Episode 19 - Is It A Smart Choice To Go Dumb? with Julian Feurer

Guest host Julian Feurer, a freshman journalism student at the University of Maryland, joins the podcast to discuss an emerging trend of Gen Z and millennial consumers opting for "dumb phones" over smart phones. We also branch out to touch upon social media use, artificial intelligence, and how "Grandma hobbies" are making a comeback.

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The original "Is It A Smart Choice To Go Dumb?" article by Julian Feurer 

Julian Feurer LinkedIn

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was thinking about how when your camera on your phone uh makes a shutter sound, and your phone doesn't need to make a shutter sound. Like we we all crave that nostalgia, and I don't I think we're all kind of freaking out about this. Like in a way, I think a majority of us are like, we need to take a step back. I think these companies are obviously, of course, they're very selfish and they're very much focused on what you know, how can I make the most money and whatever. I think that we've lost the plot a little bit. I think it used to be about convenience. Now I think it's just about who can get here the fastest and you know how much money can I make. And I think ever since we have transitioned from, you know, making the world a better place to making the world completely technology, I think that is when we started to lose it. We started to have that disconnect between the consumer and the company.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I'm your show host, Evan Buck, and as always, remember that the buck stops right here, because we are looking out for you. Today's episode, I have a special guest with me, and we're going to be talking about uh the subject of an article that she wrote. Is it smart? Or is it a smart choice, rather, to go dumb? And that title seems a little bit counterintuitive, but we'll be delving into just exactly what that means here in a few moments. But before we get into the meat and bones of this episode, I would like to introduce my uh co-host, my guest host for today, uh Julian Ferr. Uh introduce yourself to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, I'm Julian Fuhr. I'm a student, journalism student here at University of Maryland. Um I'm really excited to be here and to talk about my article. Um it was a quick, quick write, but it I think it has a lot of meaning, and I think that there's a lot to be explored. So yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Yeah, of course, and thank you for joining us. Uh the show is always more engaging when we have uh, you know, not just me droning on for like 45 minutes to an hour or an hour and a half. Um the conversation is is is always good to have. Um yeah, before we get into your article, um I just I'll just mention to the show audience uh, you know, all this information that we talk about will, of course, obviously be in the show notes. Um but as we were talking about briefly in the pre-podcast discussion, uh, and Julian wasn't aware of this, but uh your article actually ended up on the technology section of Google News. Um and so how how does that make you feel? Uh like because I assume this is like your first you know published piece.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So Yeah, that is very exciting. That is so cool to hear. I'm also a freshman, so it is very I don't it's just very exciting to hear that. Like I worked, I did work very hard on this article. It is my first published piece. So to hear that it was on Google News is like really exciting. I didn't I was did not know that. So that is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah, totally. And so um just kind of walk us a little bit through your background. Uh like are you originally from Maryland? Um, what kind of got you interested in studying journalism and how how did you end up uh writing this piece? I didn't really look super um too much into her campus, but it seems like a like a magazine or some sort of news website on campus. So yeah, just kind of walk us through that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah, sure. So I am originally from Maryland. I live about you know 20 minutes out from Baltimore, so born and raised. Um my father actually was a journalism major as well. So he kind of introduced it to me when I was very young, like just journalism as a concept, as a career, and it kind of blossomed from there. I'm a very much a pupil person. I love connecting with people and I love to listen. So um I love to learn based on like you know, hearing from other people's experiences. It's just I love like putting that together, you know. Um, and so this article uh is written for HerCampus, which is a national um organization, and they have chapters for each university. Um I joined HerCampus just because I thought it was it's kind of a more lighter, it's not very much hard news. Um, it's very lighthearted and you can kind of as I'm a staff writer for them, so I can be a lot more free willed with what I write. And I chose to write about this article because an advertisement came up on my phone for a flip phone. And I thought that was so silly. And then I looked more into it. Yeah, I know. I was like, that is so silly. I'm sitting on my phone and I'm getting an advertisement for a flip phone. Um and I looked more into it and I realized that there are so many people that are my age and um and like you know, Gen Z and millennials, they're kind of like reverting back to dumb phones. Um, and I know we'll talk a little bit more about what dumb phones really are, but I just thought that that is I think it says a lot about our generation. I think it says a lot about just you know what kind of climate we're in that we are choosing in the world in that like an environment of like technological advancement, like to go backwards. I just think that is so interesting and has a lot there's a lot to be said about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, for sure. No, that's really fascinating. And I'm just like like the the early 2000s called they want their phone back. Like it's just such a full circle moment, you know, like you're getting this advertisement for what you know some might call a quote unquote dumb phone on you know, w whether it's like social media or just online. Like I think that's just really ironic and very interesting. Um Exactly. But yeah, that does lead me into my first question. Like, you know, what are these uh, you know, dumb phones? And because I'm sure people who have grown up like in the 90s and early 2000s, they have, you know, I'm sure fond memories like I do. Um I I I got a few years on you. Um but like I remember when flip phones are actually like all the rage, and more so uh like the keyboard phones. Uh I don't know if you remember those.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

I I I'm you know, born in 2007, I do remember my parents having those keyboard phones. So I didn't have one, but I remember like planting snake on my mom's blackberry.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Oh, that's funny. That's really funny. Well, and then the ones I'm thinking of too are there's the Blackberries, which are like more like the work phones, but they also had ones that they they kind of like you unsheathed it and it had like a full mini keyboard. Yeah, I've seen those. Yeah. I I didn't have one of those either. I was just young enough to where I didn't have one, but like I remember, you know, a couple of my friends having them. And the first one that I had wasn't actually a full flip phone. It was a it was rather unique. It was a touch screen phone, um, but it also like you you could shift it up or down to unlock it. So in a certain way, it was kind of a mix between a typical smartphone and uh a flip phone. Like I I don't remember the model. I I I it's gonna kill me now. I'm gonna like wake up at 10 a.m. and be like, what was that called? Um but it was it was it kind of on a nerdy level. Um it had a bunch of I I honestly feel like cell phones were so much better back when you could have like your own personal ringtones and um, you know, or songs, like you know, you could have songs for your ringtones. But the one that I had, the one that I had, um, it wasn't so much the ringtone that sold me on it, but it was the fact that when I brought out my phone and unlocked it, I could make a sword unsheathing sound effect. So like when I pulled it out and whipped it out, I'm just like shing, you know, and yeah, it was hilarious to me, and I loved it, but you know, just just teenage boy things. Um That would I I would like that now. I think that that would be silly now. I that would I miss that. Yeah, honestly, there was just there was something and you know, I think every generation goes through a certain degree of nostalgia and everything. Um but I do think like this is kind of reminiscent of the era of stuff like uh you know having the sword uh mouse clicker on those point and click adventure games. Um you know, there it's just there used to be a lot of like heart and soul put into um products, like even various, you know, models of the dumb phone, and now it just kind of feels very modernized and sanitized and I don't know. It's just that's a whole nother subject that we could delve into a whole nother rabbit hole. Um getting getting back to the main discussion. So um, yeah, what are these uh like dumb phone models? Because we kind of have an idea, I'm sure a lot of our audience has an idea of what they were back in the day, like before smartphones, but what are they now, like in an era of you know, iPhones and Samsung and Android and all these? And and and how are they maybe similar and different to the one, the original, the OGs from the 90s and 2000s?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Right, so yeah, so I talk a little bit about this in my article, but now in a world of like of people exclusively using touch screens, there's more of a spectrum of dumb phones. And dumb phones is a play on smartphones, so a dumb phone is like the reverse of that, um, which I've thought is kind of silly, but yeah, there's definitely a lot more of a spectrum. A lot of most dumb phones at their core, they don't have social media. That is like kind of the main like attachment point that like that main grab that people are interested in. Um, but there are phones where there are still like touch screen dumb phones where you can like you know access music, calls, texts. Um, I think that's the light phone. Um, and then there's phones that are of course that are like the flip phones that are classic, but now they have a little bit more of style to them, or they might have, you know, advanced the camera a little bit more as people like lean more towards that. Like there's a lot more um what's the word I'm looking for? There's a lot more versatility with them. Yeah, like functionality. Exactly, but they still offer that like disconnect away from social media or the internet. Um, so yeah, there's even companies like there's a company called Nothing Technology that has come out and they offer smartphones that are just not Apple. They offer a little bit more um like less of that like almost like clean, like like you were talking about earlier, how uh Apple's or Apple phones are like very sterile. Uh nothing technologies offers smartphones that are like break away from that, and they are a little they offer like less addictive, less sterile um phones. So yeah, there's definitely a lot more of a spectrum than what it used to be, which is just like you get a keyboard, you get a screen, you know. So now it's like you can have you could have a touchscreen dumb phone, you could have a flip phone dumb phone, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So yeah, no, and I think that's really interesting that there are so many different options that are being made by these manufacturers that kind of take uh the best of both worlds, I would say. It's like you can have some of the advancements in cell phone technology, but without some of the stuff that, you know, I I see a lot of people complaining about these days, especially pertaining to uh like social media or a lot of the older generations, you know, maybe not being as you know, hip or technologically advanced. I'm sure you've seen like those ads on TV about uh I think they're called like jitterbug phones or whatever. Yeah for seniors. So yeah, this kind of seems like it's uh a bit of a mix of both of the like trying to appeal to both of those sorts of crowds, like you know, both technologically like advanced people who have kind of had enough of being so hyper connected all the time, but also people who maybe they want a little bit of an advance, they don't want to go like fully back to the you know cell phone stone ages because they like you know having pictures or they like having like certain functions, but they just want to be a little more uh a little less connected, which I think is is a very fascinating um proposition. And I was also just kind of reminiscing in my mind as well about how like text messaging used to like I think used to like cost more money, like the more characters that you sent. And so that's why a lot of our abbreviations that we use all a lot nowadays, like LOL or BRB or you know, OMW, like on my way or oh my god, you know, like like it was for two reasons. One, you know, it would you would be charged by text or charged by character, but also with the flip phones, you had the alphabet tied to the numbers. So, you know, in order to get to C, you would have to press the one button three times, you know, one one one, and you get to to say the letter C, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Um But anyway, I guess from that question, it kind of uh leads to another question for me. Um why would you say has there been such a big movement away from smartphones, like back to these dumb phones? Uh what would you say are some of the main reasons that this is becoming more uh of a prevalent phenomenon?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, that is such an interesting question. It's something I really wanted to explore. Um, I think that there are two main reasons that I found in my research. One of them I thought was a little bit more shocking than the other, but um, as we know, the for like I would say the past decade, we've really had more research come out about the like downsides of social media and what they can do for a teen's brain or just anybody in general, how it can affect confidence and what have you, but it is so addictive. And I think people are just grasping on to any way to get out of that loop. Um, even with you know, in phone, like there are you know apps you can download that can limit your screen time, people still are able to find those workarounds, and I think by converting themselves to a dumb phone, people feel a lot less like they have an option. Like when you're holding your smartphone and you have an app that says, like, you know, you can't, you know, go on Instagram anymore today, you could just delete that app and go back on Instagram. But when you have a dumb phone, like you you have no choice, and you really have to like succumb to okay, I only have you know my phone texting and I can play some music. And I think that just people having only the bare bones is help is really helping them break away from that social media addiction loop. And I also think that a lot of Gen Z in general and millennials as well are trying to come back to what you know. I I I'm also writing another article on how grandma hobbies are become having a comeback.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Uh yeah, I've seen that too.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, and I think it's like that same concept where it's like we're trying to find more analog ways to find joy because we have grown up so much on screens that we are chasing that like serotonin boost from something outside of technology. And I think by us like picking up the dumb phone, we're saying, you know, we want to see more of the world and not be so connected to our phones because we grew up that way. We grew up on phones, and I think it's us just saying, like, we don't want that anymore. We want to break free from it. Yeah. And yeah, no, go ahead. I I didn't know. Oh, yeah, no, sorry, all good.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

No, no, you're good. Um, I was just gonna say that I find it really interesting that really one of the main reasons behind this move seems to be a like a restoration of agency, I guess you can say. Like it often feels like, especially with me, um, you know, I'm not I've never been one of those that like has to upgrade every iPhone or whatever. Like, I I kind of quite frankly view those people as very odd. Um it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, especially now that the iPhone models just really aren't that insanely different now between each model. Like, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to do that. I still have my good old iPhone 13, and I think we're on like the 17 or something right now. Um it worked perfectly fine. It's way more economical for me, and until it gives out, like, I'm gonna I'm just gonna keep using it. But I do think it's interesting that uh part of it is, you know, seemingly like kind of trying to disconnect from the matrix, so to speak, or like just really restore a certain level of control and agency that a lot of us have, you know, uh uh kind of passively given like a lot of these tech giants and tech companies and social media companies over the years. So it's kind of a way to be a little bit more intentional with how you live and how you act. Um but another reason also seems to be like the as you mentioned, like this idea of grandma hobbies and you know, just kind of longing for and you know, nostalgia for more of an analog world, which we maybe only have seen like in movies or you know, something that we might not have actually experienced for ourselves, you know, me being a little bit older, I can barely remember. Like pretty much my entire life I have lived with some form of, you know, cell phones, um, even though they didn't really become like widely, you know, adopted and used until I'd say like late 90s, early 2000s. Um you know, and I mean even a little before then, but like I I was a kid and I was very young. I I can't remember those things. Um, but I do find that really interesting that th those seem to be the main drivers. And so that did produce an uh, you know, another question in my mind as well, is with this uh you know, reversion back, like with a not insignificant part of the market starting to move back towards these things, how difficult do you think it is nowadays to get by in most western countries like without being hyperconnected, without being on a smartphone? Because I I can think of a prominent example of like our cars that we drive. Like we used to be able to uh spend the Saturday afternoon or two or ten, you know, just in the garage. Like you can go with your dad and just be under the hood and you know, under the car and like fix it yourself. You know, you used to be able to do that. Now with how advanced these cars are and the you know supercomputers that run them, like you almost need a college degree uh and you know a huge understanding of uh you know all of these electronic components to even be able to work on a car anymore. Like you the gone are the days of being able to work on your own car. And so with how connected our world is, um I also heard this story too about how a lifelong Dodgers seasoned ticket holder, um, he was recently denied entry to the ballpark because he doesn't have a smartphone, he's technologically illiterate, and they have moved like pretty much all of the ticketing services now like to these online platforms. And he's just he's an old grizzled grandpa and he's like, screw this, I don't want this.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, so I feel horrible for him, and I want to follow up on that story. I hope, you know, like there was enough consumer outrage or something. Because like that's terrible. But like um there's just there's just yeah, this is kind of leads me to the question of like how difficult do you think it is to get by without smartphones? And um you know, if do do you think these sorts of uh stories about like consumer inconvenience might actually uh help companies like try to think about I guess you can call them the the holdouts, you know, um like the people who who don't really want to to go full throated into uh the social media age quite yet. Well what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I definitely think that I definitely think it is near impossible at this point to avoid social media, but I think that like we talked about earlier, how we're really just trying to get back that control. And I really hope that something sticks. Um I'm thinking now about how me as a college student um I'm trying to network, I'm trying to connect, I'm trying to find opportunities, and it's all almost exclusively online or on social media. Um if I after I wrote this article, a lot of people had asked me like would I consider getting a dump phone? And I was like, I would love to be able to do that. But in this world where everything is on social media, like I require a LinkedIn, I require to have Instagram to be able to find networking for my future. Um, I I it's not feasible for me. And I think that that you know ties into well, there is social media everywhere. And I think just online too. Everything is switching online. I think, you know, when you go to a theme park now, it says no cash allowed. You can only use credit card, you know, and um, and I think it's happening so rapidly that we are leaving people behind. And I think I think that balance is important to that balance of you know, some, you know, you know, being able to take cash and card, you know what I mean? Like I think that balance is really important. Um, I work at a grocery store as well, a little bit about me in my hometown, but we still accept checks. And I think that that is I think that's important because I actually realize how many people give checks. And that makes me think like if we had cut them off, we would lose so much of our customer base. And I think that like by transitioning everything online and everything on social media, we're leaving people in the dust, and that not just you know, older people, but you know, people that may not have access to technology, um, you know, or maybe people that don't, you know, have a credit card, just in general, I think it's it's unfortunate that this is like what the world is coming to, and I think that that again ties into people transitioning to dumb phones or trying to find any last chance to bring that back, to bring back, you know, an analog kind of environment or kind of just like not having everything online, it's just becomes so overwhelming because even outside of social media, people are addicted to it, but then you step outside like if you were to you know drop all your social media off of your phone, you're still involved in a world that is so heavily online. Um banking is done online, like you know, you want to book a vacation, all done online, you know. Like that's just the reality of it. I think it's very unfortunate. I think that I think it's I almost have pride in my generation for reverting back to these ha hobbies, these habits. Um, I think that that is very amazing. And from what I'm learning um through my research as a journalist, um, based on this article and my article about grandma hobbies, that it's so much better for your mental health. Like it is we've they have found that people that do grandma hobbies actually live longer. So it is just proof to me. Yeah, it's just proof to me that like having that balance of you know, okay, so you we do some online and some offline. I think that having that balance is important. I think it is very crucial. And it fortunately it's not that like that anymore. Like you were talking about the cars, like everything the people have smart homes, smart cars. Yeah, you know, it's you know, all every room has an Alexa. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Oh, don't get me started on that. Like, because I remember people like, and like, you know, they made fun of like the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists, and they're like, oh my gosh, you know, they're listening to everything that you're saying, and blah blah blah. Uh, you know, they're wiretapping their rooms, and now in the modern era, it's like, hey, wiretap, could you give me uh, you know, chocolate chip cookie recipe? Like the the amount of privacy, the amount of information that we are just constantly forking over to these companies on a on a daily basis. Like, I'm sure you've experienced this too. Like, because you're on social media, like we have these tailored advertisements, and you will all of a sudden start seeing ads for things that you have like talked about with your friends or with your family, like maybe not even over text or whatever, like you just talk about it, like in the real world, in the real world, Marvel concept, you know. But all of a sudden you start getting ads for that. Or even the freakiest thing is when you get an ad for something that you have thought about, you didn't even look it up, you didn't even like anything, and it just you know yeah, it scares me crapless. I'm just like, oh my gosh, like this is literally big brother. Um yeah, yeah, it's so terrifying. And so I think yeah, I really liked what you said about like finding that balance is the key because I think with how um you know forward-looking and advancement uh focus on advancement and progress that like society has become, like it it's just over the last you know, 20 years in particular, um, and really the last five years I would say with artificial intelligence, like it seems to me that a lot of these big tech companies are just hurtling forward with you know, like very little regard or very little question about the possible unintended consequences of what they're pursuing. And it's just all about growth, it's all about investors, it's all about making money, and it's all about m supposedly making the world a better, more efficient place. But there seems to be very little questions or emphasis from within. I mean, there certainly is now, thankfully, a lot of um, you know, oversight and a lot of questions being asked and raised about the impacts that these sorts of technologies are having. Um but I yeah, I do think there should be some degree of balance because like you know, no disrespect to the Luddites or the Amish. Um, you know, they can choose to live a life that they want to live with no technology, like that's great. But like I think the vast majority of people, and they seem happier, frankly. They seem happier than the they're onto something, but like I think, as you said, like so much of our world now runs on and revolves around the use of these technologies that it is almost impossible. It's it's very difficult to completely go live a life without touching this in some form or another. But I oh I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I I was just kind of gonna launch to another question, but if you have something else you wanted to say, feel free.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

No, I was just gonna make the quick last point that I also think that it's something that the you know a s day-to-day citizen may not even want. Um I think I was thinking about how when your camera on your phone uh makes a shutter sound, and your phone doesn't need to make a shudder sound, like we we all crave that nostalgia, and I don't I think we're all kind of freaking out about this, like in a way I think a majority of us are like we need to take a step back. I think these companies are obviously, of course, they're very selfish and they're very much focused on what you know, how can I make the most money and whatever. I think that we've lost the plot a little bit. I think it used to be about convenience. Now I think it's just about who can get here the fastest and you know, how much money can I make. And I think ever since we have transitioned from, you know, making the world a better place to making the world completely technology, I think that is when we started to lose it. We started to have that disconnect between the consumer and the company. Um, so that's just what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

But that's actually a really good point, because I remember like pretty early on, like uh Google, um, you know, Google is just so like ubiquitous. Like it became a verb, right? Like, oh, I'll Google that, you know? And it became a synonym, almost like Kleenex became a synonym for like soft tissue that you used to blow your nose in. Google became a synonym for online searching, and their original uh like I forget if it was I think it was like their original slogan, if I remember correctly, was do no evil or something like that. In fact, I'm gonna I'm gonna fact check myself. Um Google slogan do no evil. Yeah, but like just the fact that you have that be your slogan, I think is a little bit harrowing. You know, it's like they're they're they they have to constrain themselves, um, you know, because they know themselves inherently. Yeah, so don't be evil was Google's former motto, emphasizing ethical business practices and the importance of serving users without bias. Yeah, without bias. Gag me. In 2015, it was replaced Yeah, it's absolutely wild. It was replaced by the phrase do the right thing. That's just wild to me. Like, because I feel like the people who founded the company knew, like, okay, this technology is so powerful, and like we can use it, you know. Like the founders of Google are just very, if you look into them, like I forget the main guy's name at the moment, but he he he's an odd duck, I'll just put it, I'll just put it nicely. He's he's one of those people who like he's trying to live forever, you know, and all this freaking thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Oh, I see, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah, all this freaky, like transhumanist stuff. Um yeah, and that's another rabbit hole I won't g go down. But the point is this like a lot of these companies, like they have to tell themselves don't be evil. You know, they have to remind themselves, okay, we're creating things that have a ton of power behind them. And originally, like, it seemed like a lot of these companies like Apple and Google and whatever had like decent incentives to you know better the world, better humanity. But now I think a lot of the underlying theme that we've been discussing is this idea of control, this idea that we have seeded so much of our day-to-day lives, like Amazon, for example. Like Amazon is just so ubiquitous, so pervasive, and has crowded out a lot of smaller businesses. I used to work in uh small business financing, and so it was just really like heartbreaking to see like a lot of these mom and pop shops, you know, struggling in a very modern world, but also being able to use modern technological tools to be able to help their business. But guess what? A lot of that infrastructure runs on Amazon Global Services, you know, Google servers, and you know, like it's all connected. So like it's just this one like flattening the circle, just this one big, you know, full coming full circle moment to where it's like, okay, even if you want to try and break free from this technology and from uh what's going on, you still kind of just have to come back. You can't bite the hand that feeds you, you know, some sort of thing. Right. So it really does, in a lot of ways, just feel like for small business owners, for consumers who are trying to be more conscious of like our privacy, um, you know, like the revelations about government wiretapping and Edward Snowden, like back uh, you know, several years back. Like you were probably like five or six when these revelations came out. I remember like debating about them. I remember talking about them. Um, and I'm just like, yeah, I'm dating myself here. And I'm just like, this is insanity. Like, this is insanity. Like all of the stuff that has been revealed by like Snowden, by the Panama Papers, by the Epstein Files, by all these things, just showing that these people do not have our best interests at heart. Oh, yeah, definitely not. They do not. And so, um, I really do think, and I think this has been a great episode so far, just highlighting the you know, what consumers are trying to do to fight back, how they are trying to, you know, disconnect a bit from the matrix, so to speak, and just this idea of you know, this hyperconnected world and being more in tune with each other, like as living, breathing human beings. Um more in tune with like actual, you know, real life um experiences and encounters. I think that's a really good thing. Um this leads me, but as you said, everything in moderation, everything in balance. And because I don't think we can go back to a world completely that lacks all this technology, lacks all this progress. But you know, in a sense, th most of what this of what we've been talking about has been about reclaiming control and reclaiming agency, because a lot of these companies have been silently or not so silently, like just taking over more and more elements of our day-to-day life until it kind of almost becomes too late, and we're just like, well, crap, now we can't, you know, actually make those decisions anymore. I kind of feel like this happened with streaming as well. Like streaming started as a rebellion against cable companies, and you know, it was all about cutting the cord and you know, being able to, you know, just curate your own entertainment options and not have to rely upon you know big cable. I mean, streaming now has just basically become a reinvention of cable with extra steps.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah, like it's just it's so expensive too.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

It's so expensive, you know. All of these like copyright situations and uh you know, oh, you can't watch what you want to watch because it's not on this service, it's on that service, and now you have to subscribe to two.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, and you have to Right, exactly. And then Disney and Hulu being connected now, and it's a hot mess.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, I mean industry consolidation too. Like I'm in the finance world, and so like uh consolidation, you know, buying of smaller businesses, and you know, almost kind of like the blob, you know, the blob just coming through and absorbing things into itself. Like it's just it's just something that like I mean, as it says in the book of Ecclesiastes, like nothing is new under the sun. You know, these have been concerns that have dated back even back to like the early 1900s with uh you know, Standard Oil and all these giant companies just eating up and gobbling up all these smaller industries. Um but I think all of this is to say this very long soliloquy that I've been on uh leads me into another topic, which is how much do you think that uh major world events like the let's just take the COVID-19 pandemic, for example. Um how much do you think this like being in the rearview mirror, and it's insane to me that it's been like six years since all of that.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I know, it feels like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah, it really does. I mean, and it's like COVID just really messed my sense of time. Like it feels like a long time ago, but it also feels like yesterday. Like it's just it's just weird, like that, how the brain can work some things. But anyway, getting back to the question, how much do you think that like the COVID-19 pandemic and just being hyper connected, especially to the news all the time? Um how much do you think that is contributing to this movement?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

I definitely think it's contributing a huge part to this movement. Um, I think I think back to COVID-19 and that whole event, and everybody just we had no choice but to, you know, be connected to our screens. We couldn't go outside. Um, and some people developed really strong addictions to their phones, and I think they had no control, you know, or they felt that they had no control. And then on top of that, you know, like constantly checking the news and just being obsessed with it. Um I think that that like kind of feeling is lingering. And I think it that it is it hasn't gone away, and people there have been lasting effects to that, you know, hyper connection during COVID-19. And people some people haven't been able to lose touch with that, you know, and um, and I think that this is completely related to events like that. I think people are, you know, now that we have, you know, some sort of control, we're trying to get that back. I this is one of those ways that we're trying to do that. I think people felt so lost during COVID. Now that we have, you know, we have, you know, the outside world that we can connect to, I think we're st we're like, okay, we we do have control. And here's another way we have control. Let's let's transition, you know, from phones to dumb phones, you know, or from hobbies, you know, to grandma hobbies. Um, and I think that like people are just they were so stuck. Maybe um even some people found it, you know, to be in pain. Like they were, it was such a hard time for so many people.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Um, it caused so much depression, anxiety. Um, there is definitely, I think, and this is not this is a speculation, that the that the correlation between, you know, mental health care, um, like that spike during COVID-19, people seeking mental health care has a direct correlation to that social media addiction that happened with COVID-19. And that's just a speculation, but I think it's it that was very clear that people were losing themselves in COVID-19. They had that like, you know, loneliness, and they had a lot of people lost their family. And in addition to that, they're the only real connection they can get is through a phone.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Um, so now that we're out of that, and now that we can see people face to face, and we have kind of gotten that taste of control again, I think people are now searching for okay, how else, how other how, you know, what are the other options? How can we kind of break free from this phone? Which is it's hard for a lot of people. So I'm really um I'm honestly excited to see where this leads. Yeah. Um, I hope that we stick with it. I hope that there is some sort of transition. Um, it makes me think too, back to AI, like how many people are scared for AI and how people are are pining for laws to to track it back a little bit. I think that it it's almost that same kind of idea where we are s we're scared and we're losing control of social media, of AI, of technology in general. Um, and I think that all we want is control of ourselves, autonomy. I think it's so important. We didn't have it during COVID-19. We felt so attached. Now that we have it, we're trying to search for other ways to to maintain it, to keep it.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, no, I would totally agree with that. And I think that with, you know, like there's I I love this topic because there's just so many broad ways that you can go, so many directions that you can think about it and talk about it. But like that actually does spawn a question in my mind too about, you know, artificial intelligence and its incorporation. Um like c because it seems like a lot of these smartphone companies are you know just adopting it like readily, like hand over fist. And uh that's not to say that there are no possible uses or everything is bad with AI, but I just I do think that kind of like with social media, um a lot uh like the original intent of social media was, oh hey, like this is a way for everyone to be more connected, and you know, you'll be able to see like uh your uncle's like vacation pictures, and you know, you'll be able to organize like, you know, meetups, you know, at like baseball games or like you know, Magic Gathering or whatever. Like originally I just find it so interesting that social media was predicated on this idea of increasing connection, and then what ultimately has panned out has really just been um like severe like depression, especially amongst like your generation and Gen Z millennials, like comparison games, you know, um just feeling like much less connected. Like you feel like ironically, because you have everybody just like on your phone and you're able to reach out to them anytime, um, it's kind of like analysis paralysis. Like you don't really actually do that, you end up actually feeling less connected. Um I feel like AI kind of has that similar thing that's kind of going for it right now. It's like it was intended to increase productivity and efficiency and make us smarter, you know, and and bring us into some sort of you know, utopia kind of world where everything is done efficiently and everybody lives happier, healthier lives. But I also see uh just right now, a lot of the things that are panning out are kind of the exact opposite. Like people are becoming stupider, really. Right, yeah. Because now you can just plug in whatever you want into AI um and it'll spit out an answer for you that sounds really good. Um ChatGPT in particular is just very guilty of um like continually affirming like people in their delusions, you know. And I've read several.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah, and that's caused a couple lawsuits.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah, it's caused lawsuits. It's caused people to like just get into this like AI-induced psychosis, like they think that they're talking with a real person. Um several tragic stories.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Right, and that is crazy that that is a thing. AI-induced psychosis is now like it is a real thing. People are ha like developing this like almost condition, and it's it is crazy. Yeah, it's insane.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

It's crazy and it's really sad because like you know, people commit suicide over it, like people do like real real world crimes. Like, because the AI is like uh and I it's hard for me to say. Like, is the AI being manipulated or is the AI the one doing the manipulation? Like, and that's the scary thing. It's like I feel like we're creating something and we don't fully know um all of the implications of it and what is actually like how Happening. I read this article the other day about how um a lot of these AI models know like when they are being tested, like when they're in a simulation and they tailor their answers, they tailor everything because they know they're being tested. But in the real world, like it can be a completely different thing. And that's honestly just quite terrifying to me. Like of course, these are models, like these are not sentient, like living, you know, human beings, but like the more and more computing power we're giving to these things, um yeah, it really just it really is quite uh you know scary to me. But what this leads me to is this next question of um like a little I guess a little bit of devil's advocacy, so to speak. Um if people you know still want to maintain like a certain d degree of connectivity, um especially like with AI, because there are some things with AI that you know I would say are beneficial. Like I I use it loosely to just kind of help like give me some ideas for you know my podcast or um you know recipes or things like that. Like there are probably some limited uses that could be beneficial. So in with with regards to AI specifically, um do these uh dumb phones like still have a way, for example, if I wanted to, you know, have AI be incorporated into my use of the phone, like would I still be able to pick and choose that? Because it sounds like I'm able to pick and choose a lot of things depending on different models of the dumb phones. But like, is is AI something that they are, you know, completely getting rid of, or is it something that I can just choose to incrementally allow into my life still if I decide to go with with one of these models? Are do you do you are you aware of that?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

I am not aware of that, but I don't believe that that would be an option. I think it could be for the future maybe of dumb phones. Um but I think right now, like I think it's all about disconnecting from that technology like tie. I think um like dumb phones are the mission I see is that it's you can call, you can text, and maybe listen to music, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um and have a camera. And I think that the people that are picking up excuse me, the people that are picking up dumb phones are maybe not the same people that are interested in the development of AI.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Um, I think I think there is that correlation. I think people that are searching to disconnect are not necessarily also searching for more AI involvement.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yeah, it's kind of like the exact opposite. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Right. Right. So um, but I think that AI, I think it has its ups and downs. Um, I think the same with social media. You were talking earlier about how um there was, you know, a moment a shift with AI, and I think and there's a shift with social media. And I always think back to the story of how um mental health with social media started to go down um when Facebook added the like feature.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

And it so I think for dumb phones and those kinds of technologies, I'm hopeful that there isn't gonna be that kind of shift.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Um but I do think I do.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Yeah, I was just gonna throw in here as well. Never forget that Facebook was started by a couple of Harvard college students for this explicit purpose of rating women on campus.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Like, I don't know how many people actually actively remember that fact. But I just think that that is absolutely beyond wild to me because when you actually see how Facebook ended up um like becoming a mass marketable product, um really not a whole lot has changed. It's just, you know, become a lot more under the surface and subliminal. Right. But really, what it ultimately comes down to is dehumanization, really, of people and just you're you're you're kind of mentally ranking them, you know. Oh my gosh, like he just got a new car, oh he went on a vacation to uh, you know, wherever, like and it's a ranking system, really. It's a comparison game that definitely happens, but it has its roots in, you know, literally like just ranking relative attractiveness of women, and I I think that's pretty crazy. Anyway, uh continue on.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yeah, no, definitely. Well, uh uh based off you know, going off of your point, like I think with social media addiction, it's not just using it and abusing it. I think it it also comes from that like social media like confidence. Um people are constantly trying to show themselves as you know, or have this facade on their social media and upkeep it, and then also seeing other people's stuff and making that make pe making people feel like they're less than, and all of that. I think that that also is another reason people are um transitioning from smartphones to dumb phones is because they feel tired, they feel exhausted of constantly trying to uplift themselves. So yeah, definitely. So I definitely think that that is for sure relevant. And I was just, you know, talking about how I think dumb phones, like I am hopeful to not see that shift. But the I think now um the beauty of dumb phones in this technological environment is that there is a spectrum and it is customizable um in a way, like there is a lot more of a market for it, there's a lot more opportunities. So if somebody wants music on their dumb phone, they can have music. If somebody doesn't want music, they don't have to have music. There are dumb phones with Google Play on it, so you can download some some apps. Um, and then there's dumb phones where it's like you have three buttons, you know, and I think that that I I love that part of dumb phones now. I just don't want I want dumb phones to be their own category, and that's what I'm hopeful for.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Um yeah, I hope that there's no encroachment there for sure. Um because yeah, kind of the whole point is disconnection. And this is something, sorry to interrupt here, but actually I did have an interesting question for you personally. Like, because you mentioned that with you know your current situation with networking and being in journalism and everything, um, it's like it's very hard for you personally to like completely disconnect. Um I myself, I have the only real reason I have an Instagram account is because I have so many people that I, you know, maybe loosely knew, I was acquaintances with a long time ago, but I like to keep up with them, say hi to them sort of thing. And if I got rid of Instagram, like I would lose contact with them. And I know people who they're like, hey, I'm getting good at social media, if you want to, you know, stay in touch with me, here's my phone number or whatever. But that only works to like it's like a very hit or miss sort of thing, because only the people who are active and who are going to see you post that are gonna, you know, be incentivized to reach out. But just for a personal question for you is maybe have you considered yourself like going to a some sort of dumb phone arrangement? Um something that I can think of as like some people have a work phone and that's paid for by their work, and some people have um like just their own personal device. And so have you yourself thought about um like maybe having some sort of you know, or smartphone or computer or whatever that is solely dedicated to like social media, networking, journalism stuff, but for your day-to-day personal life, like having a dumb phone, have you considered that? And if not, like would that be something you would consider? How do you think that would go for you in your personal life?

SPEAKER_00 52:14

I would 100% do that, like a thousand percent. I um a little bit about me, I am very much about analog hobbies. I am a big reader, I crochet, I knit, I've been doing that since I was in middle school. Awesome. Um I try to not pick up my phone, and because I I you know too was a victim of COVID, as was everybody. Um, and I hated that feeling of being stuck with your phone. So I broke away from that. And I am very much like not with like I do not like social media. Um, so I would a hundred percent consider that. I think if there was a way for me to find now a way to excuse me, um, find a way to network and stay connected with my career and like my career's development um without a phone, I was like that would I'm jumping right on that, you know. Like that is for sure direction I want to take. I think it's very risky for me right now because I'm a freshman, um, and this is the time for me to build those connections, find those opportunities. And as we were talking about earlier, it's unfortunate, but it is true that almost everything is online now. Um, there are no flyers anymore on corkboards, you know, it's all on your phone. It's an email, you know. Um, so I don't want to miss out on anything that could be my future. Um, but I think once I'm at a place where I feel confident um with where I'm headed, I f I think that that is definitely in the cards for me. I am all about finding ways to entertain myself outside of my phone. Um, I one time saw some some you know body on social media talk about how uh every morning they leave their phone back at their apartment and go get a coffee without their phone and they just do that and they just like you know, lit people watch and I think that that is such a beautiful thing. I think that is a reality I want to live in where I don't have to bring my phone everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Um but it it's it is what it is. Um but I definitely think having like two pieces like a work phone and then a dump phone, that definitely seems something that I would seems like something I would a hundred percent do.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah, totally. And I think that's very interesting again, speaking to this idea of agency and being able to like control your own affairs. And it's just interesting that like you feel like at this particular moment and you're in this stage in your you know collegiate career and everything, like you are not you're you're still like chained to a technology that you don't want to be tied to. Um you know, you feel like you don't really have a say in that matter, and that and only when you've reached a certain place will you be able to like electively, you know, selectively make those choices. Um I I kind of feel like in a in a in a somewhat in a somewhat dissimilar way, like for me, because it's kind of easy, you know, we've we've spoken for almost an hour about like, you know, dumb phones and technology and like all these choices that we can make as consumers to like be more intentional with how we spend our time, with where we put our eyeballs, you know, and living in the real world and everything. And then like what am I probably going to immediately do as soon as I hit the stop record button and edit this episode? I'm probably gonna check my phone. I'm probably gonna see what messages I've gotten. I am probably gonna go out and like play Pokemon Go or whatever for a little bit, you know? Like uh the technology has infiltrated, you know, our lives to such a high degree that I feel like while there is a lot of consumer movement and backlash like against you know these technologies and like over emphasis on them, overuse of them, they have become integrated in our lives and in such a big way, and in ways that like both little and big ways that we don't even realize or notice. So then when we try to like pull back, it it almost kind of feels like you know, like a heroin addict, like trying to get clean. It's just like, oh my gosh, like I'm having like technology withdrawals and everything. And so um so yeah, have you um like kind of encountered that personally yourself, like as because obviously you can't fully disconnect, but like in your own personal efforts, like have you run into situations where you became acutely aware of like just how connected you had ended up becoming, whether whether or not you realized it experienced that um for sure.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

I have deleted social media like TikTok or Instagram countless times. I have it now, but um every time I've deleted it, I've always found like my finger to go back where the app was.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

And not even because I never had to be like, it's hovering there, and I was like, wait a second, there was something there that used to be there, it's no longer there. It's like it feels like a piece of your heart is missing.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Exactly. It's it's become like it's like second nature, you know? Like I would wake up in the morning and I would go to click the app without even thinking about it. Like not even like realizing that it's not there anymore. Um so yes, I definitely have experienced that for sure. Um but I definitely think like being in college and having a lot more people around me, like I'm in this fortunate position to have just so many people around me, so many clubs, so many opportunities. Like I can think that like my screen time is like is an hour every day now, which is sounds like a lot, but it's really not.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Yeah, some studies show that people are spending like they it's almost a full-time job, um, the amount of time they have on their screen sometimes. And so, yeah, getting your screen time to an hour a day, like that's that that's actually pretty impressive. Good on you.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Yeah, thank you. So I think that just being able to find people, um hobbies, activities to fill your time with, I think it is so rewarding. Um, I think for people that maybe are struggling with smartphone addiction. I think having a project on the side, like I for me, I'm of course I'm a journalist, so my instinct in my nature is to write. So, like for me, if I'm done school, I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna read, I'm gonna research, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, write an article just cuz, not because it's an assignment. Um, I think like for like find that equivalent, I think is really important. Because now when I come home from work, I'm not or from excuse me, from school, that when I come home from classes, I'm not um I'm not picking up my phone. I'm working on this project, and I'm almost excited to do that. So if somebody's musical, you know, like find a song that's hard for you to play and learn try to learn how to play it. And then, you know, when you get off your work, you get off your school, you're not picking up your phone, you're excited to learn this song, you know, or excited about you're building something that's actually taking a few. Right, or just yeah. Exactly. And it it's so rewarding when you're finished and you're done and you can look at something you've made, or just you know, building relationships, keeping connected with people, real human beings, going outside, like just sitting outside is good for you, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

And I think that it's exactly like I'm joking, but like actually there is something to that. Like studies show that like just having the sensation of grass like on your feet actually does release like certain you know, happy brain chemicals and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

So exactly, and like vitamin D. Um, I think that for me, like, though I can't, you know, it's not feasible for for me right now to completely get rid of my smartphone, I can definitely supplement that um by taking extra time and noticing, like, oh, I need to let me go get coffee with this person instead of doom scrolling for an hour, you know, or let me go sit outside, bring a towel, and just sit outside and do my homework outside, you know, or write my emails outside instead of doing it inside and like, you know, in my bed. I think that mindset shift is really important. So if somebody is in a position like me where they can't get a dumb phone because it's not feasible, maybe it's not good for the work and they need to have a phone, I think you can replicate it by having that mentality of I don't need this. It's not necessary, I don't need a phone, I can live without it, um, on on your off time, you know? Yeah. So just like and that that I think is I I wanted to express more in my article is that you know, there is still options for people outside of dumb phones. Um, if they're struggling. It's it's really a mindset shift, is is really the key.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Yeah, for sure. Well, hey, um, I mean, just because you weren't able to say it in you know your first article, maybe you can have like a follow-up based on this conversation that we had. Um, you know, maybe totally not shameless plug here, but like when this episode's out, you can you can even put a link to this uh episode and have it be the springboard for your next piece, whatever you decide to write. Um, totally not necessary, but I'm I I was just saying like this could spawn a like a future series of articles, you know? You never know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

No, well that's that's what I wanted to focus on on my next article is is those other options outside of um DOM phones. So that was my actually my inspiration for my next article. So super cool. Watch out for another her campus article. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Grandma hobbies coming soon to the her campus website near you, you know? Right. Exactly. No, that's really cool. Um but before we completely draw this episode to a close, uh, because I I've really enjoyed our time here, our conversation. I think we've we've been able to touch a lot of topics, which I feel like we can delve down just so many different rabbit holes. Like it's kind of like uh a mile wide and an inch deep, you know. Um because we we with what we've been able to talk about here, but still it's been really great. I've been really I've really enjoyed this time. Um but the last main question that I wanted to ask, and this can listen, this can be a whole topic in and of itself as well. But with everything that we've talked about, with like both the positive and mainly we've been focusing on like the negative um impacts of the use of social media and you know overuse of social media. Um that's been really hot lately, uh like as a topic in the news, especially like the last couple of years, but it especially came to a head recently where there have been congressional hearings about this. Um there was a uh like a ruling, like uh a lawsuit, uh a ruling on this lawsuit that said that like Google and Facebook have to be held liable, like legally liable for certain damages. Um I I think it was, if I remember right, it was about like teenagers' use of social media. Um it's a pretty landmark ruling, like that's a huge deal. Um there's a lot of countries around the world, and good on them, like props on them for this. They are instituting like social media bands for people under certain ages. And you know, we get into all like the unintended consequences of that, like the good of that, the bad of that, and like maybe in certain ways that could be sliding a swing in the pendulum too far in the other direction. But I'm just kind of at the point where I at least want somebody to do something about this. Like, I don't want unchecked you know, unchecked growth of social media with absolutely little little to no regard for how it's impacting our youth in particular. So like maybe it's a pendulum swing a little too far in the other way, but like at least something is being done that I think is a is a net benefit positive. Um But that leads me into my main question as we kind of start wrapping up the show is do you think that these social media companies, and kind of by extension AI and you know, these like smartphone developers, but we'll keep it mainly focused on social media. Uh, do you think these social media companies should be held liable for damages done, particularly to young people? But honestly, I would say to almost like any um you know, users. Because the whole comparison thing and the whole, you know, uh negative impacts of social media don't just magically turn off when you turn twenty. Like these things impact people of all different uh walks of life, and so yeah, um but that's that's my question. Like, do you think that social media companies should be held liable for these damages?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

I I think that they should, and to some extent. I think it depends on what you know the damage is that we're talking about. But I I am thinking back to how um social media companies in general, like Meta, they have in place these like programming um you know, I'm not tech savvy, but you know, they have these like they've implemented. Implemented algorithms in a way that to make them purposefully addictive. Oh, yeah, 100%. And for that, I think that they do need to be held liable because it there is a direct there is factually a correlation between poor mental health and social media addiction. And then these companies are making people addicted. So on purpose, so that they will get money and yeah, and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

For I was just gonna say, for the purpose of making billions of dollars. Like it feels like ill-gotten mean to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

So I think for sure in that case, 100% they need to be held liable because it is the consequences of their actions that real people are being hurt. Um and it's purposeful. It's they're doing it out of greed. And it it also could be correlated to the lawsuits that are happening with cat like ChatGPT and like those AI companies because they are enabling um people that are in psychosis and it has led to suicides. Um, if they in my head, I believe that if they can program, you know, an AI to be that powerful, they can equally program those protections.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

Um, and I think in that case, they do need to be held liable. Um, I think that they need to, if it's happening multiple times, which it has, it's it's how it's be it's happening more than once, then I think they need to be held liable because it's it's not a mistake. This is these are human beings, real people that are using their product and they know they're aware of the dangers that come with it. It's not some secret anymore. It's it is very much out in the open. And protections online are not hard to make. They're not hard to you know if these people cared about the citizens that they were serving or the consumers, then they would implement these protections. They they can do it. I'm 100% positive that they can. So I think that in that case, they need to be held liable because these, again, like I said, like I want to emphasize these are real life human beings that are struggling with this. Right. People you know struggle with social media addiction, people you know are you know struggling with AI use. Um, it's a real, it's a real tangible issue. And these people that sit so high up in their chairs um as executives of these companies, they know that the that these problems are happening. Um, and they seem to not be doing much about it. And it's like people are losing loved ones, not just they seem to be doing lip service to it. But like you know, like people they're not losing, they're losing loved ones like their suicide in most extreme cases, but they're even losing them just because they're disconnected now, you know, just because of how much social media they're using. Um, I definitely think those kinds of companies need to be held liable. Um, and I'm glad that there is there is starting to become a trend of liability for these companies. And I I think it's too late in a sense. I think that this has been going on for years. We've been aware of the damages for years. Um so I de I think that I'm just again, like I said earlier, I'm so glad and I'm almost like I'm excited that Gen Z and Millennials are making that shift over to dump phones and trying to get back our autonomy um and try and like get back just control in general.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

So yeah, for sure. No, I think you have a lot of good points there. I do think that there is, you know, a certain degree of and I mean this is just some of the explosive stuff that have been coming out of the hearings of like basically, you know, up at the very top, like these executives, you know knew and tried to cover up in a lot of ways, like a lot of the negative impacts that were happening. I think AI is a slightly different use case in that from the get-go, like a lot of these uh programmers and people and the executives of these various companies were aware of a lot of the risks and they were doing you know their best to try and account for those, have good guide rails, you know, to prevent these from happening with various degrees of success or various degrees of of knowledge of culpability or whatever. But as you say now, like it's out in the open, there's all of these documented cases of this going on, even regardless of these guardrails that are up. And so I think there are some slight differences in the cases uh in in between social media and AI, with how rapid, especially, like I mean, we think that social media has been a rapid uh growth and ascension. Like AI has been like even even faster. And so I just I think that like I j definitely generally agree, but I also do think that especially I think with how rapid AI has grown and and everything, and uh be the Cynic in me kind of thinks about how like a lot of these laws are being written by uh you know congressmen and congresswomen who they still use like floppy disks. Like a lot of people, and I'm talking about you know America in particular, but you know, this happens to in other countries too. Like a lot of the people who are in charge and like writing these laws, and the laws that we are trying to like prosecute these companies under, like they were written, you know, back when the floppy disk was a thing. Like back when technology was just so much newer. And you know, clearly the legal code is not up to snuff. Like it's not able to uh really account for this new technological era that we live in. And so I I think this is like a deeper problem than just okay, we have to force these companies to pay money or whatever, like for damages or for these, you know, negative mental health outcomes and suicides and whatever. Like I think what needs to be going on, and I think is is like just starting to be thought about, is we have to like kind of overhaul a lot of this code. We have to overhaul a lot of these laws to properly reflect and accommodate an ever-changing technological landscape because you know, you can't be you you you you can update a uh like the iOS uh you know software like every every few weeks, every few months, every day, even you know, with little tweaks and bug fixes and everything. Uh legal code is a little bit more difficult to update like that. Like, so I think the challenge moving forward is going to be being able to strike that balance where you're able to have laws written uh in a broad enough fashion to be able to apply to and accommodate new changes in technology, but also you can't have it be so vague to where, like, I mean, lawyers doing what lawyers do best, just being able to, you know, argue out of pretty much anything, like better called you know, kind of where they they're just able to get off on a technicality or a loophole or whatever. Like, I think as we start wrapping up this episode, I think kind of that's one of the biggest uh challenges moving forward. And we we've I just love how you know far we have been able to take this initial topic and what I initially wanted to have you on the show for, which was all about dumb phones, right? Right and disconnecting. But we've just been able to take this into such broad and different directions that I even didn't personally myself foresee we would go down. But I think uh, you know, just kind of wrapping things up, um dumb phones are a really interesting and in my view important way, a small way, but still, you know, little victories to count and little victories do add up for I would say, you know, consumer rights, uh consumer, you know, acknowledge, the ability to be able to make well-informed decisions about the data that we are giving to or you know, with dumb phones choosing no longer to give um, you know, certain companies. Like I think it's a great option to have out there. And I think the interests of consumers and government and uh uh these big businesses are intersecting and colliding in different ways to where uh I think companies that resist and it it's a very ironic thing to me, is because usually when you say things like, Oh, uh c companies that resist change are gonna be uh you know end up being you know left in the dust, right? And that's normally about technological progress, right? Right. But what I'm seeing here, and what I think is as a burgeoning movement, is I think companies in a very ironic way that are going to resist a change back to like the way things used to be, like old ways. Honestly, I think there it stands a very real chance, not that they'll necessarily be left in the dust. Like, you know, Apple has you know billions of free cash flow dollars, like you know, if they stop if they stop selling iPhones and if they stop selling anything, like they would be good for like, I don't know, a hundred years of cash burn. Something crazy like that. Like they're fine, okay. So I'm not gonna predict come here and predict that like all these massive companies are just gonna fold overnight. But what I think in terms of consumer relevance and consumer trust, um I do think that there stands a very strong possibility that in an ironic way, if you do not uh innovate retroactively, like if you if you don't give consumers these options, the g give consumers these choices, to be able to make more knowledgeable um you know, uh daily life decisions with the information that they're giving back to these companies and um you know choosing not to be part of AI or social media or at least significantly you know detaching themselves, maybe not completely, but you know, as much as possible. Yeah, I think there stands a very real chance that those companies that focus on the that market niche, the the the the burgeoning um you know honorary grammas, right? Like I think I think that there if for any possible tech executives who are somehow listening to this show, like I I would I would say here is if you're looking for a market niche to fill, if you're looking for a new way to make money, like mega money, like free business advice, yeah. Free business advice here, exactly. Because it should all be about the consumer and it should all be about like you know, the customer is always right, you know, serving what they want, serving their interests um to be able to make money. I mean, that's what the ideal, you know, free market capitalist model is is all about. And so, yeah, I would say look at what these dumb phone companies are doing, you know, come out with your own spin on it, come out with you know, various degrees of connectivity, like uh, you know, Julian said here, on a spectrum of, you know, just going completely clamshell, completely flip phone, to all the way up to, you know, basic app functionality, certain things, just removing social media, whatever. Um, yeah, I would say giving consumers that choice is I think going to be the way the way of the future moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:45

I'm excited and interested to see what that might look like.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

I hope it is I hope it's in the cards. I hope that is a future that we will see.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:55

Yeah, absolutely. And so and I, you know, until I read your article, Jillian, like I was very loosely aware, like I've heard of the nothing, uh, the nothing phone, like very briefly. But what I actually thought what it was about, I thought it was kind of like one of those like video game consoles where it it's it's like a clear um you know, you can see all the inside components of the game console sort of thing. Like that's what I initially thought it was about. I'm just like, oh, that's really cool. Like it's a smartphone, but it it just has no, it's like a clear uh plastic thing where you can just see all the inside components. I had no idea that nothing phone was actually much more about disconnectivity, you know? Yeah. So I'm sure this show and your article is gonna help make a lot of people aware that there are more options out there. Um and I think that's that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

I hope people yeah, I hope people will become aware of that. It's it's very important that people don't feel that they're lost or they don't have any more control because in reality we do have a lot more control. Um social media addiction is a very real thing. It's a real thing that people struggle with, it's a very valid thing that people struggle with. I think that it's important for people to remember that you do have you do have autonomy and these are options for you. They're feasible options, you know, because of that spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

So Yeah, absolutely. You don't have to feel enslaved to that. You have the power, exactly you have the agency to make better choices for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

Yeah, totally. All right, well, as they say in uh I think it was one of the Star Wars prequels, I will watch your career with great interest. Um Jillian, for people who want to just keep up with uh, you know, what you're gonna be doing with your career, um what are what are some of the best ways to do that? I I'm gonna have, you know, I'm gonna list whatever uh you say here in the show notes. Um but yeah, for people who want to follow your work and what you're doing, um, who want to connect with you, uh ideally not as much on social media, but social media is a necessary burden for you at the moment. Um but like yeah, what what are some of the best ways for people to uh just keep in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

Yeah, please go look at my LinkedIn. It's my full name, Julian Fear, so J-U-L-I-A-N, and then Fear, last name, F-E-U-R-E-R. Um, that's where you can keep posted on my activities on you know anything new, any new articles. Um, yeah, and I'll I'll put I'll put a link to this on there as well. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

Totally. Sounds great. Well, thank you all so much for tuning into this. Thank you so much, Julian, for uh your time and the great conversation that we had here today. Um, you know, sometime in the future, maybe, uh based on you know whatever follow-up articles you may write. Um I'm just gonna issue an open invitation right now. You're more than welcome to come back on the show and and talk about those sorts of things if you if you'd like.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

Oh, yeah, definitely. I you know, I had a really great time here today. I thank you for your you know listening. This was a really good conversation. So I would love to come back whenever you're you know you'll have me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

Yeah, awesome, good stuff, and I'm sure me and our audience would love to have you back as well. Um But anyway, yeah, thank you all so much for tuning in, everyone. Um, just the obligatory like housekeeping stuff I always like to do. Um, you can you know go to the show notes, see everything that we talked about here. Um you can reach out to the show, reach out to me personally, you can you can text me. I have a nifty little Buzz Sprout link, you can do that. Um if you like what you hear and want to hear more of it. Um the show will always be free. But I have a you know Ko-Fi and Buzz Sprout donation links if you wish to help defray some of the costs of running the show. And last but certainly not least, uh we have our Discord community. Um I forcibly dragged Julian onto Discord so we would be able to record this show. Um but yeah, we do have a little server if you want to just stay posted with all things of an extemporaneous. Um and it is kind of ironic that I but it makes sense to me actually that I purposely chose not to create like a Facebook, a Twitter, um, like all the social media channels to promote this show. Like I, even though this is like an online podcast, you know, very social media heavy environment, like I I have purposely chosen not to do that actually, because I would rather have this uh spread organically, like word of mouth, you know, as much as I can, which is kind of ironic again, given that this is an online uh platform. But yeah, like I just in I'm just kind of being self-reflective, retrospective right now, that I chose from the outset of this to like kind of detach myself from the typical model of like heavily promoting my show on like all the social media channels. And I'll just say for for the audience's benefit, it has greatly benefited me as an individual to be able to make that choice and say, hey, I'm gonna put out my content, but it will go wherever, wherever God wants it to go, you know? And so um that maybe that little example can help inspire someone out there too. Um anyway, yeah, thanks again, Julian, for joining the show. And thanks again, everyone, for listening, and uh hope you all have a great rest of your day and week. And always remember, the buck stops right here. Because we are looking out for you, and we're gonna be able to do that.