Ep.16 - The Spiritual Journey as a Path for Self-Awareness and Coming Home to Yourself.

In this episode, I talk to Holly about the spiritual journey. Holly is the creator and producer of the docuseries "Steps to the Soul - A Camino de Santiago Journey." 

In this episode, Holly shares the lessons she learned from walking the Camino de Santiago and silent meditative practice.  Through these lessons, she provides us with some tools for living a spiritual life and spiritual practice. 

What You'll Learn:

• What triggers the spiritual journey
• How to come back to yourself
• Detachment
• Facing major life transitions with grace
• Cultivating self-awareness
• Acceptance and surrender
• Processing endings
• Self-abandonment
• Following your intuition
• Opening our hearts and minds to magic, and
• The spiritual journey as a way to help us move through grief and loss. 

Connect with Holly:

Alta Adventures - https://www.youtube.com/@AltaAdventures

Instagram - @alta_adventures_

With love,

Melisa

Coach with Melisa:

Email - 7genproject@gmail.com

Follow the show:

Instagram - @live.differently.podcast

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Music attribution: 

"Wallpaper" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
 Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hey and welcome to Live Differently. Thank you for choosing to be here with me today. I am so grateful to have the opportunity to be here with you. If you're new to the show, a very warm welcome. This show is all about bringing you information to help you live a soul-aligned life. I just want to say a really huge thank you to all of you for your continued support of the show and for sharing the show with your families and your friends. It means the world to me because it means that the stories that I'll get shared, their experience, their expertise and their knowledge get to reach other people and maybe help them where they're at in this moment in their lives. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. If you're looking for support to help you navigate your own transitions in life and you want to coach with me, please email me at sevengenproject at gmail.com. That's the number seven G-E-N project at gmail.com. Today we're talking to Holly. Last year I was doing some research on a trip that I wanted to take and I came across Holly's work. Holly is the creator and producer of the docuseries that gets to the soul, a Camino de Santiago journey. I was looking for something that spoke to my own quest to find a deeper meaning in my own life, to touch me in a deeper place and to help me to connect with where I was at that moment in my life. And Holly's YouTube series really met me exactly where I was at. Her channel, Alter Adventures, shares stories that inspire personal growth. And I have invited her here today because I really want to talk about the spiritual journey. Please join me in welcoming Holly to the show and let's get talking. So, Holly, thank you so much for being here today and welcome to Live Differently. Thank you so much for having me, Melissa. It's really an honor to be here. I'm so excited, so excited, because I spent a good amount of time last year doing some research on a trip that I wanted to take, which is the Camino. And I came across your DocuSeries and I absolutely loved it. Because, first of all, you're an amazing storyteller. But what I was looking for was something that spoke to the spiritual aspect of the Camino because, you know, for me, I wouldn't wanted to do it as a spiritual journey. Um, and so when I landed on your docu series, I so appreciated it because it was exactly what I needed at that time in my life. So thank you for that. And when I was starting the podcast, I knew I wanted to do an episode on the spiritual journey. And as I was thinking through, I was like, who can I speak to? And I was like, I would love to speak to Holly.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Wow, that makes me feel amazing. I will say that you thought of me to have this conversation. I'm I'm really honored.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Oh, I'm so honored as well. But thank you so much for being here with me today. And so, Holly, as we start the conversation, I do want to get your perspective. How do you think today's conversation will help people to live a more soul-aligned life?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

That's a great question. I think one thing that I want to offer people in this world is tools. So, tools that they can use with their own spiritual life, with their own spiritual practices to help them move forward, even if it's for a week. If these tools help you for longer than that, great. But just anything that I can offer to help people, you know, anything that I could offer, even a past version of myself that I could have used um is really just what I want to offer people.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah, I completely resonate with that because we go through different stages of our lives. And sometimes we kind of need to connect with a moment in time, but we recognize as well that we're continually growing and evolving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah. And also what some things that helped me early on in my spiritual journey, you know, kind of fall off and then you pick it back up again, or you remember the spiritual teacher that really resonated with you. And it kind of ebbs and flows, just as everything else in life does. So something that works for you now may not work for you in the future. And um, you just kind of just have to take it as it comes.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, I I totally agree with you. And it's nice that you have something that lives in a space that you yourself can also go back to because those things are still true, no matter, you know, like sometimes it is nice to go back and say, okay, what did I learn there? And that is still relevant now. So I need to go back and touch back into that because that was really valuable.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Absolutely, absolutely agree. And sometimes we think we've learned a lesson and have gotten past it, but then we have to actually go back and revisit it and dig up things that maybe we didn't see before, or now we have kind of a higher perspective, and we can go back and see different lessons that we may not have seen in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, yeah. Today we're talking about the spiritual journey because the Camino that um you really beautifully depicted is a spiritual journey. Well, I see it as a spiritual journey, and I know a lot of people do as well. And when people embark on a spiritual journey, quite often it's because something in life has brought them there. And so I'm curious, what was it in your life or from your perspective that took you on that journey?

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Great question. The Camino is it just holds such a special place in my heart. And I actually heard about the Camino when I was studying abroad in Spain. I was studying abroad in Bilbao in northern Spain in 2018. It was towards the end of my university studies in Spanish, it was part of that. And I remember during that semester um abroad, I heard about the Camino. We we had one short lesson about it, but my intuition was so loud in that you are going to do this Sunday. It was immediate. It was no question about it. I'm absolutely embarking on this journey. And I lived in Spain two years later. I went to move to Madrid, and that was during 2020, during the pandemic, and I had actually plans to do the Camino that year, but I wanted to have the full immersive experience, and I didn't want there to be any kind of masks or restrictions or anything in the Albert Gase. So I put that aside. Um, I ended up moving to France for a few years and met an Italian guy that I later married, and things just weren't, I guess, working out how I thought they were going to. And I just felt the continual pull from the Camino. It was very subtle for a few years, and then it got louder and louder. And the fact that I needed to, I felt at that point that I needed to do something a bit dramatic. I needed to find a way to come back to myself, and I felt that the Camino was going to offer me that. And I think each one of those people was put on my path for a very specific reason. And you can't anticipate those things, but you can follow the pull and follow the intuition that you need to do something without knowing how it's going to turn out.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I love how that journey brought people into your life, you know, because you couldn't have gone out and met these people any other way. It was like they just came.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

And yeah, they each even and and the Camino is so beautiful in that it really helps you learn detachment because sometimes you'll have an incredible conversation with someone along the trail. And and the Camino, there are several other spaces like this, where people just kind of go in with their hearts wide open, and you know, you can have really deep conversations with someone you just met two seconds ago, and they will give you a message that you didn't know you needed, and then you won't ever see them again. And so you really have to learn this kind of acceptance, and you really have to learn this detachment in a way that I don't think a lot of other journeys in quote unquote the real world offer you that.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And so when you received those messages, do you think it was because you were in a space where you had an open heart? And if somebody had told you that outside of the Camino, would it have landed the same way?

SPEAKER_02 9:45

That's a really interesting question. And I think you do go in with such an open heart. And I think that one of my intentions that I set specifically for the Camino was that I was going to listen to my intuition no matter what, even if it was something I didn't understand, like go pick up this glass. You know, I was just going to follow it and not question it. And that is something from the Camino that I've tried to carry into my life ever since the Camino was almost two years ago now, which is crazy to think about. But yeah, I think that I think that because you are so open and feeling so kind of raw and vulnerable, I think you're definitely more susceptible to receiving those messages. And I think, you know, you can call them your higher self, you can call them spirit guides or God, whatever you want to label it as. But I think those messages come directly from that source, and you have to be you have to be open to hearing them.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah. What was the biggest lesson that you took from that journey?

SPEAKER_02 10:58

There's so many. There are so many that it's hard to pinpoint one of them. But I'm really glad that I set the intention for myself to listen to my intuition because that is a skill. I call it a skill because it's something that you actually you really have to hone. You have to listen to it, and the more you listen to it, the stronger it gets. And because I set that intention for myself, because I was hoping to strengthen my intuition on that journey, I believe it has really helped me ever since into following that and to surrendering kind of and not having to know exactly what the next step is going to be, but just trusting that when I listen to this voice, it's going to guide me where I need to go. I think that's probably if I can hone that 45-day journey down into one lesson, I think that would be the one.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

What took you by surprise? What was the thing that you were not expecting, but it was the thing that you needed?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

There are a lot of things that were going on for me that I didn't put into my series intentionally. That was, you know, as I had mentioned, my marriage wasn't exactly going how I thought it was gonna go. And I had kind of known before we even got married that it shouldn't really be in it, and didn't listen to that intuition again. And so I was really kind of processing the the end of that chapter during the Camino. And what took me by surprise was how mentally and physically strong I was that I wasn't giving myself credit for before. I was kind of shrinking myself for several years and not only at a fault of that relationship, but also of my own, I guess you could say, lack of understanding of myself, my own lack of wanting to really go deep and excavate the caverns of my inner world that I was scared of. I was scared of what was gonna come out. I was scared of people not accepting me for who I really was. And the thing that surprised me the most was when those things were coming out, the people around me just can just continue to hold me. And it was either, you know, my best friends that I've had for decades or people I had just met. And it really shows you that your community and the people around you matter so much.

unknown 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I um I love how you went into that journey with the intention of developing your intuition, and that's what stayed with you as your greatest lesson. And what you just said just now really connects back to that because one of the things that kind of took you on that journey or or moved you towards that journey was that idea of not listening to your intuition when you started, you know, that commitment in terms of your relationship. Um, and I'll share, when I um married my first husband, I had exactly the same experience before I got married. I tried to end the end the relationship and somehow I ended up getting married. So, you know, it's like if I just listened, you know, obviously if I just listened, I wouldn't have my amazing kids, but if I had just listened and honored myself in that moment, I would have really brought something into myself that I wasn't yet ready. I wasn't yet ready to recognize and see for myself. Life had to show it to me.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah, I love that you said that. Not not yet being ready, because I think what our intuition shows us is that we have a lot more power within us than we want to give ourselves credit for, or that society, the world has allowed us to give ourselves credit for. And so recognizing that power that we have innately, it's it's um it's a lot to contend with, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

It's a lot to contend with, but it's so amazing because you see, like in this world, I can hold space, and I don't need to apologize for that.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I love what you're saying, because it's to me, it's like no matter what life throws your way, even when you feel like you've lost yourself, you can find your way, you can find your way back. It's just you know, you were saying, just take this, take that step. And you know, to me, it's such an amazing metaphor for life. From your experience having walked this and and having been on, you know, a life journey, but also a spiritual journey. Um, what would you say to someone who feels like they've lost themselves? Um, and maybe they're not yet at the beginning of taking that first step. What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

When you ask me that, I am brought back to myself five, four or five years ago, and I was I was feeling that pull, and I wasn't, as you said, yet ready to take that step. And I think the biggest piece of advice I could give is just to get comfortable in the silence because the the world around us wants to distract us, it's designed that way, and it wants to keep us separate from ourselves, from our true inner beings. And you know, you don't have to do something as extreme as going to walk 800 kilometers across Spain, right? But you can carve out little moments for yourself where you are sitting with yourself in silence, and that doesn't have to be meditation, you know, you're on a cushion and imagining all these things, but just getting comfortable with you and getting comfortable with making the room for that inner voice to come through, if that makes sense. I think what I was lacking before the Camino, and that was I was really excited for, as I mentioned, was the time just alone. And so just if you can carve out five, 10 minutes of your day where you're journaling or you know, not having something external to distract you and you're just writing or you're just sitting and thinking or not thinking, you know. Um, I think that's really important is to start to get comfortable with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

So finding yourself and hearing yourself in the silence.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

I think for some people that is really hard. Because as soon as you start getting silence, like all these things like flood you because they're just waiting for the opportunity for you to carve a little, you know, time aside. So how would you approach that if if that's not something that you've done before?

SPEAKER_02 18:25

It can be overwhelming. I understand fully the not being ready, if you will, for making such big changes. But I found that you're never really gonna be ready. Because I when I knew that I it was time for me to end my relationship, you know, we were just about to move from France to Italy. Um, there were all these things that were taking place that I felt I wasn't quote unquote ready for yet. But the thing is, every there's something that's always going to be happening that you're gonna say, Oh, well, now this has happened and I can't make this big change because now we have this event in three weeks, and there's just never really going to be a perfect moment for your life to blow up, you know. Like if that's you say all these things come flooding in, and they do, and those things need to be dealt with, and it's not easy. And I'm here to say it's not the spiritual journey, it is not rainbows and butterflies, it is sometimes, but it's tough. And the person that I am today on the other side of this, I wouldn't take all of the hard things back to replace this version that I am, if that makes sense. Yeah, um, it's completely worth it. It's completely worth it.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

That's so beautiful, and I think that's really encouraging because you know it can feel terrifying. And like you said, there's you know, you're looking at things, you're like, okay, I can distract myself for another five or ten years, or you know, another three months, but ultimately that moment is gonna come. So choosing that for yourself, you know, rather than allowing it to happen to you. It's happening for you.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah, exactly. Do it taking the proactive steps to get ahead of it, I guess you can say. Um, are you familiar with Saturn return in astrology? Yes, okay, yeah. I I think you know, there was a moment when I didn't listen to my intuition before my Saturn return that I could have stepped into this a lot smoother, if you will. And then I hit that Saturn return and it just really kicked me into it. And it it felt jarring, it felt a lot of it felt unfair, you know. I I felt that because I hadn't set myself up the years prior and set that foundation of trusting myself, I was then just thrown into the fire, and it was all a lot more difficult than it needed to be because I just waited and waited and waited.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah. So for the person listening who's not familiar with the Saturn return, can you explain what that is?

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yeah. So that's when in your birth chart, which is just a snapshot of the planets at the moment you were born. So when Saturn gets back into the sign that it was in when you were born, is when your Saturn return starts, and it lasts for um about two and a half years, and it really just shakes a lot of things up. And if it just strips away everything that is not aligned with the path that you're supposed to be on, and really just gets you. On the right path. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah. And how incredibly symbolic and metaphorical that you're going through this and then you're on the path of the Camino.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I was, you know, I was again against my intuition working at a corporate marketing job as an account manager. I hated it. I knew I would. Um, but it was just all these things kind of piled up, and I just felt that I needed this big release and this big moment to do a dramatic thing. Um, but your journey obviously doesn't have to include this dramatic thing. If you are willing to sit with yourself and not let it all pile up like that, then it can be a lot more, you know, smooth. Yeah, a lot more gentle and yourself. Great word, gentle.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

I'm gonna pause us here for a quick moment because what Holly is sharing is incredibly insightful. She's given us so far two examples from her life where she's told us about how her intuition gave her one message, but she moved in a different direction against her better judgment, and we all do that. So I'm incredibly grateful that she's been so open about this, and she recognizes that for herself now, in hindsight and with retrospect. What she's sharing is so significant for the spiritual journey because she's indicating, she's signposting for us that before we go through these moments of incredible transformation, of deep personal exploration on the spiritual journey or on the journey of life, that there's this pressure that builds up inside of us right before that big change happens, or right before we embark on a new part of our journey that's exploring ourselves or a part that's going to transform ourselves and move us into a different direction. And if you know somebody who's going through this process of transformation or is about to embark on a spiritual journey or a spiritual pilgrimage, please share this with them, hopefully before they start on something like the Camino to give them a bit of perspective as they start walking that journey and taking those steps for themselves. So let's hear more about how she navigated that for herself.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

As I said before, it's different for everybody. There's a saying on the Camino that the Camino never really ends. It begins when you decide that you're going to do it. So for me, it began with that hit of intuition when I first heard about it six years before I actually did it. And it hasn't really ended because you you go on it and you realize that there is much more to uncover, there's much more to learn about yourself, there's much more to learn about the universe and the world we live in and the people around us. I think it all kind of tiles on top of each other. And the the things you learn you'll use later. You you might learn something and not really understand it, but then later you'll be presented with the situation that you get to use that tool. Everybody's journey is different, and this the spiritual path is just what you choose it to be. I guess just just living a life with your heart wide open and understanding that everything comes in your path for a reason and a purpose, and just kind of accepting that.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

And that it's unique and individual for each of us.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I mean, since I decided to leave that relationship, I've been living pretty much nomadically and really getting comfortable with myself and knowing that just because I don't have a physical place that I can call home in this world, that my home is always within me and nobody can take that away from me as long as as long as I'm true to myself and I don't abandon myself.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

And I think that idea of feeling lost or feeling disconnected really resonates with what you just said about self-abandonment. Sometimes that sense of having lost yourself is because you've left yourself in different places along your life.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Most definitely. And especially as women, I think we're socialized to put everybody else first. And if we don't do that, then we're being selfish. I think it's selfish not to put ourselves first because then we're just we're completely abandoning everybody else in the process if we're not being true ourselves. We're we're leaving parts of ourselves with them and then they don't know what to do with them because we didn't tell them. You know what I mean? It's the best thing we can do is is to strengthen that trust muscle of our own intuition. I've never thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I've thought about it as, you know, kind of leaving parts of us in our history or in our past, but I've never thought of it as leaving parts of yourself with somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

We're all a formation of everyone that we've ever met, you know, everyone that has had an impact on us, and everyone we've had an impact on, we're just kind of building ourselves in every moment, and and it's ever-changing as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

How can taking a journey like the Camino open our hearts and our minds to the magic of life?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

When we are intentional with the way we interact with the world, that brings the magic to us. When you go on a journey like the Camino, you're just you it's so simplified, right? It's like it's just life simplified because you have one goal and it's to make it to the next town you're gonna get to. And to, you know, you have other goals as well. Hydrate enough, you know, eat enough fuel for your body to keep moving, take care of your vessel, but it it's simplified in a way that you're just out in nature, you're not filled with all of these other distractions of the world that we often are in in modern life. And what the Camino does do is sets us up in a way that we can walk through life with more of an open heart. And what I have felt myself doing since then is intentionally putting myself into more places where I know people are behaving in that way. You know, when you're on a journey like the Camino and when you're on vacation, for example, you're a bit less inhibitions or less kind of rigid in a way that you would be in your corporate job. Not everybody can go do a backpacking trip. Um, and I understand that. But I think just putting yourself in more situations like going to some kind of club or doing something that you don't normally do that you wouldn't put within the confines of your box of your normal life. I think when we start to do more of those things, I think is when the magic starts pouring in at a more consistent level.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

So it's almost as if you're creating the container for life to come to you, just as if, just as the same way, or similarly to the way that people came to your path on your journey. It's like life comes into the space that you've opened yourself up to.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Definitely. Definitely when you create the space for that, and when you kind of align with that version of you as well, when you just have the intention to walk with an open heart, I think that's when more of the magic can find you.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

I love the idea of walking with an open heart and how you've you've explained that it starts as you take the the first steps, or you know, the Camino starts when you when you decide that you're going to do it and your heart opens along the way. But I I love how you've described that it's stayed with you and that that's an intentional part of your life now. That's so like just to imagine people walking around the world with their heart open, it's like, how would we not change the world?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Right, it's such a beautiful thing if you think about it. Even if we just even if we had one moment per day when we just decided that we were gonna be open to the magic, it would change so much. It really would. And you know, it's not an easy thing moving through the world with your heart open.

unknown 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

I've been hurt plenty of times, and you kind of get better at recognizing people's energy and what you want to allow into your space and into your world.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And as you said that, I can see that very clearly, like you're opening to stepping into that energy and to being in that energy, and to, you know, kind of being in the flow of it and connecting with what feels good, but then being a little more in tune to what's not right for you and being okay with that.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

And the other side of self-trust is discernment, you know, it's really just filtering out what it is that works for you and coming back to not abandoning abandoning, excuse me, yourself is so important. And and the thing is, you know, you know what's right for you and you know what isn't. But we our minds try to take over and just grab on to that and we let it. And the key is to just trust yourself.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

I really enjoyed your series. I've said that, but I really do mean it. And I love the story that you told about that unfolding process, you know, how you kind of open up and unfold as you go through the journey. And you described that so beautifully. You described it, but you also showed it. And one of the things that kind of stuck with me, you um you shared this was actually in one of so for those of you who haven't seen her series, go watch it. So she talks and she shares. Um, and then she writes these beautiful little, you know, I guess I don't know if you call them a pop-up or whatever, but these beautiful little vignettes. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So one of the things that she wrote, I'm gonna I'm gonna share it here, is on the Camino, you walk with your shadow, both physically and metaphorically. And when I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh. And so to me, to recognize that you're walking with your shadow is major. It is so major because yes, it speaks to pain. It speaks to we recognize the parts of us that we don't yet see and we acknowledge those. And therefore, it also speaks to acceptance, accepting the part of you that you might think other people might not accept. But uh whatever happens outside of you doesn't matter because it's a part of you. When that stuff comes up, you said you had your your friends and your support system. What is it like to walk through that space and to see, yes, the physical shadow, but to also see yourself in that way.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Melissa, I love that that resonated with you. That um that was such a small part of the series. And it was actually, I remember that day very clearly. It was a day that, you know, when I'm making this series, it's called Steps to the Soul on YouTube, by the way. And when I was making it, I didn't always want to be filming because I wanted to be in the moment as well. And I was finding it difficult sometimes to stick with the intention that I had to make this series, even though I didn't know what it was gonna be because I had no idea what the journey was gonna be yet. And then just understanding that there were gonna be tough moments and there were gonna be moments that I couldn't show. The biggest part of the shadow work, as you know, Carl Jung and people have termed it, the biggest part is yes, you I mentioned the community, you just mentioned it just now. But the biggest tool that I can give someone that I would that I wish I had had then, that I'm looking back at even two years later from the outside of the Camino is just giving yourself grace and treating yourself as you would treat your own best friend. Because if your best friend, and as I was doing during the Camino, I was calling my best friend, telling her these things, and telling her how stupid I felt and how how dumb I was being. And she's just like, No, you're not, you know, this is something you're moving through, and you need to be nicer to yourself, you need to be so nice to yourself that you are your own best friend. That is a major lesson that I've learned through all this, is that you have to have that internal dialogue be so kind and compassionate because yes, you have friends to do this, but you can't put that on them all the time. You can't expect someone to always show up for you in the moments that you need it. You have to also do that for yourself. And you know, when I put that little vignette on the on the screen, the the visual was me taking a video of my shadow on the ground. And a lot of the Camino, you're walking by yourself. And my group, my friends and I, we set aside, you know, even though we spent a ton of time together, we intentionally set aside a lot of time in order to be on our own. And we would be honest with each other when we needed some alone time. And I think that openness was great. Circling back, I think the the main part of it is to be your own best friend.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah. That lands.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

It's so important. It's so it's crucial. It's crucial. We have to, we have to give ourselves grace. And even I'll share a story of something that happened to me two days ago. Was I was in the car and I had a wave of grief come of the way that I handled the end of my relationship. Looking back, it was extremely cringy, and I can see that now, and I think it's good that I see that because it means that I've grown and I would definitely not handle something in that way now. But I had a wave of grief and of missing this person, and you know, we haven't spoken in a while, even though we're on good terms now. And I just instead of in the past where I would have suppressed it and tried not to feel the emotion, I instead just let whatever come up, come up. And I was crying, and I was talking to myself aloud in the car and saying, It's okay that you feel this way, it's okay that you thought that you let this go, it's okay that you've let it go multiple times. You did the best that you could with what you had, and it's over now, and it's okay, and you're okay, and you're moving forward in so much alignment, and you're moving forward with so much more grace than you did then, and that is good, that means that you've grown, and just talking to yourself in that kind and compassionate way has really been a tool that I've been leaning into a lot lately.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, I think that's really powerful that idea of befriending yourself and then showing up for yourself, like your friend said, showing up for yourself as somebody would show up for you. It's caring about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah. And it it it helps to be in that headspace as well, because we're going to make mistakes, you know. We're not, even if you are on a spiritual journey, I think, especially if you're on a spiritual journey, you're gonna be tested and you're gonna continue to make mistakes because we're humans and that's what we do. We're not we're we're spiritual beings, but we're most definitely still stuck in the trenches of emotion and reaction and the physical world.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah, the physical world and being open to that because uh you know, I I've heard um spiritual teachers say multiple times over the years that the idea of the spiritual journey is not to go and you know sit in a Montessori or you know, go and sit in a temple. You that you have to walk through life and integrate these things and learn who you are and learn how you relate to others and how you relate to the world and how it relates to you. Like, how does the world actually respond to you? You know, so important.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah, how does the world respond to you in the frequency that you give out, you know? And you know, you just said it's not about sitting in a temple, though you can do that, and I have done that this last year. I went to a 14-day silent vipassana meditation retreat in Thailand, and it was incredibly difficult, but incredibly beautiful. And I the insights that I got during that time, I was just like, Yeah, I'm gonna float around the world, I get out of it, and was immediately tested, you know, and then you're just like hang it, like what I thought I'd gotten passes, but we're just it's just going around and around, and a symbol that has been very poignant for me lately has been the spiral. And I actually got it tattooed on my wrist because if you look at a spiral, you just see it going around, and it feels like we're going around and repeating the same patterns and attracting the same relationships. But if you kind of turn the spiral, then you'll see that it's actually we're going around to maybe similar things, but from an elevated perspective, and we're ascending and just continuing to break those patterns and learn more lessons so that we can grow and evolve even more.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

And as you go higher, you go deeper into yourself, so you're you're peeling back those layers and you're going deeper and deeper and deeper in understanding who you really are. So, how was that experience for you? And you know, like I heard you say you thought one thing and then you came out and you're immediately tested. I could not imagine doing a 14-day silent retreat. I met you know, in fact, I was talking to a friend of mine. I was like, Oh, we should, because I'm planning for my 50th birthday. So I was like, Oh, maybe we'll go um, you know, do that. And she's like, I would explode. Like, I think I would too.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

You definitely so like I I love to yap, I love to chat. Um, I always have my whole life. And so one of my friends actually on the Camino told me about her experience in Dipasana. And again, just like when I heard about the Camino, I knew instantly that that was something I was going to do because I knew it was going to be incredibly uncomfortable. And I know myself that when I'm put in situations where I'm having to sit with discomfort in a healthy way, you know, not like in a your unsafe way. In a healthy way, those are the moments when I've grown the most. And so when she said that she did this, I was just instantly thinking, yep, I'm gonna go do that. And it was it was by far the most challenging thing I've ever done, but it was by far one of the best things that I've ever done for myself in terms of being able to understand myself and understand where some of my patterns were coming from. And it took it took about eight days for my thinking mind to actually shut up, like eight days of solid meditation were. Right. And until I could get to a point where it was I finally wasn't having this constant internal dialogue, which is a lot. That's a lot of days that you just don't get if you're not putting yourself in that position. But once that fog finally cleared, it was the only word I can use to describe it really is mystical. Like it was fully, it allowed me to clear a lot of things from my childhood that I'd been holding on to. And just random noises would even trigger a memory that I would go deep into and would cry and release and you know, then just feel lighter afterwards. Like I felt like I was actually is expunge the word I want to use, like actually like digging it all out and clearing it. And I would highly recommend that to anyone that could do it. And you know, there are different programs you can do three, seven, ten days, um, whatever suits you. But as I said at the beginning, it's just getting comfortable with the discomfort is a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that's where the opportunity lies. Because quite often when we get uncomfortable, we look to other things to make us comfortable. So, you know, we we try to self-soothe as you know quickly as we can without having so that we don't have to sit in that sense of discomfort and feel like we're suffering.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Yeah, certainly. And as we know, the world is quick to offer us any distraction we want at the tip of our fingers, and we have to intentionally do that self-soothing, and we have to want to put in the work to do that. It's really uncomfortable, but who you meet on the other side of that, the version of yourself that can sit in that discomfort is just waiting for you. And it's really it's a magical place to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

It's the those two images of of walking and moving through that grief and then coming and sitting with it. It's so from a health perspective, it's so cathartic to be able to move through something, particularly when we're in a period of difficulty or challenge in our life. The best thing we can do is move. Right? Walk through it. The only way to get through it is to go through it. So go through it. And you know, the the idea of sitting with yourself in that discomfort after after you've gone through it and you've had some time to process and integrate, and then sitting and then really kind of moving into yourself, that is just so powerful.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Most definitely. I love what you said about moving through it and just like the Camino 2. It's just one step in front of the other, and that's all that you can do. You don't know what's gonna happen along those steps, but what you can do is just keep going forward and taking one step and taking another step.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

You've already said that your spiritual journey continues, so it didn't just stop when you reached the cathedral. It's a part of you, it's a part of your life, so it continues and it's with you now. I'm interested when you're sitting in meditation or as you're moving along the path and taking the step, are you following an experience or are you looking for a structure in a spiritual teaching? Like, where where does this take you?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

That's a great question. I actually wrote a poem that said something similar that I was feeling a bit lost in my spiritual journey, and I said something like I was searching the world for answers, but I didn't know the questions I was asking. And I think we never really come to the end, right? There's so many things where it's about the journey and not the destination, but I don't really think there's an endpoint that I'm looking for. I think I'm doing my best to walk this earth gently and to express myself in new ways all the time, and that includes with creativity, any outlet that may be with my relationships. And I think when you get to the end, when I get to the end of my life, I want to be at peace knowing that I was doing my best to make the people around me feel loved, to show up for myself, and to just do the best that I can. And I think that if I had to quantify an end goal, that is the one that it would be because I don't really know what it is that I'm looking for exactly to hold in my hands, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

I guess the question is even, do you need a question?

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah, I don't think we I don't think we can know. And I and I think if we did know, life would be profoundly boring. I think I think one thing that I've learned is that we try so hard to feel like we have some sense of control. And this is something I move through every day, right? That your relationship between surrender and control. But if we if we really knew how it was all gonna play out, where would the fun be? You know, what would the well what would the point of life be? You know, we're we're all searching for this thing and we don't really know what it is, and we can't really know what it is until we find it, I think. And that's cool and beautiful and mysterious and terrifying, but we just have to keep learning and keep growing and keep walking in love.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

The journey is a spiritual journey, and it's the journey through life. And so, what do you think life is about?

SPEAKER_02 50:56

I think life is about love, like really love in all forms, in our friendships, in our romantic relationships, in our family with ourselves, and I think that any way that we can embody and express love is the reason that we are here, is to connect and to love, and it's really becoming increasingly more difficult in today's world, and just the fear that is being instilled in us seemingly all the time, and I think that the best way we can counter that is to just be loving, loving toward ourselves and loving toward the world around us.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

And the vibration, you know, the vibration of love is very different to the vibration of fear. And I think there's a lot certainly in the world around us that can shift that vibration, even if we intend to hold the vibration of love. Most definitely. Yeah. What you've described as that coming back to that place within you and coming back to that sense of love, to me, just shows the resilience that those kind types of experiences build in us, that we know that we have this in us, and whatever's going on on the outside, we can reach into that.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah, we can tap into that at any point. And when we're standing in line at the supermarket and we're feeling frustrated, you know, just take a moment, take a breath, and reconnect with a sense of peace, I think.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

So, Ali, what is the main message that you want the person listening today to take home with them or to take onto their journey?

SPEAKER_02 53:01

Give yourself grace. The journey is not easy, it's very fun, it's very not fun. It's full of, you know, it's full of dichotomy. Is that the word I want to use? It's it's but it's so worth it. And I think the the main thing that you could do if you're just starting out on a spiritual journey is to just trust yourself and to be kind to yourself. I think that's the simplest way that I can put any of this, is to just get comfortable being uncomfortable as well, because there'll be plenty of moments of that. Integration is one of the most important things because you can learn all these things, but until you actually embody it, until you actually live it, it it's useless.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yeah, like if you're doing this, how is it actually gonna change your life? And are you willing for your life to be changed?

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Oh, I love that. Are you willing for your life to change? Because when I first started the Camino, I wasn't I wasn't willing. I was still trying to convince myself that my life was gonna be the same on the other side, even though I knew full well that it was not. Are you willing to let it change? Because you know that it's gonna change for the better, even if you can't see it yet.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

And that idea of you know, the the question, you don't need to be able to see it, you just need to trust.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah. One set in front of the other.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Oh, I'm so honored to be talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Seriously. Seriously, Melissa. This has been wonderful. This has been really, really wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Live Differently is made on Unceded Warundry Land in Melbourne, Australia. It's an independent production of the Seven Generations project, founded and led by its host. Live Differently is possible because of our listening community. My thanks to all who listen and give by sharing and supporting the show. All right, one more thing. The information shared in this podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed are based on personal experience, research, and perspectives in the area of health, spirituality, and alternative living. This podcast does not provide medical, mental health, or professional advice, and nothing discussed should be used as a substitute for consultation with a qualified healthcare or licensed professional. Health concerns or are considering making changes in your life or wellness routine. Please seek guidance from a licensed healthcare professional or local provider or local professional who can address your individual needs. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that you are responsible for your own health decisions and well being. Awesome. I'll see you next time.