Safe to Love

Shame Has Never Fixed a Man - Here Is What Actually Works | Chad Nielson | EP207

• Chad Nielson and April Benincosa • Season 2 • Episode 7

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In this episode, Chad takes an honest, vulnerable look at the real masculinity crisis — where it comes from, what it's costing men and the women who love them, and what actually rebuilds identity and attraction. This conversation is for the woman who wants to understand the man in her life, and for the man who feels something is missing but has no language for it. Explore masculinity, emotional identity, sexual polarity, men's mentorship, and why shame never creates the change we're desperately looking for.


In this interview, you'll learn:

  1. How Chad redefined masculinity after years of rejecting it entirely
  2. Why playground dominance wiring still drives adult male behavior
  3. The cultural vacuum that made Andrew Tate possible — and what actually fills it
  4. Why telling men what NOT to be created more damage than it solved
  5. How labeling emotions as "feminine" quietly kills men's growth and your relationship
  6. The real difference between masculine and feminine energy frameworks — and why Chad pushes back on the popular version
  7. Why men doing inner work FOR their partner almost always backfires
  8. What sovereignty actually looks like in a man — and why women are more attracted to it than they realize
  9. How women can support a man's growth without trying to fix him
  10. Why men's community is the single most impactful thing for a relationship — more than coaching or retreats



With Love and Safety,

Chad & April ❤️


What We Discuss:

0:00 Why physical strength feels like identity to young men but isn't

5:59 Playground dominance: how boys define strength before they understand it

9:49 Strength of will vs. strength of character, and why it matters in relationships

13:59 How adversity and mentorship together are the only things that build real character

21:59 Why the mentorship gap is a generational crisis, and where men are going to fill it

23:10 The unmet need Andrew Tate exploits, and what it reveals about modern masculinity

27:30 Men in the wild: the Costco moment that started a bigger conversation

29:54 Why social media creates a distorted reality about how bad men actually are

34:29 The fracture inside men who rejected masculinity wholesale, including Chad

38:45 Why "masculine and feminine energy" language backfires with men who want to feel like men

41:39 The dinner table story: four men talking about feelings, one phrase, and sudden silence

44:51 Why women connecting to their masculine is empowering, while men connecting to their feminine feels threatening

46:16 What women actually crave vs. what men fear losing when they drop the performance

49:15 Sexual polarity: the real energy underneath attraction, and why it gets weaponized

54:25 The women who've given up on men, and the women who want Chad to fix their husbands

56:35 Why caring about men's inner world is controversial, and why it matters anyway

59:02 The global argument: how the feminine rage uprising and masculine identity crisis are the same wound from two sides

1:00:06 Why shame and blame never fix anything, and what actually does

1:03:30 The catch-22 of pleasing your partner: why trying harder makes attraction fade

1:07:19 Chad's final word to women: what believing in your man actually looks like

1:09:14 Chad's final word to men: stop giving other people the power to define who you are


Link to Podcast with Cam Fraser:
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If you're serious about ...

❤️ Work With Chad
Instagram |  @chadonlove

❤️  Work with April
Instagram |  @aprilbenincosa 

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Why physical strength feels like identity to young men but isn't

SPEAKER_01

Don't talk to women at the gym. Don't be creepy. Don't be threatening. Don't have sex with some without their consent, which by the way is a really good thing. Yeah. But we didn't teach them what to do. We didn't provide any mentorship or guidance. We created a vacuum. We created this space where there was a whole lot of men who are like, I don't feel like a man. I don't feel manly. And maybe they didn't even have those words for it, but they could feel something. Something was off. Something was missing inside of them. Made men very vulnerable to voices like Andrew Tate. What inevitably creates this pipeline? We can talk about it like sales or engineering. What's the unmet need? And there was an unmet need in men. And we left the door open for people to come in and exploit it. We're never going to solve that problem by yelling louder about what's wrong. We're never going to solve that problem with shame. We've never solved the problem with shame in our life in the history of mankind. And I will die on that hill. And we never will. We have to provide men an alternative that also honors and recognizes that men want to feel like men.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to Safe to Love. We are on a mission to help the world believe in love again and give you the courage to find it. And I'm so excited to interview my love, my divine masculine man to talk about divine masculine masculinity or just masculinity or just men. Who knows? We'll see. We'll see what we're going to talk about. Chad, welcome to your show. I would love to talk with you about this really important topic that comes up a lot in our personal relationship because we have a little bit of difference of nuanced opinion or semantics with it. Something we talk about a lot in our relationship, and that is masculinity and what defines a strong man. All these men are out there online wanting to learn how to be a strong man. And I would love to hear what you have to say about what it means to be a strong man in this world we live in.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I guess the question comes down to what kind of strength we're talking about. Um, you know, there is the uh literally like a strong man used to be a type of circus performer, right? Big physical strength. And there is a meaning in that. There's a meaning in that to a lot of men. Um I know that uh there's a lot of meaning in that to me. Um I know that I feel more aligned with myself when I feel physically strong, physically capable. Um I do have to admit there was a time in my life where I was really into weightlifting and I got pretty, pretty shredded and I felt pretty sexy and manly at that time. Um and also that strength is uh appealing to a lot of women. But the the thing about that type of physical strength is that it's a very easy, it's a very low-hanging fruit, especially for a lot of young men. I remember being a young man way back when. And for me, um long before I really even understood these things on a conceptual level, what it was that I was chasing, what it was that I was feeling was missing, uh, I knew that there was some part of me that wanted to feel stronger. And going to the gym and lifting weights was real, uh was a real easy solution. The world made it really clear and easy how I could do that. I go to the gym, I lift heavy weights, you could argue endlessly. Me and my best friend do all the time, just for fun, about the type of weight lifting to do to actually build muscle. But if I went to the gym and I lifted heavy weights and I ate protein and I cut calories and stuff, then my body would physically change. And I think that's one of those things where it's it is good and healthy to do. Like, really enjoyed going to the gym today. I really enjoy the feeling of two days ago I got a PR on the lat pole, and I really enjoyed that feeling. But for me today, it's completely separated from my identity as a man. But I do remember w how much that was tied to my sense of identity when I was younger. Um, and you know, this really comes into play long before we're adults as men, where we even before we uh care, quite frankly, about the opinions of girls. You know, that magical age of boyhood from up to maybe 10 or 11 or 12, depending on when that comes into play for you, where um we only care about the opinions of other men. And playground dominance was dependent upon physical strength and will. Um, so I think that's another thing that that even more so than physical strength, what a lot of people defined a strong man as is one that has a strength of will. And it's not always the biggest, strongest person.

SPEAKER_02

And dominance.

SPEAKER_01

And dominance.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And, you know, again, we can talk all we want and we should about how this looks like us as an adult, but it's always important to remember, as you often remind me, how much of our personality and is set and how much of our uh nervous system is defined um up to the age of seven. And it is all about dominance. It's all about who uh, you know, the schoolyard bully or the one who's in charge, one everybody looks to, you know, two boys size each other up, and who bows their head first, who walks away first. Um these are the ways that we defined our identity long before we even really knew what those words meant. And so we see this play out in adult men who define their sense of strength by who they have power over. And I believe that is in some ways the number one cause of um

Playground dominance: how boys define strength before they understand it

SPEAKER_01

violence towards women, subjugation of women, and even just conflict between men and women, is that um men still carry out those instincts in their relationships with women. And, you know, I've been watching the show called The Boys. Um I don't recommend the squeamish watch it. It's quite graphic and violent and really um certainly not a show to watch uh if you're looking for an uplift in mood, but there's also some really amazing themes that play out in it that I think are important. It one of the recurring themes in the show is that there are these superheroes who are actually like really awful, the bad guys, and they're they're all a kind of a bunch of bullies. Like everybody in the show in power is a bully and bullies everybody around them with their literal physical power. And there's all these characters in the show who are right under or close to those superheroes who basically just get like completely subjugated and controlled, and they're willbroken, demeaned. And they then go on, they're also the ones that turn around and take that out on anybody that they see has less power than them. And that is something that shows up very consistently, uh, especially among men in human hierarchy, right? Is somebody else has power over me, the bullied finds somebody to bully. Yeah. And um, so I think that's an area where a lot of people would define strength of will. Uh I care a lot about strength of character. And that is how much a man adheres to his own beliefs when it's inconvenient or when it's scary, when it's difficult. And I do think that a lot of people believe that as well. And quite frankly, I would say that if we're coming coming back to the core topic of our show, which is the relationship, the romantic relationships, especially between men and women, um, that is uh something that whether or not they're conscious of it, and I and I say that only because this is not something you talked about as much, that is really very uh attractive to women. Um, the strength of character of a man that holds his own beliefs, that um stays true to what he believes when it's unpopular with society, um, when it's inconvenient, and especially when it may risk upsetting his partner.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we've talked about that a lot. And I'm curious how like strength of character sounds so admirable. And I'm curious how men in this culture develop strength of character.

SPEAKER_01

Well, through adversity and guidance, uh, I think both of those things have to be present. Uh adversity alone does not build character.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Some, you know, in fact, that's one thing that I believe is the most um underappreciated privilege that people have. You know, one thing I've heard people say, especially when they are either uh people that are maybe in a position of privilege in other ways, and they are saying, well, they'll say something like, Well, I was taught better. And they'll say that with a mark of pride, which I understand, but they'll also say it as if like they're saying, I was taught better, therefore I am better than this person who was not taught better. As if we choose who our mentors are.

Strength of will vs. strength of character, and why it matters in relationships

SPEAKER_01

Or choose our parents or our mentors are when we're younger. You know, and I think any man that displays anything resembling some kind of that uh they or other people or society would deem as strong character uh has some buddy in their life, especially a man. Um, because we can learn a lot from each other. But I believe that uh this is one of my unwoke opinions, I guess. I believe that uh men can really only learn how to be men from other men.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So uh, you know, when they will they could tell you about some mentor that in their life. For those that are really lucky, it's their father, the first male that ever is in their life. Um, or maybe they had an older brother who was a good figure in their life. But for a lot of us, that's not the case. And we become who we are because somewhere along the way, we met a man, an older man, um, a uh mentor figure that taught us something different, that taught us how to treat and look at the adversity of life differently and to grow from it and to rather than being because the um the archetype of the victim, which is very ingrained, right, in in people. Um, I'm all about archetypes lately. The archetype of the victim is is somewhat is a survival archetype that will come naturally without something, um, some other guidance, right? And then also why why walking through adversity, right? And so we we see that some people may have great mentors, maybe have great parents, may have great home lives, but they maybe have never really faced adversity, especially those that are younger. Um, and they may not have a sort of quote unquote lack of character in the sense that they show up and emulate people, um, men that are not what's the word I'm looking for? They they they just seem naive, for lack of a better term, right? And there's an innocence to it. Uh it's true that those that we truly look up to. If we if we want to if we want to really close our mind for a minute and say, how do I define strength of character, or think about, and especially if we're just talking about men for a second, um, because there's plenty of women that have strength of character that are that we think of as heroes, but it's those that we look up to, those figures from history uh or contemporary people that we see as leaders. And every one of them has those two things in common. They had someone in their life, maybe many someones, who taught them how better, and they face adversity. Um, now I don't want to take away from the inherent nature of the free will in the soul, because there are people who grew up with all the same uh conditions and didn't turn out so well, strength of character. But those two things are very much like those two things are lacking, it's very rare to find someone that has, you know, and I think this is something that we really lose sight of in America, especially where we have such a hyper-individualistic, like we just America just is in love with the bootstrap fantasy, you know, came from nothing, had nothing, and became something great, therefore, what's your excuse? But they all had guidance somewhere along the way. And um, you know, as we're talking about it, I mean, it really why I've feel so drawn to this work. Because I have experienced in my life someone who was definitely not my father. Um, the short time he was in my life, he was not present. Um, he did teach me some things. Some I I know one thing, I'm uh one of the few lessons. My father, yeah, one of the few lessons I remember him saying is like, never start fights, but always finish them. But I didn't have a lot of context to

How adversity and mentorship together are the only things that build real character

SPEAKER_01

know what that meant. Um he also, to his credit, was very much obsessed with history. And when I I remember being six years old and I wanted a Nintendo, and the deal was I had to watch like a five VHS series on World War II for him to buy me a Nintendo. And I still love history, and I feel like my understanding and knowledge and love of history is a big part of who I am today. So even in that, the I can go back and I can, as I'm processing this right in real time, I can see how much that little bit of guidance changed who I am versus somebody else. Um I'm I might sometimes find myself in judgment of other people who who act in a certain way that to me seems like they're ignorant of history without stopping and asking, like, did somebody ever teach them that? And I had I had men come along in my life that um showed up as mentors. Now, none of that happened until I was an adult. My entire teenage years were spent around tweakers and other types of unsavory characters, and none of them really showed up in a way that that showed up as a mentor. But the people that influenced my life the most were men that I talked to or men that showed up in my life, right? My sponsor is one I bring up all the time. Um, my best friend uh is another example of that. And they that my sponsor is a great example because he wasn't really like a somebody I talked to all the time, right? I think in any given time he had 10 different people he was meeting with every week and probably 40 he was talking to on a regular basis. But he was but he showed up in my life in such a way, demonstrated a strength of character, and then demonstrated it, embodied it first, right? Like that's key. And then took the time to teach me lessons that help me change the way I um walked through the adversity of my life, that is a big part of the reason I am who I am today. And so, and that's I think something I really learn in recovery is gratitude and humility, right? I can look at the things about me that I like and I can say, yes, I chose like there is choice in everything, but also I would not be who I am without those people. And so I recognize the power for one man who chooses to step into the role of leadership and to um be involved in other men's lives, whether that be directly through one-on-one work or whether that be through being on a podcast, so that as many as people as possible can hear their voice. Um, because there are other, you know, one of my greatest mentors in my life, Captain Jean-Luc Picard. And, you know, I never met him. And it's probably like my number one on my bucket list is to meet Patrick Stewart before he dies. But um, you know, I know how much, a little, a seemingly little bit of an impact that can have.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. In a world where it feels like apprenticeship and mentorship has kind of disappeared in a way. And so now people are going online, right? Like that's where a lot of young men are finding their mentors. There's a lot of young men who's parents, their fathers are maybe working like 60 hours a week trying to, you know, win, win the game that's unwinnable right now. And um, so they're not as available. And if you're not, you know, we live in Utah, so there's like Boy Scouts and Mormonism and all of that. But for the whole world at large, there's not a lot of that, maybe as much as there used to be. And so people are going online and they're going and finding mentors. And a lot of men are finding themselves really drawn to maybe unhealthy mentors like Andrew Tate. And I'm curious, what is the need that that he is fulfilling that these young men are like drawn? Like what need is lacking and what need is he fulfilling in that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, there's a lot to unpack there. So bear with me for a minute because I do, but that is a really great point and a really great question. Because and I often think about when, where along the way, what is the greatest factor for that? But this is it, this is probably one thing that left, right, up, down, top, center, black, white would not disagree with, right? Is that our generation, the millennial generation, and especially the next generation has had a real lack of direct mentorship and leadership in their lives. And, you know, I think this guy right here plays a role.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And maybe that's, you know, some of my own guilt, remorse, and things that I wish I had done differently as a father, you know, when those came along. But whatever the reason is, is we have a generation or two now that has grown up lacking that and lacking that especially from their fathers. And um again, what is what is one thing that um I said uh man can only learn from other man, and that is how to be a man. And so among all the other things, uh the the other gaps that that has left in uh a lot of men in our society today, and uh, you know, I'm I don't want to be United States centric, but that is where I'm the most familiar, so I'll speak mostly to that. Um, is they don't feel like men. And you know, it's it's funny actually. I was thinking about this uh as you were kind of telling me the the topic you want to interview today, and I was remembering the very first time in my life I was ever on a podcast. This was back when I still used a pseudonym, Charles Dubois, my sexy alter ego. And uh I was uh Cam, Cam Fraser interview uh interviewed me soon after I graduated from his course. And the whole topic of that was the um the what led me into his work to begin with, and the lack of um what was missing in specifically like progressive or online leftist spaces. And that's where I had spent a lot of time leading up to that, my younger 30s. Um I'm old enough now that a lot of that was on Facebook, which is kind of the social media for the dinosaurs. But um and in those spaces, the spaces, the the the spaces are kind of a natural result of sort of the reaction to the awakening and realization that for the vast majority of human history uh that we have recorded anyway, um men have treated women like shit, both individually but especially as a uh collective, right? And created uh the system of patriarchy, which we won't go into today because that'll take a whole other episode.

SPEAKER_04

But take like 10 episodes.

SPEAKER_01

Um but so I think as someone like myself who cares about equality and who quite frankly never really felt a sense of alignment with what I was taught was masculinity. So I was somewhat lost, and I found that you know that's those were spaces I ended up in. And what dominates or pervades those spaces um is um uh guilt and shame. And I remember feeling that, feeling like guilty for being a man. And I know there's a lot of people, especially women

Why the mentorship gap is a generational crisis, and where men are going to fill it

SPEAKER_01

that are gonna. Have like a triggering reaction to that. And I understand it. But that is exactly what is sort of taught there. Like I would go into these places and I would see men are trash. Men are trash was like the number one thing to say to anything that happened. And, you know, and this is still happening today. In fact, this happened to us in the Costco yesterday. We were walking through Costco. Remember? And you told me about a video you saw where some man had gone around and taken videos of men who men in the wild. Men in the wild who were not showing up in a way that they found admirable. And there were a number of examples.

SPEAKER_02

No strength of character.

SPEAKER_01

There was a number of examples with the one that I remember you saying was a man with a man walking by. He would take all these videos of men walking by women where the woman was pushing a heavy shopping cart and he was just a whole bunch of heavy luggage. Or a whole bunch of heavy luggage.

SPEAKER_02

And the guy's just like carrying the umbrella and this like tiny woman's carrying like all this heavy baggage.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. And that is sort of the double-edged sword of social progress and change, right? Like we become aware and we need to face that this is

The unmet need Andrew Tate exploits, and what it reveals about modern masculinity

SPEAKER_01

a reality. Like this is this is a reality. We see this. Like there are a lot of men who do not treat the women in their life well, who do not show up well. There is a system that I think is far more important to focus on if we want to actually create change in individual behavior. But it also we highlight that and we and that gets clicks. Yep. And I said, and I was like, I'm kind of interested to see. At the time you said that to me, I was pushing a shopping cart. In fact, the reason you brought that up to me, and it was a and we were at Costco and we were getting protein shakes, so it was a heavy shopping cart. But the reason you brought that up to me was to highlight, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, that you know, how much you appreciated that I was a man that was better than that. And I remember saying, well, let's let's get curious. And we kind of we were walking around and I was like, Well, there's a man pushing a shopping cart, and there's a man pushing a shopping cart, and there's a man pushing a shopping cart.

SPEAKER_02

We saw a lot more men than we did.

SPEAKER_01

And then we did see one. And then there was we were walking out, there was there was an example. And um, you know, I don't know their story. Um, but the the point is that we start to highlight, we started to highlight the ways in which men are not showing up and men are failing in the pain and suffering of women.

SPEAKER_02

Which you have called me on a lot in a beautiful not called me on, but like brought awareness to my own posting and sharing and like who benefit like I remember you asking me who benefits from this? Is this bringing us closer together? And that's like our show on why we're having this topic is like we want to help the world believe in love again and love between men and women. You know, the world is male and female. It's like co-creation happens this way.

SPEAKER_01

We uh and we don't want to be exclusionary either. It's just that our experience is to cisgendered heterosexuals. Yeah. But um, but yeah, like I know it sounds a little weird to say, but if we accept the fact, if we if we acknowledge the fact that most people are cisgendered and heterosexual, that means most people identify with the gender that they were born with and are attracted to the opposite sex and want to form unions. And still, I don't know if this is still true, but I think most people still want monogamy, right? Like we're saying that most of the people in the world are either a man looking to form a relationship with a woman or a woman want to form a relationship with a man. So, in order for the world to believe in love again, the world has to believe in men again. Otherwise, you can't really believe that love is possible between a man and woman if your belief is that men are bad. And so this is, but but you have to understand, like I came by these lessons by years of struggle in it, right? So I would, so so what happens is is it the social media just like you wouldn't, if we just took a if we just went around, and maybe we would, maybe we should try that. If we just went around and took videos of normal, everyday shit, nobody clicks on it. The uh, the almighty algorithm doesn't like it. So um we create a reality in our minds that exaggerates or high not I don't want to say exaggerate, because we don't need to exaggerate the evils that men perpetuate, especially on women. We don't need to exaggerate them. But we create, but we create our uh perception in our mind that that's all we focus on. And so suddenly, instead of saying there are a lot of men that do really horrible things and should be held accountable, we start to hear all men are bad. And then we and we could go back and forth between the yes, all women, not all men, I did the thing. The point is like these things all become these distractions that pit us against each other.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And we, you know, we can talk about the effect of that reality that we've created on women, and that is a sense of fear and despair and um uh uh giving up.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Giving up on love. I mean, I think a good amount of people that end up being your client come from that space, right? They're like, I want to believe in love again. I've given up, I've given up on men. Yeah, I've given up on dating, I've had so many bad experiences, and all I see that all uh all these other people having these bad experiences. And so

Men in the wild: the Costco moment that started a bigger conversation

SPEAKER_01

it's almost like, and you know, 20 years ago, it was very different. 20 years ago, media was somewhat controlled by the norm, and it was very uh counterculture to talk about like, hey, you know, maybe this isn't the way it should be. Like to the traditional roles of men and women were starting to slip, but they were still in control. But today it's almost more revolutionary to highlight examples of people being good.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And but what that uh to get finally to the answer to your question, I hope what that creates in men, because I know from what it created in me from spending those years in there. And I actually think I'd like to link that episode here because I think really this was right as I was kind of coming out of that and and learning and shifting my perspective, so it was really very fresh on my mind, is a sense that there is something wrong with manliness. There is something wrong with masculinity. It wasn't just that I rejected masculinity as it was presented to me. It wasn't just that I rejected toxic masculinity as it was referred to, or that I rejected the small, narrow box of what defined men that society presented to us. I rejected it as a concept. I rejected it wholesale, and I did not really understand what kind of a wound that created in me. Because that is um I believe today that there is something inherently um some inherent essence of being a man. Something I can feel, something that's tangible, something that's real, something that I share with other men. By the way, that is why I'm such a supporter of transgender people, because I imagine like if somebody tried to take that sense from me, um, I would never want to take that away from somebody else.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But but that's not really the topic of today. So um so men end up in this place where there's uh a fracture inside them. And and it really comes to there is there was really like two voices. I don't know how much this is true today. I think it's starting to shift. I can point to a number of different examples of some really great leaders out there as men

Why social media creates a distorted reality about how bad men actually are

SPEAKER_01

who are trying to present something different, but we didn't really have that when it was somewhat binary, you know, to to sum it up without getting too political, like the right presented that men look a certain way. And I that way often seemed to be uh one of dominance, one of control. And the left said nothing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It just said what not to be. We we spent we, in our attempt to change culture, my generation, the millennial generation especially, um, the sort of the first generation that came of age in social media, the first generation where the entire everybody has a fucking platform and a voice, right? Like that's what's so kind of unique about the millennial generation, right? We just told people what not to do. Don't talk to women at the gym, don't be creepy, don't um be threatening, don't uh have sex with some without their consent, which by the way is a really good thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But we didn't teach them what to do. We didn't teach them what to do. We didn't provide any mentorship or guidance on what to do. And so we created a vacuum. We created a vacuum. We created this space where there was a whole lot of men who are like, I don't feel like a man. I don't feel manly. I I and maybe they didn't even have those words for it, but they could feel something something was off, something was missing inside of them. And they and it made men very vulnerable to voices like Andrew Tate. And the reality is that I don't think that Andrew Tate is anywhere near close to be the most uh dangerous uh influencer out there because he is so easy as an example to point out too, right? Like he's he's almost a cliche. Like Andrew Tate is almost someone that is surprising to me as a real person and not a character in a TV show.

SPEAKER_02

But there I didn't even know who he was when we started dating. That's how neat naive I was.

SPEAKER_01

Yours, your gift is in your innocence, my love. Uh I did not even know what the manosphere was. My life, my my life would certainly have more happiness than if I didn't know what the manosphere is. But um, the world has it and and it needs men like me to and to be willing to face it.

SPEAKER_03

For sure.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but what what what inevitably creates this pipeline, right, is like uh there was some unmet need. I mean, we can get re we can talk about it like uh sales. What is sales or engineering?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But same thing. What's the unmet need? And there was an unmet need in men.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And we left the door open for people to come in and exploit it. Because to a man, these the Andrew Tates and so many others like him don't really believe a lot of what they say. I mean, this is true for pretty much any political commentator or any social commentator. Like most of them may have believed something at one point, but at some point they got swept up in their own, and it just becomes about I'll say whatever I need to say to get power. And they use these men's feelings of um isolation and persecution to exploit them to a lot of what I would consider to be very non-effective and quite frankly, sad ideals. And so that's where we come back to the original kind of conversation, right? Like, how do we we don't we don't uh we're never gonna solve that problem by yelling louder about what's wrong? We're never gonna solve that problem with shame. We've never solved the problem with shame in our life in the history of mankind, and I will die on that hill, and we never will, right? So, in order to actually solve the problem, we have to say, well, what's like what what's the other solution? And we have to provide men an alternative to also what that also honors and recognizes that men want to feel like men.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that brings me to um a conversation we've had multiple times in a relationship. Um, as you've helped me look at, as I would say, my own toxic masculinity, which I know you hate that. But, you know, my construct with Tantra is like I have my own masculine and my own feminine, and this is the container for all of this. And, you know, I've I've been very nuanced in my language of like my emotions are my feminine, and my containment is my masculine, and the masculine is the doing and the linear and the driving, and the feminine is um the emotions and the flow and the allow

The fracture inside men who rejected masculinity wholesale, including Chad

SPEAKER_02

and the trusting. And um I remember calling you after like a meeting with my mentor and being like, you know, I have my own, like my own masculinity. And, you know, I've grown so much in the last year of seeing the waters that I swim in called patriarchy and capitalism and all of like with my own wanting to have dominance and my own ego and wanting to have power over others unconsciously, but like that's the only way that I've seen women have power. So I was trying to do that, but it wasn't even in my conscious field. And we were talking, and you're like, I do not subscribe to that. And I would love for you to tell us why you don't subscribe to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that is boy, that's a topic where I've often feel like I am running against the entire, not just running against the crowd, but the whole world. Um and I'm trying to I'm trying to grow in my own understanding of how to present that in a way that that makes sense without having without having it be a long conversation. But I think what's a great example is another time that we talked about um we talked about, right? Where we were having dinner with some friends, uh, included one of our uh one of our friends and his son, his adult son, and um his and their his wife and their daughter too. So there was, I think, and my son was there too. So there was there was two adult men, or two very adult men, 40, 50-year-old men, and two younger men, one of them, I think 18, one of them 16. Not a whole lot of difference from my perspective, although I know there is one. And we had started to get into a conversation about some kind of emotions, some kind of feelings, some kind of something we were struggling with or feelings we were having, or just a normal conversation about being a human being. And you had turned to the daughter and said, uh, I think she had said, What are they talking about?

SPEAKER_02

And you said Well, she said, What's happening?

SPEAKER_01

She said, What's happening?

SPEAKER_02

Because it was just unusual for her to hear her dad talk about feelings.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And she did which was confused.

SPEAKER_01

And he was. Yeah, and he was. And then you said, There's just men being in their feminine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that conversation immediately ended. It did. And um I regret it. Well, and I did it's not to bring regret, it's just it's just it's hard for me to teach this without examples. Yeah, no, it's great. And why did that end? Because men want to feel like men.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so much of what is programmed into men is that we define what it means to be a man by not being a woman.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So when we take And that's like the worst thing that you could call a man is to be like a woman in the state in age.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you know, going back to the playground, right? Like you want to get a fight, you call him a girl or some kind of homophobic slur.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and really that is a lot of where uh a lot of homophobia comes from, at least for men, is um men that act like women. But um but hit that and that kind of is where the problem is, right? This doesn't mean that I do not believe in what you are saying.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There are forces inside of us, and there is a difference in the energy that you and I feel as a man and a woman, and there is probably some version of your force inside me and mine inside you, and there are these competing forces, and there are these juxtapositions, and there may be some natural inclination to ascribe some of them more. Like women may be more naturally capable of connecting with their emotions, and men may be more naturally capable of connecting with rigid logic. Um, I say that as maybe because I don't necessarily know that's true. We'd have to bring up a society of people where we raise them the opposite to determine, to

Why "masculine and feminine energy" language backfires with men who want to feel like men

SPEAKER_01

actually determine what's nature and what's nurture. But when we ascribe certain characteristics as masculine and feminine, we create a uh very deep emotional um antipathy in people from expressing them. Uh so as a man, especially as a man who is trying to grow, change, talk more about his emotions, but also is very deeply aware of the feeling of masculinity, the feeling of being a man that he wants to feel and he wants to embody and he wants to express. The you you you're you we can talk about it afterward, right? We and and we always do. It's always like, well, these are just terms, or men have masculine femininity, but it doesn't matter. We're like fighting very deep programming.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When we do that, and we say, okay, so now my expression of my emotions is feminine. So my expression of emotions is taking me away from something that I deeply on some very visceral level want to be, and that's manly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And that's taken me a whole year to get in. I really fought it. And I think the reason I fought it is because for me, me connecting to my masculine was actually very empowering for me. But that's because we live in a world of patriarchy and power, and men are better than. And so for me to heal my own masculine and connect to that, because before I was just so in my feminine and I was like chaos and not getting anything done. And then when I connected to my masculine, I was like, oh, I'm getting shit done. I'm succeeding. I'm, you know, moving forward in this winning at this game or whatever. And so it just I it was like what it was about. It was the story I was making about me, is like that was empowering for me to connect to my masculinity. And what I really understood in our multiple conversations to have this conversation is that is not the same experience for men. Like men, it's not empowering for them to connect to their feminine. And that made a lot of sense once it clicked. Like once I let down my anger and my resistance and um like my belief of what I made it about me, and then stepped into your experience and like saw it from that. It like, I was like, whoa, that just opened up so much for me.

SPEAKER_01

No, and it's it you make a really great point because there is there is definitely what I do hear a lot from women is I'm tired of being in my masculine, I want to be in my feminine, um, which you know is a whole other conversation. But there is never an identity crisis with it. No, there is never this feeling like I don't feel like a woman. It's more like

The dinner table story: four men talking about feelings, one phrase, and sudden silence

SPEAKER_01

I want like women, at least the way that you're programmed and the way that we've this whole crazy society set up, like there's there's uh there's like a desire to feel a certain way.

SPEAKER_02

Powerful.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and also like held and soft and delicate.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. There's a desire to feel that. There's a desire to feel surrender. There's a and and a lot of that is related to our sort of natural sexual expression. Um, but there isn't this like, oh my God, I'm acting manly. Now I think there was for a period of time where that was considered, and there is still a lot of cult, there's still a lot of parts of our modern culture where women are you you see women who act powerful, who act manly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Which to me, I'm thinking you guys would be as you girls would be as easily as offended by because you know, you can be like, who the hell says that's only like being powerful and having leadership is manly, but you know, who is um maybe stuck in uh structure and rigidity of or uh and kind of living in her head.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um and they're like, I'm craving to feel something different and more embodied, but there is not this sort of sense that this is going to take from your identity as a woman among other women.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Now there are a lot of men who will say that makes them less attracted to women, but I I I don't find that to be true. You know, I find I think women who are standing in their power and their sovereignty are very attractive. I think that kind of comes back to maybe somewhat um less mature, trying to think of a way to say that without sounding judgmental, but whatever. It's a little judgmental. We're all a little judgmental, less mature male perspectives of dominance, right? I want a woman who is pliable so that I can be dominant because that's what I think means to be a man. Um, you know, so there's a lot of men who will attack women that way and say, you know, you would be sexier. Maybe you get a man if you stop being so bossy or something like that. But it's so much deeper for men because we want to feel like women, like, I want to feel feminine. And men are like, I want to feel masculine.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And we are then presented with. Limited ways to do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, here's this box, and then here's this box, and then as long as you're both in your boxes.

SPEAKER_01

And the problem is that it works at least for time. You know, I mean, listen, I used to work.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if it's going to continue to work.

SPEAKER_01

It works in the sense that dominating a woman from a dominating woman is great when you understand that uh in a dom sub relationship, who has the real power? And that's about surrender, and that's about uh all that stuff. But that idea of dominating another person forcefully, to me, it like doesn't feel good. Like there's nothing attractive about that to me. I it's too easy for me to see how much that comes from, you know, like I was saying, like I don't feel powerful. I feel like someone else took my power. I'm gonna take power from someone else.

Why women connecting to their masculine is empowering, while men connecting to their feminine feels threatening

SPEAKER_01

Like that, that doesn't really work very well. And we can see that, we can see that in some of the most powerful men in the world right now. Yeah, how insecure they are. Like some of the some of the most insecure people I've ever met. I didn't meet in person. I see them at the podium.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um, but um it's it's uh it works if if you take a bunch of men who don't feel like men, who however they express that, they just there's it again, there's some feeling missing inside. And you take them to some of these more like traditional, like we can go out in the woods and we can chop wood and we can uh throw rocks at each other, and we can drive around in the back of pickup trucks with no seatbelt and do risky and stupid shit because there is a level of reckless boyishness, boyish recklessness. They will feel something. I it's fun. Like it's listen, I just got back from a men's retreat a couple weeks ago, and I'm telling you, we there was a lot of silly boyishness there, a lot of teasing, a lot of flatulence. Um and you know, you go out and you uh learn how to um do things that are traditionally, and it feels good. But the problem is then it becomes like we've our identity as a masculine men becomes very dependent upon these things.

What women actually crave vs. what men fear losing when they drop the performance

SPEAKER_01

So then it's like, okay, well, I now have learned how to feel this feeling that's I've always wanted to feel in my life, and now I learn how to feel it. Um, but this is the only way I can feel it, right? And what I what I really try to teach and embody is that we have like masculinity is real, the energy of it. The I don't know if it's from where it's from, I'm not really as sure about the woo origins of it, but it's a real thing, it's a real thing inside of me that I can share with other men that they can describe and I can describe, and we know what we're talking about, right? It is a shared experience amongst men, and we can we can achieve that without needing to do it, letting somebody else define that for us. Um, and then there's also this other paradox of where I, you know, one of the things that at its core can define this energy is sexual polarity. Right. And sometimes I think that's the reason we do it, and sometimes I think it's the reason we think we do it. Um, I think sometimes I'm not sure if men try to engage in these things because their goal is to get women to want to have sex with them and be with them, or if uh they do those, they they do that because they or they go to have, they um try to have sex with a lot of women, get a lot of women to sleep with them so they can achieve status amongst other men, or it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. Um, but in that role, we can be really clear that it exists, and that is a huge unmet need. So many couples, so many people, so many single people are like I do not feel like there's passion. I do not feel like there's drive. Um, so those are another group of men that are very susceptible to that, right? Like I, there's no passion, there's no sexual fire drive in our relationship. And I can, how do we create that? We create that through this polarity. But as I've always kind of brought up to you when we've been having these uh arguments, I won't sugarcoat it. We do argue. Uh-huh. Uh I can point to many examples where I have been expressing in a very in a way that is very uh not traditional masculine archetypes. And you have felt and expressed how much you felt that sexual drive, sexual attraction. And you've even said like you're so masculine. Like I've had people tell me that a lot, at least in the last five years of my life, as I've really connected with that energy. But I don't if anything, I'm even less like your traditional stereotype, right? So it can be while I may not be at the point yet where I can describe really well, it's very easy to sh, it's very easy to poke holes in the idea of it as a

Sexual polarity: the real energy underneath attraction, and why it gets weaponized

SPEAKER_01

uh dogma, as like this is the way it always is. This is how you feel masculine, this is how you feel feminine, right? By just showing a lot of different counterexamples to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I'm curious in this conversation, because something that comes up for both of us is I work with a lot of women who are divorced and in their 40s or um married and maybe, like you said, not having the polarity that they want. Um and it's kind of happened where it's like, well, A, I don't feel safe with men. There's no good men out there, is the one story. Then the other story is um, can Chad fix my husband? And we talk a lot about like men, you know, and there's a lot of conversations about men need to do their work, men need to do their work, men need to learn from other men. Why aren't men doing their work? Like that's a lot of the stuff online, which in my reality, which I'm blessed to have because you are part of a men's group and a lot of our community are men doing their work. So, like, that's not my reality. I know 50 men who are safe who would I could call to have me fix a fat tire who don't want anything from me other than to be of service, who are doing their work, being good husbands, good fathers who are still humans beings and trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01

Pardon me to interrupt you, but also men that you could call and talk about and cry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And talk about something difficult who would show up and hold you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and they have. I mean, one of my my best friend's husband has literally held me while I've cried when I was getting divorced and I was so scared and was like, it's gonna be okay. I'm like getting, I would could get teary about it just right now, thinking about the beautiful space that he held for me. Um, but you know, like one thing we kind of talk about is like a lot of men don't actually feel safe with other men.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_02

And and so how how do women who want their men to do these work and they want to have this good relationship, like, how can that conversation happen so that they can have better love and better polarity and and change their belief that there are safe men and that there can be more safe men when men don't even trust men?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm glad you asked that because uh it also brings me back to sort of what we talked about really at the beginning, right? Which was um how do we change the status quo that um we agree is not working, right? And what's funny is we're at this place right now where people don't agree about much, but overwhelmingly everybody agrees something isn't working. Yeah, they may just have a completely opposite idea of what it is and what to f how to fix it. Yeah, but when we talk about men, we we like I it it's it's a very controversial thing to say as a man. Um we have to care about men, we have to care about men's inner world. You know, one of the things I've put in my bio on Instagram, and I randomly think to update my bio on Instagram, uh is fierce advocate for the emotional lives of men because I care about men, and I care about men, and we have to care about men even when they're not showing up very well, and that's hard. That's hard, and it's especially hard to ask that of a woman. Yeah um because we could like people will come back and say, We've all we hear about is men, and I'm like but we know very little about men because we have been performing masculinity for the entirety of our existence in this patriarchal system as well. Um, we have to start caring about the inner lives of men because that is where the problem is, right? And I I kind of got into um a very difficult conversation with uh a really close friend of mine um on text, of course, because this is how it always is. Um and we were talking about misinformation, and uh, I won't go into the whole story, but she said something, she said we I want to decenter men here for a second of this conversation. And like I it like I I understand that, but also how can we fix a problem without if men are the problem, and I'm not saying they are, but the people that tell me that are, how do we fix the problem without understanding the problem? And maybe that's where my engineering brain comes into play, right? I look at it as how do we fix this problem? And so much of what people want to do is like so much of it is coming from this place of blame

The women who've given up on men, and the women who want Chad to fix their husbands

SPEAKER_01

and anger, justified anger. Yeah, plenty of blame and yet not helpful. Yeah, you know, and it and think about it like uh like what would you tell a couple that were both feeling unhurt, right? We we had an argument the other day, and there was uh I had felt unheard and I felt hurt, and you had felt unheard, and you had felt hurt, and I could not even see my part until we had had this argument, we both expressed how we felt, and and and I remember at the time being like, but it was then afterward, I was like, oh yeah, she's right and I'm right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Both like the duality that both of us, both of our perspectives, both of our experiences, both of our hurts were were valid.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But when we're feeling unheard and hurt, we're like, no, I don't want to, I'm I don't want to hear about you right now. I want to talk about me. And this is what we're doing, but on like a global scale, right? So we're at we're in this sort of feminine rage uprising, which is great. It's long overdue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Women are allowed to fill their anger.

SPEAKER_01

Are allowed to fill their anger and they have suppressed their anger for centuries. Kind of, we need that. We need that fire to sort of tear down the system.

SPEAKER_02

Anger leads you to courage.

SPEAKER_01

But tearing something down doesn't we don't want to just tear something down if we're not thinking about how we build it back up, right? And so so I understand why it's so hard to say that, but try to remember that every man, every man that has done something foul, and that you feel judgment about, and I feel judgment about it too. Even the president of the United States was once a sweet, innocent little boy. And some are probably beyond uh hope. But I also was somebody that was beyond hope and salvation and society would have thrown away. But one person, but if not for someone coming into my life to teach

Why caring about men's inner world is controversial, and why it matters anyway

SPEAKER_01

me something different. And in order to do that, like in order for me to help men, I have to empathize with them. I have to empathize with the men who go on uh the alt-right pipeline who, who, who follow Andrew Tate. Because if I can't, then I cannot help them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I cannot help them change. And helping them change or helping those that are, you know, helping those earlier in the pipeline, right? Like the young men that have become more into my life lately, as my son becomes a teenager, to be able to have to be able to care about them. And on an individual scale, in a relationship, uh the dynamic that we often see is that a woman's like, I want you to perform something differently. She doesn't say that, but she sees all these examples online because everybody on everybody on Instagram's life is great.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Oh my God, look how sexy and happy and manly he is, and how soft and feminine and swoony and orgasmy she is. And I want that, and I need you to do that. Her need for that is valid. She wants to experience something different than she's experiencing it. But she's asking him to perform something differently. And so, you know, when I've when I have had these conversations, and I will, I must admit, like they're very, rarely effective. If they were, I would have a huge wait list. If women could sign their boyfriends up and their husbands up for coaching with me, I would not have any time to do anything else. But they're that they're not, but the the start of it is is to say, like, hey, I I I have a uh friend who just joined my men's group, uh, who joined a men's group I was in, not the one that I put on, but a different one that I was in. And it just completed, and he had a transformational experience from it. And he was like, I really want my wife to do this, I really want my wife to do this, I really want my wife to do this. And I was like, Okay, then it, but they were in a spot, which we all get to in a relationship where we get kind of stuck in our sort of fight. He's like, I want her to do this because she does this and she does that, and I want her to stop doing this, and I want her to take it. And I was like, okay, that's not gonna get you very far. But you say to her, Listen, I want you to experience what I've experienced from this. I want you to experience. So if you're a woman saying, I want you to experience the freedom that you're not experiencing. I want you to experience what

The global argument: how the feminine rage uprising and masculine identity crisis are the same wound from two sides

SPEAKER_01

it feels like to be held and supported by a man who is not here to tell you how to be a man, but to help you find that for yourself.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because men, we we have that energy within us. We have the wisdom within us to connect to that. The guidance is more about helping us find it, helping us identify it, right? Um, those I that is one way to be that that is more effective, right? And to and to set an example. And I think a lot of this has happened because we are in this spot where women sort of went first in this huge awakening. And a lot of men are like, oh my God, my woman's consciously expanding. She did ayahuasca, and now she's a seventh-level Shiva Shakti goddess or something. And what do I do? Um, but the but the other part of the problem is that even if that works, even if men are like, okay, my wife wants me to join a men's group, my wife wants me to do coaching, my wife wants me to um go

Why shame and blame never fix anything, and what actually does

SPEAKER_01

to this tantric retreat. Um, they're still doing it for someone else. They're still not, they're not doing it for themselves. Yeah. And we have also seen this example of a man who is like, okay, I'm gonna step up, I'm gonna do everything, I'm gonna shift, I'm gonna follow, I'm gonna shift, I'm gonna learn all this stuff. And the more that he does to try to please her, I did write a sub stack about this, and like 20 people have already read it. So the more he does to try to please her, the less happy with him she becomes. Because women don't really want men to do these things for them, even if they think that they do, and even if in the moment they might get some temporary satisfaction. And by the way, this is very much not a man-woman thing because uh the same thing for me, right? I I don't want you to change for me. Right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, what we are what really breeds attraction in a long-term basis, right? Because so much of this bullshit out there is about how to get women and maybe how to keep them for two or three months, right? We have we we're not in this crisis. Well, maybe I guess the younger generation is, but people are like churning through relationships. People are churning through lovers. The question is, how do I actually sustain something in the long term? And when that what starts to fray at those relationships is sovereignty. The woman wants her man to be sovereign, wants her to tell her no, wants her to do something that aligns with himself, wants him to find his own sense of power. And so everything he does to try to make the relationship better from that perspective, it's like this catch 22. It doesn't really work. People pleasing is not people pleasing, is not uh the sole uh expression of the feminine. I'll tell you that right now.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like men are we're people pleasing motherfuckers. Um, and especially when especially a lot of good men, good men who want to be good lovers and want to be good husbands, they will get into that pattern.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Ah, I love that. I feel like we definitely probably need a part two for this. There's like so much more we could dive into. Um, but I do want to ask you one more question before we end. Chad, what piece of advice would you leave women to help them better understand men first? And then second, what advice would you leave men who want to be understood?

SPEAKER_01

And hope and love.

SPEAKER_02

And hope and love.

SPEAKER_01

And they want hope and love.

SPEAKER_02

And they want hope and love.

SPEAKER_01

Um well, to women, I would say um hopefully you just watched this whole episode and and got a little perspective and just realize like what you you want you like you you want your man to show up for himself. You will be infinitely more satisfied. So um he and he wants to. Like the the approach of like

The catch-22 of pleasing your partner: why trying harder makes attraction fade

SPEAKER_01

inside of men, um most men, I don't know if it's every man, but most men, probably your man, is a strong desire to be a better man, to embody something better. And um the the the the one thing that you can do to like and a lot of that is his journey, right? But the one thing is as a partner you can do to support him better in that is to um have some faith, believe in the possibility of it. Because men, we will resonate with that. Um we will like uh shame and guilt only causes us to resonate with shame and guilt. It just makes us more and more aware that we're how we're failing. But when someone says, I believe like I believe in you, like in and really does, believes in the possibilities of us showing up differently, we will resonate so much more with that. And um gently encourage him to build relationships with other men. I mean, this is this is a real crisis. You know, we talk about the loneliness crisis of men, and it's often talked about as and it's often sort of poo-pooed by a lot of people in the media, like, oh, men, men are can't get laid, and now they're calling it a crisis. And but no, it's real. And it isn't just with women. Like one of the reasons that I really believe in in men's groups is because there are so many men out there who do not have a single man in their life that they feel like they can open up to.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And let alone a community. And then the ones that do think about it as an exception, like, oh, I've got that one, you know, most men I can, but that one guy, and I have, I'm here to tell you that like I have a community of men, and that community of men helps me to be a better partner for you than anything else I could do. Um, and so encourage, encourage, encourage him to do that for his own sake, you know. Like I said, like because you want that for him, you love him and you care about him, and also it will be the most impactful thing that will cause him to show up as a better man in your relationship. Um and for men, uh, I would say um like don't stop giving your power away. Giving your um stop giving other men the power to. Define your identity as a man. No one else has the can can define for you what it means to be a man, what masculinity means. It's absolutely wonderful to seek guidance, to see the ways that other men have said this is expressed and things that uh resonate with you. But deep down inside, that's like a very individual thing. And nobody else has the power to tell you what isn't isn't masculine.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Thank you so much. And I really enjoyed our conversation. And just to our audience, remember be brave. Love is worth it.