uh talking about kind of the infinite intricacy of the human spirit in in its relationship with itself uh and its actively relating itself to itself, and this being a a lifelong um matter uh in which uh a human being is relating between their their freedom and their necessity, between their infinitude and their finitude, uh, and um their eternity and their temporality. Uh and that was all music to my ears because I think it did register that we are between these two poles all of the time, uh, and it's a kind of confounding uh about how one does do honor to the these aspects of one's existence. His conclusion there is that the only way that we could resolve or make the pieces fit together is to actually give ourselves over to God. If one, you know, is allergic to the concept of God. They might think of giving themselves over to the world as a whole or you know the d the depths of reality, however they understand it. But the idea that the human project is actually at the end of the day not just your own. You are uh enmeshed in a larger world, cosmos, maybe even divine story, and the way to complete the picture is to uh be open to that, um, even if you know that puts you in a space of not knowing, of uh helplessness even,

Insights about Kierkegaard

SPEAKER_01 1:13:28

and uh and that actually on the other side of that, you know, miracles can happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

This is Kierkegaard, right? Is he your favorite philosopher?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:39

I I would I have definitely said that uh at at various turns, but many uh other philosophers have also been very influential on me, and I'm I'm I have I take issues with him sometimes. One of my hobby horses during my div uh divinity uh school time was trying to uncover the uh elements of uh Kierkegaard who when he was a more social thinker, because he's kind of characteristically uh deemed as a the prophet of the individual, and he would address his books to that single individual, you know, the one out there that has ears to hear. Uh and often if you will go to seminaries in the United States, uh where Kierkegaard is a darling of many seminarians, um, you know, the here here is maybe the most sensitive uh searcher of the human experience that they'll come across. And the ideology that's smuggled in there is that at the end of the day, it's just each of us, or maybe just each of us and God, abstracting us from the larger social field that all of us are in, and that actually in his, I think, more lucid and and wiser moments, and especially as he grew older, uh, he saw that that it that it was utterly necessary to see ourselves as as connected with one another, and that the the human experience is uh yeah, necess necessarily engages in our relationships with one another rather than just our relationship with ourselves, our relationship with God. So I think that often there is a miseducation of the basically the ministers of the spirit uh in in the country where they'll you might get from them that at the end of the day the people fade away and it's just you. But I think that is in service to an ideology that uh individualizes and atomizes and abstra actually is an abstraction. It abstracts people away from a material reality, which is that uh all of us are in this together. Uh and he he he saw that in in moments, and uh so I I could kind of make it a project of uncovering all those moments to show that there, you know, he was maybe a little bit of a closet revolutionary uh in his day.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

Well, it sounds like some of the core teachings of your favorite philosophers are uh pretty pretty directly tied into some things that could be helpful for society

The collective vs. the individual

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

today. Um, again, going back to your Aquarius roots of uh radical change and revolution and uh, you know, uh existential thoughts of the collective versus the uh the individual. And I loved one thing that you said once, you know, you you you pointed out how you know we're led to think that let's say in the arts, that by artistically expressing ourselves in a way that's really individual is risky, or you know, that if we express something that in our mind we probably think is so individual that no one else will relate to. But it's those very things that we're afraid to reveal or to express uh artistically that a lot of times resonate the the strongest with the most people. Um, you know, I um so I I just think that's like a real-world example of uh loving love.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

And I and I j I don't think they have to be uh opposites. You know, I I think that the blended variety of the universe, which is ubiquitous, is not lessened by the fact that the the world is so varied. And Kierkegaard talks about love as the as this kind of quiet spring that flows at the bottom of a lake. Sometimes the lake might dry or be still, uh, but ever flowing, always there is this stream of love. It's an endless spring, the love. It is, and and uh that is something that unites us. Now, you know, love takes many forms and it's a um uh you know awful things can be done in the name of love, but there is a way of being in tune with it as a deepest element of our nature that clears the way, clears the mind, honors relationships. I mean it's a discipline, it's not you know, it's not just a feeling. I think it's a feeling is is part of the mix, but it's a it's like a it's a way of living, it's universal, and alas we get alienated from it. Um, but I I feel like the call is always there, and uh if we open the ears to hear it, uh it's there for us and we will see more the love that abides us and the love that we're invited into uh and the love that uh can change the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

Beautiful. I like to view a lot of these seeming quote differences between us. They're they're only surface level differences that sort of allow us each to contribute in our own ways, but the core of where they're coming from and where they're aiming at is that spring of love. Um, by the way, did the

Alex's spiritual journey

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

like what your spiritual journey, I mean, it's like we have uh I want to talk a little about that. Just it's a where were you at in your spiritual journey at that point in time, like let's say college era? Did you identify as a particular religious sect? Of how did you identify in those regards at the time?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Uh well at the time I certainly I identified as as Christian, uh, but I wasn't any denomination? Well, I had I had been in a Baptist church for a long time and I was baptized in a Baptist church. Um, but uh towards the end of high school, I was getting really into Calvinist theology. Um uh and I was going to a Presbyterian uh college group um along with some other groups um on campus. Uh there were things that I learned when I uh was hearing about um the faith in from more objective perspectives rather than like very interested perspectives of people that were within it. Uh, you know, I took a class on the New Testament in uh in college that just tells the the true story that this was not a work that descended from heaven, uh, but it was a a patchwork of um of you know many books that were written by many people and that there were many works that were excluded, and there is selective storytelling in in in it. And you know, that was a bit of a corrective to what will often be received in evangelical circles where um every last word is as if it's you know God using a human type uh a typewriter in the shape of a human to like get the word out. Right. And I think my my running thought of uh about scripture these days, um, in the Christian tradition and in other traditions, uh is that you know, people have experiences with the ultimate reality of life, whatever you want to call it, God or the all or the one or eternity or this very moment, and they want to talk about it. Uh and they'll have different ways of talking about it, and they'll have different uh abstractions and ideas about talking about it, and sometimes they'll have practical advice about it, and they'll have ways of organizing uh groups to explore that experience and follow it. And yeah, so then we end up with uh with scripture, but often we'll have you know human fingerprints smudged all over uh these texts and human agendas, whether, you know, about people's right because God said so to go and massacre a bunch of people. And I think that that's uh you know, the origin of those those precisely those lives uh would would be opposed to to this kind of, I mean, just opposed to the massacre, but but also m uh opposed to using the God's name to authorize it uh is you know an insult to injury. So, you know, I kind of took a more critical attitude towards the canon of uh scripture in those days. I also threw a lot of classes in ethics in the philosophy program. My, you know, one of the things that was keeping me in kind of a dogmatic mode was that, hey, if there is no God or if we're outside of the these creedal faiths, then you know, we can do whatever we want at uh at all, and and there's no there's nothing to stop people from from living in cruel ways. And um, but through the ethics classes, I learned that there's actually very robust traditions of deriving ethical responsibilities out without there being some kind of requirement that a god told people what to do. And you know, even in spiritual traditions, there is the thought that our the law is written on on our hearts and we're responsible to live well, regardless of whether we've been told to by someone or or other. But the philosopher Immanuel Kant developed a really kind of magnificent and tight core of the ethical uh life. This was particularly in a class by Professor Agnieszka Jaworska, uh, who walked us through Kant's uh groundwork for the metaphysics of morals and uh uh uncovered a kind of elegant argument that uh Immanuel Kant had for uh grounding our ethical commitments in a way that didn't require us to say, uh, just because God said such and such, yeah, um that's why you should uh live in a

What happens after we die?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:53

particular way. So at the time, you know, I was still drew lots of nourishment from uh my faith. In those days, I thought that what the job that I was going to take after college was I was gonna go be a missionary somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:08

Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Um, you know, and uh early in ear early on in college, I was I was still, you know, of the belief that you know hell is a real threat and you know you want to save as many souls as you can from what could be more important than saving people from Wow, that was early on in college?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

Yeah, yeah. But but uh you know, eventually I I I think mission like save them from hell. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

What could be more motivating my um belief in such a awful theological uh claim as that did get eroded after some you know critical thought and awareness of uh of even of Christian traditions as well that that don't believe in such a such an awful thought, um, where my concerns have r uh reoriented is that uh hell is real in the sense that humanity creates all kinds of hells in this plane uh and subjects their fellow humans to it. Whether war or exploitation uh or uh cruelty uh to human beings, to animals, to the land that gives us life. Um I am committed to collective liberation from those hells.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:24

Would you say your study of philosophy helped you reach that realization?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:29

Yeah, definitely. But I also think it was a it was a i I think also th theologically I I pursued a a line of critical inquiry that uh led me to believe that it would that it was God or the or the the deepest values that we have that would that should uh lead us to let go of that obsession and orient our souls to what is right before our eyes in this life. Now, I do I do think that whatever happens after death matters and you know uh as I've experienced what do you think happens? Uh well I have you know, I believe that what uh uh appears to divide us from the rest of the world falls away and we're more unified with the the whole, the all, the one. My sense is that the human spirit there is something so uncanny about it, so powerful about it. Uh yeah, I have the hunch that, you know, despite appearances, that it if the that if the body perishes there might still be a story yet for the for the soul and for the um for the spirit. But you know, it says in it says in scripture, uh I has not seen or ear heard nor ever entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those that love God. Or um In other words, no one knows for sure. Sure. Um and uh yeah, there's a um a very important parable that Jesus uh teaches uh about the um about a rich man and a uh and an impoverished man who lays at his doorstep and the rich man enjoys all of the fat of the land and uh his his feasts and fancy clothes and barely gives any recognition to this uh man in utter utter destitution. And when the when Lazarus, the the poor man, uh dies, he goes to paradise, and the rich man goes to a place of torment. Now, this is all a parable, it's Jesus kind of uh telling a uh it's almost like a fairy tale, right? The rich man begs. Abraham, who's presiding over the paradise that Lazarus is in, he he begs him across a great chasm between the two of them, send some, send Lazarus to go tell my family that this is all real. And we should, you know, they should get their act together. And what Abraham says, or what Jesus says through through Abraham in the in the story, is that, you know, even if somebody raised from the dead, it wouldn't be enough for them. They already have the law and the prophets. Let them obey those. And what that I take away from that whole story is that actually for Jesus, in moments, I mean, he also talks about hell a whole lot. Or at least, you know, whoever wrote the gospels has Jesus talking about hell a whole lot. Although, again, there are ways of interpreting that where, you know, we're looking at the imminent hells of our of our plane. Um, but it that what that parable kind of suggests to me is that, hey, don't overlook the man suffering at your doorstep, or don't think that it's only what could happen later on that should influence how you live now. Uh, and it's almost it's almost like an agnostic moment on Jesus' part, is my reading of that, uh, where kind of reg regardless of whatever is the case with regard to afterlife, we have all of these obvious responsibilities right now, and we can either be neglectful of those uh or uh open our eyes to to to see them. You know, how hard would it have been for the man to greet Lazarus, share some of his fancy clothes, give him a seat at the table and welcome him into the into the community? Why do people feel such a horror at integrating people that are suffering that way? And that I think that there's something that we've been trained in in society is to make sure that the outcasts are kept outcasts, often as examples, so that you know none of us, you know, make the wrong mistakes, um, keep keep working at the at the at the treadmill. Yeah. So it's like punishment, punishment.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:11

They let them be punished,

Finding transcendence within our earthly domain

SPEAKER_00 1:30:13

uh, don't do what they did. Right. Learn from that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:16

So a lot, yeah, long divigation on the on the idea of uh of the afterlife. But uh my my general orientation, and there is kind of a theological distinction between the transcendent plane and the imminent plane, you know, what is kind of beyond us, and maybe they'll often think of it as even beyond what is material, to what is right here, and they'll think of Jesus as this being who embodied both the transcendent domain, bringing the divine into the sphere, but also a utterly human uh imminent domain. Imminent domain. And uh, I will be erring on the side of the corrective towards this field of imminence. I I actually I think they don't need to be pitted against each other so much. I think that the imminent world itself, there is transcendence suffused throughout it. You know, things are always developing, evolving, surprises are happening all over. Definitely, I think that the category of what is transcendent, or you know, like we talked about it before about or to the category of like the the individual, they can serve as these like escape hatches that enable people to be in denial of realities, both you know, just situational and ethical realities. And I don't want, I mean, I don't want to trap anybody, but I also but I but I want to point out that these are escape hatches that we're that we're using. If we need relief, maybe there's better ways than to be in denial and to uh you know set up a society that uh is just a menace to so many and to our

Why are so many Christians un-Christlike, today?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:55

each other and to ourselves. Um yeah, maybe there is grace and relief in other ways than these uh these escape hatches that we set up.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:03

Why do you think so many Christians today seem to ignore those parts of the Bible uh that highlight the importance of being kind or being empathetic to others or being understanding and forgiving of people who make mistakes and people who are di different from you and you're w w where's the disconnect? Where where did there's it does seem like there's a lot of Christians who are very legalistic in their approach to religion, uh, where there's a set of rules and this is how you live, and people who don't do these things are doing it wrong, and I'm doing it right, and you know, there seems like a lot of self-righteousness in that way of thinking. Uh did Christians at some point go astray? What why does it feel like there's a large trend today of a large faction of Christians who just have this kind of superiority uh complex about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

Well, Jesus foretold that many would say, Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name? Do we not do all these kinds of things in your name? We said your name all over the place. Uh, and he'll say, uh, depart from me. I never knew you. Uh, you never knew me. Uh he he'll he has he has the saying, I think this is in Matthew 25, where Matthew, uh where um at the end of time, uh people uh will claim this this uh intimate relationship with Jesus, and he'll say, But you I was sick and you didn't come and visit me, I was hungry and you didn't feed me, I was naked and you didn't clothe me. I'd say, What do you mean? What did when was that ever the case? And he said, Whenever that happened to the least of these, our our brothers and sisters, uh, you denied it to me. He says that you when you're when you're denying your relationship with someone else and the responsibilities that arise from that, you're actually denying your relationship with Jesus, with with the Lord. Uh and you know, then he's he says the other the other folks who who did do these things, who visited the uh the the sick and and uh attended to the needs of of those who were in destitution, when they did that, they were doing it to Jesus. Now it's a high calling, and Jesus talks about, you know, it's easier for a camel to go through the Adam and Eel, a rich man, or a rich man would need to give up all they have. Uh or I mean sometimes the the theology of the cross can be can be distorted too, but he he he says that my way is the is the way of the cross. Uh and um it's so it's for m it's uh daunting the call to uh live in in the way that Jesus invites people to. Um but he then he also says that his his burden is uh light and that he's that that if you're weary you ought to come to him. And this is where I think that that as much as it seems like a threat to like embrace that we are in connection with everyone else, it can seem like it's oh my god, it's it's you know, it's bearing down on me or something like that. Hey, it's a fact. We are so we're in denial and we're investing a m huge amount of energy to always push against uh that reality, and we're kind of conceiving of it in all the wrong way. You know, if we're if we're trying to set up our lives and societies and relationships in such a way where we're willing to help one another and be helped, it's not like that disturbs everything about our lives. There's plenty of things that, you know, we're that we get to that we enjoy doing and that we've uh um that are important to us that would that would abide. It would just be that that that less people would be shut out of all of that and and the um the deeper material that we are all working with, we'd get to be doing that more to together. And um I that's where I can I can see that when Jesus says that his his burden is light, kind of what he's what he's pointing to, that there is a world of grace that we could be inhabiting, that there's a relief in it. I mean, A, thinking about all the energy that we expend keeping all that at bay, in many ways would be less strenuous. There's so much waste.

Religion without coercion; Should kids be made to go to church?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:43

And I think so much waste has to do with propping up basically a zombie system that's that's mostly good for a few.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

I think that your way of approaching religion and and spirituality is very open-minded and uh would you agree that it made a big difference the way you came to spirituality or or religion in the first place? I mean, because it was for a lot of people it's sort of forced upon them. That doesn't seem to be the case for you. You sort of came to it seems you came to religion without your family pushing it on you. Is that's correct, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:22

Yeah. You know, I I feel like it was still a social matter. If I had friends that invited me to their congregation, there were still influences, but yeah, I mean I know the difference between people that yeah, were compelled to go, to go, and you know, many of my fellow parishioners uh that when I was growing up were uh you know in that in that situation. Um it's it's better for one to be in genuine engagement where they that engages their own faculties, their own feelings, uh, and their experience will end up being better, the congregation will end up will end up being better. Um all that said, I know that you know it's it's kind of a unique challenge in any any given family. Like what do you do with regard to a faith that you cherish, uh, you know, with respect to the to the next generation. Uh, and there are dividends to be reaped by uh people being, you know, just just just bringing kids to to youth groups where they won't be isolated or they won't just be stuck on the social media or something like that. You know, people might complain about it and they're bored during Sunday school or whatever. I think in principle, it's a it's a it's a good thing, uh uh rel religious in engagement. But yeah, the sh surely uh the less coercion the better. When we're talking about the younger generations. I mean, I feel like you gotta you gotta be honest and and invite questions uh and not yeah, not not be dogmatic or threaten. I mean, I think that's one of the most awful things that happens in American evangelicalism. It's like, you know, if you do something wrong and you're not right with Jesus, you're in big, big trouble for an eternity. And that's just you don't the the path of fear is not the is not is not a God's path.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:16

Well, people seem to like black and white answers, people seem to

What is God?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:19

like uh simplified solutions and sort of uh connect the dots methods of solving their life problems and and navigating through life. Would you be able to define your personal view of God or of what God is?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:35

So uh um I don't think God is like a thing. A being or a being. Okay. Um, and I think that's probably the first uh thing to knock out is just this uh, you know, image of like an angry grandfather upstairs. We're missing out if we if we reduce God to that. Um but I'm more interested in a in a concept of God. A, I mean, I'm more interested in a concept of God that people that are not theists could also even subscribe to. I'm more interested in a concept of God that has to do with our engagement with life and with reality. Um uh the way that I would define God in my uh during divinity times often was God is everything that we don't know or haven't experienced. And when we admit that, when we're aware of our limitations and our horizons, when we're in that moment of honesty, we we have a glimpse of God, when we have when we practice the courage to cross the threshold and meet someone, visit somewhere new, learn something new, make a friend, fall in love, take a big risk for the sake of the of humanity. Uh when we engage in the courage to do that, we are partaking in the divine life, uh, is the way that I think of it. Um now I've had to kind of uh modulate it a little bit because uh I think God is also to be found in what is utterly familiar to us and utterly intimate to us, what is closer to us even than our own breath. And but precisely because of that, which we can also often so easily overlook. And this is a very imminent God, but still kind of requires this leap to perceive and to see that even if it's the most infinitesimal shift, it can also feel like a whole a shift of an entire world to notice something that has always been there, but one has always been in in denial of. I think of God as a way of being rather than a being. Um all of that said, I am drawn to ancient concepts of of of God that think of God as the one, but the one in its infinite intermultitudes and and and multitudes. Uh you know, they sometimes might call this the philosopher's god. Um but I I don't but I feel like for what a for what a precious concept God is, I don't want it to just be relegated to a concept. So I don't want it to be just the prerogative of the philosophers and the theologians. I I would rather when we when we talk about God it it be uh an opening rather than a closing down, or it would be it be a an expansion of the field of possibilities. Uh this is one of the things that Kierkegaard says once he says once he says God is relation, which is a really n nifty formulation. Another time he says God is that all things are possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:39

Requires some courage to make that leap in belief, I think. Um to to to expand, as you said, yeah, instead of closing down. It's true, but courage is exciting too.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:51

It's very exciting, and uh it's it's the marrow of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

It's an invitation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:56

I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. Uh now and yeah, like I say, I want I want the my kind of formulation to be ones that that people of faith and people that are wary of faith could find some accord with. That's very important to me because I I feel like so much of the the the battles around turfs of various theological commitments uh miss the point. Well, they're narrowing and it's really unfortunate since there's such promise. When we start to search these depths, they have changed the world before. When uh uh when people have drilled into these wells, maybe for lack of a better and especially together. When they have done that, they have changed the world before. And we will con we will change the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:45

That's a wonderful message to sort of uh tail that out on. And what I want to do is let's take

Alex's favorite films, U.S. presidents, etc.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:52

a quick sip of water. I want to bang out a few sort of fun questions that I got here for you. They're quick ones. Uh favorite decade for film. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:05

Oh man, I don't know. I'm not I'm not super super smart on on Matter I'm super informed on Matter's film, but um let's let let's say I there were a lot of you know a lot of important movies in the 90s and the aughts that were uh influential on me. Okay. Um 90s man, you know, but I've seen some older ones that that rock my world uh just as well. I I do not mean to uh betray the city of my upbringing, Los Angeles, to uh um to not have a better answer on that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:38

The capital of filmmaking. Um uh okay, FDR or Abraham Lincoln?

SPEAKER_01 1:45:45

Uh you know, I I went to the American Antiquarian Museum in Worcester, Massachusetts, which had some pamphlets that Lincoln had written that he kind of sounds like a socialist. You know, he was often talking about labor struggles and how unjustly the uh the people's labors were rewarded and uh things were distributed. Um uh Lincoln did some great things. I also think that the accomplishments of the uh great emancipation and the abolition of slavery, I would not credit to the president, I would credit to the the enslaved people that uh took their liberty into their own hands against all odds and with every with risk and uh with great uh immense risk and uh and the their abolitionist comrades that that supported them. So, you know, if I think about the that advancement uh that was long overdue, I think I would be mistaken if Lincoln is the face that I see when I when I think about that. Uh uh, even though, you know, he was a he was a beautiful orator and he made he certainly made some decisions that were better than he could have made otherwise. And he's also a testament to uh a new party being able to take hold and uh and shape politics. I think sometimes we're limited to, I mean, now we're limited to that party and the Democratic Party that's that's even older. Maybe it's time for a new party. Um uh some pros and cons to Lincoln. Right. And FDR, um, you know, he's a he's a child of wealth and power himself. Uh, so I don't, you know, it's not like I trust him uh in an ever less way, but obviously a lot of amazing things happened uh in in his presidencies and they just kept electing him. You know, they had to change the constitution to to keep that from happening. Um I again, I credit, though, the achievements of the of that era more with the labor struggles and socialist struggles uh and women's struggles uh that were uh that were occurring than you know Papa Ro Papa Roosevelt.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:51

Um sounds like it's a tough choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:53

Uh oh, between those two. I I think I'll usually think of FDR before more than I'll think of uh of Lincoln um uh as just you know, out of a out of a president, what kind of prerogatives I I want to have. Um, Lincoln was they he he he ran on on abolition, but a lot of pressure had to be put on him to do that. Similarly, FDR, when he said that he wanted to do all these social programs, he said, I won't be able to do that unless you put a lot of pressure on me. I think with, you know, like a charismatic dude like Obama, who, you know, ended up compromised in a in a lot of different ways, uh uh, I think one of the failures of the Obama presidency, which could have been much greater than it was, um, is that the people who hired him in maybe kind of a racist way were like, hey, we hired him, now he's got to do the job. Uh so the American people that voted him in um kind of sat there back and said, Okay, let him let him do it. Now I think there's multiple sides of that story. I think there was a lot of popular like protest and movement during his presidencies that uh sh should have had found ears to hear in his in his policy and and didn't. So, you know, those are failures on on his part. But you didn't ask about about uh Barack Hussein Obama.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:14

That's okay. That's where we ended up, and that's and that's great too. You know what? I think this podcasting medium is a really is a is a great one uh for you, Alex. Oh, that's you have a lot to say, and that's what you need. It's it's all it's all in the host. Very engaging host here. You need to have a lot to say to do it, and you've got it. I think this is one thing we've learned today. It's a good thing. Um so all right. Well, no need to make a hard line between FDR and Abraham, although it sounds like maybe you're leaning a little FDR. Would you rather be Brad Pitt or Daniel Day Lewis? Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:47

Uh well, Daniel Day Lewis is is kind of cooler. Brad Pitt's had some has has had some cool roles. I really love uh uh the soundtrack for Last of Mohicans. So I'll say in the name of the soundtrack. Track we'll we'll go down to daywards.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:02

Nice, nice, nice. Uh nice to see vanity is uh not your only weighing factor. Um uh Brad Pitt had his moments. He he won an Oscar. He was great and uh you know, but no offense, Brad. I know you're listening to the biggest. No offense, Brad. I know you're out there, you know, you're tuning in every week. Uh but Daniel Day, I mean, you know, I I Daniel Day is hard to pass up. Uh okay. Two directors, two Andersons, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wes Anderson. Do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:31

Uh well, Magnolia is one of my very favorite movies. Um I I of course have, you know, I dil I get a lot of kicks from watching Wes Anderson movies. Uh Rushmore. But uh and maybe maybe Rushmore might be the closest to heart because I think that what he can trip over is that he can miss kind of like the sincere heart of the film. There or it'll be like so much of it is stylized and ironic that then the few moments where it does where the insincerity really breaks through maybe work by contrast effect there. But I but when I think of a magnificent movie like Magnolia, um there's yeah, there's so much real human pathos uh uh that that that the characters are working through the script is working through that um uh I I'll say I'm partial to to PTA. But very nice. Um uh I want to agree with that. Lots respect to West, uh you know, devoted listener to the podcast, I'll say to the Yeah, another listener, West.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:34

Uh yeah, if you're hanging out with Brad. Um okay. Um one one last thing, and then we're gonna close with a nice and by the way, our timing, not too shabby because the drum

Two things that make Alex happy

SPEAKER_00 1:51:45

my my favorite drummer has just showed up in the building and and is is is uh hammering his way to the gods. Two things that make you happy, and it could be a place as well. But two things or places that make you happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:00

Well, uh the first thing that came to mind was poetry, which has kind of become a predilection of mine uh later in life. Um uh originally just by going to bookstores and trying to find smaller books that uh aren't gonna take up as much time a place in my uh my library and things that I are portable. Um you can read a little bit at a time. Uh, but I've I've derived immense pleasure from uh uh from poetry in in recent years, and uh um you know it kind of it cuts through a lot of the a lot of the din. Uh and uh there are just these exquisite moments where things get turned and where you you see them from another side in and in poetry that that delights me. And I will say that the stars are another thing, another billion things, trillion things, uh that m that make me happy anytime I look up at the at night sky.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:09

Uh what do you love about them?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:11

They're always there. Uh and they're there for all of us. And they're ancient, you know, we're seeing this ancient starlight. There's a a line I quote in a in a sermon once. Uh the line goes something like uh it took the light forever to get to your eyes. It took the light absolutely forever to get to your eyes. So there's something mystical in looking up at the night sky, and not to overlook the grand beauty of the of the great moon uh who uh is arrayed um uh by all of this stellar splendor around her. Uh uh the night sky astonishes me and it's always different, uh, but always the same. And uh, you know, it it um it makes me think of ancient humanity, primordial humanity beyond earlier than history, you know, sitting around the campfire and telling stories uh and looking at that. And having the having the the chance to uh and the time and the attention to look at those stars night after night

"Blue Crystal Fire" - Alex shares a song with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:22

and see how they move and to glory in the in the beauty of this universe that we get to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:29

Beautiful. I love that. Okay. Um we are going to listen to a song uh that I asked Alex if he would choose a song to bring in for some show and tell. And uh uh he's he's done that. Uh uh, I don't know what it is, and I'm about to hear, and once he reveals it to us, what I would invite uh the listeners to do, that's uh that's you two, Wes and Brad, is to uh pause it, pause the thing, listen to the song if you can, and enjoy it with us, and we're gonna and we'll come back after we listen to the song. What is the song, Alex?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:05

Well, the song that came to mind was one by the artist Robbie Basho, artist from the 60s and 70s. And the song is called Blue Crystal Fire. And uh I um Where can we find it? You can fire it up on YouTube. Okay. And uh he sings Robbie Basho is a very interesting character. He's combining um American folk music Americana with Eastern uh music forms as well as Native American. So he's kind of you know reaching between worlds. He's regaled for his uh his instrumentation. He'll often have his big 12 string with his r his unique uh picking. This one it kind of s hangs out on a particular chord for a while with some little uh little things he's playing with.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:00

But kind of a drone or kind of a drone, he likes himself some drone.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:04

Um uh but uh and he'll he'll sing as as y'all will see, uh different little moments and little uh entities, uh little glimmers uh within us and in the world that we encounter that guide the way, that uh accompany us, that warm us, and that do more than we even see and recognize.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:32

We're gonna listen to that song. Uh can you say the name once more of the song?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:36

Blue Crystal Fire. Blue Crystal Fire.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:40

Station break, we're gonna listen to it. Go check it out, and we'll be back in just a second.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:56

That was beautiful. Back from the blue crystal fire.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:59

We're black, we're we're black from the blue Bristol bright. That was beautiful. The the blue crystal fire.

Closing remarks

SPEAKER_00 1:57:08

That was that was a a transcendent piece. It was it's it takes you places. Even got a moonbeam reference in there. That's right. Uh from uh going back to our talk about the sky. Thank you, uh uh Alexander Aquarius Zane for gracing us with your presence today. And uh I I've had a lot of fun. Did you have fun?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:27

Absolutely, yes. Uh Matthew the maestro. I really, really appreciate just all of the all of your your kind questions and your the generosity uh that you put into uh into thinking of questions and setting up this whole situation. Um it's humbling and um and encouraging. Uh thanks, man. Uh and also no surprise, because you're a mensch, Matt. Uh you're a real good man and uh thank you. Um you're a positive influence on this world. You know, may uh may the blue crystal fire that burns in each one of us and burns in all of us burn brightly.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:07

Listen, we're all thankful to get a break from my babbling. So thank you. And uh uh thanks for the kind words. Everybody, thanks for everybody, whoever that would have maybe the one, Brad West. We don't know how, yeah, just all every one of you. Uh thanks for listening, thanks for tuning in, and uh we'll we'll talk to you next time. Have a good week, everybody.