Episode 12: Is Imposter Syndrome Even Real?

There's a phrase that took off in the 1890s called bicycle face. A made-up affliction that posters warned women about right at the moment they started riding bikes, wearing trousers, and gaining freedom. We open this episode with a real question: is imposter syndrome the same thing? A label that arrived just as more women, more people of colour, more people from non-traditional backgrounds started entering rooms they'd been kept out of?

Our take: it's complicated. There are people walking around with way too little of it (we're looking at you, British politics) and people drowning in too much of it (the founders we coach who leave themselves off their own pitch decks). We unpack both, why one of us needs more humility and the other needs more of their own evidence, and what to actually do when the voice gets loud.

We talk through the questions that have helped us most. What is true here, not what's the worst case. Whose voice is the imposter voice using. So what if it is true. And the practical tools we've stolen and shared along the way: Amy Widener's wind bank, Hattie's rejection therapy challenge from her Wimbledon survey-job days, Andy's three-futures prompt for when imposter syndrome dresses itself up as a career decision.

Plus the question we've found genuinely useful: what would someone completely mediocre but very overconfident be doing right now that you're not?

In this episode:

- The bicycle face history and why labels matter
- Andy's definition of imposter syndrome as the voice that gets louder when confidence is low
- Why some people need more imposter syndrome (and what unchecked confidence looks like)
- Why others need much less (and how systemic signals get internalised as personal failings)
- "What is true?" as the most useful grounding question
- The three-futures prompt for big career decisions
- And the always-useful: what's the actual worst that could happen?

Subscribe to our substack for the journalling prompts: https://substack.com/@untanglinglifepod

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Welcome back to Untangling Life. I am your co-host Hattie Willis, and with me is the ever-extraordinary Andy Aim.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Just Andy, but she likes doing this. But we're we're here for another episode, and this time we're going to be speaking about this concept topic, imposter syndrome. But we're going to speak about with a bit of a twist today.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Keep it spicy.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Gonna keep it spicy, and we're gonna start as we always do with our street interviews.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I get imposter syndrome every time I look at social media. Everyone else seems so impressive.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Every man in my family is a doctor, so when I I qualified, I was comparing myself to them constantly.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I think I've had imposter syndrome in every job I've ever had.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Firstly, you had a bit of a spicy way to start this with quite a provocative question.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Are you ready?

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Never am.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Is imposter syndrome even real? Do you want context or do you just want to go from there?

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Is it real? Is there context as to like what made you even ask that question? Yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

So there's this brilliant speech, commencement speech. I've seen quite a lot doing the rounds on social media. And she talks about this concept of bicycle face. Have you come across this?

SPEAKER_03 1:26

No. I think you've talked to me about this before, actually, but go on.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Save the good stuff of the podcast, aren't you? Now when we have conversations, I have to be like, no, it's too good. Yeah. Only telling you if we've hit record. No, no friendship, just for the reels. Um, so bicycle face was this real phrase that was coined when women started riding bicycles. So there was this shift where we went from the penny farthing, huge wheel at the front, tiny wheel at the back, quite hard for women to ride, to the kind of two-wheel bike as we know it. And what happened was more and more women were riding bikes, wearing trousers. This gave them more freedom, more empowerment. And around towns and villages, these posters started to go up, talking about bicycle face, this affliction for women, which is very tense, serious face, red cheeks, breathlessness. And it was this whole concept that was kind of created as this pushback to women's empowerment with bicycles. And the argument as it relates to imposter syndrome is that this term really became a thing in the 1970s when increasingly women were getting more rights, other groups were getting more rights that hadn't had them, and where it often gets used as a phrase is almost as if to imply someone should have imposter syndrome, or to put in someone's head that maybe they're not good enough. And so the question is A, is imposter syndrome a real thing? Or is it just like a bicycle face that we've kind of invented to describe symptoms that actually everyone has? Or and if it is real, is it useful to talk about or is it actually doing the opposite of what we want it to be doing?

SPEAKER_03 3:12

This might surprise you. But I think it's useful to talk about it, hence why we're speaking about it. I think we fabricated and created this.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Okay, tell me more.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Obviously, as a believer in Christ, from a biblical perspective, it says that God has not made us um with a spirit of fear, he's made us in his image, which is to love, to be good, to be and it's all these positive characteristics. So then I must have adopted the fear of imposter syndrome, but it wasn't in my nature.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

So I feel like I wasn't born with imposter syndrome as a kid, it got introduced to me along the way of growing up. So I feel like when it was introduced to me, then I started to adopt the fear of imposter syndrome, and then I had to learn how to manage it, reduce it, and eliminate it.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

It does.

unknown 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

What is imposter syndrome to you, actually? I want to unpack that a bit more.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

So imposter syndrome to me is a quiet voice in your head that can get louder and louder, telling you that you can't do something, that you're not enough, that you've never done this before, so you can't do it again. And I find that I personally have a relationship with the more confidence that I've gained, the more easier it is for me to quieten that voice.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

But when something's been new to me and I haven't, I'm not as confident or I have low confidence, then the voice can be higher. So it's almost like an inverse relationship with confidence when it comes to that syndrome. So a good example was I remember when um I got hired to work at this venture capitalist organization to build out their global accelerator program, the voice was getting a bit loud by saying, You've never done that before. You can't do that, you never worked in that space before. And because I went and actually did it, I then now had this reference which gives me confidence to say, Oh, great people can do great things when doing it for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

And then I can look for all of these other reinforcing examples of great people doing great things for the first time. That tells me that a voice was never correct.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Which by the way, I remember you saying you then used when you were a father, and actually there's a lot, probably a lot of people feeling imposter syndrome of like, I didn't get a handbook for this, I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

I'm not I'm not cut out for this probably in the early days.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Yeah. But but then the reason I say it's useful to talk about is because is it actually quite useful sometimes to have that feel, that feeling?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

So I think for me there's different elements to this.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

And I think one of the things I often think about is I think there are certain people who I wish had more imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Hear me out. I'm hearing you out. Hear me out. I think I know where you're going a little bit with this one. I'm hearing you out.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So I think Okay, let's let's look at British politics for a second.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Okay, unfortunately, but let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

A lot of our prime ministers have come from the same school, yeah, the same universities.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

And crazy, but yeah. Seem to have moved through life with no sense that they didn't know what they were doing, no sense that they're confidence, just quite confidence.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Overconfidence. Yeah, not quite confidence, actually, a loud confidence. I was very loud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

And I think I have often found myself feeling like I wish if they're gonna keep providing us with future leaders, I'd love Eton to start teaching a little bit more sense of limit, you know, not just your are limitless and your potential, but how do I know when actually and and maybe it's not quite I I don't want someone to feel their imposter, but I do want them to know actually I'm not the expert in this space and I need to go and seek help.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Yeah, I thought you were gonna go in this direction, humility.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So humility. And I I think sometimes I find imposter syndrome helpful because it's grounding and makes me humble to know actually, I don't know enough about this. Maybe I shouldn't be the one speaking about it. Maybe I should send to someone else who does know more. Maybe I should bring in someone else to talk on this topic, maybe I should go and educate myself more or signpost to someone who I do think actually people would be better listening to than me.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

But I feel like the irony of what you just shared is that often when you're too humble and grounded, you feel like you have low confidence because I'm not good enough to do this, I don't know enough about this, so it can so easily swing either way based on that feeling of confidence.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

And and that's where that's where it frustrates me, is because I what I typically observe is people who could benefit from a lot more humility operating outrageous levels of kind of power and influence. And then I often, in my work, meet people who I think are completely underestimating themselves. I'll give you a really real common example I see, one of the most common ways I see this show up. People go and fundraise. And there are people who find fundraising very easy, often because they share a very similar background to the investor, they went to the same university, they have worked at the same companies, they have similar language, similar body language, similar everything.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Much easier. And they have all of these like credibility litmus checks of oh yeah, I went there too. But what I often see is people who have insane credibility in their space, are genuine experts or have a really interesting but very different angle on why they understand a space. And I often think, oh, that's so interesting. What actually makes a ton of sense why you would then solve it listening? What a hundred percent. But what I often see when I'm editing their decks is they haven't put themselves anywhere in there, or they haven't put in there anything about what makes them right for this.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

So is there a difference between the word imposter syndrome and low confidence? Or are they one in the same?

SPEAKER_02 9:03

But I think the reason they're not doing it is because they almost have this imposter syndrome of feeling like they're not good enough. And you're right, it can cross- I don't think talking exclusively about imposter syndrome is helpful because there may be other things at play, but I do often think it's this sense of, well, what I perceive to be, and by the way, in the investment space, I'm not wrong, like what does get rewarded, and you know, we talk a lot about this as a theme across episodes. When we all the role models look the same, of course, you're going to internalize this idea of that's what capable and worthy looks like.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

But then you hear these quotes in the world like fake it till you make it. And being an imposter is faking it. It's like it's like it's like I'm a fake, I'm an imposter, I'm pretending to be. So how does that come in? Like when you hear that quote, like fake it till you make it, do you believe in that? Is there space for that?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

So hilariously, my ex used to be like, that's your catchphrase.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Is that what you're laughing?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

She was a bit harsh.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

But so so interestingly, but he's saying it in a positive way, in a way, he's saying it right.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah, yeah, kind of.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

You figure things out.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

I mean, I think he would also say that I'm incredibly like my motto is kind of like, yeah, we can do that, and then I'll work it out, have to do it. But I think one of the things I used to think when I was quite early in my career, so when I was just getting started at the first innovation consultancy I worked in, I was super young, super fresh, hadn't done anything. And actually, that's not true, I'd worked in startups, so I'd done something, but I hadn't done anything in the corporate innovation space. I was very new to that. And my, I remember being like kind of told at the time, like, don't tell them how old you are, like let's obfuscate that. Like and judged. Well, and also I think the company was like, we are charging you out at a nice day rate, like let's not let them move. And so I think for a long time I used to say, if you're not feeling imposter syndrome, it's a sign you're not moving fast enough. Because if you're feeling it, it's a sign, surely, that you've stretched yourself into a space that feels like a stretch. Yeah. And that that should be an exciting thing, that should be a symbol that you're pushing yourself, that should be a symbol that you have gone beyond your comfort zone, you're look you're going to be learning a ton in that space.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I think with age, I have added the humility aspect into that. So I think there is a, you know, young me was kind of probably overconfident on lots of things, and probably that did lead to worse outcomes. And also, in some ways, because I still felt the imposter syndrome, because it I yes, I was treating it as a positive, but I was still feeling it. Yeah, I then made some really common mistakes. So, like when we feel imposter syndrome, we don't feel we can ask questions because we don't want to show that we don't know.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Yeah, frailty, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

So I used to acronyms get dropped left, right, and center, and I'd be like, Yeah, yeah, DFCA, yeah, yeah, yeah. GDP G D. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And and so I would be Googling while people were talking if I could subtly sneakily. But half the time I was just I had no idea what they were talking about. And the older I've got and the more qualified in invert commas, the more able I feel to say, oh sorry, can you just remind me what you mean by that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And actually, because I'm not feeling like imposter, I don't feel like I'm not afraid to shine a spotlight on myself by asking a question. So that's where I feel imposter syndrome can be this really exciting, oh my gosh, I'm really living on the edge of my comfort zone, the edge of my capability, and that's stretching it and growing me. But on the other hand, it can be a I need to hide a little bit here because I don't want the attention on me that then leads. Because for me, imposter syndrome genuinely feels like when I feel it, it's the fear that someone's gonna raise their hands and go, yeah, yeah, and and called out. Not just found out, but called out.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

I feel like in in some ways it's it's lipstick on a pig, like it's like new language for something we always know, which is that no confidence, that feeling of being found out, of not really being able to be capable, yeah, or or yeah, and but but when you spoke about career confidence, it made me think like actually, in the absence of career confidence, I'm new into a space, I'm young maybe, or actually I'm in a next act of life, even if I'm older, um, like how can you really limit and control that feeling of imposter syndrome when it starts to bubble up? And I think one of the questions that I always love asking is um, what is true? And it's grounded in that in that question of what is true. So, in that example that I shared earlier of when I got this job to do work that I hadn't done before, what is true is that yeah, maybe I haven't done that work before, but I don't know if I'm gonna be good at it until I try. What is true is that this isn't at risk of my life or at going to jail, and actually there's a low risk here, and I could easily walk into a job that I was doing before. What is true is that this is an exciting opportunity and I'm excited about this space and I'm looking forward to working with these people. And as soon as I start grounding myself on truths, it starts to make you realize that actually this is not as big a deal as I thought it was. But if we stay in the land of assumptions, which is exactly where imposter syndrome feels at home, then these stories start to take over that are actually all grounded in assumptions and not truths.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I love that so much. I think that's a great question. And it almost brings me to a couple of bits. So when I teach presenting, I do teach a bit on imposter syndrome because I feel like it comes up so much when people try and speak publicly.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

And one of the things I often come back to is A, what is that quiet voice you said that's getting louder? I loved that framing. But I often ask whose voice is it? Because some of the danger is to your point of what is true, a lot of my personal experience of imposter syndrome is it's it's other people's voices.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Is that what we talked about in our other episode about borrowed goals and borrowed beliefs? It's like actually what's being internalized but adopted from others.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

And that's to someone might be in a throwaway comment to you, it's completely limited your sense of your capability. And so often I try and pay attention to whose voice is that, and just because it's true that they said it doesn't mean it's true.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

For you.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Or or just objectively as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

And the other thing I try I like as a kind of follow-on to that question is so what if it is true? Because I think there's something I've come across is like we can fight and wrestle with the thing that we're afraid other people will think.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Do you have an example of that?

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah. So I'll give you the best example actually. So the best, for me personally. I got told when I first wanted to become a coach and trainer, I pitched to for some investment from the company I was working in to train me up, and they said, Yeah, you can do it, but we think you'll only ever be able to do it for corporates because we don't think startups will ever be able to take you seriously because you've not started your own company. Because that was all of their way into this education space. And you hear it loads in the space. Oh, there's so many coaches and cretons who've never done themselves, and they don't have the empathy and they don't have the understanding. And and I a huge part of me respects that as their logic, and so that was really easy to internalize that my capability would always be capped.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Now, the truth is I've worked in a venture builder, so I've come up with ideas from scratch, I pitched them for investment, I have done stuff, but not the same path other people had taken.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

It's the only path they know that they're familiar with the only pattern they recognise.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Exactly. And because of the work I've done on accelerators increasingly, which turned out startups did find me useful, I've actually helped founders raise millions. So I have helped in that fundraising journey for hundreds of founders and I've helped raise quite big quantum of cash. And I shared a video that was a snippet from a talk I did at Web Summit all about uh the venture capital model, how to work out if you're the right fit for it, what venture capitalism is in good form. And if you'd asked me before that talk, like Hattie, what would be your worst case fear that someone would almost stand up in the audience and say, you know, oh, but you know, it would be like, oh, but have you even raised venture capital? That would almost be the fear of that that's what calling out might look like.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Because that was still the the kind of back of mind. Yeah, like this is my illegitimacy, I'm I'm I'm I'm adding value, but I can never add value in that way. And so I shared this quote, this, this reel on uh, and I still remember it was like I must have been, it was like over Christmas period when I was at my dad's house in France, and on a like nice holiday, living my best life, which helped, because someone then said that exact comment on the reel. And so I replied, and I replied super honestly. I said, no, I haven't, but I have done these things, and that's the perspective this is coming from. I've spoken to investors a lot, I work with investors a lot, I've helped founders fundraise, da da da da da da, wrote this whole message, not in an Aggie way.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Yeah, it's the truth.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

The person deleted their original question because they weren't actually there because they didn't want to believe in my legitimacy, they were there because they wanted to have a fight, they wanted to undermine me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

And imagine you internalize you didn't reply, and in your head, you're telling yourself all sorts of destructive thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

100%. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, this is gonna destroy my whole career. No, A, I've been honest about it, I've not hidden anything or lied about anything. I've actually not faked it. But also often I think when you live through that thing of someone asks a question you're most afraid they'll ask, yeah, actually turns out you have a good answer. Well, actually, also chances are you have a good answer. And this is this is what I ask founders to do.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

It's so important to back yourself, to be your number one cheerleader, to believe in yourself and have conviction. Because if you're just so impacted by what other people are saying, oh my gosh, it could be so destructive to your journey and to who you are. And this is self-esteem.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

And this is why I think people do need a bit of help unpacking where their value comes from. Because I think, again, if you've only seen a past done one way, I think that's often where imposter syndrome comes from. If you've taken a different route into something and everyone else you've observed, yeah, you know, has come from somewhere completely different, it's easy to have a million questions for yourself because you're like, well, they did it that way, and I've never done that.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

I think this is where it's difficult sometimes for me because I acknowledge that I have so much career confidence because I've done so much up at this stage of my life, but to really be useful to someone who has not done anything that I've done. Like, like I love, for example, in your material where you share about things like power posing, you know, and just doing the power poses. I think it was from a TED talk where this lady's talking about the power of power poses, but that physical act changes your physiology and it gives it a chemical reaction to just make you feel more confident before going in for an interview or starting a new job or you know, talking yourself out of that imposter syndrome. And I think there's little things like that, the power poses, visualizations, um, like grounding yourself with the question, what is true? That just helps you to manage that stinking thinking.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

And and I another thing I would add into that that I think helps me the most is to sit and ask where could value come from here and where do I bring it? And I don't have to tick every box. So this is exactly what I did the first time I got invested in by this company who just told me you can you you can only ever be, you know, taken seriously by these people. They brought in a pitch coach, he was amazing, he knew me super well, so he'd observe my energy before how I delivered. And I thought he was going to spend a ton of time on like my body language or how I'm projecting my voice, blah blah blah. No, we spent 90% of the time on my not even two-minute introduction to myself because he picked out so quickly it doesn't sound like you because I'd basically I'd literally taken a template of someone else's sides and been like, okay, they've had all these startups, they've all these logos. How can I make mine look like that? Exactly. Yeah, and I didn't quite have it, so so it was kind of like I'd like twisted and turned it and like crunkled it, and it it felt like an overcompensation. So, in that I literally was trying to like over deliver something that I didn't really feel like me. It wasn't any of my personality, and increasingly what I've realized over the years is actually I've I value now very different things in myself than I did then.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

And actually, what was really helpful over the years that I would almost try and give to someone much earlier in their career now is can you start to work out what is valuable in you from different angles?

SPEAKER_03 21:46

And I've got a good friend, AW, Miss Amy Widener, and she keeps something called a win bank, where it's basically her mini journal where she actually just writes down anytime she gets feedback, congratulations, someone's loved and experienced. She's put on to anytime she needs to remind herself of who she is, she returns back to that win bank. And I love that idea of having some sort of way to just get yourself back into the space of reminding yourself who you are and what you do. And the second thing I think is really important relates to our environments episode of who are the people around you.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Like who are the people around you that can remind you? Like, oh, this is what I'm thinking. What do you think? Andy, remember when you did that? You can absolutely do that. Andy, this is right. This sounds just like you. Yeah, yeah. This is right up your street. And sometimes you need that, but you need to go to the right people for that and not just anyone for that. That's not something you just post in social media and hope that any stranger's gonna. You've got to be like intentional around who you go to for that encouragement.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

And to see the transferability of I think is really important.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

And it it also strikes me back to that first episode we ever did, and we asked that question of go and ask friends what comes easy to me but hard to other people.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah, I love that exercise.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Uh, and I think I I told the same story then, but very brief reprise, because I think it's helpful.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Please.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

I one of my old colleagues who I'd worked with for a lot of years, when I when I went freelance, we had lunch, and he said, I think I've got a kind of job you'd be great for, not a kind of full-time job like a freelance gig. Uh, and it was with a bank, and it was like, I can't remember what they were doing, but it was it was hyper-specialised. And I said to him, I just don't think I can know enough enough about the the sector, the subject matter expertise to add any value. And he turned around and went, Your value in this context, I'm not suggesting you because you're an expert at that. I'm suggesting you because I think they'd benefit from the energy you bring to help them solve it.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

And where imposter to know, I often get asked this by students, founders, do I still get imposter to know? Absolutely. Typically, where it comes up for me is around deep subject matter experts. So when I'm working with someone who's in the I do one of my clients is in the space sector, and I'm like, okay, you guys are literal rocket scientists. I have no idea what's happening here.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

And you're not afraid to admit that.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

But I used to be. Again, back to the imposter syndrome. I think you've got a signal that you've you're in a good place with imposter syndrome when you're actually not afraid to admit, I don't know. And what I what it took for me to get through that imposter syndrome and why it shows up now less, is because I've changed how I see my role to something that actually I know I can add value on.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Absolutely. I love that, and I think that's important is knowing your strengths and knowing where you can add value. And in the absence of understanding your strengths and values, that's when it becomes quite difficult because it's like, what do you hold on to? 100%. So that's when the voice is almost given permission to get louder because you actually have no, I guess, hard truths or evidence to hold on to in terms of like these are the things that that make me me. And I remember when I was younger and I would apply for jobs, and I know that that they didn't interview me because I lacked this certain qualification or experience, but they don't realize that I I know I can learn that thing. And I'm actually so good at this that that is the easy part for me. But they wouldn't give me the opportunity because the CV was a limited version of viewing me. Where if you had even like a few hours of me, you would realize very quickly that I can absolutely do that job and I can bring energy to that job and I can figure that out and bring the team together. And there's so many ways I could add value. But if you're gonna judge me by the CV, then you're gonna miss out.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

And actually, we were talking to um we ran a breakfast recently with kind of recruiting leaders and people and talent leaders, and one of the interesting things came up is that some of the organizations we're working with are doing amazing work to try and change it so that what recruiters see isn't a CV. It's so for example, if it's a creative role, it might be that you can send TikToks, it might be that you can share a mood board, something that shows like I'm passionate, I'm excited. Yeah, and I think so. If you're if you're young, I would definitely be looking at actually where can my passion and my excitement to learn be what sets me apart. And as you get older, then you start to to your point about Amy's win bank, what are the patterns in there? Are people saying, you know, Amy is so she's so thoughtful, she creates such a safe space, she's so fun.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

If she's heard four or five times, I should pay attention to it.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Because I I would for you, I'm gonna make a guess that in your testimonials you get a huge part of it is about the space you create for conversation that no one else has had. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

And so I'd say that's a that's a value that if you were going into a room and you knew nothing about that room, nothing about the sector, you're bringing that's what you're there for.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

But you know, sometimes you can be dismissive of feedback because it doesn't resonate with you, it's not what you wanted to hear. Oh, so true. So when you even shared like energy, I know that's a piece of feedback that you get even till today, but actually, there might have been a time where you might reject that because you don't understand how to interpret it. How do you mold it? How do I what's energy?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

You know, and you don't see it on a job spec.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

You know what is actually a great example of this. I did the there's a free um personality test called 16 personalities, and it's based on Myers Briggs. Myers Briggs has some real issues with it, you always caveat that. Yeah, from a scientific lens, and and I think some uh kind of questional backgrounds from the people who created it, so caveat, but I find it helpful as a tool because it's free and everyone can have a conversation around it. When I first did mine, it came out as it's like a the entertainer, and she's like, it's this woman with like maracas. And I was like, Are you frigging kidding me? I wanted to be intellectual, yeah. I wanted to be like the genius, the the the like because so much of my what I saw in myself is like I'm academic, I'm you know, I'm I'm I want to get into the information, I wanna but actually if I look at what brings me joy and where I probably bring the most joy, yeah, I I am the entertainer. And actually now I have to be careful that when I'm running workshop, I don't judge it by how many laughs I get because that's bad teaching. Um but I but actually if people say in a you know Hattie was so engaging, it was so fun, that is me.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

And I think this is what people this is what a lot of companies struggle and why there's such a need for guessworks and for Hattie's because no, because when it comes to learning experiences with leaders or with team with pupes children in school, people struggle to make it memorable for the right reasons because they struggle to make it entertaining and fun. So so that's the actually the biggest thing that people struggle with. Like it turns into content overload, death by PowerPoint, boring tick box exercises instead of a fun, engaging experience that's memorable for the right reasons. So that value add is everything. And and actually Why do I choose Hattie over these other seven providers? That's why.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

But no, 100%. And I think this is where it's it's really helpful if you're whatever job you're in, whatever you're creating, we have to know where the value sits. Because for me, that's the only real way we break down the debilitating parts of imposter syndrome, yeah, is not to try because I think what happens is we try and argue with it.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Reason.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

And and the problem is we're reasoning. So your first point is so true. Sometimes we're reasoning with something that's just false. So maybe we can dismiss that. But then sometimes we're reasoning with something that is true. Like I've never done this thing before, I don't have an experience of that, I've never been in rooms where I'm the only person who looks like this, sounds like this, is like this. Those things could all be true, and of course, that's then gonna give you a sense of like, well, those things are all true, yeah. And and then I think we've got to find a different angle in that says I'm still gonna value that there's a different path I could have taken.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah. And it's interesting because um I listened to a podcast the other day by the founder of Fanatics, and Fanatics is like this big e-commerce platform that provides like a lot of the a lot of the fulfillment and e-commerce management for like the NFL, MBA, like Premier League, probably use them as well for the kits and stuff. But it's like one of those white label type services behind the scenes. Um, he's done really well in his life, but um, as a kid growing up, he wasn't good in school. Um, he struggles today to even remember the alphabet, like on paper, like that, but he was great at sales and authentic connection. So even as a teenager, he he earned his first million at 16 or 17 from buying and selling, like I think it was ski goods and then trainers and then apparel. And he just was a really good deal maker and salesman. And I'm listening to this episode, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm like that. I'm not oh, I want to get into deal making. Oh, and I've put into an AI tool, like, oh, like put aside what you know of me today, actually. Given my core skill sets, very similar to this guy's what kind of deal making roles could I get into? And I often complain that AIs um have too much like confirmation bias and encouragement and motivation, but in this case, it was actually really helpful for me because it was like, oh, you shouldn't get distracted because what you're doing now is so impactful and you are the product, and this, and actually, that is what I need to hear rather than these three. I was just getting so excited from something that I had heard, which was a podcast. Yeah, yeah. I I should stay true to my path and just feel inspired, and that's okay, and parking at that. And I wasn't exactly imposter syndrome, but I could have been getting this could have been me getting distracted instead of staying focused on what on my core competence.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

But and it comes back to we've actually just run um an accelerator programme for dyslexic founders with Virgin Startup. Love that was amazing. And the the the amazing thing was we were literally getting feedback from participants. I I was crying in airports because I was getting these WhatsApps from the trainers telling me what some of these founders were like, or screenshotting what they'd shared. And a lot of it was about if you're dyslexic, you're often made to feel so dumb in the way that schools I think they're getting better, but definitely if you're you know a dyslexic adult now you're academically like like doing well. You're sick, you're lazy, you're stupid, you're dumb. All of these things that you internalize that is actually just about the system being harder for you and you not getting the right support. And a lot of these founders were coming through this program, and we did a ton of work to redesign all of our materials, restructure the programme. We didn't nail everything, there was definitely still stuff we could have done better.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

But it wasn't sure the effort was appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

And I think the effort and the space and and the the feedback we were getting from people was saying, This is the first time I've ever felt like I this was a strength, not a weakness. I love that. This is the first time I've recognised the skills that I that come easy to me, but like the stuff that was coming back through was just the impact you wanted, that was your desired impact and the feelings that you wanted to generate. I and actually, and so many people, it was about this. I was made to feel so stupid, so dumb. I was told I was so stupid, I was so dumb, and I'm starting to see it differently. And so the other thing I guess is a nice challenge to this is who around you has imposter syndrome that you could help unwrite.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah, what role can you play in someone else's space to help them overcome it? I love that. And not just by shooting it down, yeah, and not just by positive toxic was it toxic positivity?

SPEAKER_02 33:13

He nailed it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

But not like but actually like speaking the tr that truth back into them, holding the mirror up because of what you're aware of and what's obvious to you, but sometimes they may forget because they're going through it.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

And that might also include like, yeah, you're right, Andy, like you haven't done that. Like, that's fair. Like, is it worth investing in doing that? Would that make the difference? But is all is that really what's blocking you, or is there something else you bring here?

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Might be controversial, but I feel like when we speak about entrepreneurs, when an entrepreneur feels like they can't fundraise, I feel like imposter syndrome sinks in.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

But also that feeling like I need to, I need to, I need to successfully fundraise in order to succeed. If I don't fundraise, actually that impacts people's perception of me as a business owner. Yeah, yeah. Like perception of me succeeding on this journey.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Well, three things there. One is they're not wrong, because there's also a thing of if you can fundraise once, it's easier the next time. So if you want to do this multiple times, there is a truth in that if you can fundraise once, it's easier again and again. But there is also this interesting thing around neurodiversity and increased um sensitivity to rejection. Uh, I think it's called RSD rejection sensitivity disorder, which often comes from if you're different and you get told a lot of the time growing up, you get rid, you know, I remember like in my year three, I was being told I had a sieve for a brain because I my working memory was not great and I struggled with it.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

It comes with self-fulfilling prophecy if you're hearing it too.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

So you're just getting constantly rejected and told like you're not good enough, you're da da da da da. And so I think there is also a world where A, that would be natural for anyone to be feeling like a lot of rejection. But if for any reason it could be neurodiversity, could be that you faced uh, you know, a ton of rejection because of your you know socioeconomic background to your point, like maybe your CV kept getting rejected because you didn't have something on it that they were looking for, then that's also all gonna heighten it and build this narrative of well, I'm just not good enough.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

That's what I'm being told, that's what I'm being shown.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. I think with the entrepreneur one, it can be hard sometimes because a there's many entrepreneurs we meet who perhaps shouldn't even be fundraising and should focus on building an an actual profitable business, or should question whether they should build this business in the first place if they're so dependent on external funding.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Uh, I mean a hundred percent true. Like I'm a big believer that that is one of the good things that AI is doing is A, meaning lots of people don't have to fundraise that you used to have to, and you can genuinely get to profit pretty early and therefore grow from there. Uh it's bringing down the kind of investment costs hugely. But B, you don't have to go to the investors who look for a certain thing. You could go and find investors who actually do invest in your space, or you you know there are other ways around it that aren't just kind of venture capital, which has a much higher rejection rate.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

I agree. So before we round up and come up with some prompts, can we just talk about rejection therapy? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

While we're on the rejection topic. Okay. Do you know what rejection therapy is?

SPEAKER_03 36:18

No, but I'm really interested.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

What what would you think it was?

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Uh I would think it's therapy for people after that feeling of feeling rejected.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

It's almost that, but the the therapy is to get rejected.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yeah. So intentionally.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Intentionally, go and get rejected, Andy.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

It's not fun. But it can be if you do it my way. Is this the demand to skin here? As a non-accredited therapist, yeah. So basically, opposite to uh everything I've already said about rejection builds up, there is a world where we can build our tolerance. So I think we can end up in two different spaces. So if you're on the like super sensitive because you've been rejected a ton, maybe this isn't right for you. But if actually maybe you've not been rejected that much and you're facing rejection, finding it hard, exposure to rejection can be really helpful. And so I'll give you an example. I used to work at Wimbledon, and my job was to go and do surveys of the crowd. And I tell you what, people do not want to do when they're at Wimbledon is a survey.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Yes, understandable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

And so I would get rejected a lot of the time very rudely. I was like 16, and I was getting rejected hundreds of times a day, and like often told to swear off.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

And the first few times a day, I was I was mortified, I hated it, I felt awful. By the end, I would like to dance for a do a survey and I'll do a little dance. So, you know, I just I was kind of unstoppable because I was like, I just don't care, you can reject me. And obviously, different things carry different weights, and when it when it has a bigger one, you develop that thick skin, yeah. But you develop a thicker skin. And so, my thing I now set all founders before they go and try and talk to customers, actually, because often people are scared that customers are gonna reject them. So often they don't want to go. So I often tell them, okay, for two weeks, this is your challenge, Andy. I want to hear a report back. Two weeks, every time you go into a shop, the only exception, the only exception is a charity shop. I don't want you to do this in charity shops, but you're gonna ask for a discount in every other shop.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Interesting. I could do that.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah, right? And worst case, you get no discount and they laugh at you, you look a bit cheeky. Best case, you get a discount. But you're starting to expose yourself to like, hey, I can be rejected and it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Yeah, it's like telemarketing and how good it is for sales skills. Yeah, because you're getting rejected.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

It's like a safer, it's a safer rejection that doesn't hit your core of who is.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Discount one's a win-win for me. It's great. I pick I win on the rejection side and I win if I get a discount side. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

I'm literally, it's like full foolproof.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

I might get bolder and go into more expensive and more luxurious stores after a while.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

You've been wearing Burberry today. I'm looking forward to seeing what you get your next Burberry discount.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Self rich as it is, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Let's go. I'll I'll come.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

Fun fun car shopping trip.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

We'll report back. Uh sorry, before I went on rejection, you wanted to go somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

I wanted to loop back to the beginning of the pod where we're speaking about um is imposter syndrome real? And if so, is it is it helpful, useful to us? Um, I didn't get to ask you the question, so I wanted to really ask you after this conversation we've had, like, do you feel like imposter syndrome is real?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

And if so, is it useful?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I think it's real. And the reason I think it's real is that I see so many people that I think are so intensely capable and brilliant and have so much to add, who are constantly scared to put themselves in positions where they're gonna be called out as not having the right thing, not being good enough. And as an outside observer, I'm thinking, you have so much to offer, you're incredible. And and I think I think where I come to is there are two parts to imposter syndrome often. One of them is systemic. If you're the often the only woman in a space, for example, uh that can get so demoralizing. Yeah, of course. Um I went recently, it was so funny, I went to literally a founder event. It's like four founders, it's called Rare Founders Demo Day. And I kept meeting these, I'm sorry, it was all older men. And it over the course I've never had it happen so many times in one day. I would literally say, Yeah, my company is does this. And we're at a founders event. Yeah, I don't feel like the company I founded does this. Yeah, and so many men would be like, Oh, cool. So, like, is your boss here too? And I was like, sorry, what is happening? What is happening? And and that could increase a sense of like imposter if I wasn't confident of oh god, they don't think I seem capable of coming across this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and so, in those senses, that as a system pushing that back on you, I think we need to realize that so that we're not internalizing that we're being weak for feeling it.

SPEAKER_04 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

And then, second to your point, if you're getting more rejection in the VC world because there is bias in the system, like let's not make that your fault and let's not make you feel bad for feeling that.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

But then there is the personal thing of I've internalized these narratives and I can change some of them and I can challenge some of them in the ways that we've talked about. Yeah. And so that's where I find it really constructive. So for me, it's it's important that imposter syndrome doesn't become a kind of reason to talk ourselves down more or to not shoot shots because we're worried about it coming up. It's something to work through, something to label so that we can change it rather than labelling it as a write-off thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

So as as we wrap up, one quick micro question. Um do you feel comfortable selling yourself and speaking about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Increasingly.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Okay, what's helping what's helping to increase that feeling of comfortability?

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Doing it more.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Reps in the gym. It's it's muscle memory. I think well, that and what we talked about were just working out where I'm valuable.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

But the more I do it, the less cringe it feels.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Yeah. I feel like I need to get better at it.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

I think Do you find it a question? Do you find so if you were going, so a friend took me to a an event with loads of founders when I first started my other podcast, not my first guest. And she was like, You should tell everyone about it, it's great. And she was late to it. And I got there, I'd met loads of people, and she kind of came around. She was like, Oh, so had she told you about her podcast? And they were like, No. She was like, You literally came here to talk about your podcast, and you've not told a single person. I felt that was really cringe. I felt really uncomfortable doing that. Yeah, and I probably wouldn't still go into a setting and be like, Oh, what do you do? Oh, yeah, I have a podcast. I like I would feel awkward with those things. So I'm not there yet, but on the things where I've done the most reps, oh, I have a company that does this because I've tried to sell it so many times. It's so much more comfortable. So I think pushing through and getting the practice.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah, I've I find, especially in those networking events and being around people, I like to intentionally curveball it and start with interesting conversations so that we can drip feed who we are and what we do. So I've I find it really uncomfortable with that introduction where it's like who are you and what do you do? And we're starting from this basis in our relationship when when I'm in a room with someone that I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

You're you're right. I agree that's a poor connection. And I think what I'm always talking about is like if a perfect time came up to share, would you avoid it? Or would you, if it was really natural, would you say it or would you kind of hide it?

SPEAKER_03 43:40

I feel like I I would say it, but um I'm all I I know I'm already saying a part of what I do. Yeah. I'm never sharing my entirety in that moment. You know, and depending on where the conversation goes, I might share a little bit more and a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Um I think that's And you downplaying it as you do it. Uh probably, yeah. I'm probably just Too humble about it rather than talking up like what your friend was tr trying to do for you. And I find when I'm with particularly American audiences, sometimes they oversell yeah. And I think I think there is a I'm leaving a conversation like, oh wow, they really spoke it up. But when I digged into it, this is what what this is what it really meant. And I thought, okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

But also they didn't really connect with you, I think, in that case, like they're just trying to so I agree with you. And I think the other thing that is helpful is like go around with friends and get them sell each other, share each other. That's nice. That's nice. Build a bit of tolerance, see what they say. What do they say? Oh, that's interesting. Every time Andy talks about this, he talks about this. I never mentioned that in a sales. So yeah, I think hopefully some practical bits in there.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Yeah. I've got a prompt actually that I think could be helpful. Um when managing imposter syndrome and thinking about like what could this mean for your future? And it's um it's three alternatives. So there's one alternative where, like, okay, say I don't do this thing and I just carry on with how things are today. Let's say it's for with a job, um, what does my life look like in 12 to 24 months, the next two years? If I choose to step away from this thing but do something similar, like I'm moving from this job to this job, same kind of job, just different company, different environment, different people, what does my life look like in the next 24 months? And if I go into wildcard, actually, if I step away from that and just tap into what I love doing and completely lean into this alternative future three, in 24 months, what can my life look like and how do I feel about all of these three options? And the answer isn't always actually go to the wild alternative number three. It could be, you know what, there's elements of number three I need to do, even in my job number one now, which I'm actually grateful for, and I realize that I'm actually in a good space.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Oh I love that. And I think the other a couple of things I'd add in sometimes it helps me to ask myself, what would someone who is completely mediocre, but actually very overconfident, be doing that I'm not doing? And I don't have to do it in their way, because to your point I might feel overly salesy, but actually, is that a signal that I should be doing more? Because I'm currently being outcompeted by someone completely mediocre who is willing to overstate their competence.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

That's such an interesting perspective.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Right. You know, I I think there is that whole argument to be had. Uh, and I think then doing that real sense of where does my value sit in unexpected places.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

And I think the final one for everyone as well is just to ask yourself what's the worst thing that can happen.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

And and like genuinely, if someone stood up and said, But have you really done this? Everyone else would think they were an arsehole. They're not sat there thinking, Oh thank God, we were all thinking it, they're sat there thinking, what an absolute nad about the person in the audience.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

And so again, your worst that can happen if it happens, chances are you're coming out of it fine.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yeah, you can definitely bounce back. Look, but we want to hear your views, hear your comments, and even get your views into our newsletter as well. So please do engage and share your perspective when it comes to imposter syndrome. Is it real to you? Is it not? Is it helpful? Is it not?

SPEAKER_02 47:13

And how have you got past it or started to?

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Awesome. Thank you, Hey.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Thanks, Andy.