Episode 9: Rest & Recovery

When did rest become something you have to earn?

In this episode, we're talking about the one thing most of us are genuinely not doing well: resting. Not stopping. Not collapsing. Actually restoring. We get into the guilt that sits underneath most people's relationship with rest, the ADHD boom-bust cycle that keeps so many of us in a permanent pattern of sprint and crash, and what it actually looks like to build recovery into your life before you need a holiday to survive it.

We also ask the uncomfortable question about AI: now that technology can do more of the work, are we actually resting with the time we save — or just quietly raising the bar for what enough looks like?

This episode covers:

• The difference between stopping and resting — and why most of what we call rest doesn't actually restore us
• Rest guilt in all its forms: the feeling that you haven't earned it, that you should be doing more, or that even sitting still isn't good enough
• The ADHD boom-bust pattern — running until you can't, then stopping entirely — and what small release valves look like instead
• Yutori: the Japanese concept of living with spaciousness, and why it's almost impossible to build into a Tuesday
• Andy's emotional audit — a four-quadrant framework for figuring out whether you're performing, burning out, disengaging, or actually recovering (and why you can't skip straight back to the first one)
• The AI efficiency question: if technology saves you four hours, what will you actually do with them?

Rest doesn't have to be still. It just has to work. This episode will help you figure out what that actually looks like for you.

Listen now and grab your journal 🧶

We share journalling prompts after every episode — sign up to get them straight to your inbox: substack.com/@untanglinglifepod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hi and welcome to the Untangling Life Podcast. I'm your co-host Andy Ayim and I'm joined by the lovely Patty Willis.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

And a big theme for us is rest and recovery for this episode. So I think we can unpack that more.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Alright, so that's what we're gonna focus on today. We're gonna start as usual with our street interviews.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

How do you rest and relax? I go to the gym or for a walk in the peaks. I get out in nature, breathing some fresh air among the trees.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

I'm a mum of three. I don't. No surprise really with some of the themes that we're hearing there, isn't it? And I think as soon as I thought about this topic of rest and recovery, the first thing I thought was it depends what I need to rest from.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Yeah, so you can either feel really rested and rejuvenated going into the new year, or you can feel really shattered. And the other day I was talking to a founder who had scaled their business and mentioned that they would go into their VC to ask for like a professional search. Can we get a professional CEO in? I'm burnt out, I'm tired of the business. And the VC advised the founder to just take a month off work. They went on holiday, came back, and they're like, no, I actually can cancel the search. I feel really rejuvenated. I feel like I and they were just getting burnt out. And sometimes when I come back from a holiday, I feel like it was so busy. Yeah. Sometimes with the kids, with activities, with whatnot, I come back tired and like I just need a day or a day or two break.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

I think that there's so much in there I want to pick up on. So and one thing that it really ties in to me is this idea that we often have that I shouldn't need to rest from the good stuff. Because to your point, actually, even on a holiday, I might come back and be exhausted. I did this. So since we last recorded, I I went on my Japan trip, I had my solo travel time. And honestly, the truth is I got to the end of the trip. It was the most amazing trip. I got to the end of the trip and I was crying in my hotel room. And a lot of that was kind of emotional processing, but also I had just overdone it. I had packed the trip so full. By the end of the trip, I was moving every single night. I was racing around, kind of trying to see everything in 10 days, which was never achievable. And so I got back and I was exhausted, but I felt like, how can I be exhausted? I've just had this amazing trip. And the other thing you touched on is the the passion for what you're doing. And we have a wonderful friend who introduces Marcus Exal, who often does talk about this idea that if you're doing what you love, you don't, it doesn't burn you out, you don't need rest. But I've often felt the opposite way, which is it's easier, I think, to in some ways burn out doing what you love because there's so much stimulation that you keep running longer and then you you wind down.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I feel like we're touching here on like sometimes we feel guilty having to rest.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

And like I recently moved home, moved out of a home, and my new home, I need to kind of like rip it out, guy it out. And I was doing work with with my wife a few weekends ago, and I went into the next week feeling shattered and exhausted. And a part of me was like, should I have just rested that weekend? But then a part of me was like, no, but I want to get on with things. I want I felt guilty. I would have felt guilty if I had rested instead of going to get on with that work, you know. And even though it's not work, work, yeah, it's still work, it's still like exhausting, it's still tiring doing that type of work. So I remember going into that work that week, feeling shattered. I think I got a flu that week. I had like a 500-mile drive to northern Wales and back that week, and I just felt like this is too much stacked in a week.

SPEAKER_04 4:01

There's so much I want to pick up on there and ask you about. One thing that comes to mind, also, so so A, I'm really curious how you're planning to rest in this period because you are going into this long renovation of a home. And so I know friends who've done it, and it is very awe-consuming because we we ran a whole episode on environment, right? Yeah. Where you are shapes your environment. The best advice actually, my friend gave me if I ever choose to renovate a home, she said, do one room well first. So you have a space that feels done. So you're not every space doesn't feel like a demolition zone.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, you gave me that advice actually. Yeah, and I remember it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Okay. Props to Ellen Wood, my wonderful friend, who gave that advice.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

It's great advice.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

But so so one two questions because I think they might interconnect. One, how are you thinking about rest in that period where I guess there's a balance of it's also not incredibly restful to sit and do nothing because then your brain is actually wanting to make progress.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

And then, secondly, related to that, you're a parent with two young kids. How does that change how you rest? You can take them as separate questions or they can intermingle, but I think it's not both.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

I think the first thing is that I'm I'm thinking about rest and recovery beyond sleep. I think that is one form of rest. Getting to bed at a decent time, waking up at a decent time.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

Andy, I have a I have a listener uh feedback for you actually. Someone got very upset with us on a previous episode because you were telling them how important sleep is, and it's the one non-negotiable. And uh my wonderful godson uh was not negotiating on his inability to sleep at the time. She was like, Andy, what do you mean it's a non-negotiable? I can't negotiate with a screaming five-month-old, six-month-old. Um, so you're right, it is very important, but but also sometimes hard.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

It is sometimes hard, you know. But sometimes the choice is between hard and hard, we don't actually have an easy way out.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Um, but the reason that I want to look beyond sleep, um, because I think that's the obvious that people go to. Um, but there's other forms of rest and recovery that I really appreciate. So, like on that drive back from Wales, there were certain types of music I was listening to that was really restful.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

You know, that was really putting me in a good mood, that made me enjoy the journey back. You know, we were mentioning Olivia Dean earlier today, for example. We're not gonna get into her now, but you know, like there's certain feel-good music that just helps with mood.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Um, another thing that I love is I just spending time swimming and in the sauna. That's like a switch off for me. That's not a strenuous activity.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

And that again just allows me to unravel, to slow down, to just let my mind wander. And the thing I love about it, I think, is also because I haven't got my smartphone, I haven't got any headphones. So it's just it's just me and thoughts and nothingness, you know, and and I do enjoy times like that. I think walking does the same thing for me sometimes as well, especially in natural, beautiful um environments. Um so I feel like these are a few different forms of of recovery for me in those times of where I feel like I need rest. And what I'm trying to do now is actually like less but often, um, few but often. So even if it's 20 minutes here, 30 minutes there, but I'm doing that regularly across my week rather than feeling like I'm getting so burnt out or like the pressure cooker's rising so much, I just need a massive holiday or an escape. No, I just want little small interventions in between so it doesn't, it doesn't add up. I'm alleviating that pressure every so often.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Do you feel that you need to earn rest? Because what I'm hearing that that that I'm gonna stop it before the pressure builds. I find really hard, I tend to be in these big periods of boom and bust where I'm running, running, running, and so when I stop, I stop because I've almost just used all my momentum, and then I'm I'm almost in forced rest.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

But I struggle to I struggle to give it to myself along the way, yeah. Unless I've been really busy, I almost feel like I'm gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

I feel like this is part of that guilt though, because I feel like after we do delivery, I feel like we're both more intentional about resting. It's like our cup is empty, there's nothing to pour from.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

So it's almost like easy to rest after we've delivered like workshops and stuff. But actually, if we haven't got anything booked in the calendar, I think the guilt sits with us that we need to do business development, or we need to be doing some work, we need to be doing something with this idle time. It feels like idle time. Um, but you know, you just came up from Japan and I learned a Japanese phrase recently called Yutori, and it stands for living with spaciousness, and it's allowing for spaciousness in your life and in your days. And I'm trying to be really intentional and just living with more space.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

What's coming up for you in trying to do that? Because I hear that and think, I love that idea, but I I struggle to map that to my own life.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

So what's coming up for you as you're trying to do that?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Um, if I'm working from home, I'm intentionally gonna make sure that it's a few hours where I have no meetings, and I'm gonna switch off and watch anime or something. Something completely separate to my work, complete switch off. This is not about ideation, it's not about productivity, it's just about goofing off and just just enjoying some time alone. And and the time alone for me, I think, matters when I'm at home because I'm usually there with my two kids and my wife. So to be actually alone at home, yeah, I want to make the most of that.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

And and and does that feel uncomplicated to you? Because I feel like I try to be that. And I said to a friend actually two days ago, it was sunny, and we're in February, very early February. So sun is not easy to come by. And I'm I'm feeling the SAD creeping back in after my nice sunny Miami trip. And so I'm thinking, I want to enjoy this, but also I had just taken off uh an extra long weekend because my brother was over from Bermuda, and I find that really easy to be like, yeah, I'm gonna take the time. Exactly. It's like obvious to me that there's nothing else I'd rather do. But then I came back into the week, it had been a really busy weekend. I'd actually kind of run between doing stuff pretty constantly. I'd got back from Miami the week before, I'd gone straight in, and I still found it hard to justify because in my head I'm like, well, I've just taken time off. How can I justify this?

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

So does that is that something you've had to learn or unlearn, or is that just easy for you that you can give yourself permission to go and watch anime?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

So so just just out of context, I want to ask you a question first. Um, so do you find it hard? Do you find it hard to be able to take a break like I do to watch anime or to watch one of your favourite shows? Do you feel like you defer that kind of thing to after work hours or the weekend?

SPEAKER_04 10:54

You most of the time, yeah. And I get I go through periods where for some reason I can give myself permission to do it, particularly where it's been a really busy chunk.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

But I think I think in the day-to-day, and we're talking from a place of ridiculous privilege in the sense that we both work for ourselves. So we can just be like, I'm gonna take a break and walk down. There's lots of people listening to be like, I mean, companies where this is lots of people. I think my boss would be mad. And and just to be clear, we're not advising this to companies we work with as the the necessary de facto. But yes, I find what do I find? I think I sometimes have these narratives, and I think actually a lot of them are connected into some of the things that I built up for a long time not knowing I had ADHD. So I think there is a big narrative in my head that I'm inherently lazy, and some of that comes from I think ADHD, there is this tendency to run in this boom and bust, and when you stop, you stop. And there's a bit of a standing joke in the ADHD community that the worst thing you can ever do is like if you're trying to achieve something, don't sit down because you won't restart. Or I find I'm either that or I'm the person who can't sit down because as soon as I sit down, I once drove someone completely nuts because we were trying to have a nice evening together, and every time I'd sit down, I'd be like, Oh, I'm just gonna quickly water that plant. Oh, I've just noticed that, or even just I can't sit and rest. Yeah, and when I do sit and rest, I am that person who sits there thinking, how could I rest more productively? I'm not resting well enough. This is not optimised rest. My mind is constant, there is never not the idea that there is ever silence in my brain, I don't understand how people come to the city.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

So do you have any methods for opening and closing the door on work? Like Yes, more so now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

So for the first time in a long time, I actually have a study. So that is life-changing because I've worked from home for six years, yeah, and now have it like it is a separate space. I can leave my laptop in there. I don't even see my laptop when I'm relaxing in the evening. So that's one really big thing. Um I'm also trying to keep my space neater because I think often that we talked about this when work is busy. I tend to let my space explode into messiness. Suitcases are unpacked, clothes that are ready for work the next day are out, but everywhere. I've kind of got ready for something in a rush.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

So it's you think that's part of a creative expression, like like almost like the artist, the artist's room. There's there's it goes a bit too far.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

You're talking about clothes and yeah, there's there's this this reel that keeps being shown to me because I always engage with anything that's about ADHD on Instagram, so it knows. And it's this idea of I'm scared to take ADHD meds because I don't want to lose my sparkle. And then it's just got these photos and it says the sparkle in question, and it's got a photo of like a room that's just exploded everywhere, unwashed dishes. And I'm like, yeah, that's me. That's a sparkle I don't want to lose.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I actually find washing dishes and stuff therapeutic as well.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Andy, come around anytime.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

No, it's a it's a switch. Like I've had dishwashers for years, I never use them. It's part of switching off for me. Sometimes I'm watching anime while I'm doing the dishes as well.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Yeah, no, this is not, this is not my I tend to, if I'm really, really stressed, I will clean as a stress mechanic because I just feel out of control. I need to control something. But it takes a lot of stress for me to get to that level.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

If I'm really, really stressed, I watch um nature documentaries like David Attenborough and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

I love David Attenborough.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

That just takes me to another place.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

But I struggle to I think this is another thing I I find difficult, and I don't know. I'm actually looking into it at the moment because I can't quite work out what is our dopamine addiction. And dopamine addiction tends to be worse than people with ADHD because we're not great at producing it in the right way, and so we tend to get much more dopamine addicted. But I struggle, another big issue I have with rest and recovery is I struggle to just sit and do one thing. So if I'm sitting watching TV, I'm gonna be also playing games on my phone.

unknown 15:03

Oh really?

SPEAKER_04 15:04

I'm gonna be taxi constantly, unless I'm with someone. So luckily, my ex kind of trained it out of me that like if we're sat together watching something and I'm on my phone. That's a bit rude. Yeah, he's like, it doesn't I'm I'm taking the time to be present and spend time with you, even if we're watching TV, it's so we can talk about it and have a discussion and pause it.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

If you're alone now, you would you play a game.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

So now I live alone again. I'm constantly like I don't watch TV ever with full focus. And I I want to train that out because I think I'm not again, I I think I'm not resting right, is a theme for me in general. But I do think there's something in the the only time I I give my full attention to something like that is often reading, which is why I love reading. Yeah. Because it's great for me because I'm in it, yeah, and and I put some music on in the background and I try and move my phone away from me. But but I think there is this struggle, and I think it's interesting potentially because we're in we're in such different like life stages, right? You're trying to rest around two kids who are super young, renovating a house. In theory, I'm like, well, not in theory, in practice, I'm living, you know, the kind of young, free, and can do whatever I want to rest. I have full agency. My I'm driving my friends slightly crazy because like they'll call me and you know, love you, my friends. Um, but they'll call me and they'll be like, what are you up to? I'm like, I'll just go for another facial.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

They're like, I hate you.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

So in in lots of ways, I have all this opportunity to rest because I have much more free time, have disposable income because I'm alone and not paying.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I think I was touching on with like sauna and stuff, is like it's like filling my cup up again, that recovery, that self-care, like you said, facials. And I think all of that matters. It's like, how do I perform at my best? All of these things matter in order for me to perform at my best.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

I agree. And I think maybe sometimes with self-care, we put it into this bucket where it has to look like stillness, quiet, rest. And I think that's sometimes where I struggle. Yeah. Because then it's easier to do it if I'm if I go and have a facial, I go and have a massage, like it's easy, I can switch off, it's great. But actually I sometimes struggle with the smaller ways that you can do it to your point in a day-to-day. So so often what happens is the stress builds up, the tension builds up, and then I need this release. Yeah. So I'll go and get a massage because my shoulders are at my ears, and it's actually quite painful.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

But or I get a facial because I've got some class plus credits, normally because I haven't exercised because I've been traveling.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Do you think it's the cost of high performance? Like a high performance athlete, a high performance person at work.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

I think high performance people, I'm thinking of the athletes, are so much better than I am at doing what you're talking about, which is not letting the pressure valve get too high.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

And so I think that there is this big question mark for me. Going into this nice period, I haven't got any big travel booked for a few months, having just been to uh, you know, I think in in the space of eight weeks I went to Edinburgh, Ghana, Japan, uh Miami, you know, via Ireland, France, and then Miami. So six countries in about eight weeks. No, maybe ten weeks.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

So do you feel now after just sharing that that this is a state in a stage of recovery and rest for you?

SPEAKER_04 18:28

I I really do. I I keep using this analogy, but I feel slightly like I've got my feet back underneath me.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Spent a long time living out of a suitcase, all these little things that just they're lovely. And and it was exactly what I needed. This real stage of lots of personal, like we talked about on the previous episode, lots of alone time, which for me couldn't feel restful before.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Has I've I'm finding ways to make that restful again and finding ways to play with it. But it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Are there any hobbies like like when you're talking, I was thinking, yeah, gaming's another way that I switch off gaming with the family. Like we we got so many multiplayer games, and we can spend hours doing that. Mario Party, Mario Kart, Zelda, Legend of Zelda, so many games.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Um but that's another way that I love switching off and I really enjoy like just gaming. And we were saying the other day we haven't brought our console out since we've moved into our temporary accommodation.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

I actually remember as well you were saying in a previous episode when we were talking about transition periods, and you were talking about maybe when you moved into temporary accommodation, making it fun with things like board games. Yeah. So that's obviously a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Oh, yeah. It's time, Andy. 100% is time.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

I love that. Yeah, no, I I love a game. Um, I have a a Switch, I love to play my Switch.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Uh, but I again I've got games on your phone as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 19:49

Well, the games on my phone are just really mindless. And actually, yeah. Okay, let's pick up on this because I feel like this is a big theme. Should rest be mindless? And what I mean by that is is it about clearing your head, or is it about bringing in inspiration, thinking deeply? How do you see that balance?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

I feel like the two the two can be one and the same. Like me switching off in the sauna and my mind wandering, a part of that mind wandering might even go and spark a new idea. But I wasn't intentionally going trying to go down that path, it just it just led me there. Or because I switched off so much, when I switched back on, it's like, oh, renewed thinking. All right, I'm seeing this from a different vantage point. A good example is like last year I started writing my book and I paused for months. But now when I've reread what I've written, I've got new ideas about what to write going forward. In fact, I've got a paradox of choice now where it's like I could take this down two different, two completely different paths, you know. So I feel like the break did me good, and that break lasted months. And I could have been harsh on myself, like, oh, I failed, I didn't finish the book, I just wrote four chapters. But instead, I was like, no, this is a part of the process, and it's my process, and this is the way I work.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Did you have to actively do that or was that natural for you?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

In terms of taking the break?

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Well, both in terms of taking the break and then not beating yourself up for taking time.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

No, my initial reaction was beating myself up. Like, why did I stop? I'm losing momentum. If I just carried on, I would have finished it by now. But then I looked back and like, but I would have finished it in a completely different place to where my mind is at now.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Why did you stop? What made you think I need the rest recovery?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Two things made me stop. One I felt like I was starting to use like AI for reviewing my grammar and my flow. And and I was and then I started to take a step back and be like, actually, how much of this do I want to use AI to review, or do I just want my natural language and mistakes and hiccups throughout the whole book first before I edit and review? Um, and the second thing is I was like, do I want to write more of a life memoir around Andy's journey to inspire others, or do I want to write A very thematic book, whether it's like a how to win friends and influence people type of book or uh you know a managers-related book because I do a lot of work with managers, and I had to I had to sit on that and think about that first. And the answer's probably like I want to write probably two books, but let me start with one and then get onto the other. Yeah. But it took me time to process that.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Okay, and then so then that led to a break, and then in that break, you're thinking, I'm losing momentum. So how did you get out of that to genuinely allow? Because I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

And then to get back momentum.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

No, not even that, because I think I'm curious about that as well, because you are now you have no rebellion.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Like, how do I shake it off?

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Because I think almost everyone will have had this experience where you go on holiday and you genuinely switch off, and particularly if the hot holiday is long enough, yeah, your brain then starts to fizz. I well, that's what I experienced.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Do you know what helped me?

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I asked Grace, my colleague. Yeah, um, I asked her to review the first like introduction and chapter, and her she was so gassed and her feedback, it lit me up. Her what she said back to me when she read it made me think, oh my gosh, yeah, I need to get back onto this. And then I bounced it off Lynette, and I was like, like, what do you think of this? And it's like, yeah, Andy, you need to talk about like relationships and what relationships have led to in your life and like the people you've connected with. And and I think the feedback from those two just got me back motivated and on fire. It was the right people to actually bounce it off.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

And so in that in-between bit, I love that. And I want to come back to that kind of rebuilding afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

I it felt like you know, when a car needs a jump start, yeah, yeah. That was what jump start.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

So in that in-between bit, when you you so you have like the first bit, you feel uh like I've kind of ground to a halt, but I don't want to be halted.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

But then you talked about actually having that break actually gave you the time you needed.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

And then we get to the end bit where you need to jump start again. Like, how do you how did you get yourself out of that? Did you call it stinking thinking?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah. I love that phrase. Oh, I've stopped writing the book. Why have I failed? What am I doing?

SPEAKER_04 24:05

So, how was there a period before you showed it to Lynette and Grace that actually I was doing nothing?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

And and you were okay with that? No, okay, but I was so distracted by work.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Like the book is not something that I'm doing for monetary purposes or to make money, whereas with work, it's like, okay, it's always easy to prioritize work. Yeah, yeah, because there's always work to do. Um, but then in my in my notion, in my work, I've got it pinned. So I'm it I always see a little reminder, and I'm like, oh, let me not go into that. Let me not go into that file, into that folder, let me just leave it there. But actually, having it pinned was really helpful because it is a forcing function to be like, yeah, the priority is always a priority, you've got to get back to it.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

And I love that you then it was we talked a lot about the kind of role of people and environment. So you've got the environmental trigger and then the people, the community to then bring you back to it. Yeah, there is a connection in my brain. You talked about AI actually kind of putting you off in the process.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah, I want to discuss this a little bit. And we're gonna we're still staying on theme, by the way, with rest and recovery. But I want to I want to get your opinions on this after. So you ask me your question, and I'm gonna shoot something at you.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

So AI, I feel, and this is very real this week, has the potential to take a ton of work off everyone's plates. Also, potentially, it has the potential to take our plates, but let's be optimistic for a second and say it's gonna be this great enabler. And particularly, I think I guess where I see the world going more and more is I do think, particularly for people who are either do able to do a side hustle alongside their job, or for people who are able to be self-employed or have their own company, there is increasingly gonna be this choice. AI could allow us to do much more with less, or it could allow us to do the same we were doing before with less.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

And the challenge I have to this week I've been playing a lot with Claude, which is Anthropic AI. Yeah, so interestingly, if you haven't heard of it, I think it's it's getting very big in the tech space. Most people we know are using it increasingly as they go to. My uh assistant begged me for us to use it as a company. I was like, oh, we're already paying for a chat to be two. Let's anyway. Yeah, yeah, I've I've sought to uh by the next step, we'll be on something new, but for now it's launch lemonade in at the moment. Oh, we love launch lemonade. So launch lemonade for anyone who like us likes to use multiple, allows you to build specific agents that have one task, and then behind it you can change what the LLM is so you can pick the best LM for the task. This is our friend startup, Shen. Neither of us have shares, I don't think. Do you have shares? No, so we're just shouting it because we we love it and we're both paid users. Um, so not sponsor content, just uh genuine fans. But with using all of these tools and building agents, and we have a load of agents on Launch Lemonade actually that we use. And then I'm also using Claude much more in my day-to-day. Obviously, there's still a huge amount of checking things, but I'm very conscious, and we can get into this, we're gonna do a whole episode about what skills outlast AI, what skills are always gonna be needed. So, where are you adding value on top? We'll get into that separately. But my question this week has been: there have been lots of times where I've used Claude, and it's genuinely meant I could do a task in like a fifth of the time. Do I then use that four-fifths of the time? That's what I was gonna ask you to go and do more work, more business development, more or do I rest? What do I do, Andy? Give me the answer. Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I was gonna ask you exactly the same question. Like, if it's if it's now made you more efficient and you've got this spare capacity, do you use that capacity to then automatically do other work? Which I think is probably both for our default. That's my default, 100%. If we're being honest, versus versus work. And even when you're when you when you were leading up to the question, I thought to myself, would I feel guilty if I took a nap during the day?

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Interesting. Would you?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

A little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:05

What would that what would be you'd be thinking with that girl?

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Need to be working.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

If I was employed, like I said, the luxury of what we're doing, would I do that?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Um, but then my other line of thinking was, but because I'm working for myself, I can actually work any hour of the day, any hour of the day that I want. And if I'm more productive between 11 and 2am, which I'm not, um, then I've got to work around that and maybe napping during the day is part of that. Whereas I'm more of a morning person and I love like 5am time and onwards.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

But I can't really use that time because of kids and where we're living right now and whatnot. Um, but if I napped during the day, I feel guilty. But I wouldn't shy away from napping if I genuinely felt exhausted, especially if I had to do something like driving.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

So I actually took a nap yesterday. No, day before. Yesterday. We're pretending I don't have concussion and keep having these headaches. It's fine. By the next episode, I'm gonna be totally fine. But I actually just got to the point where I was like, I'm just gonna sleep this off. I'm just like, I'm done. If any doctors listen to it. Did you set an alarm?

SPEAKER_00 29:01

We just woke up naturally when it was.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

I actually just went to sleep. I was like, it was like four o'clock. I was like, I'm actually just gonna be done with the day, I'm gonna have a nap and wake up and see and feel better.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

But I loved that. And and how did you feel when you woke up?

SPEAKER_04 29:13

I just did feel much better.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Good.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

And then I had the evening off, it didn't work.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Good. And you didn't feel guilty.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Yeah, and and I think the other thing is but I but I think the tricky thing is like we probably work, you know, 60 plus hours weeks, most weeks between events in the evening, all of the travel. Often we feel that we need to work. Um I'm I'm normally, you know, if I'm in an airport, I'm sat working in the airport, yeah, you know, often on a plane. I'm trying I try and switch off, but often I'm I I mean I had a nightmare on my flight to Miami where I was trying to work on the plane and the Wi-Fi was so slow that I'd like to load a task, read my book for a minute, load a task, read my book for a minute. I was driving mad.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, I couldn't work on a plane, but yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

But but I feel like we we're constantly trying to fit work in.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, wherever we can.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm in the evenings. I'm still posting stuff on Instagram, I'm still on LinkedIn, I'm still on my emails. I feel like the boundaries are so blurred, and this is for everyone, right? Whether you have your own business or not, all of the tools are on our devices. It's really hard to get that separation, and so I think it just creeps into our our minds. Our mindset is to this AI question: I should always be maximizing my output, and that means I yes, I can do something more efficiently, but then I'm gonna do even more, more, more. And there is this book I love called Company of One. Yeah, I think I've talked to you about it before. And it's this idea of what is enough.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

So not just hiring more people to build the company, not just getting more clients to get more revenue, but realizing what is the life I want to lead and therefore what is enough income hours to do that and then stop.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I feel like I've defined that for myself actually. And um, there's another book that that complements what you just said called Essentialism. Oh you're Greg McCaughey.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

I feel like we might have had this exact discussion on another episode of the podcast. Because we have no one hate us.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Um but but focusing on less but better.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

And I've been trying to implement that, but it can still lead you down the road of I still want to do more, I just want to do it less but better. So you've got to be careful with it. What is that?

SPEAKER_04 31:17

What's that book? Um, seven-hour work week, nine-hour work week?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

How many hours? Four-hour work, four-hour work.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Four hours.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

But but actually, the book is more about the logic rather than the actual strict just work four hours. Um, but less but better has helped me with like saying no to a lot more. Can I pick your brain in meetings and I have more space in my diary? And that space is used for thinking, researching, reading, creativity, and I make better decisions because I have that space in my calendar. You know, I the challenge I have is politics switching back to back in meetings.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

I suspect, listeners tell me if I'm wrong. I suspect that most people listening, because as I listen, I I intuitively know you're so right. I know that when I sit and take a reading break in the day, and I've done these things and I know they make me better.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

It's easy to say, hard to do. So hard to do. But you know, I think there's certain things and careers that can get us into different habits. And there's definitely like my career experiences in management, consulting, products management, and venture capital got me into researching and reading. So it's become a part of like how I learn about new technology, like the future of the world, the economy, where things are going. I I have to, I'm just used to that habit of apportioning time to research and read. And it's part of work, you know. Whereas I think some people might feel guilty doing it because they feel like they need to be working. But for me, that is a part of work because that shapes my mind. The stories that I share, the data that I share, it comes from that time. And you know, I let I listened to uh an interview recently with Mark Andreessen, a venture capitalist, and he was talking about you know using 20 hours plus a week on just reading and researching and thinking. Um, but you have to when you're making decisions about money and investing in the future.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

I think I'm wondering what psych therapy, these conversations. I'm wondering if I'm just output obsessed. Because as as I'm listening, I I love reading. And particularly I actually love reading non-fiction because there is no output as my switch off.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Disappear in the world. But in most of what I'm doing, even though I know it would be infinitely beneficial to give more time to that reading, I'm trying at the moment to give more time to playing with AI, but often for me it is with an output in mind. So I'm playing with AI, but I'm trying to use it to build automations and something tangible. And I think we see this all the time in the work we do with founders, particularly. I I want to build something, I want to see something. I don't want to go and just have conversations with customers because that feels slow and frustrating. I want to launch. And I think in my rest, even I see that pattern. The things that I often do that I find easier is about like there's an output. You know, I want to go and get a massage because I can literally watch my shoulders drop three inches afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

But then where do you where do you seek inspiration from?

SPEAKER_04 34:23

I don't know if I seek inspiration enough, you know, actively.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I don't think like were you inspired when you're going around Japan? What inspired you?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Yeah, I found Japan incredibly inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

In what ways can you share?

SPEAKER_04 34:36

So I think Japan I found very inspiring from a user experience design perspective because just so many experiences are either have moments of joy that are completely unexpected but delightful. So little things like I do have a question about the accessibility of this, about how it works for people who are um blind, but I'm hoping they have thought about this. But on traffic lights in Japan, the sound is actually a particular bird call. So rather than having this like beeping noise, you have this bird call, which makes cities really pleasant. I'm hoping that there aren't those birds locally so it's not confusing for anyone who has visual impairment because that would be a design flaw. But little things like that, or little things like how you go into a you know, why 7-Elevens are so great in Japan as an experience. They've you can make a smoothie in a store for£1.50 and it's a delicious smoothie, but they've really thought about the steps to make it simple and straightforward. They've thought about every step is clear and it's easy to follow, and and so I found that very inspiring for the kind of product design for user experience.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Product design perspective. But I also just found it incredibly beautiful. And so as a country, you kind of have this amazing technical brilliance and design brilliance and experience brilliance, but then you also just have this, it's just outrageously beautiful. And so a lot of that for me, and you know, some of that's in the history of the architecture. The pagodas are stunning. You you're just kind of constantly walking around looking at beautiful buildings, but also the nature is I mean, and I was lucky we got the end of the kind of red leaf season, so everyone walking. I mean, my my camera roll is just full of. I think I said before I went I wanted to try and take more photos. Yeah, and I loved it. That was I found that so joyful to be walking around with my camera, not just on my phone. That was really restful. And I think one of the things that has come up for me as a big theme came from my ADHD coaches, this idea of, and we talked about in a previous episode, rest doesn't have to be still.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

But but this is why I feel like what I'd asked that question and I saw you light up and I saw how much you shared. And all I was thinking is how can Hattie bottle up some Japan in her week here? Like, how can she seek inspiration, get inspired, you know, you new user experience? How can she get a little bit of that here? And I don't know if watching certain videos or doing certain research or going certain places can replicate that, but how do you bottle up some of that joy in a in your week here?

SPEAKER_04 37:20

I think for me the challenge is how to rest, not rot. Because often I default to dead time, going to the sofa, put something on telly, play my game. And I don't feel necessarily better for that process. And I do it most evenings that I've got spare time. I'm like, switch off mindless, done. But actually, the things that make me feel more rested when I'm taking a proper chunk might be going and wandering around a gallery. I loved doing that in Japan. I live in London. Where was the last time I went to a gallery? Embarrassing. But I made a whole long diversion in Japan to go and do that because I thought I'll love it, and I did.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

And I think that's really, really critical that we don't, when we're thinking about rest and recovery, A, I think there is this whole theme of how do we give ourselves permission? I think that underlies a lot of what we've spoken about. But B, how do we maybe redefine it so that we're not just looking for what's going to restore my energy in the sense that I'm doing nothing, but actually what's going to restore to your point inspiration?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. And I it's weird because I'm now thinking quite output focused. And a lot of the times when I do my research or creativity, you're just wondering, it leads to stories that I didn't use in work. 100%. And like when I went to Wells, I used this new framework that I made up that came from this idle time called an emotional audit for teams. Yeah. And it was all these public service leaders, and I had like four quadrants, and I was like, um on one axis, it was like high energy, low energy. On the other axis, it was connected, disconnected.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

High energy, low energy, connected, disconnected. And in zone one, which was like high energy and connected, um, I said that people felt really motivated, energized, collaborative, creative, and this is where people are personally driven to perform. In zone two, people felt um quite exhausted, like uh drained. Um, this where people are at risk of getting burnt out, really anxious and stressed. In zone three, which was like low energy and disconnected, this where people were just doing the bare minimum cruising, at risk of leaving the organization. And then in zone four, people felt calm and grounded, which was like disconnected and no connected and low energy. Um, but this is where people recovered. And then I was sharing like transitions, like how do you get from burnout to recovery or at risk of leaving to recovery? And you can't just jump to zone one and make everyone feel driven and perform. No, actually, you need to hold people's hands and walk to the appropriate zone depending on where they are. And the whole theme was around meeting people where they are. You don't know how your team feels, you don't know the emotional tone of your team. But I think the same is true for when we're talking about rest and recovery. Sometimes we need to map like, where are we? Are we at risk of burning out here? Am I just really disconnected with a process and feel like leaving, like what I was with my book? Am I in a state of just recovery right now? Like after my flu, I just needed to listen to that music and just completely switch off and do no work. I actually ended up taking a day off and just chilling with Joseph and like we went Nando's for a couple of hours, we went to play, we went to, and I just needed that day. It wasn't planned. I just cancelled a couple of meetings and I was like, I just need that day to recover, you know. And then how do we get back into that space where we are personally driven to perform and we are in that zone? But that those four zones were really helpful for me.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

So wrapping up, I think we've got a couple of I mean, that's a obviously a beautiful start for a very kind of journaling prompt, and we always try and end with a journaling prompt. I wonder if there's almost two journaling prompts to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

One around how we rest ourselves, and then my second one, which is a bit of a cheats one, but I definitely find a lot of the time I rest. I have a helping hand from friends. They help me spot when to rest. Nice, I like it. They help me rest. So maybe there's a point, maybe there's one journaling prompt that we could dig into about like personal rest, and a second, which is about how we could maybe pay it forward and help someone else rest in that process.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I like that. I like I don't think about that concept of helping someone else to rest.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

No, I don't either. Yeah, but that's nice. So, what could we what could we set? Any ideas on the first one for for an individual who's trying to rest better? What could be some good journaling prompts?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

But I think even noting down like beyond sleep, like how do you rest and recover? And just getting that out and writing that down is really important. Like, we spoke about a few things today for ourselves, anime, facials, like all of these are different ways that we recover. Um, but I especially love number two, but around like thinking about other people and how can we support other people with recovery. And I start thinking about my brothers, for example, and how can I support them with recovery or my missus? Like, how can I support people around me with recovery? And it might even be little things like just going for a dinner or a night out, switch off.

SPEAKER_04 42:24

And I love your I think the thing I'm gonna think about more after this is your delineation of like high energy, low energy. Both are forms of rest we definitely need. But also to your point about how do I build in a how do I build in little release valves so it's not a big release, because that's what I'm guilty of is waiting till I feel the need to rest. And then it's and then it's not rest, it's recovery. Yeah. And and actually having having some things along the way that actually make that need for recovery less because I've not just burnt myself out.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

And when I think of recovery, it makes me think of when I think of being burnt out and like I'm drained, what drains my energy, and recovery is like what brings me energy. Like what are the things that really bring me energy?

SPEAKER_04 43:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

This is actually a really good conversation. I've lost the idea. But yeah, I feel therapeutic myself now.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Love it. Well, I hope you listen and tell us what you think. And we'd love if you have good ideas for rest and recovery, please tell us because personally I'm in the market.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Yeah, yeah, likewise.