Season 3 | Bonus Episode 11 | Find Your Voice: Speaking with Confidence and Conviction

In this bonus Season 3 episode of Fempire Rising, host Trudy Heins interviews Erin Daldry of A Simpler Life about public speaking, confidence, and communicating with impact. The episode opens with a welcome and acknowledgement of Te Āti Awa.

Erin shares her unique and varied career journey, from banking trainer and air traffic controller to veterinarian, and explains how those experiences shaped her approach to communication. She discusses the importance of clarity and delivering messages in a way that can be easily received and understood by an audience.

Together, Trudy and Erin explore why so many women fear public speaking, including the role of our fight-or-flight response, perfectionism, people-pleasing, and the fear of being judged or challenged.

Erin shares practical strategies to help business owners become more confident and effective communicators, including starting with the end in mind, focusing on one clear message, establishing credibility through introductions, using strong hooks and calls to action, and applying the principles of primacy and recency to make presentations more memorable.

The conversation also covers audience engagement, managing interruptions, breaking longer presentations into smaller segments, improving body language and online presence, and using recording and self-review as tools for growth. Erin highlights the importance of reflecting against objectives, allowing realistic timeframes for improvement, and finding a way to do business that aligns with your strengths and values.

This is an episode you won't want to miss if you have a presentation, networking event, workshop, or speaking engagement coming up and want practical tips to help you communicate with greater confidence, clarity, and conviction.

01:10 Meet Erin Daldry

03:29 Erin’s Unusual Career Path

04:06 Banking to Speaking Confidence

07:40 Why Speaking Feels Unsafe

09:29 Reframing Self Criticism

10:47 Clarity Makes Messages Land

13:36 Stop Waffling Find The Point

15:43 Quick Confidence Prep Tips

17:44 Ditch The Naked Audience Myth

19:47 Fear Of Being Called Out

20:47 Handling Interruptions And Hecklers

23:05 Presentation Formula Basics

24:09 Credibility Through Introductions

24:46 Start With The End

25:16 Hooks And Audience Attention

27:13 Confidence Changes Business

28:53 Assertive Not Aggressive

29:56 Zoom Engagement Tips

31:46 Facial Expressions And Feedback

35:39 Beating Perfectionism

37:29 Sustainable Business Mindset

40:36 Curse Of Knowledge Mistakes

41:55 Reflection Builds Traction

42:29 Doing Business Your Way

44:34 Future Of Women In Business

46:26 Final Thanks And Wrap Up

Visit The FEMPIRE Website

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Connect with Erin Daldry LinkedIn here, if you would like to check out some speaking tips click here, and if you're interested in working with Erin on your public speaking click here 

Click here to join the FEMPIRE Academy and use the code RISING for 25% off!

Click here to register for our next FEMPIRE Masterclass for practical strategies to gain clarity and take focused action in your business

Transcript

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ERIN

Grab them with something.

"As I descended from 10,000 feet without my parachute..."

They'll be listening.

TRUDY

The hook.

ERIN

Yeah.

And then wrap it round to the end.

What's your call to action that you want them to go away and do?

If you've got a really long presentation, take advantage of that.

It's called the law of primacy and recency, that you remember the thing you heard first and you remember the thing you heard last.

TRUDY

Welcome to Fempire Rising, the podcast for women who are serious about building strong, profitable, sustainable businesses.

I'm your host, Trudy Heins, the CEO of Fempire, business coach and mentor.

And here we are in season three.

This season, we are bringing you the women behind the infrastructure of business, the experts in marketing, finance, systems, strategy, visibility and design who help businesses grow properly.

Because building a business takes more than passion.

It takes structure, it takes smart decisions, and it takes the right support around you.

So if you're ready to think bigger, operate better and build a business with real substance behind it, you're in the right place.

Let's get into today's episode.

Today's guest is Erin Daldry.

She owns a business called A Simpler Life, which is a public speaking and confidence coaching business.

She helps women find their voice and communicate with greater clarity, presence and impact.

Erin has a varied and fascinating career journey that we've talked about off mic, and those experiences have shaped the work she does today, helping women speak up with confidence, articulate their value and show up more powerfully in business and leadership.

Now, this is episode 11 of season three, and as you know, we usually only have 10.

But I felt that Erin's voice and the information that she could provide to our listeners certainly warranted a bonus episode in this season.

One of the biggest challenges many women face in business is not a lack of expertise, it's a lack of confidence in how they communicate that expertise.

Whether it's speaking on stage, pitching to clients, setting boundaries, leading a team or simply backing themselves in a room.

And particularly online, given the fact that many of our meetings are done in this way.

Communication, as I'm sure Erin will tell us, plays a critical role in how we are perceived and how we lead.

In this episode, we explore what it really means to find your voice as a CEO, why so many women hold themselves back, and how greater confidence and self-expression can transform the way they lead and grow their businesses.

So please join me in welcoming Erin.

ERIN

Thanks, Trudy.

I love the fact that you've said, "Please join me in welcoming," because so many people go, "I would like to welcome."

TRUDY

Now I know, Erin, one of the things that we also talked about off mic, and given the fact that you are one of our wonderful New Zealand guests, is that you would like to do a Welcome to Country.

So please take it away.

[Welcome to Country not captured in source transcript.]

TRUDY

Fabulous.

Thank you for that.

So before we get into the weeds of things, I always like our guests to talk a little bit about themselves and their journey, particularly because you have had such a varied career path.

So could you give us a little bit of insight into that?

And how did those experiences shape the work that you do today?

ERIN

So, Trudy, I usually tell people to jump into the middle of their stories.

So I'm not going to do the chronological thing.

TRUDY

Okay, go ahead.

ERIN

I'm going to jump into the two things that people usually go, "What?"

And that was that I have done air traffic control, telling pilots where to go, in a good way, usually, and veterinary science.

So I've been an air traffic controller and a vet.

And that usually stuns them.

And I've done various things within veterinary science as well that I may or may not talk about, including working in government and performance auditing.

But the thing that probably started me off on this journey was banking.

I used to work for a New Zealand bank that's gone now, and I ended up in their training department.

And one of the reasons I ended up there was because, and this is going to age me, computers were coming in.

TRUDY

Oh, don't worry.

Ages me as well.

ERIN

And so we were all staring at screens with little flashing dots.

I was working in the business development part, so we were opening accounts for people.

And I had these two people in the department who were older than me, significantly older than me.

I was in my early 20s then.

And they were horrified.

They were scared.

And one in particular was the most elegant woman, and everything else she did, she did beautifully, but she was terrified of this box.

And so I would sit with her and just convince her that we couldn't break it.

And even if we did, I would tell people I broke it.

TRUDY

That's what you want from a team.

ERIN

I think so, especially when you're that terrified.

And I see people do that with AI now.

They're absolutely terrified of the black box.

And so I used to take Carla through sessions on this box, showing her the prompts, showing her what each thing did and explaining the black box behind that to her.

And someone noticed.

And I was shuffled off to the training department, which I absolutely loved.

I wasn't very good at public speaking.

I was very good one-on-one.

So my new boss sent me off on a public speaking course.

And I did a speech.

And now I look back and I'm like, "Oh, it's the most clichéd speech you can ever give."

A speech about giving a speech and how terrified you are.

TRUDY

We all have to start somewhere though, right?

ERIN

You do.

You do.

And you don't know that that's true.

And someone laughed at one of my lines, and my whole perception went from being like the frightened nine-year-old that I used to be in front of school to being like, "Oh, this is a drug I could have."

TRUDY

Isn't it funny?

And there's a couple of things in there.

That aversion to change that so many people have, and often it's the perception of what it's going to be versus the reality.

They're two totally different things.

A lot of people I coach, change is the one thing that really rocks their world.

But often it's never as bad as what they anticipate it's going to be.

ERIN

It's really important to look at the realistic.

What's actually happening?

Not just what's my brain telling me might happen, but what's actually happening?

TRUDY

Yes.

That public speaking part, which is, again, so many professional, wonderful women that are at the height of their career, running successful businesses, that we see within Fempire or that I coach personally.

And often, and I would have to say probably 80 per cent if not more, say, "I am terrified of public speaking."

And heartbreaking stare.

And I will fess up here.

It is certainly one of the things that really, I pause, and if I can avoid it, I will.

ERIN

Oh, Trudy.

TRUDY

So there you go.

An honest disclosure from me, which surprises people because they hear me all the time doing this and I do masterclasses.

But if it is standing up in front of an audience of probably more than 10, I would really have to very seriously work myself into a frenzy.

And I spoke to another lady only the other day.

She told me she had to be medicated to actually speak in front of people.

And that was her job for a large investment company.

ERIN

And you know the good thing about that is that's your brain doing exactly what it's programmed to do.

TRUDY

Okay.

ERIN

Because evolutionarily, the job of your brain is to keep you safe.

And so when you stand up in front of people, if you think about it, you're standing there with nobody around you for support.

Everybody's staring at you.

So evolutionarily, they are the predators and you are lunch.

So normal people go, "I'm out of here, thanks."

And so all your muscles tighten up, you get tunnel vision, your heart starts pounding, your salivary glands dry up, your digestion stops, you might need a nervous pee.

All of that is your body going, "I need to get you out of here because this is not safe."

TRUDY

Yeah.

ERIN

And it's not just that evolutionary response.

There's also that whole thing of, what if I fail and I get ousted from my group?

And evolutionarily, that's disastrous.

Left behind in the snow for the leopards to get.

TRUDY

Well, you're left out of the tribe, right?

ERIN

Yeah.

And evolutionarily, our brain says, "No, you must belong."

And we say, "Okay, instead of risking this, I'm out."

And so I tell people that's one of the basic things.

Your brain is doing what it's programmed to do.

It's weirdos like me who can stand up and do this that probably will be eaten in the end.

TRUDY

But your confidence in being able to do that has come from training.

And as you mentioned to begin with, it wasn't a natural talent or ability that you had.

It was actually working with somebody like yourself, who works in that space, that helps you develop that confidence and probably rewire those unreasonable thoughts that you have.

ERIN

It was also taking notice of what was happening to me.

Other people might have done that and they might have heard that laugh, the thing that basically changed me.

They might have heard that and gone, "Oh, that person's laughing at me."

But I didn't.

I went, "Oh, well, that person laughed with me."

TRUDY

So it's a reframe.

ERIN

Yeah.

Well, it wasn't even a reframe.

It was just openness to allow for good things to happen.

TRUDY

I love that.

That's a really critical thing because we are, as women, tend to be so self-critical.

And that criticism of ourselves will filter into so many different areas.

We're almost hardwired to actually change our belief system.

ERIN

That's a great thing.

We're looking out for it.

We're looking out for threats because we're so used to managing everybody's emotions around us.

We're on.

We're looking for things that might go wrong.

TRUDY

Wow.

That is important to understand.

Okay, so you had that course, went to your training within the bank.

And obviously, again, I come from a banking background, so I know some of the learnings that you can take away from particularly banking and corporate can stand you in great stead for the rest of your professional life.

And there are some amazing things that come out of that.

Where did you then take that skill set?

How did you arrive at where you are now?

ERIN

Well, the things I learned from the parts of my career that I've told you about showed me the importance of clarity and communication.

You have to be really clear with pilots when you're telling them where to go.

You have to be clear with the owners of animals when you are telling them things that are wrong.

TRUDY

Of course.

ERIN

And what to do about them.

And in banking, of course, you have to be really clear because it's money involved.

TRUDY

You can't be open to interpretation, can it?

It's, "This is my message, and I need to deliver it in a way that you're going to receive it."

ERIN

And that part's really important.

Deliver it in a way that you're going to receive it because a lot of people forget that bit.

TRUDY

And I guess that leads me to my next question.

Where do you see women struggle when it comes to that communication style?

Obviously it's about the confidence, but where do they potentially, A, not have the confidence and, B, are they not able to read the room to be able to deliver it in the way that it's needed?

ERIN

So sometimes not being able to read the room is about being too caught up in yourself and your own beliefs.

One place where I see, and it's not just women, but we are talking about women here, when I see them struggling, is that they think that they have to be a certain way, or they think that they are inherently a certain way.

So a good example of that is, "I'm an introvert, so I don't like speaking in public."

Two very different things.

Introversion is just how you get your energy.

So for example, I love doing this, but I know it's going to deplete me.

So after this I'm going to have to go for a swim or find a horse to pat or something like that.

TRUDY

Sure.

ERIN

Because I've worked out what depletes me and what energises me.

It doesn't mean there are things I want to or don't want to do.

It's just I learn to manage my energy.

So people who say, "I'm an introvert, therefore I don't do public speaking," I challenge that.

I might also have people who go, "I do things this way."

So I had someone I was speaking to not too long ago where she said, "My style of public speaking is that I sprinkle ideas around and then people can pick them up if they want."

That won't get heard.

TRUDY

No.

That probably won't get the cut-through, right?

ERIN

Yeah.

And it's great if you're sitting around discussing your PhD.

But if you're not, people just don't have time.

They like their messages clear and concise and right in front of them.

TRUDY

It's very similar to any sort of marketing that you do as well.

And let's face it, a lot of public speaking is about marketing yourself and your credibility and what solutions you bring to the table.

So if you aren't clear, and I often say to the ladies that we work with, you need to make your message really clear and really simple so that there is absolutely no doubt in what it is you're trying to communicate.

And I'm assuming that's a very similar ideal.

ERIN

It is.

And I'll make a generalisation here.

I see that women usually, often, have a web-like brain where we've got a lot of different things going on in our brain and they are linked.

Connections go all over the place.

Blokes tend to be slightly more linear, and that makes it easier for them to present a simple idea.

You might be pulling from lots of different things.

And so I get a lot of women say to me, "How do I stop waffling?"

And that's around knowing what you want to say.

In writing, it's called killing your darlings.

You might throw down everything you know about something, and then you're going to have to extract some of those things because they don't fit with what you want to talk about.

TRUDY

Okay.

So your advice there is, you've got a presentation to do.

It's about keeping it very clear on what your messaging is and quite succinct and very focused on the point.

ERIN

Yeah.

I write the point out on a Post-it note.

TRUDY

Okay.

ERIN

I stick it in the middle of something.

So that's my point, and I'll make that in a couple of sentences.

And depending on the length of my presentation, everything has to come back to that point.

And that enables me to weed out the things that don't.

TRUDY

Great.

And I think that is critical.

It's almost about what you include versus what you weed out, isn't it?

Because a lot of those things that you weed out, whilst you might think they're super important, are quite peripheral.

ERIN

And even if they're not peripheral, you've decided that you want to focus your presentation on this certain thing.

And you can say to people, "There's a lot more I can say. Pay me to come back again. I'll say them."

TRUDY

And that's essentially what most public speaking is about, showing your expertise but leaving them wanting more so that they will engage you or they will engage your company, or whatever the case may be.

It's a bit like we talk about your elevator pitch, your audio logo, as we like to call it.

Similar sort of result that you're looking for is, "Tell me more."

ERIN

Yeah.

TRUDY

But tell me more, not in this presentation.

Offline, one-on-one.

ERIN

Yep.

But you also make sure that you give them what they've asked for.

It's just that you happen to know a truckload more.

TRUDY

Yep.

No, that's perfect.

And so when it comes to confidence, obviously, if you can be really prepared and you can really understand what your message is, clearly that's something that's going to be helpful in that confidence arena.

But if you've got any tips and tricks, there could be a listener here that is scheduled to give a speech next week or give a presentation to a room of people.

What quick confidence tips can you give them?

ERIN

I don't know if this is quick, but knowing your audience is big.

I'm going to talk to a group of accountants in a couple of weeks' time in a very small space.

And some of the questions I've asked are, "Is there anybody who's neurodiverse in your group?"

"Is there anybody who would be happy for me to bring them up on stage to try a few things out?"

And when you're working closely with your audience, those kinds of questions you would ask when you're putting your proposal together.

It might be that you are about to stand up in front of an audience where you're not the only presenter and you might not be able to get a good handle on who's in your audience.

Say you're at a conference or something like that.

What I would suggest that you do then is you attend some sessions beforehand.

TRUDY

So that you're going to read the room.

ERIN

Read the room.

See what type of people are asking questions.

What type of questions are they asking?

Are there people in there who are disengaged because they can't see?

For example, if I'm going to go and work in a relatively big space, I will always go and stand in strategic places in the audience to make sure people can see me.

I test out whether they can hear me.

I don't want anything as basic as that to get in the way.

How you dress also can help your confidence a lot.

I used to have a pair of boots that I used to win contests in.

And those boots, if I pulled them on, just something happened.

TRUDY

Your lucky boots, your confidence boots.

ERIN

Yeah.

I try not to imbue them with power because then if the heels broke, my whole identity would just be...

But to allow those feelings of, "This thing gives me confidence. I'm going to keep doing it."

TRUDY

Okay.

So let's talk about some of the old myths.

I don't know whether they're old wives' tales or whether they actually work.

Imagining your audience naked.

Focusing on one person in the audience.

Thoughts on all of that?

ERIN

Oh God.

Imagining your audience naked would just take a lot of energy.

TRUDY

No, that's what I always think.

I can't, I don't like to imagine people naked.

So I think that would put me off.

But yeah, you hear it all the time.

ERIN

I don't think I've ever run that by anybody apart from for a laugh because, honestly, you wouldn't want to.

Just don't.

There are other things that you can do that don't take up that amount of energy.

It's better to know your audience, not in that way, and know enough to give you confidence or just be carrying around enough confidence yourself.

I understand why people said that because it makes things slightly ridiculous, but very distracting.

TRUDY

The thing that I now, when I have to, it's often with a lot of decision-making and I say it to my team as well.

The reality of what we do, whilst it's serious in our world and it's important to us and important to what we're doing, we are not conducting heart surgery or any sort of organ transplant.

So if you fluff your lines, if you misspeak, no one's going to die from that mistake.

So really, you need to bring it back to the importance of what it's about.

ERIN

Yeah.

What am I trying to do here?

If I mess up a couple of words, laugh.

TRUDY

It just makes you natural and authentic, which is huge these days.

We're all about authenticity.

ERIN

As long as authenticity doesn't trump knowledge and correctness.

TRUDY

Yes.

ERIN

Because if you're saying something that you think is authentic but actually it's wrong, public speaking really is a fine line of being relaxed enough but being professional enough.

Of being authentic, but also making sure that you're presenting the information.

TRUDY

You need to know your stuff, right?

ERIN

You do.

You really do need to know your stuff.

TRUDY

Okay.

So why do you think so many women do hold back from speaking confidently in business?

ERIN

Because they're afraid of being argued with.

TRUDY

Okay.

Can you expand on that a little?

ERIN

Yeah.

"What if someone says this?"

"What if someone takes me to whatever board rules my profession?"

People are genuinely worried that someone in the audience is going to call them out.

I guess it's a version of imposter syndrome.

And it terrifies people to be held up in front of other people as not knowing your stuff.

TRUDY

Absolutely.

I guess you're standing up there as the expert in the field or the expert on that particular topic.

People have invited you because that's how they perceive you.

And if you then get up, you have that element of embarrassment yourself, of course, which is terrifying.

But then it's the other people who have believed in you.

You feel for them as well.

So how do we overcome that?

Know your stuff clearly.

But the emotional side of that?

ERIN

How do we overcome that?

Well, first of all, many women are too nice.

Someone interrupts, they'll stop.

And they'll be defensive.

They'll take criticism personally or they'll take questions personally.

Remember, the ideas aren't your identity.

You can help yourself.

So you can set yourself up at the beginning by telling people if there are any ambiguities or if you're in a space of uncertainty.

You can also set yourself up to say questions will go at the end.

And so then if somebody interrupts you, you can go, "Ah, I hear you. But remember, questions are at the end. Let's keep track of that one."

TRUDY

So controlling the room.

ERIN

You control the room.

Get them to keep track of their question.

Don't you worry about it because they'll ask it again if they need to.

But also establish your credibility at the beginning.

Qualifications, experience, any notable achievements that the audience will recognise.

But be clear about your sources as well.

What's in the literature, or whatever your area of expertise, where the expertise sits, and what is your personal experience.

Because lots of us bring stories from personal experience.

But if we're clear about what's what and they're arguing about your stories, they can't really argue about your experience.

TRUDY

No, that's right.

ERIN

But if they're arguing about the literature, then they might have a point.

But if you get up at the beginning and say, "This is a space of ambiguity or uncertainty. There might be other things," be curious about questions that people ask.

Leave them until the end, but be curious about them.

Don't be defensive.

And decide how you'll deal with dickheads.

Because you will, just occasionally.

They're always there.

Less than you think though, because most people don't want to be a dickhead.

But you'll get the person who wants to appear as though they know more than you.

You'll get the person who just wants to tell their story.

And your fallback can be, and it's not really even a fallback, it's just a statement, "People have come to listen to my point of view. I've been paid to bring my point of view. So let's move on with that."

TRUDY

Okay.

Nice shutdown.

ERIN

Yeah.

And I don't know if I'd think of it as a shutdown.

It's just a way to...

TRUDY

A polite shutdown.

ERIN

It's prioritising your audience.

TRUDY

Yep.

No, and that's true as well.

And I find that yes, there are people that like the sound of their own voice.

And ultimately, you're right, they're not the focus of the day or the presentation.

So one thing that you spoke about and you alluded to is the structure of a presentation.

Start with your credibility, end with questions.

Do you have a formula that you think is a good basis, at least, to be able to pull together a presentation?

Before we jump back in, if you know you need more support in your business, but you are not ready to commit to one-on-one coaching, the Fempire Academy is your next step.

This is our stepping-stone program for women who know they need more guidance, more structure and better support as they grow.

Inside, you'll have access to thousands of dollars' worth of business training, a monthly Q&A session with one of our coaches, and our Sisterhood Facebook group, where we share exclusive content, insight and support for women building serious businesses.

And because you're a podcast listener, you can join with 25 per cent off using the code RISING.

You'll find the link in the show notes.

Now let's get back to the episode.

ERIN

To pull together one, let me just talk about what you said about starting with your credibility.

I would actually outsource that to the introducer.

TRUDY

Sure.

Okay.

ERIN

So you can gain a good couple of minutes in a presentation by writing your own introduction for your introducer.

All of your credibility stuff in there.

TRUDY

Because that intro.

ERIN

Yeah.

That enables you to jump straight in rather than doing that chronological thing that I talked about when you asked me about my company.

TRUDY

Absolutely.

ERIN

It's like, I don't want to know that you were born in a small town in Mid-Canterbury, blah, blah, blah.

I want to know what happened when you fell out of the plane.

TRUDY

Yeah.

I want the highlights, or the lowlights in that case.

ERIN

I want the engagement.

So when you're putting together a presentation, you need to know that message I talked about, that middle Post-it note.

Start at the end.

I think Stephen Covey said, "Start with the end in mind."

What is it that you want your audience to get out of this?

So you start with that.

That's often the thing you put in the middle.

And then you build your presentation around that with your main points and then any supplementary points, including anything you might need diagrams for or state changes you might want in the audience.

And it's only really at the end of your process that you start your beginning, where you go, "How am I going to grab this audience?"

Your beginning and ending of your presentation are the parts where people are listening to you most.

As soon as you start saying, "In summary," they'll go, "Oh, better listen to this."

TRUDY

Yeah.

Finishing up.

ERIN

But they're also listening right at the very beginning when you grab them.

And that's why I get people not to stand up and go, especially if you've been introduced, "Oh hi, I'm Erin Daldry, and I'm really pleased to be here. And I'm really grateful for you coming along."

And then people sometimes go, "I'm just winging this. I haven't really prepared anything."

I just want to scratch that out because that's really rude to your audience.

But grab them with something.

"As I descended from 10,000 feet without my parachute..."

They'll be listening.

TRUDY

The hook.

ERIN

Yeah.

And then wrap it around to the end.

What's your call to action that you want them to go away and do?

If you've got a really long presentation, take advantage of that.

It's called the law of primacy and recency, that you remember the thing you heard first and you remember the thing you heard last.

If you've got an hour-long presentation, break it up.

You've got lots of beginnings and endings.

And you have state changes between, where you might ask people questions, you might get them to talk to each other, you might need to stand up and stretch.

TRUDY

And I think that is probably going to be our takeout from the episode, actually understanding how best to structure it.

You are engaging your audience right from the beginning.

You don't want to get them at the end.

You don't want to get them midway.

You want them to be listening to you and your story or your wealth of knowledge all the way through.

ERIN

People don't realise how much effect they can have or how much power they've got over how their presentation goes.

It's not just a case of standing up there and blaring for an hour.

It's like, really make this thing work.

TRUDY

Yeah.

Take them on a journey.

Okay, so when a woman changes, she comes to you, her confidence is probably not where it should be.

She doesn't really understand how best to structure her presentation.

When you see that shift, how does that change her business?

And how does that change then the opportunities that she will take on, whether that be for speaking, being paid to speak?

How does that impact a woman's life when she works on this skill and improves it and feels more confident doing it?

ERIN

She wastes less time worrying about being perfect and people-pleasing.

She knows more about what it is she wants to get out of this skill.

She has measures, objective measures, she can measure herself against.

She knew where she was going and she took them with her.

TRUDY

And I think that's an important message there, is that business has changed somewhat from the days of COVID.

There was a lot of fluff and there was a lot of needing that connection.

And I found women in business, particularly, there has been an evolution of, cut the fluff, we're here to do business.

Even in the networking groups that I am involved in.

It is, dare I say it, we are doing business not in a masculine way, but we are taking some of the cues from that.

And I can see that this is one of the other things that is going to enhance how we do business in a more direct, succinct and profitable way.

ERIN

And it doesn't mean that you have to be ballsy.

Two women this week have brought me the word authoritative, but they mean it in a kind of pointing-my-finger-at-you way.

TRUDY

Oh no.

ERIN

You don't actually need to be.

If you've got confidence, that's much more attractive to people.

TRUDY

And it's the old aggressive versus assertive, isn't it?

That message of, you don't have to be aggressive.

You just need to be quite assertive in your point and be able to communicate that very well.

ERIN

We often go too far either way.

We'll either be too aggressive or we'll be too nice.

And I'm putting nice in air quotes there.

TRUDY

Sure.

ERIN

It's not actually nice.

Really try and make the distinction between nice and kind with people.

Kind is you have their best interest at heart.

But nice is you're in their business.

You don't have to worry about being nice.

We've been told we need to be nice for a long time.

TRUDY

I think absolutely that is very much a learned behaviour.

ERIN

Yeah.

But we can easily be kind.

TRUDY

Great.

And I love that distinction.

Okay, so one of the things that we were talking off mic about was these sorts of meetings where people are doing lots of Zoom meetings, and you gave me some tips in relation to that engagement.

Can you give our listeners some tips there?

ERIN

Okay.

So one of the things we were talking about was, and one of the questions I get asked is, "How can I keep engaged with a screen?"

Especially if it's just a webinar, there's just me, or lots of people are showing up and they've turned their cameras off.

TRUDY

Which happens a lot, yes.

ERIN

Ask people to turn their cameras on, but be aware that there are some people, and particularly some neurodiverse people, for whom that is horrible.

So tell people how to manage that.

They can leave their camera on, but they don't have to be looking at themselves.

So there's a toggle for that.

So allow people to do that.

But for everyone else, just say to them, "In order for this to be more engaging, I love to see your faces."

Then if you're doing something by yourself and there's just you in the screen and you're feeling like, "People will know I'm just in this empty room staring at nothing," put something engaging behind your camera.

And it might be something live.

So it might be one of your kids or your dog.

Although dogs are a little bit unpredictable.

Or a cardboard cut-out.

A picture you like.

You mentioned that you have another screen behind yourself.

TRUDY

I do.

ERIN

Put a lovely picture behind that.

Something that will engage you.

Try different things.

See what's most engaging because you want that warmth to come through when you're online.

TRUDY

Absolutely.

And I think that it is one of those things that, particularly when we record lots of training videos, to have that engagement.

You don't often think about that.

You just are so involved in what you're doing.

And one of the tips that you also said is, watch it back.

Get a full understanding of how you engage and what your facial expressions are.

So talk about facial expressions because I find that fascinating.

ERIN

Oh, we read each other so much.

Facial expressions are part of your body language, which is part of how people are judging you.

People judge you really quickly, sometimes even before you open your mouth.

And they are watching your body language.

And facial expressions are one of those things.

And a lot of people don't know what they look like.

A lot of people will turn themselves off on camera.

They won't allow themselves to be recorded.

Even if they are recorded, they won't watch it.

It's massive.

You need to see yourself.

I had a nervous tic where I would put, my hair was a bit shorter, and I'd put my hair behind my ear all the time.

So I was constantly doing this.

And for the listeners, I'm putting my hair behind my ears.

I didn't know that until someone said that to me and I got them to record me.

And so I could see the vast amount of time I was doing this thing, which is actually a soothing behaviour because you're making contact with yourself to make sure you're still there.

TRUDY

And I suppose, if you needed that, you could do that with your hands or there could be other ways of self-soothing.

It's interesting because we talk to women that we're coaching about being visible online and showing up in their socials, recording reels, doing the...

And it is such a huge thing for them to overcome to actually do that.

"I don't want to watch myself."

"Oh my God, I don't want to be on video."

So is there anything that you can give them to help them overcome that?

I just wish people could see you asking that question.

I know, I know.

You can see my frustration because my hands are moving.

ERIN

There is.

Find an objective measure of what you're trying to do.

Okay, so in this recording, I am trying to notice my, for example, verbal fillers.

And that's all I'm going to concentrate on.

So you have an objective that you've set before you even record.

You record, and then you restrict yourself to just looking at those things.

On top of that though, what you need to do is you need to find good as well as find improvement.

And that's the key to it.

Because your inner mean girl will go, "Oh my God, did you see what you were wearing?"

"And that double chin."

"Oh, don't look down at the camera like that."

"Oh, do you really need to wear those glasses?"

She'll have a field day with you.

But if you send her on a mission to find some good stuff as well, then she might.

But often you are so caught up in that harsh inner voice that you do need someone to take you through that first recording and notice what you're not noticing.

And I'm really, really good at that.

TRUDY

Fabulous.

I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

ERIN

It is a good thing.

TRUDY

But I think the other thing that I always like to say is aim for completion, not necessarily perfection all the time.

Because not every day can we show up perfect.

Well, very rarely would we show up what we would consider to be perfect.

But often our perception of how we show up versus our audience's perception of how we show up are two totally different things.

And potentially, as you said, you need to ask either a coach or just somebody who is going to be honest with you to view it and give some well-meaning feedback.

ERIN

Give some structured feedback and constructive feedback.

So you need to give them your objective at the beginning as well and say, "This is what I'm trying to do here. Did I do it?"

Or an even better one is to say to them, "What did you think my message was?"

Not, "Here is my message. Did I do it?"

But, "What did you think my message was?"

TRUDY

I think that's a great one.

ERIN

Perfectionism.

You're talking about perfectionism.

Perfectionism will kill you.

It really will.

So what I get people to do is when they say, "I need this to be perfect," I get them to write down what perfectionism is.

What's the standard we are meeting?

Only one person has ever been able to do that for me in the public speaking arena.

And she said to me, "I need a standing ovation."

TRUDY

And I'm like, "You go, girl."

Yeah, absolutely.

Wouldn't that be fabulous?

ERIN

So what we did then was we wrote down, how much control did she have over a standing ovation?

And then you work on the bits you can control once you realise that actually you can't control whether some guy has just broken up with his wife.

TRUDY

That's right.

Or somebody just doesn't like your point of view and doesn't stand up.

That is 100 per cent that.

What can I control?

What can't I control?

That is threaded through business everywhere.

Well, and through life.

Sometimes you just need to let things go because you have absolutely no control over them.

So great advice.

ERIN

Here's a third one that goes in between those two.

What can I control?

What can't I control?

And what will time tell?

What do I just need to wait for?

TRUDY

Sure.

And time is, as we know, certainly the great truth teller.

What advice would you give to a woman who knows she has something valuable to say but still doubts whether her voice matters?

ERIN

Why is she talking?

What's driving what she's saying?

So if she's been asked to come along and give a presentation, one of the questions that I ask is, "Why have you asked me?"

Then the person who's asked you to come along will tell you, "I've seen you do this," or, "I think you're able to do this."

And then you can say yes or no.

"I am able to do that," or, "I'm not."

If she's struggling as to why her voice doesn't matter, she's going to need to look more deeply into what's getting in her way.

TRUDY

All right.

So much of business growth comes down to how we clearly communicate, not just with others, but with ourselves.

And our conversation has demonstrated that time and time again today.

That leads beautifully into some broader reflections on building a sustainable business that we ask in season three.

From your perspective, what is one thing women in business need to understand earlier if they want to build something strong and sustainable?

ERIN

Okay.

So the first thing I thought of when I knew about this question was that you need to be realistic about the time that things take.

You can't half-ass things if you want something sustainable.

Things will take time.

But I also want to say to women, don't beat yourself with the stick of, "Everybody knows more than I do."

Because right at the very beginning, everybody will know more than you do, but they won't always know the right things that are going to be right for you.

And beginner energy is really precious.

The things that you don't know can be as helpful as the things you do know.

So for example, I don't think I mentioned that I'm a Toastmaster.

And evaluation is a massive part of public speaking improvement.

I always get beginners in a club to evaluate me if I possibly can because they haven't been put into the Toastmasters box.

So they come from a different perspective.

They are more likely to say to me, "Oh, if you gave this presentation to me at work, I would want you to try this, this and this."

And I give them full permission to do that.

I'll go to them beforehand and say, "Please, please don't take the low-hanging fruit. Pretend you're actually paying me for this presentation."

So that beginner energy is really precious because it leads you to question some things.

So just because you think that people know more than you do, you are in a position where you can probably ask better questions.

TRUDY

Do you feel that we're in this age of very quick information as opposed to what we grew up with?

News probably at six o'clock.

That's kind of it.

Do you think presentation requirements and styles have had to adapt for that?

Because it's a very short information cycle.

ERIN

Yeah, it is.

And people have a very short attention span.

TRUDY

Yes.

ERIN

Which is one of the reasons I'll go back to when I was telling you about running a longer presentation.

You have to keep changing people's states so that they can stay engaged.

But people's attention spans are horrifyingly short now.

TRUDY

And it's a conversation that I have all the time about.

I used to be able to sit and read a book for hours and hours.

Now I read it on my iPad or on my Kindle, and I'm back and forth and in emails and in social media.

And so I see it myself and get quite frustrated.

So I think we need to understand our audience is probably on the same line as what we are.

ERIN

You really need to hook into what they are wanting to get out of your presentation because I do see a lot of people think about what they can give without thinking about what their audience actually needs.

TRUDY

And that helps them stay more engaged.

It's that why.

It's a common thing across all of our communication styles.

So in your field, what is one mistake you see business owners make time and time again?

ERIN

So I've referred a little bit to that already, and I call it the curse of knowledge.

Not putting yourself into your audience's shoes.

So what do they already know?

Try to meet your audience where they are.

A little bit similar, like I was saying to you, I go out and stand in the audience and make sure they can see me and they can hear me.

So if I'm presenting to a place like tech people, I might be able to use a lot more jargon than I can perhaps if I'm presenting to a mixed audience.

And your audience will thank you for that if it's good for them.

Because imagine you go into a place where they use jargon all the time and you don't use it.

You're taking up a lot more of their time explaining concepts.

TRUDY

It's respect for your audience, isn't it?

ERIN

Respect for who they are and meeting them where they are.

And so you have to realise where they are.

I can't count the number of times I've seen somebody put a graph up and say blah, blah, blah about the graph, without me even being able to see what's on the axis of the graph.

TRUDY

Okay.

How do I read that?

ERIN

Well, that's what you say.

You say, "Okay, here's a graph of, for example, profit and loss over time. Here's what the x-axis is. Here's what's on the y-axis. And see, you'll see this trend."

And so you ground yourself with the person first, and then you take them on the journey.

TRUDY

On the journey.

Okay.

What separates the women who build lasting businesses from those who struggle to gain traction?

ERIN

All right.

So we've talked about this a little bit already.

Reflection and evaluation against objectives.

So setting yourself an objective that you know will move your business along.

And then not just going, "Oh, did I tick that off my to-do list?"

But going, "What did I want to achieve?"

"How did it go?"

"What should I keep about the way I did it?"

"And what can I improve?"

TRUDY

The analysis of it.

ERIN

Yeah.

And you don't have to overanalyse.

It's the important things, the linchpins of your business, that you do want to reflect on.

TRUDY

What is one decision or shift that had the biggest impact on your own business journey?

ERIN

When I very, very first decided that I wanted to teach public speaking, I asked for a group of women to come along for a very short period of time.

I did two sessions per week and I did it for what we call a koha, so for a donation.

I wanted to figure out what did people see was the worth of this, and I also wanted them to give me feedback.

But I said to them, "The koha doesn't have to be money, and it doesn't have to be to me, but you have to do your final speech about it, about why you've done what you've done."

And so I got some really lovely ones.

I got one woman who, it took her two years to pay, and I'm putting that in air quotes, pay this debt.

Because what her take on it was, was she wanted to raise money for mental health because one of her close relatives had mental health issues.

We were still in the throes of COVID.

And the way that she was going to do that was she was going to do a half marathon.

TRUDY

Oh, okay.

ERIN

I still get emotional thinking about this because COVID closed things down, and so it took two years for her to do that.

And she ran past my window when she did it.

But the fact that I really thought outside the box, I didn't make it all about me, grounded me in the fact that I don't have to ask permission to do things differently.

I did that the way I thought it would work well.

It did work well.

And it's just enabled me to think more outside the box.

And that really changes my approach to business.

TRUDY

That is such a wonderful point.

And I really want people to take that in and think about within their business.

Often we feel constrained by the parameters or potentially legacies that we've learnt or have come along with a business.

And it is okay.

It is your business, and it's okay to do business in your way.

And often that will be the uniqueness that actually will resonate with so many people because you are not just following this prescribed formula.

So such an important point.

Thank you for sharing that.

When you look at the future of women in business, what excites you the most?

ERIN

Ooh, what excites me?

Gosh, business can be difficult at the moment, can't it?

Especially for women.

What gives me hope and excites me is that we are starting to stick up for ourselves.

And I think we're finding, we're certainly finding our voice, that's for sure.

We are.

And we're happy to say, "These things don't work for us."

But we're also starting to get happier about challenging each other.

And I'll come back again to the kind versus nice.

Women are used to policing, looking after other people's emotional states, making people feel comfortable.

TRUDY

Yes.

ERIN

And that's nice, but it's not kind because it doesn't move people along.

So I'm really enjoying seeing where women are challenging each other to achieve more and to grow more than they think they can.

TRUDY

Being those cheerleaders rather than enablers, I think.

Actually celebrating when women do things differently and not being so critical and judgemental.

I see that time and time again.

And social media, I believe, has some really not great points, but that is one of the things that I find is positive.

There are a lot of women that may be isolated, maybe stay-at-home mums, but still running a great and very successful business.

But having just the support of a community that are cheering them on.

ERIN

And not just cheering them on, but challenging them as well.

TRUDY

Yeah.

ERIN

It's the whole keep and improve thing that I've been talking about all the way through.

It's, "I love this about what you do. Have you thought about this as well?"

Because we'll often get very comfortable about what we do.

And I really want people to come and say to me, "Hey, what if you try this?"

Or, "I want you to speak on a bigger stage. What are you going to do?"

Great.

I want challenge.

TRUDY

Erin, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your insights on confidence, communication and particularly finding your voice as a CEO in your own business.

This has been such a valuable conversation.

And as I said, it was one that I felt we needed to have as a bonus episode because I hear it time and time again, how fearful women are in speaking with their voice and speaking in public.

So it is such an important reminder that often the biggest shift in business happens when we learn to trust our own voice and communicate with clarity and conviction.

Thank you for your time.

ERIN

You are very welcome.

Pleasure.

TRUDY

Now, we will also have all of Erin's contact details in our show notes.

So if you would like to reach out to her, and I'm sure that just because she's in New Zealand, our Australian and global ladies that listen to us, she would be more than happy to work with you.

Because finding that voice and being able to stand up and command an audience is a particular skill that needs a particular coach for that.

Thank you again.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

ERIN

Thanks, Trudy.

TRUDY

Thanks for being here for another episode of Fempire Rising.

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