Live Differently

Ep.14 - Natural Building for Healthy Living and Healthy Environments.

• Melisa

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Sam Vivers has over 25 years of experience building natural homes.  In 2000, Sam built one of Australia’s first strawbale homes and has since delivered more than 50 strawbale and earth homes, and a further 40 homes using prefabricated straw panels. He is the Director of Viva Living Homes, an environmental building company specialising in prefabricated wall, floor & roof systems for high-performance natural homes and commercial builds. 

In this episode, Sam explains what natural building is and shares what you need to know if you want to build a natural home or a natural commercial project. 

What You'll Learn:

  • What natural building is
  • Some mediums used in natural builds (e.g., strawbale homes, rammed earth, hempcrete, light-straw)
  • How natural building supports human health
  • How natural building supports environmental health
  • The rise of natural building
  • Prefabrication in natural building
  • Where people build natural homes
  • Where to start if you want to build a natural home, and
  • Some common misconceptions about natural building.

Natural building is supported by research, industry developments, and underpinned by centuries of building knowledge.  This means that natural building is a viable option if you want to live in a home that supports your health while reducing the impact of the structure on the environment - both during the build and onwards. 

Connect with Sam:

Viva Living Homes - https://vivahomes.com.au/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/VivaStrawbaleHomes/

Instagram - @vivahomes_unearthed

Email - info@vivahomes.com.au

Coach with Melisa:

Email - 7genproject@gmail.com

Follow the show:

Instagram - @live.differently.podcast

**********************************************

Music attribution: 

"Wallpaper" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
 Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/



SPEAKER_01

Hey and welcome to Live Differently. Thank you so much for being here with me today and for sharing the show with your family and your friends. It means the world to me. This show is all about bringing you information to help you live a soul-aligned life. To create a life that aligns with who you are, what you value, and the way that you want to live. On the show, we talk about health, we talk about spirituality, and we talk about conscious living. And today's show is all about conscious living. Today we're talking about natural building. As someone who ran a college in natural health, to me, this conversation is really important because our homes, the built environments that we live and work in play a significant role in our health and the impact we have on the physical spaces we inhabit. Today, we're joined by Sam Vivers. Sam Beavers is director of Viva Living Homes, an environmental building company specialising in prefabricated wall, floor and roof systems for high-performance natural homes and commercial builds. With over 25 years' experience, Sam began in 2000 building one of Australia's first straw bale homes and has since delivered more than 50 straw bale homes and earth homes and a further 40 homes using prefabricated straw panels. He holds a Bachelor of Economics Agriculture, a diploma in building, is a licensed builder and supervisor, certified carpenter, master builder, and New South Wales representative of Osbale in Australia. Sam also delivers TAFE-accredited straw bale building training to industry professionals. Please join me in welcoming Sam Beavers to the show. Sam Beavers, welcome to Live Differently.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_01

It's great to have you. I've invited you on today because I want to talk about natural building. And for me, it's really important that the people that I have on the podcast are people who are reputable and who really have an understanding and a depth of knowledge with what they are talking about. And so thank you very much for being here because I did a lot of research trying to find the person that I wanted to talk to. And you've got more than 20 years of experience in this type of building. And you also teach people how to do this for themselves. And so I'm curious before we get into the conversation more deeply, how do you think today's conversation is going to help people to live more authentically?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think there's a big gap in knowledge about natural building. Like we tend to accept what we've been taught by the building industry, especially in Australia, and it's extremely conservative for a lot of reasons. And people don't understand that natural building doesn't mean that it's a gingerbread house or you know, your hands in a griddle or a hobbit hole. Natural building can be a standard-looking house that performs way better than normal houses, and you can live in it even more comfortably than a normal house. So hopefully, what people get out of this is first of all, that it's not something for the aging hippies. Um, and it's not something that is hugely or has to be hugely alternative. And a lot of natural building is now embracing the prefabrication that modding building is embracing. So, you know, the the there are a lot of paths forward with it, and I hope people get a bit of an understanding that it's a very viable way to build a natural, healthy house that sort of looks after the environment as well.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I love that to me, that kind of leans into it's something that's accessible to people. It's not something that's like an idea or a concept or something that um, you know, only uh people with a certain amount of knowledge or a certain area of knowledge can do. It is something that is a lot more accessible to people.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. And I think it's accessible in that it's becoming more common. And also for people who want to build their own house, I think building with natural materials is in general much more forgiving than building with, you know, human-made materials. So, you know, people want to take a lot of time and build their own house, they have that option as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, interesting. And so you're, I understand, a licensed carpenter, you're a builder, you're a supervisor, you have a bachelor's degree in economics with a focus in agriculture, and you're an award-winning builder. And that makes perfect sense because your houses are absolutely beautiful. So, how did you get into specializing in natural building? What was that journey for you?

SPEAKER_00

I didn't start my carpentry until I was 28 years old. I was working in the city, and I decided that my next step would have to be ride up the corporate ladder, and I didn't want that. So at 28 years old, I went and did a uh my apprenticeship, which was, I guess, fairly risky, but um, but I really enjoyed it. And people said, What's it like being a carpenter? And back then I said, Well, it's like building a bagola with your your dad, but you get paid for it, sort of thing. So I really enjoyed that side of it. But um, I had some health issues and I knew the building materials we were working with was working against that, you know, it just it was making me sicker. Um and my partner at the time, she was very aware of the environment and had a huge passion for that. So I had a small block of land, and when I met her, she said, Well, let's build a we should build a house on it. And I'd heard about straw bale building back when I was at university. And I said, Well, let's build a straw bale house. And she said, What's that? I said, I've got no idea. And that's where it started, you know, and there was no information at that time on the internet. There were two books which were written in America, which helped a bit, but um, you know, went ahead and built the first house and made some minor mistakes, nothing terminal. And at that stage, I'd finished my apprenticeship and you know, decided to get into building, and natural building was definitely the way to go from there. So yeah, it was a bit of a convoluted path, but it just sort of seemed to evolve as it went.

SPEAKER_01

And you were kind of learning as you went, so you had resources, but really um it's that practical application of what actually works in a house that you're going to live in as you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Very much so. And when when we designed and built the first house, I had very little understanding of solar passive design, of what insulation is, of what thermal mass is, which is the opposite of insulation, and where they should be positioned in a house. So we didn't do too badly, but could have done a whole lot better. And um, the reason I started teaching was because you know, I thought all this information should be available in one place so people can gather this information quickly and um and either build for themselves or at least have a knowledge when they're talking to designers and stuff. Because so often we see with project homes that the garage is on the north side and everything's facing the street, which is you know, usually the exact opposite of where it should be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, very impractical. When you go to actually live in it, you're like, this doesn't work. It feels strange. And so what exactly is natural building?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I guess it's quite subjective, but I believe natural building is anything which is utilizing materials which are low in embodied energy, like low in carbon, you know, and essentially the most basic form of natural building is taking a handful of mud and you know, stacking it up and building a house. But then you have things like mud brick and um rammed earth, you have hepcrete, you have straw, you have light straw. There's so many different mediums, but anything that comes out of the ground or out of nature, I would consider to be a form of natural building. And I should say that, you know, all the civilizations that have used these materials know so much more about them or knew so much more about them than we will ever know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that lost knowledge in a way, as we've kind of gone towards that um industrial manufacturing space, we've really lost that knowledge of how to live in harmony with the earth and how the earth can actually support the way that we live as well.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

What is rammed earth?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so there's two forms of rammed earth. There's stabilized, which uses um cement, and non-stabise, which uses basically the clay and materials in the wall. So rammed earth, you put up two shutters and you put the material in layers in between it and you ram it down tight, so it becomes a big monolithic structure. So one of the features of it is it is a thermal mass. So I've used that word a couple of times. Thermal mass, I mean, the name gives a hint, it's heavy and absorbs heat. I guess one example would be a hot water bottle in winter. That's the example I like to use. You put a nice hot water bottle in your bed, and that will slowly give heat to you. That's the thermal mass. Whereas the duna over the top is your insulation.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And in very broad terms, that's how your house should operate. You know, your insulation around the outside and thermal mass inside to try and regulate the temperature. In winter, the insulation keeps the heat in. In summer, the insulation keeps the heat out. Now, if that heat gets in and it hits the thermal mass, which is relatively cool, then the thermal mass will absorb that heat over time and cool down the air in the house. So, what it's doing is it's regulating that temperature inside the house. Now, you can't get summer sunshine on a thermal mass inside a house that'll work against you. So you've got to use the length of eaves, the positioning of the windows, all these sorts of things to make that work. But if it's used correctly, then um then the thermal mass inside the house is a great benefit. The challenge with a thermal mass on the external walls is it actually absorbs heat, but the heat will also pass through it. So eventually, you know, in winter, for instance, you'll start to lose heat from the house. And in summer, you'll start to gain heat if you have thermal mass exterior walls. And a lot of the natural materials traditionally were thermal mass. You know, you have cob, you have mud brick, you have rammed earth, those sorts of things. So you just have to be aware. People go, oh, one's good, one's bad. It's not. It's just how you use these products.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So how you use the products, and is there like a selection process for the environment that you live in, or is it more about how the house is designed?

SPEAKER_00

It's both. Yeah, yeah. Like different climates require different things. You go to northern Queensland and you may not want any thermal mass. You might want a lightweight structure that easily ventilates. You go to the top of Mount Kosyosko, then you'll need a lot, a lot of insulation and hopefully some thermal mass. And again, in a hot climate, you might want to couple to the earth, which is a big thermal mass, which will keep the house cool. Whereas in a cold climate like Melbourne or the Snowy Mountains, you want to separate your house from the earth as much as possible to so any heat you generate will stay within that envelope.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, interesting. Sam, I think this is a really important conversation because not just in Australia, but I think in many countries, we're facing a housing crisis, we're facing cost of living crisis, the affordability of housing, issues with building, more awareness of the materials that we're using and how they're affecting the environment. And I think many people are starting to think that what we're doing or the way that we're building or the way that we're living is not working. And I know if you look back through history, we didn't always live this way. We didn't always build this way. And I feel like it was almost inevitable that we arrived back here at this point in history and this conversation that we're having, returning more to a more earthy way of living and more in harmony with the environment that we're living in.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And I think um one of the challenges with modern homes is we now want to live in a certain amount of comfort. So what we do is we we insulate everything. Um, but we don't realize that the way we insulate it can affect how we live within our house and where there are, I guess, moisture points and we can get mold buildup. And you know, that this happened in the US and Europe, you know, 20, 25 years ago, they had sick house syndrome and stuff. So we've just super insulated the houses to be more comfortable, but they're making us sick. So we we have to, and that's a whole nother topic. We have we have to be aware of that. You know, if if you went into a house a hundred years ago in Australia, there were vents in the walls, the temperature inside was sometimes not much different to the temperature outside, but there was no mold or anything like that as a rule because there wasn't a huge temperate difference. So, as well as the materials, the way we're building and designing houses is changing. And there's a lot, a lot to that. So we have to be very aware. I think the most important thing about any home ahead of the materials used is the design of the house. But if we can also use natural materials which um which regulate humidity um and it's designed well, then we're a long way down the road to not only having way less carbon, embodied carbon in that building, but we have a much healthier living environment because you know there's a lot of things these houses do that can really assist with the health of the occupants.

SPEAKER_01

And that was actually going to be my next question. So can you help people to understand how these types of buildings can actually improve our health or support our health?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, there's a there's a lot of science behind this. Um, the last study I looked at, they said that like a straw bale house with um with earth renders or lime renders, which are breathable or hydroscopic renders, they it regulates a humidity, and that that humidity is usually between about 36 and 44 percent, depending on the climate the house is in uh and how well it's locked up. But that turns out to be a really healthy humidity for humans to live in. Um, it suppresses uh airborne bacteria because it's low enough to stop, stop them moving around. It suppresses VOCs, it suppresses things like dust mites, um, respiratory issues. It's moist enough to to alleviate bad respirator issues, but not too too moist to cause those other problems. Um, and it reduces issues like mold, etc., because the natural renders, when they're dry, they pull moisture out of the air. And when they're really wet and the air's dry, they release moisture back into the air. So that really makes a difference regarding that. There's a whole host of things it does that can really affect our health. There's also discussions around, you know, finishes and lines that aren't dead square. You can have natural houses which are very, very square and very minimalist, but a lot of them have round curves and stuff. And they say that mentally and emotionally that can that can be a benefit too. You know, we've heard stories of people with autism going to these houses and just being able to relax and settle. Um, so yeah, there's a lot to it as far as the health of the occupants goes that you know, even people who build these places are are generally not aware of.

SPEAKER_01

That's really interesting because I think um if you think back to how people originally lived, you know, like in a cave, a cave is not square. Um, and if you think back to Celtic times, they lived in roundhouses that were earth houses. So that's that's a really interesting thing. That makes perfect sense to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it does. And the reason we now have square houses is because they're more cost-effective to build, they're easier to fit our furniture in. It's a functionality thing. Whereas back then they used the materials they had, and a roundhouse was the same, you know, just as easy to build, if not easier, than a square house because of the the structural integrity and stuff. But now with conventional building materials, it's much easier and cheaper to build a square house than it is to build a roundhouse with a domed roof and um all those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01

And so, how does a natural build or a natural home help to support the environment?

SPEAKER_00

Depending on the materials you use, um, they absorb carbon rather than release it. I mean, I my knowledge is based largely around the straw panels that we make. Our history is building straw bale houses, and um we built almost 70 straw bale houses before we moved into manufacturing straw panels because we could see that prefabrication was the way the the building industry was going to go. We wanted natural building to be a part of that. So we've got these panels now, which makes it quite simple for builders or owner builders or architects, hopefully, to work with. Now, the reason they absorb CO2 is because the straw that we use is the byproduct or the waste product of wheat harvest and sometimes rice harvest. So it's absorbed CO2. We encase it in these walls for a hundred years and um yeah, and and we use as many low-carbon other products that as we can. Um, for instance, the lime renders we use, they produce carbon because you burn limestone to create lime, but it's about a fifth of the carbon that a cement render or or concrete would use. So we try to be very aware of what we're doing with regards to that. Now, we do have all the features of modern houses. You know, you've got sometimes a concrete slab or often a concrete slab, you've got glass in your windows, you've got metal in places of the house, and that's very carbon intensive, but it's um it's way less as a whole than a conventionally built brick house, you know, on a concrete slab, a standard concrete slab with tiles on the roof. You know, there's incredible amounts of embodied energy used to produce and transport these things.

SPEAKER_01

I know, um, particularly closer to the city, where um land is becoming a little bit more of a commodity, uh, there's not as much of it available. And I know a lot of people are pulling down older houses and subdividing and building new structures on those homes. And when I see that, I wonder what's happening with all of that building material. And so I when I hear you speaking just now, I'm actually thinking when the home has reached its point where it returns to the earth, a natural home can actually return to the earth rather than being put into a landfill or you know, releasing whatever chemicals into the environment when it starts to, you know, when somebody comes in and pulls it down to the ground.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's a really important point. You know, we we do use timber and sometimes it's treated, sometimes it's not. It's getting harder and harder to get untreated timber at the moment. So natural timber can certainly be reused, even treated timber can be reused. The straw will literally, you know, break down and become soil again. The lime renders can do the same. So, you know, those parts of the building that can't be recycled, you're right, can go back and become become part of the earth again, which is a really nice thing. Um but we really hope that you know, with these houses, it'll be a hundred years or more before they before they go back to the earth. And um, you know, the houses, straw bale houses in America, they've been standing for over a hundred years, which is which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's really impressive because if you look at a lot of the houses that were built like in the 60s, etc., those houses are not a hundred years old, but they're falling apart. So it's really lovely to hear that you can build a house from the earth and it can withstand, you know, the test of time and build memories and hold memories of generations in the one home. And then when it's lived its natural life, it can return to the earth. And you, you know, I think if you think about the way that you live, that to me sounds like a really beautiful way to live, I guess, to have that longevity in a space, but to know that what you're building is not going to, you know, create problems for future generations as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think that comes back to design as well. How important is design that a family can can evolve in a house from young children or I think, you know, just a couple through to a whole family and even grandparents, those sorts of things in the one house and then back. So I think that's really, really important that that we're aware of that. Um, it's my understanding on your point that the average house life in Australia before it gets knocked down or majorly renovated is less than 30 years.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Which is yeah, that's that's terrifying.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the not only the materials, um, but the the cost in continually having to maintain a house or add to it, you know, or upgrade it is, you know, almost perpetual.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01

Are you seeing more people turn towards natural building?

SPEAKER_00

There's certainly a great awareness now. Yeah. I think um it's been a slow, it's slow, slow grind. And I think as people become more aware of everything that's going on, the the definite answer is yes. And you know, I mentioned hempcrete, that's probably the other big one out there. What we're moving towards is trying to get these um these products out into the commercial market as well, because that's an industry that really produces a lot of carbon. And on the flip side of that, if our product and other products get out in the commercial market, people give it some street cred. Then they go, okay, this is a viable product because commercial people wouldn't use it if it wasn't. So that's really One of our focuses for the year is to get some commercial projects going, and in a couple of weeks we'll find out about whether our first one's going ahead of a large one. And yeah, I think that'll make a big difference regarding natural building and how it's perceived.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So when you say commercial projects, what are you referring to?

SPEAKER_00

When I refer to commercial, I mean um community halls, schools, um, any any sort of commercial building rather than the way it's made, but you know, what what its function is. And I believe because we've now developed these straw panels, it works with them because it's much, much faster. You know, the straw panels we've got can take three to six months off a off a build. So commercial people will now consider that because they don't want a bunch of people running around stacking straw bales or ramming hemp into a wall for three to six months. They just want it done and out because it's all about um making the money and and reducing risk. So that's sort of what we're looking at. We're looking at some schoolrooms, we're looking at some lump large gymnasiums and um and hopefully some other stuff on top of that soon.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's I think that's really great because these are structures that you would expect should you know be used for a long time and you do need to stand the test of time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you know, people might talk about the straw in there, but you know, they're gonna have to be super insulated. So the energy costs are gonna be lower, they're gonna be healthy without people even knowing about it. You know, there's gonna be all these knock-on effects that um that that hopefully people experience that they don't even know about.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. If the energy costs are lower, is this the type of home that over time is going to be a cheaper home to run?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, especially if it's designed properly, then yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you can move right into the whole passive house side of things where you regulate the air leakage. Um, and you know, you have your heat recovery systems and those sorts of things, which can really reduce that. That means a larger upfront cost, but yeah, definitely reduced running costs. So it can be used in that that aspect as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think people are getting their head around that in a much different way because what like if you think about solar panels, people are beginning to invest in batteries and they know that there's an initial upfront cost, but then over time it's going to pay for itself, and then there'll be that cost savings when you no longer have to pay off the battery. So it sounds like it's kind of comparable in that way, that there's that upfront cost, but then over time, because it reduces the cost of running the house, it eventually will pay for itself.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, there is that. And I think people who do this sort of thing, especially with things like passive house, are definitely still early adopters. I know that um in Melbourne and Victoria, because of the climate down there, you know, it gets quite chilly, as we've discussed in in winter and can get extremely hot in summer. It's um it's much more readily accepted down there, I think, rather than you know, coastal New South Wales, where it's a very moderate temperate climate, you know, where you know we we live up here and we've got our windows open nearly every day of the year, sort of thing. Well, every day of the year. So it's uh it just does depend where you live. But I notice that in Victoria and Melbourne, especially, it's really been taken on. But that doesn't mean there's not advantages wherever you do this, that there are huge advantages in energy savings and carbon emissions.

SPEAKER_01

And I think Australia is a unique environment in that you know every state is pretty much its own environmental system. Um but you know, certainly outside of Australia, they don't have you know those those spaces where one part of the country is burning hot and the other country, part of the country is burning hot and then freezing cold. And sometimes in the same day, but definitely in the same week. Um, so yeah, so I think this has, I guess, broader reach or broader interest, even you know, outside countries where there certain places in the country have their own little um you know environmental system, I guess. I love how you said that it seems like more people are moving towards this. I'm interested why you think that is.

SPEAKER_00

People understand that the world is a crazy place at the moment. You know, well, I believe it is, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty. And I think people, certainly in my circles, are starting to believe that, you know, it's going to get to a stage where we have to look after ourselves as much as possible because the powers that the be aren't in a position where they can do that anymore, you know, whether it's financially or ethically or whatever it is, doesn't really matter. So people are going, okay, if I can reduce my life costs and I can be in an environment where where I'm much healthier, then why wouldn't why wouldn't I do that? And people are becoming more aware of this. And I think health is a big part of it, but also, yeah, you know, protecting our planet and stuff as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. When you were talking about building the the commercial product that can be distributed or shipped out, it made me think a few years ago, um, I was looking into echo building and I spent a lot of time researching prefabricated homes. And I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on that and where you think that prefabrication and building is going, particularly in the natural building space.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, it's definitely increasing. Um, there are a lot of reasons for that. One is, you know, there's an incredible amount of waste on sites, whether it be time, whether it be weather, whether it be materials. You know, some people say that commercial jobs, for instance, they'll over-order, you know, 25% on materials because it's much cheaper for them to throw some materials out rather than have the whole job stop because they haven't gotten enough materials there. So, you know, there's there's that aspect of it. So prefabrication is going to get rid of a lot of that. It's going to reduce the need for skilled people on site. Um, it'll reduce the margin for error on site. So it seems to be people are realizing that. Um, and in the natural building industry, people are realizing that as well. There's two or three companies now in Australia who are looking at building prefabricated hempcrete. There's one guy in Queensland who's looking at building prefabricated rammed earth, which has been very successful in Austria. Um, so people are aware of this and we know that it's going to speed up building. The challenge is because it's early stages, it's still expensive. Um, we haven't got the economies of scale and size now that we need, but this is what we have to push through to make it work. Yeah. So there's a there's a lot going on with that. It's just there's not enough. And I see companies using these natural products come and they go because they just don't have the inertia to keep it going.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, interesting. You were talking about hemp creep. Can you explain to me the difference between I'm sorry I don't know this, um, but can you explain the difference between hemp creet and straw bales?

SPEAKER_00

That that is a really great question. So at its most base level, like a straw bale house is straw bales that the small ones, which are you know 700 millimeters long by 350 by 450 millimeters, you stack them up like bricks and you render them with natural renders. Usually there's a frame holding the roof up, but there doesn't have to be. So essentially it's usually a non-structural product, which is simply the insulation and the basis for the wall, which has got all these natural benefits. So hemp crete always has to have some sort of structure. It's it can't support a roof system or anything like that. So you tend to build a standard timber wall and then you form up on each side of that, you put some plywood on each side of that, and you pack in the hemp crete. And the hemp crete's made up of the stem of the hemp plant, which has been broken up into it looks like large wood shavings, for want of a better word. You mix it with a lime binder, and then you softly pack it into those walls. Now, if you over-tighten it, um, it's going to reduce its insulation, which is not as good on external walls. And if you under-tighten it, you can't render it because it'll pull the pull the wall off as you put render on. So there's a bit of a skill in doing that. Yeah, they're two slightly different beasts. Um, there's probably more carbon involved in hempcrete because of the because of the binder, but they can both be made into prefabricated structures, which is a really nice thing. Um, and you know, finished on site. And that's really where where people are looking at going. I guess at the other end of the spectrum, they both can be used by relatively unskilled people. And I think straw bale is probably even better for that than hemp because it's hard to make terminal mistakes with straw bale. They are there, but it's very hard to do that. So, you know, you've got lots of things to consider with the different materials you use, but they're they're the two that are really making headway, I believe, in the natural industry.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, interesting. So it sounds like the straw is a lot more forgiving for people that aren't high skilled.

SPEAKER_00

That's my opinion from teaching courses on it and having a little bit to do with hemp crete, yes. But that's not to say hemp's a bad product. It's just um, yeah, it's it's probably a little bit more um, you need a bit more training with the hemp crete than you would with straw.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah. So more training, but not inaccessible.

SPEAKER_00

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01

We were talking before we started recording about I drive past the fields and see the dried um hay bales, you know, begin to roll up and sitting in the fields and stuff like that. And I just find it so fascinating to think that that can build a house, that you know, that can create somebody's home.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and there is a lot to that, isn't there? That you can see this product which is, you know, just left there. And you know, it's not it's not even stock feed, you know. That's not what straw is generally used for. There's not a lot of nutrients in it. There's a there are a lot of functions for it, but to to find these hollow straws and pack them into a dense bale and be able to use them as building blocks is quite something to think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When we're talking about natural build, you have touched on it a little bit. So are we talking about self-build or are we talking about working with a builder or a combination, like bringing somebody in to help with the plumbing and electricity? What are we really talking about?

SPEAKER_00

All of the above, depending on the structure you're making. Like with natural building, absolutely you can own a build. Um, absolutely you can find builders out there who have done a lot of this and specialize in it. And you can find builders who are willing to help out. I mean, some of the bigger challenges are finding an engineer to sign off on it, because we still have the national construction code we have to apply to. And one of the challenges is with Hemcrete and with Straw Bale, is it falls outside the National Construction Code. So what we have to provide with our panels, for instance, and what everyone has to provide for their own house if they do straw bale is a thing called a performance solution to show how it complies with a with a with a approved house, for wants a better word. So we have to provide evidence of the thermal qualities of the straw. We have to do a thing called a hygrothermal model, and that will tell you how well it weathers and how well it deals with moisture and mold. Uh, and also we've had to do a lot of fire testing and stuff. So it tells you if you're in a fire zone or some other zone, how it deals with that. So that's one of the challenges. You have to get this performance solution done up. Um, fortunately, with our panels, we just give a performance solution with them because we've done a bit of that. Um, but that does make it, I guess, a little bit more of a challenge for people wanting to go down this route. And I think the tighter legislation gets, the more of a challenge that can be. But none of it's insurmountable.

SPEAKER_01

I was actually going to ask you what some of the barriers are. And so it sounds like the legislation or the building codes are certainly a barrier. But from what you just said, there are people that can help you to support you in navigating that.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And countries like New Zealand and France have written, you know, parts of their building code around natural materials. You know, France has a very good straw bale part to their building legislation. We don't, like in Australia, the Australian standards are not written by the government. The Australian standards are written by private companies and they sell them. That's why you pay for them because they make money out of them. Now, if we had you know two or three hundred thousand dollars lying around, we could write an Australian standard around straw bale building. And that would then become, if it was approved, part of the National Construction Code, and that would really help. But, you know, as the industry is at the moment and as government is at the moment, no one's willing to throw the time, you know, there's no grants out there to do that. And if that happened, then again, that would make some big changes in the building industry.

SPEAKER_01

So there's a lot of opportunity there for that kind of building reform to make things more available and again more accessible to people.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And there's like there's there's so much evidence about how not only how sustainable and how much carbon they absorb, but about how durable they are, how healthy they are, and how they do comply. So, you know, there's there's all that side to it. And going back to your previous question about plumbers, electricians, those sorts of things, you won't be able to do your own work where it has to be certified on your house, but owner builders can engage those sorts of people as a builder would. So I always used to say that you won't save money owner building your house because builders, this is what they do every day of their life. But in recent years, given the cost of building, I think I have to take that back. I think if you're an organized person, you can project manage something, and you use some sort of prefabricated structure which is going to save time because that's the bane of most owner builders, then I do seriously believe people could save money doing an owner build if they have the right skills.

SPEAKER_01

And so that actually leads me to my next question because you teach this. Who are your students? So, do you see students of all ages? And why are your students interested in this kind of building? So, who are they and what's their driver?

SPEAKER_00

Most of them are environmentally aware. The vast majority are aware of that. You know, you talk about the environment, you look through the classroom, and everyone's nodding their head. Um, but they come from a host of backgrounds, they're all different ages, um, usually mid-20s upwards and largely, you know, 40s to 55s. A lot of them are retired or professionals, and they really have an interest in the environmental side of it. Not so many in the health side, some have that understanding, but it's largely in the environmental side. And I would say that at least a quarter of the classes are looking at doing an owner build of some sort in the future. Um, some of them are want a builder and just want more knowledge, which is I think is a very valuable thing to do. We get architects, we get engineers as well. Um, so there's a real mix, but yeah, generally it's there's an environmental backing to a lot of what they're why they're there.

SPEAKER_01

What is it that you're teaching?

SPEAKER_00

We run a few different courses. Um, you know, if I threw a huge umbrella over it, it would be called natural building. In October, we run a three-day course, which is specifically to do with straw bale. So we have a dedicated um site where we pull the walls down um and we put them up and go through every stage of the build. Because in the past, people run courses and they might put the straw up in one course, they do the base renders in another course, they do the finished renders in another course, and all people learn is one aspect of the build. So we make sure that we knock this down each time and that people get to see every aspect of the straw bar build. And we probably spend half our time in the classroom talking about design and materials and thermal mass and you know the the insulation values of different products, those sorts of things. So we do that one in October, and then we have a few other courses um closer to Sydney where we do things like natural renders. We've just recently done one where we did some lime renders, some earth floor, a green living roof um on a on a thing called a reciprocal roof, which we built last year. So there's a whole host of different things. We've done earth bags, we've done light straw, we've done uh rammed earth, a whole host of different things at that at the Sydney Institute of Permaculture.

SPEAKER_01

So I have another stupid question. What is light straw?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. So light straw is sort of a hybrid between cob, which is clay, and a straw bale. So you grab handfuls of loose straw and you make a clay slip, which is really like um a creamy mix of clay and water, and you dip the straw in that, and then you pack it in a wall between two forms, and then you pull the forms off, and amazingly it just sits there. So it's uh quite a good insulator, nowhere near the realm of hempcrete or straw bale, but quite a simple thing to do. Yeah, if you want to build a nice little shed and get some practice, light straw. People call it light earth, light straw, or straw light clay in America. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When people are building these homes, are they building them in a residential area or are they building them on property and acreage?

SPEAKER_00

Usually it's lifestyle blocks. We've built very few inside cities, although we've built, you know, some in Canberra and um in the in the heart of town, but mostly traditionally they've been on lifestyle blocks. More and more they're moving to city centres. We've done a lot in eco-villages, which could be considered residential. You know, um, there's one on the central coast, Narara, where the houses are quite um densely located, but traditionally it was lifestyle blocks. Now it's becoming more and more moving towards residential.

SPEAKER_01

What's an eco-village?

SPEAKER_00

Ah, an eco-village. There's a few of them around Australia, and it's it's great that there are. So the term eco-village covers a whole range of, I guess, facilities. But the eco-villages we work with are basically a community where people have agreed on how they want to live. Um, usually they have shared gardens. Um, Narara, for instance, has they generate all their own power. They've got so every house has to have things like solar panels, has to recycle water. So they've got certain mandates on what they have to do. And all these like-minded people come together and and live in these communities, grow their own food as much as possible and and share similar ideas. So there's a few of them around Australia. There's one up near Newcastle, there's some in Western Australia, Queensland, there, there's a few around.

SPEAKER_01

Sounds like a really supportive way to live.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think um, I think yeah, some very interesting stuff going on at the moment in Australia with that.

SPEAKER_01

If somebody is wanting to build a natural home, what would your advice be to somebody if they are trying to figure out where to start?

SPEAKER_00

I guess it depends on their knowledge. But the first thing to do would be to reach out and talk to someone with some knowledge in this. So, I mean, the challenge with natural builders is we're all extremely biased. We've got to put our hand up and say that. Yeah, we want people to build like this because we have a passion about it. But you need to approach someone who's quite rational, first of all, about the benefits of it, the cost of it, and the process of it, you know. So, you know, we have people reach out to us. I think do a course would be a great idea, you know, a one or two-day course might be a great introduction. Or if you're more serious about it, um, yeah, reach out to a group like us or other natural builders and say, okay, what do we need to know about this? What is the process? What's the likely cost of it? And and um and go from there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so gather your information and form your your support system.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. And you know, gather your information from more than one place because as I said, we're all biased with our opinions about things. So, you know, you you speak to a hempcrete builder and hemp crete's the greatest thing in the world. You speak to a mud brick builder, and that's the greatest thing in the world. You know, you speak to a straw bar builder, again, the same thing. So you're best off talking to people using different mediums, perhaps, or go and do some research on that. And the internet has an immense amount of um information now, which it didn't have when we started like 26 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I've spent hours.

unknown

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

It's a great source of information. Um, but at some point you've got to actually talk to somebody and and you know figure out what the nuts and bolts of this are for you.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And look, the biggest thing is you get the design right. You can spend, you can build out of the most beautiful natural materials. If you get the design wrong, then you're gonna have a still have a house that potentially produces a lot of carbon when you build it, but certainly grow requires a lot of energy to um to run it. You know, you might build a beautiful house with a rammed earth wall along the north side, single glazed glass, internal straw walls. That's all back to front and it it just won't work.

SPEAKER_01

Do people work with an architect or how do they know how to design it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we work with building designers. Look, I love architects for their creativity and what they've got. They're they're usually, especially if they're architects that specialists, they've got great knowledge and they've got a great eye for this and they understand the design. There's some great architects out there. If you're on a smaller budget and you have some idea of what you need and what you want, and or you're willing to do research, you might be better off working with a building designer because you know, these days budget is a is can be a huge constraint. So if you've got the money, go to an architect. There's some great ones out there. If you're on a budget, then you might be better off dealing with a builder who has a designer, like we do a bit of that, and other builders do, or approaching a designer. But always there should be discussions with the builder during the design phase because no matter how much the designer or architect understands, the builder may have some ideas that will save you big money or some different materials and stuff. So it should be a collaboration of nature of some sort.

SPEAKER_01

That makes sense. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think we should know or that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00

There's one thing that people often ask, and that is, you know, it's made of straw, won't it burn down?

SPEAKER_01

That's a very valid question, particularly where I live, where it where it seems like things are always on fire.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So um, I mean, Hemp Creed's had their fire testing done. We've done, like I'm on the committee for the Australian Straw Bile Society, and that's a good place to get some information and stuff. And um, in the past, we've done fire testing through them. Um, with our panels, we've had to fire test those. So we burnt them at the CSIRO for two hours at a thousand degrees Celsius, and that meant they had to support three and a half tons, they couldn't have their integrity compromised, the temperature couldn't rise on the other side by a certain amount, and they passed. So it's got a thing called FRL 120, 120, 120, which means structurally it's fine after the two hours of burning at a thousand degrees. So with the thermocouplers on one side the temperature was like a thousand and forty-six degrees after two hours, and on the other side it was between 54 and 68 degrees.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

So it's got incredible thermal properties, but it you know, it's it survived that test. We've also done bushfire testing on them up to Bell 29, but essentially with the FRL test, you can usually go to flame zone anyway. So the thing with straw is it it's got a lot of silica in it, it's tightly compressed, so it's it's a bit like for the older people amongst us, it's a bit like burning a telephone book. You throw it on a fire, it won't burn. You pull a page out, that burns very quickly. So straw bales are a bit the same, plus you render it with a lime render that gets more fire resistant as it cooks. So yeah, they're incredibly good when it comes to fire. You know, way better than a standard timber frame house.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's really relevant, particularly in some environments where fire is definitely an issue and something that you know people live with. We've just gone through another summer here in Australia and it is quite prone to bushfires, and it's something that's at the front of people's minds.

SPEAKER_00

It is a challenge, but um, you know, we built one in the Blue Mountain Kotumba and it became the refuge house in the in the in the vicinity for in case there was a bushfire because it was in a flame zone. So yeah, it was um it was it's interesting and and good to have those tests done so we can feel secure about that. There was one other thing that people often ask about is what about mice? What about rats? Aren't they going to live in my house in my walls and stuff? And you know, from our experience, the answer is no. There's no cavity for them to get into. There's solid render on both sides, so it's a monolithic structure. And, you know, there was a mouse plague in a small uh suburb that we built one in, and they were about the only house that didn't have huge mouse problems because with all the brick veneer, the mice were accessing the roof space through the cavity in the wall. Um, so these people had very few mice, whereas the rest of the community were inundated by them. So things like that, they they tend to function better as well.

SPEAKER_01

And I know some people will actually build a straw bow house and then render it, but then leave like a little window so you can see the straw through it. I've seen that when you're explaining that. I was like, I wonder if that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, usually you put some glass in front of it. It's called a truth window. I always wanted to put a ceramic mouse behind our truth window, but I never see it.

SPEAKER_01

So what's the main message that you want people to come away from today's conversation with?

SPEAKER_00

I guess that natural building is alternative in a way, but it's not a hippie, as I said, Hansel and Gretel product. It's a very modern certified building system, which is way better for the environment. It is way better for your health than can conventional building. And hopefully it's the way of the future as people become more and more aware of what's happening in the world. So yeah, don't write it off because you hear the word straw or the word hemp. Do some research and find out the benefits of it because there are very few, in my view, there are very few drawbacks and a whole lot of benefits.

SPEAKER_01

And it sounds like it's a viable option and it's a way that we're moving towards in the future. So I agree with you. I I I'm really fascinated by this, and I think it's an incredible option and something that people can really consider as not necessarily an alternative, but a viable choice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How can people connect with you, Sam?

SPEAKER_00

They can reach out to us. I mean, our company is Viva Living Homes. We we have an Instagram and a Facebook site, and they're they're good for photos because I know a lot of people are visual. They can see what we've done, they can see the courses there. Our email is info at vivahomes.com.au. If they want more information, just drop us a line and we'll get back to them with everything we can.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll put all those details in the show notes as well so people can access that and find you. So thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00

Class, Melissa, thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Live Differently is made on Unceded Warundry Land in Melbourne, Australia. It's an independent production of the Seven Generations Project, founded and led by its host. Live Differently is possible because of our listening community. My thanks to all who listen and give by sharing and supporting the show. Alright, one more thing. The information shared in this podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed are based on personal experience, research, and perspectives in the area of health, spirituality, and alternative living. This podcast does not provide medical, mental health, or professional advice, and nothing discussed should be used as a substitute for consultation with a qualified healthcare or licensed professional. If you have a medical question, health concerns, or are considering making changes in your life or wellness routine, please seek guidance from a licensed healthcare professional or local provider or local professional who can address your individual needs. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that you are responsible for your own health decisions and well being. Awesome. I'll see you next time.