Why Being “Too Different” Breaks Businesses Without Systems | Scott Hand | Part 3

This episode isn’t about creativity or branding.
It’s about what it actually takes to run a creative business inside real operational constraints.

In Part 3 of this conversation, Scott Hand - Chief Brand Officer at Urban Artifact and founder of Trilobite Design - breaks down how creativity, systems, and decision-making coexist inside a multi-partner manufacturing business.

This was not an artistic challenge. It was an operating challenge.

We cover:
Why unlimited creativity becomes a liability at scale

How defined constraints protect brand, operations, and partnerships

The operating rule Scott uses to prevent “good ideas” from breaking the system

Why speed of alignment matters more than hierarchy or titles

How Urban Artifact balances creative freedom without losing execution discipline

If you’re a founder, operator, or investor working inside partnerships, distribution limits, or regulated environments, this conversation will feel familiar.

This isn’t a highlight reel. It’s a practical breakdown of how real businesses actually get built - under pressure, not in hindsight.

Chief Milestones is a video podcast featuring honest conversations with founders, parents, and investors about building real businesses, staying healthy, and raising families.

New episodes release Tuesdays and Fridays.

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Transcript

Creativity vs operations: where the tension actually starts

Scott Hand 0:00

So I don't leave myself like, yes, you can be outside of the box, but ultimately I need to know where my limits are. Because if I do something too creative, or even if Brett does something too creative, all of a sudden the brand broke. We are fruit drinks that are alcoholic, not wine. It's not a seltzer, it's something different. We, in fact, we invented new beer style names. Our followers on Meta are 55% female. That's fantastic. That's a huge market that other breweries aren't able to gather.

Reshma Vadlamudi 0:37

Who did you imagine your customer would be and how did you reach them?

Scott Hand 0:41

The demographics don't matter because we've had success everywhere in places that other craft breweries don't. And that's the piece that the music was an interesting part of our bit building that business at the beginning because we had meet live music six nights a week. I have a stack of paintings that are actually hand-drawn, hand-painted, artwork that gets scanned, that gets put on the can labels. To me, like that is it the best I can do.

Reshma Vadlamudi 1:12

Are the other two partners equally creative? Or how do you guys know this is where my creativity has to stop? Or this is where the operations have to begin? Or how do you guys what are your conversations around that?

Why not everyone should be creative all the time

Scott Hand 1:26

No, the quick answer is no, we're not all equally creative, and I'm not saying that in a bad way.

Reshma Vadlamudi 1:32

Yes.

Scott Hand 1:32

Um, yeah. But I also think that, like, I'm again absolutely non-derogatory. Scotty is a by the numbers guy. He loves the checklist. Yes. And that's what he wants. He's more effective at his job when he doesn't have to be creative. And sometimes we have to pull that out of him, which is when he comes up with some of his best stuff. But ultimately, that's not the way he normally works.

Reshma Vadlamudi 1:57

Yes.

Scott Hand 1:58

Brett running the brewery is very creative from his natural innate abilities.

Reshma Vadlamudi 2:04

Yes.

Creativity inside constraints (and why fences matter)

Scott Hand 2:04

And he's forced into a role where he has to kind of tamp that down. He's in charge of a bunch of people and has to make sure that they're doing their jobs. So he has come into a really good personal balance of being able to, when he needs to pull it out, when he needs to encourage other people from that. I give, like from my architecture background, I have the the weirdest and best way to do it. I kind of have to be creative. In fact, that's the entire job. Yes. But I also require all of my constraints up front. So it's it's a creativity after I've built my fences. So I don't leave myself like, yes, you can be outside of the box, but ultimately I need to know where where my limits are. Because if I do something too creative, or even if Brett does something too creative, all of a sudden the brand broke.

Reshma Vadlamudi 2:53

Yes.

Scott Hand 2:54

In a weird way. Like we've we make something, we talked about it this morning. We have an idea for a new thing and it doesn't fit into anything that we're doing. Now all of a sudden it's kind of a problem. How does Scotty sell it? How do we send it out to distro when we don't even know where it goes on the shelf? Does it need a new name? Does it need, you know, all of a sudden all of a sudden the creativity can be a hindrance?

Reshma Vadlamudi 3:15

Yes.

How constraints unlock viable innovation

Scott Hand 3:15

But if you know all those constraints, and that was what we talked through, is oh, actually, there's potentially a market value add if we do this. Hey, if we sell it in as this, does it all of a sudden give us a jump start on the next product category that might not exist yet? Um, but we need to build that and then send it out. We all know where that creativity is. Yes, like my daily creativity has a bounds. I can put pretty much anything I want on the label. I can draw whatever. I'm not gonna go do something I shouldn't. Yes. But I also I have free reign on that. So it's that's that's the piece that I get to do. And you know, the other two get their own levels that they're allowed to do that. But when it's the thing that affects everybody, then we collaborate and kind of push it forward that way.

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:01

Yeah.

Scott Hand 4:01

The change from a business perspective sometimes can take an organization a long time.

Why fast alignment beats slow consensus

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:06

Yes.

Scott Hand 4:07

We have the ability to pivot the moment the three of us say that we're going to do it. Um, and that saved us or positioned us in a much better way several times over our tenure so far.

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:18

Yeah. So when you first open Urban Artifact, what did you hope it would become?

Scott Hand 4:26

I hoped that it would be fun. Um, I again I I was hoping for a music venue with beer in it. There, these are my my passions. Um wildly successful, so I'm I can't complain one bit. We we nailed it.

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:40

Yeah. Okay.

What Scott originally hoped the business would become

Scott Hand 4:41

So I I like to brag that I have one of the best jobs in the industry. And but it I it's not a job you get to go apply for.

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:49

Yeah.

Scott Hand 4:50

I have to be responsible for tons of things I don't want in order to have this one job of doing the very best and most fun thing I could possibly think of. Exactly.

Reshma Vadlamudi 4:59

Yeah. How has your original vision evolved over the years in terms of beer, space, culture, and community?

Scott Hand 5:09

The we're in a weird spot. Urban Artifact is in a weird spot where we are a craft brewery. It's a brewery by definition. It's craft by definition. We're restricted by distribution, by retailers, by all of the market pieces that are in place for what and where and how the people who don't come to our tap room experience us. The vast majority of people who know the brand have not yet been to our Northside tap room. They know us because we're on a store shelf or a convenience store shelf or it's on tap somewhere. But we are not craft beer by almost everybody else's definition. We're not normal beer. In fact, the number one thing people say when they finally do make it to our Norisight Tap in room is hey, do you guys have any normal beer? We are fruit drinks that are alcoholic. It's not wine, it's not a seltzer, it's something different. We, in fact, we invented new beer style names to define what they are. So a huge part of what we've been doing for 10 years is educating people on why what we did was uh honestly the best way to brew with fruit. Lots of people have been doing it. You know, there's even historic brewery styles that use fruit, but they don't make fruit beer the way that we do. So that differentiation has been the thing that we've built our community around. And it's almost in opposition to the market. Yeah, we have to live on the shelf next to what other people think might be our competitors, but we're not competing with them. Rheingeist is not our top competitor. They make fantastic IPAs, and their branding and marketing and merchandising is brilliant. But the people who are drinking that weren't going to also drink us. Or they might, but it's not there, it's not a choice that they're making.

Reshma Vadlamudi 7:14

Yes.

Educating the market when you don’t fit the category

Scott Hand 7:14

We're doing something different. In fact, the number one thing that I actually try to do is convince people who are regular wine drinkers or regular cocktail drinkers that urban artifact is their alternative when they're at a bar or they need something in a can, or it's just generally lower price than both of cocktails or wine. So it's expanding the community and pulling more people in. I actually think that that's been another thing that we've been really good at. Um, if you look at regular craft beer demographics on social media and just online in general, craft beer is very white male centric. Um, our followers on Meta are 55% female. That's fantastic. That's a huge market that other breweries aren't able to gather. We make sure, you know, it's not a thing that we're like focused on every second of every day, but the the canned designs and the branding and the marketing are gender neutral, but also just fun. Like they're not, it's not a thing, we're not trying to be over-ego, over masculine, which other brands do, because that's the heart of where craft brewery kind of started.

Expanding the audience beyond traditional craft beer

Reshma Vadlamudi 8:32

Yes.

Scott Hand 8:32

Um, but us being able to go in another direction and say fruit belongs everywhere, and here's how how good it tastes, is a thing that kind of opened up that community to allow more stuff to happen. And I think that's been a piece that I'm happy to keep doing. I want to do more of that. I I don't like the fact that all of the market demographics are a thing that we have to even pay attention to, if that honestly makes sense. Yes. Um, I'm just happy that we get to pull in a bigger audience. I would love for it to be bigger than what it is now. Yes. Um, it's that's the education piece that's difficult. Um, because people have this mindset, they've seen it on the shelf next to a blogger and an IPA. And if they don't drink those, then they think that that's what we're next to, right? If you saw a cracker next to the Cheez-Its, you'd think that it was a you know, yes, something like a Cheese It. But it's it's tough to be something different and be stuck in that same spot.

Reshma Vadlamudi 9:31

Yes, exactly. So when they so when you guys are in Kroger or something when the product is in Kroger, so it's usually next to the beers and never close to the wine or anything.

Losing control at scale (retail realities)

Scott Hand 9:42

Yeah, that's the thing we've talked a lot about, and it's it can't be the way that Kroger buys their stuff, the way they merchandise things. You know, you could ask a tiny little convenience store to move it over, but yes, are they going to? Yeah. Is it worth it to have that level of management on small little accounts?

Reshma Vadlamudi 9:59

Yeah.

Scott Hand 10:00

The bigger the account, the less control we have. So, you know, trying to get it into a Walmart or a Target is great, but we have almost no control over it once it happens.

Reshma Vadlamudi 10:09

Yes. Your beers are incredibly incredibly distinct, wild, acidic, and truded. Why did you imagine your customer would be? Who did you imagine your customer would be, and how did you reach them? So I know you mentioned about it being women. Is that what you expected it to be?

Scott Hand 10:28

Yes, and no. I'm I'm always excited when I get to let somebody else try it for the first time. And that's again, and part of it's the trouble of people thinking that we're just a beer. Just a beer means a thing. It means a flavor, it means an expectation that many people have had. Um but we're the urban artifact brand is not that so much that it's the number one thing we have success with is when we finally get people to try it. Oh, this isn't at all what I was expecting. Yeah, that's what I've been saying. You gotta get it, you gotta take that first sip and be like, yeah, this is absolutely just raspberries and blackberries in my face, and it's delicious. Oh, and it also has 8% alcohol. I'm gonna really have fun with this.

Reshma Vadlamudi 11:13

Yes.

Why first-time experience matters more than messaging

Scott Hand 11:13

So it's the again, I the demographics don't matter because we've had success everywhere in places that other craft breweries don't. And that's the piece that the the music was an interesting part of our bit building that business at the beginning because we had mu live music six nights a week. It's not all the same music, it's different. You know, you have different genres, different bands bringing in different audiences to walk past that bar every night. And some people who you know stereotypically like this type of music are gonna drink a specific type of drink. That was something that was a fun learning experience for us. You know, when this band's playing, everyone's coming, they all just want PBRs. Well, is it a cost thing or is it a taste thing? It was it was a test no matter what. Like we got to learn, you know, okay, this this group's playing, their audience is coming. That audience has been kind of semi-trained or used to experiencing this sort of drink at this sort of event. And we got to bring in and cycle in tons of different audiences, thousands over years. So we got to learn that it doesn't always mix, you know. We're not gonna sell a bunch of fruit tarts to the heavy metal crowd. That doesn't mean that we're not gonna make some converts out of them, but it's not gonna be the thing that works really well.

Reshma Vadlamudi 12:38

Yes. Did you guys try to market with the content like influencers?

Scott Hand 12:45

Fast forward to last year, um, 2024, we launched uh hemp beverage called Costalo using our obvious fruit expertise. So these are sodas made with real fruit that have um hemp derived THC in them. It's a whole new beverage category, not in chain, like it's not a thing that Kroger has authorized yet, but it's blowing up in different places. Um, it's non-alcoholic, which means it doesn't re follow all of the alcohol rules. Alcohol has tons of very specific rules about how it's sold, distributed, and even mailed. This is this is where I'm answering this question. Yes. Um, and with that launch of that brand, we have dove heavy into the influencer marketing. In fact, it's this almost the only way that I've been spending money on it, honestly. Is I've got a platform and I send out parcels to new different influencers of trying to get to like 20 or 30 a month. And we've been doing this for a year.

Reshma Vadlamudi 13:47

Okay.

Influencer marketing vs regulated products

Scott Hand 13:47

Um, and because it's soda, I can ship it pretty much anywhere.

Reshma Vadlamudi 13:52

Okay.

Scott Hand 13:52

Alcohol, I can't ship a beer almost any, like there's only like nine states I'm allowed to ship it to, and we don't distribute to all of those nine states. So it doesn't do me a lot of good to be able to ship it to Alaska if they can't actually buy it in Alaska. Yes. So that was part of the problem with the influencer marketing with alcohol.

Reshma Vadlamudi 14:13

Okay.

Scott Hand 14:13

It can work if you're big enough and you're just in enough places, but ultimately that was the thing that it hasn't been as effective. Okay. We've dove into it really big for Costello and it's been pretty effective, I think.

Reshma Vadlamudi 14:24

Yeah.

Scott Hand 14:24

Builds a whole audience online, gets a bunch of different folks, and it turns out a lot of the folks who are on those platforms doing that are women who like an interesting fruit beverage.

Reshma Vadlamudi 14:36

How do you position urban artifact in a crowded craft beer scene? What makes your brand stand out?

Scott Hand 14:42

It stands so far out that it's actually frustrating to me that it it can't. But the question is, how how do we deal with that anyway, right? It's still gotta be on the shelf next to the other folks. Um, part of that is just general market awareness and education, which isn't easy. I'm not very good at it, honestly. We don't spend a bunch of time and money on it, even though I think if we did, it would have huge payback. It's just not a thing that we're actively pushing a bunch of. I like to think that the branding is what does make it stand out. The bit of marketing that we do spend our effort on is about showing people that the it the it's fun and interesting, and you know, I get to draw real interesting little characters. The brewery spends so much time making the perfect fruit drink. They really do. It's creative, it's hard, it's not at it, not even nearly as easy as brewing a regular beer by any definition. The fruit adds a lot of different complexity, a lot of different requirements and needs for it. I felt like that deserved more. All of the artwork on the cans is hand-drawn. I don't use the computer for anything other than the graphic layout. I have a stack of paintings. They are actually hand-drawn, hand-painted artwork that gets scanned, that gets put on the can labels. To me, like that is the best I can do. There's probably more we can do, and there's probably more I should do, but that's the bare minimum to me. Is I gotta be able to put my full heart and creativity to make it stand out the only way I know how. So at least leveraging that as our key unique marketing difference is the the best and biggest.

Reshma Vadlamudi 16:28

What marketing channels or community partnerships have worked the best for you?

Scott Hand 16:33

I'd argue that it goes back to the education, and the more folks that we can educate, the better. So when we actually do a little dive and we get our sales team to like meet with the distributor reps and teach all of them, it essentially builds our sales team. Um, when they get to go and do tastings at stores, that's the thing. Is as soon as people t taste it and realize that it's different, that's the taste. But it's gotta be that whole all-the-way education, getting somebody to give that first taste. Yes. Um, so the to me, the most successful pieces have always been the more we can do to get that full engagement. Just putting up a poster or a billboard is not gonna change people's hearts and minds.

Reshma Vadlamudi 17:16

So, do you guys do like are there any beer festivals?

Scott Hand 17:19

I'm uh I'm so so do you guys go there, have your own stall, or do you um they used to be even more, but um now they've kind of been regionalized, but there's like Cincinnati definitely has one. We're there. Um, every big city tends to have one. We go both where our market is important. So, like we'll do we'll do one in Indianapolis. We'll do um, we just got invited to a big one in Madison, Wisconsin, because we just opened up Wisconsin for the hemp brand, too. So we can go there with Costalo and Urban Artifact, let people taste that, both of them.

Reshma Vadlamudi 17:57

Yes.

Scott Hand 17:58

Um, and but it takes time and effort, it takes our sales team spending an entire weekend behind a table at a in a tent. We've we've been at Oktoberfest a a number of times. That one doesn't have nearly the value as the taste of Cincinnati. We're definitely there. Um, the last two years we've actually been at Pride, and that's been way more useful than any of these other ones. Um, look the the crowd is far more open to uh fruit beverage there than uh the folks at Oktoberfest who want a German a German-style Oktoberfest beer, right? So being able to kind of pick and choose your audience helps a little bit too. Yes.

Reshma Vadlamudi 18:37

So who do you consider your competitors locally, nationally?

Who the real competitors are - and who they aren’t

Scott Hand 18:44

We are officially competing with other craft breweries in-chain retailers, right? It it stinks to think about it, but we we really are competing with shelf space with Rheingeist and Mad Tree and Great Lakes and Jack EO's. Um, there are other craft breweries in Ohio. Kroger has a whole section of Ohio breweries that they sell. So we're competing for their shelf space, which is dwindling. Kraft beer has been cutting back as other beverage categories are growing. So it's a tougher and tougher fight to keep those up. That said, I don't consider those our actual competitors, right? We're not really stealing audience from them, and they're not stealing it from us. Yeah, there are a few other fruit breweries in the in the country. Um, Line and Kugels is one of the bigger ones. They're out of Wisconsin. Um, we'd like to think that they're probably our biggest actual competitor. They're in all those chain retailers. Um, they put some fruit in their beer. It's not at all like what we do, and we like we could we could take a bunch of their drinkers.

Reshma Vadlamudi 19:55

Okay.

Scott Hand 19:56

So that's a thing that we're aiming for.

Reshma Vadlamudi 19:58

Yes.

Scott Hand 19:58

But it's that's a tough. One to do. They're much, much bigger. They're not local.

Reshma Vadlamudi 20:02

Yeah.

Scott Hand 20:03

Um, so that's like the national picture. And then, like, as we talked about, it's it's pulling people from other drink categories too. Um, getting people who would normally just sit down at a bar and order a house red really could be looking to see if they've got an urban artifact on tap, and that would be a an equitable transition for that person. And to me, that's exactly what I should be trying to target. But that's a really difficult thing to do.

Reshma Vadlamudi 20:29

How do you stay ahead of trends without compromising your brewing identity?

Scott Hand 20:34

I'd argue that the trends are the worst part of brewing. Um, there are tons of them, and there have always been, but because we have our own niche and we stay in it and go deep and heavy on the fruit beer, the trends happen kind of outside of our picture. Um, we're not getting distracted by the new style or the new uh it doesn't matter because we're not gonna do it. So I don't think that there's value in chasing those ultimately, except for the hype. And there are some breweries that live entirely on hype, but that's not not been where we've found any success.

Reshma Vadlamudi 21:11

What does growth look like for uh urban artifact in the next five to ten years?

Scott Hand 21:17

I'd like to think that we get to continue growing our footprint in terms of distro. Um, like I said, we're in 16 states. I'd love to be in more, and that'll grow once we establish and have the market presence to be able to do that. Part of it's just constraints. We might not be able to make that much right now. So we need to be to a point where we can brew more and then sell more. It's not just hey, we could open up Texas and sell in Texas, it doesn't just happen like that. You have to be able to support it from the operations sales all the way through. Yes. So I'd like to think that we'll be able to be big enough to manage that type of growth and keep growing. Um, but but that said, we also have lots of opportunity just in the places we are at. And I think that we we will get there. We're gonna establish more that the fruit beer is a thing that's not just a wave with the other craft beer. As that segment's been dwindling, I honestly think that the fruit segment where we sit is gonna stabilize and grow in a whole different way because it's not the same drinker, it's not the same buyer. I we're definitely gonna focus on where we're already at and leveraging all those partnerships that exist. There's there, I mean, on one hand it's easier, but on the other hand, it's not. Like we we've made the difficult parts, so now it's just about of doing more education, more tastings, more getting out in front of people. Um, starting over from scratch in a new state is on one hand, it's easier because you only have one relationship to start, yeah, but then there's a whole lot more to support after that fact. So uh, but I definitely want to focus, you know. I'd love to get bigger in Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Michigan, grow out from where we're at. There's still a lot of opportunity and people who haven't tried us. People don't even know we're in Cincinnati.

Reshma Vadlamudi 23:09

And are there any plans to expand into new markets? We just talked about it, increase distribution.

Scott Hand 23:16

We are also co-packing, which means that other companies, other brands are coming to us to brew and package their brand. Okay. So that's a whole piece that we're diving into at the moment with our expertise and equipment that we have to do the fruit, all of a sudden it let puts us in a few steps ahead of anywhere else that's doing that. So our team already knows how to handle lots of different ingredients, lots of different things. We have the ability to stabilize, can different things, and that has led to a different, a whole new revenue stream, honestly, of other folks that we then the kind of the fun part is we don't have to support it after it's out the door. It's other brands coming us just to do that packaging piece.