Episode 18 - Mumble Rap and Backyard Nurseries

Matt and Karan have another one of their highly important discussions. They start off by exploring Matt's feeling that most modern rap music is, in fact, and in every objective sense of the word, "bad," and they go on to talk about Russian bots on Facebook, in places you'd least expect to find them. Jump on board and let's get this train rolling!   

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Cowron Momegati.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

James Hetfield, what are you doing here? How did James Hetfield get into this interview? I've been asking him to come on the podcast forever, and he keeps keeps telling me he's busy with some band called Metallica. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Well, that's what he tells everyone, but the truth is he's just busy with his bees. Because he's a beekeeper.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

And and an interesting, interesting fact, which I by the way, I'm a big Metallica fan, but I didn't know this. Uh, and Mac told me over um the we oh the last week. Um he told me by a WhatsApp text. I'm gonna let him talk about it because uh I think that's that's interesting. I'll pass the buck back to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

I guess I don't have too much to say on that, other than that I I heard James Hetfield. He uh said in some interview, I forget who was interviewing him, but he said in his husky growl that he is a beekeeper now, and uh a big part of his mental focus goes into his bees and taking great care of his honey bees. I don't know how many hives he owns. Uh I sure wish he'd send me some honey because I sure do love honey.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Who doesn't?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

And uh I go through honey really quickly, actually. I eat a lot of honey. I'm a bear. I'm basically a honey bear.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

That's awesome. I mean, who doesn't like honey? I mean, maybe there's people out there. I think there could be people out there, but like yeah, I really honey is one of those things where I would was I would be very curious to be around the first human being who ever stumbled upon honey. Um a great theme, by the way. Good, bad, and the ugly. Great, great theme. Like it just gets stuck in your head.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Good, the bad, and the ugly, the theme. Yeah, it's great. Hey, speaking of Metallica and James Hetfield, didn't they did they play that before some of their shows?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Oh, yeah, of course. Uh before SM, uh, they did uh the ecstasy of gold, which is just awesome. Yeah, but it's it's a great theme.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

It's such an epic way to start a show. You know, I always it's like to start a show with that theme, you kind of have to have really epic music, I feel. Yes, yeah. Uh maybe you know, Deathcab for Cutie might not be able to rock the ecstasy of gold before their show. Uh I don't know. They could do it ironically, and then kind of march out with their acoustic guitars and sing a few lullabies, but sure, you know, uh sure it would be a gear shift between the intro and the show itself.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

If I was a betting man, I would say the uh people who like good and the bad in the ugly wouldn't really like uh Deathcap for Cutie scoring the soundtrack for that movie. Yeah, it doesn't fit.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

It just doesn't fit.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

All right, so I do have a couple updates. And I and but uh I actually was cool. Uh last time I asked you to go first. I sort of enjoyed it. Do you want to go first again? Because that it it did I thought it went really nicely last time. I liked hearing your update last time. Uh it's just coming from me. There wasn't like a listener who told me that. I just enjoyed it actually.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I've been getting fan mail all week. Your mailbox has been full. Yeah, overflowing. Yes, it has. It's been great. Um, no, I don't really have a ton, ton of uh of updates from my side. Uh just the only big update I have is um I have been um actively learning some music again, just like as a relaxation thing. Yeah, it's great. It's great. My my daughter's at that age where she's getting into music. She's like, I hear her humming songs and stuff. So like when I have time, which is not much, but like I have about like sometimes I have like 10 or 15 minutes before I have to take her to bed, and then like I so I break out the guitar and like I purposely learn a song in front of her. And uh yeah, sometimes she really likes it. Yeah, yeah. I've been um so it's it's great, it's been great. Like the first time I played, she was like she was hovering around me, like watching me play, and then the second day she was like, Hey, can you learn this? Kids she watches a lot of kids' shows, and if you have kids, you know, basically she wants me to learn songs from Blippy and the Wiggles. So I was like, Yeah, I can learn that. And hey, if you know guitar and you have a kid, easy songs to play. They're just like three cards, and they're like the most basic cards C, C, and G, uh, and D. I think those they shift between those three, and you can do a lot of fun stuff with that. So I've been doing that, and it's just been great. Um, it's one of those really wholesome things that I've been loving. Um, and that's my nice update for the week.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

That's beautiful. I it's a beautiful update. I love it. Um just want to make a quick statement, and I'm gonna make this statement uh respectfully, actually, uh or as respectfully as I can. Um, you mentioned Blippy. Yeah, yes. Um Blippy really freaks me out. That's all. That's that's just a quick update for me.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

It's a it's interesting that you say that because like I don't try to know that. I didn't know that. I um um I was introduced to to Blippy through my daughter because she was watching it, and I was like, okay, this guy is interesting, like you know, he's seems to seem to have a way with like I mean, at least like she was like, oh my god, like she was she couldn't stop watching, so I was like, Oh, okay, he's definitely doing something right. But uh then I went online and like I was seeing like there are a lot of people who say that they get freaked out by blippy, and I was like, wow, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

So it's interesting that you say that. Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Um that's yeah. Um, well, you know, I I'm a little freaked out by clowns in general. Oh, yeah. Uh you know, I know that's a cliche thing to say. Everybody says, I'm afraid of clowns. Well, guess what, bitch? I'm actually afraid of clowns. And no, I'm no, I'm not act I'm not like a well, okay, what's the right word? I'm not afraid of them the same way I would be like afraid of a bear or a tiger. Right, right. I'm more so I'm I feel they make me feel uncomfortable. Um, they make me feel a little anxious, a little tense, and a little uncomfortable. But I I wouldn't say that I'm like deeply afraid of them, unless it's John Wayne Gacy, and then I'm really afraid of that clown. Yes. But I'm not, you know, normal clown Well, there's no such thing as other clowns, other middle-aged men going to children's parties and face paint. Uh I'm not afraid of them, I just don't completely trust them. That's right, yeah. Yes, feeling on clowns. Yeah. But but yeah, that's a great update. And um, I'm gonna share a quick update. So I um uh I follow a garden page on Facebook called Backyard Nursery Growers. Okay. Because I propagate fig plants from cuttings that I take from fig trees, and then I sell them on Facebook Marketplace sometimes. Well, I don't know if I'm gonna do it anymore because it's kind of a hassle scheduling with people to come, and then you get like 12 bucks for a fig, a little baby fig tree, and it's like it's fine, but it's all and it's a good, it's a great feeling to to do that because you know that that tree might be going to someone's yard that or is going to someone's yard, and it may grow, you know. Ten years from now, it could be this big fig tree that yields tons of fruit every year, and their children and grandchildren might eat figs from that fig tree for forever for a long time. And so it's a really cool feeling almost of like well, the legacy is the tree's legacy, but you're kind of birthing that legacy for that tree and for that those people or that family, and it's a really beautiful feeling, but anyway, I've enjoyed doing that. I think I've sold yeah, close to a hundred now of little small fig trees, nice, usually somewhere between ten dollars or twelve dollars each. Um, that's awesome. Yeah, it was really cool. I love plants, so it was really fun for me. And uh and I know you love fig trees, and I know you love fig trees.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah, just for perspective, just to add something here. Uh, when we were in Los Angeles, like most people they see a celebrity or something, they stop. Matt stops when he sees a fig tree, and he's like, I gotta go.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

I'm a fig shonado. I see what you did there. Well done, sir. Yeah, baby. It's a good joke. Yeah, thank you, thank you. So, anyway, I love how when I said thank you, I sounded proud of my joke. Um, because I I was a tiny bit proud of it. So I I I like getting tips about growing. Uh, and this last week I saw something pop up on Facebook on the uh Backyard Nursery Growers page that I had never seen before and never expected, which was this sultry, maybe Russian or Ukrainian girl posting in somewhat broken English, uh, but posting a sexy picture of herself, and the caption was like, I need help getting started gardening and learn how to proper tend my garden. And then and some guy in the comments uh and some guy in the comments responded to her post and said, I'll help you tend your garden. And he misspelled a couple of words in that sentence, but we all knew what he was trying to say. Right, right, right. Uh, and the point is we all know that bots and women of ill intent selling their selling their wares are popping up everywhere on the internet and ruining it, but I never expected to see it on my favorite Facebook gardening page.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Right. Did you feel violated?

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Something sacred has some something sacred died within me that day. No, I'm just kidding. Um it was just like shock. Well, oh okay, well, like to be honest, I I didn't love it. Uh I I kind of felt like get the fuck out of here. This is my gardening page. Yeah. Like, I'm here. Listen, this is a part of my day that's pure. I in this moment, what I'm doing, researching fig propagation, it doesn't get much more pure. Right. You are injecting impurity into the most pure part of my day. So get the fuck out of here. That's kind of how I felt. I felt a little bit cheated out of the just the the spiritual, moral, self-gratification feeling that I get from signing onto that Facebook, that that backyard nursery growers page on Facebook and just feeling just like a good guy.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah. So so get out of here. Get out of this my gardening page. That's kind of time in a place. This is definitely something. The last place and the last time for you to be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Can you leave my gardening place page alone for God's sakes?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I mean, I guess, I guess, you know, there's just like there's there's so much competition on OnlyFans, and oh, you know, you know, so like I think I guess they gotta like, you know, start you know, marketing themselves in all kinds of places.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

I mean, you know, you know things are bad when they've reached the gardening page. It's like, come on.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Oh my god, when the OnlyFans women are getting on your gardening page. That's when you know the economy is the best end of the fucking world right there.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

What is your indication of a bad economy? Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Yeah, what what's an indication that the end times are near?

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Well, I could think of one. Yeah, it's so I think your point is basically like there are certain some pure things in the world that you know we shouldn't shouldn't be tainted by there is still sacred things within this realm.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Um this earthly plane. So I I wanted to so that's my update. That's my life update. Um, but I I wanted to do uh could we actually do song of the day? Because I I do have I have a song of the day that I just want to mention.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

If that's already I always like songs, talking about songs. I know me too. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

My song of the day. Um You started that off like a show and tell. Yeah, that's what it feels like to me. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm re it's a show and tell, and I'm just the class is listening respectfully. Because when it was show and tell time in school, the class would always listen. I felt they that they would listen so respectfully. Right. They were interested. I loved show and tell in school. So yeah, I like the song I Wanna Know What Love Is by the band Foreigner. Wow. That is a throwback if if I were uh make of that what you will, but it's the truth. Yeah, just a brief aside that I posted a comment on Facebook this past week basically saying something like I don't know, publicly or on Facebook that I had never expressed before, but always wanted to, which is that I really hate uh this modern type of rap music akin to the sort of little pump, little yachty, little zan, all the littles um and all the post uh all the post Drake, you know, wannabes that just flooded.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Mumble rap, basically.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yeah, mumble rap, exactly. If and and let might as well just cut to the chase and use a term we all know what it means, that we all that we know the meaning of. Um I I hate that stuff, and it's been so you know, look, look, I'm really open-minded about music. I'll listen to music of all kinds. I don't we've talked about this before. I don't care if it's pop music, I don't care if it's rock, if it's rap. I love the the rap song Hail Mary by Tupac.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Um I love Biggie Smalls, I love some 90s rap. Um, and that's not because I like I'm not 50 years old. Like I wasn't a teenager in the 90s going to parties listening to that stuff. I was not exposed to it until basically long after it had peaked in its popularity or whatever. But I'm familiar with it, as most of us are, and I I love a lot of that stuff. I think it has like a driving uh groove. It makes you wanna it makes you feel things, it makes you feel emotions, you want to get on your feet or you wanna but I really have felt that this mumble rap stuff is sort of disassoci disassociate. You just kind of disassociate, it's like elevator music. Yep. I don't think it's because I'm old. I genuinely think I have listen, look, I don't think you can dismiss the opinion of someone who really loves music as quickly as you could dismiss the opinion of someone who just says things that they hear or read. This is not I have felt this way, I fe I feel this way, genuinely, that there's very little emotional thrust in that mumble rap type music. I I I don't see a ton of value in it. I mean, if the value of music is is emo I I suppose you could argue there's value in the way it allows people to just space off or space out and not feel anything. Maybe there's a numbing property to that that people have enjoyed. There might be some kind of value to that in a certain context, but like I think that that reaches its, you know, stagnation point or its uh expiration date. I feel that the expiration date of that uh is long past, and I think it's survived long beyond its expiration date, and I'm sick of it. So I made some sort of post about how I don't know, I heard somebody blasting it really loud out of their SUV near me at a stoplight, and for the first time ever, I didn't feel depressed by it. I actually felt sorry for the person listening to it that they were still lingering under the delusion that it made them look cool to be blasting that kind of music loudly out of their car windows. Because I do actually think that not only myself, but as a society, I kind of I don't know what this is, I don't know if you feel this, Kern, but I feel this sense that people are sort of getting over that kind of music. That stuff doesn't really feel that new or that like cool anymore. I I I could be wrong. Yeah, because I've always hated it, but I think in soci I think society in general there's is uh uh there's a sense of that amassing in society in general. That's the sense I get anyway. I uh either way, I made a Facebook post about that, uh not a super long one, but just normal post, just very directly expressing my that sentiment. And a girl was like, a girl basically responded to that saying, I don't understand why, you know, you would have a problem with whoever listening to whatever they enjoy. Now that's a valid point, and I actually think she's probably a healthier person for having that mindset, and so I am happy for her. That being said, um, music is really, and I'm not saying music's not important to that individual, but music is really important to me. I and therefore I do have some strong opinions about it, and I think that it's great to enjoy whatever it is you enjoy, as long as you're able to have the clarity to know if you're actually enjoying it. I think that there the guy blasting that stuff that is so repetitive and formulaic, and we've all heard it and it all sounds the same. The guy blasting that stuff out of his windows for all the world to hear, that suggests to me that he wants to be seen and heard, listening to specifically that, which gives me a sense that maybe he's doing it for partially disingenuous reasons. Maybe it's not all about his internal enjoyment, his personal enjoyment of that kind of music or that song. Maybe there's also, and you know, that's kind of judgmental of me because I've blasted songs out the window because I'm like, I love this so much, I want the world to hear. Like, I I get how that feels. Um, but I don't 100% trust that that was his motivation for doing it that way. I think that sometimes people jump on a certain bandwagon that is trendy because it's trendy. I don't think it's always because they have this really close personal connection with themselves and understanding of themselves and this clarity about what they personally like and or love or hate or dislike. I think sometimes they're getting on some sort of a bandwagon or some sort of a trend. So I I'm skeptical, at the very least, I'm skeptical that that individual was doing it for completely pure reasons of just loving the music and really enjoying that music. And that's his only reason for uh I think that it could be that he just thinks, hey, I'm in a big beefy SUV, a big cool car, I'm I've got my windows down, I I I've I'm I'm blasting the most modern, most trendy kind of music. At least that's what he thinks in his mind. I look pretty cool right now. I might be judging him falsely, but that's like the gut skepticism the skepticism that creeps into me when I experience that. So so she makes a valid point. I guess for me, it's like I I don't think that all people who are listening to music, in whatever context they're listening to it, are always listening to it because they personally genuinely love the song or the music. That's all right.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, I I I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of ways that people listen to music. For sure. Um, I wouldn't say showboarding, but like um it's a music is a social thing, so sometimes yeah, sometimes people try to be social with you when you even when you don't want to be social with them. Uh so like yeah, that's I think that's the version of be some people blasting music from their car.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Um right, and I think that guy was alone, but uh nevertheless it's still what you just Said still applies, which because you know, even though he's not socializing with his own little friends group in his car at the moment, he's socializing with the world, right? He's relating socially with the world by blasting that music out of his car. Um it's a way to do that. I mean, for some people, it's a fashion statement. Look at the music that I like, see how modern and see how with the times I am. I'm I'm not stuck in that old shit. Um, this is me. This is what you need to know about me. So, what the music that you show the world that you're listening to, or or tell the world you're listening to, that can give them an impression about who you are. And maybe sometimes people engineer that a little bit to their perceived advantage. I don't know. Um, or sometimes you're just there's elevator, there's such a thing as elevator music where it's literally serves the purpose of filling the background with with noise or with soothing noise.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yes, that's uh you know that's popular today, like lo-fi yeah, background music. It's crept up a lot, and um, I find people listening to it all the time. Like I know people from work listen to it. I know um like my wife listens to it when she like does her, you know, does her stuff around the house. Like it's like it's just basically it's like background noise. I mean it's the same reason why some people listen to like podcasts, which is basically just like some kind of like you know, background. Of course, podcasts are a little different because it's actually people talking, so that's more of like a like a you know conversation thing, but yeah, they're similar though. That's a valid point, right there. Yeah, yeah. I f I do find like there are similarities over there.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

So they're both because they're both low engagement media, yes, yes. They they don't require much from you. No, no, they don't, especially a long form podcast like ours, for example, or like WTF by Mark Marin or or Joe Rogan's thing, where it's like this three-hour episode or one hour or two hour episode. Yeah, you know, that's not that's not a 10-minute thing that requires your utmost attention to catch every detail. That's a yeah, like you said, that can literally be this kind of soothing background noise, um, hopefully soothing in our case, uh, we would like to think. Um just like the low piece. Yeah, just like the does my voice bring you comfort, uh but yeah, you're right. It is a lot like that lo-fi music. It's it's that kind of low engagement um um listening material.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah, yes, yes, it is. And you like so you know, in that sense, like there are all kinds of different forms of music. I actually would think like a lot of like mumble rap, um, I actually think falls into a bit of like the background music kind of category. Because like, you know, when at least when I see people listening to it, like I don't see them listen to it the way like you said, some you know, people listen to like rap music from the 90s or something where they or or they would listen to MM where they'd be like, oh, check out this, what do you think about this line? Or what do you think about oh that that was so sick how he how he rapped that that whole verse, but like they're just kind of like with the mumble rap thing, it's it's running in the background, they're just like enjoying it, they're just like you know, following the beat, and it's kind of like a like a background thing, you know. So yeah, makes me wonder actually.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Well, one thing it made me realize about myself in how sort of upset I have gotten at times over that kind of music being popular. Upon reflecting on it, what it made me realize about myself is I'm coming at it with some preconceived notions of what music is supposed to be, to be fair. Uh for one thing, or actually let me rephrase that. I'm coming at it with some preconceived notions of what popular music is supposed to be. Because mumble rap is popular music, let's face it, it's been huge, it's been a dominant form of music. Now, if it weren't for that fact, I I don't think I'd be talking about this right now. I don't think I'd really care. Because if people were going to clubs bumping atmospheric ambient music, um that's weird to me. Um and if b if background elevator music is knocking really good bands off the charts or really great artists off the chart or being at the top of the charts of music, of course, then then I'm there's question marks in my head. Of course, you have to then opens the uh the Pan's labyrinth of well, what do those charts mean? And we don't really get into that right now. It's kind of a rabbit hole. But um the but yeah, upon reflecting about how uh uh angry I've gotten at some points about uh the popularity of certain kinds of music, I'm like realizing I'm bringing certain preconceived notions about what popular music is supposed to be or supposed to live up to uh to the table. Um and at least I'm I know I'm a a more aware of that now. And I think that that girl's comment kind of helped me reflect on that a little bit. I'm not saying that I think what I posted was wrong or that I no longer feel that way. I still do, but uh I see some of her point too. Uh you know, it's like I think when I when I'm judging uh popular music, I'm judging it uh first of all, I'm comparing it against other music that has also been popular previously or currently. So there's a comparison going on. That's one form of um judgment I'm bringing to the table. I'm looking at other things and comparing a form of preconceived notion I'm bringing, I think, is I'm is coming from my own personality, which is that I'm passionate, I'm sort of a passionate, kind of intense person in ways. I'm a little bit I have an element of me that's a bit fiery or passionate, I think, is fair to say. And I I have a sense of like drive about things or like intensity, and I guess um I mean I like well I like music that is a bit aspirational. I like music that has an aspirational aspect to it that kind of inspires you or makes you want to go out and change your life or do something or or make something or create something. I I like music that is inspiring or sort of motivated or sort of has a a certain drive to it. Um even if that drive is sort of subliminal or sort of understated within the music, because I think even very stripped down kind of acoustic forms of music can have an underlying sense of like emotional drive or s struggle uh sort of underwritten in the current. Um uh it doesn't you know, but I think that when I listen to music, I think I'm looking for that. And I think that with this mumble rap stuff, it's just not there. So that like bothers me. I I and again, I don't think it would bother me if if it weren't so popular and huge. But when it is, it makes me worry about the world I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Well, I you know, I my my take on it is you also being a musician, um, I think feeds into that fire um that you feel about this. But personally, like me, I think, and I think I would think this is true for a lot of people. At the very least, I think because music is art, and I think what people like uh about certain music is the effort that goes behind it, that there's talent that takes that's needed to make it. Yeah, um, and I think that's kind of like where the you know mumble rap hits the roof because you know there it's like there isn't really that much of talent. Not to say that rap doesn't need talent, rap does. Like, I mean there are things that serious rap, yeah. Yeah, serious rap. Like there's things that like you know, that rappers do that are pretty like amazing in terms of like you know how fast uh how quickly they they can kind of like you know, the speed at which they rap, the the the the lyrics they use, you know, it's kind of like it's poetry, but um, you know, and there's definitely like an art form to it. And I'm actually I'm sure there's a lot of people rap enthusiasts who would agree with you on this matter, but like um, yeah, I think no nobody expected the um the uh the background nature of mumble rap to reach the levels that it has. Uh, and I think that's kind of like that's definitely kind of like what's um feeding into your whole um absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

I I think I have a problem with the fact that no individual song from that genre is all that memorable musically. Um, you know, when you listen to classic songs that we all know and love and remember for 50 or for 20 years or 30 years or 50 years, they have certain things in common, usually, which there might be a beat that's kind of infectious and unforgettable and very unique. There's an element of uniqueness. And I have a problem with the fact that mumble rap is so huge and popular, but there's very little uniqueness to the individual tracks. They all sort of seem to now again. I haven't studied it and immersed myself in that genre as much as many other people probably have. But from what but I think we've all heard it, and I've heard many different songs within that genre. Granted, the ones I hear are probably typically those very mainstream ones, but even within the realm of mainstream popular music from over the decades, the most popular songs usually had to have that element of talent where you kind of were you there's an element of amazement. And again, that goes back to that aspirational factor that I sort of appreciate, which is wow, look what they did. That's kind of amazing. Like I'm impressed. There's an aspect that's impressive. There is nothing about mumble rap that is impressive, like maybe some mumble rap song, like for example, take uh little the guy who died young that people mourn. Um uh little Little Peep. Yeah, Little Peep. He was a white kid, mumble you know, made rap that had that kind of mumble rap quality to the feel or the sound of it. Um Little Peep, uh a friend of mine showed me a couple of his songs, and I looked at the lyrics, and the lyrics were actually pretty cool. So lyrically, at least that one had something going for it. But across the board, most of them don't, and also even Little Peeps stuff, most of this mumble rap stuff, even when it on rare occasion has something of substance to say lyrically or verbally in the words, the lyrics, it almost never is musically interesting or impressive. Like it almost never has a hook or a melody where I go, wow, what an ingenious idea right there. What a wow, how do you come up with that melody? You know, like when you listen to a Beatles song or a when you listen to a song that's a classic or something that's stood the test of time and is sort of in this rotation of top 40 hits over and over on the radio. Any one of those songs you could pick out, literally any one of them, any one of them, whether you like it or hate it, that's subjective. But objectively speaking, there's some musical element of it that is outstanding or interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

And if you're in denial of that, you're lying to yourself. There simply is. That's why they are remembered for as long as they are. So that's a big aspect of the problem I've had with this form of music being so popular.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Now, this is an interesting tangent that you bring up. Now, I'm gonna I'm gonna put a scenario to you just to remove the uh boomer grandpa aspect of this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Yeah, we're not boomers, by the way, everyone. Not boomers. I know you've never met us. That picture of us that you see on Spotify is not from 30 years ago. No, it's not it's not all that long ago. Just a few years ago. I still look basically like that. Yes, and so does he.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah, my okay, and this is um, but but I I I kind of want to do this just as because you brought it up, and I'm curious as a thought expert. Imagine you are somebody who lives in the 90s, or even imagine you're somebody who was around just when the Beatles were getting popular. Um, uh, it might be easier to imagine you were somebody in the 90s who was into music, you know, like when Grunge came out, people didn't immediately take to it. There was it was there was a counterculture that picked it up and then it became famous, and then then you know record labels picked it up because uh we know we know for a fact you told me this that there was a record executive who actually bet that you know uh nevermind was wasn't going to go anywhere, which yeah. In hindsight, bro, what were you thinking? It was like literally one of the most like a monster album, like one of the defining sounds of the 90s. So, you know, since you brought up foreigner as well, now you're somebody in the 90s, you're that's right. I want to know, or you're you're just whatever, you're the same age that you are right now, except in the early 90s, and you're into like foreigner, you're into that kind of music, and suddenly everyone, everywhere you go, people are listening to sounds, music like Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Nirvana. Um, you know, it's like this kind of like grungy, loud kind of music that keeps can be bottom line be depressing, what some people are saying. Uh, you're offended by it because it's like not really in line with what you've been listening to. So, what would your criticism be of those bands?

SPEAKER_03 36:31

That's a great question, Karen. Um, I put in my in a I will attempt to put myself in those shoes uh uh of being there. Um I think if I'm going to conjecture on that, I think that I would have been initially hesitant to adopt it. Uh I would have wanted to I don't think I would have leapt on board right away uh because I never do. I never do. Uh not today, not any time. I'm always mildly skeptical of new things. That's just my hu human my nature, which is totally fine.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

There are uh there are there are early adopters, um and then there are people who you know take their time.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

I'm not an I'm not I'm not an early adopter. I don't think I could call myself that. Um I and I'm fine with that. I think it's maybe a good thing, I don't know. So I would be slow to jump on board with it, but I do think that those would mainly be for superficial reasons, such as production, the way the production sounded, the way the but once you get beyond that surface layer of the texture of the guitars and how grungy and nasty they sound compared to the more smooth sound of the way guitars would have sounded in earlier rock, uh if you're able to look at it somewhat objectively and you appreciate interesting music and the craft that goes into creating music, which I'm gonna just assume that I would in in those hyp that hypothetical situation uh in that time machine. Um I think that although I would be skeptical initially of a new burgeoning trend, I uh and very much a very hyped new trend at the time, by the way, too. Although I might be skeptical of it initially, I do think I would at some point start to see through to the song craft and at least be able to objectively appreciate that there was melodic artistry underneath the grungy noise.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

And whether or not I would love it like I do, I don't know, but I do think I would come around to being able to see the quality that was in the craft or the artistry behind it.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Uh, even if it didn't live up to all of my aesthetic preferences.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Um, so yeah, that's kind of what I think would probably happen.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, I think that's a good point because you know the the thing about um about Nevermind uh as an album was that yes, Smells Like Teen Spirit was big, it was hugely popular, but then I think if I was around at that age, you know, I'm I like I also might be a little averse to it at first. But then once you I would listen to like Come As You Are, I'd be like, hey, you know, this that for me that's really important because it kind of like sh you know it shows like versatility and um it's you know as a classic example. Yeah, so come as you are because it's like it's a it's it's not as like it's not as loud, it's more like melodic, it has like a like a more approachable it it has it has the ability to cross over some um like genre lines, you know, just like nothing else matters with Metallica. It's like they're these songs that kind of loop in a wider range of audience simply because they are you know they have like just like a wider appeal to them, you know. Um and I think come as you are and nothing else matters did exactly that for both like nirvana and um and metallica. Uh so like I think you know, just like as an artist, like as a musician, I think it's great if you have like um just these like songs that show that you're more than just like one sound, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

It's that's a cool, yeah, that's a cool thing to think about. It's yeah, musicians, all musicians.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah, I'm I'm just like I'm not saying this should be gospel, but this is just something that helps me like uh like discover new bands, because like I'll discover them through a song that appeals to me, but then I'll be like, I wonder what other songs they have. And because I already like something of theirs, like my brain is more open to accepting some of their more um, you know, whatever you might call experimental, yeah, louder, you know, whatever you might call it. So um, I mean, yeah, so that's like they needed that gateway song to hook you, yes, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

And then you were more pliant, more willing to follow them into the dark.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yes, gateway song. It's a it's a great way to say it. Uh but yeah, I was thinking of like gateway drug, but like, yeah, this is like this is like uh it's it's the same concept, it's a gateway to uh exploring and learning about something. And I mean, while you were telling me that I looked it up and uh nevermind sold because of that reason, probably sold 30 million copies worldwide. Which is by by today or by at what by what date? It's oh yeah, total sales, total sales, and in the US it sold 11.5 million, uh, but total sales worldwide is about 30 million, and it was um it was only expected to sell 250,000. Oh, a good hearty laugh at those fools. But yeah, you can you can you can just you can't you can just never predict the way things will go. Um because it's it's not it's not it's not a product, it's not like a candy bar. You you can't completely guess how people will react to something. That's right. Um, which is why it becomes hard. I mean, you know, based on what we were just saying, I actually I think uh if I'm not mistaken, the record company wanted to release Come As You Are first, right? Um, because they were like, this is just this is a way more approachable song.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

They they may have that sounds right. They I I do know that Courtney Love, she was recommending the band release In Bloom as their main single at the time. Okay, in Bloom. She really had her money on In Bloom, okay, which uh is a really a great song. Yeah, um In Bloom is it's a kick-ass song, it's great. And I'll never stop thinking every time I hear that offspring song, I think it's called Self Esteem. What's the one that's like um do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do Yeah yeah because that'll never stop thinking that that remind and I think I'm sure a lot of other people have this thought too, but it really reminds me of In Bloom and I'm pretty sure it came after and uh but it's fine, it still he does it in its own way. But I mean that's the thing that that that pattern that Inbloom commits to in the beginning that you know um that that thing is so distinctive and cool, and so when Offspring comes in with its version of that, I it always reminds me of Inbloom.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Um I I always love the build, uh not the build, but like right before the chorus hits the whole the drum.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

the snare uh on the drums like where he like literally like you know um does the whole the whole drum fill and then like it bursts into the chorus it was just great like it it has such like a explosive um entry into the chorus which is what like that i think that's my favorite part about that song yeah yeah I know it is a great chorus that song that song does that song is the whole package like it has a great chorus a great verse a great musical motif or riff thing that it does you know like rhythmic pattern that it does it's you know of course the solo is Kurt Coca is uh Kurt Cobain's or Bert Cocaine's uh typical yeah typical kind of throwaway solo still great and feels great in the context but you know his typical solo of just like I'm the antithesis of Ernie Van Halen yeah it's not gonna be featured on like the 10 best solos by Rig Biotto for sure like definitely not no no but Rick Biotto does praise Kurt Cobain's songwriting all the time yeah yeah yeah yeah songwriting for sure but maybe not the soloing but yeah by the way we love you Rick Biotto we love you Rick Biotto you're so great we love we love I love listening to Rigbiato episodes of what makes the song great because it just like it's it's it's so much fun to listen to a fellow music lover um enjoy a song too it's great so I agree so I want to know what love is by by the band Foreigner that's my that's my uh that's my pick for song of the day uh but uh it makes me feel like I'm standing on the edge of a cliff being whipped around in the wind and I just want to stretch my arms out. I mean there's times that sometimes I'll be driving whether it's day or night and that song comes on the radio and I I I always turn it up and I'm I'm like grateful that it came. That's one thing I do still enjoy about the radio is an element of surprise where it's this endless right shuffle that someone else has created or some algorithm has created or whatever. And so I never know what's coming. I I do enjoy that and there are a couple songs that I still get excited when they uh about when they come on the radio right of course in the shuffle uh like the repetitive shuffle like for example and and there are songs that don't at least where I am they don't play that often uh like I want to know what love is by foreigner I mean it plays it plays semi often but not that often and when it comes through the airwaves and hits me I'm turning that I'm reaching for that volume knob I'm spinning it up turning it up and um I just like I said it gives me a lot of times with a song I'll have a visual uh yeah of course a visual a visualization in my head of what feels like it goes with the song and um for me when that song comes on I just want to stretch my arms wide and high wide out and high up and be like it's almost like this it's a spiritual it it feels so it lifts me it lifts me into some kind of clo emotional cloud I it's like a levitation of some kind and I I get this visualization that I'm like on the edge of this cliff overlooking this vast landscape far below that's just stretches far and wide and is covered in this kind of cloud cover and I'm just like reaching my arms to the heavens and I'm I'm just letting it flow through me. That's like how I feel with that song.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

But but enough about current is there a song you'd like to talk about or a song with like two and a half minutes left sorry I'm a horrible I'm sorry dude I'm a horrible I mean it's my own it's my fault too because we we went off on a tangent um but it's fine because I think a few weeks ago I did a song and you didn't which was like the yeah like I picked like a one of the newer songs which was it's like it's not like a great song but it was a fun song.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Yeah I remember the BGO song yeah totally new brows I still need to listen to that one I have it literally it's a tab on my list of tabs in my computer on my browser and but I I've been meaning to listen to it. I will listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah yeah I would say listen to it with just with no with no like preconceived notions but just just like listen to it as if like you just it just came out on the radio and you're just curren said this was the greatest song ever written the expectations are pretty high um so so what no it's true when curren tells me he's discovered a song I'm like okay I will I will check it out you know like you you introduced me to that song Suicidal Dream by Silver Chair Silva Chair by the way and and that's uh that was your you know that was a Curran pick back in the day and I had I had never heard that song and when you showed it to me I was like this is that's a cool song I used to sing that song in my car all and all the time and yeah I like I like that song it's kind of a little hidden gem I think yeah yeah Silver Chair they're um they're an Australian band and yeah they they I didn't know much about them to be fair like that's the only song of theirs I've ever heard um uh I I and like yeah I don't know much about but I know Australia does have obviously like a rock scene um and there in fact there's like I remember there was this band that was playing online um uh and they keep posting videos of themselves and they're just they're just sitting on a beach it's just like three or four four guys with long hair playing like acoustic guitar acoustic bass and one guy's playing these like these it's like it doesn't even it's like one of those like drums it's not drums but it's like a percussion instrument it looks like just like a like a board of wood but obviously it's something that somebody engineered but like yeah he just plays that and and they cover all these bad they cover all these songs they cover like a lot of grunge songs they even covered like Rammstein and they did they do a pretty good job of it yeah that's cool yeah yeah but so I don't really um I maybe I'll save my song for next time because I gotta like think about that. Yeah no worries absolutely I mean yeah I think anytime we want to talk about a song it's it's fair game because hey it's always fun to talk about music. Oh yeah it's so funny and I think that's one of the things that you know people love about music too is they get to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

I yeah you're that's true one of the the talking about it is one of the most fun aspects of it actually it's funny now you mentioned it.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Yeah I know my last jab at the mumble rap crew which is like yo man listen you like that part where he goes what are they gonna say about each individual song if something truly brings you happiness I shouldn't make fun of it because that is its purpose that's the purpose of music like you if you feel happiness when you play it listen to it that's group great do it love it enjoy it you know that's that's all that matters yeah and really try to get in try to get in touch with the truth of that you know try to really ask yourself do I personally actually like this like as you're listening to Bob Dylan's voice do I actually think this is a good singer?

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly or if a a barnyard rooster somebody just leave their microphone inside their their bar all night I can't even tell you how many times Rolling Stones is pretty much like you know written an ode to Bob yeah yeah even though Rolling Stone there are many great iconic albums and bands that were trashed by Rolling Stone when they first came out or first released like I don't think Rolling Stone didn't like Nevermind when it first came out it was like very it was lukewarm about it. But of course if you were to ask any of the staff there now oh Rolling Stone is the biggest Nevermind fan that ever you know that ever walked the face of the art calm down Charlie that's that same guy who thought it would sell 2500 copies. Now he's walking around with a Nirvana t-shirt yeah probably making his kids listen to it as or his kid listens to it and he's like I passed on that oh man yeah knowing that guy I don't know if he's ready to admit that yet but no maybe he is I don't know yeah he probably maybe phrases it in a way that praises himself I made sure they found the right buyer yeah yeah but you know to be fair like I said before it's really hard with art you don't know what's gonna like you know appeal to people or not it's very hard to predict these things. Yeah um it really is you know it really is uh yeah especially in the the commercial realm you know there there are things that cross over that are that are good it's happened many times but it doesn't always happen no and uh you you don't know for sure until it it's really and also a lot of things don't get the marketing thrust that they deserve uh yeah that's a big part of it too yeah yeah so it's you you yeah it's true you never know I I wanted to how much time do you have left there Karen um I think we should probably wrap up over here because I gotta yeah I I have one more little thing I'd like to share but I want to open the table to you first is if if there's anything you want to share. And no please I mean that genuinely I don't want you to feel like rushed and if we run out of time and I can't share whatever bullshit I want to share that's totally okay. There's always next episode so no no go ahead. This is so so I wrote a little poem. I just wrote it on my phone in the notes section of my phone where I write most things. This one's called um well actually it doesn't I okay I don't like that name it doesn't have a name okay um allow me to share a quick story of woe. I was driving by the complex where Randy's donuts is near the Burbank airport I decided you know what yeah I do want a donut right now I'm going I drove into the complex I parked and got out of my car walked over to Randy's it was closed I walked sadly away this is a story about disappointment I love donuts I know yeah and it's really sad when you want something and you just can't get it because of you know circumstances beyond your control yeah those are so anyway well uh are are we out of time for the day yeah how are you doing I'm gonna bring it on home with our usual nice well we thank you again for joining us for another episode Burgatti Chronicles Burgati yeah always always a good time um so thank you guys for stopping in we'll see you again next time see you next time guys have a great weekend