Untangling Life

Episode 13: How To Stay Positive When The World Is On Fire

• Hattie Willis and Andy Ayim • Season 1 • Episode 13

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0:00 | 47:44

What do you do when the world feels like it’s on fire? In this episode, we explore how to stay hopeful, grounded, and proactive in a time of constant bad news, algorithmic negativity, and digital overwhelm.

We get into why so many people feel stuck in doom loops, how social media and the attention economy are reshaping our minds, and why endless scrolling can leave us feeling helpless rather than informed. We also unpack the emotional whiplash of modern life - seeing war, climate disasters, and political chaos alongside entertainment content - and what that does to our ability to care, act, and stay present.

Plus practical strategies you can use today, including how to retrain your algorithm, reduce unconscious phone use, create intentional friction with technology, and build healthier habits around information consumption and real-world connection.

In this episode:

• Why the modern world can feel overwhelming and hopeless
 • How algorithms are optimised for negativity and outrage
 • The psychological effects of doomscrolling and digital desensitisation
 • Why quick dopamine hits from technology can reduce motivation and agency
 • How to intentionally train your social feeds toward balance and nuance
 • Tools and apps that help reduce compulsive phone use
 • The power of long-form thinking, dialogue, and deeper research
 • Why collective individual action still matters in times of crisis
 • Practical ways to stay engaged without burning out

Journaling prompts:

• What content leaves you feeling energised, informed, or hopeful - and what leaves you feeling anxious or powerless?
 • What small change could you make this week to create more intentionality around your phone or media consumption?
 • Where in your life could you replace passive consumption with meaningful action or connection?

Apps, tools, and references mentioned:

 • ClearSpace
 • Brick
 • FOQUS

Books and references mentioned:

• Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

Subscribe to the newsletter for full journaling prompts, resources and reflections from each episode: https://substack.com/@untanglinglifepod

SPEAKER_04

Okay, welcome to another episode of the Untangling Life Podcast. I'm your co-host, Andy Aim, and I'm here with the hilarious inspiring I love how I was like keep going. Motivating.

SPEAKER_05

Am I supposed to say my name?

SPEAKER_04

Soon's probably MBE.

SPEAKER_05

Oh yeah. Hattie Willis.

SPEAKER_04

There we go.

SPEAKER_05

I feel like I was supposed to say my name, and I was just enjoying the praise too much. I was gonna think that's gonna be a whole episode of Hattie Praise. That's the difference enough. If I start praising it, Andy he interrupts really quickly, being like, it's just Andy, and if it's kind of like awkward.

SPEAKER_04

No thinking, not thinking, I'm okay.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Take a flowers, Andy.

SPEAKER_04

We're smiling, but we are speaking about quite a tough topic today.

SPEAKER_05

Oh yeah, today. Well, smiling through the tough topic is kind of the topic, right? So the topic is how to stay positive when the world is on fire. Ah, the world is on fire. I mean it is on fire. It's a bit of a dumpster var at the moment, isn't it? If we're being real.

SPEAKER_04

I wanted to It definitely feels like that in the UK. But like it's sharp here in the UK, I feel like.

SPEAKER_05

I just feel like it's everywhere. I don't feel like I look anywhere and go, this is going well.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, in any major economy anyway, yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_05

Well, yeah, and and and just we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_04

We'll get into it. Let's let's go to some street interviews.

SPEAKER_01

How do you stay positive when the world is on fire?

SPEAKER_00

Get off social media and out into nature. The internet is not a good place. The news can be traumatic when it impacts you directly. Don't be afraid to switch off.

SPEAKER_01

Um, if you find out, let me know.

SPEAKER_04

So should we start with like with saying the world is on fire, the world is broken? What what are the kind of big themes and threads here?

SPEAKER_05

Um there's quite a lot of war going on.

SPEAKER_04

There is.

SPEAKER_05

There is mass destruction of the planet, and it feels like we've passed so many tipping points where we said we couldn't pass.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, from deforestation to climate change.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. The and and and and and we are already seeing how disproportionately that's going to affect lower income countries where and and then we're also seeing a kind of attached migration crisis, yeah, which uh then leads into far-right populism, which terrifies me.

SPEAKER_04

Uh we are seeing There's even a lack of geopolitical leaders that that are inspiring that we should look up to right now. There's a lack of leadership in governments across the world.

SPEAKER_05

A hundred percent, and I think it it feels like there's hope and then there's immediate disabusement of that hope.

SPEAKER_04

Disabus of it. Disillusion.

SPEAKER_05

I guess the pattern personally I'm seeing is often I will go onto the news, social media, and very quickly feel completely hopeless. You know.

SPEAKER_04

Do you think this is a fair experience across generations?

SPEAKER_05

I think yes. And I think our uh yes, but and one of the reasons, not the only reason, but one of the reasons is uh algorithms know that negative attracts more engagement than positive. And so negative news stories do better, they get higher click-throughs. Same on social media, but pretty much every platform is geared towards the negative, and so I think your algorithm quite quickly learns. What idea do you get moved by and feeds you more of that? So I think if you're in certain generations or certain socioeconomic backgrounds or or so certain groups that it knows you're gonna be more afraid of this thing, it's gonna feed you more of that thing. I think.

SPEAKER_04

It's interesting, like when you think about like what has disproportionate influence over you nowadays. And I was learning about Substack recently, the writing publishing platform where you can get paid subscribers to to be um as a writer or creator. And it has more Substack has more subscribers than the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, The Guardian, The Times, all of these like media empires. And it just shows that even in terms of influence now, probably writers on Substack or YouTubers could have a disproportionate more disproportionately more influence than the modern day media um like the BBC or what it used to have in terms of the only source or verifiable source.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and I think in some ways actually Substack is I actually really like it in lots of ways. I think it's a bit the antidote to a lot of what we're seeing because Substack tends to be longer form, more thought-through articles. And I think I really like that because I think a lot of what we're seeing elsewhere, even like historic in in kind of historically where we got our news from, it's becoming more and more clickbaity and more and more short form, and therefore it's harder to get the nuance and the complexity. And I do think in a world where it feels like so much is breaking, I think the last thing we can afford to do is lose nuance. Because the more black and white we make any of these issues, the less able we are to solve them. Because actually they're all really complicated.

SPEAKER_04

I think there's something here as well about the nuance of um like going to seek your own food versus like waiting to be fed. Like when I'm on social media platforms, whether it's Substack, Instagram, TikTok, if I just rely on my feed, I'm gonna get fed more and more of more of what's in this little bubble and this tunnel that it thinks that I'm narrowly interested in and I don't want outside inspiration. But if I seek out information and search more, then I can actually almost like find the hidden gems and the beauty within the platforms, whether it's Substack or YouTube or Instagram, but it's actually in that behavior of am I being fed by just what's in my feed? Or am I seeking out food and going hunting and looking for information? And I think there's an unhealthy relationship today where we're we're actually focusing more on our feed rather than going to go and seek out.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and and and we end up doom scrolling, right? Yeah, and I think there is this point of you can train your feed when you give it attention, whether that's time spent on a video, whether that's like, whether that's a comment, your feed is learning, you will give this attention. I'm gonna give you more because it's an attention economy. They make money by having your attention to then convince advertisers I have their attention.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And so I think there is this point. I I one of my greatest successes in the last couple of weeks is I managed to train my feed that for like two days, all I got shown was bad bunny content. Yeah. And it was joyous. You know what? It was like everything was like everything was a skit that he'd been in. It was part of his performance at the Super Bowl, which was one of the best examples, I think, of an antidote to doom was this pure exhibition of joy and culture. Live experiences. Exactly, and and and and authenticity, and it it it felt like we were getting a real eye into something that he wanted to share because it was joyous and hopeful.

SPEAKER_04

And isn't it magical that so many people who don't understand Spanish still love that performance?

SPEAKER_05

I mean, literally no idea what I was nodding along to, and just obsessed. And so I think there are these kind of joy moments. I think one of the things that I was reading, and you know what, the tendency, I almost just said I was reading an article, and I wasn't reading an article, I was reading a carousel Instagram. So we we we do this a lot, right? We we transpose that we've read more on something than we have. But it sounds smarter as well, and it sounds like but even I thought it, I was like, oh yeah, I revered about it, so it must have been something longer. No, it was like a short carousel. But it was this idea about the the danger we have currently, one of the dangers, is that there is so much cognitive dissonance that we are putting.

SPEAKER_04

Can you explain what that means for us for our listeners?

SPEAKER_05

So so essentially in this context, what I'm talking about is you can literally be on a reel that is a charity appeal where you are watching horrors unfold and you're you feel the only thing you can meaningfully do is donate, and you might see five of those a day, and at a certain point you're gonna run out of donation capability, and then you scroll on, and and also you sometimes you don't know, should I donate to this? Is it is it legitimate? Where's my money actually going? There is there are all these questions when particularly when and people do when there's a big cause that comes up in the news, suddenly it's really hard to know where to meaningfully give your money.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But you so you'll scroll from something that is incredibly brutal to watch, and we scroll on, and then someone's doing a funny TikTok dance. And and the the whiplash of going between that kind of content, yeah, and and and it's not even like a content. I I really do mean like whiplash of like your brain is reverberating in your skull from how much it's having to am I happy, am I sad, am I terrified for the future, am I momentarily distracted? Oh dopamine.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And and it is therefore leading us to be incredibly desensitized to the stuff that we do see because A, we feel completely hopeless in it. When something happens, I think on social media, it feels like your choices are speak out about something you often don't know enough about, but you want to do it immediately so you don't look like you don't care. And or make a donation. Maybe write to your local MP, but if it's happening in other another country where you're not electing officials, okay, tricky. So you can basically either amplify or fund are your kind of two options. And they don't feel like enough. When when you're faced with this level of horror, those things feel like a complete drop in the ocean. And also it feels like there's too many causes to do it for.

SPEAKER_04

So so we're having to constantly weigh this paradox of choice but endless choice is almost leading to paralysis in a way.

SPEAKER_05

100%. And it feels like individual action is the ask, but how do you keep caring about everything with the same height when when you're seeing so much that's horrifying you? And and I I think a lot of us then end up in complete paralysis to your point. You don't share, you don't post because you're afraid of getting it wrong, or you you know, it feels like if you start you'll never stop, and then it's it's this kind of how do I keep up with it almost?

SPEAKER_04

Do you feel like environments like school and work should be healthy escapes and breaks from like social media and all of this news being in your face all day, every day? The temptation even of looking at your phone.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, and no. I think what's tricky is because we live in but the butt this isn't the tricky part, but because we live in we're lucky to live in very like multicultural spaces. Let's say, you know, we've recently we both have a friend who is Iranian who has been sharing how impossible it is to be showing up at work not completely haunted by what is happening to friends and family. And and I think there is an element where, you know, and I think when George Floyd was murdered, a lot of people were talking about this, and actually it was I think one of the good times the conversation happened about we're just expecting black people to show up for work and not have any sort of trauma attached to this incredibly brutal thing that everyone's just witnessed that is gonna hit very differently if it looks like you, and I can be horrified by it and I can find it heartbreaking, but it it's not gonna hurt me in the same way. But we're asking people to still show up at work and okay, can you see my screen? Let's share a PowerPoint.

SPEAKER_04

And so I think there's a relationship between the two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And I I think there is an I think that's actually part of the challenge, is that I think we can want those spaces to be a retreat, but I think the reality is we're asking people to hide a part of their identity and hide a very real like a very real reality. No, yeah. And actually that is really impossible. And then yeah. And we're worried, and then we're wondering why they aren't showing up perky.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, I understand that. And um I also want to talk a little bit about like neurodiversity here as well, because um, I I do think that's a lens that's important when we think about the dope being hit and social media and how you know someone with ADHD may process things differently to someone without ADHD or on a different part of the spectrum to ADHD. So I think sometimes we use this catchful approach of like, oh, social media, we're all on it, we're all just scrolling through, but actually it's a different experience always processed in a different way for different people.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and we were talking about this actually before we started recording. Yeah. When we were in can I share what we did when we were in Ghana?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. So when we were in Ghana, because one of the biggest traits I'm saying, absolutely, I'd actually not know what we should say about Ghana, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_05

Well, uh, one of the biggest traits of ADHD is that you like to diagnose other people with ADHD. So I have ADHD, and so I desperately want everyone to be ADHD too. So I've tried to desperately tell Andy that maybe he was. And we we sat by a pool and did a very unofficial test together. Yeah. Uh do you want to share your results?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't have ADHD.

SPEAKER_05

And and actually the way you kind of score is you have a kind of naught to five on these questions of how how strong do you experience?

SPEAKER_04

And I was like five being very strong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And I was finding it like genuinely was almost blowing my mind how low Andy was able to score because I was like, but surely everyone's at least a three. I'm a five, but surely, how can you be a one? I don't understand. And so, yeah, the the there is it's interesting, we've got two ends of the couch on that kind of and and ADHD brains struggle with dopamine creation and dopamine craving at a different level.

SPEAKER_04

And I was um sharing with Hate before the pod as well that like I've never I I definitely use social media, but I've never felt like I've had a it's had a stranglehold on me, or I need to install an app or use a vice or some way of managing my time on these apps. Um, if anything, I find that the primary reason I usually go to these apps is to promote. Yeah is to self-promote my work, spread more love and light into the world, to share more of what I'm doing. Um but it isn't actually because you what on the dope means. Yeah, no, not really. And and I know it's even even nowadays, actually, if I'm on there, like I'm not what what am I looking at or looking for? Not much. I'm like DMs from friends, yeah. Like definitely not the feed. And if I'm at if I'm going out for dinner with like the missus of the family, the phone might not come out for five, six hours, like before the dinner, during the dinner, after dinner, and it's not it's not a thing for me. So I'm I can relate to and understand what people are going through, but I don't relate to it in my in my daily experience. And I'm wondering, like, did I did I miss a beat? What what was it? Yeah, I'm I'm wondering where it was for me. Like, where did I did I where where did this relationship I guess break down for me in terms of like me and social media and spending time as much time on there?

SPEAKER_05

I think I mean I think it may be that you have a health healthier relationship with dopamine.

SPEAKER_04

But I wonder why. Like I'm trying to I'm trying to look at root cause almost like that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I mean some of it might be your brain chemistry, yeah, some of it might be that actually, you know, you do have you are getting it in really healthy places. You know, you're exercising, you've got routine, you're spending time with family, you're getting that kind of oxytocin. So there's like different chemicals that our brain craves. I'm gonna mess up what they are, so I'm not gonna try and be the chemist here. But one of them is oxytocin, which is like the closeness uh endorphin, no, is it endorphin? I don't know. Closeness chemical, which is like often so whenever I hold one of my godsons, I I literally it's like I can feel my oxytocin levels rising. I'm like, I'm so happy and so calm. And and it does chemically get released. We're kind of meant to get it from babies because then we want to hold them close and look after them. But but maybe you're getting that closeness from your family, maybe you're getting healthy levels of dopamine because the point of dopamine, and again, not a scientist, but have been reading this great book called DOS, which is all about the different chemicals that we crave and how we get them.

SPEAKER_04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05

And what it essentially argues is we're supposed to earn dopamine. So it's basically chemically, we're supposed to kind of build it up by doing hard work. Yeah. I built a fire, dopamine. I've hunted some food, dopamine. Um what actually happens is that very cleverly a lot of people who are designing technology have found very quick ways to release dopamine without any earning.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so it breaks that cycle, that natural cycle.

SPEAKER_05

Well, so so so the concept he uses is you kind of should have this factory where you're producing dopamine, but all that happens is you're using your dopamine supplies. So if you've ever lain in bed scrolling and then had no motivation to move, that would be an example of actually you're spending your dopamine, but you're not earning it. So maybe you have a healthier relation. And and ADHD does struggle with that more. Um, we're not as good at creating dopamine and then and then we seek it in higher risk. I mean, again, I'm symphoning AHD, but those are elements of it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I find it fascinating. I do. I I mean even when I think about like laying in bed if I'm not watching anime and I talk about it a lot.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we love anime.

SPEAKER_04

Like then the foot the phone's not even a feature for me.

SPEAKER_05

I think and I think that's where we so so I think on a pro- If I wake up in the morning even What's the first thing you do in the morning?

SPEAKER_04

Pray. Pray, brush my teeth. Um and then if I do check anything, it's very quick, like like a Gmail, yeah, LinkedIn DMs, basically. It wouldn't be feeds, it would be DMs.

SPEAKER_05

Interesting. And we've um WhatsApp we've talked before about the fact that you've turned off your notifications.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, maybe that's what it is. I just hit the nail on the head. Because I have my notifications off, I I've never experienced um the notifications going off and dragging me back into apps. And I noticed that because when I'm in an app and I get almost like a notification, say, uh a message, a DM on Instagram, ooh, has it always done that? But it's because I'm in Instagram is showing me that I've got a message. Yeah, so I realized that the other day actually when it did that, that oh, I'm not used to that. The only notifications I have is on my banking apps, and that's from a danger perspective.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and then I think my Bible app, because I just haven't turned it off, so when someone's commented on something, that I get a notification, but yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_05

And I think some of the uh spoiler alert, we should have probably said this up front, we're probably not gonna solve the fact that the world is on fire in this episode. And so one of the things we I guess wanted to do is share some practical things that might help us survive it in this kind of doom loop and get out of the doom loop.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And I think there is this point practically Notifications is definitely one as well. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

A hundred percent. And I think choosing where our attention goes to, I for me, there's this cycle where what is happening is we're seeing destruction of everything. So we're getting increasingly desensitized, we're getting increasingly demotivated because we're spending dopamine very unconsciously and we're seeking it at a much higher level than we and we've had have access to it at a higher level than we ever had before. And so we get into this doom loop for the days. And I think w for for me, there is a point of okay, how do I get out of what this then causes? Which is a complete paralysis. And and I'm essentially seeking distraction from how bad it is. And so that often leads me into I'm gonna go and do something that feels completely frivolous, it takes my mind off it, whatever. I'm seeking distraction in dopamine, and what that's leading to is I'm not taking any action.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. The way your attention goes, your energy flows.

SPEAKER_05

I love that.

SPEAKER_04

I just had to look up to say did I say that right, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05

You did. And I think I'm gonna butcher this. But I think we are all addicted, apart from Andy, to this flow. And so I think of that kind of the serenity prayer from alcoholic. Anonymous, which I always misquote.

SPEAKER_04

I have to have that in my old house actually.

SPEAKER_05

Do you know it then? Because I always misquote it. Um grant me the I can't remember it, you know. Something about the it's the something to it's about like let me change the things I can change.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Make peace with the things I can't change and the wisdom to know the difference.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It's something along those lines.

SPEAKER_05

Sorry for butchering that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Uh but but I I think that is what it comes to me as a kind of how do we how do we stay positive? Yeah. Rather than just switching off, which I think is is completely the natural that I know I'm leaning into. Almost feel this dissonance. It happened really recently. I was in Miami in the sunshine on a rooftop bar, and I'm on my phone looking at what's happening in Massachusetts with ice, and I'm thinking, I'm in the same country, my lived reality is so completely different. If I scroll on, I'm gonna get a completely different reel. What is how do I engage with this in any sort of meaningful way? And so I guess what I want to put as a challenge to us is to explore one for the things you really do care about, what could we be doing more of so that we don't feel completely disempowered? Because I think that Massachusetts example is actually one of the things I have found most hopeful in the last few months of how actually individuals together made such an impact.

SPEAKER_04

You know, as you're talking, I I'm actually thinking there's a there's a cost in a trade-off, regardless which way you go. Yeah. Because I I I'm not as hooked into my phone, I don't have notifications, um, but I miss out on a lot of current affairs. You know, you you're today talking about the brick and a few other things, and I hadn't heard of these things. And sometimes they come up in conversation and sometimes they don't. And the cost of me not being so on it is that I miss out probably on a lot of what's happening in the world.

SPEAKER_05

And just for context, what we're talking about where the brick is because it's a device that keeps getting advertised to me on Instagram, literally, it's a device that you tap and then you can't use certain apps on your phone. So for anyone else wondering, that's what that is.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, a friend of ours has one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

She's a big fan.

SPEAKER_04

Um but yeah, there was an essay on AI, which I know we're gonna get onto, but I hadn't seen that essay until you shared it in the group.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I was out of the loop.

SPEAKER_05

So you're actually right, there's a point in which we can withdraw so much that we then are missing and not able to take action because we don't know what we should be taking action on.

SPEAKER_04

I think the there's a positive side of that in terms of original thinking and creativity, is like my thoughts are not influenced by a lot of what people have read and consumed because And you're protecting your peace? Protecting the peace. Yeah, and then I guess when it comes to focus time, like now I'm I'm writing a book in the background. I I feel quite comfortable spending hours writing or thinking or you know, going back and forth or getting some support with Chat GPT and or AI with restructuring. I feel comfortable staying in that creative space and not feeling every 20 minutes like I need a break or I'm fidgety or anything.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, which is something I super struggle with. Yeah, I've got a lot of people. I either hyperfixate and then I can lose hours, which is great, or I'm yeah, super.

SPEAKER_04

I've got a friend with dyslexia who used to use the is it the Pomodoro technique where like every 20 minutes the timer goes off and they take a break, and they they would have to really be intentional around okay, let me go for a walk, let me get fresh air, or if not, they'll stay at the desk and and go onto the phone or onto Sky Sports and watch football or whatever it is, and then before you know it, an hour's gone past.

SPEAKER_05

Well, and I find the pom Pomodoro technique doesn't really work for my brain because I find it for me at least it is useful in the sense that it chunks things up so they feel more doable, which helps the kind of ADHD. Like I can earn a bit of dopamine, but actually for me it it risks interrupting when I'm getting into a flow and what I need to be training my brain is getting into that flow. But I it can be really and again, I think the whole point of this is try things that work for your brain, yeah. Bit by bit and like play with it, experiment.

SPEAKER_04

I agree.

SPEAKER_05

So, okay, so so from your side, let's start with the things that we do want to take action on and practical things that I guess we're gonna give ourselves permission to try. Again, just to be crystal clear, I do not feel like I'm nailing this, and it's one reason I want to do this episode is not because sorry, we were a bit mean with the title, we sounded like we had the answer. Spoiler alert, we want the answers, so tell us what you're trying. But I think we need to give ourselves permission to try stuff, otherwise, yeah, there's no hope.

SPEAKER_04

It's all experimental, we're all figuring it out at the same time. Um, I think one default to start from is say I turn to my phone a lot and I know that I struggle to break that habit. How do I train my algorithm so I'm getting fed more positive content or nourishing content content that actually better for me or expands my mind? So, like how can we do that? Who you follow?

SPEAKER_05

So, one I really uh one account I actually really like is called Ground News on Instagram, and they will show you articles and what they show you is with an article um how represented it was in different kinds of press. So I'll show you if a story was much more shared by left-wing press and right-wing press, or if it was neutral. And I find that really helpful actually to balance critical thinking. Why wasn't this shared? Interesting. I wouldn't have seen this because it's maybe not in the papers I default to. So following things like that, I find for me is actually quite rebalancing. It doesn't mean it's happy news all the time, but actually, some of it is more positive than I'm being led to believe because of what I'm reading.

SPEAKER_04

Or even like what our producer Cass shared around like when you find a story that's really interesting, get taken it off social media and going to investigate and reading a longer form article around that same topic.

SPEAKER_05

Or listen to a podcast or watch a long video.

SPEAKER_04

Or, you know, a podcast, or watch a long video, but reading around the subjects. Like at the moment, I'm looking at um in-house audio systems, very random topic, but it started for the renovation. Yes, it started on Instagram, and then it went into YouTube, and then it went into reading a little bit more about, and it's probably about a 40-minute adventure with the missus just reading about home audio systems, random topic, but it was necessary to get to a level of competence where it feels like, okay, I feel like I know the first steps we could take on making a decision here.

SPEAKER_05

And I actually think we're gonna touch on AI in a minute, but I do think that is again something we talk on in the the separate kind of how to use AI episode that we or an episode that dives into that a bit more. But we talked about how do you get different um different sources. I think that's a big thing, is if you're and there's a book that I actually really like it's obviously not flawless, but a book called Utopia Fr no, that's a different one. Is it Utopia Freeless? No, there's another book all about how good we'll put it in the show notes because I'm gonna butcher it, but there's a book about the world is better than we thought it was. Nice. Um something for optimism.

SPEAKER_04

Which I I believe in actually even now, to be honest.

SPEAKER_05

And it they basically ask a load of people a load of questions about you know what percentage of people living in poverty, what percentage of people And people were more pessimistic than the way it actually was.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but I think that's what the social media loops do. It is true.

SPEAKER_05

And I think we need to not ignore what's still incredibly broken and needs our attention to fix. But so for me it's it's that okay, if I really care about something, I need to get out of the the fear of looking into it more. Because I think I get almost like, oh god, I don't even wanna, you know, and it's and it I think it is easy to be like, oh I don't know enough about this, so I'm not gonna s talk about it, but I'm not gonna really just gonna try and scroll past it. Yeah, and actually I do think it's important that we go and read more and get different perspectives and try and understand the nuance. Again, these are normally very nuanced, and I tend to be quite black and white in my thinking. Like, I want it to be this guy's a goody, this guy's a baddie. I want it to be this is the right, this is the wrong.

SPEAKER_04

I want that's interesting to hear because I I feel like the historian in you probably loves a pro, pro and con, a for and against, um, understanding both sides to come to an informed opinion because that a lot of historical study, I'm sure, is is in that in that lens.

SPEAKER_05

So David Mitchell, uh brilliant kind of actor and comedian, came to our college and did a talk once and he studied history and he told this brilliant joke, which I want to pass off as my own, but I will credit him. He but he was like talking about, you know, and what got one of the biggest laughs because there were a load of historians in the audience, but you know, he was like, Oh, you know, and I remember, you know, writing my essays, and you know, basically what I learned is that like whatever the question is, you know, what is the biggest factor in the demise of da-da-da? The answer is always wells a bit of both.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Well, it's a bit of both. Normally, bonus points if you can think of a third reason they haven't raised. And that is kind of how you learn to to answer. But but I think we're being trained out of that, right? Yeah. We are being trained and we're being trained. I think this is the other really dangerous trend I see. We're being trained out of being able to have conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Because it's all, and again, super guilty of this. It's all about moral uh high ground. Yeah. Moral high ground and like groundstanding and like wanting to be seen as on the right side of history, on the right side of something.

SPEAKER_04

And we are increasingly unable- Or not wanting to be cancelled, it's very cauderized, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And therefore I'm not able to admit I don't know enough about this, but I would love to learn more. And and also we're not humble enough, or would we get defensive then if if in the process of learning more I do do harm because I say something bad, I'm then maybe going to double down and go, well, that wasn't my intent when actually I have caused some harm, so maybe I need to interrogate that a bit more. We're not able to have those conversations in a way that holds that there's an education that often needs to happen, but there's also responsibility on the person being educated to not put that all on someone else.

SPEAKER_04

So I think there's two things that you mentioned with this point. One is around um really searching widely around what you want to make up your feed, you know, and maybe you look at it through different categories from a relationship perspective, from a money perspective, from a learning perspective, from a um curiosity perspective. Just that your feed is really rich and made up of different entertainments, probably one of them for many of us as well. But your feed is really rich and it's made up of intentional people that you follow, unfollow. And um actually that's probably a second point. Like from time to time, intentionally unfollowing people, that's okay. You don't have to follow people for life. Yeah, like maybe there's a seasonal reason and they've outlived that, and now it's time to unfollow and nurture the feed. And just by going through your feed and unfollowing even every day over a week, you get to now retrain and rethink about what your feed looks like. Um, and then the third thing I think you touched on, which I liked, was social media is part of your research stack. So actually, it forms a part of how you look into a topic, learn about a topic, find out about a thing. So it's not the sole like I just watched this two-minute clip and now I feel like I have an opinion. No, it's actually part of how I inform an opinion because that leads me to the curiosity to learn more.

SPEAKER_05

Because also, you know, we had this recently, right? We did an episode all about financial mindset. We shared a clip on social media that had in the episode, we'd actually talked about very clearly like this just doesn't apply to everyone. There's a base level of like Mazda's hierarchy of needs where you just do need more money, and that is critical. Without that, like step one. If we don't get there, we can't talk about the rest. Then we went on and talked about, but there is a point where actually we have this more means more mindset, and actually, does money buy happiness? No, we put on a clip on social media about does money buy happiness, and so many people in the comments are kind of coming in going, oh well, you know, money would buy me happiness because I need it for these reasons. And I'm thinking, oh, those are so legitimate. But it but you exist in this impossibility of like I can't caveat everything to the nth degree. This is a clip from a longer podcast in which we actually have said that.

SPEAKER_03

So true.

SPEAKER_05

And obviously, some responsibility sits on how we frame the caption, everything, but people don't. There's all this is the other thing, people don't read captions.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So even if you give I know so many people who've who've shared the context in the caption almost as like a test, people don't read the captions.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

We just want this short form, I want to react, I want to be mad, I want to judge this thing, good, bad, for me, not for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And and that is what accelerates conversation at the moment is this like need to disagree.

SPEAKER_04

But it's it's so crazy, Heidi. I'm just thinking if this was a social experiment and we had like 50 people in this cramped space here, and we treated it as if let's treat this like it's our Instagram reel. And it means that I'll go to Heidi quickly, talk to her, didn't like that. Okay, I'm gonna go quickly over here, I'm gonna like that, okay. I'm gonna go over here quickly. We're not gonna have a conversation for long. I'm just gonna comment and I'm gonna go over. It would be so crazy to physically engage with people how we digitally engage online.

SPEAKER_05

100%. And also there is a point where there obviously have to be limits, but there is a point where I cannot like what you're saying and I shouldn't not listen. And I shouldn't not be able to have a conversation. That conversation shouldn't even just me trying to convince you are wrong.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Because I think so much of where we're going with politics is like this increasing polarization.

SPEAKER_04

Polarization, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

And and and I do think that like we need to be able to call a spade a spade. There are loads of people on the right wing who are just incredibly racist and believe in theories that like are just terrifying that they're you know, replacement theory. I'm just like, if you're talking about replacement theory, we have an issue. I'm not gonna reason you out of that. And so I, you know, there are points where it's like, no, no, that's just a racist theory.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But I think there are these kind of areas before that where people are being increasingly radicalized because they feel they can't express a view, and actually we need to be able to have a conversation with those people so that we're not losing people who actually are more moderate, aren't necessarily coming from deep racism and wanting England to be white.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. We should be able to have dialogue.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. And and I think I think we need to be able to hold and again, if the world feels increasingly dumpster fire, yeah, I think we're all reacting from a hotter and hotter place.

SPEAKER_04

Rather than holding opposing views or different views in a conversation. And um, I think there's something there that's systemic as well, around you think about politics, for example, where the system and the business model also incentivizes a certain behaviour so that certain parties can get into power. And the same is true for social media, isn't it? It's like there's a business model that's centered around advertisers, and therefore I need your attention to day trade for those advertisers. Substack's a little bit different in that respect, where I actually is more centered about the user and the creator and the writer, and you subscribe and to support the people that you would that you really appreciate. Um, but we almost need a higher level system for ourselves as individuals before we like almost like surrender to these systems that exist, whether it's in politics or in social media, it's like what is our operating system and how do we go at a rhythm that makes sense for our body and how we operate and who we are, whether we're ADHT, whether we're neurodiverse, like what works for me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's what we need to figure out and be able to like support people with like what are things that that really work for you.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think it's such a good point. And I think I think there are I think we need to also it's so easy to feel like these things all need systems change, and therefore I can't change anything.

SPEAKER_04

Paralyse and again, can't do anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So we can A, I think there's some things we can do to take back agency. So we talked about go and actually like explore different opinions, go and have more conversations around it. If you feel I think there is a really good point of if you feel really not comfortable talking about something, go and do some research and then try and have a conversation and you actually build confidence by being able to have a conversation and explore it from different angles.

SPEAKER_04

And even the way you have the conversation. 100%. You know, I've just learned about this topic. Look, I haven't read around it, but this is what I've heard. Like let's, you know, like you can paraphrase and just frame the conversation a certain way rather than you're coming in hard that you've got a hard truth.

SPEAKER_05

And and and and with the humility to be able to say, Oh, that's a really interesting point. I never thought about that, or oh, actually, I'd love to go away and read more. Is there anything you found helpful? Or like, I'm gonna go and do some research on that. And often you can say something, I'm gonna go and do some research, and they might recommend some things that you can try rather than me going, you know, Andy, can you give me an entire book list on like climate change because you're an expert? It's like maybe I can find some entryways myself. We get a bit lazy with this as well.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

So I think that's one thing. What else helps you practically?

SPEAKER_04

Notifications for me, but the reason that I like where we start is because, regardless of notifications, at some point you're gonna find yourself inside of the apps. So when you're in the EPS, we have to create and train the feed that we want. Um, and I think we need to think about like searching more rather than relying on our feed. Like, let me go in here with intention to look for certain entertainment or certain creativity or certain inspiration or certain knowledge. So I think using it more as a search engine rather than just a feed also could help us.

SPEAKER_05

That's a really good point. I think the other things that might help people practically, if like me, you struggle with well, if like me, you sometimes say to yourself, I have no self-control, I have no discipline around this, let's reframe that a little bit more gently to ourselves. Because actually, like this is just the best minds of our generation have spent a lot of time making sure that this is really hard to fight. I say this when I teach workshops, like let's put our phones away because they're like they're just designed to distract us, like we don't want to like be fighting that battle. So there's there's two things that have been really well like practical things you can do. One is so I have an app called I actually use one called Clear Space, it's not an ad they can sponsor us if they'd love. But I actually love it and I'm a fully paying member because it does a few things. So so whenever I want to use an app that I've put on there, I first have to press a button, it opens up this ClearSpace app. Then I have to breathe in, breathe out. I mean, you don't have to breathe in now, I can't tell. Yeah, yeah. But there's a pause.

SPEAKER_04

Intentional friction.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, real friction. Then a quote slowly loads, and the quotes make you think about it. Um, and I actually really love the quotes. I often find myself going back to them. They've been, you know, one of them I I love is live every day of your life. Love that one. And then you can go onto the app, but when you go onto the app, you can choose one, two, five, ten minutes. And so every ten minutes you have to do that. So you don't get stuck in it for an hour. Great, and also breaks to feed and taste. And what I found it stopped me doing, so why I originally originally got it, was I would be on my phone, and even when I like deleted something from my home screen or I had the Apple, you know, screen time controls, I would just ignore them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And this actually doesn't really help, actually, hasn't it? Does it like oh I spent five hours on here? Yeah, I feel guilty. Thanks for letting me know that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and and even the ones that kind of block it, that it's too easy from a UX perspective, too, it's too quick to ignore it.

SPEAKER_04

I guess that's why the brick ignore that physical.

SPEAKER_05

Well, yeah, so so so so the ClearSpace is an app, and it's like anytime I want to use one of these apps, it will apply it. And and really good if you have ADHD, because often what will happen is I'll go onto an app and I won't even realise I've gone onto it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So for me, this is really sad, but it's often like LinkedIn or it used to be LinkedIn or emails because I was like sales as it's gives me dopamine. So I'd be like, has anyone messaged or any like work coming in? I would get excited.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, but you're not in the feed.

SPEAKER_05

No, no, but this would be to go onto one of the apps. So I've I've actually got it across LinkedIn, my emails, my Instagram. And what then happens is like I'll often suddenly look at my phone and I'm like, how did I even get on here? Like I didn't mean to do this, it's completely unintentional.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And then often in the process of trying to then get in, I get distracted and do something else. I have to restart. And that helps me make sure I'm like, do I really want to do this? It's already annoying. Right. And then there is a I'm gonna give everyone, please don't hate me, Brick. So Brick is a a company that does this. But um, I recently was teaching on uh Imperial's We Innovate program for female founders. One of the lovely founders on it, uh they're working on a really interesting and we'll we'll um we'll put their startup's name in the show notes. Um they work on this from a social responsibility perspective.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05

So you and I could share screen time. So every day we have half an hour where we can spend on social media, and if I use 20 minutes, you only have 10.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

Which I love as an idea.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, that's interesting. Shared accountability, but also that guilt of I don't want to let you down, I don't want to feel like I'm taking up all of our time.

SPEAKER_05

So for some people, I think that will work really well where you're genuinely trying to stop how much time you spend on something.

SPEAKER_04

Especially in a household, that would be interesting.

SPEAKER_05

And then if you want to stop, so for me, I actually it's more about I want to stop certain use cases of when I'm doing it. So because I'm now single and I live alone, I often, when I'm watching TV, I'll also be playing games.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_05

And I'm not enjoying the TV show. And I recently actually set myself the challenge the other weekend, a show I love, Lincoln Lawyer, was on its like new season. I love Lincoln Lawyer. And I was like, you know what? I love this show, and I used to watch it with my ex. And so I would give it my full attention because when I was ever I was watching something with him, it was really like deliberate. Let's watch the like we're spending time together, even though we're watching TV, we want to discuss it, we want to both be present. Of course. You being on your phone isn't the same thing, yeah. Which was helpful.

SPEAKER_04

I thought to learn to honour it in the same way that those shows not there.

SPEAKER_05

That social accountability really helped me. Without that, I've struggled. Yeah, and so what I did with Lincoln Laura is I actually put my phone further away, like put it underneath something, and I was like, I'm gonna try and watch a whole episode and just enjoy it. I love this show. Yeah, anyway, I did it, I felt really good. I really I like picked up a load of details I'd missed, I found it much more emotional than I otherwise had been finding. So I was like, I need to get back into this. So I've been really tempted to buy a brick, which is like a little it's like a little square that. you can kind of put on, you know, you can put it on your fridge or whatever. And the idea is you tap it physically and then it shuts down certain apps. You choose which apps you can't access. And then if I want to access them, I have to stand up, go and tap it. So the idea is it's this kind of physical. I can't just sit down. Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Imagine leaving a home house in the morning and tapping it. You can't access your apps until you come home.

SPEAKER_05

100%. So you can do it. So so again Cass, our amazing uh content queen that does all the editing for this podcast and all the content. She uses it you know before she goes on a date night, things like that. So with the ADHD where that's a challenge. So I love that.

SPEAKER_04

It's all habit forming behaviour isn't it you get to a point where you get so good at it that hopefully you don't even need to use it after a certain point.

SPEAKER_05

And the problem with the only problem with Brick is it's expensive. It's like 50 quid I think. And this founder of the the social accountability I told her I really wanted to get a brick and she let me in on a secret which is account for you. No no no it's this app called Focus F O Q U S which we'll put in the show notes. It's a free app completely free to use and it allows you to turn any NFC device so NFC is like a little basically it's like touch technology if you think about your content. You can turn anything into a brick. The app is free to use focus is free to use and then you can literally buy on Amazon just search like NFC card NFC tag that you normally get like 50 for two pounds. I mean they're super cheap. Buy some for your friends give them out everyone can use them basically programs it so that that behavior is in it. And they're super easy to program this app focus will let you program it and set it up and then you can tie it to your fridge you can put it wherever you want and do whatever but it'll cost you about 50p rather than 50 pounds so you're welcome and if you do choose to do that can you record it and just Yeah I'm actually gonna do I've I've got my tags just arrived so I'm about to do it so I'll I will share it. Yes and also then you can make it look cute because you can choose your tag. So yeah we'll we'll put that we'll share that um so those are some practical things that I do to try and I guess get me off the environment that is making me feel so pessimistic.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah I know as we wrap up we usually talk about prompts um but I would really love to hear what other people do to manage their time especially on social media especially in this world of Doom scrolling because I'm I'm open to ideas and I feel like I could even inspire another episode to be honest.

SPEAKER_05

And I would also love to hear how do you stay not just how do you manage your time but how do you stay positive without falling into toxic positivity because I think what we have talked about is like there are really real issues that we're trying not to get desensitized to so what we don't want to do is just yo-yo back to like we just have to feel great about everything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Actually what we want is to be able to engage meaningfully take action and not get stuck in this paralysis but and to keep hope that our individual actions can keep going.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So so for me it was a lot about reading about what's happened in Massachusetts about how individual action completely decentralized leadership was able to make these amazing resistance protests and actually stop it overly relying on one person. So many people took amazing action and I like completely inspired and very hopeful that that can create change. And so I would love to know for other people what are you doing what actions have you found help beyond I guess donating beyond just sharing on social media where where you care about a cause or where you're trying to stay more positive and optimistic about where the world's going. So so yeah please do write in and tell us we would love to hear and also if you're watching on YouTube Spotify where you can comment anywhere you can comment please do tell us in the comments so other people can see your ideas because I think it's lovely that this community can share what's working.