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Safe to Love
We are on a mission to help the world believe in love again, and give you the courage to find it!
Safe to Love
When Loving Someone is Letting Them Go - April Benincosa
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In this episode of Safe to Love, Chad sits down with April for a powerful interview about the life that led her to creating Safe to Love, the choices along the way that shaped her into the woman that she is, and the courage it takes to leave behind a marriage that is not good for either partner. April bravery and authenticity are on full display here as she shares a story that so many women experience, way too many in silence, of being in a marriage with love and friendship and mutual respect, but lacking passion and intimacy. When two people who care for each other have to face the reality that they cannot meet each other's unique needs, the rightness of a decision does not make it hurt any less.
Let this quintessential episode of Safe to Love bring you both hope and courage in equal measure to fight for your own love story!
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This is a good marriage, but good compared to what? Good compared to my friend whose husband was cheating on her all the time. My other friend whose husband was an alcoholic. My other friend whose husband didn't ever have a job. And it's like, well, he has a job and he treats me good. And we have friendships, so that's good. And it was good based on those models that I'd seen, but there was something deep inside of me that was, I want more. I want more than good.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Safe to Love. We are on a mission to help the world believe in love again and give you the courage to find it. And today I have the opportunity to interview my co-host, the lovely April Benincosa, and give our audience a chance to get to know her a little better and tell her story. So welcome, April.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, I'd just like you to kind of invite you to just tell a story of how you ended up here as a highly successful coach and co-host of a podcast about love.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, let's start at the very beginning when I was born. No, I'm just kidding. Um, I grew up Mormon and um I was a middle child of five children and very much wanted to always feel seen. And I grew up with being very performative. We used to put on plays in our backyard and invite our neighbors over to do um just like experiences and we would like lip sync and very expressive. And then when I was five to nine, I was sexually abused by my uncle and it really um stopped my voice. It just like a lot of that inner child got stifled and it just felt really unsafe to be seen in that way. And then I got into service work. I started waiting tables at a really young age. I started working in my calendars and waiting tables, and I was always really good at instantly connecting with people. And then I got into bartending. And then when I was in my 20s, I was waiting tables at the airport and I waited on this guy who changed my whole life. He said to me, Why are you working here? Like, look around all the people whose lives who are there's a lot of people I worked with that were still in their 50s waiting tables, which there's nothing wrong with it. He just knew it wasn't for me. And he's like, You can do so much more with your life. And he just saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And that started me on this quest of um seeking and seeking knowledge and and seeking information, and um started doing a bunch of Tony Robbins stuff.
SPEAKER_00And um and how old were you at the time?
SPEAKER_03Let's see, I was 23.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's what got me to go back to beauty school. So I went back to beauty school um so that I could find a way to get out of the airport because I did get a used to I was making a lot of money and um I didn't have any education, and so I just knew I needed a skill. And so I went and started doing hair.
SPEAKER_00And then And why specifically were you drawn to beauty school and doing hair?
SPEAKER_03I love aesthetics. And I really loved um, I always actually wanted to be a psychologist, and I did eventually get my degree in psychology, but I loved helping people feel something that I could give them. So they would sit in my chair, they would tell me their story, and I would connect with them in this really unique way. And the benefit of doing hair is like people let you in their trust zone. I actually wrote a paper on it in college of why haircuts make you feel better. And they make you feel better because you know, normally you wouldn't let someone like a stranger get within three feet of your personal bubble. And hairstylist gets right in and puts their hands on your head, and you have the overall appearance of like looking and feeling better. You talk to them through the mirror. So it's not this like, lay on a couch and tell me all your problems. It's like, what's going on in your life? And people just started opening up to me. And the first time a client would sit in my chair, they would always say, I've never told anybody that before. And I just got that so much. And I just realized that there was something more to me and more to this whole thing than just doing someone's hair. And I wanted to actually help people transform the way they feel on the inside instead of just the outside. And a lot of my um hair sessions turned into be kind of therapy sessions. And so I started getting into coaching and always have wanted to be a coach since I read.
SPEAKER_00How long were you how long were you a hairstylist?
SPEAKER_03I was a hairstylist for 20 years.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. So you did that for a while. Yeah. You had a lot of many years of that connection with people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I definitely um there was a lot of areas to grow and until I outgrew that area. So I first started doing hair and then I started doing hair and makeup. And then I um went out on my own and got my own studio. And then I started working for magazines, Sports Illustrated, Harper's Bazaar, traveled all over the world doing hair makeup. And then I at 29 bought my first salon. And then within three years, I bought four salons.
SPEAKER_00You actually were featured in in an uh article about that, right? For having accomplished that before 30.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was um awarded the 40 under 40. And um, so they interviewed me for growing so fast because I within uh two years, I had bought all four salons. So it's pretty fast growth. And then along the way, you know, one thing that they always tell you not to talk about with hair is politics and sex. And I was never really into politics, but boy, did we talk about sex.
SPEAKER_00I can't imagine telling women not to talk to each other about sex.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I just had all these married women come in and talk about how they wanted sex, but their partner didn't want sex and how ashamed they felt about that because it was not the narrative that was, you know, oh, my wife has a headache or whatever. Instead, I was having all these women coming and being like, I actually want more sex, and my husband doesn't. My husband has a headache.
SPEAKER_00And that that's a recurring theme on our show, by the way. Men, women want sex.
SPEAKER_03Yes, they do, especially women in their 40s who are comfortable with their, you know, they're comfortable with their bodies. They're that's actually when women reach their sexual peak.
SPEAKER_00And I I say that jokingly, but really that's a message that needs to be said to women. Um, because a lot of that a lot of that is kept quiet because there is a you know, there's social pressure to not be sexual or to not be sexually desirous. And I think, you know, I jokingly say that to men, but in all seriousness, I think it's an important message to continually reiterate to women who are out there feeling like they're alone in wanting more sex and afraid to speak about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. And um, you know, at 29 I had also gotten married. And so before that, from my 20, I didn't kiss a boy till I was almost 20. That was like my very first kiss. So I was a little late bloomer and then I made up for lost time and kind of When did you were you still in the Mormon church at that time? Um, I had left the Mormon church at 20, around 20.
SPEAKER_00Left the Mormon church and went right to kissing a boy.
SPEAKER_03I did, yeah. All of well, it was the the boy that I kissed that helped me leave the Mormon church, actually. So um, and then I was just like, I've always been a hopeless romantic. I've always just like loved love and loved romance, read romance novels. I loved romance movies. I just I love to talk to people about relationships, and I just like wanted everyone to find their person. And I went through a lot of really toxic relationships, um, unbeknownst to me because of my sexual abuse, and I had had this anxious, avoidant attachment style that I was very unhealed and not even like in my consciousness at the time. And then um at 29, I ended up getting married and I married a partner who felt really safe to me and became a stepmom. And so I went from, you know, never being married, having a boyfriend for too long to being married, being a stepmom, moving into his house. Like that was a very big year of expansion for me. It's also the same year that I left the salon that I worked at for 10 years and went out on my own. So it was a very big year. It was around 30, 29 to 30. Um, so like every 10 years, I've noticed I kind of reinvent myself and uh have this big, huge expansion that happens for me.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just curious if you could expand a little more about what about your uh husband at the time felt safe, like what that meant to you at the time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what that meant for me at the time is the relationships I'd had before were very um, I felt like they only wanted me for sex. And we have this like hot, passionate, you know, toxic sex, but they didn't want like I was too much for them. I felt like too much for them. Um, my ideals, my philosophies, like my emotional needs felt like too much for them. And they were very unstable and it was just very much chaos. And they all had ended up cheating on me and um, you know, left me feeling like worthless, and it really like lowered, like I had this deep story of I'm not worthy of love. And so I actually kind of made a conscious decision that I wasn't attracted to healthy men, and I knew that I wasn't attracted to healthy men. And then here was this guy who on paper, you know, he had a great job, he was a good dad, he was a good man, he had integrity, he had all of these things, but I knew from the beginning that the sexual chemistry wasn't there, but I also very consciously was like, well, that will grow into real love. And this guy will never cheat on me and he will never, you know, do this for me, and he doesn't want me just for sex, he actually values me as a person. And so we got married.
SPEAKER_00So you almost found some safety in the lack of sexual chemistry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And that was a part of myself that felt very um uncontrolled. And and I didn't know how to control it, and I didn't know how to be responsible with it. So it was kind of like I went to the opposite. I went from really one extreme to the other extreme. And um, I had taken this class in psychology called the psychology of love, and they talk about different types of romantic relationships, and there's like the lust phase, and that only lasts, you know, like six months, and then there's the romantic phase, and that usually lasts about five years, and then there's the companionship phase. And we kind of just went straight into the companionship phase. I had kind of skipped the other phases, was like, oh, well, I'm just gonna be in the companionship phase at 30. Like this cute old married couple that's just like likes to go for walks at night and you know, best friends, but didn't have any of the other like things that I actually thought like needed, but didn't know at the time that I needed. I just needed at that time safety. And um, and that's the, you know, my ex-husband did provide that for me. He provided this kind of stability I had never had growing up. I had never found on my own. It was he was very grounded, he was very structured. That was something I didn't have and something I desperately needed. And um, we were married for 15 years. And in that 15 years, you know, the first five years were really like we biked together, we went for walks together, we we had a lot in common. Um, but the the sexual intimacy that we did have, what the little that we did have slowly eroded over time to where we were having sex once a month and then once every couple months, and then it was like once a year.
SPEAKER_00And this was in the this process was in the first five years. By like the end of the first five years, that was that was how often you were having sex.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. By the end of the first five years, it was maybe like a couple of times a year. And then, you know, it started to happen because I didn't know about repair, I didn't know about emotional maturity. Um, I that built up a lot of resentment. And um I also just felt this part of me that wanted to come out and express, but I didn't want to cheat on him. And I knew how damaging that was in a relationship and how horrible it had felt to me, and that he didn't deserve that. Um, and so I just I remember consciously like shutting my sexual energy down and being like, I'm just gonna shut this down because this is just gonna be easier for me to stay in this relationship if I just shut this down. And that was a big part of my life force energy that I had shut down that I didn't realize at the time. Um, I just knew that's the only way I could stay in the marriage, and it it felt really important for me to stay in the marriage.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I I really appreciate and honor you sharing that part of the story because that's also something that a lot more people experience than they realize other people experience. You know, like coming kind of back to the women women want sex thing, the uh isolation and loneliness of feeling like I am in a marriage that has lost physical intimacy and the and feeling like this is a secret that I want to keep the shame and the failure and all those things that come along with it. And it is it is not an uncommon story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, it's not, and I realized that more and more the more that I started being more vulnerable and talking to other women, like, well, this is actually an epidemic in a way.
SPEAKER_00Did you and you were at the same time you were still doing hair? So you were still having these conversations with women and realizing that and so you actually were having the opportunity to experience that, yes, I am not the only one going through this, where a lot of women might feel that they're alone in that. But you were having women sit in your chair and tell you similar stories of feeling that part of them unfulfilled.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and not only that part of them unfulfilled sexually, but like um what I saw a lot, and it was something I experienced that was the hardest part of, you know, towards the last. So we were married for 15 years, and I knew for the last five years, like I didn't 100% know for sure, but I really started to feel my heart's truth of like, this is a good marriage, but good compared to what? Good compared to my friend whose husband was cheating on her all the time, or my other friend whose husband was an alcoholic, or my other friend whose husband didn't ever have a job. And it's like, well, he has a job and he treats me good, and we have friendships, so like that's good. And it was good, you know, based on those models that I'd seen, but there was something deep inside of me that was like, I want, I want more. I want more than good. And and I just didn't know how to meet myself there. But also this feeling of like, I don't feel capable now to be on my own, even though I had been on my own. You know, I didn't get married until I was 29 and I had lived on my own and supported myself. And I've had a job since I was 16. I paid for my college, I paid for all my own stuff. And somehow then within this codependent marriage, I started to believe the story of not being capable. And that's something I saw in my chair a lot with women is, you know, I've I've raised the kids, I've done these things, I've supported him. I'm I'm not capable of supporting myself. I don't know what to do. And finding that strength within me of like changing that story of I am capable, um, that took a long time to not only mentally give yourself permission, but then to fully embody enough to actually leave the situation and and take that leap of faith and have the courage to believe in yourself. And then if you fall, then just who's gonna catch you? It's yourself. You you gotta know that you can catch yourself to be in that situation. And um another thing that was really hard is I'm very progressive and very open, and he started um wanting to express himself differently. And I went through this really beautiful process of like what masculinity means as far as energy, but then presenting physically. So he started wearing makeup. We had a Halloween party, and it was a drag queen Halloween party. Everyone was supposed to dress up in drag. So I dressed up as Brad Pitt and he dressed up as Angelina Julie, and he looked so beautiful. First, I was kind of like, oh, he makes a prettier girl than me. I don't know how I feel about this. And then the other part was just how happy he was and how he loved being in the outfit and he got his nails done and he had the outfit and and just like he was and he was passing. Like, you know, there were some guys at the party who didn't know him who were like hitting on him. And I could see that that lit him up, like to be seen like that, and it was very confusing for me. And then after the Halloween party, you know, he's like, Well, what do you think if I keep the nails on for a little bit longer? And I was like, Oh. And you know, my instant reaction was like, Well, I don't like that. I don't, I don't like I don't like that. But I didn't want to stifle his self-expression because of my thinking, you know, and so I was like, Well, if that's something you want to do, then you know, then you should do it and and I'll be okay with it. And I tried to convince myself to be okay with it, and then it slowly progressed to where he was wearing makeup every day, and then he started buying high heels, and then you know, we had this like this room full of thousands of dollars of wigs and shoes and clothes, and it was kind of the elephant in the room that I was like, oh, that's just of self-expression, that's just his creativity, and and I just need to get myself to be okay with it and be more progressive and be more open.
SPEAKER_00So so you have I'm hearing this conflict between your ideals of his feminine expression and and again his specifically in how he wanted to present, presenting dressing and woman and and makeup and everything, um, and that being that being you these ideals that there's nothing wrong with that, but then also the part of you that desired a man that desired something other than that. And so have and having this like moral dilemma of how can I be authentic to my own desires without compromising my own ideals.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And just um what I really did was gaslight myself, you know, to convince myself that I was okay with it. And and honestly, if we weren't married, you know, I have no issue with anyone who wants to express themselves however they want to express themselves. And and even for him, I love him and I want him to express himself the way that he wants to express himself. And how do I allow him to express himself the way he wants to express himself and not like have my needs? And that was the conflict I was in. And so I just chose to like be more loving. It was like what I had told myself, like it's more loving. I want to create a safe space for him to express himself while I was completely shutting down my self-expression. And um and then I met, you know.
SPEAKER_00So you were married for 15 years. What what point in the marriage was that Halloween party where this side of him started to uh show up?
SPEAKER_03I'm trying to think, I think it was maybe five like six or seven years in, probably.
SPEAKER_00So you were married for seven or eight years at least after that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And it was definitely a slow progression. Like it kind of started with the acrylic nails and then the makeup, and then the makeup turned into just like covering up the dark circles to like mascara, to blush, to eyeshadow, to lip gloss, to growing out his hair, to then wearing, you know, women's jeans and ballet flats. And and then for a period of time, I then this is so manipulative, which I can see now. Like I had this thought of if I can just help him create enough safety for him to fully come out. I have a feeling he'll probably fully want to dress as a woman. And maybe I can create the safe space for that for him, and then we can just divorce and become friends. So then I actually started encouraging it and like telling him, Oh, you should wear that, you should do that. And um, it was really unfair to him because he in his mind was thinking, I'm okay with this. And he was so happy. I remember that was like the happiest time he's ever been, even though that was a time I went into deep depression. Because he was like, Oh my God, she accepts me, she loves me, she's encouraging me to do this. And um my sister had bought me, it was 2020, and she had bought me uh a Tantra. Her friend had come into town and was doing like a Tantra thing. And for my birthday, she did like a private Tantra night, and it was all about connection and connection to your own sexual energy. And I remember crying the whole workshop. It was like a five or six hour workshop, and I just was crying because I just knew I was never going to have that with my partner, and I didn't want to have that on my own. I wanted to have that with a partner. And um, then I started talking to the facilitator about energy, and that's where I really learned the difference between because I was like, he's feminine, he's feminine, he's feminine. And she's like, he doesn't sound feminine energetically, he sounds very masculine energetically. So then I talked to my ex husband and was like, Hey, why don't we like learn Tantra? Because Tantra, so like normal, you know, human sexuality is very base level. It's the lower three chakras of like, I just want to go out and fuck something, and very primal. And With Tantra, you learn how to move it up through the heart and have a soul level connection. And so I thought, oh, well, we can just, since we're not getting the primal part, then we'll just move it up through the heart and have the soul level connection. So then I still had hope that there was like this um different type of connection that would be more fulfilling for us. And in that, we worked together with her for a year. Um we I did learn that his energy is very masculine and very stoic, very structured, very logical, very linear, um, very contained. And that actually what I was craving and wanting was more of a feminine energy with a masculine presenting. Like I'm very attracted physically, which matters, right? To men who are very masculine, who have a beard, who have, you know, um. And but energetically are very feminine, very nurturing, very soft, very emotional, very in touch with their emotions. So it was a very big mindfuck for me because I was like, it just my whole world was kind of like turning and shifting. And I was like, I don't know what's happening here. Um, we worked with her for a year and and then we made agreements. So, like in those agreements, when she was doing my personal work with me, she was like, You are self-sacrificing. You are not asking for your needs. You're not actually okay with this. Like, what are you okay with? So she helped facilitate some conversation where we made agreements where it was like, okay, I'm actually not okay with the full on feminine dress. And it's not like he walked around in a dress or anything, but it was very much, you know, when we'd go out to the mall or go out with people, people would look at us like, is that a lesbian couple, but they could tell that he was a man, but he looked like a woman, and people would ask him what his pronouns were all the time. I mean, people would yell at us in the store and call us freaks. And it was just something that I, again, built up more resentment for because I was like, I didn't sign up for this. Like I married someone who very physically presented as a man. He worked with his hands, he was very masculine, and then I felt like the whole game got changed on me.
SPEAKER_00Well, and you know, kind of going back, it wasn't just I think it's important to note that this wasn't happening in the with the backdrop of a of sexual of a sexual connection, right? You uh weren't also having sex.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you were having both that experience as well as the experience of many women whose husbands continue to present like a man, but just lose that sexual connection. Like neither of, or at least your sexual needs were not getting met.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my need of feeling desired. Like it's so important for the feminine. Like I said, the reason I got into hair, the reason I got into these, like making these costumes and doing these big travel retreats that I do, these time travel retreats, is because I love, I love beauty, I love art. And as a woman, you want to feel desired by the masculine. You want, like, you do your hair and makeup and wear these outfits, and like you do it for yourself so that you look at yourself in the mirror and are like, dang, I look cute today. But you also love that feedback of like being witnessed in your beauty. Like the feminine likes to be seen in her beauty and be like, damn, baby, look good. And that was just something that was really hard for him to express for throughout our whole marriage. Like, I can count on like two hands how many times he was like, Wow, you look really pretty without me saying, Do I look nice? Like, do you think I look nice?
SPEAKER_00Well, and you know, not to argue with polarity dogma, but um that is also something men want to experience. And I think that that's something people want to experience. They want to experience desire, right? And and oftentimes we hear this like we want sex. But you there's a lot of marriages, and this is why I am someone who is very much opposed to the idea of giving sex maintenance sex, or these, you know, these people that go to therapy and they're like, Well, why don't you just have sex once a week? And the woman will give sex, or the man will give sex, or whichever partner is not wanting it will give it because it doesn't work. What we really want is to be desired, and what we really want is to be desired in our in a in an expression that's authentic to its side of us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so he was wanting that from you as well. Yeah. And you were literally unable to give it to him. He was literally unable to give it to you.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I I keep going back to that moment when you shared at the party when he felt like desired and appreciated in an expression that aligned with his inner world, and how that was the happiest you'd ever seen him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that was a big part of um the unwinding of our marriage is you know, my sister always has no hard telling me the hard truth. And she was like, he wants someone to look at him and desire him in that. And then so with our agreements with my tantra coach, part of the agreements we made is I was traveling a lot. I owned a business in Colorado. I was going out there for a week every month at least. So it's gone, you know, a fourth of the year. And um so like our agreements were like, okay, you can minimize your makeup, you can do the do your nails, but no, you know, dressing like a woman around me. But when I'm gone for a week, why don't you use that time and express yourself? Because if it's your for your creativity, which is what he kept telling me, like, this is just my creative outlet, this is my creative expression. I was like, well, then you should do that. You know, like I I like to get dressed up and wear my crowns and wear my robes, and and I do it just for me. I don't do it actually around, you know, other people. But I like to do it, you know, at my home, like by myself. I like to look in the mirror and wear crowns and put on these amazing outfits and like just for the sake of like stepping into an archetypal character or something. And so I just thought that would like solve our problems. Like, oh, he'll get it out of his system. And then when I come home, like I'll have my man back, kind of a thing. And and he never did it. He he he never took advantage of it. And I was like, Well, why aren't you doing it? And then he was like, I want you to see me in it. Like he he wanted me to see him in it and desire him. You're exactly right, Chad, when you said that. That was like that when that hit me, that's when I realized this was never going to work.
SPEAKER_00It's there's a lot of things in a relationship that are a choice. Desire is not one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and it's unfortunate, you know, I I had that same experience having had my my marriage end because my ex-wife became a lesbian, and that was not something the the heartbreak of wanting something that the other partner is incapable of giving. And and the the ways that we go about trying to avoid the inevitable um, you know, they're they're heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's when I really saw the truth of like without me completely self-sacrificing me and my needs and the needs of feeling desired, but the needs of also like having desire and having pleasure in this way. And then him self-sacrificing, you know, for him to meet me there, he's giving up a lot of his expression and his, and when he and when he did that, that I believe, you know, he he suffered from depression our whole entire marriage. And I believe a big part of that was like this part of him that just feels different and like, why can't I just be a normal guy? Why can't I just be a normal person? And it's like, well, you're not. You're not wired that way. Like we're just wired a certain way, right? And he just wasn't. And he was trying to be wired for what I needed him to be, and I was trying to rewire myself. We were both self-sacrificing to try to meet each other here, but we could only ever meet each other here when really what we both wanted was to be up here. And I realized the true essence of love is like if you love someone, like really love them, and you're you can't give them what you need, then real love lets them go. And that's was a really hard thing for me to realize like, if I really love him, I need to let him go. And if I really love me, I need to let this go because I deserve more, and I love me, and I love him, and he deserves more. Like we both can never give each other what we need.
SPEAKER_00And his self-abandonment much like yours from a societal level, right? When you say this isn't what I signed up for, is because that's what he had he had self-abandoned those parts of him to fit into the mold of patriarchy and the mold of of traditional masculinity, um that he wasn't even able to touch into that until five years into your marriage.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so this kind of a lot of these realizations you said happened around 2020 or throughout the course of that um tantric uh practice that you guys had done together. But the the story had more parts to it before the act before that actual letting go took place, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. The you know, a lot of it to what what I do a lot in my coaching is um inner child work and parts work.
SPEAKER_00And um When did you start when did you first get into coaching, the practice of coaching?
SPEAKER_03Um, I mean, to be honest, I did it the whole time I was doing hair without knowing it. Just because I am the queen of like, I need another certification and another course. And so even the whole time I was doing hair, I was like getting trained in this and and going to Tony Robbins, and then I did landmark and reading these books and like it does have a very impressive resume, I have to admit.
SPEAKER_00It's very intimidating the first time that we were speaking together. It's an event.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, it well, it comes from like my one of my biggest core wounds is that I'm stupid. And so I'm just thought, well, the only way to like be not stupid is to get like all these courses and all these certifications to prove that I'm not stupid, which was just silly, but you know, I have so much compassion for that part of myself. And um I I really like I would bartend and I would talk to people bartending, and I just like loved connecting, but really mostly I just loved figuring out why people were stuck and like what was keeping them from getting stuck. And almost always it came back to inner the inner child, right? Like there's this part of us, this younger part of us, this fearful part of us that feels not enough, feels like we're unlovable, feels like no one can hear us or understand us, feels that we're not smart, feels that we don't have anything to say. And it's like in loving that part of you and holding that part of you with gentleness and tenderness, but not letting that part of you drive the car, because otherwise your car just stays parked. Um, I started learning a lot about attachments. Cause when you have an unhappy marriage, you know, what do you do when you're a fixer? Is you like, I'm gonna read every book about relationship that exists, and I'm gonna take relationships courses. So, and he wouldn't do them with me. He wouldn't read them with me. So I'm like, I will read them and I will fix us. Don't worry. And so I started reading all these books about attachment style. And I remember reading the book, Getting the Love You Want. And in that book, they talk a lot. It's like one of the best relationship books ever. Highly recommend it. And they talk a lot about how you marry the unhealed parts of your mother and father in, you know, your partner and you come together to heal your inner child wounds. And I was like, Well, my dad's kind of quiet, and my ex-husband was kind of quiet. So that kind of tracks. But then what I really saw was that my mom was very depressed and very um suicidal. And she had, you know, put that on me. I was her confidant as a small child. She would, if I asked for money and she didn't have money, she would say, Fine, I'm just gonna go kill myself so you can have my insurance money. And then she would check herself into a hotel room and I didn't know if she was coming home or not. And I remember asking my dad, Did mom kill herself? And he was like, I don't, I don't know. With awareness and different states of consciousness and different levels of healing, like then you're ready for new information, you know? And so I had created enough safety in my body to like start to see these patterns. And I remember when the pattern hit me of like, oh my God, I married my mom and I'm healing that part of me. The pattern that I had was this pattern of like, I have to make sure they're okay. And if they're okay, then I'm okay. Even if I'm abandoning self, which is what I had learned to do as a five-year-old, like, mom's not okay. If I manage mom, she's not gonna divorce my dad, she's not gonna kill herself, she's not gonna break up our family. So as long as I make sure everyone around me is okay by people pleasing, self-sacrificing, nurturing, devouring mother is the archetypal pattern. And um, then then I'll be okay. So then, of course, I married someone that had depression, was suicidal. And and as long as I made them okay, then they were gonna be okay. And as long as they were okay, I was okay. So during 2020, you know, our salons got shut down. So we had four salons, they all got shut down. Uh, we had actually bought a fifth salon three months before COVID. So we had five salons at the time. And um, and then also I worked doing hair and it all got shut down. And so that's a really good time to go inward. And that's I started doing EMDR. I was like, well, I actually have time for this. I'm gonna start doing some EMDR on some of these patterns. And I saw the pattern with my mom really clearly, and I saw that pattern in my marriage. And it took me four years to um create enough safety for my little girl, enough safety to like know like my nervous system to believe that I was capable and to believe my story of unworthiness that this is what I deserved, um, to work through and heal that. And that's why I like I used to be a self-love coach. Now I'm just an alignment coach. But like self-love is the core of everything. Like, if you have self-doubt, if you have fear of failure, if you have imposter syndrome, all of that stuff comes down to like self-love and self-compassion. And so it's like the root cause, but people who don't have self-love don't want to invest in themselves. So you gotta like make it like, oh, we're gonna help you make more money or do better in your business. And then it always comes down to like there's little five-year-old in there that just needs love and a big hug. Um, but I remember seeing that pattern very clearly, and and then I specifically worked on that pattern for like a few years and getting that pattern out of my body and then building up a new story of, you know what? He's he's almost 50. If he decides to take his life, that's not on me. I can't be there all the time. I can't, it's actually not mine to own. Like I am in charge of me and my life, and he is in charge of him and his life. And really, like this journey of sovereignty of like no one or no thing has power over me. And same with like treating him as if he's sovereign, because he is, you know. Like when I come from my wholeness and sovereignty, I get to see other people in their wholeness and sovereignty. When I'm coming from my wounds, of I'm not capable, then I see other people as not capable. So, like the more that we steal ourselves from our wholeness, the more that we can see others in their wholeness. And I was just like, he's gonna figure it out and he'll be okay or not. And it's really not up to me. It's his life. Like, if he wants to do that, that's what he's gonna do. And when I told him, when I did tell him like I want a divorce, I remember coming home and he had had his gun and he was going up to the mountains and he was going to shoot himself. And I knew as soon as I got home that that's like what was happening. And instantly I was like, my worst fear is coming true. This, you know, this is what's gonna happen. And so I called my mentor I'd been working with, and she was like, You're not qualified expert to handle this. You need to call um crisis hotline, suicide hotline. You need to call them right now. Here's the number, and he's putting his life in your hands, and that's not fair. And that's what I did. I I called uni, I called Crisis Hotline, they came over to our house. We created a safety plan. I ended up staying for another month till like things were stable because I felt like I owed him that and I couldn't live with myself not doing that. Um, but but it's been a big process of unfolding and unwinding of like that is not mine town.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I I just want to spend a moment with that because the experience of someone having another person in their life um expressing suicidal ideation is such an isolating one because there is in parallel with this desire to keep them safe, is this desire to keep their secrets. And I'm really grateful that you had someone in your life to tell you that. And that's something I've had to have conversations before many times with people. Um you if someone is expressing suicidal ideation, then the uh the priority of keeping their image needs to go completely out the window. And you need to reach out. You need to reach out to people who are competent, who are qualified, because it is way too much to put on another human being and um we don't know what to do. Um, you know, and somebody else might. So at the same time, it's not fair to us to have that put upon us, but it's also if we re like we really care about that person, we need to make that decision for them. And honestly, unfortunately, in the moment of depression and suicidal ideation, the desire to keep that secret is even stronger, right? And often people will say, Don't tell anybody, and you have to this one time where you have to make the hard call for someone else and do whatever it takes to get them held.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And that was um that was the first time that I really was able to embody this decision of like I'm not responsible for him. And and this is like I can't I can't save him. And this is what I can do. Like, what can I do? You know, I was trying to control everything, and like you said, have this persona of pretending. Like, I mean, I was depressed for a few years and coaching people and and you know, doing hair, and and just I would walk in and I'd have this fake smile, like put on, like I had this character that I would step into, this character of like, it's good, everything's good. I got together, I got my jokes, I got this, I'm the best hostess. I'm I'm so nice. I'm like I loved being like so nice and like having people love me and and having friends. And and now that's like the least interesting thing about me. But it was like a persona that that kept me safe because that's the way I had learned to survive childhood. And and it's really moving out that survival energy out of my body and being like, I'm not in survival. And I think it really, it really helps to like embody these things to know what you're made of. And it's kind of like you, you said on I think this is maybe the episode where I was interviewing you, like, you can't, if you want patience, then like God's gonna give you a bunch of things to be patients with. And like one thing I always loved is like, I'm always like, I'm freaking resilient, you know? And it's like, if you want to know that you're resilient, like after I had left him, uh, my sister was leave going to India for two months. So I was gonna just stay at her house and give myself two months to figure it out. My mom got diagnosed with stage four cancer. And that was then a whole other thing of like, oh my gosh, like how interesting that I have this pattern with my mom and this pattern that's been repeated in this marriage, and I'm ending this pattern, and I'm ending this marriage, and my mom just got diagnosed with stage four cancer. It was just a really like cosmic thing of seeing all the dots connected, of being like, wow, this pattern's really coming to completion. Because then here I am too, going through a divorce and and learning how to be on my own and learn like where am I gonna live? And I had just started my coaching business for Rails. Like I'd done coaching for a little bit here and there, but never taken it like seriously.
SPEAKER_00And um You moved into full-time coaching about the same time that your your marriage ended.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And and then, you know, not jumping in to save my mom because like my mom needed to go to cancer treatments. She needed a lot of help. She she had these really terrible burns. She did came all these things, you know. It's just the worst disease, cancer. And um, she needed a lot of help. And and being like, what do I have available that feels good? And where how can I not overgive here? How can I not self-sacrifice here? Which was really helpful. And then I ended up moving into my friend's basement. She's like, you can stay with me for, you know, till you get back on your feet. And then two months into that, she's like, actually, you need to move out. And so then I again the rug got pulled under me and my nervous system was like, I just barely started to feel a little bit calm. And um, but now you know that I'm a year outside of that, like I'm so grateful to all of those things. Cause now I actually know I'm freaking resilient. Cause I went through the whole thing with integrity, with grace, with compassion. Um, most of the time being gentle on myself. And um, in the midst of all of that, still having the courage to love. You know, like in the midst of that, my I had signed up for this Tantra Apprentice program that I was going to start shifting. I wanted to do inner child work and then I wanted to get more into sexual embodiment. So I was signed up to be a Tantra apprentice. And she really wanted me, you know, I was helping her with a lot of her groups. And and one thing I knew that I really needed to heal was sexual intimacy. Like I knew I was really good at having friends. I've always had really good, close friendships. I've always been able to have healthy repair with good, close friendships, but I had never um been in a safe, healthy relationship. I didn't even know I'd had either men who cheated on me and used me and only wanted me for sex, or this other man who wanted everything but. And I had created a story that I couldn't have both and um that both didn't exist and that I was too much and all of these things. And um, I remember her telling me, so like the timeline is I had in October, so it's a year now, uh, left. My husband told him my mom got diagnosed in December. And at that same time, in November, we had a Tantra retreat, and my Tantra coach came and stayed with me for a week. And we were talking about intimacy and emotional intimacy and sexual energy and you know, all those things. And she was like, I really want you to be a part of our next Tantra program, which is uh in March. And I was like, okay, and she's but it was a couples one. And I was like, Well, I don't have a couple anymore, I'm not part of a couple anymore. She's like, Don't worry, I'll find you someone. And instantly Why does that sound familiar? I know, I know. But instantly when she said it, you know, I'm very intuitive, and um, I can feel things just like come into my field, and I can just feel this like resonance, this ping of like, oh, there's something more here. And I remember her even like telling me about this guy who was like this engineer, and he but he was like became a men's sexual intimacy coach. And, you know, I just remember thinking, oh, there's something to this guy that she's telling me about that was very intriguing energetically to me. And um, and then I was just like, I don't know, yeah, well, let's think about it, let's talk about it. And then, you know, after the holidays, because it was my first holiday, not being married and not being able to be with my kids, like my stepsons went and supported their dads. So I was like, my first Thanksgiving alone, my first Christmas alone, and it was first time putting up a tree alone, and it was just like a lot of firsts that were really hard for me. And my sister, who's my best friend, was out of the country, and um, so it was just like learning how to do all those things on my own. And so then I was just like, give me through the holidays, and then um in January, she's like, Okay, I think we should schedule a call to see energetically how you two kind of like match up and line up. And um, I remember like our first call, you were just very emotionally expressive. That was just so different for me. I was like, hmm. And then um, I don't know, I think we agreed to go to lunch, right? We were just like, hey, let's go to lunch and see if we can like meet each other or whatever.
SPEAKER_00And well, the the first time we met, you just came over briefly to my house. And the only reason I bring that up is because it's something that you had said. You said even in the midst of all that, you had still found the courage to have your heart open. And I just want to test to that. And that was the first thing I remember about meeting you is you come over and we just met for like ten minutes. You were on your way from one place to the other, and you started crying. And you were just like, and I can't remember exact words you said, but you were basically just like, I'm just having processes right now, it's okay. And I was just like, Wow, okay. That's you were you didn't even apologize for your feelings, which shouldn't be a big thing, but in this world it is. And so, you know, when you said that, like I had the courage, even in all that, to keep my heart open. Like that really resonated with me because that was the first thing that I the first memory I really remember being like, wow, about you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I was definitely very conscious of knowing that my pattern was to stay very busy and numb myself with alcohol and social activities. And um, and I was very much like, I don't want to store this grief. I don't want to be five years from now having all this armor and all of these feelings underneath, like you gotta feel it to heal it, you know, which sounds easy on a bumper sticker, but when you're in the shit, you're like, another grief process. And I was in this very beautiful place of surrender where I'd be driving, and all of a sudden I would just be hit with the feeling of grief. And I would just pull over on the side of the road and just let myself cry. It was the first time I'd ever give myself permission to just not be this perfect, happy pretending everything's okay and just be like, my life's freaking crappy right now. So I'm just gonna feel it. And I remember pulling over and just let myself cry and scream and whatever, and then being like, huh, okay, let's put a good song on. It's time to shift energy. I'd put a, I was listening to Kylie Minogue Magic a lot. So I'd just put that song on and then just start driving and being in it. And like wherever I was, I would just let myself feel it. So like I remember meeting with you and just feeling this wave of grief, just being like, oh, it's okay. I'm just feeling grief right now, and I'm just letting myself feel my feelings. And um, that's been a really beautiful process, and it still is hard for me. You know, it's still a process that I'm in.
SPEAKER_00And um You mean you didn't magically heal? I know 45 years worth of grief in six months?
SPEAKER_03Damn it. I mean, I wish, I wish.
SPEAKER_00Get it together.
SPEAKER_03I know. I should be over this by now. It's been three months. I should be over this and healed by now. That was kind of I thought I did go through that process that you hope to do.
SPEAKER_00You always have like plans too. Like three months from now, I'm gonna be. Three months from now, everything's gonna be I like timelines for my healing.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna heal all this generational trauma by January 21st. And then we're gonna celebrate. And then I'll live happily ever after. Um no, but what like was really cool about meeting you. I remember we went, I was like, Do you want to be my date for this Valentine's party? And um, but I was very clear to be like, this is not a date because I'm not dating anyone, I'm not gonna date anyone for three years until I moved to Scotland. I have a plan.
SPEAKER_00It was Schrodinger's date.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Little nerd joke for part of the audience.
SPEAKER_03And um, and so I went to this, you know, karaoke party with people I didn't actually know that well. And they were all coming out of the Mormon church and just being like 20-year-olds, wild and crazy, you know, you kind of talked about a little bit with your story. But but what was really powerful for me to witness, I remember thinking, you had never karaoked before. And it was a karaoke party. And now, granted, he did have a lot of liquid courage.
SPEAKER_00Not all of it that I intentionally imbibed.
SPEAKER_03This is true. He did slightly get almost a raped.
SPEAKER_00I got a little, I got a little low-key roofied.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yes. Uh his drink, he only had two drinks, but they somehow never went down. They never they were always full. Um, and I remember watching him karaoke, and he's just like singing prints and like ripped open his shirt. And first of all, he's like, this engineer, and he, you know, he had had these glasses, and he's like, Look at my glasses, aren't they cute? And I was like, Yeah, they're cute, glasses.
SPEAKER_01They were cute.
SPEAKER_03And you had this like button-up shirt. And I don't know, you just I was just like, I had the stereotype in my mind of like what an engineer looked like, and you looked exactly like how I thought an engineer should look like. And he started singing this prince song, and he rips open a shirt and he's like covered in tattoos. And I remember thinking to myself, hmm, there's definitely more to this guy that meets the eye. And I remember my friend was near me and she's like, I did not see that for him. I was like, Yeah, I know. And then also, I just what I what I really loved about it, Chad, is your freedom of self-expression. And I remember thinking to myself, this guy is gonna help me learn to express myself because that is something that I had had a really hard time with. And um, and then also just how warm and you know, my ex-husband was very shy. And when we'd go to parties, he'd be like, Don't leave me. Like I couldn't leave him. I couldn't stay too, I had to stay near him and make sure no one talked. And he's like, Don't let this person talk to me. I don't want to talk to this person. So I was always kind of in social situations of like, okay, I can't leave him, but like I'm a super extrovert to the highest degree, and like I thrive in social situations of meeting new people. And here we were, like going to this party together, and you were just like talking. Hi, how are you? I'm chat. And I remember one of the other guys came up to me and was like, Who brought this guy? And I was like, I did. And he's like, He's the most unexpected delight. Like, he you need to bring him to every party. And I was like, I am fun at parties. You are fun at parties, and and it was just so like you were so liberated and you were just so free. And um, and we hadn't had any like sexual connection or sexual energy or or even any talk really about it, except for No, I remember I brought you flowers and chocolates because it was Valentine's Day, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I know it was a non-date date, but it was like you could get Valentine's chocolates, and you were just like, oh shit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was all worried. I was like, oh, he thinks it's a day, it's not a but then what happened, if you don't mind if I share.
SPEAKER_02Not at all.
SPEAKER_03Is you know, I a lot of my sexual trauma had happened with alcohol. And at that time I was being sober and I hadn't actually drank for like three months. And um it you, you know, you weren't able to drive home and it was raining and I didn't bring my glasses. And I remember feeling kind of unsafe because I was like, I have to drive us home, like I'm not gonna let you drive. And you were like, Can you you're gonna have to drive us home? Is that okay?
SPEAKER_00And I was like, Yeah, but But I I think it should we should point out that I had told you going out there, I I won't get drunk. I'll just have one or two drinks. And even though I technically meant that criteria, um, I had uh I told you I would do something, and I had failed to do it in a way that left you in a bad spot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And then um, you know, when you're you're drunk and you're you're fun and you're singing these songs, it was kind of like you were like calling me a baby and like kind of I don't remember that you know, putting your hand on my leg, and I was like, oh, and my I just remember my body feeling so unsafe in the situation, and I was like, I don't know this guy very well. I'm fresh off the boat of separation, and I do not feel safe in my body. And then it actually um it made me like pull in, which I've noticed is like really my pattern is like kind of pull all the way in and just put up this like energetic walls of like pushing people out. And I remember talking with my tantra coach who had like orchestrated our healing partnership, which we were all just making up as we go along, as you were saying. Like we didn't really know what was going on, but we're like going along with the flow. And she was like, and I was like, I just don't want to be his, I don't want to be his partner anymore. I don't, I don't feel safe. I don't know, I don't, I didn't like that. And um, and then she was like, Well, why don't you just kind of talk to him, talk to him about it? And I was like, well, we'll see. And um we had had, so you had called me that weekend and I didn't respond or texted me and I didn't respond. And I think I was in a ceremony or something, which is actually why I didn't respond. But um, I didn't prioritize obviously responding, but we had had scheduled uh a Tantra energetic date because at the time we were like, Hey, do you want to come over and regulate your nervous system with me? And um, so we had had like a Tantra day where we were gonna actually go through like a practices, Tantra practice and make the eye contact and sink our breathing and and all these things. And so we had had that already on the calendar. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm just gonna go to that, I'm gonna go to this last thing and then we'll see how it goes, kind of a thing. Like I was still open. Like I would say I was still open and curious, but like it was kind of like we'll see how this thing goes, and then I'll either end it or or not, whatever. And before we start, I was like, okay, well, let's get into the, you know, I gotta check my boxes, let's get into the tantra practice. And you were like, wait, before we get into that, can we have a conversation about what happened? And I was like, Yeah, and you're like, because I don't remember a lot of what happened, and you know, you didn't text me back, and I'm I'm starting to think, you know, these things. And I remember feeling like I might as well just tell him what what happened for me, which was really new for me. We were kind of talking about this this morning, right? Of like I didn't have a lot to lose at the time. It was like I didn't really know you that well. So if you're not my healing partner, then you're just not my healing partner, and I'll either find another one or you'll find another one, and one of us will go to the retreat, and there will be plenty more retreats in my future. So what do I have to lose? And so I was like, well, yeah, let me share how that showed up for me. And then I just shared my truth, my authentic truth of like I felt really unsafe in my body. I don't feel safe around alcohol. I don't feel like I didn't like that I had to drive home and you had said that you were gonna, you know, drive and whatever. And I remember you said, well, one thing I learned is accountability and that my words only mean so much if they're followed by my actions. And thank you for sharing that with me. And it was really powerful for me. And I had never felt so safe in my whole life. I didn't even know that level of safety was in my body. And then um, and then we ended up, you know, I think it was kind of we ended up cuddling for our first time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, some we did a few things.
SPEAKER_03Well, we did well, but the but that's it was all after that. And so, like, I remember then you were like, Do you even desire me?
SPEAKER_00And I was like, No, not really, because to be honest, I wasn't attracted to safe men still kind of which I was a bit shocked by because I was I had I had been through this process of my own wounds of of kind of what you had gone through in your 20s, where I'd had all these women come into my life that wanted me, they wanted me sexually, they found me attractive, and but they didn't want to like know and hold the inner me. And you were the first person in a long time that was like, I'm not attracted to you. And I was like, What?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, me? I know, which no, I'm like, you know, I can't even believe I thought that. Silly of me. But um, but then I remember, but I really just wasn't attracted to available men and um and safe men. And and then I remember you saying, Well, I started, I met someone on Tinder, I can't remember what the dating app was, but you're like, I met someone and I've I'm going on some dates, and so I'm kind of starting like normally I don't have time to date, but I actually have time to date right now, so I've been I'm like going on a date, and I was he's like, and I just wanted you to know. And instantly, when he was like all of a sudden not available in the way that he was, I was like, Oh, he's kind of cute. Like, there was this like instant shift. And I remember that night telling you that like you had asked me this really brave, vulnerable question, and it was hard for me not to people please and not to tell you like, no, it's nothing wrong with you. I'm just not in a place. I was just like, no. But then as soon as I said it, your response was so okay.
SPEAKER_00Like you didn't want anything from me, and instantly I mean it hurt, don't get me wrong. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But but instantly there was desire. Like instantly I felt desire.
SPEAKER_00And then I remember we ended up funny how sexy a no can be. I know, right?
SPEAKER_03Right? An embodied no. And um, and then I and then we ended up like breathing together and co-regulating together and had a really beautiful connection. And then the second night, um we you were like, hey, I'm feeling a little emotionally dysregulated. Do you want to come over and co-regulate again? And I was like, Yeah, actually I do. So then I came over and we were cuddling and I was like, So do you remember how I said that I didn't desire you? And you were like, Yeah. And I was like, actually. And you're like, what do you feel now in your body? And I was like, I feel desire. And then you're like, Do you want to play with the energy? And I was like, Yeah, I do. And you're like, okay, let's set up agreements and boundaries. And I was like, huh? You're like, yeah, consent is sexy and consent's really important, and we have to set up these agreements before we get into that energy. And no one had ever done that before. I was just like blown away. And you're like, okay, here's where we're not gonna touch, here's what we're not gonna do, here's what we're not gonna do. And I was like, What is there left to do? What was there left? You took all the options off the table that I'm used to. And I was like, this is gonna be interesting. And you were like, What you know, these are the areas, and then we're gonna just time it. We did the will of consent kind of exercise. And that night just blew my mind. And you're you instantly turned on the sexual energy that I had never seen because you'd been really careful not to like put that around me because you knew that I was like not in that space. I was like a scared little mouse. And um, and then the next day, so we had this like beautiful experience, which we'll we could go into later. And and then the next day you called to check on me, and you're like, hey, like that was a lot last night, and I just want to check on you and see how you're doing. Are you having a vulnerability hangover? Like, I just want to like check on you. And I was like, checks on someone after an energetic tantra session. And I just remember this like level of safety was present in my body that had never been accessible before, and it really, you know, the feminine needs safety to like open up. And there was a part of me that had opened up that had never been able to open up before. And it was really, really powerful.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a whole lot there we could dive into, um, but we are out of time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we should probably do like a whole we should make like a whole podcast talk about safety and love and sex. That'd be a great idea.
SPEAKER_03I know we should start a podcast about safety, love, and interesting.
SPEAKER_00We have all this equipment. Before before we go, um I did have one question I'd like to ask you that you know, we've kind of spent a lot of time telling the story about, um, which is a big part of your story, right? 15 years of marriage. And here you are now about a year removed from that separation, having had a very transformational year. What what do you what do you want for your ex partner?
SPEAKER_01What do I want for my ex partner?
SPEAKER_03I want him To believe and have the courage to believe that he gets to have love and feel desired exactly how he is, expressing all parts of himself.
SPEAKER_00That feels really beautiful. I want him to like walk down State Street swinging those hips. I got a little flamboyant side of my own. Not really a feminine one, but a good hip sway is just very good for the soul every now and then. What's one piece of advice you'd leave an audience with to give them hope and love?
SPEAKER_03But love is not something outside of you. Love is who you are. And the more that you embody that you are love, the more that like the mirror, the world just mirrors love to you. And so just remember that you are love.
SPEAKER_00Can I add something? You're telling this story, and we talked about it a little bit today, and you went in a lot more in-depth to it on this. And there was a moment. There was a moment where timelines hinged on you having the courage to express something difficult to express. That that I'd hurt you, that I'd disappointed you, and that you had felt unsafe. And I'm really grateful that you found that courage. None of this would have happened if not for that moment that you chose to be brave. So remember everyone, be brave. Love is worth it.