Episode 11: Reinvention Of Self

We're back and we're talking about reinvention of self. The urge to become someone new. The haircut after the breakup. The identity shed after the big life event. The promise of a cleaner, more disciplined, more together version of yourself that's always just one decision away.

In this episode we get honest about our own reinventions and where they've helped, where they've hurt, and where they've actually been unhealthy attempts to escape something we should have processed instead. Andy shares the moment at 16 when he quit football despite all the pressure to keep playing, and how that unlocked a curiosity that shaped his whole career. Hattie talks about the haircut after her mum died, the fringe after last year's breakup, and her complicated relationship with reinvention as a recovering people-pleaser.

We land on a distinction that's changed how we both think about this: the difference between reinvention and evolution. Reinvention asks you to be a different person. Evolution lets you keep being you, just more of yourself. One tends to hurt. The other tends to last.

Plus we talk about reinvention as a team sport, the multiplier effect of stacking different careers, how to hold your history without letting it cap your future, and why the people who've known you longest are often your biggest cheerleaders and your hardest mirror.
In this episode:

• Reinvention to escape vs reinvention to grow
• Andy on quitting football at 16 and finding his way from "footy to the FT"
• The hair-cut-after-a-breakup phenomenon and what's really going on underneath
• Why identity often gets tangled up in job titles and status
• Evolution as a kinder alternative to reinvention
• Career reinvention and the "multiplier effect" of stacking experiences
• How family and long-term friends both ground you and risk holding you to your old self

Journaling prompts:
When you feel at the edge of a reinvention, pause and ask:

• Am I trying to escape something I should actually process?
• What do I want to let go of here (what do I need to unlearn)?
• What do I want to take forward into the next stage (what do I need to learn)?
• At my core, who am I, and what are the parts of me that stay the same regardless?

Bonus prompt: ask one or two people who know you well - what have you seen in me that you think I could step into even more?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Entangling Life Podcast with me, your co-host Andy Ayim and the wonderful Patty Willis.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

Thanks, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

You like that?

SPEAKER_05 0:18

I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Receive your flowers.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

Oh, I'll take them. We're the real ones. Yeah, bring them in. Uh I love it. I'm excited for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

I can tell.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

But before we go into it, shall we talk about the street interviews or should we get them rolling and the listeners can hear for themselves? I reinvent myself about once a month. I move here from France and built a life here. I quit my corporate job in my 40s and retrained as a midwife. I have a lot of feelings about reinvention of self. Controversially, I am someone who has probably tried to do it a load of times and think it's the biggest mistake I make every time I try and do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Can we can we share some stories here just to make it real?

SPEAKER_05 1:07

Let's let's but you start before I'll tease mine and then you what is reinvention story?

SPEAKER_03 1:11

This is like a cliffhanger, so I wanna I think um I I thought back to my earliest reinvention story when it was in primary school, uh where Tottenham Hotspurs came to the school and they selected uh three players to come on their summer academy and they said to me that I was fourth. And I remember at a young age feeling like I really wanted to be my friends who got selected, and I got left out, and it really drove me at that time and for a number of years to show that I'm a good footballer. And it got to a stage as a teenager, I must have been about 17, 16, where I had to be honest with myself, and some people might laugh when they hear this, but I realized I hate training and playing in the cold. My fingers were numb, my hands were numb, it was not an enjoyable experience, and I packed it all in and said, I'm not gonna play football like this anymore. And that was my first step where or stage where I felt like I'm hellbent on being a footballer. Yeah, actually, I no longer want to be a footballer. What do I want to become next?

SPEAKER_05 2:22

Oh, I love that. Uh by the way, I hard relate. I used to at school I played hockey for a bit. I hated that it was the winter season, and so whenever you hit the ball, your hands would the vibrations would hurt.

SPEAKER_06 2:36

Oh gosh, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

I used to hate it. And I actually I only got back into hockey, it ended up being by accident, but I ended up coming back as the goalkeeper, and that was great because it really could be. Don't just get gloves, Andy. Head-to-toe padding, I could wear trackies under there, I could wear whatever I wanted underneath. I was toasty. I mean, I had bruises left, right, and centre from where the balls were hitting me, but you're warm. I was warm. So I relate.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, you can relate.

SPEAKER_05 3:04

So when you were doing that reinvention to escape the cold, yeah, and and realizing that you maybe football, something that you'd striven so hard for, yeah, wasn't right. What was that process like?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

And you know, it's deep, you know, because football, as you know, masculinity and it's all macho and it's the thing to do as a boy, is like rugby. So there was probably part of that in my identity at the time, like it's the thing to do, and and it I probably suppressed being honest about how I felt playing in the cold for years, apart from my family, no one really knew that I was suffering so much, you know. So to come out to come out, to come out and actually say, like, I'm I'm not playing football anymore, I hate playing in the cold. I think it took courage at that time, and part of the courage was standing up against that masculinity of you must play football. Boys love playing football. How could you be a wimp and not play in the cold?

SPEAKER_06 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

And and part of that courage was I'm stepping into unknown, I don't know what I want to do with myself, but I definitely don't want to be a footballer.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

And were your brothers into football? Because also you've got all this, like, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Not really, actually. My my elder brother played football at first, but he wasn't passionate to a degree where he wanted to make it as a footballer. My younger brother couldn't care less.

SPEAKER_06 4:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

So there wasn't that internal pressure from them, which probably helped.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Um, because if there was, it might have been a bit harder to uh to do that. Sorry, I just need to clear my throat.

SPEAKER_05 4:30

Yeah, it's like being in that episode where I have the coughing. I just want to cough I wanna cough. You good?

SPEAKER_04 4:36

I'm good now.

SPEAKER_05 4:37

Yeah, you sound like you.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Do I sound good? Oh, where are we going in this episode? All these bloopers. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:47

Cass is gonna have a fun editing. Uh it's like the spiders, the coughing fits. Like, what else is to come? No spiders.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:56

So you make the tough step, and actually, I think it's interesting to talk about so much of I think reinvention. There, I I guess there are two parts, right?

SPEAKER_06 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Sometimes it's escaping something that we don't want to be seen as. So, like my stories are a lot about wanting to be something I wasn't so that I could fit in more, I could do better.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yeah, I like to think of it as letting go.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

What am I gonna let go of and and what am I gonna hold on to going forward?

SPEAKER_05 5:24

I think that's a much healthier, spoiler, version of reinvention.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

So you let go of the the football?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:35

What other what uh that was one big moment, and then that that freed you up. What what did that make room for?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Did I ever tell you about the FT story of my dad?

SPEAKER_05 5:43

No.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

So um back in the day in Tottenham, like the the the local news agents wouldn't stock like the economists and the FT and these papers because the readership wasn't in this local area. So my dad had this good relationship with a corner shop owner, and he ordered in the weekend FT and the economist for us because he could see myself and my brothers were curious about businesses and stocks and shares, and we had no idea what it really meant, but we're just curious about it. So to feed our curiosity, he would buy these papers and we would like sink our teeth into them. So I was actually really curious about how businesses fit together, and I know that's such a geeky thing to say as a teenager, but it wasn't even for career purposes, I was just fascinated at stocks and shares and how fit businesses fit together. I didn't fully understand equity and ownership or anything like that. There was just something interesting to me, like wow, there's a team called HR and a team called sales and a team called Marking, and they all come together and that's a business. And how do you get people to work together? And how do you know when like how do you know the different things that people do? And and and how come there's something called a share price? And how come people are investing in this? And how come these people are talking in the paper about it? It was all very interesting to me. So I immediately, as soon as I was like, less football, I was I was digging into oh, I want to invest in some stocks and shares. I want to and I had a friend at the time, he was like, Yeah, put some money into Amazon, into YouTube, into and looking back, he was bang on the money, and he he was a um he was a trader at a bank, he was just much older than me, but I didn't understand what that meant at the time. But he obviously had the insight to know that put your money in these stocks. So he was that was my first experience like investing in stocks and shares.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Oh, so from footy to the FT.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Yeah, from 40 to the FT, I like that.

SPEAKER_05 7:26

Sat on that for a minute. Yeah, it got it got funnier the longer I sat on it.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Oh, she just branded me.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

I love it. I feel like that's why it's worth therapeutic.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

I take so much out of these conversations. I don't know if I've shared that before, but um, I think it makes sense because you know the other stories of like growing up and why did I invest in a property so early and stuff. I think all of this is connected to that.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

And I yeah, we and we talk a lot about that in the Money Mindset episode as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Okay, so that beautiful reinvention. What else? Other big reinventions for Andy?

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Um, I'm gonna go through one or two, but I actually am really still hanging on the hangar of learning about it.

SPEAKER_05 8:06

We get people to listen to the whole episode, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Because you wait till a good part. Um, the next reinvention was probably at university because I studied accounting because basically my dad told me doctor, accountant, lawyer, or engineer. I'm like accounting, it sounds interesting because again, I'm geeking out on how businesses fit together, and this is the number side. And it was really interesting because looking back, um I became the president of the Entrepreneur Society at uni. Entrepreneurship was the one module that I got a first in, and um I networked during my whole work experience or year in placement, and that's where I got my mentor from who got me into my first job. So the actual accounting itself, yeah, I realized very quickly I didn't want to become an accountant. But all of those added benefits around it helped me kind of reinvent myself and get myself into building your network. Yeah, yeah, and then that got me into management consulting, which is my first job, which is so great for feeding that curiosity around how businesses fit together. Yeah, it was the perfect first job for that.

SPEAKER_05 9:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Okay, I feel like it's I've got a few more, but I'll touch on it later because I want to get on to you.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

Okay. I think what strikes me is this idea of reinvention. I think hearing you talk, I definitely can think of healthier reinventions that I've gone through. But they for me almost feel like more like evolutions.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Ooh, that's nice. I like evolutions actually. Yeah, and I think I think rather than completely reinventing yourself.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

And I think this is a little bit the crux for me because I think so, and we we did a whole episode on transitional periods.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:44

And and I've been through some big ones in life. Spoiler alert for that episode. And whenever I go through a big transitional period, I feel the need to look very different. Okay? So yeah, so so about um a few months maybe after my mum died, I I had always had pretty similar hair, right? Long and blonde to varying degrees. And I decided to cut it off. So I I went to a brunette very short bob um in one file swoop. Wouldn't recommend that there were definite tears. The hairdresser was not ready for the amount of emotion that came with this haircut. Um and but it but it was about this I I guess needing to feel different, yeah. Because I didn't want to necessarily be who I was feeling at that time. And again, I went through a big breakup last year. And obviously, what do you do when you have a breakup? You get bangs, you get a fringe. I've actually kept it this time. I thought, and I I went to my hairdresser. I went to my hairdresser at the time and I was like, look, I appreciate I did not meet the mental health checklist for getting a fringe that any good hairdresser will give. Like I am going through huge emotional turbulence, but I want the fringe anyway. And luckily she trusted me and we did the fringe. But I think there is this point for me that often what happens is I'm there's a real correlation with wanting to look different so that I almost don't recognise the person that things have happened to. Like I want to, and I think about this a lot like what is a psychology that everyone who goes through a breakup like often does do a huge visual change. And I think it's almost a thing of wanting to look in the mirror and see someone who that didn't happen to, see a different person. And I think sometimes that can feel like a healthy marker and a healthy change, but often I think when I've been trying to reinvent myself, and I think back a lot to when I was in school and and even at university at the beginning, I was often at the edge of the cool group. And I often had like maybe one or two friends who were in that group properly, and I always felt like I didn't fully fit in, like I was being like begrudgingly allowed to m go to the things I did go to sometimes, and like I was just never good enough to be in that group, and and over time what I what I increasingly found were people who just didn't make me feel like that, and I felt really at ease. But when I found those, it was never like a big reinvention point, it was like an easing off. Yeah, but often when I was trying to fit in, that was when I was trying to do trying to reinvent myself, you know. If I just get this style of dress, or if I just get this hairstyle, whatever it is, and often quite physical reinvention, then I will suddenly be accepted.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:46

And and for me, I think the a lot of what I've been reflecting on the last There's a lot of layers here, how you? Oh the therapy is coming, it's clear, it's like ready for the therapy. Um, but I and I think I I have been reflecting about it a lot in the last six months because I've come out of this big life-changing event, and and and it feels like I don't know if you feel this, but also when something big happens, you I almost feel that like I should be reinventing myself. Like, oh, you know, this is you know, often people talk about oh, this is gonna be a great time to, you know, and we talked about in the transition episode. It is a great time to try scary things and be who you want to be. But also, I don't I'm not I'm 32, I don't want to reinvent myself. I quite like myself now. Like I I don't want to be this new person every five years, I just want to keep easing and easing more into me.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

I think there's layers of reinvention from what from hearing you, it's like onions and peeling back the layers. And I think at Hattie's core, Hattie is Hattie, but I guess you're stepping into a more authentic self, you're being more you, and actually that physical turnaround is actually surface level.

SPEAKER_06 13:58

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

But when I speak to Hattie, when I perform with Hattie, when I work with Hattie, when I laugh with Hattie, it's actually still Hattie. That hasn't been reinvented or changed. It's not like you've developed a new laugh, like do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Like the actual attributes of who you are, it's still the same. It would be really weird if you did speak in a like completely different voice, and it's what I used to.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

Whenever I used to public speak, I would talk in a different voice. My friends would always laugh at me and be like, Oh, you're using your public speaking voice. I don't know what it is every time.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

But yeah, I feel like because the identity that I'm familiar with is the same, when the changes happen, like the fringe, it's like it's cool. But it's like I I think as maybe this is a male point of view as well, by the way. And there might be a gender lens to this, there might not.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Yeah, yeah, almost certainly.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Sorry if I'm representing all the males incorrectly here, but um like this this hairstyle that I've got in my hair now with the locks, um, I've had it before, you've seen it before. But then sometimes after like eight months or whatnot, I just I just need to switch it up.

SPEAKER_05 15:03

I'm the same and get bored.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Yeah, I get bored. I think that's the term. I get bored. But then there's a limit to my boredness because I'm not gonna get bored to the degree where I'm gonna cut my whole hair off. But if I did, that would feel like a reinvention to me.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's fair. And I think I think to your point, it's right. I mean, and the funny thing I I did find rogue observation when I first got a fringe, actually, a friend who'd been through a really big breakup told me, Don't get a fringe, because I got a fringe, and what I realized about the fringe was it was me trying to hide. Like I wanted to hide after my breakup.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

I don't feel like that with you though, to kind of say.

SPEAKER_05 15:37

And I actually, interestingly, I let it grow out for the first few weeks I had it, it let it grow really long. It was basically in front of my eyes.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

How did you feel about social media during that time of reinventing yourself, growing the fringe?

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Uh good question. I was actually finding it quite hard in that time because I always struggle with social media where I find it really helpful when people are really honest on social media when they're going through hard stuff.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

You don't want to share too much why you're going through it.

SPEAKER_05 16:07

Well, and also I just maybe I've internalized some unhealthy ideas, but I don't want to be attention seeking. We talked about this in the previous one. And it feels like sometimes to be your real self that would mean going on and crying and actually just being an absolute mess. And I feel like I don't know if I'm if I want the reason I would do that would be because I would want other people to feel like they were okay if they were in a similar space. But sometimes I let the voice in my head that says other people would judge me for that and think, oh she's just being attention seeking. That that would almost be yeah, I I I don't want that.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

I think I think I think it's important that everyone respects each other's personal boundaries. And um I personally am not comfortable with crying on social media, yeah, but I feel more comfortable crying to Lynette.

SPEAKER_06 17:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Actually, Lynette's probably one of the only people I probably feel comfortable crying with. Outside of that, even my brothers or my mum, I feel uncomfortable crying in front of. You know, but someone else's boundary is social media. Someone else's boundary isn't social media, it's work. Someone else's it's just all different personal boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

I think that's true. And I think Yeah. And I think it does come back to giving yourselves periods where you can explore those boundaries. But with the theme of I I guess reinvention, I want to like almost unpack it a little bit more structurally because I think so much of this podcast is about trying to untangle your life, yeah, trying to ask the questions that are really difficult, trying to face up to the things that actually you might have to m take an action on that you don't want to have to deal with. Going through those really messy transitions, dealing with stuff like everything that brings up around financial and mindset. I mean, yeah, really digging into some messy, messy.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Really tangly.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

Very naughty.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Very naughty.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

And so I think reinvention comes up within that.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

But I sometimes feel the lure of another version of me that I can almost picture that I just think we'll have it all together.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

So do you feel when you when you talk about reinvention in that sense, is it a transformation? You know, like like caterpillar to butterfly.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

Yeah, yeah, like the the the the Hattie that I sometimes think I could reinvent myself to, she's she's so disciplined. Her house is always tidy.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

This tidy house thing is a thing.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

It's a thing. It's a thing. That's a theme.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

I could probably need three episodes.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

I think more than three, probably. But she's she's on time for everything, you know, lots of things. But they're more uh structural. And they some of them are probably achievable with some work.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 18:59

But I think to your point, I think sometimes the way I talk to myself about them is almost like it's a different person, not it's an evolution of me. And I think this is where I want to come with the reinvention point of often I think when things feel really messy, and why I share the example of the fringe is we almost want the separation. I want to step into someone who is different so that almost I'm shedding.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Can I use an analogy here to further this conversation? Um, we work a lot with startups and technology entrepreneurs, and when they iterate on a product, they're trying to tweak it to continuously improve it to make it better for their customers. But on the occasion, a product like Slack, which was a gaming software, does a complete pivot and becomes a communication software.

SPEAKER_06 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

When we're talking about reinventions, are we talking about complete pivots here? Yeah. Or are we talking about iterating on the same application?

SPEAKER_05 19:52

And I think this is almost what I guess I want to challenge people to think about. Is often it feels like we're asking ourselves to be a different person. And I guess what I want to encourage is how could we be kinder in the way we explore evolution for ourselves so that it's not leaving everything behind like a you know, unrecognizable caterpillar. And there is a there is a big I do I love um is a brilliant book called The Comfort Book by Matt Haig.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

I've never heard of that. So many good book recommendations.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

Um it's like a lovely book if you're ever feeling sad or low. It has just really short reflections that you can dip into that and just hearing one of them talks about the kind of um going from caterpillar to butterfly and talks about how actually in the cocoon the caterpillar. Well it like and in that process it you literally break down into like goop. He calls it caterpillar soup. And this idea that actually you have to almost completely come apart to melt down to then reinvent.

unknown 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:00

But I think what I want us to not forget is that it's okay to still I don't think in life it's ever that, you know. Yeah. For for us at least, I don't think we come out and we're suddenly a butterfly.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

There isn't, but I think similar to the the caterpillar caterpillar being in the um what do you call it, the crisis, the crystalis. Yeah. The crystalis. Um I think there's a catalyst sometimes that's almost like a chemical reaction that kicks us into gear. And when I look back as being a kid, I was always someone like curious about the world, like learning about others, interested in other things. But I was born in an environment in Tottenham where I felt like, oh, but I don't want to, I don't want to move away too much from the core of what it means to be a Tottenham boy.

SPEAKER_06 21:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Do you know what I mean? Yeah I've got my friends here, my identities here. Like I am from Enns, I'm from Tottenham. And I I'll never forget there was one um multi level marketing scheme that I joined. I didn't know what the term meant at the time. Time called Success University.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

Is it like a pyramid scheme?

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Pyramid scheme. Right, right. Success University, manned by a guy called Matt Morris. I even remember doing my research at the time. Okay. And it was introduced to me by an elder in Tottenham, an older friend, he was like someone that I respected. So because it came from him as a source, I was like, okay, I'm going to check this out. I'm going to go with him to the event. I was sold at the event and I started I joined his pyramid. And then I got about 20 people in Tottenham to join me under my pyramid.

SPEAKER_05 22:34

And then I realized that early sales skills, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Very good leadership and sales skills, I would say early on. But when I realized it was a multi-level marketing scheme, I stopped it. I told everyone, like, stop paying, like, let's stop this. But I was left with all these products. The products were like CDs, books, and material all around personal development. So it's like Brian Tracy, Zig Ziggler, Jim Rohn, Les Brown. I don't know if anyone recognises these names that I would say, Anthony Robbins, but these are like motivational speakers, sales coaches. So they actually started like rewiring my mind. And I realized when I was reading this content, it made me realise two things. One, where I'm born in life doesn't determine where I end up. I started to believe that now because I was hearing these stories. And the second is um, and this sounds really basic and capitalistic, but profits are better than wages. I learned that from that material, and it set me on a course for the rest of my career, that stuff. Because it just gave it gave me a mindset that I could assimilate to and be like, yep, that's a bit of me. That's a bit of what I was looking for. Actually, that aligns with my way of thinking. I'm gonna lean into implementing this stuff now. I actually believe. I was curious before, now I believe. Yeah, I'll say that unashamably.

SPEAKER_05 23:52

I mean, I love it. Um it makes me think, again, back to I think a point we talked about before. I want to make this I want to make sure as well that we make this useful for people who missed.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Well, I've got a story to be honest. So I I I I trust that you're gonna help make it useful.

SPEAKER_05 24:08

I mean I'm I'm feeling my way here and knitting live. Um I think for me there are there are multiple things that are maybe helpful for us to unpack.

SPEAKER_06 24:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

One is what are the points that we tend to want to reinvent and and how do we make sure that those are uh end not hurting us in the process. Two, I think to your point of how do we reinvent without losing our I think there are two sides of the coin from what you just said to me. One is I actually I do want to keep my background and I don't want to suddenly be in a place where it's completely impossible to tell where I've come from because that's still a part of me.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah, it's identity level, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

Exactly. But secondly, how do I not let that limit the where I see myself being able to go?

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:00

And I think uh Tim Campbell is one of the best examples of this. One of the best people ever I mean The Apprentice, Tim Campbell. Yeah, so won The Apprentice and then became one of uh Lord Sugar's advisors on The Apprentice, he's an investor and businessman, and I saw him speak live uh at an Imperial event for black founders, and he was I mean, A, just one of the best speakers I've ever seen in my life. His storytelling is just challenging literally you and him are at the top. He's so good. But what felt very true was that he he he was achieving so much, he was doing incredibly remarkable things, and he still felt like the same person who you know when he was telling his stories, there didn't feel like a disconnect from when he was telling his stories about being a young kid to now.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Loved it.

SPEAKER_05 25:47

And so I think that I think is is important in the reinvention that we're not it's not a setting aside or a hiding or a it's all part of the journey.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yeah, yeah. So maybe I think it's hard to uh hard to see it when you're going through it though. Yeah, yeah. I feel like um like I'll talk about career transition. Yeah, um I remember when when my daughter was one, I left my job as a product manager, and I joined an accelerator program, and I failed, didn't get investment, and I wasn't earning, my wife wasn't earning. On the surface, it was a ludicrous risk to take at that time. Um, but I think entrepreneurs are all irrational to a degree. And I ended up um starting a podcast because I was like a bit tired of blogging all the time and the newsletter that I was doing for years. Uh, and I started this blog uh podcast called Technicity, never brought out an episode. But one of the people that I interviewed was a lady called Arlene Hamilton. And during that conversation, like we really struck a chord, got on, and I said, Why don't you come to the UK and I'll introduce you to a few VCs, a few limited partners that invest in VCs, angel investors, founders, and we just like make this trip around you experiencing our ecosystem. She said, Yes, she comes over. I think you came. Did you come to one of the events? Maybe not. But we had a public event at um Boulderton Ventures. Uh it was it was it was a rammed, packed room full of founders and a few investors, and we did like a fireside chat, and then we had a number of private events at different VC's offices. And my friend Zoe, who's now at Sequoia, but at the time was at EQT Ventures, arranged for us to have a meeting in our office with Matt and Check from Ada Ventures and a few people around the table. And during that meeting, um, Arlen said he doesn't know it yet, but I want to make Andy the managing director of my accelerator business. And the reason that moment meant so much to me looking back now is because I was going through a process of reinvention. I'd left my career job as a product manager, I'd just become a father, which is a new identity hat that I've got on, which is quite permanent. And then I wasn't earning much of an income, so I didn't feel very responsible given that I just took on this new role as a father, which is quite permanent and expensive. Um, so when she made that job offer, it felt right, but it was never my intention to get a job.

SPEAKER_06 28:19

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

I was I was actually inviting her over because of the goodness or I guess how much I loved entrepreneurship and this ecosystem, but it ended up in a commercial opportunity.

SPEAKER_06 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

And and and then that launched me into a space and then into a brand around underoffs founders and entrepreneurship and investing that I didn't write for myself and it was never in my strategic plan or in my roadmap, but became a big part of my identity, even till now that that's a big part of who I've become.

SPEAKER_05 28:46

Which I guess is something we spoke about in the first episode, right? I think being intentional about life doesn't mean you're gonna not make room for the amazing opportunities that you never predicted that come up along the way.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah. So also relates to our transitions episode, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:00

A hundred percent. And and so much in there. So uh question.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Did Did we meet after that journey?

SPEAKER_05 29:09

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Okay, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

Yeah. And I I wanna I wanna come back to that kind of that process of reinvention with a job you're kind of given rather than seeking out.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:19

But also curious as a as a new father at that time.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

What was that reinvention? Was that uh was it a reinvention?

SPEAKER_03 29:28

It's an evolution, like you said. I like that language around evolution.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

What what were some of the hard bits and some of the like identity-wise?

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

I'm so curious. I've never, you know, obviously not done it, and I will never be a father.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

I think there's two or three I think mindsets I had at the time. How can I feel what I don't know? Are you gonna be good or are you gonna be bad? I don't know. I'm gonna give it a try. Because I don't know. I don't know yet. Um second thing was at that it was very pivotal for me that like work until I had a child was the son of my universe. When I was a management consultant, I went and lived in South Africa, I went to Hong Kong, I went to Shenzhen, I lived in San Francisco. As soon as I had a child, I dropped my 10-year visa to the US. I said I'm coming back to London, and my family became the center of my universe. So it reoriented how I was managing my time. Until today, I've stayed quite true to that. So it was little values like there's one I've got called 2M5, which means two evenings a week, I can go to events, speak at events, but five evenings a week, I've got to be home with the family. And you've heard me share that before. So I'm quite I've tried to be consistent with that where I can. Um, but that came because I had a family. Um, and I think the third thing was um it taught me that in life there's so many examples of great people that have done great things when doing it for the first time. Whether that's parenting, whether that's being a husband, whether that's like building a venture firm, even though I've never worked in venture before or worked in an accelerator business, great people can do things when great doing it for the first time. And that was a mantra that I really held on to, and I still believe until today. Now don't judge me by my past and my CV. Actually, I've got all these transferable skills in. If I believe I back myself that I can do that thing, I can figure it out.

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Yeah, love that. And so, and then in in terms of career reinvention, what's helped at different because you have had you've actually had like a very we often say this, it's so easy to see the red thread when you look backwards, but when you're in it, it often feels like a much bigger pivot. I mean, you look back and you can kind of all make it somehow line up.

SPEAKER_04 31:31

100%.

SPEAKER_05 31:32

But it's much, much, much muddier in the process. What's helped at your different career reinventions?

SPEAKER_03 31:38

You know, it's funny because when I speak to um like executives who have been in their company for like 30, 40 years, they talk about this concept of having several careers in the same company, and I feel like I've done the inverse. I've had several careers in different companies. So I went from management consultant, which is like a really broad base skill set. We call it like a T-shaped skill set. You get a really broad base as a consultant across a lot of different skills, and then I I went into product management, where it's like, all right, this is where I developed the the what was like leg of my T here, and I get deep into a certain subject matter. But then product management is really um beneficial for venture investing, and actually, my background education-wise in college was all like humanity subjects, like theology, sociology, history. And if you think about investing, a lot of things people think is just like data and it's numbers, but actually, the decision-making process to invest into an entrepreneur initially is actually based on more of the humanity subjects because you're more analyzing someone's behaviors, the psychology of a person, um, understanding their mindset, you're really assessing the human potential of someone without the absence within the absence of data to actually that all of that lent well, especially product management and that mindset to venture investing and assessing startups. And then once I've gone from venture investing into facilitating, actually that was quite natural because it was Angel Investing School, which was the bridge. So Angel Investing School, I was facilitating something I was very familiar with.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

What strikes me every time you're talking about this, you're almost talking about what am I taking again, what am I taking from the last 100%.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

I I see them, I call them my multiplier effects. Like, like this time, this thing times this thing equals this greater number, you know. So if I do like eight plus eight, it equals 16. But eight times eight is 64. And and so I see them all as multiplier experiences like that. They don't add up, they multiply each other.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

It makes me think, I think for people who are listening and feeling uh maybe again linking back to the transitional period, but feeling like they're on the cusp of reinvention or they want a reinvention. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 33:54

First of all, I've got two questions I want to ask you. How did you feel in the evolution from university to your first corporate job? And then I want to know in the gap that I met you in between the corporate job and you starting Guessworks.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

So I So the I I was lucky in the sense that it wasn't it wasn't a corporate corporate job, but it was it was in corporate innovation.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

But that wasn't what I thought I was doing. So so when I I left university, I actually took some time off after university uh and and did a bit of travel because I I hadn't done it but between you go to uh went to Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, um, Myanmar, um, yeah. Yeah, very beautiful places. Um politically challenging, um, but very beautiful places, very rich histories, very culturally. It was it was incredible. And so I took some time and then I kind of thought, do I want to be a founder? And I had this idea for a startup, and I'd I I'd been freelancing at that point for different startups for a while.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

I was gonna say, how did you even know about startups and being a founder?

SPEAKER_05 35:16

I ran my college bar and I met a founder through that work.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

You told me that story.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

Yeah, and I and so I knew about the startup world. And I think actually it's interesting this point of identity often has come up as well when I think about reinventing myself. So it I've had lots of points where I've often stepped away from something that I was pushing really hard towards because I realized that what I was trying to invent with that was often quite connected to a title or a you know, I would be a partner, I'd be the youngest partner in the company, or I'd be a founder, or you know, it was more connected to the how could I say who could I say I was rather than who was I? And and often there was a disconnect that then led me to actually kind of swerve that attempted reinvention to something that was actually more natural evolution.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

We both played team sports, hockey was one of your team sports. Did you play netball?

SPEAKER_05 36:12

Yeah, I played everything in school, made me play, and then and then quit a lot of them as soon as we're gonna be able to do enjoy any of them. I liked rounders, rounders, that was fun.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Yeah, that's like a summer activity, end of school, a little bit of fun. A theme for us in team sports, yes, and we like sun and we like warmth. Yeah, although I didn't get invited to Miami, but that's another episode. Okay, so team sports. Yes, is reinvention a team sport? Are there others that you have around you who support you when going through that season of reinvention?

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Yes, and maybe some who play against you if it goes wrong. Okay, I think it's hard sometimes when you're trying to reinvent yourself, you're trying to evolve into another version of yourself, and you're surrounded by people who knew the old you. And and they're still clinging to a version of you that maybe you want to feel the bit distanced from.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

You knew me, but you don't know me.

SPEAKER_05 37:08

Yeah, or even like I'm not like that anymore. Yeah, and I feel like this is a big thing with family, yeah. Because A, I don't know about you, but I definitely do have the propensity to slip into my teenage self when I'm surrounded by my like nuclear family. And with all of the drama that she had, and a lot of the like, you know, I not always my best self as a teenager. But but then it's hard because you almost want to show like I'm not I'm not like that anymore. Like, I'm not an I've become more aware, I'm hopefully more thoughtful, like all those things, but they remember the old version, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

And it's so that's hard. Yeah, I think with long-term friends and family, that must be so true. But even certain people I feel like have known me at different points of life, yeah. Like Andy the product manager or Andy the the traveller or backpacker or travel, but it's like depending on where you met me and where I was at that time, you might hold on to that even though I've let that thing go.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

Yeah, but also I think the opposite is true, it's also the most grounding thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Yeah. And I'm the right people around you, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:11

And and a lot of my friendships are very long friendships. So my you know, two two of my best friends I've known one since I was 11 months older, one since I was three years old.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Yeah, I love that. I've got one friend like that as well. We need to get our friends together that we've known since we were in nursery.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

Oh fun, that'd be cool, isn't it? That would be very funny, and I think it is like that interesting thing of like they've known so many versions of you, yeah. And and yes, that sometimes means you will default to the younger versions, but actually, it is also really beautifully grounded because they see everything that stays the same in that process, and those people are your biggest cheerleaders. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Now I'm thinking of my guy SP Steven, you're loving, yeah, biggest cheerleader, and you know, our DMs are the best on IG. He just sends me all this motivational stuff, inspiring stuff, and I had to create a folder on IG, like wisdom from SP.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

So whenever I need a little bit of that, I just go into that folder. I'm like, oh yeah, I needed that.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

And I think often, and and yeah, mine are definitely definitely inspiration, definitely cheerleading. Also, like often telling me just be gentler, can we be a bit gentler with ourselves because they they know that I struggle with that. So that we talked about that in the rest episode, helping people who help you rest. Yeah, but I think I think it's definitely I love this idea of reinvention as this kind of team sport.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah, I like that as well.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

Because I and I also I think you need people who can the encouragement that you can be that, that you've got it in you, that they've seen something in you to your point, like maybe friends who can help. Maybe this comes to what we're gonna go to later about the reflections, but maybe sitting down with friends, just like we did in that first episode, asking people what comes easy to me that's hard to other people, asking people what have you seen in me that you think I could step into even more? What have what could I use in the next phase where I want to get better at these things?

SPEAKER_03 39:56

And they have your best interests at heart.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

100%. 100%. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

I love that. Um, as you're talking, another kind of like little question came into my head as well. Um, do you ever have a little bit of regret when letting something go of what could have been? Um I give you an example, like there was a consultancy that I joined and they were a startup, and I moved them to South Africa, then to San Fran. I knew they were going places.

SPEAKER_06 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

I knew if I just stayed on that ship, I'd be one of the captains on that ship right now.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

The FOMO.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

You know? And the part with the founding partner of that consultancy, yeah, said to me a number of times, Andy, you know, you would have been a great partner here.

SPEAKER_06 40:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

You know, and I know that's true. But do you ever feel that little bit like, oh, what if or if I didn't let that go, have I fully even let that go?

SPEAKER_05 40:53

Not so much. I think one thing I live by is I tend to regret the things I don't do more than the things I do do. And so You do do. I do do. I do do do. I've now got a do-do-do song in my head. I think the the key is, for me at least, and I think different people are different, if I've if I've not done something because I've done something else, normally the regret isn't there because it's like, well, I'm now in this different space, yes, and I'm enjoying it. And as long as I've stepped into it for the right reasons, which we'll come to when we talk about the prompts, yeah. I I'm normally happy. I get a bit of it, I'm not gonna pretend there's no part of me that isn't like you're a hopeless optimist, yeah. But but I but I don't deeply regret it because I kind of think, well, there was a reason I I stepped away, there was a reason I I moved into this thing instead.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah. My my you see it as a multiplier effect in a way as well, then.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

Oh, my biggest issue is actually that I think it's almost like the not the looking back with regret, it's the looking for because I actually live my life quite a lot to try not to live back with regret. But it's the looking forward without being paralyzed by all the things that you could do. All by not overcommitting to do all those things. That is I find the harder thing is like to get the FOMO looking forward rather than looking back.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Yeah. I feel like um I'm gonna go to an Avengers analogy here. Oh are you familiar with the Avengers?

SPEAKER_05 42:21

Deeply, intimately excellent, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

So I feel like this is like the multiverse. Yeah, like you are aware that there's all of these alternative universes that you could, and it's almost like it's the curse of the fact that you are aware of that. You're better off not knowing about that, and then you can live a more singular life, but because you know it, actually it's that paradox of choice.

SPEAKER_05 42:41

Yeah, and I mean, and there's a lot of luck in that where you when you have the optionality, you have to be also grateful that you have the options, right? Absolutely, and and so but yeah, like is there is you know, to keep your analogy, there are times I feel like you know, so frustrated that I could be the Hulk that I didn't that that I don't know what to do, but uh most of the time I'm pretty looking backwards, I'm pretty chill about what I've done.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah, I get that. I was gonna make it worse than carry on the analysis.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

Yeah, I know I try I think I tried too hard with the Hulk.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

I'm not gonna do that now. That's all good. Um who's your favourite Avenger, just out of interest? Is there a favourite?

SPEAKER_05 43:18

Um I feel like I'm gonna embarrass myself. Is Thor an Avenger? Thor?

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

Yeah, great. Then Thor.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yeah, yeah, Thor is.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

Oh I also really like Loki, but I know he's not an Avenger.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

But yeah, but Loki, he's really cool.

SPEAKER_05 43:31

Loki is Loki cool.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um who's yours? Probably King to try um, what's it, Black Panther? Can you pass it away? Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

Also epic character as well, which is fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Um, although I do love the X Men, so I can't wait to get away. So I don't understand.

SPEAKER_05 43:50

So wait, are they all Avengers?

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Yeah, they're all Avengers, yeah. They've just expanded it and grew it out, grown it out. But there was a core.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Because there was the Avengers Assemble, which I use a lot in Voltaire.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

But they reinvented themselves.

SPEAKER_05 44:03

Evolved.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Evolved. Exactly. We're gonna bring it back now.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Can I can I change my answer because it was a real light black man?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Okay, no problem.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

I didn't realise he was an option. We can not that deep in the market.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

I get it, you were like the core. You were like the black. I just thought it was like Avengers Assemble. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Yeah, and it's not Iron Man.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Um reinventions sometimes go unnoticed when actually they're slow and steady over time.

SPEAKER_06 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Do you feel looking at your life, even outside of your career, that you've had a slow and steady reinvention that perhaps has gone unnoticed?

SPEAKER_05 44:43

I think when I first think about it, no. I'm like, I can see the big pivot points where I pitched for different jobs, where I left work, where you know relationships ended, death happened. I can see if I look back, those are almost the markers I see. Yeah, there was a catalyst. But actually I think when I think about it, it's been a much longer evolution to being happy, being hatty.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

And to shedding a lot, I mean still so much work to do, but a lot of the sense that I wasn't Yeah, a lot of the self-conscious sense I was too much or not enough in certain weight, you know, all those things. I think I feel much more comfortable in my own skin than I ever have in my life.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

It's amazing, isn't it? It's so it is.

SPEAKER_05 45:31

It's honestly it's so lush. Would recommend to around like getting rid of a load of the stuff that I was doing to please other people. Yeah, I'm still a massive people pleaser, I'm not quite there yet, but I do think that has been a much longer evolution and much harder to pinpoint the shifts. I think that's been much more day-to-day, little by little, lots of people like helping me realize that.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Oh, I feel so grateful. I think it's a good time to kind of run up our episode and share a journaling prompt.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Okay. Do you have one in mind?

SPEAKER_03 46:06

I don't, but you had some good suggestions.

SPEAKER_05 46:08

Great. Now I will remember them.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

They were. Does anyone do this where you like can't remember what you were gonna say? So you just keep talking and hope it comes?

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Well, one of them was around leaving letting go.

SPEAKER_05 46:19

Yes. Oh, yes, thank you. Okay, so thought number one was around when we feel at a point of reinvention, just how can we pause and check? Number one, am I trying to escape something that maybe I actually need to process a bit so I'm not running away from something?

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

Number two, what do I want to let go in this that isn't serving me genuinely?

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah, which is like what do I want to unlearn?

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Yes, love that as a framing.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:49

Number three, what am I gonna take forward into the next stage?

SPEAKER_03 46:52

Yes. Or do I need to learn as well? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:55

And I think there's an overarching one for me, which some people may relate to, others may not. How am I in that evolution not asking myself to be someone different that has this inherent judgment of who the old inverted commas me was?

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Yeah. I think something else that would be helpful as a prompt is just really reflecting at like at my core, who am I? Like what are the parts of me that actually stay me and don't change? We didn't talk about it much in the episode, but I think it's a really good reflection to think actually what are the parts of me that are just stable and this is who I am.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

I'm gonna final minute. What are those core parts for you? Um I wanna know.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Well, let's let's do it for each other. I'll name one for you, you name one for me, and then we'll end.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Because we can name more than one.

SPEAKER_05 47:47

Oh, there's so many. Yeah, can I have more than one? One feels cool. Can we have three? Just I I'll overthink it if I just have one.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

No, one is good, it forces it forces the mark because we're gonna be running out of time in this case.

SPEAKER_05 47:57

Okay, I can run out of time arguing with you, but okay. Fine, one, you go first.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

I've known you for a number of years now.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

And one thing that I can consistency consistently say about you is that you're a very, very caring friend. And I don't mean, oh, just towards Andy. No, I can name a number of people on this podcast right now where I think, like, wow, Hattie has gone above and beyond to be there for these people. And there's people that I've never met, and I hear what you're doing for them and where you're going for them, and visiting them in hospital, and I'm like, I think she thinks this is normal. Like, there's not many people I know in my phone book who will go to the extent that Hattie will go to to just be by someone's side.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Oh, Gandhi, you got me.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

I think that's consistently.

SPEAKER_05 48:40

At the end of the podcast, I'm gonna cry.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

I think that's consistently you.

SPEAKER_05 48:44

God. Okay, right, I've got to pull away.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

But when I share that, there's memories that come into your head, right? That you're like, you know what I'm I'm referring to. There's probably a lot more that I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

I think also that's a lovely thing of like if that is um oh quite emotional. That is genuinely like if someone could describe like if I got to pick it.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

I think it matters to you.

SPEAKER_05 49:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

I think you stand on that as a like kid. That matters to her is philosophy, her values, that's who she is. Yeah. That matters to you to be there for others, and that's why you value when people are there for you.

SPEAKER_05 49:14

God, no pressure to do you. Uh oh, I wanted to hold hands on it. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, fine. Um, okay, I need to do a good job of yours now. That was so good. I'm so happy. You know, sometimes you're just happy to go first. Like, why should I go second? Okay. I think so many things come into my view. I don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

That's why you wanted three.

SPEAKER_05 49:37

That's why I wanted three. Because I feel like okay, can I cheat? I'm gonna do three because otherwise I'll take forever trying to do one. I think for me, there is this this beautiful part for me that you are whole wholly yourself, you you bring all of yourself to what you do, but you also don't what I'm trying to get at is that that for you, I feel like you everywhere you go, you show up wholly yourself. You bring all of yourself, you're very present in the moment. But I think a lot of people who do that do that in a way that they are it's at the expense of things that also matter to them. Whereas I feel like a bit like we were talking about with your two and five rule, I feel like I'm always confident with you that when you show up with me, you're you're you're you're present and you're there, but also you're still utterly your fatherly self. You're you're gonna give the time to that you need. I don't get a sense with you that you're ever making anyone feel like your time with them is kind of rushed and frantic because you're you're you're taking the time to really invest where you are, and you've been very deliberate in where you invest so that you can show up in that right way for the people you care about and the people you want to be there for.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

I love them. That is a hundred percent me, and I appreciate that because I care about that, and that's why one is enough. Okay, we're gonna end it on that. It's a beautiful note to each other. We're gonna take that now, aren't we?

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Yeah, I'm gonna replay this every night.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Last two seconds of the podcast.